you you you you you The workshop for the City Commission for Thursday, April 17, 2025 will come to order. Please join me in silencing your cell phones. This evening, Ms. Con Evans has certified municipal clerk and former city administrator from the city of Oak Hill will serve us here on the dias as the clerk. Madam city clerk, please call the roll. Thank you mayor. Commissioner Perrine, please note she is excused absent. Commissioner Ashley. Here. Commissioner McGurk. Here. Vice mayor Martin. Here. Mayor Cleveland. Here. Thank you. Every day I count my lucky stars that we live in News Mournabeech and so in deference to the shooting, another school shooting in one of our school systems, our university, a moment of silence, please, for those involved in what's going on at FSU right now. Hey, man. Thank you. So this will be a workshop tonight. And the order is going to be a little bit different. Remember, this is at least our second of a series. Last time we went through the presentation and actually had, at that point, the citizens talk next. And then we cut the commission short and there wasn't any time for the commission to talk. Tonight the answers to many questions that were brought up at last workshop will be discussed by the applicant and then the commission will opine their comments from both the first and second session and then we'll have public participation and it'll be a public participation where questions can be asked. The applicant will be keeping his notes and respond at the end of all the public participation question by question. So that you leave here with some definitive information that you didn't come here with. I hope that helps you and suits your needs. Anyway, we think that's the most supportive for our community. So with that said, Mr. Gove, our chief planner, ready for you to start. Sir, if it's more, if you have more than just introduce Mr. Stortz, that's fine, but whatever you need to do to do sir. Yes that's basically what I've been told my role is to introduce clan who probably nobody needs to be introduced to him at this point in the workshop but I'm here with Stephanie Doster our manager, to represent the planning department, since our director is at LaCountry. And we're here to receive the input just like you and answer any questions that we can. Very good. If you and Stephanie will stand by, we'll make sure there's some questions might be directed at the city. And so if you all take notes, we'll have an opportunity for the city to respond as well. With that, Mr. Storch, the floor is yours, sir. Thank you. First of all, I should tell you that we have been working closely with staff and I really do appreciate everything they have given as far as the suggestions, the requests, everything that they have needed and to make this and the city attorney to make this a cleaner, better understood, clear agreement. And so we've been working with them for almost two years now, if not more than two years, to try and pull this together and do what Commissioner McGurk has said, which is he wants to make sure that the details are provided for. So we've tried to answer all the questions that we've received since the last workshop. And so what I'd like to do is I'd like to walk through and these questions and then provide answers to them and how we resolve them or hopefully resolve them as we go through. So the first one is, can we clarify the strong water protection requirement? So this was a question that was brought up by a number of people, Sanja Gidre, the residence coalition, all the commissioners, of course, are very interested in this, as you can imagine, Chip Weston. So yes, so what we've done is we've clarified that the stormwater management system, again, this is a stormwater management system that you recall looks like nothing else we have ever had in New Smirno. This is a stormwater management system literally designed for the unprecedented storms that we've had in the last few years to actually deal with hurricanes and to make sure as part of the guarantee that none of the water off of Durant Park Innovation Center flows into the Venetian Bay community or the Utilities Commission property. And again, this is very important. No construction is permitted until the studies have been completed and the design engineering is approved by the city and St. John's Water Management District. And if you notice in the agreement itself, it says we'll have hearings on those very issues to make sure that what we're doing in and what the city has worked with us on and St. John's work with us on is approved and people can ask questions about it. Again, many of this, from the next question, many of the same residents have asked this. And again, I apologize. I was in the hearing last time. I couldn't understand everyone's name. So if I mispronounce the name, if I don't hear the name, I apologize. There was a gentleman I believe from Venetian Bay named Mr. Caesar. Oh good. I got lucky on that one. So one of the things he was asking about was stormwater studies. Will there be stormwater studies before any construction? And absolutely. So the stormwater study process is key to everything. We don't know what's out there right now. We don't know where the stormwater current runoff is going. We don't know which basin is going to. We know that we know some of the stuff. We know that the Samsonic and Alps, for instance, breaks. Some of it goes south, some of it goes north. We know that some of this land, some of the water on this land, and goes to the Turnbull Basin, small amount under the interstate. We know that the water, for instance, there's a culvert under 44 that goes right into the airport in the Venetian Bay, not in our property, but on the adjoining property. So there's all kind of things that have to be looked at before you designed this. We have to understand where the water is going now, how the water can be properly maintained. We're not allowed to, as you know, starve existing wetland systems. We have to make sure that those wetland systems are still provided, but not provide any additional water to those systems so it doesn't have an impact. So that's the goal right now and how we do it. Fortunately, where are the only people I know of that literally have the potential of being able to do what we're talking about doing? Because when this wall of water comes during the hurricanes that they came during Ian and Milton, when the wall of water comes, so much water is going down at the same time, but you have to have a place to port to go. Right now it just goes wherever it currently goes, but if you have another place for it to go, such as the thousands of acres of conservation easement that we have directly adjacent this property. Then we believe it can be designed in such a way where it will not have an impact to anyone else in this area. And we'll not have an impact on the Deering Park Innovation Center residents and businesses either. So that's goal, but it going to take years of studies and design. Next one, who maintains the stormwater system and provides the annual analysis system? Some folks thought that the cost of the stormwater system or the maintenance of the stormwater system was going to be a city of responsibility. It is not. It is clear in the agreement that that responsibility is with the developer or the developer entity such as the ICDD, a stewardship district or a P.O.A. Those are going to be responsible for maintaining the system. Those of the ones who are going to be responsible for building the system. Those are the ones who are going to be responsible for permitting and bringing that system to you to make sure it is what you're looking for. In addition, and this is something that we probably should have had with some other projects. By the way, as I walk through these things, I am hoping that we see this as a model for how we can do things in the future for some other things. We are doing an annual analysis of our stormwater system. We are required to do it, we are required to pay for it, disagree. And then we're required to report that analysis to you for your review, to make sure that it's continuing to function as it's supposed to. That's something that I think would be a good thing for you to consider with future developments as well. Because again, it's when they get out of whack, it's when they start to have it and maintain. It's when those are the things that create problems with your storm water and create flooding oftentimes. Next, are we encouraging transportation other than automobiles? So, this is Commissioner Ashley that lives in Venetian Bay and is very concerned about how this will work with personal electric vehicles. You know, again, we're all trying to avoid automobiles if we can. And so we want to make sure that we do this in the right way. So we are doing land uses that are planned in conjunction with trails, with paths, but multimodal paths. We're encouraging everything to connect and requiring everything to connect. For instance, our commercial village, we want to be able to have people from this area use a personal electric vehicle, bicycle, pedestrian, get there without automobile. We want to be able to make sure that folks can actually use these vehicles to get to a job if they have jobs in the business part. This is what we're looking for and we're planning for this now. Now those vehicles will be required to meet all the city, county, and state standards. That means they may have been registered, they will have been licensed. They're not going to be able to run willy-nilly on this area. And we are specifically putting in there, by the way, that minors are not allowed to use these vehicles in these areas because we want this to be safe. And the potential liability for not doing that is potentially enormous. Next is a new bridge required over 95. I believe Cindy Sistine indicated that. And so just to let everyone know, no, a new bridge is not being planned or required at this point over 95. But you have to think in the future, and in the future what you're looking for is what's going to happen in the future. The county asked us to provide a right-of-way to the interstate in order to in the event they ever decided to put a bridge across there to create some relief for 44 that they'd have an ability to do that. We did that and so we provided for that right away for that connection but we are not required to build it or not and no one is required to build it at this point no one is planning on building that bridge, but it is being planned for just in case. Next, how do we prevent the connection, or how do we provide for connections to a joining parcel to prevent the necessity of using the 49th, 45th, 44th. Again, one of the concerns always, especially during nice days where everyone from Orlando is coming to the beach, is how do you avoid state road 44? And so what we've done is we've provided connections between us and South Village. South Village will extend airport road through their property. It will tie into our road, which will allow people from Venetian Bay to actually go all the way from Venetian Bay to the commercial village and to Wemis and Boulevard and wherever you need to go there without having to go and stay road 44. Those are the things we're doing. The same thing we are working with the city now to also require