by call the regular meeting of October 8th, Mill Valley Planning Commission to order. We'll do roll call to start. Fellow commissioners, if you don't unmute your mics. Commissioner Mackress. Yep. Commissioner Yolas. Here. Commissioner Hilda-Bran. Here. Commissioner Cerengel. Here. Chair Skow's here. Everyone's in attendance. At the beginning of the meeting, we have public open time. This is opportunity for any member of the public to come on up to the microphone. State your name, your address if you wish, and speak on any topic that is not on tonight's agenda. So this is a time to speak on items that are not on the agenda. Anyone wishing to come up from the public, come on forward now. Not seen anyone, we'll close public open time and I'll call for a motion to approve tonight's agenda. It's all moved. We have a motion from Commissioner McRis. Is there a second? Second. Commissioner Yilla seconds. All in favor? Aye. The agenda is approved, 5-0. First item of the agenda is, and I want to make a note, there was an item before we do the first item. There was an item that was slated for tonight, but as it is noted in the agenda, it's been continued to the October 22nd Plenty Commission. So if you're here tonight for eight row and way, the agenda was updated today, that item has been continued at the request of the applicant to be moved to the next meeting. So we will not be hearing that tonight. Okay, first item is new business. This is a report from staff regarding the Mill Valley Sales Tax Measure on this November 5th, 2024 ballot, and consideration and possible action on the proposed letter of support. Would you like to present on this item? Thank you, Chair and Vice Chair and commissioners. It's so great to be here this evening. We're actually going to start tonight by showing you a little TV movie, which we've made. So without further ado, why don't we just show it and then we're going to provide a little more context and answer any questions that you've got. Hi everybody, my name is Urban Carmel, the mayor of Mill Valley and I'm Todd Kusomano your city manager. Today we want to talk to you about the most important initiative we're undertaking, not just this year but for many years ahead. Today your city is a really great financial and operating physician. Our sales tax and our transit and occupancy tax are among the lowest in the county. Our parks and our field are the envy of our neighbors. Your library was voted the second best small library in America. Last year we reduced over 400 tons of fuel off the hillside oratory reduced fire risk. Pensions are often regarded as a huge financial risk for city yet we've done the math. We can weather the doubling of our pension obligations over the next 10 years and still maintain our level of investment in your community. I can go on and talk about our great initiatives with respect to affordable housing, diversity, equity and inclusiveness, climate action plan, all of which are leading efforts within the county. While all of this is really good news and should be a source of pride for everybody in the community, we face some challenges in the years ahead that require some urgent actions. Led by our public works team, we have been assessing our infrastructure needs for the past three to five years. And what we found is that we need approximately 150 to 180 million dollars in investment over the next 10 to 15 years. And what we found is that we need approximately 150 to 180 million dollars in investment over the next 10 to 15 years. This is twice the amount we have available to us today. Why is it important? Our infrastructure protects the public safety and welfare of our community. When you think about our infrastructure, think about it in three pots. The first is public safety, improvements, the second is deferred maintenance, and the third is community investment. So let's talk about them. So first with safety improvements, it all starts there and this is approximately 50% of our investment needs over the next 10 to 15 years. With climate change in the extreme weather events, it has a major impact on our city. In three specific areas. One, the droughts and hotter periods cause major fires used for our hillsides. In field reduction, in vegetation management is a number one priority for our city. The second is the atmospheric rivers, causing major flooding problems within our city, but also landslides on our hillsides. The third is sea level rise. And the importance of flood mitigation and management to protect our infrastructure not only today, but for the next 100 years. The second investment is related to Ferd Maintenance. The city owns eight civic buildings, and within those buildings, we have years of deferred maintenance. This is approximately 20% of our need. And when you think about deferred maintenance, think about HVAC systems, mold remediation, remodeling for office space, ADA accessible access, foundation issues, roof repairs. We are in need over the next 10 to 15 years to do major investment in all eight civic buildings. The third bucket is community investment. This is approximately 30% of our investment. This is related to the 70 miles of roadway that we have in our city, expanding our sidewalks for pedestrian and bicycle use to make sure that all of our areas within our community are accessible to everyone in our community. It's also related to quality of life, our library, our park and wreck facilities, our playgrounds, our fields. This is what separates our community from all others. And this is something that is a major priority, not only for our community, but your staff. And we're going to work hard to make sure that we preserve that for the next 50 years. We want to develop what we heard from public works and also for a plan for what we should do next. So last July, your city council formed a 15 person citizens advisory panel which comprised of seven women and eight men and they spent four months studying all of these issues. This is some of what we heard. Hello, I'm Jim Perrin. Hello. What's me is Jerry Kail. We're the co-chairs of the committee. I should start by saying the committee was not a rubber stamp committee. We wanted to find out whether the city had legitimate infrastructure needs. As a result of that, we spent many hours reviewing lengthy city reports, outside consultant reports. We met with the city's finance director, we met with the director of public works, we asked him a lot of hard questions, and we got great answers. The result is that the committee then spent eight meetings reviewing all the materials, reviewing the consultant reports, reviewing outside consultant reports, and we concluded that the city's infrastructure needs were legitimate. Actually, the committee unanimously agreed that the city has between $150 and $180 million in critical infrastructure needs. I'm Jerry K. Hill. I was co-chair with him and I was extremely skeptical about this requirement for funding the infrastructure shortfall. I wasn't even aware that there was one, but after spending the time reading many, many reports, and also talking with independent consultants, both from the tax angle and also just how other measures have been done, we think that there is a definite need and we think that the sales tax proposition is the best way to go. Hi I'm Kendra Pollock. After looking at the investment need we then held a meeting over how to fund this. We looked at six different ways. Parcel Tax, bonds, TOT, business license tax, real estate transfer tax, and sales tax. It was an exhaustive review. And hi, I'm Hunter Moore. And the city did a great job about lining the infrastructure needs and the committee at the end of the day looked at all six of those options and thought a bond investment was really not needed. That a parcel tax would not be appealing. The TOT and business tax didn't generate enough income, and so we really only had two options. The transfer tax on the sale of a property, end or a general sales tax. And while there was disagreement among the members as to which of these was preferred, the research clearly showed that voters would prefer a general sales tax. And at the end of the day, that's what's most important, that we generate enough funds to cover the infrastructure needs. The final thing the committee recommended was that there would be guardrails on this measure to protect the taxpayers. The first guard rail is that the money only be spent for actual infrastructure needs. The second guard rail is that there be an oversight committee, independent citizens, oversight committee to review the expenditures and make sure that they are only spent on infrastructure and nothing else. And we did not want this tax to be unending. So we provided for a sunset provision so it will terminate at 10 years. I'm Al Gromet. We also recommended that this tax go to the voters this November. The city has an immediate investment need and we concluded that the time to act is now. I think it's critical that we take care of this deferred maintenance problem, which is very significant. We could let it go, and then in 10 years we're going to have an emergency. We won't have the funds to take care of the problem, and the city could be a disaster. We have prided ourselves over the years in planning ahead, and that's what this project is. Your City Council discussed the recommendations from the panel and that's what this project is. Your City Council discussed the recommendations from the panel and from EMC at Council meetings in December and March. That's why you'll see a ballot initiative in November for 1% sales tax increase. We believe that that will allow us together with our existing source of funding to make the investments that we need to over the next 10 years to improve our infrastructure in the ways that we need to over the next 10 years to improve our infrastructure in the ways that we've described. Over the coming months, more information will be coming out on how we precisely plan to spend our investment strategy. For more information, please go to the website, listen on the screen, or contact myself, or staff, as we look forward to having this conversation with you. We will hold the community form where we can learn more and ask questions. If you're a neighborhood that is interested, we'd be happy to come and visit and present this information to you. We want everybody to be as well informed as possible. Thank you so much for your time today and please share this video widely. Okay, I think you can all agree that that was probably the best video you've ever seen at a planning commission meeting. I didn't have to say that a planning commission meeting, but anyway, I added that provider in there. So a couple of things have happened since we did that video. One, we've gotten a lot of endorsements for our plan. In fact, there was no opposition. So when you do a ballot measure, you write an argument for, and anybody who's against it writes an argument against nobody filed any argument against in fact as far as we're aware Nobody is against this this measure nobody's come forward and said we're against this thing is mounting mounting opposition secondly 11 former mayors endorsed it The coalition of sensible taxpayers which you might know as Cost which is a tax watchdog, actually endorsed our measure. Why did they endorse it? Because it's precise, dealing only with infrastructure. It's got oversight and it's got a 10 year sunset on it. That's why they decided to endorse it. They think it's a model ordinance for how you go about doing a tax revenue initiative in a city. So they wanted to endorse it. The Marin Realtors Association endorsed it and the Mill Valley Chamber of Commerce. The organization that represents all the businesses that you think would be most impacted by the saying, actually, where the first organization to come out and endorse it. So it's gotten a lot of endorsements. The second point I wanted to make is, I don't want you to come across or I don't want you to be left with the impression that we are going to tax payers, take the money in and then spend the money and that's all we're doing. That's actually not what we're doing. So this is a combination of initiatives that we're doing. One, the sales tax will increase our funds that we have available for infrastructure from $6 million per year to $10 million. So we'll add $4 million. But the second thing we're doing is we are rationalizing our operations internally. We are doing the proverbial belt tightening and it's significant. So Todd can talk more in detail about this since he's the person that's actually implementing this but just as an example the fire consolidation will probably save the city on the order of about $300,000 per year. We have other consolidation that we can do within the city combining departments and rationalizing how we do things do things more effectively that could add as much as another $600,000 per year in saving. So we are trying to do everything we can to try to make ends meet and try to do this in the most sensible way. The final point I want to just make is the whole purpose of doing this and as planning commissioners I think you can appreciate this more than anybody, we are literally fixing the roof so that the roof doesn't leak and we have to replace the rafters and get mold and do all the remediation. In other words, a dollar spent today saves us $5 in the future. So that's the purpose of doing this thing. It's to get ahead. It's to play offense. It's to do the things that we need to do to kind of prevent future liability and the liability can be financial and also can be, of course, in the form of human life. So when we talk about safety, one of the things we're talking about is landslide risk. And those of you who have been in Movali a few years will remember in 2005, I believe it was, when the hillside gave way and unfortunately a person lost their life. We also recently had a hillside on Off of Miller Avenue, and you've seen it, right? When you go out on Miller Avenue, right above the Montessori School, previously the mortuary, right? That hillside gave way. So it's preventing things like that from happening. With climate change, we are getting more atmospheric rivers. We're getting more periods where we get multiple rains from stacked on top of each other. And you can see it in the roads. When you see those dashed lines around on the pavement, that shows that the road is actually subsiding. This is something new. This is not something that we've had before. So we have to kind of adapt to our environment and we need to kind of get ahead of the things that are occurring in our environment that cause risk to the city. So those are my comments that I want to make. Did you want to add anything to that? I think you could. Okay. So we'd like to turn over to you guys to ask any questions that you might have. Thank you very much for the video and coming in person to present and answer our questions. Are there any questions that the commission has for mayor and city manager? Commissioner Hillbran. This isn't exactly a question, but I remember having, you brought this up a year or so ago, and the first reaction that I would have had too was all the windfalls from the sales of real estate that had been, you know, the fact that that was the first place you looked, right? And I see from all the staff report, all the cons from doing that. But it's curious that, you know, you look at that, you know, houses that were listed at 1.8 suddenly became 2.4, 2.5 in a sale, and then that becomes the comp then for the whole neighborhood. And it seems like the real estate industry, and we have so many real estate offices around the town, is helping to make housing less affordable by running up the prices. And the fact that there's no way to get any revenue without harming our senior citizens who, as you mentioned in here, are house rich and cash poor. And it's just conceptually the idea of somehow taking from those extreme profits and and leveling things out because the people that are making that additional $500,000 are are doing that based on having been in that community for a long time. So I don't know, I struggle with the fact that they're that that didn't work. But I understand why didn't work. And so that was just one comment. But I get it after reading that. But I wondered, do people, this is my question. Do people really understand that that sales tax is not really going to just apply to purchases that they make in the town of Mill Valley, right? It's not just going to be the local stores. It's going to be when you purchase something, it's based on your residents, and if you purchase it, you know, then there can be some significant things that you purchase that extra 1%. You know, that'll hit people over time. But it's, you know, that's the only way you're really getting that revenue because it can't just be based on going to the coffee shop and some of those other local things. Do you think everybody kind of understands that it's globally, someone buys a car through somewhere right and that sales tax is 9.25, not 8.25? Yeah. I think that's a question that we've gotten about Internet sales and you're right. That does apply to Internet sales as well. So that will definitely impact everything that you buy online that's delivered within the city. Here's the other thing. So first of all, I'll just say that going into this process we had I don't want to say a bias but we were leaning towards doing the transfer tax. We just thought that was a more progressive way of doing it. There are roughly 250 homes and apartments sold every year in Mill Valley so you compare that to you know the 14,000 people that live here. That's a pretty select group and as you say it's a people at the point of liquidity They suddenly have gotten a windfall from selling property. That seems like the right time to sell and a 1% transfer tax 1 it generated more money than a sales tax 2 the average over-ask is 10% so you're basically saying, I'm gonna take 1% of that 10%. So people making a lot of extra money on their sale of the property. So that's why we're kind of leaning in that direction. In order to implement that, you had to do two things. You had to change the legal definition of the city. That's complicated, and then you had to institute this transfer tax, right? So it was complicated. The city of Belvedere also went down this process. They also failed. So we didn't want to go too far down this thing after it pulled poorly and say, we're still going to try to pursue this thing because we think it's the right way to go about doing it. When it pulled poorly, we just said, this is important. We got to get these improvements into the city. So we're going to go, we're going to be a bit expedient, we're going to be a bit practical, we're going to do the thing which is going to kind of generate the revenue that we need to do. That's how we got there. On that, here's the surprising thing that I've learned. So take a wild guess, how much sales tax, total sales tax revenue, sorry, total revenue from retail sales. Do you think there are in a city of Mill Valley? What do you think total retail sales are in the city of Mill Valley? So this is a town of 15,000 people, right? So do them out. How many, you know, what do you think average person, man, woman, and child, you know, spend in a year in Mill Valley? $400 million is our total sales revenue at a gross level in the city of Moveli. So if you do the math, every man, woman and child is spending like $29,000. Every single year. So every man, woman and child is probably not spending $29,000, right? That tells you that a lot of people are coming into town and spending money, right? So, you know, one way of looking at this thing, yes, it hits residents. By the way, it doesn't hit groceries. It doesn't hit certain health care products. So if you're literally living paycheck to paycheck and you're spending your money at the grocery store, it's not impacting you. So because food is not taxed. But we are taxing people that are coming into town that are going to, for example, the corner bar or going to one of the other places in town that are very popular now. So it's equitable in that respect, right? Basically, the people that are using our services, driving on our roads, right, going to our buildings, right? Those are the ones that are going to be paying for the tax as well. You know, the problem with the tax, this is the problem problem with attacks. Somebody's got to pay it. It means you got to choose who's going to pay it, right? So, but somebody at the end of the day has got to pay it. So, we want to be really careful in how we spend this money. We're going to be very precise in how we do this thing. We're going to make sure that it's spent in a way that's going to have the biggest impact. after 10 years, this thing ends no matter what, after 10 years. And a future council, a future city manager, you know, is going to have to come and say, you know what, this was successful, let's continue it, let's sell it to the voters, or you know what, we didn't really succeed. And voters don't want it to continue. And I think that's really important. Hope that that's very important. Great, thank you. Any other questions? Commissioner Macgers? I've got an observation that sort of turns into a question. First of all, you'll learn we have a lot of these here at the planning commission. I remember this from the plan. I'll make it snappy though. I think first of all, you've done a very good job of explaining the need. We obviously need infrastructure to be maintained and the money has to come from somewhere. I personally understand that I do have a concern about the planning commission endorsing something. When we are, first of all, we're political appointees. We're deliberately sheltered from the political process for good reason. That we want to make decisions for the community without thinking, am I going to get reelected and all the sort of pressures that the city council faces all the time. I think it's good to remove the sorts of issues that the Planning Commission has to deal with from those pressures. And so to me it seems entering into the fray on a tax measure like this is in conflict with that intent for the Planning Commission. So I have a hard time not with the measure, you if it just me person I think we're all free to endorse things as individuals but I have a hard time as the institution doing that and I wonder if you have some sure you thought about this yeah so we're going around and we so the city has got six different commissions as you're aware and we've basically done this presentation you know to five I believe, and we've basically done this presentation to five, I believe, right? And we are basically seeking approval and endorsement or not, right, from each one of those. So the planning commission can choose to not endorse this measure. But we wanted to inform everybody the city council unanimously agreed that this was a need and endorsed it and put it forward. And we're asking whether the commissions that we've got in the city also want to do that. And there is a nexus for planning because you are responsible for our built environment and having the structure around your built environment, for example, you're doing housing element and you're going to increase the number of housing units in the city that requires an upgrade in your infrastructure in order to service that. So there's a nexus with what you do, right? It's got relevance to what you're trying to accomplish. And that's true of all of the different commissions that we're talking to. There's a nexus with all of them. So maybe that's a way of thinking about, you know, whether this is appropriate or not. Does it help you achieve what you need to do as a planning commission? Great. Any other questions or comments? Mayor, the same initial? Let me ask a question if I could. Yeah, sure. Commissioner Kelly. Director Kelly, I mean, you can speak to our role with regard to interpreting and legislating on policy matters with respect to the general plan, not just the housing element, kind of in furtherance of Eric's question. So the commission's role is advisory with respect to any kind of legislative Matter before you that say for example a general plan policy Which decision rests with the city council so but there are discretionary items so by and large, the majority of your work program rests with design reviews. And discretionary reviews that are limited to planning commission approval. So part of that is actually under state law. For example, like a rezoning, a general plan amendment are advisory to the council. Council is a legislative body that takes action on land use policy. But day to day discretionary planning and zoning applications essentially rests with the Planning Commission. Appealable to the City Council. so in terms of appeals, the final decision rests with the City Council. So, this, if I may, reminds me quite a bit of a legislative push. There was maybe six, seven, eight years ago for affordable housing, creation of affordable housing trust fund, and how to fund that with the fees. And we were not the body that could enact the legislation the City Council was, but we very strongly deliberated it, created a recommendation, and then sent that up to the City Council that ultimately passed it. And so while the voters would be the legislative actor here. I view our role as being similar and that we are advising by either recommending or not recommending this measure to the voters. Anyone else have any thoughts? I do have a few questions for these folks. You wanna go, come here. First of all, thank you for all your efforts behind this measure. I know it's taken a lot of time and effort to get to this point. And thank you for being proactive. And I totally agree in general with the concept about spending a dollar proactively today. I can save 3, 4, or 5 tomorrow. So thanks. And I know it's in the community's interest that you're doing this work. Just curious, any other state and federal sources available to supplement some of this? Yes, so good question. So we just got, for example, so we are in a, what's called a flood zone, JPA with the county that deals with water coming off the mountain essentially right in the city. And that organization just appropriated to the city over $3 million to deal with some of the issues that we want to deal with with respect to flooding in the city. We just got a 1.2 million dollar grant to study and do engineering on a sea level rise project that we want to enact for the city. Every year we get money from the Transportation Authority of Marin, which is a board that I sit on, that funds our road infrastructure in our city. So there are a number of state, federal and county resources that we tap on a regular basis to get funds to do all of the work that we're doing and we will be aggressive at trying to get more of that. I mean some of this money that I've just mentioned that's new like we have not gotten that money in the last we've gotten that money in the last 12 months we have not gotten that money in the last 10 years've gotten that money in the last 12 months, we have not gotten that money in the last 10 years. So we are aggressively going after every single source of money for this. One thing that you should know, Todd in the video says $150 to $80 million, right? But if you do the math, we're basically going to do $100 million, right? Because that's what you can do over the next 10 years. Maybe we can stretch it with our cost saving to 110, 120 million dollars, right? But we're still gonna be short. So we're gonna have to kind of shake everything to kind of make