Okay, good evening. We are here for the November 18th, Board of Zoning Appeals. It is now 7-0-1 and we are going to get started. So for all those who have not been to a meeting, there are some methods that we apply here, which are generally robber tools of water. And what we do here is when the case is called the city staff will have up to five minutes to present their case. Thereafter, the applicant and their representatives will have a total of five minutes present their position. Finally, when the case will be open to the public for comments, with each speaker limited to five minutes, members of the public must fill out a speaker form for the record. So then the board may ask questions during any of these presentations and the response to the board will not account towards the five minutes that you're allocated. And during that time, during the questioning, please refrain from elaborating or restating the position or asking the board any further questions. Once the public comment is closed, the board will deliberate. On the case during which time the board may ask additional questions. As always, the speakers are asked to only respond to the question and refrain from further discussion. The board of zoning appeals is a seven member board with a four member quorum. All motions must have a four affirmative votes to pass regardless of the number of board members in attendance. Please call the order. Mr. Foley. Here. Ms. Bowman. Here. Mr. Patel. Here. Mr. Belmore. Here. Ms. Bowman. Here. Mr. Patel. Here. Mr. Belmore. Here. Ms. Evelyn. Here. Mr. Liu. Here. We have a quorum. Thank you. And the first item on the docket is like it's, I guess first do we have any announcements? There are no announcements. The next item on the docket is a previously deferred item. Okay, so I guess please call that docket item and let's get started. Docket item number three, BZA 2024-0005 1700 duet avenue, public hearing and consideration of a request the city of Alexandria. I have the pleasure of introducing to you tonight's special exception request for an after the fact fence on a corner lot. Zoned R25. City staff. Good evening. My name is Sean Killian. I'm an urban planner three with the city of Alexandria. And I have the pleasure of introducing to you tonight's special exception request for 1700 do it Avenue. If I do some context, here's a location. Like was previously stated, the property is zoned R25 residential and is surrounded by other residential uses. the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary of the secondary in the secondary front yard. As the requirement is that less than half the distance between the secondary front property line and the front building wall is the requirement for a six foot fence on a corner lot. Some more photos of these, the existing fence. It's a six foot solid wooden fence. It's constructed right along the secondary front property line. The fence does comply though with setbacks for the side yards in the actual primary front. So for tonight's request, the required setback is 12.75 feet. That is from the secondary front property line. And the post setback they're asking for is zero feet. Therefore, tonight's request is 12.75 feet of relief. the staff is going to recommend to dial this request for a special exception as it does not meet the criteria required for special exception. Thank you. Are there any questions for staff? Yes, I do. I'm going to ask the staff to check the request. I'm going to ask the staff to check the request. Thank you. Are there any questions for staff? Right, let's move on to the applicant. I'm going to ask for my partner to speak for me. I've got some TBI stuff where I struggle speaking and my brain freezes up on me. So if that's okay with everyone, it's fine. Thank you. So just to make it simple, I was going to just go point by point for the main issues for as for why. This is Sarah Paulson. So I was going to just go point by point as far as why it was being denied. So on the first measure, as far as public welfare, decreasing sense of community and openness, visual obstruction for the rear neighbors. These are the main issues pointed out in this first article. As far as, in our case, we have overwhelming neighborhood support from our immediate neighbors on the streets surrounding us. We have about 30 signatures on that list. And including the 330 Mason property that is immediately behind us that is, that was identified as being most affected. And then additionally, the, we previously had, and if you look at the photo on page 21, we had bushes along that property line that were in the same location as the fences currently, but we also had overgrowth issues. So in this way, it still is, there's not that wall issue that there was before. For the second issue as far as the supply of light and air, I'm gonna go back to on page four where it states that this fence, the issue is not its style or height. It's about the placement on the property line. So, as far as light and air, the six foot height is in compliance with the zoning ordinances. And then, as far as the character of the neighborhood, we provided photos of 25 houses in the Delray neighborhood, very close to where we live. And almost all of them that are corner-lap properties have fences that are pretty much along the property line as ours are within a couple of inches. And those are located on page 24, 25 specifically. And then another part of the character of the neighborhood. So one thing that was noted was that a lot of these fences are typically less than four feet in their open. But again, just going back to the fact that the issue here is not the style of the fence or the height. Those things are in compliance. It's the location on the property line. And then the fourth item with being compatible with neighborhood development. Once again, not to just keep harping on the same point, but it is in compliance with the style and the height for the Alexandria zoning ordinances. We did provide a lot of evidence with the photos showing that it is in character with the style of our neighborhood in Del Rey. And the last point where it's questioning the reasonableness of how we can secure our property with the fences it currently is, if you look on page 24 and 25, if we were to change it, where the fence would currently be located, where the measuring tape extends to does create a very awkward location and placement for our fence should be moved to and it does limit the size of our property in our opinion that would go against the character of the neighborhood. This placement that it would currently technically be moved to. Thank you. Thank you. Do you have any other statements you'd like to make? I think you still have time. And then we just we weren't notified briefly before the hearing began tonight about a email that was sent in regarding the petition that was sent around. Just for context, it does appear to be hearsay because the address of this complaint, we did keep our neighborhood support to the surrounding houses near us, because those are the neighbors that were most immediately affected. Those are the ones walking with their kids and strollers with their dogs. We did not speak to this person, so as far as providing inaccurate or misleading material, we can't say that that's the case. Everything that was provided was the layout for the contractor, which was then validated and corroborated by the survey done by Dominion Surveys. So as far as whatever was seen, it's a public record. So if anyone did see any layout of the property, it was an accurate rendering of what we currently have and are proposing to keep. So just in reference to the email that came in today. Thank you. OK, so with that, does anybody have any questions for the applicant? Thank you for your information and for also sharing the photographs in particular in the list of support that you have for it. I did look at this extensively this afternoon and my recollection is that a lot of the imagery that you provided shows, fencing that doesn't necessarily look like yours. They were either shorter, probably the four foot height and open. I did see a few that were more solid, but they also seem to be set back and not right on the property line. So, yeah, specifically, I remember writing down numbers, examples five, six and 7, in section 2 of those photos, or the style is more similar to what we currently have. But again, from the issue that we were told, wasn't the height of the style, it was the location of it along the sidewalk. So we were focused on, okay, in our neighborhood, as far as comparing it to the style of other houses Like will this happen will this stand out will it blend in We were focusing more on okay would what other corner-lap properties have as far as Trying to give our case for why it doesn't create a wall effect or how even if there is it doesn't it's not I get going In for character of the neighborhood. Are there any other questions for the applicant? I have a question for city staff. What they were just talking about with their offense, the style and the height. It sounded like they would be allowed to put something, some sort of fencing in that location, just not the height or the style. Could you please describe what would be allowed per the city ordinance? So they would be allowed to do a four foot open fence, like those adjacent neighbors, since it's a solid six-foot fence It would have to meet that required setback So four-foot open fence could you please? Just I don't understand what open means open usually there needs to be at least 80% open that you can see through it Like it's actually it's 50% 50% definition of an open fence is that the surface of the fence is 50% open. So if your picket is three inches, then the open portion needs to also be open three inches. OK. So like a picket, chain link, rot iron fences are typical open fences. There's a couple of examples in the photos that they send of different styles of open fences. There's a couple examples in the photos that they send of different styles of open fences. OK. But only 40 inches high. 4 feet. 4 feet. Or 4 feet high. OK. So basically a 4 foot open fence is permitted anywhere on your property. It's once you have something either less open or taller than that, that then it needs to comply with ZX. Okay, thank you. I have a follow-up. Sure. A follow-up question please. To clarify what open means, the 50%, did you say it could have you know netting or? It's just open not Side by side would there's open, but it could be Rod iron or something in between yeah, right like a shadow box also like that's another I don't know if that also would count as part of the 50% No, that would be that would be considered a solid. If it was, so there basically needs to be a solid piece and an open portion that is the same with so that it's 50% open, the surface is 50% open. Thank you. OK, if there are no other questions for the applicant, and we're going to move on to the speakers. We have two speaker forms, or a docket item number three. We will first go with Ms. Rita Pratt. Hello, for the record, my name is Rita Pratt. I have been a resident of 700 to it for three and a half years. So I live there, pre-fence and post-fence. I don't have much to say, and frankly, I don't know really what's allowed, we said here. But I think we would not also objectify to any beautifying or like any sort of measures that would fit better with the community as well. One thing that I did have to say is pre-fence. A lot of people in the neighborhood used our yard for their pets. So there was a lot of, I sit upstairs. I work from home and even today in the front section of the yard, people in our neighborhood