anyone who develops on the east side. The King of Rady parcel or the ocean gate parcel, they need to be able to connect to these areas so you don't have to provide access to 44. The same thing, by with Williams and going all the way through now, all that area will be able to connect without going to 44. That's the goal. When is it, Siddi Harris asked this question, and I think it's important, when is a traffic impact analysis required to determine impacts and possible required improvements to the existing road systems? Well, the key there is when are we going to build? Because you don't want to do it now, because the road system may not be required right now. But at the time we are building it, the time we're adding to the road system, that's when we're required to do individual traffic impact analysis. At the same time, we're also required in this to do a sub-regional analysis for the entire area to find out what's going on, to find out if there's any requirements for improvements to state road 44, improvements to intersections, various other areas that would be done and you were not allowed to build even the first phase of anything until that analysis has been done and accepted by all parties. But at the same time, I should point out that every single parcel, all the phases that are internal, all of those phases are going to be required to have separate TIAs to determine the impacts and the potential requirements for improvements. Can we clarify the maximum number of hotels? I believe Sandy, CIS, and the Commissioner Martin also asked about this because you want to make it clear. It wasn't clear whether there was 600 hotels and then another 150 hotels in the industrial park. It's not. We've clarified that and it's a total of 600 hotel rooms for the entire project of which 150 could be in the industrial park near those businesses to provide hotels for the businesses. Will there be affordable housing? Elizabeth Bell asked about this, and I think it's important. We've worked hard to try to figure out how to deal with this. So after the construction of the non-resensual areas, and that's half million square feet of non-resensresidential and then permitting another half million square feet, you can actually build residential housing. But there is no plans to put in government type sectional housing in this area. What we do have is the potential for a diverse value structure, different types of housing, different for different for different incomes Because we anticipate there will be a lot of different folks living here who have jobs in the business part, who have jobs in the commercial area, so who are policemen in the substation, who are firemen in the substation that may be in South Village. These are all folks who need to have different levels of valuation. So we can't provide, quote unquote, section 8 affordable housing. We can provide housing options that will hopefully allow for all of our citizens to have an opportunity to live in a wonderful place. And so in a live work and play environment. So that's what we're working toward. Our accessory dwelling units permitted. Commissioner Morton pointed out that the ADU, the permission of the ADU, the mother-in-law apartments that we allow for single-family homes, because again, mother-in-law apartments really are an necessity at this point for both college kids mother and laws, I should say mother and laws parents and for providing some potential rental opportunities. Those are allowed for every single family lot but it wasn't clear that only one was allowed And And so we've clarified that only 180 years is allowed. I've also clarified that those 80 years are not required. They're simply permitted for each individual homeowner to be able to build, if necessary. Can we provide amenities within the community? I think this is one of the questions that come because of the issues you had with Venetian Bank. So it is so important that if we have amenities, that we have amenities for these various individuals, subdivisions and residential site plans, if we have those that they're built with any time frame that allows everyone to use them. As you saw, that was a prolonged elimination bank. And so what we've done is we put a provision and that indicates that these are all the amenities that we may have. Each individual residential, subdivision, or residential project will be required to have at least one minute. Okay, you can have more, but they can have, they must have at least one minute for the area. At the same time, that minute or those amenities have to be built by the time you have 50% of the seat-o's in your project. but you have a time frame for when those things must be built. Gina Holt mentioned she was concerned about bike paths and the impact on wildlife corridors and the impact of the habitat corridor altogether. So will bike paths, some bike paths, go to the wildlife corridors. will. The sun trail system does require the use of wildlife corridor areas as part of the pedestrian and bicycle trail system. But sun trail does not allow for any motorized or electric vehicles on those trail system. These are, sun trail is a specific state program and grant program that has a lot of strings attached to building trails. So yes, they are required in those areas, but they are not allowed to have anything other than fairly quiet bicycles and hopefully quiet pedestrians. Nicole Bell mentioned this, and I thought it was a good question. Can the natural vegetation areas be connected to expand the habitat corridors? If you recall, we have reserved at least 400 acres of natural vegetation areas within During Park Innovation Center. look like those were islands. We have agreed that those natural vegetation areas should all be connected, and then they should all be connected to our conservation easements in the south, that during park north conservation easements and the farm to the local plan conservation easements. That way, these conservation easements that we're creating within Innovation Center will be part of a habitat corridor of over 71 square miles. That's the way to make this work and the way to provide actual habitat for the area. A number of folks talked about whether we could layer those conservation easements. How do we prepare? How do we preserve those conservation easements? In fact, the residents coalition was one of those folks. So we actually required layering of the conservation when I say layering, we have multiple beneficiaries. So if you have one beneficiary, the city of Usperna Beach, for instance, and you know, another beneficiary of St. John's Water Management District, when you have another beneficiary, a environmental organization, then all three organizations would have to approve any changes so it's conservation easement. It makes it very difficult. And we've used that layering technique for a lot of during FARC already and with the conservation easements we didn't form. And in that case, it was Audubon, St. John's, and Bush County. But that's just something to think about. If, by the way, we've specifically provided New Skarner Beach can each, can be one of those beneficiaries if it's so chooses. I mean, you have to agree to it. But if you so choose, you'd be able to do it at no financial cost to the city. We'd still be responsible for maintaining those conservation areas. There you go. The next one. Who pays for the natural vegetation areas in the Habitat Quarters, the maintenance we do, just like we've been paying for those Habitat Quarters and nature conservation areas we have in Farmington and during Port and Warthian and during Port Center? It costs a lot of money. You have to do it right. You have to spend a lot of time taking out the native vegetation. Robbie is here somewhere today. There he is. Robbie spends a lot of time working on making sure that those areas are pristine, that there are something that we can all manage together, that we take out the invasive species, and that we do this in such a way where it also does not change the flow of natural waters. So it's quite a job and we'll be doing the exact same thing in During Park Innovation Center. By the way, we were also asked who pays for the, all the other issues. I think one of the members of the Residence Coalition asked this. Who pays for everything else? So just to clarify, during the park pays for the installation of everything. It pays for the construction of the stormwater management system. It pays for the roads, separate wagons and if we are impson's, a pay for the county or someone else. But it pays for the roads within internal roads. It pays for the landscaping we put in there. It pays for everything. The city will pay for the maintenance of the city public roads, just like you do anywhere else. But all the landscaping and the trees and everything next to those areas, we pay for. We pay for maintaining that. You pay for fire and police, just like you would anything else, but everything else in the steering park that I can think of is paid for by the developer or one of the entities we've talked about. This is an interesting one. Is the city responsible for any financial contribution in creating pad ready sites and recruiting businesses? I think Commissioner Ashley and Commissioner Martin talked about this. So the question is at some point, you know, we have this business park we're creating. And to get businesses to come to that business park, you really want something where you, where the businesses can come in and just build their building and be done. They don't have to worry about storm water, they don't have to worry about roads, they don't have to worry about utilities, they don't have to worry about dividing the lots on them. So that's what a pad ready site is. So we're responsible for all of that to create those pad ready sites when we're ready. We are not at the city of this point of each has absolutely no financial obligations whatsoever to help with this. It's in the city's best interest to help us with potentially marketing for bringing investment in, to bring businesses in. That's something you do regularly already. And it's in the city's interest to potentially help us with grants that you may have to sign off as for grants to help some getting some of these things done. But it will cost you not to die, is the answer. Exactions. So this was the city, I think, Byron White, Brian White asked this question. Can the city, can the landowner just give the city the land for the sports complex and the police station and build and maintain everything for the city and what can the land owner provide? So this is a complex question and it's going to take a little while to answer but it's important. So right now, during park is providing the land. We are providing land. We worked at the allowable staff before. But we can't give it to you. The state does not allow us to give you land. Does it allow us to give you these executions? The state requires that any such executions be paid for through impact be credits. That's in section 163.31801, per M5, per M8. But to develop the land, the builder worked a pair of variety of impact fees for roads and for recreation and police and fire protection to mitigate the impacts of the project. So that's why the state requires in order to have these exactions you have to basically pay for them with