this thing work over the long term. And I think just the idea when you think about how that $10 million rolls up again, $2 million is after you pay for from the general fund, our services, which are our employees and benefits, right? $2 million has left over annually on average to go towards infrastructure. $2 million from grants and restricted funds like the gas tax and grants a year. And then $2 million approximately from the MST tax, right? That goes primarily to vegetation management, fire safety in our roads. So we're at six. So this will deliver the remaining four. The other piece, as the mayor said, we have $18 million in flood control projects and we have never really had a serious conversation about adaptation. Like once we get everything downstream, if we do it right, on that 18 million number, what do we do? And it hits the arroyo creek, you know, and it goes out. We have to have a plan. And so we were closely with flood zone three. We have $3 million over the next five years. There will be a following $3 million request for the following five years. So that $3 million delivers six projects that go downstream focusing really on the Sikamore area as we go. And then the second piece is the $1.2 million for climate adaptation. To really start to identify three adaptation projects downstream, speaking to King Tides and sea level rise, and bring them to a 30% design. Because then what it's going to happen, it opens up millions of dollars of funding for us to start to. And so that piece will help us engage the community over the next two years, identify three projects that we can come doing agreement on, and then bring them to 30% design. So that's a huge part of what we're doing in the other piece that the mayor mentioned. It's tightening our poach traps so to speak, but really it's pivving, right? What is being asked of us? So especially for this group here, in all of our boards and commissions and staff, what is being asked of us, how do we set the stage for our employees in good times and bad so when you have a fiscal downturn every five to seven years, we're not freezing positions coming out of COVID or back in the 2010s, we still are trying to fill positions on the planning building side across the board. We don't want to do that. What we're doing is we're re-shuffling. When it makes sense to two questions. When you can maintain or improve services over the next decade and on. You can do it more efficiently and save cost. We're going to bring that to council for consideration. We check the box with southern marine fire. It enhanced our services day one and over the long term we saved three to four hundred thousand dollars from last fiscal year to this one. As you start to go out the decade it'll be a seven-figure number of savings and will have improved service. The next piece is admin. So as we start to get retirements over the next couple years we have an opportunity through attrition to merge our human resources, our training, our admin team, our finance team, be more efficient, be better, but actually do it at hundreds of thousands of dollars of savings. We're also doing it with organ ever retirements within SASM and public works operations. You're going to see some merging there. As you start to do the math with each department where we have those opportunities, it is going to open up a fund of about $600,000 to $1 million. And then the question for us is how much of that should go to infrastructure? But how much of that should go back to the departments that need it so we can lean in and really do what's being expected of us from the boards and commissions and staff. And so there's a lot of good work being done and so the difference between us and other cities isn't we can't make payroll, we have a deficit, we need to tax you, we're trying to improve and really solve problems moving forward. Great. Thank you. Also Mayor Cormale, you mentioned an oversight committee in the video or in your comments. Can you tell us how that committee is going to be selected? Who will be on it? Yes. So we have to see if the sales tax passes first, right? And then once hopefully it does, we'll basically set up some guidelines for this Silverside Committee, but ballpark, probably five members, they will probably do four-year terms. We'll have to do it so that they're staggered. You get a variety of people on just like we do for other commissions, so we'll do a selection process. We'll interview people. But we wanted to have teeth. We wanted to have people on there who are going to be financially astute, that are going to be inquisitive and potentially critical, and who are willing to weigh in on the projects that we're funding. So not just what we've done, but also what we're going to be funding. Okay, great. And then the last question, whoever wants to answer. I'm just kind of curious about how you will let out the various scopes of work that are described here. You know, RFQ or P process, whether there's going to be competitive bidding, how do you optimize resources and save as much money as possible while getting all this work? Yeah, so we do this already, right? So all of our road projects are put out to bid, right? We get sealed bids back, we open them up. We choose the best provider, right? So we're just going to be basically continuing that whole process of going out and getting the best provider at the, not necessarily the lowest cost, but certainly competitive that also provides the right service. And there's a grossing general. I know there's so many different scopes of work contemplated here, but how many bids on in general do you end up getting back? On average. Three to seven. You usually have your same three to four players and you'll get some extras. The other thing that we're doing and it's a two-pronged approach. One, we have projects that we've learned when we outsource project management on these projects. We, they're not delivered in the quality that we like it to, write community engagement and how do we do that. And also, on average, it's $200,000 more expensive to contract our project management. And so what we've started to do on the public work side is higher project managers in-house and so we're already staffing up and we also have expertise and accessibility we have architects on the on the team and so we're starting to like think about if we're going to do a project money matters and if we can save $200,000 annually you know not outsourcing and having that inside philosophy and staff expertise. That'll be really important moving forward, especially when we're doing multiple projects. Thank you very much. Okay, great. What I propose now is just do a poll and if it's something that looks like there's broad support on the commission here to sign this letter as is. Then we would do that if anyone's got, if it doesn't look like that is the case, and there's people who have edits they wanna make, they could suggest those edits and we could discuss them. So just kind of show a hands, is this something we're willing to support as a commission? Okay, looks at the letter as is, looks good. Okay, great. Well then I think should I call for a motion? Should we do this like we do any other approval? Or the motion would be to recommend to bring this letter back for us to sign recommending an endorsement of measure L. Yes, so the action you have come back to. Okay, so just it looks as though all five commissioners are supporting endorsing measure L with this letter as written. Okay. All in favor of doing that? Aye. Five-o. Okay. Great. Thank you very much, Mary Carmel. Thank you. City Manager Kuhnbano. I really appreciate it. It's great seeing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That brings us to the public hearing. Do we need to take quick break? Let's push through. First item is a designer view application for 120 East Manor Drive. And I'll give our planner, Ms. Johnson, a moment to sit down. And would you like to kick off a staff report? Thank you Good evening, Chair Skiles and fellow commissioners. I'm Michelle Johnson, Associate Planner and Project Manager for the following design review application for a substantial remodel in addition to an existing single family residence and the Warner Canyon Kite Hill neighborhood. The Planning Commission provided direction to the conceptual design on July 23rd, 2024 during a study session. So I'm gonna do a little bit of a, we're gonna revisit some of the, from the prior staff report, what the existing conditions of the site for some of those that may not have been present at the study session. The existing conditions are in uphill lot with a unique rectangular shape configuration, shorter in depth than in width. Tendum on-site parking. 113 feet long and 13 wide concrete driveway with a 21% slope supported with concrete retaining walls, wood shake stringles with wood overhangs and two raised redwood decks. Off the second level, one of which encroaches into the 15 foot required yard setback. Landscaping includes few scattered tree shrubs, low line vegetation. The project is located in the woody and very high severity zone, located at the end of a cul-de-sac with an average slope of 52%. The next slide is a neighborhood map that shows the context within the surrounding neighborhood as shown on sheet A70 of your attachment to project plans. Neighborhood Massing Study indicates multiple adjacent projects that have similar existing conditions with two story additions and garages at the street level. At the July 23rd, 24 study session, the Planning Commission provided the following input and direction, suggesting that a storm drainage study needed to be provided to ensure that there no drainage erosion issues downhill to address the mass and height of the existing retaining walls, the verticality massing the potential for light box effect and noise, the overall massing of the home, the need for a more robust construction management plan, potentially minimized earthwork however the planning commission stated that the existing the proposed site work was consistent with what has been approved for similar projects. The design aesthetic in regards to color material and finer design. The glazing for the windows and respect to the light box effect, and the support for natural grass, the previous proposal included 900 square foot of artificial turf, and the request for solar panels either on the roof or information that discussed possibilities of incorporating the solar into the windows. The applicant plans are subsequently revised to address the comments and direction received at the study session. The applicant summary of the design changes are included in attachment three and include the following. The grading plan was updated with a conceptual storm water plan and reviewed by Department of Public Works. The roof deck was removed including the elevator and the stair access. The garage was moved back towards the house underneath the house, reducing the massing. As a result, the two pine trees will remain and the 900 square foot artificial lawn is going to be replaced with a 500 square foot living lawn and pervious pavers, patio, and spa. The higher retaining wall adjacent to the driveway has been removed. The entry stairs pulled back from the property line. The height of garage roof reduced and the colors and finishes modified. As discussed in the staff report, the project is consistent with the general plan and municipal code bindings in regards to setbacks, height and FAR. I've included some drawings also included in the staff report on the on my left shows the design from the 723 study session and the modifications to the front rest west facade. Can you go back much? Oh, absolutely. Great. We have the prior project plans and staff report and meeting minutes are also included in your packet. This is the side north elevation drawings, side south, and rear east. This is an indication of what the previous service area is. As you can see in the staff report the existing is 6,873 square feet, which is 71% of the lot. Proposed as 7,282 square feet of pervious surface, which is a 75%. Here is the cut and fill diagram provided by the applicant. I had reached out to the applicant regarding the total off haul. As you can see, it's consistent with what was in the previous submittal, given the modifications and pushing back of the home farther underneath the house. It didn't change the proposed off- addresses the comments raised by the commission and achieves a good balance given the law constraints, slope and second story addition. It's consistent with the general plan, single-family residential land use, development standards for the RS-10 zoning designation for height setbacks FAR and law coverage, consistent with the single-family residential design guidelines with consideration to site design, building design, landscape design and sustainability, as addressed in the findings for approval and exhibit A. As of today, four letters of concern were provided to the Planning Commission with concerns on on street parking during construction, road closures, and egress and ingress. Staff's recommendation to the Planning Commission is that you find the project categorically exempt under sections 15301 and 15303 of the California Environmental Quality Act and approve the design review application based on the testimony and an evidence in the record and the findings in Exhibit A and the conditions of the California Environmental Quality Act and approve the design review application based on the testimony and an evidence in the record and the findings in exhibit A and the conditions of approval and exhibit B. Are there any questions? Great, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Any questions for staff at this time? Commissioner Yillis? Yeah, just a couple questions, Michelle. Thank you very much for your presentation. Really helpful to see that in some of those comparisons. You know, I'm sure it's in here somewhere. I could do the math, but I'm just wondering, do we have the lock coverage percent somewhere? Maybe I must say that. I believe it's on the site data table. I have the numbers. I just, and I could calculate, but I just wonder if you had that off hand. And then I was also looking for the FAR. Again, I've got the numbers. I did not see the actual ratio. Yeah, I don't have the percentage. I'm asking as question. We'll keep going. Question about the conceptual storm water plan. Do you have that that you can show? Give me one second. I had it up. A lot coverage is 61%. 61%? Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Then don't forget that. I did. That's proposed versus allowed. Never mind. Give me just a second. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's on there. 25%. Okay. Thanks, go. Yeah, for us, it's like, what is Skiles doing up there? You're not going to be on the oversight committee for Measure L. Yeah. Are you sure you haven't in my TV? Exactly. That's the guy with the MIT. Okay. And then, yeah, we looking for that plan still. I am. Give me one second. It's a little wonky. Let me see if I can flip it. So I'll just kind of ask the question. We'll search around here. I mean, I understand the idea. And I think it's great whenever we see a proposal that's got more pervious surface going on than the existing condition. But I didn't see, thank you. And maybe others who read these plans better than me can speak to it, or maybe you know it, Michelle. If there were any, you know, the stormwater retention area, I mean, I guess it's conceptual, so it's hard to know what's actually going to happen there, but I just wanted to know if there were actual technologies or, you know, basins that disperse water that I didn't see it mentioned here per se. So we can ask the applicant that as well. I'm going to refer to the applicant. And also if you look at the conditions of approval, it's also part of one of the requirements that they'll need to provide that in the building permit process. And the FAR is 0.3. Yeah, I said, yeah, I'll ask the applicant. Okay, 0.3 FAR. Any other questions, Commissioner Eoles? Again, I can ask the applicant on this one too. It sounds like they pushed the garage further back. Do we have a sense of how much further back? It cuts that back. I'm going to refer to the applicant. Okay, and that's it for the first staff. Thank you. how much further back it cuts that back. I'm going to refer to the applicant. Okay. And that's it for the first staff. Thank you. Any other questions for staff? Okay. Let's bring the applicant up. Come on up. You have 10 minutes to a presentation. And then I will probably have some questions for you afterwards. Okay. Thanks. All right. Well, you know, thank you guys. I really appreciate that we had that study session. I think it was nice. We had a lot of time. So we had a lively discussion. And I think a lot of good stuff has come from it. And I think, you know, my wife and I are very happy with the, where are with it. And I hope you guys see too that I think it's in a much better place than when I brought it in before. Which one do I do is? No. just wait. No. Sorry. Right and left, is that the one I do? What I'm going to do is just really focus on those changes and it'll answer some of the questions that you've been asking. I think, you know, one of the biggest one obviously is to remove, you to remove the stair tower up and the elevator that went up there and change the mass scene of the cube on the right a little bit. And generally reduce the materials down to one singular material to kind of quiet it down and make a little bit more streamlined. And so what you're seeing here is on the lower right is the result of stepping down the roof edges and doing a slope roof on the building, eliminating and just having the stair be the center section of it now, which is a much smaller massing. And then some of the other things, sorry, we talked about the guard railing and stuff to kind of knock down the amount of glazing. Those are all sliding windows and doors, so they're actually become nice, you know, Juliet balconies with their flesh with the building. You can see the solar panels on the roof. Went and did some research and realized that solar panels do pay off the cost of making them in a couple years. So after that, it's all free, free energy. So I'm on board with that. And then looking at the kind of the base and all of the concrete that was being exposed before, even though it was planted to be planted, thought it'd be a nicer to add some stone in the color of the earth that's there on the site, which is a nice limestone almost color. And the biggest thing is on the lower right one here is eliminating this upper retain walls and letting the kind of natural landscape coming down around it. That really dropped the massing, what you'll be seeing on this shoulder here on the right. Other than that, the mass on the left and everything is pretty much left as is. This is just showing before and after as far as that garage approach. So what I was able to do was pull the garage in and the reason there's no more excavation. I think we took it back three feet so now that instead of it had a stair that kind of came out around. It's a nice clean garage but what got reduced was the uncounted basement space that was there before so we don't need it so we just, excuse me, pulled the garage back in under the house further and so that to helps increase the massing of that garage. You can see we also pulled down the top suggested to lower the planter so it's a much lower expression for that garage massing. I think that's most of the stuff in this view. Some kind of street view changes. You can see the upper one again where that garage and masking kind of popped up. And these are straight from the city session images. And so it's side by side comparison versus the lower one. You don't probably see the much the masking for the stair tower and all that I'd use to you do see it peaking up there from this view. But that's obviously been eliminated. And we've added some sun shading for that glazing above that area This is kind of a little bit higher view kind of seeing the massing of comparison of the two obviously a much quieter expression on the lower one You know the upper one was fun, but you know maybe not for mill valley as we talked about You know, it's a little bit quieter and a little bit more traditional here and I think it'll be a very modern house but at the same time I think have its massing that kind of works with milvalley more. You can see the difference in the stone cladding and the amount of retaining walls that were down to that ground level. You can see the stair there how it kind of poked out and went up and now that stair just goes kind of straight up and that's where we were able to keep the trees that we had had to remove before and pulled everything in from the property line further as well. And then this is just kind of looking above the massing of them. You can see quite a difference on the left side of the building. The roof is going to be an asymmetrical that I call it a moon riot. It's kind of meant to be over the kind of master bedroom area where you'd be able to kind of look up at night and see the moon stars. And then this is just a little bit of comparison. Not at the existing street level. You can see that long, big driveway that goes up that we're eliminating and filling in. And you can see there's a lot of stuff kind of going on in the area where this addition is going to be, which I think is going to be a little bit kind of a cleaner kind of expression there from that point. And then, and on, oh, this is a little bit just kind of showing, you know, we talk about the light box effect. And I get it, you know, when you're in a kind of a narrow canyon, but this is kind of looking back across from the hills, across the valley. This is a very wide part of Mill Valley. So I think even though we've mitigated it with the tintine and some of the shading that we're doing, it isn't something that's very close to anybody that is looking right into the windows. And now, in honor of the Mill Valley Film Festival, I too have a movie. How do I hit play? Here I'm not sure. Oh no, how do I get it to play? Oh, there it is down there, you got it. You know, I want to do this because elevations don't tell a lot of story, a lot of times, and when you fly around something, you really kind of get a little bit more sense about what does it really feel like as you're kind of moving around this building? What does it feel like from the street level? Going up and just kind of seeing the massings of the building and the landscape. You can see the grass area there now that it's going to be a real grass. You can see the lowered shoulder on the garage. You kind of get this nice, still form of this massing on the corner. And then from above the looking down on it, you know, what are the neighbors see from above and seeing that it's really tucked down low and it's really not going to really affect anybody's view that's up behind us as we're keeping it all the same height as the existing structure. So anyway, again, thank you guys for your time and welcome many questions and comments. Thank you very much and I appreciate that video. That was a very nice touch. Any questions for the applicant? Commissioner McGrace, kick it off. I got one, not I was not able to attend the study session so I'm going to limit my comments but I was curious what have you done to engage the neighbors to let them know what you're doing and try to get their feedback? Yeah, we had a meeting at the site and invited the neighbors there and got some really good feedback. Totally 100% get and understand, like anywhere, construction, traffic, parking, that's a deal. I actually have my contractor here today, Tina, with Builder Girl, and she could answer any of the questions about that. But I think there that you know she's done a lot of construction here in Mill Valley and there's ways we can kind of mitigate that and we'll talk about that. So we had a meeting at the house we showed them what we proposed and it was probably a generation before the one I brought here to the study session but it was basically basically the same kind of masters in the same house. And again at that it was questions, you know, where's the parking because you know it's a tight area in there and so that was kind of the biggest concerns I think we heard from anybody. And then one person didn't get invited so we had invited them down the one actually one of the most important ones which is the one right behind us and we invited them down, one of the most important ones, which is the one right behind us, and we invite them down to have a private meeting with them and show them our plans. Okay. Good, thank you. Many other commissioners with questions for the applicant. I do, but commissioner, I'll go after the architects if they have any, if not, then I'll go. Doesn't look like Greg has any, can I? Okay. I have comments if not. Does not have Greg has any, can I? Okay. I have comments, but. You always say the comments for deliberations. I do, I just have questions at this time. Coach, are you all, I do not have any questions. Nope. Okay. I've got a few questions. So just, and I hope it can be a little more of a discussion, but I'm just curious, do you you know, you had the metal screen and I know you're in that kind of line of work before and I know you've got some metal bronze here now. How do you feel about that now versus what you had before? Do you regret removing the kind of the stuff you're doing? No, not really. I mean, I think if this house was somewhere else, you know, if it was down at LA or something like that It would probably would but I think it's still gonna have it has some nice things going on with it That'll still be very modern house I like the massing of it and stuff now my wife as I said love that we removed the spare towers She wasn't thrilled with that so I think it's I'm good. I'm really good with it. I think it's a good mass and a good color. Look, so the metal to me, there's high rises that have been out there 50 years and have metal panel on them. They pretty much look the same. The idea that this is almost impervious to fire, it'll never need a roof. It'll never need paint. I say never, but it'll never need paint it. I say never, I mean, but it'll be, it'll look like this. And we've had a lot of projects, we use our metal and it, we've been doing this for like 20 years, and it looks like the day we put it up. So it's just almost a zero maintenance house and, and we talk about it in a woo very clean form on the outside that, I hope it never comes to that, but I think it would do well in any kind of problem. No, I have no doubt, you know, lifespan wise it will last a long time. The carbon intensivity of it seems quite high though. I mean, do you have a line of work, can you speak to that? We can use 100% recycle aluminum, which is great. But if you think about replacements of things, and the carbon footprint of that, it's actually painting, etc. Basically, it's like in a long run, right? As far as the light box effect, I saw the tinted window spec, and I think that will help you know, UV on the inside, the like box a little bit on the outside. But I guess I just want to talk about landscaping and texture and, you know, what can be done to soften a little bit perhaps. Can you, you know, can you go back, I guess my main question is, are you going to lose any of the trees that are on the frontage right now? No, that's the existing pine that's going to stay. And no, we'll only be adding trees. Can you go to the very first image you showed in your presentation? So the landscape plan doesn't, unless I'm just reading it, doesn't show the addition of any plans, trees that is that, but you've got a number in your renderings here tonight. So I guess I'd like to understand what you're actually adding because I mean just for context this house stands out as much as probably any house on that entire hillside that you know there is that tree but the house is going to rise above almost all of your trees and it's going to be very very prominent and we all talked a lot about the light box effect the last time we were here so I'm just trying to understand if there's a possibility to add some more trees at that upper level or what you're preserving is like. I like to understand and what can be added. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, 100%. I mean, look, I'm sure that we love trees and trees provide shade too. And so, you know, the idea of knowing that exactly what the landscape is for this house, it's hard to know until you kind of get build it and you see it and you kind of live there and stuff. But we do have plans for adding trees, especially in the areas we're going to be doing the new grading and all of that. Along the back, probably not so important for the trees, but again, this probably isn't a good representation of what you're really seeing there. There are the trees that I explained that kind of have been taken away so you could see what's beyond them. But maybe if you look at... Yeah, no, actually there are two new Japanese maples that I'm actually seeing. But they're both at that. Well, one's on the, I guess, Western elevation. And then one appears to be below the lawn. And Maple's grow to 15 feet. So I don't think it's really going to do much to either provide privacy to you or others and mitigate that lantern effect. And while I know you've got some metal screening there too, I would say it's not about a third of the windows, two thirds are more exposed. And obviously the third that it's on are only come up to three or four feet high or something like that. Maybe you can tell me a little bit more. I mean, we would love to add a lot more trees and we probably would do that. I know that even up on that edge up there, I know what the neighbors, that was where the concern neighbor had, the one that's up behind us on that corner there, when they're out on their deck, they can look down and see kind of this side of the house and into the house and all of that. And so the idea of up on the left side of adding more trees to screen that, that's not going to do anything for the light box effect. No, it's real. Yeah, it's more the... But what's that? What's that? But what's that? What's that? What's that? I mean, are you concerned about people across or who does it affect exactly? Yeah. Yeah. You know, however many hundreds of people that live down in the valley and across the valley You're on the other side. So you're saying that some more land. And just, we're not picking on you here. Oh, no, no. It comes up on every house that's on a hillside. Yeah, especially ones that have very little landscaping and stuff. Yeah, and especially ones in tighter canyons, I could imagine, it's definitely a problem. Yeah, I mean, I would be happy to have had, you know, many more trees and probably will when we kind of really start living there and stuff and doing that. But we'll probably have the landscaping done. I know that for the most part there was a lot of landscaping in and so what I did add was you know some trees like the Japanese maple here in the front but yeah I'm not opposed to adding more trees in front of it at all. Okay. And more looking at this elevation and maybe this is a good one to do that. You know, there were a number of people at last time commissioners who suggested last time stepping back that front element that comes out that is so tall and comes out so close to the road and putting a, you know, basically a balcony there to help it step up. You know, it seemed like there was plenty of space to do that. That bedroom, that bedroom looks quite large there. I'm just curious to know why you didn't consider doing that. That large, that bedroom, but the time you have to put a master closet in the master bath, it's only I think 12 foot deep, but like the width might be a little bit more than you need, but the depth, by the time you get enough room for a master bed and then you get your sinks and then kind of the showers and toilets, you know, you look at that floor plan. There's not a lot. I mean, I could look at that. I don't know if, I like the massing as well as for it to be stuffed like that. It kind of always had this image of it being a nice kind of volume, singular volume. Yeah. Okay. I want to keep going, but actually before we do, you mentioned you do a division putting a number of trees in here like to address the light box effect. Light box effect. Do you, where do you think you might be able to put a tree that can actually help help with that on that primary, you know, offending if you call it that southern elevation? I think all the way along it. Where? Can you point or I guess there's a laser if you have one or down below. But would they rise up? How tall do they need to be to actually, you know? How tall is that? Well, what do you concern more about the light going down to people below or going across the canyon? Because if it's the people below then they don't have to be so tall. I think it's mostly across the canyon. You'll see it. Well then you blocked the view. Look at the trees. But look at every home on that hillside almost all of them have a lot of trees you know they've got a blend of trees and home. But let's try to make this more of a question and answer unless the question is asked me a question. Okay. I know. I know. I'm trying to. I want to get the problem in the form we start having deliberations. Telling me that you're going to put in some trees later or we're going to look at it doesn't work for me here. Okay. So I'm asking you so that you can make the call, not I mean, and I'm happy to hear maybe we'll come back to you guys. And maybe you guys think that the brawn, the tinted windows are enough to address it. So I'd like to hear that from the architects. You probably spent part of their career speccing window glazing. So we can come back to that too if we had preferred to go that way. So why don't we do that for now? Yeah, and I think that if you look in the package is there's a photograph of that side of the street and see the trees there. It's not like what you're seeing on my rendering. It's like I said I had to remove them so it didn't block the information that was beyond it. But there is more greenery than you than what's shown in that. And I think they're right in this area because we got a big tree area. Yeah, maybe you can go to that slide that just shows that side of the street. And maybe we can decide right now and say, yeah, if we threw a couple in and filled it where there's an open spot, it might be useful. I mean, I think just for reference, what is the total height from the elevation, the floor elevation of the garage to the top of the home, just so we know, you know, as far as tree selection, what we need to do to try to get most of the way up there. Can we go to that elevation for a second, Michelle? Yeah, I wanted it like more than 45 feet. You know, around 50 feet. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I mean, just to be clear, right, we're talking about some substantial trees to get up to 35, 40, something. I mean, in the big picture here is context, right? Almost all the homes on that hillside have a lot of tree coverage. And we're trying to improve the situation that you have now. And we're trying no offense, as much as you and others may like the design. We're also trying to be contextual about the approach that we're taking here. That's exactly a second number one thing. And the very first thing our design guidelines talk about. So I'm trying to kind of get us toward that a little bit, and I hope you can appreciate that. I do. I do. I think it'd be great to go back to that slide. I think you had Michelle with that elevation, because I think it does tell a little bit the different story about how much trees are there. And I'm happy to add as many trees as you want. I love trees, so it provides privacy and I get it Commissioner Ulyss, if you don't mind I do want to make sure we get the public in before we kind of really start with deliberations and I think we I think yeah, you've asked the question We've raised the issue. We start deliberations. He's not here. I understand that but I think this is a design review hearing with a complete set of drawings and you know we should well-judicate it based on that and you know if there are conditions that need to be added we can do that. I'm not trying to cut you off but I just I want to be respectful of the getting the public comment into before we start opining. Okay just two or three more questions. Limestone over the concrete just curious you know I don't know that we, anybody expressed concern about the concrete per se last time. Maybe we even talked about board form concrete and whatnot. Do you feel strongly about that? Because it is just yet another material that's got to be trucked in. It's more sustainability, you know, carbon concerns. You know, there's something about that aesthetic retry to address us. Are concerns, or was that something you wanted to do? I think what I'd do is just to kind of warm it up more, you know, as far as a finish on it. I thought about, you know, the idea that maybe we used a tinted concrete or a colored concrete or something that would be a warm color. But, you know, I just see in house, it's a very thin veneer and stuff and it's real stone. I wouldn't be using, you know, the phony concrete stuff. This will be real stone. I actually had this little bit of fantasy that maybe this is a pretty rocky site that maybe I'd start seeing what comes off the site and seeing if we could kind of use it as a surface, but I don't know yet, you know, that's kind of a known. So rather than that, I thought, well, why don't I pick up a color that kind of looks like the color of the Earth there, which is a very limestone-y kind of warm color to go with the bronze. OK, so you feel sick to say, not a little strongly about that? Or a very? I mean, it's going to cost me more money to do. But we have it on our house now, and it's nice. So not a little strongly. I mean, we're going to need to do, but we have it on our house now and it's nice. So. Modeling strongly. Modeling strongly. Okay. The only way is something we talked about a little bit last time. I know there was a good bit of discussion about excavation and off-haul, and then there's four people who've written in about construction impacts, parking, et cetera. I looked at your construction management plan. And this may be for staff too, so just to, you know, prick up your ears a little bit. I guess my question really to staff is, you know, and they're showing a number of cars parked in the driveway when they're doing much of the excavation loading, and that's probably not gonna be possible entirely or at all at times. When, I know that the construction management plan talked about carpooling, my question is, especially for the public here tonight, who have concerns, how does the city enforce that? If the public has concerns, and there's a ton of cars walking the road and whatnot, how is it enforced? Is there anything that they can do as neighbors to reach out to the city or to the, I know they have to put up a contact number on a sign for example, but is beyond that is there anything that can do, because yeah, I think in reality there's not a lot of carpool going on having lived next to a construction site for about 16 months recently? So admittedly, it's difficult to enforce. By and large construction management complaints are on a complaint basis. Our inspectors that do inspect and observe, they'll call attention to any issues that they find to the contractor. But oftentimes it's the building official that's working directly with the contractor to alleviate any issues that we receive via complaints. So it's literally calling in the contractor at times or working with them over the phone or the inspector upholding the CMP. So at this point this is a preliminary CMP and we will get into the more detailed construction management plan at the construction permit drawing phase. Okay, thank you. The construction manager playing calls for 10 months. Casual. Do you really think this will take? 10 months. What why is so I mean because she's awesome. I'll tell you why this is I'm I'll get inside. She is great. She has all of her subs. They all are very loyal to her. It's getting them to show up in the day. They're supposed to get up. I'm the owner and I'm the architect. So I go down there every day. There's a question. I can answer it right then. I have to go to the owner. I have to go to the architect and wait for somebody to come back with that answer. So she did a similar size house for us and she did it in ten months. and so I have every faith and that house was new. This one we're actually keeping a large part of the foundation, well the whole house foundation and all the framing of the existing house. So it's really down to the new park that's going to be added onto it. Okay, and then last question, the underfloor area seems like a fantastic opportunity to store soil basically. Oh, interesting. Yeah, you should a teeny amount of soil basically. Oh, interesting. Yeah, you should a teeny amount of soil being stored there, but you know, length by width by height is a little, I mean, that's trucks and trucks and trucks. Wonderful idea, because are you opposed to filling that entire space with soil? Okay, because that would obviously alleviate a lot of impact to your neighbors, to the street. It saves you time, a little money, and I think that's why some people that are in the audience. All right, thank you very much. Okay, great. Any other questions for the applicant? Commissioner Serrino? I think because the construction timing and the disruption and the access is such a critical issue. I would like to hear a little bit from the contractor about, because that's a pretty, I mean, that would be a pretty awesome achievement to build that whole house. And did you say 10 months? This is not a first rodeo. Yeah, so I would, could you be, could, could, could you speak combative? Well, could you hear a little bit from the contractor? Do you want to go to that? Oh yeah, any member of the team that can come on up and ask an answer question. You know, what your magic potion is or how you, how you do that? Well, I wanted to tell, uh, Yon, is that your name? John. Sorry that you lived next to a construction site with a typical construction of 16 months to three years. That's never been available. I see that, no, I see that around. Okay, but that's not what I said. Let's not. You said you've been living next to one for 16 months. Okay. I'm just saying, I hear, know what I'm saying is, I hear this a lot around Mill Valley. It's never been my experience. With all the respect, if we could just, I understand. Yeah. But the question to you about, if you could just conceptually tell us what you do different. How I do it. Yeah, I'm going to contract for 35 years. And I've never taken more than 12 months to build a house. And I did their pretty big one. In fact, it was the same size, yeah, in 10 months. And my as silly as this sounds, you know, I pay my guys the day they're done. I'm very respectful. I have a Gantt chart that the guys know about. I put it out when I first start the project. And I have everyone look at it. And I say if you have, you know, vacation's plan, you have things going on, you have another job going on, whatever, I need to know that you can fit in this or I'm going to plan B. And they almost all agree to it. And so they know when they're supposed to be there. It just hasn't been an issue. It's not rocket science. You just have to get guys there when, you know, they've- Okay, so that particular site is a very difficult place to get to and from. I was up there, prior to the first session and there happened to be some construction on a house just beyond the cul-de-sac and there were eight construction vehicles obviously that was in you but there's essentially as far as I could tell no place to park a construction vehicle zero. Well we have to be able to park at least two cars. Other than that, it's not a big deal. My guys usually bring all their tools at once. We lock them up and then they carpool. And I don't overlap anybody in such a way that we have so many cars there, we just have a really tight schedule. So I'm really very attentive to that. It's more trucks than cars, but. Well, same thing. Yeah, so just saying that I'm very on top of it. I also introduce myself to all the neighbors. I give my phone number, because you were talking about how to monitor it. I give my phone number because you were talking about, you know, how to monitor it. I give my phone number, my email to everyone, and I say, if you see something that seems amiss or somebody forgot something or missed the memo, you're welcome to say something to my guys are all very respectful. If you're not comfortable with that, call me. I'll take care of it. It won't happen again. I don't get any complaints any time because I'm very, very careful and very respectful. And, you know, as funny as it sounds in this day and age, being a woman in this business, I noticed things that a lot of the men don't. And that's why I got into the business in the first place when I was 28 years old. As I saw that a lot of things were missed, and everybody's the guys talked to each other like this. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Where I'm just like, look at me, did you hear me? Did you hear him? You know, I know it's like I'm part psychologist and or marriage counselor, between my guys, you know. And it does matter because, you know, and it does matter because they know what my expectations are and I tell them, you know, if you leave something out and it blows across the street, they're not gonna call you, they're gonna call me. I want my neighbors to feel comfortable, you know, knowing when my sign goes up, who's gonna be building it? I've had people call me and tell me, oh my gosh, we just saw the construction sign going up. We were sad to see that this is going to happen. We're going to have a house here or we're going to have a new house here or whatever, but we were happy to see it was you because they already know my reputation. Well, I just doubly raise it because I know that it's a very difficult site. It's a yeah. And it is. You can't do it without cars. Are you sure? You will have to really do what you say. You're going to have to architect owner, contractor, really have to achieve those goals that you've stated. I do the and I'm. Well, I do the best I can. Yeah. I mean, I always put my best. It's definitely a partnership and it's good that you have short sort of communication lines because you got a combo on our architect, which is great. So just keep in mind as you go ahead, I think it's one of the, I think that I have a lot of sort of very positive response to the design things I'll talk about later, but I think this particular thing is probably, if you're gonna go wrong, it's gonna be because of that. Well, and I think, like I said, that's kind of why I got into the business. I saw a lit of miscommunication or lack of communication when I was a young carpenter. And I thought they're not listening, and so I can't do magic. And I can't build the house with no trucks going up there. I can't hand dig it without tractors. But certainly, we know how to do it quickly and smoothly and to be careful. Is there a question because I don't think that was a statement and that was a statement. So, okay, we're done with questions, any more questions? Okay, thank you very much. Let's move it now to public comments. Anyone who would wish to make a comment on this project? This project, come on up, state your name, you'll have three minutes, and if you want to give us your address, you're welcome to, you don't have to. And yeah, first person, take it away. Good evening, I'm Noan Adenos, and I resided 69, Marlon Avenue, have for 65 years. You're talking about the right things, I think. We have been following this from the beginning. From the beginning, we thought it's way too big. And now it's not way, but it's still big. You're looking at the right context when you talk about how difficult it is. It's a small street. It's a small, a small cul-de-sac. My friend Susan Rill, right behind me, right to the end of that. So she has, she's on the street. I'm up above and I value, I suggest that you not try to landscape this house on the basis of the renderings because they are very, very, just in general, as I should say, they are not accurate to what the situation is actually. So we don't want to lose our solar access. Our deck is right above Category. We appreciate that the leaf line is not going to change from what it is now, at least to our end of the house, our view. Ian Clayton, who lives directly above, probably should be consulted before you start planning trees behind, because his deck is right above. So the context here is really, really important. This is a tiny street, and we've had, I'm not all the street, but above. So I suggest that you really focus on this issue with you been debating and trying to get some assurance that the access and the safety for the people who live on that little narrow street is assured. Joan I think is going to my neighbor's going to speak for yourself. Thank you very much. I'm Susan Reynolds. I'm at the end of the cul-de-sac. No, there's been my neighbor for 65, well, 64 years. And we're still living next door. And we built the house in the early 60s and we had no idea it would become more beautiful as the years went on. And they have, I have huge oak trees and the the cal fires coming in wanting to prune them and the worst theory is getting pruned. Anyway, we're in a very lush area. We are tucked down this little street, and it is special. We have people asking, you know, what do you want to move? Or do you know anyone who has a house? It's a block party a couple of weeks ago. 33 people came. All they did was get an email saying, hey, we're going to do it. 33 people showed up and it's a delightful community. Okay. We've just finished four months of construction next door, an older house which we thought was going to be torn down, a young couple bought it and they have been working for four months. There have been from six to nine trucks on that cul-de-sac and up the throat of that street. And you know, I don't know. The construction workers, I mean, the contractors got used to me. Excuse me, who's got the black talk again? Who's going, so I mean, these people, there was no plan. They weren't parking off site. And the minimum was six, and it went up to 12 one day. Let me tell you, it's the, but really got my attention in addition to being trapped, was that the male man came a number of times pounding on the door to know that this is dangerous. No one could get out if they wanted to. Okay, so the parking isn't issue, but what I wanna say is the interesting thing about the landscape is that I can't remember when the house was built, it was built when we lived there maybe 25 years, and then it was built. It was built when we lived there maybe 25 years. And then it was built. And it was carved out of the cul-de-sac. It is raw, it is a rough, chert surface. It is not a lovely landscape surface. There are several small oak trees and they take a while. The Aleppo Pine visit the under the driveway is kind of a volunteer for my big guy that was planted 63 years ago. And there's no way you could plant anything on that almost solidly rock hillside. It is solid. It's a mess What has is happening is that apparently the owner has the water going and what's being watered is Black Acacia Does anyone know what a black Acacia is? I don't think it's really a good idea. It's invasive and it's moved across. It is, these bushes about four feet tall and I sometimes have my gardeners come over yank them out because it's going to be solid, a casea. And the fire prevention people are looking for taking out a casea as well as junipers. But that is, I don't know how anyone can plant anything on that hillside, they'd have to take a jackhammer. And if you don't mind maybe wrapping up that, just whether you're rational. I understand. I just want to be respectful of the reason, I don't know what trees are going to grow that rapidly unless you plant. You coliptus and you don't want to do that. Thank you for your comments tonight. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. that will be the same. So, I think that's the only way to get the right to the right to the right. So, I think that's the only way to get the right to the right to the right to the right. So, I think that's the only way to get the right to the right to the right to the right. So, I think that of our concerns were obviously to do with the boot flying and the height of it all. I think so most of that looks like it's been addressed. And obviously, it has privacy. I did see it stuff on the solar panels. Most of them seem to be on the front of the house. And not on the back of the house. So I'm assuming we're not going to get a lot of clear and stuff like that. And then I only say, it seems the most discussion on the trees we're to do with the front of the house as well to reflect that. I mean, I think as we've experienced, we spent a lot of time on our deck looking out and stuff like that. So we would want a whole bunch of trees at the back, sort of blocking that. So that was very my concern, but it seemed to be if you say that solar panels seem to be not an issue. But thank you. Thank you very much. Anyone else come on up to state your name and your address if you wish to? I'm Danak Remy, one of four East Manor and I've looked here for about 40 years and I'm really sad that I won't be able to say hi to you on your rooftop deck. I was so bummed to hear that got ditched. And I really appreciate that, you know, everything you're doing with a Firesafe house, I think it's going to be a great model for Mill Valley. I mean, I appreciate that you kept the envelope, the Joan of Lundblatt actually built herself in 1972. And I'm very happy to see Girl Power driving the construction of the project. My husband will be the number one cul-de-sac car monitor. He's at home all the time. So you'll get to know him really well. And I will say that construction has been a real issue with not only what just happened at Susan's house but another house down the street. It's super narrow. We get dinged all the time when we have eight people for a dinner party. The police let us know that cars have parked in places that they shouldn't, making it not safe on the street. So I'm sure you'll address that. I was just going to comment that there are some oaks on that hillside, and it is exactly a Susan just said. I mean, I don't know how you can plant it unless you're going to do a lot of planting beds along that hillside. It is inhospitable to plants. I personally would like to see the monoray pine removed. I think that they're fire hazards and the less fire hazards we have, the better. And so whatever you plant, I hope you'll think about, you know, like the trees that, you know, won't catch fire. And then, you know, my one issue, which, you know, we shared when you did that wonderful open house, thank you so much for hosting that, is the shaft that goes up. I am the only house in the neighborhood whose house is going to be directly impacted by the roof line. And so I've looked at the story polls as they've gone up and I am a little bit nervous because it is impacting my view of Mount TAM. I don't generally trust story polls. I've seen them go up in other houses and the buildings become much taller. And so I would love to see if there is any way, whether or not that elevator shaft that was supposed to go to the garden. Could come down because it is smack dab in my view of Mount Hymn and you know if it's off by even a little bit it's going to be even more invasive to the entire roof line. So that's my one request is that you look at that because I am the only house that has a view impacted by your home across the valley. And then one thing, there's a drain line that goes from Ian's house through my property and then down through your property. It's a clay line that comes out right at the bottom of the driveway. I've had to personally clean that line out for Joan and Joan. It's a very old line. I'm sure you're going to have to take it out when you do, but I'm hoping that when you all were talking about water management, I was hoping that we would make sure to look at what is basically a common lateral that comes from Ian's house, runs through my yard. None of my water goes into that pipeline and then goes through your line and then ends up down on East Manor. And it is, it used to gush and it doesn't gush anymore. I don't know if something happened at Ian's house or if it's blocked again. But I didn't see anything in the last couple of winners when I was taking care of Joan. So those are my only comments other than whatever you plant along the line where the new addition is that you plant short trees. So I don't lose my view too, please. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anyone else wishing to speak on this item? Not seeing anyone else? Okay, I'll close the public hearing, bring it back up to the board for the Commission for deliberations. And I looked at our minutes from last and I believe Commissioner Cerengle had the most volume in those comments. And so we will start with Commissioner Cerengle for deliberations. not quite as organized as it was last time, but I would like to say that I think that on the design side, the response to the study session for what you've done, I think it's an example of why I think we have design study sessions. And I believe you've addressed many of the things that, very specifically that we talked about in a way that is not just verbatim, but you took it on board and refought it and came back with a better design in a number of ways. Starting with the massing, I think the move to, as we discussed, to make the center knuckle void rather than an object is a very important move. I think it's very successful. The idea of making the two components, the existing house and the new addition to be of a family together, yet different is I think what we talked about and I think you've done that successfully. You mentioned it but basically having a black one on a white one versus having two pieces of the puzzle that are compatible materials, albeit I think the existing house is a more traditional version of that and the addition is a more contemporary version. So I think that brings it together. It makes it more of a, in a way it kind of blends in, but it also, I think achieves an architectural idea that you're striving for. I also think that your use of the screens that were much more aggressive, I think you said LA kind of thing last time are now still being used, but they're being used to shield some of the light. Create the Romeo Juliet balcony's out of a new kind of contemporary material that is of your liking and your, you've got history with it. And I think it's kind of a good way of achieving, reducing the light at in character and making the pieces of the puzzle again, have some distinction but being compatible. We asked you to, if you would really consider using solar panels, you were a little gun shy on that last time but I think you've not only just done it but you've taken it on board. So I think just in general I think the down the list, landscaping and the terracing, I think it's a really, really nice to see a range of responses across the board. The one thing that, and I don't know what the answer is here, but the one thing that seems like, I wouldn't make this a given, but the form of the roof on the new addition with the Oculus sort of off-centered, I think it's a very clever idea. It still leaves the elevator tower as sort of a bit of an odd piece. You know, maybe it's receded back and it's not, it's fine. I guess I wonder if there was a way to grab that thing that has to stick up to be sort of the culmination of forms. It won't put a skylight where you want it, but it's one of the pieces of the puzzle that is a little less than a wonderful, I'll leave it at that. I think I may be might swing around again, but I think that captures at least the design side. I just would just go back for just a second on the access. The plan that is showing on page A1A, if you could put that up, A11. A11, excuse me, A11, showing parking on that street. I find that hard to believe. You know, there's a car directly across from a driveway. I, you know, maybe some turning radiuses would cold for it, but I don't see how you could have two or three cars parked there and still get in and out of that driveway. Maybe I'm misreading it, but it just seems like the image of one, two, three, seven, eight 7-8 potential parking spaces is doesn't seem possible to me. So I guess maybe when we circle back, I would like to see more rigor to the management plan, the parking plan, the thing that's going to cause your neighbors to be unhappy. Whatever elements of that that we can improve and focus on and make your project successful. So I'll leave it at that. Great. Thank you very much for your deliberations. Commissioner Hilderrand once you go next? So first of all, thank you for, I, when I went to you the staff report on page four and I looked through those nine items on there and on the ninth item, all the various, colors and finishes. We don't usually get somebody that addresses all the things we talked about. I think you did a really good job of that. And I'll just add a little bit to I agree with what Commissioner Surangle said. But you basically addressed every single thing we talked about. And that never really happens in my view. And I'm a big fan of glazing because it brings in day lighting. I think the fear of the light box effect, I just don't think that's the future. The future is day lighting, not small windows and lots of energy to light the home. But you've addressed it. A lot of people would want low iron glass there, but you've addressed it with the light bronze tint, and that'll help with performance of the glass, and it'll cut down on the carbon. But it'll soften the light, and so you've addressed that. So I do appreciate that. I don't think we should keep talking about that personally, but that's just my own personal opinion. And the way you've used, because I've been lucky enough to use Bach modern panels before on projects, and the fact that you've used them so well, and you've come back to us, not just where you had that kind of black and white graphic going, but you've brought them in and as a shading device. You've brought them in as a screen that that's offence to the glass and does address privacy. And you're using the Core 10 Fencing, which is so much better to be able to use recycled steel than end up taking down our northwest cedar and redwoods to surround everybody's property with redwood and cedar, which is what we see around Mill Valley. And I can't agree that that actually helps with privacy, but that's what everybody wants to do. And so the fact that you've done that with your product and you've used it in different finishes, I think it's going to look fabulous. So, and then the comment about the limestone cladding, you know, while your house is on the hill with whether that's board for and concrete or other concrete, this really softens it. And so I really appreciate the addition of the line stone because it, you know, it's often, it warms it up and it provides texture. And I think that's going to be at your, your sightline when you walk up to the house. So I think that's great. And I think as far as the concern about trees, I have full confidence that you're going to want to plant them where you can. And we all talk about trees so we can hide a house. I just, to me, it has to be more about how do you create a garden that you're doing in some of these planting areas. You're going to have a nice garden. You're going to add a Japanese maple. You're going to try to maintain the trees you have and then add to it. I'm not concerned about that. I think you can do that. But you also have to be careful how you do it from a fire safety standpoint and from blocking off the neighbor's views. So that's just a fine line that I'm not going to dictate where you put the trees. But in any case, I'm in full support and I think you've done a fantastic job. Thank you very much. put the trees. But in any case, I'm in full support and I think you've done a fantastic job. Thank you very much. Commissioner Hullaran, Commissioner Ulyss here, deliberations please. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I just want to say, you know, you've made a good number of improvements to what we talked about last time. And I think we all appreciate that. And I'll to what we talked about last time, and I think we all appreciate that, and I'll just reiterate what I said last time, which is, you know, I don't think we see a lot of modern architecture that works, and I think what we're seeing tonight in general works a lot, you know, better than last time. You know, the darker material palette blends into the hillside, and that's a huge improvement. I think, you know, something that recedes from view as much as it can, you know, is always appreciated, as much as good architecture is fun. You know, I don't think most people want to see structures out there windows. And so that's really appreciated. It would have been great if you could have done that roof deck off the master bedroom. I think it would help step that very forward prominent piece of the home a little bit further back. And because it's quite tall and quite prominent, there's a lot of really large retaining walls going on here. It's going to take a long time. It sounds like you really want to plant them and do as much as you can to screen, but it's going to take a long time for everything to grow in. And planting landscaping doesn't always take either, especially on a really steep hillside. So I think that's important to keep in mind. As much as I think you addressed a lot of the improvements, and this is more about process than I think this particular project, I think it's also important for us as a commission to not just look at improvements, but look at what the new proposal is and still make sure it is largely compliant with the design guidelines and that where it isn't compliant, that there's good reason for it. And they're often as good reason to not be compliant. Or maybe there's other areas of a project that excel that carry it and others maybe don't need to as much. And I think to some degree, that's the case here. By the way, I really appreciate the contractor speaking up. I think we need, if she's half the contractor, I really appreciate the contractor speaking up. I think we need, you know, if she's half the contractor, she sounds like she is. We need more people like her in town and I maybe she'll consider offering a contractor training course to some of the other contractors in town. No guarantees. Ten months? She's going to be stolen. In any case, Commissioner Strangle mentioned that roof that I think, you've got an AIA fellow here, which is a big deal, who's being recognized with a legacy award at his architecture school, and I think about 7, 8, nine days, which is also a huge deal. And you're getting some really valuable tips from somebody who could be billing out or probably a thousand dollars an hour right now if he wasn't retired. So I will just jump on the Commissioner Strangle bandwagon here to say I think he's on to something with that roof. I hope you'll study it. I bill out at about 60 cents an hour for architecture. So here's my 60 cent version, which is maybe some kind of cool modified hip could work there. Maybe it's a shed roof or something. I do feel for your neighbor who's talking about views being impeded a little bit. Views are not protected under the law, but they should be honored to the extent that they can be. And she's been living with the condition. I'm not quite sure how long you may have said. I'm sorry if I didn't hear that. But for years? For years. For years. For years. For years. For years, 40 years with a certain vantage point. And I don't know if we can reopen and hear any thoughts on whether it's possible to tweak adjust. I don't know, I know it's a elevator. Tower and that is a tricky thing. It's not like you can just easily move that sort of thing. I go ahead and ask for that. Let's see how the can just easily move that sort of thing. I go ahead and ask for that. Let's see how the chair wants to handle that. So just the couple of things that I want to come back to in the end. So again, largely kudos. As far as the construction management, I think we've all been up to the site or most of us have been up to the site. I do think you can generally park a number of cars up there. I'm curious to make sure that we actually have the width. I don't see a dimension going this way. I mean, we could dimension it. I don't have my ruler tonight, but maybe somebody can dimension to make sure that we've got the required EVA there that's necessary. And if not, we, okay, well that sounds like it's not a good situation. So we got, I think we should talk about that a little bit further. The conditions I would say that we should consider applying to this project that I would like to see applied are. The applicant sound of very amenable to filling that under floor area with as much soil as it can handle. I really think that would be a benefit to his pocketbook, his neighbors, and the whole community by not having that many more trucks go down and out, light the hill, and we all know what that can be like at 3.31 school gets out. I still do think it would be nice. It's great. As much as, first of all, there is no spec, low-brown, you've got a tint. You said a bronze tinted glass. We don't know if it's 1% tinted or 99% tinted. And so I really would like to get to a little more specificity. And I think I see Commissioner Hilden rolling his eyes basically over here. So wait, I'm not asking you to speak yet, but I would love to hear your, I know you have a lot of technical knowledge in this area, so feel free to address my concern here. But I'm not just speaking about light box here. I'm also speaking about texture and blending into your surroundings like every other home pretty much does. And not no offense showing off this big thing on a prominent hill. When you look at the site plan, most of the trees that look like they are existing into remain are within a foot or two or three of these retaining walls that you're gonna have to build. And I doubt that between the retaining walls and the root systems and that incredibly steep hillside, most of those trees are going to remain. So I really do think we should consider making sure that if they don't survive the construction, that we have a condition so that there is a certain amount of, at a minimum, retention of what you have there now and ideally, and I've got some specific city in this, and I'll come back to it. Just to get maybe a pair of trees that will grow tall enough into Michelle, if you'll bring up the main elevation, the South elevation, tall enough, partway into the set of windows on the, there we go. The set of windows there on the South facing facade, some kind of, I on the south facing facade, some kind of, I don't know, 25, 30% opacity when canopy is full grown or something like that. And I think that's it. So again, thanks. I think this is going to be a cool addition. Be great if we could solve, you know, addressing neighbors' concerns. I think staff, we should talk about that a lot more. But I think this will eventually be an exciting project. Thank you. Thank you very much. Commissioner McGrace, your deliberations please. Yeah, thanks. Since I couldn't attend the study session, I'll keep this to a minimum. It does seem in general you've been very responsive to the feedback from the commission. So thanks for that. You might want to talk a little more about what John brought up. Seems to me the number one issue is the construction management plan. You've got a good recipe for about as good as it gets in that you're the owner and architect. And you've got a very experienced contractor with you, which it sounds impressive if you can actually do that. Another key here is just listening to neighbor comments that there's no perfect solution here on construction manager, you'll have to cooperate and coordinate. And I know you know that but I'd just Encourage everyone to remain neighborly and communicative To make this work and and it sounds to me you've all been there quite some time you know what that will look like when it happens so that's you know we can't can't legislate that into into being we can perhaps ask Patrick more about the city oversight. Is there anything extra that can be done from an oversight perspective because it's a call to sack because it's a narrow road because it's a steep hillside where there are going to be truck rolls and it's complicated. So would it be appropriate to do anything extra on that? And maybe I'll pause there. That's a great question. And in asking that question, I was kind of drawn upon, I think it was lower Wayne right where a project at the end of the road ended up as a private road. And that was more about just access to the project, but that was one I think came to mind, but this commission maybe, the commissioners, this commission, I would say with exception of Chair Skiles, may recall, may Chair Skiles, you may recall 501 Cascade, where the commission actually imposed certain restrictions that became conditions of approval. For construction, worker parking, even how to manage with very intricate at this level of conditions of approval, because 501 Cascade is way up on the mountain that's at narrow road, is a very steep topography. And I wouldn't say this project is apples to apples are the same. I'm just saying to answer your question, if you feel the need to go beyond what you see in the conditions of approval to impose specific conditions or beyond what the applicant has identified in the construction management plan sheet eight and offer up conditions of approval. What I would recommend, I can't think of any specific to this project site other than if you wanted to go further and there's a certain phase where the driver will be completed and that then offers an So like project development, there's phases where we're feeling questions today about a project and they're delivering materials and there's a lot of impact. But next week things will be different. So it's just that time period where there are like in 501 cascade again, we were receiving complaints when they were a pile driving because of noise impacts. That went on for a couple days and there's nothing we could do about that and uphold the noise ordinance and ensure that they're not going beyond the hours that are limited for construction. There's a lot there, but I can't think of any staff didn't through our coordination with the Department of Public Works. I didn't fly any specific conditions beyond that of the standard conditions for construction management. I wondered that, that's helpful, thank you. And beyond the conditions we could impose, I guess I had been thinking about operationally after approvals during the construction. Can we do more because of the unusual constraints in this site to enforce whatever the conditions on? I mean, if you want me to answer some other things I've seen over the many years of this coming up and there was a time period where we had things called impacted streets when there was more than one project going on at a time. And then you had to kind of like use with work with staff to kind of coordinate your parking with the other project on the street, limit your hours of deliveries that used to happen on impacted streets. That probably doesn't apply here but those are other conditions that I've seen certainly around the schools as well. That was popular for a while to try to limit the number of deliveries that were happening at the same time if you were if you were you know three houses down from a school on park kind of thing. I saw that for a while. So there's those are ideas I'm not sure who one of those directly apply here. And then of course limiting the number of cars is a classic. I mean you can write a condition that says no more than two construction vehicles can be parked on the street in this cult sack. That would be probably the most applicable to this particular project. Okay and I'm not really sure what to ask specifically other than imposing conditions. Not sure I'm proposing that either, but in terms of enforcement and coordination is there anything more that the city can do as a partner along with the neighbor and the builder to Make sure that when issues pop up and are somewhat unpredictable day-to-day that we try to make things as best as they can be. So we've called in contractors and the neighbors, like 501 Cascade again, a good example where we had two meetings during the course of that project with neighbors in the contractor. But it led to the contractor actually literally taking phone numbers and emails and communicating when there's a delivery for example. So I think that deserves sort of a sound like we have a good contractor on hand and the proactive. It's incumbent upon them to be doing that. And if there's issues along the way then the building official and I we call a meeting with the neighbors in the contract. Okay, so I think it sounds to me like the rules in place are there to be enforced and they are reasonable rules and it's up to everybody involved on this to make it as good as it can be because it's going to be disruptive for 10 months. Yeah, well, then right. That's a trade-out book communication with the neighbor seems key. All right. And the construction manager plan, I mean, you probably read this. She ate states that vehicles show park on the project site. So it does call that out. And then it talks, it speaks to the park and ride, Manzanita, and the public parking construction workers would park and then carpool. So the tools are there to be dealt with. And I think that's bad as far as I intended to go on that. The only other comment I'll finish with on the trees, and there are a number of trade-offs here. Will the existing trees survive the construction? Can new trees be planted and should they be given all the various constraints, including fire safety? So I'm, I'll be curious, I know John, you've given that a lot of thought. You might have more thoughts on how to structure a condition around that. But it just seems there are a lot of constraints and unknown factors right now where we need to allow some flexibility. If I may, I would suggest that any condition related to vegetation would be subject to approval by the Southern R and Fire District. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay. I'll give my deliberations and I'll go have an opportunity to have everybody come back around and hit some of these specific topics. So I'm going to echo what's both of my fellow architect commissioners said regarding addressing the items over up in the study session, I think you did an outstanding job of coming up with creative solutions to each of these. And this is, I said this the first one, this is a challenging site. So I mean coming up with really elegant solutions is hard. So I appreciate you doing that. Overall I think this is a fine project and it meets the design review guidelines and it meets with kind of the assignments we gave you and I think you seem to be pretty happy with the ways turning out as well, which I'm very happy when that happens. A couple very specific things I'll now deliberate that I'll give my kind of thoughts on that we can then open up to the group and discuss. I think this is an appropriate amount of glazing, particularly with the addition of these Juliet balconies, masking some of the glazing, where I'm not concerned about cross canyon lantern effect, and I'm also not concerned about kind of glare and things like that because of the way the glass is being treated. So to me, it's kind of a non-issue. I think that's where I rest on this one. With regards to the trees and the vegetation, your neighbors, a couple of them both brought up the quality of the soil there, and that is really apparent. So I think if that one tree that you're now going to be saving can be saved. And if it can somehow thrive in that sandstone soil, great. It might be hard to get any other trees to do that or it might take a very long time. So I would say the rest of the landscaping effort should really be focused on just making it as beautiful as possible. And small gardens, specimen trees, Japanese maples as you have, those are great choices. And while they don't hide the building, they offer a softness and just a beautiful quality that I think blends well with the architecture. And overall, just makes a really pleasant addition to the cul-de-sac and that your neighbors will enjoy and appreciate, regardless of how it's all the trees get. I think they'll just look very nice. And then with regards to trees behind the home, I think I agree with several of the neighbors where they want to be able to kind of enjoy the views they've had so they don't want anything that's going to be taller than the roof that you are going to be building and I agree with that entirely so I wouldn't over landscape that with trees. Last thing with regards to the roof forms, I totally see what you're saying, Commissioner Saringle, when you look at this view, I was trying to imagine this when I was at the property, and I don't think you can actually see that roof when you're on the street or on the property. You might when you kind of get back a little bit, but I think it would be pretty rare to see that structure at all. So I'm not as bothered by it. Certainly the neighbors that are uphill behind will be able to see it, but I think it's low in their vision scape and I just don't think it'll be that offensive. That being said, if you come up with a better solution, then an elevator penthouse, I mean, we would all appreciate it, I'm sure. So with everybody, it's an opportunity to see it, but that would be something I think you can leave with staff. I'm confident enough in the seriousness that you took from the study session to now that if we kind of just make that a suggestion, you're going to take it seriously based on what I've seen from the generations. So with that, Commissioner Cernyly, you wanted to make a comment. Then if anyone else, we can just continue to kind of deliberate until we kind of coalesce around an idea here. Yeah. Just quickly back to the massing of the elevator. I think your point is well taken. I think the position of it is probably not very visible. Just one thought is you do have a chimney on the other massing of the building and maybe you think of it akin to like a foe chimney. So I'll leave it at that. Could you put on just a 8.1 on versus a second. I think this project is a unique situation for your construction management plan in that it has a very long driveway that you're taking advantage of during the first phase of construction upper left hand corner. That's a very unique situation that you eventually going to turn it to something totally different which is great. It's going to be a plateau. The only thought I, it says on that phase one, excavation and teardemilation duration two weeks. I, I guess I wonder, is there a way for you to think about building this house and making that condition of all those parking spaces last longer. Could you build the addition and could you build more, could you take advantage of that for longer? That would be a suggestion. I see ahead nodding the wrong, left and right, but I think that's worth thinking about. Yeah. There probably is an opportunity to start using the garage rough slab once that's built to park cars in the second half of the project that would be more probable than getting. And I would say regarding cars, I think they already have in their construction. I was going to bring this up as a condition that we should limit the number of cars they're intending to park on the adjacent street, but they already have that in their construction management plan, that they're not going to do that. How many cars? That they're going to shuttle cars and carpool. And so they're really going to use the drop off delivery spot as where cars can be parked unless there's a delivery and then they'll be shuttling people so that kind of already is the way it looks exactly to prove. I think that's a positive response. I do think that drawing that we had up earlier that had seven or eight cars parked along the street is just a 16 foot wide street. You parked one any car, it kind of doesn't work. What happened to say? Huh? What happened to say? Well, if we meet you, we'll bring you up. I think for now, what we typically do is deliberate and then turn on. So did anyone else have any? Did anyone else have any conversations on some of the fellow commissioners' deliberations? John wanted me to address the class spec, so I would do that. So the key issue with the glass is not the JMT where I just was, but the VMT. So that's visual visible light transmittance. So that's a number when you look at glass. So if he did anything darker than light bronze, there wouldn't be any visible light coming through and then you'd have to have a light on all the time inside. So usually when you expect glass, you want the best performance in a low number for this solar heking coefficient and the U value, you want to not have a lot of heat loss and you don't want to have the heat gain, but you want to have the highest visible light transmittance you can. And so that's a real challenge. So that's why glass has certain coatings and such. But anything more than light bronze, it'll be dark inside the house. And then you lose the whole point of having daylighting from the glass. So I think he's done a wonderful job of cutting off a lot of the glazing with the screens. And so, and that's at the upper level. And the most prominent corner is going to have this screen coming around the corner. From the distance, the upper level would be the most visible and the lower level would be the least visible because you're going to have other trees and such. I don't see it as an issue personally just like mission or skills mentioned. Okay, I appreciate that. By the way, to me as a lay person, light bronze, those sounds generic, does that actually mean something specifically? Yeah, it's a particular tint. It's a, I mean, there used to be everybody used that actually at a certain time. Okay. And, and. You see, you see to know how to spell in some like commercial volumes, you know? Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Yeah. The popular glass back in, how can early California modern? Okay. Cushions? Yeah. So let me just for a moment, if I could come back to, uh, landscaping and trees and whatnot. You know, it's too bad we don't have a landscape architect on this commission. We used to have somebody who was, you know, focused on it a lot, but we lost her when she moved. And I just want to make sure we're all kind of fresh. And it was really helpful for me just now to go back to these design guidelines myself. But number 15 is protection of existing vegetation and habitat. And I don't think there's anybody's taking issue with protecting the existing trees and whatnot. But it does say here any construction improvements are discouraged in the drip zone of a significant tree or a riparian zone. And then last, trees during construction, last, should be replaced. Replacement should be as approved and are directed by a city arborist, certified arborist or landscape architect to aid in soil stability, provide necessary canopies, screening, and enhance the unique visual landscape character of Mill Valley. So I think we've got something to help, we can point to with respect to any potential loss of existing trees. Because it seems like, there's a good chance that the four, there are four that are within, looks like a couple feet of the retaining walls that could well be lost. Number 16 is landscaping to maximize privacy and views, landscape design, if anybody wants to follow along on page 16 of the residential design guidelines, single family residential design guidelines, landscaping design should include appropriate landscaping to maximize privacy between residences. Soft and any undesirable light pollution reviews from offsite, we've talked about light pollution. Landscape design should include appropriate planting to soften the appearance of new construction as seen from offsite locations. And I guess that one kind of really hits on what I keep coming back to, which is this is going to be The most prominent home on that entire hillside if we don't do a little more to screen it and while I think You know nobody's saying it's unattractive is going to be super super prominent And so that's why I'm you know recommending something to soften it a little bit Just a couple more landscaping design should include appropriate screening for unattractive views of building and site elements, including an ought limit to building foundations, deck supports, etc. Design compatible with the site and more natural locations the designs are integrated with the natural setting and should focus on restorative efforts to replenish native species and complement preserved existing vegetation. So when you read that one about softening the new home and new buildings, do you read that to mean that there should be trees of enough substance and size on the bank below the home that when you're walking along that street, you're not kind of just hit with a massive wall of new home and new retaining walls, but that there's enough trees to kind of mitigate the amount of new building that you see when you're walking along there. Yeah, I mean, reading this, I think it speaks to anything newly constructed. So whether it's a set of very large retaining walls that step up. No, I get it. But I mean, the vantage point is my question. I mean, there are going to be neighbors across the street. There's people driving that street every day, obviously, not a lot of traffic, walking, et cetera. So I think it should address that street. From that street. And again, I'm spending a lot of time on the map, you know, Google Earth and Google Map looking at what it will be like for people across the canyon looking at it. And it will be, it's quite exposed, especially if it loses some of these trees, but even if it doesn't, this house will rise above those trees. And it will be quite exposed, especially compared to almost all of the homes on the shared home side. I mean, I get your point. I read that guideline to be much more about the immediate surroundings, meaning like the the neighbor across the street, the people walking on that street. You know, that's what I think. Well, I'm not saying we should, you know, we should condition them to put redwoods that are growing up above the roof. Like I said before, I think it's important that we think about a couple of trees that maybe create a little bit of texture for those lower set of windows on the first floor where you've got full exposure of light. And just to kind of soften it a little bit. I'm welcome, I'm open to anybody else who has ideas on how to speak to that, but to me it's a combination of preserving what's there or having it replaced if it dies or is damaged during construction per guideline 15c and adding a pair of trees that accomplish just a certain amount of softening. Yeah. So, and again, I just for the benefit of the folks, the audience, whenever we provide a commission of approval, it needs to be empirical so that staff can actually enforce it. We just say, through some trees in there, they don't know what to do. So that's why I'm being kind of strangely arbitrarily specific about what I'm saying. No, I appreciate that. And how I would condition it given that we don't know enough about the soil and everything of the quality. And really a professional would be the right person to do that would be that we would condition that the applicant engaged their landscape professional and or arborist to determine the appropriate number of 24-inch box trees that can be put into that hillside subject to the review of the Southern Fire District, Southern Fire District, with the outcome being to try to soften the first story, the view of the first story from the adjacent street. Up to, just to be clear, up to, we're not talking about. Yeah, you put them higher in the hill, as a point. Yeah, I think we're both in the same thing. Yeah, I think we are. And that that would be the way of doing it where we're not making an impossible condition for them or for staff to hit, but it's also we're really making clear what our intention is. Yeah, Commissioner Sringle. Just a thought in looking at the plan here. And listening to the comments about how difficult that Rocky Hillside is to plant on. The current plan has a planter right along the leading edge of the lawn area seems like the best opportunity for trees. Some can do the right side. And then they would need to be that tall. The rules of you, the comps which you're doing it. But that strip, it trees down in the slope area. First of all, they're falling. Yeah, it's sloped. So you're losing, every inch you go down the hill, you're losing advantage for trying to get away. It's 52% on average slope. I mean, obviously there are trees in the forest that grow on an out of the corner. This is a very- I don't want to, you know, I don't want to particularly specify exactly what the dude would solve this discussion here happening. But that seems to me that strip there is just right for, you know, if you're going to put trees somewhere. Right. That's the way you put them. Got it. And then I think the other condition that Commissioner Yolos mentioned was to fill in the soil in the underfloor area, which I think we all probably, you know, nod your head if you agree with that. Sounds like a good idea. Yeah. OK. And that we already have in the conditions of approval that if a tree that's shown to be kept is damaged to where it doesn't survive it has to be replaced. So we already have that. That's in the standard conditions of the previous end. Yeah, that's actually in there. That's already in the standard conditions of approval. Okay. Yeah, so that one, I think we're good on. Okay, good. Great, thank you. And so does anyone else have any kind of commentary on things they'd like to see? No, just double checking anything further on construction management not a condition per se but As I read the plans, I mean their construction management plan right now calls for them to carpool and to use the loading zone and to not be parking on the street Yeah, is that staff out that you yeah, so that to me is that's what they're getting approved for yeah We don't need to condition it. Okay. Yeah, the construction drawings, you know We'll be reviewed to and you know for compatibility with the design reviews that approved by the planning commission Yeah, I'm glad you pointed it out because I do think that's a pretty specific Paragraph on that on that sheet that that does Specifically say that on site parking if it's available and if not? Yeah, and that's extraordinary. Most projects don't do that. Most projects do say they're going to use a couple streets spaces. So, okay. So the condition that I said, I kind of rambled, but I mean basically it's that the applicant will work with their Arborison Landscape Professional to determine a plan to add 24-inch box trees, two or three if they can, to the banked area below the home as high up as they can with the prospect of them growing up to at least the first floor level. Yeah. So just to give them a little more flexibility. Senator Kevin? Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Mr. Rangel. Yeah. Mr. Rangel. Again, I think the most opportune location would be actually not on the bank but in the strip of planting so if we could have it at least be you know either or let's do this. I wouldn't want to you know wouldn't want to preclude that that is a great opportunity and I even see the applicant nodding about that but I think either opportunity is fine by me I mean I think that's where we're going to lose another professional to come up with. I mean, I have confidence that this applicant will be able to do something here. So, as long as our recording is done. I don't want to open up the public hearing again unless that we absolutely have to. I think we're actually not going to have to. Yeah, I do not want to open the public hearing again and we'll just be to clarify further. Were you going to recap it? If you were, then hold on a sec. Because I do want to give him flexibility to either locate it in the planter or what is currently shown as the lawn area or could even be in the paved area so long as, at least two up to 324 in the box that ideally grow to the height of those windows or it even or it could be if possible in the landscaping below so long as they accomplish the same. Absolutely and yeah leaving their professionals flexibility to come up with the best solution. Patrick. Patrick you want to recap that make sure you got it? I think that the council can show engaged professional landscape professional, landscape professional for example in Arborist or landscape architect to determine the number of 24 inch box trees and either the planner strip or along the street or landscape turf area that can grow to the height of the window. And that's what I was going to say. The level one. Of the first, yeah. The best West facing story for South. The first South-Fate. Level one, South-Facing. A pair of windows. I guess it would be the Western side of the South-Face, the Western end of the south facing elevation, and Patrick, just to correct one thing, you said along the street, but I don't think it necessarily, somewhere between the street and the retaining wall. You could say on the bank. Whoever is appropriate for them, if they go that direction to locate those trees to accomplish the screening we're talking about. And the other condition will be that the under floor area is an area that gets filled with dirt from the cutting and the operation operations. Okay, I think with those two conditions would anyone like to make a motion? Okay, motion to approve 120 East manner with the 2F or mentions conditions. Okay. Commissioner Yollis has made a motion. Second. Commissioner Mackers has seconded. Let's unmute our microphones. Commissioner Mackers. Aye. Commissioner Yollis. Aye. Commissioner Hillbrand. Aye. Commissioner Saringal. Aye. Chair Scalz. Aye. Passes 5-0. Congratulations. Thank you. I have to read my script now. Any decision made by the Planning Commission on the above items may be appealed to the City Council by filing a letter with the Planning and Building Department within 10 calendar days, following the date of the decision, describing the basis for the appeal, and accompanied by the $1,083.0 appeal fee. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Can we take a quick break? And then the next item is 316 West Blightdale. And I will be recusing from that because I'm the applicant. So vice chair, sirarenkel's taken over. Quick break. Oh, she's starting the ball. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you for getting rid of the power. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Good night. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's great. Where do you think it was all about? I'm afraid I take this through. Oh, yeah. You have a good feeling about it. Yeah, we got good. Oh, man. Hey, man. I can't see it. Let's see it. You were up in Eugene. Eugene, you know, we had to go to the end. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, because we've got family friends to all the kids soccer years that he just keeps talking about. Oh, you tired. You've got to go to Ben, and Oregon. It's got like everything. You can ski from there. You can mountain bike. You can hike. You can kayak and raft and it's like, that's the place to go. And he's like, I want to fix up my house and read it out I want to move to bed and we were having beers over at the junction I've got a friend from the college who moved up there recently. He's been one of the week there for a while. So that's his class. You know, I was seeing a story house in the East of the vision, just a short walk from. He opened the space area and I was like, this is nice part of the building. It was good because it was a warehouse. I liked it, but I wasn't quite as happy with it. It was a really good house. I like that the guy listen It's all kind of a planet on it Oh, you can just move with you can just move Oh nice. Oh wow. Really? I'm sorry. Why? I have no idea. I was brought to you. So, beautiful. 10 for you. Yes, I'm glad to have you. I was dad and 10 for me. I was not the support of this event. You know the titles. So, there are like, you know, that's like, a little section of that. No, no, no, no. Oh, yeah. I'm just saw it. I saw it. I saw it. I saw it. I saw it. Oh, yeah. I saw it. Oh, yeah. I saw it. I saw it. I saw it. I saw it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Peyton knew it was like, well how are we going to convince Peyton to go from, because it was spring break. And I was like, well, I guess you were a good jackness, a college tour that he's going to do at Uvo. But I want to go skiing. So, hey, simply went. We went to, we went skiing at Elham and then we drove and actually we just got into the license. So he ended up driving over the past and going in dark while it was raining with all the tracks. And then coming down into Ashland and then, oh my god, was that a... He became a pretty good driver and I was like Well, he's in a I Then we spent the rent and did pretty well. And then we spent the night there, and I was just like, well, can I do something? And make it fun for paid, so she's not just going to go and do it. And so I shopped and found shaking places where they did get all the things. So this is a very generic video with what I went back to that area. It was kind of rare. It was like, and then we added up a more of this kind of up on a minute setting with the shadows of the valley with the marital use of the grigdies. It sounds like, yeah, where is this? It's in New York City. You didn't even go there for six. It's a time of development. And that's the temperature error. It did see second show. I'm sorry, you're all injured. We're going to practice your one-on-one. You're going to practice your one-on-one. One-on-one. Okay. You've got a thousand units. You know the cyclical units. Yeah. That's really good. Very nice. So, just about you. So, I'm going to stay in the pressure. That's not the correct way. You all stay? You're going to be able to stay in the pressure. Yeah. I'm trying to make no value. You know, one billion times. Oh, you can do it for Patrick. You can have a back in what you want. Yeah, it's just a stack of this. You have a stack of this here. Oh. You will probably use it all the day to see my goal. Because I understand. Use it all the day. Just take this. Just take this. Just take this. Uses up, boys. This doesn't matter. And. You use up all the tape on the trees. And you know, the old trees, there are these. Those are the least two-gallers you can use every budget. Hey, man, we're just trying to replace this mess about there. There you go. We'll be chatting. You still have a good place is put in there. Did you see the stairs? Is that all on? There's a door. Oh, you know what I thought? I thought I was going to be talking to you. You know, I was trying to. It's a trick. I was thinking this thing, but I don't want to take away. Is it long? Do you want to keep my hair fixed? I think you do that there because it has some scale itself. So I'm just going to tell you what's happening to do it. Because it's a little bit of a hassle to do it. And don't charge anything. I didn't do that. He's a chairman. We're trying to guide the front down and then deal with it. Okay. The right-hand side is chair. So we got like 40 minutes or so left. So we're just going to do 10 more minutes to start. So the next item is 316 West Blightdale Avenue and just a note this is a study session. So we'll be advising the applicant. We will not be making a specific recommendation during this meeting. So can we have a staff report? Sure. Yeah, this is a study session for 316 West Blightdale Avenue. It's, the project is on a 8400 square foot lot that's mature, has mature redwood trees. It's a vacant lot that was occupied by home up until 2007 when it was demolished. And there's an existing retaining wall that's along the front edge of the street that is within the city's right away. The proposed home would be about 2600 square feet with a two car garage a 515 square feet to you, driveway and parking space within the public right away, front decks and the rear patio and the proposal is to preserve the mature redwood trees and remove one smaller Redwood tree. It's about I think six inches in diameter This is site plan a main floor plan. We can go into these later if we need to There's a fairly large Garage and basement area that occupies the lowest level The main level includes an ADU on the right side of the building above the garage and storage area. And then the second floor is the bedrooms. And the roof is flat. Colors are stucco, white, gray, black window frames, gray panel sighting, black window frames. And let's see, cedar sighting. So the applicant had some specific questions for the commission to weigh in on regarding design review, sorry design guide and compliance, meaning the parking, height, bulk and mass and the grading. So how does the commission feel about this project in terms of the design guidelines? And we'll get into this a little bit more. So there's two parking spaces proposed within a garage plus about a 17-foot long space in front of that that could accommodate a compact space. And then there's also a proposed parking space within the city's right of way. One thing we're noting here is that That public parking space is a public parking space because it's within the city's public right away for the street And it must be publicly accessible by retaining the existing retaining wall It would appear like a private space and wouldn't be very usable to the public and probably discourage public use so DPW would like to see that retaining wall removed so that it looks more like a public parking space. And that there's a fair amount of excavation required for the access and parking, even though it's not a steep lot, but there's just a lot of material behind the retaining wall and where the driveway and parking and garage is proposed. As far as height, bulk and mass, their projections on the building and color material changes the break of the visual mass, but the building volume is still fairly blocky and if you look at, you know, kind of take away those sort of projecting elements, there's some massing there that might, you know, the commission may want to see some more adjustments in's some massing there that might, you know, the commission may wanna see some more adjustments in the building massing. And of course, you know, when viewed from the front, there's the garage level and then two stories above that. But in this view, it's taken from above, you know, kind of at the main level, but that's not what you see from the street. So, you know, you're a little bit larger from the street. So the commission should comment on the massing. As far as grading and topographic changes, there's a fair amount of grading proposed here in Off Hall for a site that was previously developed with a single family home. Obviously that home was both lighter on the land than this one. There's a lot of basement area that's not necessary to be excavated. That could be removed from that level. Play stairs were on the site and avoid that grating for storage. Stairs that come down to the garage and the mechanical room. So that's a potential area where there could be some reduction in grading. Also, the rear yard patio extends out of ways at the finished level of the main floor. And if that were to step up higher, so I step up a couple feet to that patio level, that would reduce some grading. Potentially, that could be pulled back a little bit from the redwood trees as well to give them a little more breathing room from the retaining walls. Some of those retaining walls are six to eight feet high where that patio would extend back. So if that were raised up and pulled back that could reduce those retaining walls. So take a look at that. And also as I mentioned before the driveway and parking areas could be potentially reduced to cut back on grading as well. And we don't have an arbor support yet, but like I've said, there's some exclamation retaining walls close to some of the trees, especially on the left and rear. So we'll learn more when we have a grading and drainage plan and an arbor support. I think the applicant intends to preserve the trees, but it may be necessary to pull things back a little bit just to ensure they're held. So, you know, pending more details on a actual complete design of use in the middle, we can evaluate that information more. But this time the applicant would just like some input on the proposed design. And the applicant is a planning commissioner with some experience in this area, so he understands a lot of these issues, but he's looking for feedback from the commission. With that, yeah, we've received one letter of support from the neighbor on the applicant, has done some outreach with neighbors, but we haven't had any other correspondence yet. So I've summarized issues here, parking, driveway, and the public parking in the right of way. Like I said, that needs to change a little bit to be meeting our standards. As far as height, book, and mass, commissions should weigh in on what you think about, what we have here and also regarding the greeting and retaining walls and topographic changes, whether or not the commission filter should be some reduction in that and if you want to make any additional comments about potential tree impacts like I said we don't have a lot of details now but you know I think the commission shares the idea of protecting the tree that's just a matter of learning more about the status of the trees getting in our report and upgrading drainage ground plan to really see how the project would affect them. So that's my brief report and of course the applicant's going to present his project project but I'm available for your questions now. Do any commissioners have questions of the staff? Commissioner McGrath? Thanks. Thanks for the report. I'm wondering is there any information about the original house that was there? I wonder if there are any lessons to be gained from all the questions. I mean I could do some more digging. I didn't think it was relevant given that we have a bacon site except for some retaining walls. Yeah, I just wasn't sure. For example, in the middle of the parcel there's some rocks placed down. What looks like it could be a seasonal creek and I'd wondered if drainage was an issue and maybe that led to. I really don't know. I'll tear it down. Maybe applicant has more info. Okay, yeah, I'll ask him too. All right. And then also on parking, just to understand the requirements then. He's essentially got five spaces, two in the garage, two in tandem, and then one off to the side which is in the public right away. So I gather that space on the public right away counts toward three are required, right? Three spaces are required, one of which can be located in the public right away. And if that space that's in the driveway is, the space is in the driveway in front of the garage may not be deep enough to count toward the actual dimensions for a space either standard or compact. One of them appears to maybe be 17 feet deep which could meet the standard the compacts parking space. So that might be the parking requirements may be met entirely on site just by having three spaces. That was really what I was getting at. One of those tandem spaces could count. Yeah. Yeah. So the space excavated in the public right away on the other side of the retaining wall, that's not necessary. OK. OK, thanks. That's it. Any other questions? Commissioner Heather Wharton. Okay, thanks. That's it. And whether it question, commissioner Heather Wren. So just on that same topic, there's only three required because the ADU doesn't require one. Correct. But the applicant is is wanting to as an amenity to add an additional space. Correct. But if he's not required to tear down the wall, right? No. if he's not required to tear down the wall, right? No. And it's not because it's legal non-conforming even though it's in there. And so it's not like DPW is say, no, that's in a right away, you gotta take that away. It's, they're just like commanding it. Yeah, we're saying if he's proposing to put a parking space on the other side of that wall, it needs to be a publicly usable space. And if that wall's there, it's gonna look like a private space. Right, I saw that, but he's not required. He's only, they're just saying you can't put a parking space behind the stone wall in any case. Because it's in the right of way, so you can't really do that. Well, you can put a space there with, you know, per DPW's design requirements. Well, I would use a remote. And they're okay with that but it means make it look like and make it usable to the public. Yeah, okay. But it's not like they're saying you have to take the stone wall away. No. Okay. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a nice amenity, but also it's it's a narrow stretch of West Bliftele, which is as we know, serves a very large area as a emergency access area. So taking that wall out and making that that space deeper for general public access could be good for fire department access and other serve other purposes serve as another parking space available to the neighborhood. So we're not opposed to a space there. I just want to make that clear. Just the current design by keeping a retaining wall which may not be able to keep you, you know, excavate on the other side of it. I don't know how it's designed, but I don't know. Okay. Okay, I just got follow up question to. Sure. So the stone wall that's there now is in the public right away. Yes. The whole thing along the street. Okay. And that's more or less in line what he's proposing for a new retaining wall. Right? He's planning on keeping the existing retaining wall there. Is that what that is? OK. I mean, I walk by there all the time. It's a beautiful stone wall. Looks like it's been there 100 years. So it's kind of part of the neighborhood. That's why I'm asking. It would be real shame to lose that, even though I don't know when it was built but you don't get that kind of masonry work all day you know every day so it's just one of those things you know if you ask the Department of Public Works yeah take out those those redwood trees because we want this tree to be 16 feet wide or whatever it is it's like I don't know are we designing around are we designing around the automobile? Well, this is keeping the wall and having a space that is still designing around the automobile. It's just designing and such that it really appears as a private space and we don't like to let people do that. No, I understand that. I understand if he's making that a parking place. So that could be, I mean the wall could be sort of removed in that wall material, or you could replicate that, you know, on other retaining walls that are visible to the public, but just to make that, you know, more easy to get in and out for the public, if you want to have that there. And if it's that. Anyway, that's just, if it weren't a parking space there, then you wouldn't necessarily, you wouldn't have to excavate more behind the stone wall. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. Any other questions? Commissioner Yolos. Thank you. My only question is regarding the six inch diameter red wood tree. Would that require a tree removal permit? No. Thank you. Any other questions? It looks like you're pondering commissioning all this. Oh, you're reading, okay. I'm reading the same guidelines. Just on the, I'm assuming the applicant is going through the study session because it's good plot this but also because it's a linchpin for his strategy for moving forward or not with the trees. Without an arborist report, if the trees become an issue, a little bit too far down the line, could you have a little bit of that? Let me just say, I know you're going to talk about that a little bit. So this is a risk of a study session, right? We comment on what's submitted to us, and that's what we have. And the applicant needs to understand, you know, there's no story poll requirement. So we don't have any comments on that. There's a lot of things that we comment on what we have in front of us. It's just to provide feedback, you know, the next stage would be full design of you submittal story polls, you know, a lot more detailed review and comments. So it's not like this is the only time you have to comment on this project. Just, I'd say try to respond to the applicant's questions about is this appropriate for creating parking and height building mass, et cetera. The other stuff, I'm just pointing out, we don't know about trees, but I am saying, there's a lot of excavation proposed close to some of these trees, that may be a problem, and we will learn more about that, but I just wanted to highlight that as an issue that we will look at again, more detail of this proceeds. Thank you. Just a little more nuance on that parking space that we've been talking about in the wall. It sounded like from the discussion that A, the wall could stay or and or could it be replaced? Well, let's say there's no parking space back there for just a second, but the wall is there. Yeah, and keep it well. Okay. Yeah, we're okay with that. I mean, I think the opening for the driveway is essentially where it is now. It's just been filled in with dirt or something. Maybe it's a little wider to accommodate this proposed driveway. But what I'm trying to say is that somebody designed a parking space in the public right away with the line this year, you know, we don't want people to make private spaces in the public right away. Right so it sounds like an alternative since there are The requisite three cars actually does a potentially fourth one without me in that space. So the car count is not the issue. It's the putting a parking space, a private parking space or visually a private parking space in a public right away. So just that's kind of the distinction. Yeah, and I'm trying to clarify also that this is more or less a DPW Direction it's it's not really something that you need to have a lot of purview in here I think you could represent or reflect that the commission likes the wall You'd like to see the wall remain or as much as possible or whatever But what what DPW's policy is here is that They don't want people building private spaces in public right away. So I think as long as designed to accommodate, you know, if you want to have a space there, make sure the public can use it, make it look that way. Okay, thank you. No further questions it sounds like. Can we hear from the applicant? Yeah. And just I wanted to remind everybody that we do have the clock ticking on the video feed too, and it will have to have us manage to. We're trying to finish by 9.45 if possible. Is that what you're in? Yeah, 9.40 if we can. What happens if we go over? And it'll have to pause for a few minutes to, or start a new recording. Oh, okay. pause for a few minutes to or start a new recording. Okay. Good evening commissioners. Kevin Skiles speaking on behalf of the proposed project here for new home and ADU, 316 West Blighthtail. The rendering that's in your pack is, I would say a little cartoonish. And so I have a rendering here. I would appreciate if we comment I'll be happy to go back and forth between these slides. But these we've been able to move a little further along since those drawings were developed. So I think this is a little better representation of what we have proposed in the plans in a 3D visual. So the site. It's not moving forward. Did I just hit this to make it go forward? Let me see. Oh, moving forward for you. Oh, okay, perfect. So the site is one of these really magical mill valley redwood forested sites in the canyons. It's got some pretty incredible Redwood trees that are up in this part of the site that really all of the adjoining neighbors enjoy. I mean, there's this kind of untouched forested area here. And those were parts of the site where I felt you know the strategy would be to protect them absolutely you know don't touch them and really focus the efforts for developing the site in the open flat sunny area where the prior home was located as well and which is away from the trees. There's also a grove of redwoods down here that straddle the property line between 325 and the subject property. Those also, I thought, you know, quite important to protect those and to keep the home in the area that's away from that and keep the driveway access away from areas where there'd have to be excessive cutting into potential root areas of those trees. The rock wall that is a long west-blight dale is fantastic and absolutely the strategy is to keep as much of that as possible. Just riffing off the conversation that was just being had, I would much rather lose this parking space than lose part of this wall. So, you know, if, if, if, where we land tonight is, you don't need that many parking spaces, that would be the sacrificial and you just keep more of the wall and keep the entrance to the driveway, the minimum that it needs to be to get through the wall. And then the home itself is being in the location we described is down hill from the two side yard neighbors. Their homes are up higher on the hill, which allows for great privacy between the side yards. And really, I think the balance, which I would love your opinions and comments on tonight, is we have a balance between, and this section shows it kind of well, how much the home is nestled and bunkered into the site is particularly at the lower level to keep the height down. Right now we are well under the double setback 35 foot height for the tallest part of the home, and we're well under the 25 foot height limit for the single setback parts of the home. But I agree with the staff report that that results in more cut and off haul than we probably typically see on a home with a 20% slope lot. And so that's something I think I'd love to get some feedback on is is this achieving the right balance or would we rather see the home? I don't think the home is going to move further back in the site or further forward because of setbacks and Requirements for dimensions of driveway and garage etc But the home probably could go up a little bit and have less cut. And I think similarly, the driveway could be a little more sloped and then the garage floor, the garage story wouldn't need to be as tall. But again, that would mean losing probably this parking space because then you don't really have a flat, you know, this would be kind of a ramp instead of a flat garage. So those are because of the trade-offs I'm looking for in the discussion that you'll have. And then I think the other, so yeah, it's height and off-all and parking and off-all. And then I think just to go through it, yeah, here's the runner in the shows materials. Both the neighbors have commented that they like the design in the way it protects the privacy to the side yard and that they didn't think that the height was excessive. As an example, if you're standing on this, just this weekend I was over here, I stood on this balcony. The highest part of this home will be at the underside of that balcony. And so it really will be able to look over the home and not be visually impacted. And really this part of the home, which is the closest to this neighbor, is four feet lower. So it's quite a bit below this deck level. The home that's over here, the bank of Redwoods that's along that property line is so dense that they will not even be able to see the home. When we were on this site, we couldn't even see the house because of the density of the trees. Really quickly on the trees, definitely in our, you know, in our worst report is going to be required. I'm confident just with my many years of building around redwood trees, that the footprint of the home is outside the drip lines for these trees. And so really all that would be adjusted per the arborist report would likely be the location of these walls that are creating the patio space. And if you bend to the site, you'll see that for these trees, this land was benched. So there's a pretty significant cut in the grade, approximately where these walls are already. And so I believe the Arbor support, you know, I'll work with them to determine the exact boundaries with the roots and everything. But I think there will be some amount of retaining walls that will be allowed there to still have those trees be healthy. And then the footprint of the home is significantly outside the drip line of the redwood, so I don't believe that will be an impact. And you know, typically we use peer and grade beams in homes like this for the deeper roots to not be affected at all. This one single redwood right here, I thought it would be nice to have that in the deck, allah like a 1970s mill valley home, you build the deck around the tree. Obviously the arborist would have to give me the blessing to do that if that's not okay, then we would just have a smaller outdoor deck and not have it engage with the tree. But I've always kind of loved that about throwback milvalley homes when you go out on somebody's deck and there's a huge redwood tree in the middle of it. Going back to the rendering, so materials we're going to, we're wanting to use payvers, permeable payvers for the driveway. This is that parking space we're talking about and with the comment from DPW, I would probably be inclined to have the driveway not include this parking space and just have so that we still continue to have this wall. And then the massing breakdown, so I think the original rendering didn't have this second story stepped back from the first story as we now have it and similarly the area over here where there is a two-story wall it's now been broken up with this large overhang of the deck and the chimney that provides, let me see if this is on the... Yeah, the chimney that breaks up the mass so that it's not so long as a two-story plane. And that could be done with a different material. I think that's an opportunity to probably use, you know, a different kind of material, a darker color, something like that to break up that mass. With that, I don't really have any other things to present. I think I'm kind of curious to hear what your thoughts are on the strategy and the height bulk balance with the off-haul and the parking balance with the off-haul, and then just any comments on the architecture and design review guidelines. Do any commissioners have questions of the applicant? Just as a general question. I mean, I think as Commissioner Sringer-Shayne-Rollis. Thank you. As Commissioner Sringer alluded, I think we understand, you know, the situation you're in where you're under contract on this. And you've just mentioned what you'd like us to touch on, but are there any things, like really in particular, that would be most helpful for us to really focus on with detail? Well, I think the site strategy is kind of, like there really isn't a lot of different ways of locating a home on this property. And so I think kind of blessing this site strategy, you know, and the size, the height, you know, how the home is organized with a garage level that's, you know, that's built into the hill with the home on top. I mean, that's a strategy I've done with several homes in Mill Valley. We've seen it several times, it's kind of a classic. But I think that's kind of fundamental, I think, to solving the riddle on this one is to having that be the way we do it. But I would like you to confirm you agree, I guess. Sorry, just two more informational items. My set of drawings didn't print very well and I can't tell what your lot coverage in FAR are. Do you know what they are of hand please? The site data tables attachment one to the report and it's not so it should be easier to read. Yeah I'm sorry. I need reading glasses if I'm going to read something this small now. Let me hold the foyer over here. Yeah, you might need to. The maximum allowable for is 2841 and 2617 is proposed and does that exclude the ADU for correct yeah that's the homes floor area and then the ADU is what at 515 or something right yes so we're about a hunt what a hundred 80 feet under 200 feet under the max FAR and but then we have the ADU. Wait, what was the FAR, was the actual ratio? Oh, ratio would be, So a lot of coverage is 22% right? Yeah. And the FAR, the actual ratio there is, I don't know, you know. 2800 divided by 86, right? What's the math I can do real quick? Like 26, 17 divided by 28 I 286 400 right? 84 oh six is the lot area Okay 31 30 yeah, thank you. Yep Thank you Commissioner McRuss That really is a beautiful lot and that stone wall. I just I Picture asked there so I like what you're trying to achieve here and Couple of questions then Well first of all do you know anything about the original house? I just wondered for your own benefit if there's any lesson to be learned about the- No, I don't know anything about it. Okay, I was wondering whether there's some- I do know about the rock formation, the little creek, dry creek bed. What is that? So the neighbor up here told me that at some point the prior owner to this home owned this lot and was starting to kind of landscape it the way they wanted and they wanted kind of a dry creek bed And that's what that is and it's not a creek. It's kind of a landscape rock feature I think they were hoping that it would maybe eventually if they kept working on it. Turn into a creek. Turn into a creek. Then I also noticed on the rock wall, there's a newer portion. I think that was filled in when the old house is torn down. There was a driveway there which you're now looking to excavate. But there's a newer portion of the stone wall. And is that where the gap is there? It is. So that is not part of the original wall. That appears to me to be loose rock that was stacked up to hold in the dirt. To hold the dirt that would be. But that would not be part of the masonry wall. And this is a detail, but on the lower right side, you've got this kink in the driveway. That seems like it's asking for an arant teenager backing up dad's car to back into that. And I'm wondering is that to preserve the piece of the old stone wall you've got there or is there some other constraint? I think this is my idea with having a little bit of area here is to allow cars to back up so that you don't have to back into West Blightdale. Well West Blightdale is not that busy of a street. There's cooking down there. And a lot of bicyclists do, and this is at a downhill. And a lot of mountain bikers use this. I would not want to back up. And you know, get away with the fifth parking space over there. Is there still room to turn around? Yeah, you would use this space. For the cars that are like the part here on the driveway, no, they would have to back out. But a car that's in the garage would be able to use this turning motion. OK. And again, the kink in the wall and the lower right, then that's to preserve the stone wall. Oh, yes. OK, yes. OK. And I guess the main issue I saw was the off haul and you know that we're aiming for, you know, as little as possible, but you had 430 cubic yards, which is beyond where we usually aim. So I think there's no single, whether it's that matrix showing the attribution of the off-haul versus the function. So there's no one thing that is the dominant contributor to it, but it does seem like that would be an issue, I think, and there are a variety of ways on this lower level you could deal with that. I think, for example, not having that fifth parking space. Any idea how much off-haul that would save you? Yes. This particular spot right here is like 60 yards. OK. Oh, it's something. It's not huge. OK. I'm sort of fishing around curious what you guys say, but mainly the off-haul was a key issue and I think you've got to do as DPW is saying you can't carve out that private parking space on public land. Anyway, I may have other stuff. I just wanted to get going with that. Any other questions? Commissioner Hullabra. You've got the ADUs on that one side there, but that's not, you're not doing minimum ADUs setback on that property line, right? You're doing a typical minimum setback, and I was just, you would ask about site strategy. It looks like you dimensioned it at the bathroom at six foot and some change. So it's a little bit less than the eight feet that would be required if it wasn't an ADU, but it's more than you. The minimum would be four feet, right? You can go four feet to a property line for an ADU. But the ADU is not too story, it's just one level. So the house above it wouldn't be four feet. Correct. So it's stepped back. So what, no, the, oh, so you've moved that over. So that's, that is six feet, and it's closest. I believe it's like six foot two or four, or whatever's in the plans, because that's the ADU. This is set back. And that's where you get your 8B? Yeah, the full set back. Oh, okay. Exactly. And then what about what's the rule on the garage? It's got to be the 8 feet, too. Okay. I mean, the minimum I could have it could have told me is what you think. The garage wall, even if it's the foundation for the ADU. Yeah. I didn't hear that answer. Could you, could you go to that again? The question about the garage, the garage must meet the regular building setback. The ADU could meet a four foot setback. Well, he's trying to stack it. to 8U, could meet a four foot setback? Well, he's trying to stack it, so that makes it a little hard when you're doing a site strategy. But that's why I was just trying to ask some questions about what your site strategy was on the property line there with a setback to help me understand. Yeah, that's, I mean, I think what Steve brings up is a potential issue where I would have to set this back and cannelly with Haiti or something. If that's the way that's interpreted, I don't know if that is good. It's because the garage is not required for an ADU, so the garage is not subject to a minimum ADU setback required. Right. So it's in caps that just because it's these are kind of. Kevin, where is the, this rendering is a little different than a 1.1, as you mentioned it, you've progressed a little bit. Where's the existing, because that's not the existing opening in the stone wall, which is more in the center of the property, right? So you're, you're going to want to put it where it works with the driveway. So you're- Oh, this one- Rebuilding it or are you using that existing opening? That is the existing opening. Okay, so that's not exactly what's drawn on A1.1 shows it off to the side. Yeah, I think A1.1 is not as accurate as the survey. Yeah, it is drawn. The idea is that the opening that's there is going to be the open. Oh, OK, great. So you're trying to keep it. And even though it's a small opening, it's enough to meet the rules. It looks fabulous. That piece of property is fabulous. So, all right. So the goal is, don't look at A1.1. It's not like you're going to move the opening and then reuse the stone and try to build it back. You're going to try to keep it as it is. We're going to keep it. Okay. That's awesome. All right. So that was my main question. And then, you know, I think the way you've located a house down the hill, and the, you know, we can talk more about the other stuff. But I agree that maybe that back patio needs to tear us a little bit potentially to deal with low line routes that head out horizontal. And then storage room, you know, I wonder the question is based on staff's comments about that seems like a lot of excavation there. The commitment I would definitely make is that I didn't size any equipment at all at this point. And so I can make that the mechanical room in the storage room as small as they possibly can be to still hold any water, cisterns and battery backups I'm doing and I'm sure it can be smaller than what's shown right now. All right. That's all I have for now. Okay. I just, I have a couple of questions following up on the setback on the, I guess it at the drawings, I thought that was a very clever strategy of the ADU taking advantage of a lesser setback and then stepping the house back, but now that we discovered that unfortunately the garage needs to go back to the full setback. Do you have any thoughts about that? It seems that your garage width is probably minimum so the whole thing, I don't have to shift over. What are your thoughts about that? Because that's of all the setbacks and heights and the basic requirements, that edge is the most clever and the most sort of, it hits all the different, the garage, the 80-U, and the main house, what do you think? Yeah, what I think will happen is you're right, the garage will slide over, that doesn't mean fully change the driveway access to everything, because it's only, I believe, one foot eight or two feet that it needs to slide over. I would imagine, so this wall right now has a pop out and then it goes back. So I would imagine this wall would probably slide over with the garage, but this would probably stay where it is because that isn't, that's on grade. So along that, by the time you get to hear, this foundation for this back part of the first story, it's like on grade. It's not above the, I mean, it could be its own foundation outside of the garage, because it's not, once