because we didn't have offense would come and let their dogs go to the bathroom there. So down past Monroe, I see people come up all of the time and we have to clean that up. So I don't have a pet that lives in the house. I don't have any stake in the yard having any sort of, you know, no no air and no space, but it definitely was, that was definitely a problem for me. That's all I have to say. But thank you for considering. Miss Pratt, before you leave, could you please state whether you're four or against it? And I'd also like to add that you can pretty much say anything you want as long as it's, you know, not. I'm just trying to state the facts. You know, I'm just trying to state the facts. You know, and I think since this whole issue came up, I've been in the yard and people have walked by and told me like, that's a nice fence. Like, and I know that this is an issue going on. I've listened to John have these conversations with our neighbors about the fence. Do I think it's the prettiest fence? Absolutely not. Do I think that it's fine and it's workable? Yes. Do I appreciate that there's more privacy? Absolutely. Do I also walk through the neighbor? I walk three miles through this neighborhood every day and I see similar fence all of the time. I actually came back and said Sarah, it's unbelievable that this is an issue because we have seen so many of these fences. I did not come prepared with photos of them, but I love the neighborhood of Delray. I would not want to, you know, depreciate the character of the neighborhood, but I'm definitely for the fence. It's, you know, this would be a big cost to the household to have to move that back. And frankly, I don't think one, we could afford to move it back, nor would it like functionally work. It would go right up against the retaining wall of the house. That's all I have to say. Thank you. Questions? Are there any questions for this speaker? Thank you. Let's thank you. Thank you very much. Let's move on to Ms. Cornwell. Mr. Sorry. Apologies. Hi, my name is Aidan Cornwell. Thank for giving me the chance to speak. I'm going to go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and go ahead and This property is One there is a privacy factor for me directly It is very easy to see into our unit if we forget to draw the blinds if we Have to leave the door open because we have a dog And it makes it very easy for anyone looking over the street if there is an open fence there to immediately see inside the house So that's kind of just the starting point for us personally I will say secondary to that I think that it is important to at least establish some So that's kind of just the starting point for us personally. I will say secondary to that. I think that it is important to at least establish some kind of barrier that kind of mitigates the risk of somebody trying to come into the yard that maybe doesn't belong there. Namely because my door is right there and it's an immediate access to the street. With that being said, I would also say I have walked to the metro through Del Rey, I walked all around Del Rey. I think that the fence itself situates fairly well within the normal kind of, I guess, culture and structural sense of the neighborhood. Most of our neighbors do seem to like the fence kind of in a vast majority and at least in my experience I've we've had neighbors come by with their dogs. It's kind of an open space where people can go leverage the fact that there's a fence in your yard where they might not be able to take their dogs otherwise and kind of have that sense of community around, you know, the very dog-friendly nature of the neighborhood. I think that that's something that doesn't exactly reflect on paper whenever you look at it but I think that there's kind of that genesis quad about having that available to the surrounding neighbors who are all friendly with each other want to be able to socialize and want to be able to kind of meet up with animals or just gone in the back have little privacy, a little bit of privacy, and be able to spend time with each other. So that's all I had. Thank you. Are there any questions for the speaker? Okay. We have one more speaker. Renee, and I can't read this handwriting here. Sorry about that. It's a paragraph. Paragore, thank you. I've lived next door. I live at 1702, which is right next door to John, from 25 years. I knew the previous owners of that property. And the bushes that they had poured around there. It was just, you know, they just got big and they were unsightly and they were all different sizes and you couldn't really see through the yard anyway. So when he was talking about putting up this fence it was and then once it started happening it was very, very nice. It's a beautiful fence. It offers them a lot of privacy. They do have dogs on that property. And he's correct about his apartment door. When you're on the corner, when he opens the lower level apartment door, anybody can just see his right into his house and onto his porch. And there's absolutely no privacy there. If the fence were to go up into the yard, it just wouldn't work because there's a retaining wall there that a lot of amount of space. It just wouldn't work, it just cut the whole yard in half. And then it wouldn't give the, I don't know, I haven't met you yet. I wouldn't give them any of the privacy or the dogs that we are dog neighborhoods. So as is all town, of course. And he does have other dogs in his yard. The neighbors come over, they hang out, they come out in my yard, they hang out, I have a fence in your yard as well. It is a beautiful fence. It doesn't cut off any of the visuals for vehicles that need a turn. It doesn't cut off any visuals for pedestrians, people walking their dogs, going to the Y, going to the Metro, people with their strollers. It's safe and it's beautiful. And I think that he did a great job and I'm for it. And like I said, I've lived in Delray for 25 years and I've always hated those bushes around that house, but this is a very beautiful spot. And I'm for it. So. Thank you. Are there any questions for this speaker? Yes, just one. You mentioned that you also had a fence. Could you describe that fence for us? Mine is a chain link fence. It's been there probably for, I don't know, 40 years. We're on the alley side. So there's the alley, our yard, and then John's property. But to say that this is a problem fence is just. I don't see where there's a problem with it. It's very nice, it's unobtrusive. It's nice. There should be no reason why they would have to tear it down. Like she said, it would cost a lot of money to do that as well. It offers some privacy. They're on the a corner lot. If there are no other questions for the speaker. Thank you. Thank you for your time. And so with no other speakers, we are now going to move to board deliberation. Who would like to start? A couple of questions. Thank you, Ms. Bellman. Thank you. So can I ask the questions of the parties? First of all, Mr. Anderson, thank you for your service. Thank you very much. And thank you for this application. So a couple of questions. The one of you might maybe Sarah, if you prefer, come here to answer these questions. The remainder of the lot. So the lot, this is a side yard fence that is in question, which I saw the photos of that area that's now available for enjoyment because the fence is there and if the fence is six foot and put up against the retaining wall, that's not going to exist. So let's just say that the fence is up against that retaining wall. Then how much of the space is available in your yard for enjoyment? What does that look like? And do we have photos, staff that show- Actually is one photo in the larger packet? If you could just direct me to the page that would be. Page 24. So, that shows... Maybe 23. I think it's 23. Were you get a glimpse of the backyard that is technically in front of 330 Mason. I see. Is that the area that you're referencing? So, staff, could you pull up page 23 of the application? I think. I think that's right. There are two dogs in that photo. Yeah. So are you asking for the distance from? I'm trying to unwork to the property line? Is that what you're trying to understand if the fence were to be put where it needs to be 12th? We would lose about a third of the yard. You'd lose about a third of the yard. Yeah, that's a third of the fence. This is probably the easiest way of saying this without a calculator and doing measurement. Yep. OK. OK. easiest way of saying this without a calculator and doing measurement. Yep. Okay. Okay. If you look at the yard, it makes an L completely lose the whole entire L and it's defense with the one leg of the L. Yep. Okay. Thank you. Yep. Okay. That's exactly what I was looking for. Let me just see if I have any other. Oh. So my other question is, what is there specific reason for the fence? I realized that it was probably built and it realized you needed to have approval. And so now there's a financial burden. Separate from that, is there a reason for a six foot fence? So it has to do with privacy originally. I had the bushes there and I noticed that the mothers that were pushing strollers kept having to go into the road or into the grass to push their child because the bushes were so overgrown I tried to chop the bushes back to a reasonable distance but they were planted right next to the sidewalk. After that, Sarah pointed out we could put a fence because we googled putting a fence in Alexandria with the permit process. We talked to I think five or six contractors. All of them said there's no permits required in Alexandria for a six-foot tall fence. And we didn't realize the corner a lot, element. So we shot around with contractors. All of them had no problem with it. Obviously, they're getting money out of it. But we built the fence because that way people can now use the sidewalk. The people in the lower unit can now have privacy. Or they still have the privacy. Because it's this giant open area minus a retaining wall that's maybe a foot. So it's I think there's a retaining wall that goes around my property because that property is an indention along with the three other houses and when it rains enough that will flood I have six slump pumps that around my property to prevent that house from flooding with a standby generator and everything like that. So, you can understand, I know on Old Town has this problem too, but that was kind of the best answer that I could come up with, and that's why it's a solid wood and fence. We, you know, people want privacy, living in, I mean, look how built up it was even back in like 1800s. So. And then it goes back to our 10 and 8 and 2 point where for them it is that comes more of a safety issue where the higher it is that you don't want people to be able to see directly into their unit if they were to have the blinds cracked. So four feet still allows people, those people are over that height to be able to just look directly in. So six feet just, it made the property feel more secure and uniform with the other three sides. Thank you. Thank you very much. And a question from the city. Go ahead. So what is it my understanding correct that if it's a lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the lot of the the front requirements and then that's why there's a, we can include is different than what would be a normal like side yard fence. So a typical interior lot, they can't have a six foot fence for their front building wall. They have to have a four foot open style fence for their front building wall. And since this has two fronts and two sides, that's why this has more restrictions than an interior lot. Are there further questions or