impact fee credits. And it's a dollar for dollar basis. So when you look at this, the value of that land that the city is looking for, that 55 acres of land or a plus for the sports complex and the 10 acres or 12 acres of land you're looking for for the police station, it's gonna be worth a lot of money after this is developed. Because you have the roads in there, you have the strong water system built, you'll have the landscape again, this is gonna be a very valuable piece of property. But what we can do is we've tried to work with the city to find a way to mitigate the cost. And we've done that by saying that the city can buy this land, you can have it transferred to them at any time. So if they do it before all this is in, and we make a determination to do an appraisal of the land based on that, at that point. Then the logically, the land is going to be worth far, far less at that point than it would be at the end point after everything is developed. And because, I mean, again, the cost of everything that goes in, the landscaping, the strong word, it's enormous and therefore increases the value of the land. So one estimate of the difference of the potential praise value before the improvements and the value after improvements was about $16 million that we would be giving up by doing that. That was just on the sports complex site, by the way. And that's fine. But if, and I can't give you an advice as to what to do, but if I were you, if this goes through, I would suggest that you ask for the appraisal soon, you may want to wait until after the wetland studies are done. And so we can make sure that you have all upends or 80 percent upends at least. But after that is done, that would be a time that would be appropriate for the city to ask for this because the appraisal would be at that point, it would be basically raw land appraised and you could simply give impact, recreation impact, the credits that we don't have to use. But you can give them and we'll put it in a bank and that's done. So, and then at the same time, you need to understand that we will also allow you to connect to our stormwater system about paying for it. So by doing that, typically when you have a piece of profit you buy, you have to put stormwater on it. And under the city's regulations, which is one of the strongest in the county, the storm water for this site would probably take somewhere around 11 to 22 acres of the site for 55 acres of site. Because you have to put ponds in, you have to make sure you have 150 percent capacity. I mean, it's really a lot, especially with the kind of things we're talking about. If you're part of our regional system, if you're part of our companies of system, and we just take somebody, take your capacity for free, that frees up all that land for you. And so that's part of what we can do without being paid for. Further, if you'll notice in the agreement, we've agreed that you're not part of the PUA, the CDD, the stewardship district, whatever it is. You don't have a vote in it. You don't have a vote right to vote in it. But you have no, a bill, a no requirement to pay a monthly fee. So you're getting that maintenance of the strong-water maintenance system, the landscaping and everything else, for free. So that's something else we can do in perpetuity. Thirdly, we have agreed, if you'll notice in the agreement, that we're going to building you road access, we'll be building utilities to your site, and we'll be building all of this at no cost in the city as part of the development of that section of the airport innovation center. So that's a guarantee that we will in fact increase the value of your property as we build this. All right, next one. Cindy Harris suggested this or asked this question. Can the plan provide for a larger vegetative buffer along the sacred 44 than already planned? So if you recall, we have provided for a 50 foot vegetative buffer, natural agitation to leave everything as it is or enhance it. We've looked at this, and yes we can. So we've changed this to a minimum of now, a minimum of 75 foot wide buffer along 44 that would separate 44 from the commercial village. Next one was Commissioner Ashley in Martin again. Can the plan require the planting of shade trees along the pedestrian paths? Because I showed a picture last time about, you know, paths and shade trees, which is what we're doing done in during Port North and during Port Center. And I think it's a great idea. So we've now added that to this. Those shade trees are now required because that encourages pedestrian traffic and encourages people to walk in these areas because it's shaded, especially in the summer. All right, next is Chip Weston. Ask this question because Chip sees waves in boulevard as something that can be really special, as a special way of for entrance and for people to go down. And when I think of the word boulevard, that's exactly what I think of. Really something special, wooded and everything else. So will Williamson Boulevard be landscaped? Yes. So this shows you some of the trees designs for this true boulevard that we're talking about. Trees all along, trees of the median landscape areas. That to do know, since this is a county right of way, we had to get the county to agree to this. The county would only agree to it is if we're the ones that are putting it in, of course, and we're the ones maintaining it, because they will not maintain it. The county only provides simple roadways a swale along that roadway giant ditch and mowing it twice a year. That doesn't create that special feeling, that sense of place that we're looking for in during Park Innovation Center. So we've agreed to do this. At the last workshop, Jess Romero asked this, and I think it was a good one. So, we provide that we're required to provide the construction of a half million square feet of non-residential and the permitting, full permitting for another half million square feet of non-residential prior to building a single residential unit. Josh, I mean, Jess asked just asked if we can clarify the mean and construct, means of construction, constructed. And I thought that was a good question. In fact, there's a number of things that we need to clarify and put definitions in. We'll be working on part tomorrow with the staff. We added the completion of the construction shall be defined as a construction of a building that has received final certificate of occupancy. And of course this is all market-driven. So when we provide that final certificate of occupancy for that building, people will be moving in, we'll have a business there. So that's a nice thing as well. And these were, this next one is really important because this is something that we've all worked so hard on. We've worked on trying to create this vision of what we as a community want in this area. This is a potentially special place. It's a corner of 95. It's a corner of 44. It has Williamson going to the middle of it, it could be something really different. But we have a vision here of planning this as a regional idea where everything fits, everything is together, everything is cohesive. So the question is, what happens if someone comes in and tries to change this? How do we maintain that vision? And as you know, this is again because of Venetian Bay. Because Venetian Bay, there was a vision for Venetian Bay. There was a clear vision for Venetian Bay. But during an economic downturn, the developer of Venetian Bay, who's a wonderful friend, Jerry Johnson, lost Vennexon Bay. He lost it because of the economy. He had mortgages on the property. The banks took it back and they sold it to the highest bidder, which you're not going to be GSM. GSM did not share that vision. So that's why you have some disjunction in Fin nation bay right now. And it is a shame. We do not want that. You have to remember, when we bought this property for Innovation Center, we bought it because We didn't want some other developer, who I will not name, from being able to buy this property and have something that did not fit with what we were doing in the rest of our project. So we bought this, even though we had 60,000 acres that we'd have for 100 years, we bought a series of properties to prevent anyone from impacting those areas. And so I've got to tell you that landowner and the Deering Family are committed to maintaining this vision quality as part of the entire Deering Park plan. This is not just this piece. It's everything we're doing. So we can't let anything of poor quality in this area because it would affect the values and what we're doing for everything else and the legacy. We can't imagine letting another developer do what happened to Venetian Bay. But there are some things we can do to make people feel better about this. One of the things in Venetian Bay, if you recall, is that Venetian Bay, or GSM, came in. They said, we don't want to do this. We can't do this or whatever it was. They came to the commission. The commission at that time voted to change the PUD, to allow for these some of these things. So I will tell you what our standards are. You know what our standards are. I will tell you what our intent is. I will tell you that this property is not mortgaged. We don't own dime on this property and we have the financial capability of making sure that this vision is carried through. But just to make sure we have also proposed in here, which, you know, I'm hoping that Kerry is not telling me this isn't in friendship on future commissions, power. But we've also required that any potential change or reduction in the requirements for this project would require a supermajority of this council. It would require four out of five. That's how we help maintain that vision. I just wanna close with this. Remember we've been spending two years on this. The city approached the landowner, this wasn't our idea at that point. The city approached the landowner about two years ago to work on this vision. And we worked hard to listen staff to the commission, to the stakeholders, to craft this vision, because we know what this could become. When Williamson is built, and if it starts going in a parcel by parcel, subdivision by subdivision development, it will not be what we are looking for, and will not the neighbor that we want to do during part north and during part center and farming. We share your vision. We share your vision quality. We share your vision of making this something special. And I know it's been very hard work. But I want to thank, I want to express the during part, the during families appreciation for everyone who's helped craft this vision because we've got so many comments from so many areas, so many stakeholders, the staff, the commission, we've worked very hard on this. And I'm hoping that where we are now is we're instilling the process of finalizing this and getting to the point where we can now start planning the next stage which is the studies that we need to finish this out. Does that help? Yeah sure did. Thank you. I'd glad to appreciate that and so you just stay right there. I mean we'll have a little back and forth here for workshop style. We'll start with the vice mayor. Well, I have a series of questions, both of which don't need to be done in a tight pose, don't need to be discussed right now. Okay, and by the way, I wonder if I can bring Ernie. I want to bring Ernie Cox up in me, because Ernie's been supervising a lot of the construction in Daring Park, North Daring Park Center. And obviously, he's been very involved in the planning on this. And Ernie, by the way, as you know, well, maybe you don't know. But he was part of the back-cock ranch team that we've worked on to deal with the stormwater issue. So I want him here as well to help answer. OK. Well, just going through the contract kind of thing, you know I'm big on definitions. I am. I do. Because we all read different things into it. I didn't know that a portable housing automatically meant section 8. My use of the term all-income suggests that everyone would have an income which section 8 does not necessarily. The term affordable housing has certain specific definitions as to the amount of income someone has and the amount that housing can cost. You can't build housing for that number. You can provide alternatives to help provide for for attainable housing or workforce housing or everyone can call it. But I can't use the term affordable housing because it does have a specific meaning. Okay. So, okay. Definition for a vegetative buffer. I'd like to see it defined. I agree. Oh, those ADUs. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I noticed that the ADUs are excluded from the 2150 residential units. How many residential lots are available for ADUs? How many we present we have with single family? And while he's looking that up. Yeah, I think we're looking at it. There are probably going to be around 900 single family lots, if I had to get 925. 925. So instead of the 2150, it could be closer to 3000 residential residential units. No the 80 use don't really count as residential units per se but when they are when we're doing our reviews for traffic when we're doing our reviews for anything else those 80 use will be counted as are built we don't know how many 80 use will actually be there because it's the decision of the individual property on whether to put one on. No I understand that but it seems to obfuscate the total number of residential units because most definitions do consider that a residential unit and while it says okay okay we won't belaborate. We have a minimum of 800 square feet in a couple of places, but we don't have a maximum And so to balance that out We'll do that. We'll do that. Okay. Thanks and Let's see You know, we used oh I'm big on this. I know That you said one amenity is required, but a community center and a pool, I think would be very important to each home on our association, particularly since we're trying to be conservation minded. We don't want people putting in scads of swimming pools. And if they have a community center and a pool, that would really help. I will tell you, it depends. So don't forget, anything you put in there has to be maintained. So the residents, the subdivision you're talking about has to be able to maintain it. And if you have a small residential subdivision, they cannot afford to maintain a community center and a pool. And a piece of the cost ridiculously. So it depends on the size. What is, you don't quantify the size of any HOAs, but we do know what happens. I mean, for example, somebody could put in a dog park and say there's your one amenity for 1,000 residents. So you see what I mean? So we want to be very, I agree. And again, it's not for, as you and I will tell you this, as staff works with us on this. They will also make suggestions as we're going through this process as to whether sufficient amenities are provided. I think one of them, I may, good to be with you. I'm sorry. Ernie Cox. Yeah, I know. I'm going to thank you. Yeah, so as we work our way through each of these site plans, we'll make what we hope will be appropriate decisions for each of the neighborhoods. I tend to go and use the subdivision. I like to think of neighborhoods. Depending on how big it is, it may have one amenity. It may have two, but what I like to see, we, I live in a community called Abacoa down in Jupiter. And some communities have pools, community pools and clubhouses. Some communities have more nature-based parks. Some have places where there might be, there might be an open field. Like my neighborhood has, the kids called the big field and the kids just go to the big field and the big field is where everybody plays All it is is a big field with grass and trees around it So I think what we'd like to do is is Require that there be an amenity within each neighborhood And then leave it to that neighborhood as we develop it to come in. Now, so we're clear, we only got 925 single family homes on the property. That's not a lot of single family homes. And if we don't make sure there are amenities for that neighborhood or those neighborhoods. We're not going to be able to sell those homes. So I wouldn't want to put something that says you have to have a pool and a clubhouse in every community. But I think we could probably add some specific language that it's got to be sized to meet the population within that community. If you had X number of things because, right, as it's written, you could have 1,000 homes in a dog park and you're done. That's true. And I like that earning. That's good. OK. Anything else? I'm guessing you want me to. Oh, OK. Well, let's see. We talk, I'm not going to go through all of them because some of the ones they said are just typos, but there are things like on page six that says bond or credit of a letter of credit. We'd always talked about using a bond for the stormwater. And so those are different items as far as I know. And I'll explain. And who decides and when? Well, I'll explain what it is. So a letter of credit is you basically put that much money into the bank, which you can withdraw. The otherwise, you basically pay for an insurance company bond. And that costs you money. If we have enough cash to simply put it in the bank with a letter of credit where we don't want to pay for a bond. We prefer that. You prefer the letter of credit? Well we have, when I'm going to put it this way, we have in the past we've used letters of credits for very large responsibilities. My only question was who decides and when in the process. I don't know that I have a preference. No, we may have a preference at the time then either. But honestly, it would probably be the landowner deciding and working with the city on how it's done. OK, there's also, we talk about a comprehensive storm water system for the development. But other places use the terms such as may. The city may be part of that storm water system. Something I can't, somebody else talks about may, or has the option, and I'm trying to understand how we have a comprehensive plan for the whole property when some people may or may not be part of that. When we initially designed this, when we initially worked with staff on this, the concept is that the city properties we're going to have their own stormwater system. What we've done is we've worked together to say this really needs to be a comprehensive system. So we're going to be providing the city stormwater. That's an advantage where everyone gives you. That's a- Well I think the word may may as you I think I Probably clarified that at a different location, but I'll fix that okay And there's a few different places of different items who have it but initially the reason why it's there is because that's what that was the intent at Yeah, so it's a lot of it just this clarification needed and Then let's see see, so you confirmed that Williams is a county road. Yes, yes. Okay. That's why there's already been granted. Just a question and maybe this is for city manager. If we, you know, I understand wanting to increase the value of the land prior to having it, you know, appraised. But doesn't the more valuable the land for the city? Doesn't that also increase the amount of impact fee credits? Yes. I can answer that question. I mean, if the land is more valuable, you pay more impact fee credits. So that was that what you're talking about? No. We give you impact fee credits for certain things. I thought that the city land was being- Yes, okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So make it central. Pretty fuller, I'm like, pretty sure. Is that better? Yeah. So depending upon at which stage the city would choose to take that property. If you took, if you were to take the property as it sits there today, we'd have it appraised and it would have a value. If instead you said I want to wait until that property is connected to the regional stormwater system, it would have a different value. but the choice on when you'd like that property to be conveyed, that would be at the city, city's choice. And then whatever the appraisal would be done, would determine the value which wouldn't be paid in cash, there would be impact fee credits for the value aid. But the concept we're trying to get, I don't know if we've done a good job with it, but the concept we're trying to get was, the city gets to choose at which stage the property gets appraised and conveyed. Yeah, so it's a seesaw. Okay, all right. Let's see, oh, just for quick clarification. Page 75B. Attractions. And I understand you're talking about how traffic planning is discerning. And it talks about attractions, which I understand, but it only lists retail and recreation. It doesn't list jobs. And I would assume that many jobs, even in Deering Park, would take that. And. Obviously we can add that something, they're gonna be looking at. In fact, we have our traffic. Can you hear it? Can you hear it? Oh good, hi. That's so, yeah, our traffic engineer is here as well. But yes, that's exactly correct. All those things can be attractors, the idea is to avoid increase in the amount of traffic on 44 as much as possible. Right, so it's just missing a word. That's all. Yeah, which is fine. I think that's the biggies. For anybody else who's actually reading the contract, I am thrilled that you are determined not to allow any runoff to go into Venetian Bay or the Utilities Commission. I believe that statement in various iterations is at least eight times in three pages. So maybe we could just put that puppy up front and just have you know. I actually, I actually clarified, tried to create the exact same statement every single time. Oh, it varies. Right, it does vary still. So we're trying to get it to the same thing. Right, let's go and say the same thing. And again, the reason I can do it there is because we have nothing going over there now. Now the areas that, like I say, the areas that have the culverts under the interstate, you have to maintain some water going through there to maintain that wetland area or to the west, perhaps, or to the south. But those areas, there are no wetlands to preserve. Well no, we have just that one statement, I think, is in eight times. Thank you. So, why don't we move on for right now? Thanks. Sure. You got all yours. If I could, Mr. Mayor, just a couple of clarifying comments pertaining to the performance bond, I would fully expect that we'd be getting letters of credit for any outstanding improvements given the financial backing of the property owners here. It's much less costly, the letters of credit are written such that they're irrevocable and I would fully expect that's what we would be working with and I'm completely comfortable