you get to about here, this is grade. This is on grade. It's only here where it's up on top of the garage. So this wall would probably slide over with the garage, but at this point that foundation would be where it is. So I don't believe that would move. So I'm looking at 820, that line is also extends back as mechanical and storage. So I guess this might be a question for Steve and or the applicant about. Oh, like can you build a basement in a setback? Can you build a basement? No, no. And I'm looking at the site plan, a 1.1, and it's showing the 8 foot 6 inch setback, and it shows the main level compliant with that, except for the bathroom projection. It's only the bathroom, you're right. Sorry guys, I forgot about that. And then the garage is fixed. We fixed that setback as well. We fixed that problem, guys. Sorry about that. I'm the garage. We fixed that setback as well. We fixed that problem guys. Sorry about that. I'm confusing you guys. It's only this bathroom that is closer to the side yard. It's only this bathroom that's taking advantage of the ADU setback. Okay. The rest of it is not. Sorry. I didn't. Oh, that's that's a good, that's a good clarification. So, a lot of projects in the office. Just to recap that, that East Side Wall, except for the pop out for the bathroom is compliant. Yeah, that's the E.U., the garage, and the house. Yeah, is that correct? I think the pop out's compliant too, because it's part of the E.U. Oh, okay, right. And it's that grade. It's like here it's so it would be a foundation outside of that basement yeah well the the corner the corner of the living room at the ADU that is an eight foot six if that's the corner of the garage yes that's the minimum right Right there. Yeah. So that's the minimum setback. Right. That's a compliance setback for the size of the line. The front corner is going to be eight. Yes. Okay. So it just looks like the site plan just needs to be updated then. It's not like I just glanced at the clock. It's 9.45. Do we need to take a break right now? I can check and see if you guys... We'll take a break because of the technology here. Make sure we have enough tape to... We've poured this for posterity. Is it really? You want to get to the neighbor. You know, if there's public comments too. I'll open the public one. Okay. there's public comments too. We're about ready to make a transition to public comments here so maybe that's a good Looks like we have another question. Are we going to another question. Are we at a take now? If you want to record it, let's pause and re-reboot. Yeah, because we might just miss it a little bit. Thanks. No, it's because he in order to record this on the hard drive or whatever, he needs to swap out something to continue recording. So we're on pause. Yeah. So maybe take a two minute break and come back if you want to or just store. Welcome. Our storage got used up by the tree discussion. You filled up the hard drive. It's like off-home data off-home. If you would have read from the beginning, we'd still be going. We did the sketch. We could have just given the sketch of the trees in the planters. But that would have been the end of it. Exactly. It's his fault. I don't know. Somehow it's probably Steve Rouse's fault. Oh, thank you. That was quick. All right. So we're back on tape and back in session. Do we have any other questions for the applicant? Is that a yes commissioning all this? Yeah, questions. Kevin, you know, I'll deliberate on this, but just ask a question. I mean, this is a super special spot in Mill Valley, like one of the quintessential canyons, and you know, there's a lot of spectacular homes and landscape. There's those two lamps, you know, to the east of it, right on that rock wall, the spectacular rock wall. There's those, this kind of magical ferngrove to the West. Just curious to what extent all that figured in as you came for, put together this proposal. I know you didn't have as much time as you probably wanted, but just kind of curious what extent context and site and both natural and build all figured into what we're seeing tonight. Yeah, it has everything to do with it. I mean, I thought the most important part, I've been to the site probably about 25 times in the last six months. And this, the light at different times of the day back in here, and I mean, I've like laid down on the, you know, pine, the redwood leaf needles and stared up, and I mean, preserving this as untouched as possible is just absolutely fundamental, I think, to the strategy here. And then the other thing that's really beautiful is the late afternoon kind of canyon light that comes filtered through all of these trees is really pretty magical. And you get some of it, and maybe in March, April and October, November coming straight from the south, but mainly I think it's this western light. And so a lot of the windows, a lot of the rooms are oriented to take advantage of that light. So the kitchen as an example has glass on three sides. This corner window for living dining kitchen, we'll receive a lot of that light. And then on the upper floor, the primary bathroom and the primary bedroom have again two sides of light on that. And so, kind of, yeah, that's, yes. Can I refocus my question a little bit? Yes. I guess, to what extent did you factor in, especially like the built environment, when thinking about doing a flat roofed, more modern, highly articulating, highly, highly diverse material colors came versus something that's frankly, I'm not saying you should do something very traditional like everything around it necessarily but to what extent did all that figure into the design approach not just site strategy what you're talking about. You talked about the context with the neighborhood. Yeah, context with the material surrounding the car. Other architectural materials, for sure. In this part of the canyon, there's a lot of shingled homes. As an example, there's a lot of homes that have more traditional roofs, either gamble roofs or pitched roofs, for sure, craftsmen-styled roofs. That's something that's really important. I've done that before. I mean, 23 Jains is an example of that. That's a modern house with a very craftsmann styled roof and overall form. Your question was how much did I think about it? And how I think about it is really, I wanna make those beautiful, elegant house I can that takes advantage of all the natural beauty. And then I wanna have a landscape program that either Doesn't spoil anything in the case of the rear uphill part of the yard or Compliments it really beautifully in the in this part of the yard. I clearly haven't gotten there yet I mean we haven't really spent any time on that But if you look at the at the property next door they have a beautiful beautiful garden and I would like to continue kind of their They have a beautiful, beautiful garden. And I would like to continue kind of their garden strategy throughout our front yard. And that, I think, would be a way of really honoring that part of the block. You keep the rock wall, match their beautiful garden with our front yard, which I believe we can, because we've got a good amount of area here. And that, to me, would be the way of integrating with the neighborhood. Thank you. All set? One more question. That I'm really dug in on the retaining walls in the backyard six to eight feet. It says here. I think like right here might be six to eight feet. These are more like three and a half to four feet. Okay. Yeah. I was curious how much digging you're doing. This seems a lot more. The site is taller here than it is here. Yeah. And have you thought about terracing that somehow or where you did get up to 6.8 feet? I think it would just all depend on the arborists' report. I mean, we would like to have the most amount of usable flat patio back there while still protecting the trees. And no one can see any of this from the street or either side yard. So it isn't like it violates kind of our designer view guidelines about not having large retaining walls and you can see from the street. So it really only be the residents of this home and see it. Right. Okay. Okay. And then I think final question on the off haul issue again and you touched on it earlier the mechanical room and the storage room behind the garage or next to it. What are your thoughts on trying to reduce off haul by changing those? Yeah, I'll commit to making those as small as they possibly can be to locate the equipment I want to have in there, which is battery backup and water systems. So, I know it can be smaller than what's shown. So right now I'm showing it just lining up below the floor above. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'll disengage that as best as I can. You think gray water, recycled water when you say it's a system? Like fresh water for irrigation and things like that. I don't know if we'll do a full gray water system where we're using water from shower and laundry and things like that. I don't know if we'll do a full gray water system where we're using water from shower and laundry and things like that to store. Stormwater, what's the storm? Yeah, stormwater attention. For the purpose of emergency water and also irrigation. I know it's early in your design but I'm wondering if it would be helpful for us to talk about some range of off-haul that would be appropriate. We've done that with other applicants. Maybe we can come back to that in our deliberation. I would say less. Yeah, well that'll just be. Maybe if we if we deliberate on that we might have a series of ideas and then we can circle back and see which one stick. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I just want to ask one question so I understand the site strategy now it relates to the. So this stair that you see on the lower level, that stair goes all the way down and becomes the back of the garage. Yeah, so that's so you can, yeah, exactly. Get up to the main home from the garage, yep. Right, so that was one of Steve's staff's comments about about that. Having that stair there is a significant amount of grating to do the stair and the storage which then stacks. Does the storage stack under the full ADU? The storage back wall is yeah is that exactly. So you're just saying I would be I will come I'll commit to disengaging that didn't make the storage as small as possible Okay, and it's not it's not the that's the perimeter of the ADU basically Right now that lower yes basement. Yes Okay, and with regards to the stair I mean You can't go you can't go out and go up around well you can't go out and go up around? Well, you can't go out through a garage door. You'd have to put a mandor in, which means now you're getting wider by three feet. So that doesn't really help. OK. One more question? Kevin, I'm glad to hear you talking about possibly lifting up the home a little bit and maybe receding it, setting it back a little bit further and whatnot. I guess I'm curious in that spirit, and by the way, the home kind of generally, I mean, if you can show a section where the height is is toward the front the max height is toward the front rather than the rear I think optimally I think we don't like to see that you know the opposite. I'm just curious within that spirit of lifting up and maybe setting back a touch and maybe pushing high back if you consider inverting the floor plan. And that way, with the, that way you'd have the open space, the common area potentially contiguous with the rear outdoor yard space, indoor outdoor access. So you could still have your rear yard program. But obviously you're, you're living your bedrooms down on the floor floor. I mean, on an upslope lot, you typically don't do that. You see the inverted floor plan using a downslope lot. I mean, it's not that it's impossible, but it's less common. On an upslope lot. I'm trying to think if I've ever done that. I don't think I have. I can picture like a central stairway going pretty much straight up, you know, better down the side and you go up and you go right up into, you know, skylight. The question is that I consider, and I didn't, on an absolute plot, I kind of like have a, but, but, I mean, I understand you could do it. I get the conventional view and feeling and whatnot, which I, you know, but just a thought because I, yeah, where I think the real opportunity is now that I don't need to have this so mellow because it's not accessing a parking space that's tucked behind that wall. This can be more aggressive and this whole thing probably goes up to 1.5 feet. And so all of this off-haul is no longer there. Because this is oversized because of this. If this goes up up that solves a Fair bit I'm where you say where you say you think the garage enters how relative to gray do you think? You know that enters like here like two two and a half feet up and then you just have a modestly sloped Drive doesn't need to be where as far forward as it is or do you think it could? You've pushed it back then there's more awful so I I think keeping the minimum distance between the garage door and the property line is important. Because otherwise you get, you start pushing it back further into the hill. Yeah, I guess the section shows it. Do you have any sense for how much off haul you reduce by getting rid of that onside or that parking space behind the wall and what you're talking about just Yeah, 60 yards But then but then it affords you the opportunity to make this steeper and then this whole thing comes up another To let's call it to the combination of those moves are you be saying those moves could be well over 120 maybe 150? Yeah, okay. Yeah moves could be well over 120, maybe 150. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it could be significant. Thank you. Okay, I think I'll save some of my additional comments for deliberations and in this point, see if it's okay with everybody. See if there's anybody wishing to speak on this item. And if so, please state your name and address and take about three minutes. I'm Suzie Ann Childress and we're at 350 Cordomadera Avenue, which is across the street. So it's our backyard and side yard that this house will be sitting behind us. So, and I have to say it's beyond impressive what you guys are doing. First off, I'm just blown away by the depth and the questions and the knowledge. So I've just, I'm giving your time and doing this is amazing. So thank goodness for you guys. The comments you've made, I just think are wonderful. So I would say I love that the trees are being kept and that they're a huge factor in this design because they're a huge part of the canyon and our house has a lot of trees that we've worked really hard to protect and that we care very much about. And I actually like the house sitting a little lower because of how it will feel to our house. So, but I love the stone wall and I agree that it's an important factor in keeping it. I would even like to see a little landscaping in there and I don't think the additional parking space will ever be used by anyone. Just the flow of humans and traffic in there, it just wouldn't be somewhere people would park so I don't think that would be a necessary factor. Well, there's been a lot. So the trees are wonderful how you're working them in and protecting them. And I agree the back of that house is just magical or back of where it'll be sitting and beside Sean and Catherine. And I think it's really beautiful. I would love a tiny buffer between us and the house where the stone wall is right now. There's landscaping. And if there were some trees in there, that would be really nice to kind of soften the impact. And I do remember the existence, we've lived in our current property for 15 years. And so I was there when they took that house down. And it was a small house, and it sat facing toward the east. And the driveway is off center. I mean, it seems where you have a located, is the is off center. I mean, it seems where you have it located is a little off center. And the rocks were part of landscaping that the former couple who owned that house for a long time up above lived. There is a lot of water flow during the rainy season. I mean, it's downhill. We're further downhill to the creek, so. But it was a fairly small, or I wouldn't even want to guess on square footage, but I guess it was pretty small. Let's see. Yeah, so I might vote for a little more off-haul, keeping the house a little lower, but I don't know how that'll end up coming out with protecting the land behind the Brockwall. So I don't know. That's a hard one. I would agree. Let's see. Yeah, I guess the only thing I do have some comments on is the design. Let's see. Yeah, I guess the only thing I do have some comments on is the design. And it was mentioned by all of you, and I think about the manner drive house discussion and some of the comments made. And I know you're early on in the planning phase of this. It will be overlooking our house and our yard. And so like I mentioned, there are a lot of windows on the front and how that reads for both properties, I think is important. And I think there's a lot going on in the design. Full concussion, I'm a designer. I work in a lot of projects in town. So I love the idea that you guys brought up with a manor house of simplifying and keeping it more elegant. There's a couple other modern houses in the area that I think have done a really nice job of that that kind of fit in and feel a part of things. So I just feel like there's a little more going on. If we'd like to see. Since we have so few people come into the pros out, you can run just a little bit longer, but if you could get your kids in the office. I'm passing my time. You're quite a bit past your time, but I don't think I'd have it. It wouldn't be the first time. I was in a journey too so. Well then we're going to catch you off right now. Yeah, I was in environmental attorney. You know that, I made me, but so anyway I would just you know, I love all the thoughtfulness being put into protecting a lot of aspects of the property. I just love to see the design worked a little more into keeping with the neighborhood and the feeling of the area. Thank you very much. Is there anyone else that has comments? I see none. So at this point we'll close the public hearing and bring it back to the Planning Commission for deliberations. I wonder if I might lead off because I'd love to get some questions to what I have to say. Is that okay with folks? Yeah, because I do want to talk a bit about context, a little more about context. And, you know, by the way, I assume Vice Chair Sirengel, you know, since this is a study session, we can, some degree have some interactivity here, comments, responses, either ongoing or at the end. Okay, great. So just to provide a little bit of background. So I've had been coming to Move Alley for 37 years, mountain viking, since I was about 18 years old and coming to the railroad grade, which is just, I don't know, quarter mile past the site. And so this has always been, I mean, when I came here, it's just such a quintessential part of this town and just as very magical that canyon is just so magical to me and has great memories. But it's also just beautiful. I mean, the Reblitz are really spectacular and magical. And it really makes Mill Valley what it is. And it's one of like, me like the two primary canyons like that. And you know this area you know is really really unique and special and has a lot of charm to you know and and you know as I mentioned you've got those street lamps just a short distance to the west you know like on the neighboring property and that ferngrove on the property to the, sorry, that was east and then to the west and, you know, the homes like, you know, there's a lot of very special homes that if this, you know, everything is new of it. And it makes me think back to the discussion that we had around that flag pull shape lot home on Throckmorn, which actually was a modern flat roof home. But what was unique about that, and remember that drew a lot of the historic preservation folks from the area out. It drew a lot of them out out and they were very concerned. And the reason I think at least I and I think others did not jump on that bandwagon more was because that home was in sconce deep within a massive redwood grove and you really couldn't see it from virtually any other property. I don't think that's going to be the case here. I mean, it sounds like great, like you're going to really try to landscape it and bring some of that garden over and obviously more than we're seeing here now and removing that parking turn around. Which by the way would be one of the only ones around with a turn around. I think with a mirror, you can be safe across the street. And even if you're backing out, not have that issue. Very few homes have a turnaround in this area. Although I do know that home, you know, bikers do pick up speed going down that hill as they're going toward the grade. I'm one of them, but I think, you know, people will get used to it. You'll have a mirror where you can look out if you're reversing out. So I just want to point out that, I think really especially for your benefit Kevin, because I do think something obviously work here, and I think it's a very special site. But I think to be careful about those same kind of people who in and around this neighborhood coming out saying, and am I going to be very clear, I do not have a design type, you know, a style that I think does belong here, but I think you should be really careful, frankly, about something that feels a lot more modern in this area for fear that you're gonna get, you're gonna pull some people out of the woodwork with something like this, and I do wanna read, because this is not me, this is our design guidelines talk in here, but I just wanna read two or three lines. You know, the guidelines are based on an approach that takes into consideration the interrelationship of individual houses with the neighborhood. Guidelines are provided direction for the planning design and site planning design and neighborhood compatibility and then just one more real quick. The design of single family development should be compatible with the natural and built character of the surrounding neighborhood. And this to me would be very unique and very distinct as proposed. Again, I think you're going to hide a lot of it with landscaping. But what I am seeing, frankly, stylistically does not really jive. And I'm not saying you should build A, B, or C. But to me, I'm just concerned that this, for me, I don't think contextually relation, in terms of the relationships with the adjacent properties, it works very well. I think this design could really work in a lot of other places, but frankly not here. So I do want to be just very straightforward about that and hopefully helpful, assuming you move forward. As far as the height, I think I made a point about the height. I really do feel like the max height should move, ideally move up toward the rear. I have not studied your program in detail, but I do think I hope you'll spend a minute and maybe others will care on that inverted site plan. It doesn't, that doesn't, it doesn't have to be an inserted site plan. I think to do what the guidelines call for doing, which is stepping up into hillsides a little more than this does. That mass that height and mass toward the front, I don't think is, you know, is where it belongs. And I think we heard some concern already from, from some potential neighbors about how they feel about that I don't think they want someone kind of more peering down. I think if it was back and up into the hillside more They would probably feel better and so would anybody kind of passing by again. I know you'll screen it. You would screen it a lot Yeah, I mean, I think sloping roofs, by the way, virtually every home, and I drove it today just to double check, has some form of sloping roof in this canyon. And I really think you want to think closely about trying to do some form of roof slope, especially, you know, not, doesn't have to be entirely bit up and away from the street so that it pulls back in a way and steps down. We've talked a lot about that on other homes and projects. Again, respecting the general context of neighborhoods, and you've been a part of those discussions. As far as a couple of the specific things, we talked about parking, so yeah, I don't know together again. Yeah, I mean, again, I think it, you know, just to talk a little bit, I mean, it doesn't suffer but from a lack of articulation, materiality, color, but I do think it actually suffers because of it a little bit. And I think I made those points earlier so I won't repeat that. But I think there's a lot going on here that goes fine and well actually other places. But I think something much more subtle. And again, with more earth tones that recede more into the background would be more appropriate in this location. Just to speak to a couple of the things Steve brought up, we talked about, I believe we talked about parking, we talked about the driveway. I guess I've spoken about height, not so much about bulk, but I don't per se have an issue with bulk or mass. So long as again, I think it works hopefully a little more back and up into the hillside. You know I definitely think we've talked about potentially getting 150 cubic yards of grading out of there which would take it down to you know the 250 range you know you know talking now about 50 trucks instead of, what's probably about 75 trucks. Again, and we've also talked about other things, I think mechanical storage, et cetera. I mean, I think it's still a lot of trucks running all the way through town, even though you are right on Blightdale. And, you know, they should be able to turn around before they come by the site and load up. That's a lot of trucks running through town. And, you know, obviously we want to minimize it and having talked to Elected officials before you know that takes a lot of toll on our roads every time we had trucks So I think you know your efforts to reduce that as much as possible would be appreciated And we also talked about the retaining wall and I'll just end on that saying you know I think the retaining wall and as you have commented is it really one of the special features of this site and deserves being You know preserved much like that home you have commented is really one of the special features of the site and deserves being preserved much like that home over here on Throckmorton across from the beer works or the former beer works. Really, I don't know if folks, everybody's kind of admired that home lately, but it really helped preserve the charm and just the history of that home, even though they did do in that case a bit of a modern design. But again, it's closer to town where there's to me, a lot more eclectic design than in a location like this. Happy to respond to any questions you may have if and when we get there. Any other questions? Question or have the ban? and when we get there. Any other commissioners? Commissioner Heldman. You've put a lot of work into this and I appreciate the fact that you're you're pulling it towards the street to save the grove. So I think pushing it back I don't know how he could push it back and have any usable space behind that without damaging the redwood trees, even with pears and gray beams. But I think my first impression is the amount of stucco for this part of town. And I guess my first thought was, you know, could you, because you've already got the concrete down below from the garage and the whole thing is very vertical just because of putting the garage into the house, which is the right thing to do. But my thought was if you could