deliberations? Mr. Chair. Just going back to the process a little bit, Mr. Anderson. You mentioned many companies just, and you Googled it and said you could just build a fence Did you speak to the city at all or did anybody bring up codes or Ornances or anything of the sort? No no one brought up codes or ordinances The when I Googled it it brought me to the city of Alexandria's website where it said you did not need that and I guess I read it short Where it just said six foot fences are acceptable Anything over six foot would require a permit at that point Go ahead miss Ballin In So staff thank you in looking at the pictures provided by the applicants, I'm referring to pictures on page 29, 30, andsided six-foot fence, not sure if that's a corner lot or not. All pictures that we provided were corner lots. So I'm so I'm curious as to why that picture on the bottom of 29 is that in violation? So like the applicant said, there's no fence permits required by the city. So we basically rely on a complaint-based system. We have the ordinance that gives the regulations. But obviously, if we don't hear a report on the fence, the city doesn't have staff to go out there to check every single fence to see if it's in violation. Okay, so, but my question is, are its in violation. OK, so but my question is, are these in violation? So if it's a six foot corner fence in a secondary front yard, then it's a solid fence that's in violation. So then the picture on page 29 and the bottom would be a violation. And what about the pictures on page 30 that property? Also a violation. The address, ma'am. Um, 301 East Del Rey Avenue. Yeah, so if it's a six foot fence in a secondary front yard, then they went to get it's in violation of the corner lot ordinance. So just to elaborate a little bit further, as John mentioned, we don't proactively enforce any zoning violations, unless they are a complaint that's brought to our attention. So there is very likely fences throughout the city that are in violation of the zoning ordinance. The other thing that's tricky with fences is that prior to 1992 there were really no fence regulations. So sometimes they are replacements of existing fences so they're existing non-compliant structures. It can be very hard to determine that because there's no permit record. Sometimes there'll be a survey that might, we might have an old survey that we can determine that, but there are some fences that might not technically be illegal because they might be not existing, replacements of existing non-compliant fences. So it can be very tricky to tell whether they're in compliance or not. Thank you. And another question please. Are there any actually first this is for Mr. Anderson and Sarah. Are your dogs service animals and are they registered service animals? Mine are. Two, mine. Yep. Or registered for you or registered for me? None of our managers for me. They are not. No. OK. Question for staff. Are there any federal laws that impact our decision here tonight related to veterans or fair housing? Not that I'm aware of, no. Okay, thank you. And final four, I believe this is for staff. And actually, this is for staff. I don't know if it's my final or not. The complaint that was received about this fence was this a citizen of Alexandria? I believe was there an anonymous complaint? It was an anonymous complaint. Correct. Okay, thank you. Follow up on this phone. This last question was the complaint, you know, it was anonymous, but did they say how the fence affected them or why they were complaining or was it just some guy walking around saying, you know, that's not compliant. So we received the 3-1 request basically to that there was a fence that was erected within the secondary primary front. So any inspector who went out there measured the fence and then deemed that it was not in compliance with that section of the ordinance. Can I make a statement about the... No, not unless you're asked. Sorry. Thank you. Can I make a statement about the no not unless you're asked? Thank you Don't know for the questions No for the I mean Can I ask what would be the statement regarding the complaint? Oh, you need to ask them an actual question That would that would go against the rules of elaborating. I would draw. If you have a question for them, please ask them the question. No, I think I'm good. I'm good. Okay. I have a question for the applicant. So in the email that was produced today, there's a statement that says that drawings that were provided to the neighbors show a much smaller or like an accurately presented fence than what is in reality. Can you or the city staff provide that drawing? Is that in the packet somewhere? It is in the packet. It's page 46. It does show a slightly different location of the fence. It shows the fence not in line with the primary front building wall. It shows it set back a little more than half the length of that wall that faces. So it shows it in a slightly different location. In a question to the applicant, was that an error or was that? Was there reason for? Can we have a moment just to find? Yes. So just for context, what was provided here was from the contractors. This is what they provided to us as with their estimate. And this is what was constructed. We hadn't had the survey done by the new surveyors provided to us with their estimate and this is what was constructed. We hadn't had the survey done by Divinute Surveys at the time as we were compiling all of this information for filing our special exception application. But from our understanding this was, can you just, what is the portion that does not align with where the fence currently is located. The fence is look if you see on it's hard to see on this image. It's in line with the front building wall that faces to wit Avenue and that rendering shows it's set back. I don't know how many feet. There's a part about this part right here and the sidewalks. The part that comes off of you know off of East Mason Mason towards your house is shifted further towards the rear of the dwelling. Would that be against city zoning ordinances? Because that's on our property. It's not a pedestrian pathway. It still would not comply with zoning, but there would be less fence that did not comply. It's also showing, I'm sorry. Oh no, go ahead. It's also showing that the fence comes up into the sidewalk where it makes an L shape on the page 46 document. Now the sidewalk is unfortunately pushed further back. It looks like it's perfectly half of the house. But I mean, this was made in Microsoft Paint more than likely. Or. Oh, OK. So did they answer your question? I think so. So just to confirm, it's the contractor that produced it. Drawing. But no duplacidousness. This was this is accurately drawn to where it is in our property. When we were showing this to neighbors in our area. Right. Okay. Um, are there any further questions? Comments? Opinions? So I will, um, I will offer something that, um, has been said to me when I have been an applicant to this same board myself in that there is absolutely zero expectation of privacy in this city of Alexandria. So the ordinances and the things that we must consider here at this board do not involve privacy. I know that a lot of the arguments for this fence were based on privacy. There are some others as well, and I acknowledge that. But we at this board cannot consider privacy as being a basis for whether this is approved or not. Are there any comments or thoughts on that? three that in previous applicants, they're kind of personal reasons for offense or addition or some kind of construction. Isn't one of the delineated factors, but here, I'm inclined to approve to the extent, this doesn't affect anyone. It's not even enforced except for anonymous complain. Everybody we've heard from here today who are direct neighbors supports it. It seems like an improvement to the property that was otherwise bushes, you know, we heard testimony or statement that people walking their kids down the street in the stroller couldn't make use of the sidewalk. And this overall, if everyone who lives there and around it thinks it helps the community, I just don't see a reason to knock it down or move it back where we saw the pictures that comes right up to their house if it's by the retaining wall or 12 and 1 half feet. It's, and I think I'm satisfied that the landowner, did their due diligence relied on their contractors, all of us kind of would when we install something. And I do live close-ish to this area, and there are a lot of similarly styled fences around when I'm walking my dog. And I would see more of an issue with this if his neighbor to the left or his neighbor behind him said, we hate this. It looks horrible. It affects the way we walk our kids or our dogs. Otherwise, and I would be penalizing for an ordinance that really doesn't serve anything in my opinion for this. So yeah, I think secondarily to take considerations, the costs and the privacy, which we can't do based on the factors. But at least for the record, and this gets peeled or anything, would like it there for whoever looks at this. To know what kind of what we heard today and that position on it where just that's not going down for the ordinance sake, but there's some flexibility. I think that's why they come to the board. That's my position, hon. Would you mind if we asked city staff to elaborate on the Reasons and rationale for the ordinance? That would help. May I ask? I'd really like to hear from city staff. What is the... This is what it's going to ask for. So... Right, but what is the... Not necessarily for City staff. What is the... This is what it's gonna ask for, so... Right, but what is the, not necessarily for the special exemption, but for the ordinance to have a fence that is no more than 48 inches high, and 50% open, what is the basis or rationale for that criteria for a front-knart fence? It has been the character of neighborhoods to typically have open front cards to create a sense of community in the neighborhood, not walling off the fronts of properties. And a corner lot is a unique situation where we do allow six foot fence in a portion of the secondary front yard, whereas in just your primary front yard, you can always only have the four foot open style fence. So there is a, the ordinance does address the need for some additional privacy on these corner lots, but it's really that idea of having more open front yards to kind of create that open atmosphere in the neighborhood, not creating a wall like situation along a sidewalk. Thank you. Ms. Bellman. Thank you. Ms. Bowman. Thank you. So in looking at these, there are you of these specific special exception criteria. Can you go into, can you summarize again why each of these were now in staff's opinion? So for the first one it's whether the special exception will be determined to public welfare. Once again the requirement is to have that setback. It had that instance of an open front yard. You're closing off and walling off, which is what we're doing. Which is detrimental to public welfare? Yes, ma'am. The goal is with the fences suspense is to be set back as to create that sense of community and not walling off. Thank you. Another reason they do it is for the use of the brighter voice since it's a corner lock, you'd be able to see across in case of cars coming at that corner. Okay. From number two, it does reduce the supply of light because you now you're basically creating a wall right along a secondary front yard which goes against the requirement of basically what we ask for offense to be set back. To the adjacent property there's not an adjacent property that's impacted. The reason we have that is it's based on the