with doing with doing that. Which is fair. I don't have a preference. It just didn't stipulate who made that decision and when that situation would I decision would be made. We're going to work with our partners to decide what's best, but we have the capability. It's a waste thing. Very good. And then with respect to the impact fee question, you know I think as these plans come together and they come together with other potential developments, we, you, need to be planning for the future in terms of the recreation needs of the population and where is the best location for our potential recreation center. It could well be at this location and during the park. It could be somewhere else. I don't know the answer to those questions yet, but obviously the sooner we make the decision financially would be better for the city to do that. So we'll be weighing all those options. Thank you. Yes ma'am. Thank you Mr. Manager. Appreciate that. Commissioner McGurk. Thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate another one of these workshops. I have a lot of questions and a lot of clarifications. So bear with me. I might bounce around a little bit here. We've been listening to questions and listening a lot for the last two years. I'm OK, Jason. Good. Oh, great. So dealing with the water issue, we have, and I can't remember off the top of my head, the overall acreage that has been discussed and this is somewhere around 71,000 acres, right? That the Deering Park Conservation areas that were presently in conservation easements are 71 square miles, are that we're talking about? Yes, thank you. You intend to build, and I'm looking at the holistic part of this, you're going to have normal storm water ponds and what I've been told is I understand that you have a very large conservation area. And this water is going to flow, you're going to direct the water into this very large conservation area as part of a storm water plant. Is that correct? That's the plan is that we're going to have a stormwater system that's developed and designed for basically unprecedented storms for hurricanes. So the plan is that you will have your regular system. You'll have your lake systems or anything else. That'll function probably where you have small amounts of water that if there's runoff, the runoff runs where it's supposed to run before. But during hurricanes, during this massive sheet of water that comes down so fast, we've got to find a way. And our engineers are working on this now of taking that water and putting it somewhere else. You can't allow it to go into normal runoffs. So that's what I'm asking about. And that water, for lack of a better terminology, I'm not an engineer. So you're going to have your normal retention areas. And then once those get overloaded in burden, let's say the pop off, is going to go into these large conservation areas. We expect that's what's going to happen. What we have not yet done is the detailed engineering that shows us exactly where it's going to go, how it's going to get there, and where it's going to go. So what we did was we tried to put into the document the absolute commitment that before we build anything, we've got to get that designed and approved. Perfect. You just went into my next, my follow-up question. No, that's great, which is so far I'm right, at least with the concept of what's absolutely. Yes. When you say that these water studies are going to be done, is this what you're talking about? So right now, can't tell me exactly what this is because there's water studies going on? We have ideas as to what's going on because we taught a lot of engineers, we taught to Foley Palmer, we taught a lot of people who have ideas. Robbie's told us all this thing, but as far as the studies, we haven't conducted a major study yet because we don't know what we're conducting a study of four. We don't know what we're building for or designing for. But we're going to be working with the staff because you already know. OK, hold on. Hold on, hold on. Let me bear with me here. I'm the layperson here. So you're trying to get approved conceptually something. And once you get an idea of what what you can build then you're gonna know what you need to plan around for stormwater Is that accurate? That's correct. Okay. Do we know what? Generally the capacity is of that 71 Miles or square miles 71 square miles 71 miles Seven one square. Do we have any idea of what that capacity holds right now? Not yet. OK. OK. So the plan is to get a PUD and DA approved, then do the studies. Is that the expectation or the hope on your part? Yes. And maybe it would be helpful to kind of explain a project that we glen mentioned it earlier. So at Babcock Ranch, we had a 12,000 acre swamp that we were able to work with. But we did not do the design and engineering for developing the stormwater system until after the PUD was approved. And what we found, and I expect we will find the same thing, but I don't know this yet because it hasn't been designed, was that a 12,000 acre swamp holds a whole lot of water. That's a technical term, but it holds a whole lot of water. The engineers will be able to tell us what it will hold. What we know is here, we've got 20,000 acres of swamps to the south of us and more. So intuitively, we believe there's plenty of capacity. But until we actually have the engineers do the model and do the study and grab the topo, we won't know that. From our perspective, we don't want to present for permit a project until we know that answer. So how do we know if it's not in the document, the MDAP you did, what you have to build to? Where does that, once you've done those water studies, and you meet with staff, when does that become a written document of what you have to do based on what the water studies indicated? Oh, and requirements are in there. It's just that we don't have that. Right, the output results are simple. We've got to hold our stormwater. We're designing to the 150% requirement that the city has. We're also adding some additional restrictions, which are the any offsite discharge. One cannot go into the VDN Bay community. Two cannot go into the utility commission property. And if it's going into another area, it has to be less than what's going there now. So those are kind of their requirements that we've got to design to. Then we've got the St. John's Riverwater Management District requirements, have very detailed pre-post engineering analysis and all this is still has to be done with the engineering report. What we've added to the PUD is that beyond just going and getting those, we're going to actually submit them to the city. So the city will then review and that will be part of the approval process before we can build anything Okay, I wrote I'm getting okay. I appreciate it so far So you're gonna build to the the 150% capacity, right? That's required and That's gonna include putting part at 150% capacity is going to be held in normal storm water ponds or be included in what you're going to discharge into the conservation areas. But that would be, 150% would be in the stormwater ponds that are built as part of the project. The top off is that additional 12 inches of rain in 24 hours that's far beyond the 150%. OK, and that water study is going to obviously tell you, I mean, part of that water goes north, but at some point it stops going north and it starts going south and it goes in different directions. You've got a number of different ways of water goes just when you start getting south of there. Right. Right. Today the water goes in all different directions and so step number one is the engineers and surveyors to confirm exactly where the water is going today before we do anything. And we also have a, it's fortuitous in that the city is in the middle of a very extensive regional study and we'll have the ability to work with that data and the engineers that are working on that study so that we make sure that our study is consistent with their study and if it turns out that Pica can out that one set of data says A and one set of data says B before we go forward we're going to try to get everybody together to see if we can confirm which data is right. Okay. So approximately if you can tell me how many of these conservation acres are in New Sumerna Beach. To date, we haven't put anything in New Sumerna Beach into conservation yet. Okay. So I had the opportunity to take a ride with Mr. Lee. I appreciate that and highly recommend anyone doing that trip. The generosity you all have done is fantastic on taking us through that whole area. I'm very impressed. While I was out there, I had a map. I took a picture of it on the phone. I don't have a paper copy. I'd like to get a hold of it. If I understood correctly, and it showed the future development from 44 all the way down to 442 in just south of 442, most of the development is going to be on the eastern side of the property, more or less along I 9595. And there was vast amounts of land in green. And my understanding was everything in green is going to be conservation. So and if that's the case, and if I understand that correctly, that is fantastic. That is, I was very impressed by that. We touched I Glenn earlier touched on the issue of conservation and what it and how it goes into how it's protected in conservation. We did a bond here in New Samarna, voter approved and we put that one of the things we did with that land so people so it could never be taken out of conservation and develop was put it into the Florida land trust. Go ahead I think you used the auto bond St. John's and made the county in New Samaritan. My concern is this I don't want a political entity determining that. My concern is St. John's, those board members get removed and fired from boards if the governor doesn't like what they do. City Commission's County Commission's County Council, I'd like some more, I didn't see it in there in the MUD right now, but how's that going to be determined when? Is that going to be determined on who's holding that in conservation? I can't have been a bit of a bit of a work with you guys, but I mean, we've looked at the number of these. I'm sorry. So we have looked at that question. I mean, again, one of the reasons why we don't give land to the state is because the state has other ideas as to what conservation lands could be. And so what we've done is we've created these layers of conservation easement to make sure that is preserved. Now, honestly, if you give it to St. John's and something else, it doesn't really matter. You know, you'll have the extra requirements. So for our case, Audubon has been great. Ernie, you have another group that is good at this, right? This is actually an issue that's being faced all over the state right now. So for the easements that we have placed in Volusia County and Brevard County, those are in favor of each of the counties in favor of the St. John's River Water Management District and in favor of Audubon of Florida. So there's three easement holders. So when is that going to be decided and what document is that going in? Well, what we put here was that it had to be two or more. And what we would propose is as we come in, after we've done the stormwater study and we know which properties are going to go into conservation easement, we would suggest the holders of that easement. Now, one