have the lower level be a plant, say, where you did use stucco, but maybe not having that kind of third level of a cementitious finish, it just makes it very massive in appearance. And so, and I don't have a problem with a modern home here, and because I think, and I appreciate the comments that you made is how can you simplify this and create a modern home that doesn't bulk so high in the mass. And part of that I think is the way the materials are used like if the stucco stopped it because there's already kind of the gray concrete, and then the gray stucco is going to feel like the base, and then if you could change the material up above, and I understand you're trying to get the contrast. I mean, not quite sure what to call it element, but it's almost like that knuckle that we were talking about before where that knuckle in that original scheme when he came in, it was the stair tower and it was the elevator and it was the taller one in the middle. You know, I wonder, because that's kind of like a monitor skylight in a way, right? You're trying to get the light in there over the entry, which is a cool idea, but I'm wondering, is there, because I think that gives the impression to the neighborhood and the city scape as you're going down, is it really creates a tower element there that becomes more massive, I think. And I'm wondering if there's a way to get this a little bit more low slung in appearance and simplified without losing, I don't think it has to have a pitch roof. I just think that creating a simplified version. But you've got, I mean, you've got a thoughtful plan. And I think, you know, the comments that you were asked about, we already talked about item one and your questions. We kind of resolved that with the parking. The high-pulch and massive of the home meets the design guidelines. I think it needs to be adjusted. I wouldn't want to make it any taller, just because it's so far up in the face of, and I think we, you know, you've, your neighbors made a really good comment that that's really going to be prominent when viewed from, uh, Corden, Madera Avenue and because it is so close to the street, is it how could you get that upward level to not even though you know your floor to floor heights are reasonable? It just, some of that might be material but I think some of that is also that tower. And then the amount of grading, the other comment on the grading, I mean, my gut would say that storage room should go away. And if you really, I can see the logic of why you have the stair there. And I know staff had recommended maybe getting rid of the storage room and the stair, but if you have the stair there. And I know staff had recommended maybe getting rid of the storage room and the stair, but if you have the garage and you don't have to have this high of ceiling in there, so it grades up to the house, so it's not like cutting the driveway. And you have the, so then the driveway, then maybe that's part of the problem of the verticality is that you've got a very tall garage door. And so if that's a little bit more linear looking, rather than be so vertical. And then the ADU glazing that kind of punched window there. Its proportions are, again, really vertical. And the two punched windows up above there are pretty vertical so Everything is kind of stretched into a tall mass But I know it just having that storage room back there just seems excessive if you just lock that off And we compromised and you had the stair because that does make sense to communicate here without having to cut a hole in the side of the garage and And then just look at materials I Think it's that's all I want to hear what my fellow architect has to say Mr. McQuist could you chime in first? Yeah, sure. I agree this is a beautiful location and a historic one too. And you probably know the mountain railway used to come, you know, right? Maybe is that the bridge? I was going to ask you that. There's a mountain railway bridge that is now a footpath in your front yard and it comes you know your future house would overlook. Can you walk it? Well they can. It's all the footpath. You can. From from from from Corda, Madera, you can you can look and see these massive girders underneath their footbridge and it's a beautiful piece of milvalley history. I'm glad you've got it there and your site Kevin is just so picture-esque. I think honoring all of that as you're aiming to do is great. The main issue for me again, off-haul, I think we've identified a handful of things but just for clarity I want to mention that I want to clarify the things that I want to say that I want to clarify the handful of things but just for clarity I want to mention things we've discussed ditching the fifth parking spot. Perhaps raising the level of the garage and steepening the driveway bit and then you mentioned shrinking the storage and mechanical rooms. I think if you did all that, you could get perhaps a couple hundred feet out of this and we'd be down close to 200 cubic yards instead of 430. As close to zero as you can get is the guidance from us. And preserving that stone wall, I think I strongly support that. I think the landscape design, when you have a chance to do it, will make a big difference for your neighbors, all of them to understand how this house will relate to them and the rest of the neighborhood. I think John's comment is an important one. There's an extremely conservative part of Mill Valley culture that just doesn't want anything to change. And I'm sure you'll be faced with some of that in this particularly important historic part of town so you could anticipate people coming out as they did on the Throch Morton House so keeping that in mind you know there could be hordes here or not, but doing what you can to kind of soften the relation of the way you present the house through a landscape plan. And I think your collective guidance on softening, they perceived mass and the height, I guess, mostly more than mass would be, I think a good idea. That's all I got. Thank you very much. So I will first make my own comments and then circle back and try to summarize what we've all said. Let me start with, that I think the general strategy for the sighting of the house and the general massing and the positioning of the pieces of the puzzle seem to be very rational and seem to fit well with the sight. I would like to sort of combine a couple thoughts. Commissioner Hildebrandt talked about a plinth. And Commissioner MacRuss reiterated the strength of the idea of preserving the Stonewall. I'd like to sort of maybe double up on that and combine those two notions. You know, maybe the Stonewall more inspires the idea of a piece of this house and the plinth. If the Stonewall and the stairways and the sight walls and even perhaps the front of the garage were stone like, or stone. And as we've already said, the driveway, if it tips up more and the garage becomes less height, even the driveway surface, if that were of a similar color and material stone, this house could then start feeling like a two-story house sitting on the land. So make the wall, the driveway, the stairs, the plinth of the land, and the simplest way to do it, be just make it out of stone. That might not be the only way to do it, but if the color, if the, if the visual impression were, oh, it's a, it's a two story house sitting on some terraces and stairs and a plent. I think that would be a beautiful thing for the neighborhood. It would take the stone wall preservation idea and make a concept out of it. You build on it, you make it a thing. I think there's a real strength to that. I think that the house really, if it were a house sitting on the land, I think Stuc I think Stucco or light colors just seem to hurt the ability for it to be in context. I personally don't think it needs slope roofs or to look like a ye old fashioned house. I think it can be a contemporary house. But if it were darker colors or wood, you've done this before, Kevin. You can use those, you can use very contemporary materials. But the darker colors and the woods, I think the massing and the articulation is, and the overhang roofs are all working. I think a two-story, woodish, darkest color house sitting on a land slash plent would be something you could make really sing. I do think that every bucket of dirt that you could not take off of here is a good thing. And I think we've kind of outlined them all. If you don't need the fifth parking space, well, put some landscaping in there. And if you don't, if you maybe, the stair, I think the stair is a really sound thing to have where it is. Going all three levels, I agree that the storage, you need some storage, but I think you can craft, you can get a lot of bang for your buck with a really efficient storage idea without making a big room back there. So if that room could go away completely, or if the garage got a little deep yeah I think you if you essentially lose the storage area raise the short and the Florida fluoride for the garage tip up the plane of the do all those things you can you can amount all falls gonna gonna come down to significant you might even you know if actually, if it helped to lift the house up one foot, no one would ever see the difference. And, you know, and so maybe even a little tweak up, you're, you sounds like you got some room within the height limit. So all those things, you could craft, I think, to get the, the off-haul considerably reduced. I think that there was a part of, partly a summary, partly my own thoughts. I have one question about that, the redwood tree in the front. I hope it can stay. You got to make it stay. So you have to, it seems like that would be, you know, really important to make stay. And you know, with the effort to tweak the geometry a little bit or whatever you have to do, going through the deck doesn't seem like it's going to hurt the tree one way or the other. It's going to be wherever the walls are, the foundations are. So just I would just be careful about that. I think that is all I have. So does anybody want to take another little spin around the block here? Yeah, I would like to actually make and then maybe we can give Mr. Skiles a chance to come up here. By the way, before I forget, I just want to say thank the neighbors for coming out tonight. Your input here at this early stage rather than what could be the final night or later is hopefully very helpful to the applicant. So thanks for coming out and sharing your ideas, thoughts, concerns. Commissioner Srirangal, that was a thing of beauty. Really admire it, really enjoyed hearing your comments just now. And that was really fun to hear. What I was going to say before, honestly before you made your comments was, it was some of the same things as I made my comments and actually thought about that home with that preserve the retaining wall. I think it was the darker color and the wood or fiber cement, whatever they use materials, not entirely, but they also did, I think they used some rock elsewhere too, but that actually enabled I think that home to work there well, and I do think you can do modern here, as Commissioner Srirangal said, if you make some of the other moves, the right moves in combination, and I know you think I'm a craftsman kind of person, but I'm not, I really am a modernist, but even more so, I'm a contextualist. And if I could type cast myself. Steven, I just don't mind, there's no VMP. There's no landscaping plan proposed here. But I know the applicant mentioned how these redwood trees screen the building. And there's a redwood tree proposed close to these in a couple of places. So, I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. landscaping plan proposed here, but I know the applicant mentioned how these redwood trees screen the building and This redwood tree proposed, you know close to these in a couple places So a vegetation management plan is required and in some cases depending on the proximity to the home that requires Limbing up to like 10 feet above the structure and that of course eliminates a lot of the screening that is being Considered so yeah, I just want to caution Kevin to talk to the landscape architect and make sure you look at the VNP and what that requires so that you're not losing all this vegetation that you want to preserve. Yeah, no, I love the idea of trying to preserve those trees. I've preserved trees through roofs, decks through decks and roofs before, but we didn't have a woolly designation, even though it's in the Sierra, is actually where we did that and the regulation we have here. So if it doesn't work, I mean, frankly, I was thinking, hoping that maybe some of this side yard to the west there, there's no reason he couldn't actually plant some new redwoods, further out, and more than whatever is required 15 feet away from the home or some Japanese maples or ferns, or whatever you think is appropriate in this contextual and goes with the architecture, which is kind of what our design guidelines speak to. And so I was just gonna say, yeah, I think some more fiber cement here could be helpful. The fact that you guys were talking about the knuckle, I think, right? The center. Yeah. But that's really like two more than double height above your entry there. And would you guys think it doesn't need to be there or what would you suggest? That was one thing that I had on my list of things that come out and I forgot. I think Commissioner Hildebrandt's notion that maybe there's a strategy where that becomes a void. You know, it maybe becomes, because you got two strong masses, you might want to think about that because you're using a really great material wood there, but if we're suggesting that you use wood and or darker material to be more contextual, that's one place where the function behind could be more glass, it could be a separator. I think we should fairly quickly hear, maybe ask Kevin to sort of comment on what he's heard here a little bit before we. So just to finish up, I must have been learning something for you guys, or maybe I heard it, but that's kind of what I was picturing to. I just didn't want to repeat what was said if it was said and clearly was. And then curious to know, I mean, I assume you probably want the ability to park four cars here because there's not a lot of parking nearby in this area, but if you'll speak to that. And I think that's it. I think it'd be good to hear what you think you heard. Thank you. That was very thoughtful, very thorough. I really appreciate it. And you covered what I wanted you to cover with the questions I had and the staff had and then some. So I appreciate that because it's great to get input when we are still, you know, kind of early stage here. And I'm not discouraged that I can't have a beautiful home here, given the comments, it's just going to be, you know, we're going to adjust it and modify it and make it right. Really quick on a couple of the just technical stuff, then I want to get to some of the commentary. So I do think four cars is possible here. And I think since the drive way is going to be wide enough to get to a two car garage having two cars right behind it is going to be fine. And the cut that's in the wall now will allow for that to work. So I do think that will work. Regarding limming up the redwoods, the neighbors, the Carlson's over here, they have been doing that. And so right now, not universally throughout this grove at trees, but most of them don't have any limbs until about 30 plus feet above ground right now. So that kind of has been the pattern with how they've been managed. And I'm in touch with the Arborist who's been doing that. So it'll be nice to have continuity there. Now, so let me get to the rendering, because I think this is kind of a good spot to start. When Commissioner Sarango was talking about, Commissioner Hilda ran his idea of a plinth, and then really kind of a hammering home the idea of using this, that's a beautiful idea. So I'm going to take that and run with it. And so I think that will definitely allow for something more contemporary to gracefully sit on something that's contextual and make that marriage work. That is the assignment I'm coming away from in a big picture way. And now the details of getting the cut and fill and the off-haul right, I think we kind of know what I'm going to do and that you'll see something that's reduced quite a bit. With regards to the materiality, I mean, I think I definitely will study a lot of different materials that aren't stucko, that aren't light gray stucko, and see what might work to make a home that recedes more into the forest, particularly once this starts getting landscaped more heavily. This does, I believe, have the opportunity, given that it's 40 feet or so from the yard to really be a background element and let the foliage be the foreground. And then with regards to the tallest part being where the entrance is, yeah, I'll definitely look at some other options. I mean, I think the idea of the wood being void and the volume is being on either side, that's a cool concept. I'll definitely look at that. I mean, in all honesty, I did not look at that while I was designing the home. So that's certainly an interesting concept. I think how these roofs interact, some work could be done there to potentially, start unifying the top floor. So it doesn't look like three things, which sometimes three things look bigger than one thing. So there's an opportunity there. So I wrote down a lot of notes, and I think while a few of the comments were definitely pretty particular to style, like wanting to see a different style, I think it is possible to have a modern home with flat roofs and have it work, I just got to get this right and get this to work with the context of the neighborhood. And you know, this is this is not really designed. I mean, I spent, as you can tell, probably 10 minutes doing that. That's, I spent 50 hours on the house and 10 minutes on the stair. So some things need to be done to start integrating it really at that level. And so I think you guys definitely saw that. So no questions, no clarification, just want to make sure. I don't think so. I mean I guess I don't want to come back with a project that's a flat roof and like that's a deal breaker for two people on the commission. So if that is a deal breaker, go ahead. Yeah, I just want to say I think we're I don't want to speak for you because I didn't know I heard I think we're all in the same page that I'm yes I think actually a modern home flat roof can work here with what you just described and what you've heard you know blending okay background. Quite or settler but we can't obviously speak for who may ever make come out of the community. But I think once you do that, once you do additional screening and landscaping, and you know, Redwoods, people freaking love Redwoods. So to extent, you can add some Redwoods. I think that would go a long way and building goodwill with the community. OK. Oh, adding them. OK, just smell like, you know, further away from the home that where fire won't have an issue with it. You know, they're going to obviously going to be small. I mean, I know you also want to preserve some views in sunlight, so maybe there's a way you can selectively do a little bit of that. I'll look at something. I mean, I do want to. Certainly it ferns. You know, certainly would definitely. And it could be some, I mean, the nice thing, he's got such a massive grove already to just add an artificial grove. It seemed like if he was to get some contrast like, you know, when you would see, like what I would hike around when I was in Japan when I was hiking around. There was like cedar forests, but then there was a contrast with the maples. And so if you were to put in, you know complemented the ferns, maybe there's Japanese maple, the context that the neighbors were talking about, and I'd leave that up to you. I mean, you know what the idea is there is to spend some more time on it and work on that. But I don't really have, I think Commissioner Surangle kind of summed it up really well and I don't really have anything else to add except for that Throckmorton project that you were referencing before. The nice thing about that, it was very clean in modern, but because it was, it was very low slung looking, right? So it wasn't, it was more of a horizontal massing than a vertical. And I think if you do what Commissioner Surangle talked about and that stone, he's talking about that I'm picturing, is that stone isn't like a limestone that's just decorated in the front, it's the stone color of the wall that's kind of coming and creating a plant, right? So that it's all kind of... Yeah, it's part of everything. It's all that palette. I think the more that the garage lower level becomes not a building, right? The better it is. Okay. I get it. I know exactly what you're talking about. One or two last things, which is one on the curb cut. I mean, it looks pretty narrow there. I assume that's like a one car curb cut or roughly. I would point it out with two car with wide garage fine, the narrower you can reasonably make the actual curb cut preserving that wall better. For sure. And then just to the discussion around preserving the redwoods in the back and, you know, citing and whatnot. I mean, I do think, you know, you suddenly, studied this more than us and I know you haven't studied it fully yet, but I do think there's an opportunity to preserve those redwoods. Obviously lower the front a little bit, and you're talking about lifting up though now, right? Going at working with the grade more, which is going to make it feel taller, even if you pull that little piece out. That may not be necessary. I think honestly the the height of this is significant enough where you if you're doing what Ernest is describing and you raise the floor up to here and then it's sloped and this is the minimal height garage door and the you know this is all kind of like almost feels like stone or earth or something that you're really bunkered into. I don't think this needs to necessarily go higher. This can stay where it is. I think this goes up. Okay. But I'm gonna look at it. Okay, yeah. If you want to, if you want to, it's like a three-course. Yeah. You, you, you just, it's not really something. You have to work, I don't think it's a... Not a strategy to actually lift the house up, but tweaking, you know, if one foot tweak helps, it helps if it doesn't, it doesn't. Yeah, I will definitely, I get where you're going exactly. I will study it. And I think I understand what you're saying as well, a commissioner, you would prefer to see something stepping with the hill instead of kind of a column. Yeah, and by the way, I'm also looking 13 foot floor to floor on that first floor, is that right? Only on half of it. Let me just say that that's a lot. So I mean, I would think, you know, I would think about. I'm careful about that we know we haven't seen you sing is a living level 13 feet is that what we're saying yeah which part which half are you saying is 13 this and this so this is a this is a break in the ceiling so this kitchen in this living room have a 12 foot ceiling height clear yeah so the from the floor of the ceiling. So this kitchen in this living room have a 12 foot ceiling height. Clear. Yeah, so from the floor to the ceiling, 12 feet. And then this is nine. And this is nine. So the floor of floor is 13 to get 12. Correct. Well, I mean, that's all part of what you're going to try to, the idea is to have maybe get rid of the tower, maybe look at that again, what you just mentioned, and try to get what looks like a two-story modern house sitting on this stone plinth. Yeah, I think the comment about being more horizontal is a good one too. I think you've got a good mechanism with your horizontal overhanging roofs. You know, the center piece right now is kind of maybe breaking it too much. It makes the two sides look vertical. You know, somehow if the horizontal's overlapped, or you play with the horizontal, because that'll just visually reduce the height. the horizontal overlap. Play with the horizontal, because that'll just visually reduce the height. I agree. Maybe a balcony on the front. I don't know. You got something there on the front. I'll get. Okay, appreciate it. Great. So, did we already summarize or do we have to? Yeah, we're done. Good. I think you do need a summary or I can Rewatch the video 50 times do we make our vast audience Happy ish. Okay good Thank you Back to the... Oh, okay, sorry. I think you'd like to do anything official now? I'll keep you across. Oh, oh yeah, right. I'll finish up the main event here, the other event. You can have your chair back. All right, man. I hope you don't send me a bill for $2,000 for designing my clinic. He was there. Yeah. He was there. He was there. Since John told me you have $1,000 billion. I don't know if he's going to bill for that. I don't know if he's going to bill for that. All right. Moving on. So we have minutes to approve. And they are from July 9th and August 27th. Motion to approve the July 9th minutes. And we'll do them separately, because I was absent from that one. And I believe Commissioner Hill as was yeah Commissioner Macress so if we could yeah motion to approve that one noting those us we too are absent Do we do we take the action I can't make a motion Yeah, why did I want to make a motion to because I look through the July 9th That was the Redwood Lodge property. Yeah. And so I'll make a motion to approve those minutes from July 9th. Okay. And can I get a second from Vice Chair Saringle? Second. All in favor, it'll just be Skiles Saringle and Hilderrand on this one. Aye. Aye. Three O passes. And we also haveilderrand on this one. Aye. Aye. Three O passes. And we also have to approve the August 27th. Make a motion to approve the August 27th. Second. All right, we have a motion from Commissioner Mackers, the Second Commission of Yolas. All in favor with Hilderrand absent. Aye. Four O passes. Okay, bringing us to the Planning and building director's report. One item and that relates to the retreat. So here it is October 8th and we're kind of screaming towards the end of the year. So we're going to try to squeeze in a retreat here before the end of the year. I spoke with Chair Skiles this afternoon about a couple options, but I'll follow up with the commissioners dates to kind of hone in on a date that would work with your schedules. After talking with staff, I think we're probably going design review thresholds revisiting that again parking code update basically status report on where we are at the time of the retreat commercial code update kind of status update, but then get direction on the threshold that triggers design design condition used permit the 1500 square foot threshold. And then offer up some of the kind of the direction we're going with streamlining, like condition use permits, minor, major, what would be administrative. By that time, we should have a list of all the uses and sort of a matrix of the recommendations on what would be administrative, what would be permitted, what would be conditional. So it would be really helpful to get feedback from the commission and help with directing that effort. Our staff today, we kicked around a few ideas so the items are kind of growing a little bit. So I'll follow up with a couple of blocks of times, our dates. Again, we're thinking November 21st or December 5th afternoon. And we can offer up a few other dates, but we're thinking more mid-November given our workload and schedules to fit this in and make it work. But to be coming soon, we'll be communicating here shortly. Thank you very much. With that, we're adjourned.