orientation of the adjacent properties that's what sets the set back since all the other properties have their primary fronts facing their secondary front. That's why the requirement is at 12.75, half the distance. But there's not an adjacent property. There isn't that. There isn't adjacent property to the west. So that their primary front yard is adjacent to this secondary front yard. That's the situation where we require half of the distance for the setback. the primary front yard is adjacent to this secondary front yard. That's the situation where we require half of the distance for the setback. If these were all secondary fronts that we're facing on that street, then the setback would only be 2 feet. Okay. But because this secondary front yard has a budding property is a budding property to the west that has their primary front yard facing Mason. That's why that that's that back is half the distance between the building mall and the property line. My fence is in 40 is much shorter than 48 inches than the adjacent property. They ever are saying well that's sir have that nobody asked you a question. Thank you. Thank you. OK. Continue. So the most of the essential character of the neighborhood is four foot open fences in secondary front yards. So that's not in character with the neighborhood. And it's not in compatible with the surrounding development of the neighborhood in terms of what we can be approved and what is it currently existing. And lastly, they do have the ability in the means to move the fence to be within compliance and still have a six foot fence along their side yards and their primary front. It's only the secondary front. So the fence could be moved and they still have access to the yard with privacy. And so final question for staff. Thank you very much. In order for our board to grant this exception, we would need to find that all of these criteria are met. Is that correct? That is correct. So not just one or two, they all need to be met. In order for the US Board to grant a special exception, do you see that it is meeting all of the criteria? Thank you. Thank you. You have a follow up with one of the criteria for the characteristics of the neighborhood one. How is that determined given that all the testimony we heard today was and all the neighbors agree that it does conform with with their neighborhood and with everything looks like what's the measure for whether or not it's like it's neighborhood. In terms of its capability of looking at the fences they provided most of them are once again four foot open fences and then in the compatibility the neighborhood is what is allowed and that should have creates the flow that you see of four-foot open fences and that it being standard amongst what's compatible with the neighborhood. So I'd like to offer a comment to the board that one of the things that was stated earlier is that they can have a fence exactly where this fence is just two feet west and open. So they wouldn't necessarily have to move the fence. They just have to alter the fence to meet the city's requirement. Is that true? Correct. And let me say something else. Mr. Chair, can you explain that a little bit further? You mean bring it down from six feet to four feet? Right. And then make it open. Then essentially remove every other board or however they want to do it. There's lots of different ways of making it 50% open. Let me say something else to the comment to the board is that approving this really starts to set a precedent. If we go down this path, if you could imagine, if everybody in that neighborhood wanted a six-foot fence in front of their house, this is a secondary front yard. Would if the neighbor decided they wanted a six-foot fence in their front yard, and then everybody gets wanted a six foot fence in their front yard, and then everybody gets a six foot fence in their front yard. I mean, we essentially be, you know, in the process of rewriting the ordinance if we approved all these six foot fences in front yards, and it would change the character of the neighborhood. Can I make a comment on that related to what you just said? Sure. I really don't understand why the city uses a complaint-based system. Because unless you have very clear and accessible directions or instructions, there will be homeowner like the applicant who will unknowingly build an offense like this. And then we'll have to retroactively come to the BZA and face the financial consequences because of that. I'm not saying that I have a proposed idea for how to make that system better or an alternative, but I think that's a bigger shoe. And policy wise, it's something that the city shouldn't address. Just a process question to the city. Is there any discretion in terms of what complaints to follow up on? I know for the Commonwealth Attorney and criminal matters, you can not pursue certain things. Is there that same discretion with the city attorney's office or why was this matter chosen as something to bring forward? I think all my colleagues here come back me up. We look at all cases that come in for complaints. It could be whether people parking certain ways, additions, fences, materials. We just try to make sure that everything is in compliance with the ordinance. Yeah, we don't really have any leeway and choosing what to, which to choose to enforce or not. And for us, basically we get a complaint, our zoning inspectors go out and determine whether the complaint was founded or unfounded. And then we work with the applicants to try to bring them into compliance. The question, Mr. Chair. Right here. Oh, go ahead. Or city staff. Does the zoning officer or do we proactively go out and find things that are not up to code? You know, looking at these photos, there's a lot of fences. I mean, are we proactively looking or is it only complaint-based when we take action? It's really just complaint-based and when we receive calls regarding fences. Since we don't do permits, my apologies. Ms. Brown, go ahead. I do have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. I have a question for staff. How often do you get these anonymous complaints from someone? With some frequency, I don't have data, but we do get anonymous complaints. We get some that have contact information, some that don't. It's probably 50-50. It's a 50-50. Who issue an anonymous complaint? It is. And we can only speculate that it does come from the city of Alexander. Someone residing in the city. We don't have any idea where the complaint. I'm not aware of where the complaint came from. Our zoning inspectors may have more information, but as far as I know, these were all anonymous, so I don't have the information. So if I understand correctly, we're here, and these people are going through this because there's one anonymous complaint that has come in. We've had, I think, maybe there was, I don't know how many people that have basically agreed with what they have done and find no issue with it. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. I mean, I think that's correct. that we have been able to get the information from the community. We have been able to get the information from the community and we have been able to get the information from the community and we have been able to get the information from the community and we have been able to get the information from the community and we have been able to get the information from the community and we have been able to get the information from the that I would have to defer to the land use division chief he handles all the enforcement. I'm not sure if they have some way of tracking who those complaints are coming from with the IP address or something like that. I'm not sure of. And I just have one more. If there wasn't a complaint on this fence, this fence would have just stayed until there was a complaint. Correct? I'd like to make a comment to the board. This, this, this, uh, I had a question in on the, um, on the, the anonymous complaint. It's, it's something that I personally really appreciate it. Being anonymous when you're calling in for these complaints because we have sometimes neighbors who are really doing things that they should not be doing. Yet you don't want your name on there because your neighbors might retaliate against you. And that, I mean, it's something that's real. So, I mean, it's, okay, it was anonymous. I mean, I, you know, how do we know that it wasn't, you know, one of the neighbors that just really didn't like it? Or it could have been somebody walking by and just decided to be, you know, not a nice person. We don't know. But I want to say to the city staff that I really appreciate being anonymous when I have to call in. So I appreciate it a lot. Thank you. To the city staff. No problem. Are there any other questions or comments? Yeah, just for the staff. Just for factor number two, Any other questions or comments? So with it being basically right up against the property line as reduced the light and air for cut by the fact that it's not creating that open sense of community, which is the point of allowing for foot open fences within secondary front yards, and that having a six foot fence is reducing that and creating that wall effect, basically what the city has tried to avoid. And also it's adjacent to the property to the west to their primary front yard, so the six foot portion that runs along their north side property line is adjacent to the base of the property to their rear to the west to their primary front yard, which can only have a substantive difference between I understand the intent of the statute. I have a face to make it walkable, talk like everything that you do. Justifications behind the scene of events is being achieved in the current aspect. the process. If you have any questions, please ask if you have any questions. If you have any questions, please ask if you have any questions, please ask if you have any questions, please ask if you have any questions, please ask if you have any questions, please Thank you. Thank you. Ms. Bowman. Let me ask for that last slide to be put back up. Thank you. I appreciate that. May I make another comment? You may make many comments. Thank you. Okay. In looking at this, I would say the first four criteria as I read them and as I review the materials that were provided, I believe that those criteria are met. I think that the special exception will not be detrimental to the public welfare. The supply of light or air with the extra two feet will not be, cause will not be, um, imparant adequate supply of light and air. The approval, I don't think, will alter the essential character of the area or the zone. Clearly, we see a bunch of these fences. I also think that it's compatible with the surrounding areas. However, I think the last one is I don't think that it's the only reasonable means and location. So if we, if our job is to meet all of those criteria as a yes, I think that last one is where I struggle to find a yes. I don't think it's the only reasonable means and location. So that's where I'm landing on this just to share my perspective. That's a great perspective. I would add or comment on your perspective. I agree the last one would be difficult to justify, to move to a yes. But I also find that the character of the neighborhood where it's, you know, maintaining that the look and the feel of the... I would just have a hard time moving that one to a yes. And then additionally, the light, I think that when we think about light, I think we're often thinking of sunlight coming in. But think about the other perspective when you're at night, you're walking along this fence line. And, you know, there's, you know, blind spots