will certainly be St. John's River Water Management District. One could be the City of New Sumerna Beach. One could be Audubon. I will tell you in my home county of Palm Beach County, for now, they're in the process of adding a statewide land trust called Conservation Florida to their county owned conservation lands. And so that could be an option. There are a number of statewide land trusts. I know the Conservation Florida folks pretty well. They've done some good work in Fulusha County, but I would suggest we would be at that stage when we get into the permitting process. I don't want to say today it's going to go to a certain group and find out that two years from now that groups no longer active. I understand, but what I want to make sure is that doesn't get lost in the shuffle because listen, listen, let me just stay my concern and we can move on, and we can address it. When I'm a, what is not gonna be in this PUD or NDA, or just implied in the PUD or NDA, and we get into the details, I think, by some way I've mentioned the details. I wanna make sure that doesn't get missed, and I'm not happy if we're going to put this in the City Commission, the County Council, or St. John's. AutoBond sounds good. I know a little bit about them not a lot but I want to make sure if these lanes are going to be put in conservation. I want to make sure they're going to be in conservation and perpetuity forever. I don't want someone coming back 30 years from now with an, and I can imagine this area 30, 40 years from now. It's gonna be tremendously overcrowded. South Florida, even up around Jupiter, there's the housing is crazy, there's the demand for more building and the the bottom line is, you're either gonna break to that pressure or you're not. So, just one of my concerns is the detail on that, because that's something that can easily get lost in a big picture of this. The thing I put in the agreement is there'll be multiple beneficiaries. I didn't say who, but I did say if the city wants to be one of them, they can be one of them. But there'll be multiple beneficiaries, not just one. I would like to see non-political entities. That's up to you guys. And we're very political here. Up to you guys. If you choose to. If you choose to accept, that's great. If you choose not to, that this great too will mind other people. All right. And the rules are acceptable to you. Traffic State Road 44. You know, the problem here is it's always about, well, look at this specific development. Doesn't matter if it's you guys right now, doesn't matter if it was Ocean's Gate, Phoenician Bay, all the different developments that have been built. You put them together and we have this dis traffic problem. I look at your traffic plan and it has inter-connectivity in an oceans gate and your project, but it doesn't deal with state road 44. I understand what you're saying. You don't want to have to come out of your community, daring park to go into Oceans Gate. But that's not really the problem that I'm talking about. That's a very small area about coming in and out. And the interconnectivity of these developments is fantastic. That's great. But that doesn't deal with from traffic from this development development or Venetian Bay, all the way east to Mission Road, or even further. And the idea of love, work, play, and the same neighborhood, that's great. But we all know everybody wants to get out and they live in New Smirno Beach. You're going to come to the beach. They're going to come downtown. They're going to come to Canal Street, they're going to come to Flagler Avenue. So how do we really deal with the traffic issue that's coming on State Road for, it's here a little bit, and I know enough that F-DOT, who it's a State Road, doesn't really think that there's a big traffic problem. There is, but not from their perspective. But how and when do we deal with this issue about state road 44 being overcrowding? Because at 3.30 in the afternoon, heading east on 44, the turnway to go north on Sugar Mill Road is backed all the way up into state the Row 44. If your preaching is required, the bottom line is I recognize the fact that on nice sunny days, for whatever reason, we have this traffic backed all the way up. I personally believe part of it is because of Mission Road because the traffic signals are not calculated correctly, there's not enough turn lane there or whatever. We will be required after this is done to do a regional study to determine the impacts to 44, because there logically are going to be some impacts to 44. We can't mitigate for all of them. And how we can alleviate some of those impacts. So that's one of the things we'll be doing. And then of course, as this grows, we do additional traffic analysis that will determine what other improvements we will be required to dip to May. So, yes, I agree with you. But what you just said is what every developer says about any one of their projects. And we all know that we hear the, we hear the every day whether it's me or anybody in this room drives down state road 44. I don't understand how we keep getting all this development. There's supposed to be traffic impact fees. And yet the road doesn't get improved. The road's not winding, we're in this mess. Now hold on a second. I understand that there's a, the complexity of funding for transportation is very complicated. And we can't fix that in this room here tonight. But what I want to hold your feet to the fire on is, how exactly know what the problem is we've identified the problem. How do we, the commission in the city, work together with the developers to try to solve this problem going forward? So, and you don't need to respond. I understand there's no answer to that right now. Not yet. But what I'm trying to communicate is we need to work on a solution to that problem that the state is basically stuck their foot in the spokes of this wheel and they're the ones driving this machine messing up the community. You're absolutely right. you have to, like I said, you have to include the state in those negotiations and how to solve the problem. If you recall, we did that at Glyncope. We actually worked together with the state and with the city and with the developer, in that case, to get additional lanes, to get additional turn lanes, to get a traffic signal, to help solve some of those problems. And I think it has. That's not the issue right now. I think the issue right now is Mission Road and beaches. But we'll deal with that as we deal with the city, the state. The state needs to understand this will be important as we develop this property. And Mission Road, I mean, in Williamsville, Illinois, that's a major road. So we'll all work together on that. When will Williamson go from 44 to Edgewater? All right, so the way it is right now and our negotiations with the county, we have given the county the right of way. We have aligned it, given the county the of right away at the same time if you recall that you see and Ardizia Previously shell point gave the right of way from Pioneer trail of 44 so now we have the potential for an entire connected system The last time we had a half-cent sales tax that was supposed to build that segment it did not pass So now we've got to figure out alternative ways of getting that built. We are building one segment of it in edge water as part of phase two of phase one. Phase one, as part of phase one, we're building one segment of Williamson. The goal would be to get those segments, and we required them to turn the agreement to the county as we only can build segments at a time to actually connect to other road systems. So that's part of it. Our real goal though, because this is a major economic benefit for the city, if we're able to get this business park up and running and get businesses and investment in this area, is we believe that there's a potential for economic development grants to help us build Williams and Road because especially since it's shovel ready so aren't isn't Williams and Rhodes supposed to be developer paid for? No new roads are not supposed to be developer but the roads within the other roads are going to be developed to pay for. This is a thoroughfare. This is a thoroughfare that's been part of the county compensa plan for 20 years. Well, here's why I'm asking. OK. Edgewater does a lot of their shopping in New Samaritan. Most of them come from Mission Road. So for Mission Road, all the way out to Walmart, they're driving 44. Williamson Road going down to Edgewater would give the people in Edgewater an alternative route other than getting backed up. So the sooner that's built, that's tangible changes to state road 44 to try to elite. It's not gonna, it's not gonna alleviate, but by the time it gets built, we're gonna have a lot more traffic coming in on 44 from all over the place, but at least it will help that much. But Jason, you are absolutely right. And that's the key to this, to get William some bill of art built as quickly as possible because that is a major requirement right now. There are no other north-south roads because that's what you're dealing with. So we've got to find some way of doing that. We are building one segment of it and we're getting impact fee credits for it, for building that one segment. The goal as we start continuing to market this, as other businesses may want to do it, the state may want to help us with this, we're going to be doing everything we can to get Williamson Boulevard built. So how do we make that tangible? How do we, and it's a tough question that I'm asking you on the fly tonight. But these are the kinds of things that are important when we continue to approve new developments. Roads are always lacking. Look at what LPGA is going through. Everything was approved and now they're trying to find emergency funds to stop the gridlock. But let me get into my next set of questions. OK. As you know, I have used Venetian Bay and Coastal Woods as an example for years about the front yard setbacks and the amount of parking for each home, single family home. The roads were not designed for parking. And the way the parking was designed on a 10 or 15 or 20 foot front yard setback was two cars in the garage and two cars on the pad. But we all know most people build their garage with stuff and do not park in it. hopefully say some people do that very very few people I'm always amazed that the people who have that much organized haven't have a garage that organized they can put a car actually But what happens but you know what happens if floods out into the street the The street wasn't wide enough and you zigzag down the street. I don't want to approve this development with the same prompt. I've spent a decade trying to deal with this issue. And I don't want to approve another development. But as I look through the PUD and I highlight the setbacks, we got cottages, front yard setback, 15 feet, multifamily, 25 feet, town homes, 20 feet, residential single family, detached dwellings, 20 feet. I need to have a question to ask. I want to read something. Front 20 feet. However, front setback may be reduced to 10 feet. If unit is alley loaded without garage access and without garage access to front street, what does that actually mean? So so we're going from I know 20 feet to 10 feet so as as the community is designed and I'd mentioned the