that, you know, are, you know, potentially, you know, I mean, who knows? It's a good neighborhood now, but 10 years from now, 20 years from now. Once we approve this fence, it's there forever. Forever. It will not be taken away. And so I would find it difficult to find several of these, be it a movement of two of the, yes. When we see the essential character of the area and there are so many fences like that, and it is a bit of a nuance because it's a corner lot that only people who know that there's a double corner lot requirement, it doesn't really change the character of the neighborhood. I think in my view, there are so many examples and I drove around this neighborhood and saw so many examples, just doesn't change the character of the neighborhood. Attiquette supply of light, I think, you know, is it possibility? Attiquate is the word that I was looking at there and I'm not sure that it's gonna in adequately, you know, create an adequate supply of light. I don't think that two feet's gonna do that. So I'm starting with the last one. Okay, do we have any other comments? I don't agree with Ms. Bellman. I think there are alternatives to this six foot fence, such as cutting it down by two feet and making it 50% open. That was still address the barrier issue that was made earlier, as well as keeping dogs or other, others from accessing the property. As Mr. Foley said, privacy is not really an expectation in this city. So given all those I'm inclined to deny the request. I just want to clarify one of those comments because I'm looking at the reg and is it you know I think location makes sense to me that if you have a fence that's me or you know a line where the fence is located is really you're struggling with the six versus four foot because the camp get the fence like right like right by their house, but it's just the height of the fence. Is that the main concern? Is that on a location wise where else they would put the fence? It's really just that a fence in that location With the requirement being six foot that that's what that's what we have that's what's presented to us That's what the requirement is. Listen, I am frustrated by the system, that a complaint system and not a system that will then hold all of the others accountable, that's a frustrating situation. Anonymous or not, I don't really care. The complaint versus the proactive, let's make sure that everyone is in compliance. It is a system that exists and that's frustrating. That's not what we're dealing with today. Are these facts? That's what I'm trying to start through. Can I ask a question if they're applicant? I do. Yes you can. Have you had conversations with your contractors about modifying this fence tour, something that's compliant and compliance with his own ordinance? And have they, if so and have they if so have they sort of provided a financial estimate for doing that. Or do you have to like tear the entire fence down and build anyone if you choose? We've had conversations with the individual that built the fence but nothing about price or anything it's depending on the outcome of this meeting. Will be the conversations that I have with the contractor after this meeting. OK. Do we have any motions? We make them another comment. Are you certainly going to make another comment? Just while, again, there's a good idea to make a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a to make sure that the board is aware of that. That's an important distinction to make. Okay. Mr. Foley. Before you move to motions, I would just remind the board that I don't know whether deferral is something that the applicant would want to consider, or if there's a different configuration of the fence that the board might support, or that the applicant would want to consider, or if there's a different configuration of the fence that the board might support, or that the applicant might consider, but just to put that on the table as a possibility. Okay, well before we go to motions, while there is a possibility that the applicant might want to defer, and we have been generally generous with deferrals, possibility that the applicant might want to defer. And we have been generally generous with deferrals. Let's just go ahead and pull the board. Let me hear from each member where you stand on this. I'll take it. You want to start down here. Start down there. Excellent. Yes, I sympathize with the applicant. I believe in his word, for his word, that he searched and tried to find the right answer. And I do think that we have an opportunity when I say we, perhaps the city or the zoning or whatever, to make sure that when people are looking for things like this that they also are reminded to look at other things as well. I think there's an opportunity if somebody's looking for an answer. I wouldn't be, I don't know how you would find this answer if you're just putting up a fence that you don't need a permit for. So I'm a little concerned about that. I'm also concerned that you talked about precedent on one side. I'm a little concerned about the other side of just the fence tearing down business that this could create. There are a lot of fences in that neighborhood that look like this. And I understand we're not considering all those. We're considering this one. But, you know, at this time, you know, I would be a nay for. Okay. This has been very interesting and unfortunate in terms of understanding a few things. I still do find it disturbing that there can be one complaint and frankly if it wasn't, even if it wasn't anonymous, it's one complaint that sparked something that If it had not been made this wouldn't be going on and the positive remarks around it far out way the negative remarks around it I understand the importance of adhering to these standards for special exceptions. They're very frustrating that all of them have to be adhered to. And I wonder how we do go about making some changes that might benefit citizens and the board in terms of how we address things like this. So I don't even know if it's allowed, but I might abstain in terms of voting this evening. You are not allowed to abstain. Well, then I will consider everybody else's comments before I share my point. That's fair. Thank you. I will be curious to hear from staff any thoughts regarding modifications that might be options. And as I'm continuing to contemplate my position. Okay, we have so far not a very good track record here. So I would vote to approve the exception. You know, I think, you know, as long as I've served, we haven't really reviewed precedent or previous decisions. I also think of us as not a real court. We are, you know, a citizen kind of volunteer board where I think when there are ordinances that are, in a way, I don't know how to phrase this, and force for the sake of being enforced, that there's some element of fairness and equity that the board being composed of us, just neighbors of people who come here have responsibility to exercise that flexibility. Now what I don't know is if the process going forward, if it gets, and I understand staff's position investigate what comes in, but then, let's say this is approved, does the city attorney at that point then have discretion to say, I'm going to take this kind of case on appeal and use resources in Alexandria circuit. I'm going to let it be and let the board decision stand. You know, I do weigh the fact that people showed up in support versus those who weren't in support weren't here. You know, I think in any, if we weren't, you know, just a board of neighbors, but we were actually if we weren't, you know, just a board of neighbors, but we were actually, you know, I guess handcuffed to precedent and following that, the fact that nobody shut up on the other side should be weighted in that case, extremely disfavorably against not approving. I do share misbalance concerns and what Mr. Lu said as well about that last factor. I think in a lot of cases, is there an alternative that could have been done sure, but here, this wasn't a landowner that, or sorry, I keep on calling you landowner. This wasn't a homeowner that just ignored the rules or knew what they were and then decided to not do them. You looked into it relied on this contractor. And if not kind of us is the board just tries to help in the situation. And I don't know what the difference then would be between that and then just always having to go to court to get these things enforced. I think the board is supposed to be that medium that takes an account. What people are actually facing takes into account privacy and costs and all the things that aren't on the chart. But we hear about every case that comes forward. I think if they're ridiculous, I would have confidence in the board to find that. All right, the homeowners, having some kind of ridiculous justification for what he did, but that's not the case here. And I think we should be able to use that discretion that's generally, I think, why counties and cities have a volunteer board of people that live there, and not just put it to city versus homeowner and court all the time. I think we get to be that middle ground. And, you know, here I agree with Ms. Bowman. Factors one through four, all of them are subjective, but one through four about light and space, characteristic of the neighborhood. I get it, right? You could write three arguments for each side if you wanted to, but the arguments that we heard here were the neighbors showing up saying, this does fit my neighborhood, right? I walk my dog there, I hang out there. Their fences around me that are like that. So yeah, we could write an opposition and say, it doesn't fit the light in air. It's not in the characteristic of Delray, but everybody that lives in Delray around this house says it is. And I think we should weigh that for these factors. I'm still struggling with the last one, but that's where that, in a sense of the board having a role as an equitable type of body in addition to doing our best to uphold ordinances, comes into play. And so for all those reasons, I would vote to approve the exception. First of all, I'm truly sorry that you were going through with this process. I think it's a fall of the city's complaint-based system that brought you here. And I was leaning toward denial, but after hearing Mr. Prattell's argument, I'm leaning toward approval. That's where I stand. Okay. I would say that I feel for the applicants greatly enlarged it because I've been in the exact same position myself. But with that said, I was forced to comply and I did. And so, you know, with that said, I think coordinates are put there for a reason and we should all follow them. So for me, it will be my vote will be to deny. As far as deferring. I see the docket this was previously deferred. Why I wasn't here in this last meeting. Why was it previously deferred? So it's deferred to the last meeting because we only had four board members present. We're currently down a board member. Hopefully we'll have a new board member next month. Hopefully. I believe there's only four board members here and we gave the applicant the option if they wanted to defer to be heard by a more full board. Was that before or after any deliberation? Before. Okay. Okay. I will offer to the applicant if you've heard up here that there's a chance you're gonna have a negative vote. You're gonna need four affirmative votes to pass if there's something that you would like to change and come back with a different then structure of some sort. And defer this. If you get a negative vote, you can't appeal this or come forward with it again. I think it's for six months. So if they receive it now, they could appeal it to the circuit court. Oh that's right. But they could not come back to the BZI with a substantially similar application for a year. Oh it's for a year. And currently I know there's an there is an abstaining vote, so there isn't. There's no abstaining votes. Nobody will abstain. Right. All members have to vote. Right. And the informal tally was at, I believe it's 33. Well, we don't know what it is because two of our members decided that they hadn't decided yet. And they wanted to hear what everybody had to say. So we are, there's two members that are kind of open, but I think that through the comments, you've heard one of those members is probably leaning towards denial, and the other one is probably leaning towards approval. So, and those are from all the comments and things that have been made in the past. I think we, you know, we don't know what they're going through their heads right now, but, but it's up to you. I'm giving you the opportunity to defer if you'd like, if you're going to make some sort of change, if you're not going to make a change, I think that we should just go forward and do the vote and get this done. He asks the staff recommendations of modifications. No I would prefer to leave this to the applicants. And staff is willing to work with the applicants on a revised application. I'm sure city staff will work with them to get to some place that would be a approve or close to approval. I think we would like to move forward. And not and not. Just take the vote. Okay. Thank you very much. Can we appreciate all of your time today? I know this has been interesting intellectual exercise. Well, one thing that Mr. Patel pointed out, we are here as fellow citizens, and we do, as I said, very much empathize with your position and come in here, and we do appreciate your time coming here to go through this process. So with that, do I have a motion? Mr. Chair, before that, I was just gonna ask if the two members who did not share one of this year before we take a motion. Mr. Chair, before that, I was just going to ask if the two members who did not share one of this year before we take a vote. No, let's just hope that the two motions. Who's going to give me a motion? I'll make a motion to approve. No, before I accept that motion to go forward with the motion, are there any caveats or considerations in your motion to approve? Because if your motion to approve does not pass, where it gets, I don't even know what the word is, but if it's like a 3-3 split, then it won't pass, and then we go to denial. And if denial doesn't pass, then it's just denied. Because they need for it to pass. So if you make a motion, you motion with some sort of, Mr. Patel, do you know the word I'm looking for is? No, I apologize. I was just for is. No, I apologize. I was going to just for rules question. If there's a motion to deny it doesn't pass. Then is it is a table. They need they need for affirmative votes. Okay. I don't understand the common about modifications with caviats. I made that motion before. Okay, let's just let's just go forward motion to approve accepted. Do I have a I mean do I have a second? I second the motion. All in favor say I. I'm not I have a second. I have a second. I have a second. All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed. Same sign. Aye. Motion failed. So the application is rejected or denied, I'm sorry, denied. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for your time. Docket number four, BZA 2024, 0, 0, 0, 6, 3350 Commonwealth Avenue public hearing and consideration of a request for a special exception for an after-the-fact fence on a corner lot zoned R25. Okay. We have city staff to present. Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the BZA Board. Tonight we're looking again at a corner lot fence. No joy. At 335-0 Commonwealth Avenue, special request. The nature of this property is that it is an in-unit town home, zone RB. A adjacent to it is you have a commercial complex, a seven unit apartment building behind, and diagonally a single family home in across the street on multifamily complex house, housing development. Again, this is also complaint-based. A complaint was received on July 11, 2024. The staff went out to inspect this fence. And you can see that previously where the fence was located, it was half the distance from the property line and what was built, was to the property line. The fence also shows that there are portions of it that was greater than 6 feet. There are portions of the front fence that's also less than 50% open. The existing fence as you can see, as there, I believe you have the packet, wondered things that we have found out and we will go through this, is that a significant portion of this front yard is really not a, is there front yard, it's actually the public right away, which was unknown to the applicant and to staff. This diagram right here gives an example. So these town homes were built of part of a subdivision. And the portion that is green is actually the public right away. And then in the back, which is highlighted in red, in this subdivision, there was not only an easement, there is a right away easement. So we have a total of about 35 feet of land so that whole portion in the back that you see goes through not only their property but all the way through the five town homes that you see. This is actually unique because in order for the other homes to access to the parking to the back they actually have to drive through all the other neighbors' property. And... I'm sorry. I see something close. The batteries are in the middle, so I got it. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry, the batteries are on the low. We need a block. I don't know. I'm sorry the battery's running low. We need a plug. I don't know. Oh no. Okay. We're going to try to get through this. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. And so what you will be looking at tonight are three separate things. You will be looking at the fence less than 50% open. You will be looking at a portion of the fence that's greater than six feet. And then you will look at the fence. And again, we sent a memo because originally, we thought it was supposed to be two-feet away from the property line. But again, when you go back to the criteria, it states that an adjacent property, any adjacent property. So in this case, we had two adjacent properties where their primary front face is led better avenue. So instead of the two-feet, it actually had to be half the distance. So we sent a memo on clarifying that so that the nature of the request hasn't changed but the section from 17.0 to A to 17.0 to B has changed and so what we are recommending is approval for the fence graded in six feet and have to distance again because the criteria for Corneloss fence states reasonable yard. And again if we go back to this portion they have lost their total back and the portion that's green which we they thought that we all thought was front yard, it's actually public right away, that the nature of their life, they have lost more than what they would have deemed their life, more than 50% of it. And so the only piece that is actually usable is that piece in the middle. And then if again, if you look through the packet, you will see that the adjacent property, the commercial complex had some light issues. Their light was shining into their yard. However staff went back to transportation environmental services to ask them to downcast the light, but even doing so, if you look at the photos, you will see that there's significant light. So if you look at the way the fence is located and where it's positioned, it gives them some relief of what's there and it also gives them a reasonable yard portion to use on their lot. And with that, I entertain any type of questions and comments that you may have for me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the presentation. Do we have any questions for city staff? I do have a question. So, and I just want I think this was in the presentation. I remember reading that the part around the public right away they have to remove that part of the fence. That's not what this is about. Correct. And one of the reasons why we ask that this be a portion that this will be a condition is because if the boys should make a ruling, we do not want the applicants to have to go back to a contractor twice that would be an undue hardship. So what we ask is that we bring the case forward knowing that the fence that's in the public right away has to be removed and that if there's anything else then it will be all set before the applicant one time. Very good. So now with that, you help clarify for me, which so two portions of the fence, you're recommending approval. But then there's one portion of the fence which is just the 50% open piece. Right. How much of that is, are we looking at here? 23%. So if the board, so let me go back, if my mirror research me correct, the board is three inches. And they need, and I think the space is about, I'm sorry, just bear with me for one second. The board, excuse me, the board is actually four inches and the space is about two. And so when you take it, it says the surface. So if the surface of the board at four feet represents 50%, then you're looking at the space in between. And so what they have is they have, they have 26% open and not the... Right, so I guess my question was really, what portion of the watt, are we, because like there's the survey and the drawing up there is, it's a little confusing. Okay, so the green piece is public right away. Any fence that's there will have to be removed. From that portion of the green to where that goal line it was says lot number five. You see what says lot five? That five, that portion is their primary front yard. The four foot fence that's there is not 50% open, okay? And then right there at the front building wall line going across underneath the lot five, that portion of the fence is, some of it is seven feet. And then as you go around on lead better The topography drops two feet down so then what they've done is they've raised the fence to seven feet to kind of Balance the fence off And then as you go around to the back where's green it actually complies and And so there's seven portion, the seven foot foot portion is not the entire yard. It's just the portion with a topography is sloping and where the light from the building, the commercial complex across is shining towards their home. Is that more clear? Yes, yes, thank you. I'm pretty sure that pose for me. The same images in the staff report on page nine, you can maybe see it. A little better. I think the portion you were asking about was the four foot open port fence. No, I got it. Is the yellow part between the public right away and the taller fence? Thank you. Are there any other questions for City staff? Mr. Chair. Go ahead. Question for City staff. Mr. Chair, go ahead. A question for city staff. Was a, because it's seven foot fence, was a permit pulled because it was more than six foot. So you don't need a permit in the city of Alexandria for, well, let me step back. When we keep saying a permit, when the permit is required, there comes under code administration that planning and zoning. And so the code, I believe, under code administration not planning and zoning. And so the code, I believe under code administration, is not if it's graded in 10 because again, in the city ordinance, if this was adjacent to a school, you can go up to 10 feet. If this was adjacent to an industrial area, you can go to 10 feet without a permit and for residential, for residential. So the building code doesn't speak to that portion of that. So you wouldn't need a fence. But again, that's not planning and zoning. That's actually under code administration under the building code. Thank you. Okay, we know further questions for city staff. Oh, we have another question. This, what, I'm curious, what is the rationale for the 50% open requirement? I'm just thinking like what is a just an arbitrary number or? This well, it was adopted in 1992. So it predates us. However, I think the context was that if you look back even whether it's historic Rosemont or if it's historic Del Rey or any of the other communities, the pattern was the open picket fence. And so typically while the industry has changed, the notion of what that white picket fence scenario was. So that's where that's pretty much coming from from a historical context. But one of the things I think we're seeing also is that the nature of the fencing industry has changed from that. So when that was adopted, most of the fences actually originally, the fence regulations was three and a half feet, and we adopted it to four feet within four years, three, four years ago, to try to keep up with the industry. But the openness portion was something that council did not entertain when they changed the fence regulations. I see, thank you. One quick follow, Mr. Chair. Are there any exceptions at all for? Or, uh, solid fence? In a primary front yard? In a primary front yard? You could apply for a variance. Variants. But it's unlikely that it could meet all the variance. Right to your area. Except by the Commonwealth. Yes. Okay. If we're done with asking questions of city staff, we can move on to the staff. I'm sorry. I'm angel. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express my feedback. So I hired a reputable Fence Company, Halco, which I purposely chose because of the decades of experience as not only a Fence Company, but also in Alexandria. So I assumed they assured me that not only would be aesthetically pleasing and professional, but it also followed the code of Alexandria. So obviously, I was extremely frustrated and disappointed to find not only was it in violation, but also a portion of it was on the public right away. So I'm the founder of the H3 project, which is a 501C3 homeless and human outreach, a human trafficking street outreach organization. Of course, anyone not profit and even just being raised in the projects projects on welfare. I understand the value of a dollar. I would never have spent my hard earned money on a fence in the public right away. Had I known it was in the public right away. So I absolutely understand that portion needs to be removed and I respect to that. However, just for the record, the whole, a huge portion of the reasoning of building like the six-foot fence and the four-foot fence was because I've only lived there for about six months. Every day, multiple times a day, the laundromat is like right across the way. We would have folks laid out in the lawn. In some cases, intoxicated other, in other cases, just kind of hanging out. So they'd hang out in the front yard, some cases intoxicated in other cases, just kind of hanging out. So they'd hang out in the front yard, but they'd also leave trash. They'd leave cigarette butts. And so this was a way to kind of just mitigate that situation so that in my spare time, when I do have spare time, because nonprofits, I kind of work every day. But in my spare time, I didn't, I found myself just picking up trash. Picking up trash, picking up cigarette butts, and so it was a way that I could kind of have that peace of mind and that oasis and not have to worry about it. With the four foot, still have plenty of trash that kind of blows from the laundromat because now a lot of folks that kind of on the curb, but it's a lot less, so it's not as bad. The spacing I completely understand as 50% like if you had four inches of a board that 50% to me is two inches of space not understanding that four inches means four inches space and I just I left it up to the to Halco and so you know obviously that was on me because I assumed that they would do the right thing I didn't even say what the spacing would be. I just left it to them because they were the professionals. But further, the spacing does help in trapping some of that trash because it is a smaller spacing, so I'm not seeing as much. And even when the trash, like previously, when it would come through and people leave it, it would blow on to my other four connected townhouses. So I got lots of compliments actually from the neighbors. Wow, we don't have as much trash anymore in our yard because we kind of blow over. So, the spacing does help that a bit. But since it, and since the four foot and six foot was installed, there has not been the folks on my yard as much which it, which is also nice. Regarding the portion of the fence at six foot and seven foot, I'm going to go to the next slide. I'm going to go to the next slide. I'm going to go to the next slide. I'm going to go to the next slide. I'm going to go to the next slide. I'm going to go to the next slide. I'm going to go to the next slide. I'm going to go to the next slide. I'm going to go to the next slide. I'm going to go to the next slide. So it's definitely helpful having that bit that is seven foot because of the slope of the yard because it's smaller near the rear and then it kind of goes up more severe. And that's also in addition to my partner is a police with a K9 that dog can easily clear six foot and especially like just with that back patio. So part of it was also that so that the the doll can have more more room to run around, stay healthy, but also just to make sure that if there was someone that startled him, that he that he didn't jump over, it was also expressed just the lights from the businesses. Initially, they're super, super bright. It was like flood lights in the backyard. It was daylight in the middle of night. It has, I'm appreciative of the city for putting the shields. And so it's not as like spot on when you're back there. We still get lit up, but it's not as bad. And part of the seven foot where we're in the backyard, we don't have as much light. So that is nice, just as having a little bit of a waste of night when grilling or what not. But and the other thing is just the it is we have such a we what we thought was the Frank Yard. You know it's which we now know is not the right way. There's just a very small portion that actually can be fenced in because of that emergency and that utility easement to the rear. There's a huge, everyone, they are the four folks that live in the townhouses connected to us do drive through that property. So we can't do anything with that huge chunk. It's just the, it was really the, what was fenced was the max area that we could fence in. And of the five, of joining... And so your five minutes are... Oh joining you're five minutes or But if you have any other last just keep it real short Do you have anything else you'd like to wrap up with just real quick then the five adjoining properties There's only two that are individuals one you already got the letterful. I have another one. I think. Everyone else's operation or organizations, but overall just all of them have said how much they appreciate the fence and how we've done everything we can to clean up the area. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So for the board, are there any questions for the applicant. With no questions, the applicant I have one. So the city has recommended approval for two of the sections. And the one section that they are recommending denial for is the picket fence, which you have to have worked on to it anyway to remove it from the one section. Would you be opposed to modifying the remaining section to making it 50% open as you now understand what that means? No, I can understand it. I respect that, yeah. OK, thank you. Are there any other questions from board members? OK, so let's we have, thank you very much. We have one speaker that registered. Jonathan Cullinic. Cullinic. Cullinic. Yes, sir. Thank you. For the recommendation, Jonathan Cullinic, my Amy's partner. Just for the record, I am for the fence. Clearly, I'm a little biased as her partner, but so you're being her partner. You're kind of representing as the applicant. So I have no stake in the home. I don't own any of it. OK. I actually live in a separate residence, but spend almost almost all of my time there. Go ahead. So like Amy said, I've seen people sitting in the yard. We've been there for six months, and we were kind of spread out over the summer. Literally, Amy sent me a picture earlier today that didn't make it into this presentation, but I know it's kind of hard to see from that far away, but there's someone literally sitting on the sidewalk right outside the fence where they would normally sit in the yard. And part of that was because we have a couple of trees that provide shade And the laundromat did fortunately put up a Like a bench on their property now so some people do sit over there But some people are still coming over to ours just because again the tree providing shade We've had trash in the yard like Amy said we've picked up We spent so much time picking up trash and I'm primarily the one who does yard work. So I do a lot more picking up of trash. We hired, as Amy said, we hired, we hired Hal Fence. I specifically asked the sales rep that came up to the house. I said, hey, are there because I know other cities have set back in all that for fencing and he literally said to me, nope, not that I know of, we should be good to go. So we hired them again because of the trash, because of my K9. We've had numerous neighbors come by and compliment the fence. Just people, I don't even know who the neighbors are, but just people that walk the neighborhood that have stopped while we're outside doing yard work or picking up trash. That have come by and said, hey, this looks great. And even asking who we hired and we kind of give them a cautionary tale of that of what we're going through now with hiring them. We can't just the whole neighborhood once we once we found out the complaint went in. We drove around so many areas, so many different side streets and we've seen so many fences that are similar in nature that come right up to the right up to the edge of the property that are six feet, some are higher than six feet in the packet. There's some examples of that. And the biggest thing was the loss of space for us. Again, losing that, what we thought was our front yard. And now we know that the, that's public right away. Pretty much a little over half of it, I think it is. Coming up to the front, front of the house is right is coming up to the front of the house is right away and then the back of the yard not being able to do anything with that because of the emergency easement and the access that's needed for the neighbors to be able to go through so we lost a lot of our yard. Again I understand you know needs for needs for, and ordinances and all that. And I respect all of that. And I could understand if we built like this monstrosity of offense that was, you know, 12 feet tall and red in color or something like that. But we chose a nice cedar fence that most of the, most of the neighbors have either cedar or pine. So we chose something that fit in with the characteristics of the neighbors have either cedar or pine. So we chose something that fit in with the characteristics of the neighborhood and we decided to go with that. And again, the seven foot, we understand the 50% section, the seven foot section, again, because of that slope, that we found out there were, in hindsight, there were alternatives to coming up with fixes for the slope but because we have