community I live in abacos so we have a mixture of what I would call front loaded homes and Allie loaded homes what that means is like my house house I live on an alley and a front. So in front of my house there's a very short setback to my front porch. So road, trees, sidewalk, front porch, house. In front of my house there's on street parking, Parallel parking on the street. My garage is in the back. I get to the garage by driving down the alley to go in the garage. So we anticipate that it'll be a mix of front loaded where I've got my garage and alley loaded so that in those circumstances where I've got an alley loaded garage, the owner of the house is going to park in the alley and the garage. The guest will park in the front. In that circumstance the setback becomes shorter so that you can push that front porch up to the sidewalk. And what that does from a community perspective. I understand. People are on the porch. So are the streets, are they able, is there going to be, the streets going to accommodate parking? On the alley loaded houses, the streets will accommodate parking in parking spaces. Because one of the things we don't want, we don't want people pulling in this way. We want people parking in the yard. And so what we've done is if it's a alley loaded, we anticipate there will be parking and trees in front of the house. So they'll be on street designated. And that would come in when we come in with a subdivision plan for a particular neighborhood. We would show where all the parking is going to be in the neighborhood. When we got into that point yet, if I have a home that's got the garage in front, so I drive in the garage, those setbacks will be greater so that I've got room to put my cars in the driveway and in the garage. But we're going to have single family homes with roughly 20 foot front yard setbacks. And how are the way we're going to calculate parking? I believe it's going to still create the same problem where if it's two in the garage and two on the pad, and then what are you going do with a 20 foot setback? How are you gonna accommodate the multiple cars? Four cars, five cars, you have mom, dad, the kids, the kids have friends coming over. So, and all you need to do is go into coastal woods at any time of the day and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. So my question is, and this is something I will want answered before I vote on this, how are we going to deal with that parking? Because I don't, we've made that mistake too many times to do it again. If this community even remotely resembles coastal woods, we should all be fired. So, let me see what else that we can do. I'll give you just my experience living in Palm Beach Gardens in Jupiter. We don't have that problem in the communities that we've developed. And so what I need to do is go back and see, okay, I know what the outcome is. How did we get there in terms of the PUD? Right. I don't know the answer to that, but I will go look at that. Well, thank you. I appreciate your time. I'm done with my questions. Thank you, Mayor. You bet. much just from a gerk for your 30 minutes of questions. I'm counting. There are good. Devils in the details. Mr. Ashley, better up. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'm going to back away from the details and I want to give you my experiences of the last couple of months and I want everybody in this room to reflect on the experiences that I've had. And basically my personal transformation has gone from not believing a word Glenn says, thinking Ernie is kind of a con artist to an absolute true believer. And I want to tell you how I got to that position from where I started. So the first thing I did was Glender arranged it, Robbie Leoni, and a couple of associates, tour during Park. And it was a wonderful three hour tour. We saw land that was being cleared. We saw pastures that was being maintained. We saw tree farms that were being maintained. And that tour, we must have covered 50 miles within Deering Park. And it took about three hours. And we saw some beautiful spots, beautiful spots that were going to be maintained. We saw if we saw spots that were going to be developed and that was a wonderful, wonderful tour. Give me a great experience of that part of the park. The next thing I did was out of the blue friend who is now a friend contacted me and says, hey, I can take you on a tour of the South Village, which is north of During Park, north and west of During Park. So we took a tour of the South Village, which is to me, the same problem that we're talking about in During Park exists in South Village, which is what is it going to look like, how we going to maintain it, and will it be beautiful? We need it to be beautiful. So that was an enlightening experience. The same thing happening in South Village that I saw happening during Park Laelland being cleared, but a lot of mindful land not being clear either. Next I had the opportunity to go South and I visited Abacoa and Alton with Ernie Cox as my tour guide. And that put it all together. When you see what has happened in Albuquerque, all these questions clear up because they have done a job that is almost hard to believe. It would be like the equivalent of the great pyramid in Egypt. I mean, it's a monumental job that they have done down there. And I believe it has more homes than during park, right, Ernie? I mean, the abacoa is 6,000 homes and about 3.2 million square feet of non-residential. And then Alton, which was across the street, will have about 2,000 homes and that one also has almost three million. So it's huge. It's huge. Yes. And Jason, your concern is about setbacks. All that stuff becomes crystal clear when you cruise that neighborhood. It becomes a varying assortment of neighborhoods that are pleasing when you're inside them and pleasing as they're adjacent each other. And one short setback on one street fits and one major longer setback on another street fits. It's just a beautiful combination of creative architecture and creative neighborhood layouts. There are mues all over the place. There are pocket parks all over the place. A pocket park could be a park, maybe as half as big as this room, that is a combination of beautiful lawn, beautiful landscaping, and a little playground for kids. And you can place those all over neighborhoods, and they've done that in Abacoa. There's dog walking parks. There's dog parks, excuse me. There's other playgrounds. There's pickleball courts. There's just, there's many downtowns. And all of it is within walking distance. For example, there's a couple of schools inside those neighborhoods. And adjacent from the schools is not affordable housing, but a tangible housing. And then as you get out on the outskirts you get single family homes that are absolutely gorgeous. But honestly when you go from a single family home street to a duplex street you can hardly tell the difference. They're just absolutely beautiful. When you get toward a downtown area where it's high density, three stories high, all you see is just beautiful landscaping and the buildings are gorgeous. And that took about an hour and a half to tour with Ernie. And when that experience was over, it's kind of like, oh, I get it. I get it now. I really, really understand what they're trying to do here. Now, I would also like to give you some homework because this gave me perspective too. There's a book that I would encourage everyone to read. It's called The Land Remembered by Smith. By I think it's Patrick D. Smith. If you read that book, you kind of get the feel of Florida. You get the feel of what happened to a fictional family in Florida, but all those events that happened to this family are based on true events. And so you kind of get an idea of if a family has a piece of land for 100 years, how they care for it. And that book really, I read it three or four years ago, and I first got here. And it really, really stuck with me. The images in that book are extremely clear, lucid, and easy to remember. So I come across Ernie and I go to his website and his website is, the name of his company is FamilyLandsRemember.biz. And I thought, that's amazing. So then I read his philosophy and vision and it is exactly what a loving resident of Florida would want Florida to be as it's developed. It isn't some outside guy from Canada, from Turkey, from some other country, not caring about what Florida looks like. These guys really care. And now if I was just reading this and I didn't go to Abokoa, I would think, yeah, yeah, well that sounds good. But now that I've visited Abokoa and Alden, let me tell you something, I would highly recommend everybody going down there to take a look at what that's all about. It is fabulous. So I support this project 100% I support earning 100% Glenn 100% and because I think and I trust them now the vision that they see and that they created in Nabokoa we will have in our backyard in Düring Park and and that's why I want to leave it but remember do your homework. Mr. Ashley, thank you very much. Order. Order, please. Okay, thank you very much. That was only seven minutes, so you've retained some more time. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. So, I'm a crawl walk run guy there for the dynamic duo batten these back. Jason kind of drained the connectivity issues that many in this town, you can't see the heads nodding behind you, but I can. So when it comes to what is already loading our main thoroughfares, doesn't feel good to say we'll get to it when we get to it. And so I didn't like that. And so I know you don't mean what it sounded like, but we're going to need to have this, your company's got, presence, it's got resources and what have you. I would like us to get the state's attention about what we can do on 44 before we put the very next thing in out there, because it is not good today. And I have no doubt that this community that your planning is going to be successful, but the second order affects of what's already happening to 44. Not your fault, but you know, you got to dance with Hu Brunga. That's what we have. And if you want to play ball in our neighborhood, you're going to have to help us improve the neighborhood. Not just your place, because it's going to be great. But all the stuff that all the other neighbors and all the other people around here are living with, we can't degrade their quality of life and have just the odds out there be awesome. It's got to be an improvement for everybody. So you don't need to respond to that, but know that I'm watching. I did want to, so as you can imagine, and there's a lot of moving parts to both the Innovation Center in New Smirno Beach and in Edgewater. What I can share with you is that we are working very, very closely with the Florida Department of Transportation on transportation issues. The pieces that I know we have been able to work through are the seven mile Sun Trail bicycle network where we're working through the grant agreement with them now on the design. And then I know that DOT as part of the resurfacing project on State Road 44 is gonna extend the bicycle trail on the north side of the road to connect it all the way up to connect with the trail just to the west of Race track. That's one that I know. The second thing that we're working on doesn't doesn't address 44 but we're working