that slope that comes from the house down to where the fence actually is it's again it's almost two feet so again my dog being a police canine he's in decent shape would easily clear that if if it were six feet because in reality it's four and a half, five feet, jump for him. I think I hit most of the main points. I know there's pictures in there of what the property used to look like. We've done a lot of improvements with not just the fence, but cleaning up brush, before where the fence was on the side of the house, it was these giant, I think they were like 18 foot shrubs that were uncapped and just kind of an eye sore. So we removed those and put the fence up and leave of that to try to help with the aesthetics of the property and everything like that. So I think that's it. Thank you. Are there any questions for the speaker? Okay, so we will move on to board deliberations. Would anyone like to start? So I understand that the applicant agreed to a certain modification for the portion that was this brief. Yeah, let's put that to the city staff. So if to the staff, the applicant in the question that I asked said that they're already going to remove the portion that's already been agreed to in the public right of way, they're going to remove the portion that, sorry, been agreed to in the public right of way. They're going to do that. And then they agreed to make the remainder of the picket fence, the shorter part of the fence, to 50% open as it is per the regulations. And it would then the staff, if that, at that point, would the staff recommend approval for this? So, I probably would suggest would be a condition, be added to your motion, and make the motion very clear that of what you're approving and what you're not approving, that something like the approval of the six and seven foot fence in the required secondary front yard with the condition that the four foot fence be modified to be 50% open. Thank you. Does that answer the question? I think I had the same question. Yes, because I just want to make sure the lander is all right with that solution. Absolutely. Okay. Do we have any other questions or comments? Ann? No, I know that area. It's like the pizza place and the laundromat. It's like kind of off the Northside 10. As soon as you go east on Mount Vernon on that Gleepside, and I don't like running around there at night. I've seen what you guys are talking about where, you know, a fence is helpful, especially for, you know, late night and things. I would, the conditions I would. Okay, so a little, we're looking for a motion here, but I guess we're looking for a motion with conditions. So we have to make sure we get the conditions correct. Do I, am I going to get a motion from somebody. I'll give it a try. I move that we approve the staff changes to the four-foot fence to bring it in compliance with the 50% open rule. Is Christian saying does that do those conditions? The only thing that I would possibly suggest adding, whether you added or not, it will be required to be removed, but just make it clear that the portion of the fence in the right of way is not part of the approval. In addition to what I just said, the second condition is that the portion of the fence that is on public property must be removed. Ms. Christensen, did you have anything further to suggest? I think that covers it. Thank you. Do we have a... So... So that was any motion to approve? That was a motion to approve. Okay. And Ms. Bowman, you... Second. Okay. All in favor, say, aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed, same sign a unanimous six votes to approve so this motion is that the motion is passed and this item is approved thank you both with conditions it. Thank you. Okay. The next item on the docket is the minutes. Consideration of the minutes from the October 7th, 2024, Board of Zoning Appeals hearing. Mr. Secretary, did you review the minutes? Yes, sir. And did you have any findings for the minutes? They are. So with the meeting minutes being accurate, I would like to have them approved by unanimous consent. All opposed? OK. So they are now approved by unanimous consent. Nobody opposed? The only other business that we have, we did not receive any new applications for December, so potentially canceling the hearing, we'll reach out to you to confirm that, when we're back in the office. I know Mr. Fully, you had spoken to staff about the possibility of scheduling a workshop for the board to talk with staff. December may not be the best month. Just I feel like it's a busy month for people. But we'll reach out to the board and pull you about the potential of having a workshop before a public meeting. So maybe at six in January or February, if that seems amenable to everybody and hopefully we'll have a seventh board member by then as well. So it'd be nice to wait to include them. Well, we have everybody here for city staff to kind of get an idea of what's possible. Can we have a quick read on how many of you could come say an hour early? Would that be a challenge? Okay. We find Miss Bowman. If I'm available back today, it's fine. Okay. This would be a Monday. It would be a Monday. There might be cutting it close for me, but it should work. Okay, so we would look for maybe an hour early if we could do that. And I guess we'll just play by year when that comes up. We'll look for some dates and send that out to you. I guess the other question would be if by chance we don't have cases to be heard. With the board one, it's still meet and have the workshop then. I know we've said no to that in the past, but- I would rather not drag everybody in here and- For no. Yeah, for just a workshop if we don't have to. Okay. I mean, is- is that everyone concur to that or- Yeah, it was about a meeting in Lighthorse. So what we had talked about was thinking about efficiencies for the board. For example, you know, just looking for ideas that perhaps we could change things up in order to, you know, make the board. So like, for instance, tonight, we had a pretty long deliberation, but years in the past, we would have many more cases. And we seem to be having not so many more cases, and maybe to streamline things. And this is just my suggestion, but we need to talk to city staff about what's legal, what can we do? Can we do something that would make more sense for the board to make some changes to make things more streamlined? That's all. Right. In addition to that, too, just in the past, when we've had workshops, it's just a good time to ask general questions that aren't sort of case specific. If you're like, we keep getting these requests about this, can you explain this in more detail sort of anything that is sort of a good time to kind of bounce those ideas? I'm really just happy to. We had quite a few of those questions tonight about. Yeah, I have more process questions about what's the ability to do? So, yes, so it depends on the violation exactly how the penalties escalate. Typically, we are not looking to try to give people monetary fines. We issue a warning notice. That's our first step. Really, I think, in all of our planning violation cases. And then we try to work with them to bring them into compliance. We have some cases where people are not amenable to bring it into compliance, they're not responsive. And we have to give fines. Typically, I think offenses are $100, do you remember? Yeah, so I mean, I can't think of a time when we've had somebody that didn't either come to BZE to get relief or bring it into compliance in some way. That's a question. Oh, no, I weren't the meetings. Well, I guess the meeting, we're still in meeting. Oh, yeah. Well, I guess the meeting, we, the meeting of still is, we are still, still in meeting. Okay, yeah, we're still in meeting. So yeah, just go ahead. Last questions. It might be better for the workshop, but I would be curious for the workshop to learn how sort of trends or, you know, any efficiencies identified in the BZA cases and the process itself might make its way to city council and Sure, form changes in the zoning code for for example Yeah, so just to just to give you just so that maybe you guys can be thinking about some ideas of things that you'd want to talk about or questions that you might have. So the special exception process kind of came out of that. It used to be that the BZI really only heard variances and appeals. And there was tons of cases that the BZI was getting as variances and they just didn't rise to the level of meeting that really strict standard. So they created the special exception process and the criteria. Board worked with staff that ultimately went to the City Council as a text amendment to the zoning ordinance. And there are things that we look at like porches are a really good example. They were coming to the BJA for variances for porches and none of them met the criteria. But obviously we thought staff thought they were a great addition. The board always was wanting to support them and couldn't. So we added that to the special exception. So it's definitely something that there's a lot of limitations to because the BZA is a quasi-judicial board and a lot of our regulations do come from straight from the state. But if we can carve out specific types of approvals that can meet a criteria, we can do them as special exceptions in many cases so they don't need a variance. So I just like to say that, you know, that question right there was essentially my question because when I don't know if you guys remember that I sent around the letter that, you know, that we as a board and that I have to sign off on as the chairman sends to the City Council every year. Well, when I went and wrote it up, I thought that that would be the place to make some recommendations to the City Council. And staff told me that the City Council basically does not review those things. And so the thing to do would be to take it through another avenue to City Council, but we needed to prep it, prepare it, and that staff would help us do that. So these types of things, like if you guys see things like what we were just talking about, if there's things that need to be changed, or you see kind of trends or different issues that come up that maybe we'd like to suggest some changes to the special attention, maybe adding things to it or whatever it might be. That's what the workshop is really all about, trying to. We're here for more than just the board meetings. We're here representing the citizens. We get appointed here by the city council. We're here to represent its citizens, but we have to comply with the laws and stuff. So if there are things that we feel as a citizen body, that need to change, we should recommend those changes. And there's a process for those recommendations. So if there were things that required the zoning ordinance to be amended, which likely they would, it goes through what's considered a text amendment process, which staff repairs the staff report. that we have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. We have to do with the process. Okay. Mr. Chair, just one last moment. I was putting in the 2025 calendar today. It is out for our meetings next year. And I just want to make sure everybody saw that in April and October. We meet on the first Monday, instead of the second Monday. So people might want to go forward and put all their schedule in for next year. Thank you. April and October were on the first Monday instead of the second. Thank you. Yeah, those were two avoid some holidays that fell on the second Monday. Okay, thank you. So I think we can now adjourn for the evening. Thank you all. That's just that for today. No problem. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.