closely with the City of Edgewater and the Ford Department's Transportation to address the flooding issue that currently exists at State Route 442. And to extend the bicycle lane underneath 442 and Representative Tramont and Senator Lee could have actually submitted an appropriations request to assist with four laneing that segment. as you know, if you go down to that exit, west of the interstate, it's four lanes, and east of the interstate, it's four lanes, and under the interstate, it's two. I can't speak for DOT, but what I found is that their leadership and their staff have been really good to work with, and so the commitment that we can make is that we will take that exact same attention and work closely with the city and the TPO and DOT to see how do we address these even though they're not issues that we caused. And thankfully I don't want to to overstate this, but our folks have been here 100 years, and they've directed us not only to create during park, but what can we do to help the rest of the community with existing issues because they see it as part of being a community. So Mr. Mayor, I can commit to you that we will work very, very closely with the city and the city staff to try to figure out a solution. I don't have a solution today. I want to add something to that. So when I talked about the idea that we're required to do a sub regional study, we will do that. And then we'll get on the TPO as to what's required because right now we're not. We don't have the zoning for this. This doesn't exist. When we have the zoning, we will do the sub regional study based on this zoning and potentially. And then we'll be able to work with the state and the county and everyone else. If I gave the impression, we'll just get to it and we get to it. No. We know it's a major issue. We've always noticed a major issue. We just can't do it until after the zoning is done. I understand. I appreciate the technical aspects of that and I really appreciate what you said. I was a consultant for a number of years. Consultants and lawyers use two words, two phrases. It depends, and upfront and early. And so I would prefer upfront and early on this one, as opposed, OK, thank you. Can you talk to us? Tell us some more about your resiliency attributes and your self-sustained attributes. You mentioned a bunch of them tonight, but those two terms are near and dear to many in this room's heart about how you're not going to have second order effects that damage the rest of the neighborhoods in our town. And also the expenditure that the city would incur in times of, following times of storm. So, say something that would inspire on the plans that you've made and you've talked to me previously about your resiliency efforts and your self-sustaining efforts. Well, resiliency and self-sustaining is a key to this whole thing. I mean, again, this the first one will be doing something like this, except for Babcock Ranch. Babcock Ranch designed their project in such a way where they dealt with resiliency. So when Hurricane Ian flooded me, when Hurricane Ian came over them and literally stayed a category four for what four or five hours over them Over that they didn't have a single road flooded. They didn't have a single House flooded. They didn't lose power. They didn't lose internet Because they had basically hardened their infrastructure to deal with this and prepare for this That's what we're planning. That's what's required in this PUD. The stormwater part of this, again, is the reason Babcock Ranch was able to do with this massive wall of water is because they had some place to put it. We have some place to put it. Very few people have the ability to do this sort of thing that we're doing. And of course, the cost of basically redirecting these basins is not easy because you've got basically creating gravity. Creating gravity to make this go to where you want it to go when you have this much water coming in. So that's why this is going to take a while and cost a lot of money to get to that point. But that's what this is designed for. This will be the first project that is designed as a resilient project to deal with the new reality. Thank you. So I appreciate that. I'm going to stick on water for just a second. There are many in the room that are better water experts than I, and that's why they're in the room because I ask them to come. My simple brain says the water moves here north and east and out through Consonal it and out to the ocean. Help me again. Water that moves that way, I get it. It's a flow issue, right? And so if you're talking about moving water west and south, is it that area, it's the Earth's ability in that part to perk and to allow it to seep into the Earth. It doesn't flow to other places because there are no other places out there to go. It just has to either evaporate or go into the ground. So you've got one today where everything's moving north and east and we're over taxing that. basins are overtax now with the ability for our current stormwater to receive that I was delighted when you said oh yeah we've got an idea we're gonna move it east and and south or west and south but I'm still a disbeliever about the ability of that property to accept and receive that amount of water I heard your big we got big these are big plonds, big pools, big acres, big swamps, I got that, but help me a little more with that. I'm, help me with my disbelief. So let me make it the simplest way is to think about a cypress swamp. So you can go out into a cypress swamp, maybe today, and it's dry. But if you look at that cypress tree, you might see water marks that are 4 feet tall. Cypress swamp has an incredible ability to hold a lot of water. And the trees are just amazing because they can live with no water and they can live with four feet of water. So as you spend time and going down through the property, we're not talking about the day-to-day stormwater system. The day-to-day stormwater system, the property will function and it won't have an impact and it won't discharge and everything will be fine. And when it's dry, everybody's, it doesn't matter when the water flows off because it's dry. But in that big event, our direction to the engineers, once we get into designing this, is once we get to that big event, when everything is full, send that water into the swamp and fill up the swamp. Let the swamp fill up. And so if you look at the big map, the map that you saw with the green of the 46,000 acres has been placed in conservation, there's two major swamp systems that run down through there. They're all connected. Now, when it's dry, there's no flow. When it's a little wet, there's really no flow. But when there's a whole lot of water, that water slowly makes its way down all the way past Maytown Road and into the St. John's River. And if you look back at some of the historical areas, before we built 95, before we built 44, before we built all the roads that we built, some of this water went north and spruce creek and out and some of this water made its way south and a lot of this water stayed in the swamp. So I don't want to profess that we've done this yet because we have not. I'm just going to be up to Mark Dahlston and his team and the others to get this right, but intuitively, if we've got 46,000 acres, a big chunk of which is Cyprus swamps that are connected, we're going to be able to send those big rain events into the swamp. Thank you. I appreciate that. That helps. And I have great faith in Mr. Dowsden, his engineering skills. Just to scope this for the crowd. How long is it going to take? Just a decade of work to build this? We're I think we're at least two two years of engineering and analysis. And then the build out of this project is probably a decade after that. Thank you. Infrastructure increases in cost, probably maybe this, what have learned from the city manager and the city attorney is that impact fees will pay for construction issues that the city might be. And so we're gonna to give, we give, we're going to credits for all the land that you're going to give, which means that there's some impact fee impacts up front that the city will have to pay for. And then there's the infrastructure that goes along with that at InfoNitle for forever. How do we plan for that? Maybe it's the maybe stepping you and Jeff will answer it, maybe the city manager will answer it, but I get that you can't because that's not what the law says. I got it loud and clear. But I worry that our little town may not be planning and may not be ready. And does that mean taxes go up for everybody? How do we abate that big lump that's up front? Because we gave you all this credit, you gave us all that you gave the land and traded for impact fees and now we're still at net zero. We got land, but we got no money. I got to tell you, the only thing you're giving impact for your credits for a recreation and police, that's it. Okay. So you will still be, and again, once you, we're not using that impact for your credits until we start building, obviously. In fact, so I'm not worried about that. They'll just be sitting there in the bank. if you take it before we actually build. But the bottom line is those other impact fees will continue to be paid to you regularly as we build out. And the taxes that we're creating will continue to pay. And don't forget, the real reason here that we're here is because if we do this where our non-resensual tax base is the 6 million square feet, that's $2.7 billion of increased valuation, $2.7 billion of increased valuation. That's your tax base that doesn't get hit by homestead, doesn't get hit by exemptions. It's a pure tax base that continues to rise. So that's the goal of creating this. Now as far as your maintenance cost, you don't have any maintenance costs for stormwater or for landscaping. You'll only have road repair, not for Williams and because Williams is the county road. But for any of the side roads that are public, you'll have road repair issues. And then for the sports complex itself you whatever you decide to put in there you will have to maintain Okay, thank you so speaking of the tax base my favorite math professors in the room and she was questioning their math I have a I have a copy of an exchange between you and our Director of finance Mr. Duryury. Can you go over that again one more time about the differential between what is today and what you claim to be for the future the differences between 83% on the residential and a number of 63, which you promote. Yeah, I mean, the estimates are that build out of the non-resonial section, the value of that build out will be approximately $2.7 billion. Right now that's six million square feet, that's based on all the calculations we had on what it cost to build, et cetera. That's right now of course, but it cost to build. The, and so that's what we were looking at as far as the potential increase in value. Your finance director took the numbers as to the potential value at build out of non-residential and the potential value at build out of the residential sections that we're also doing. And she did the calculations and her calculations were that your residential tax base, the percentage of taxes that the residents pay, that the homes pay, right now is 83%. When this is done, as Ernie said, hopefully in 10 years or so, when this is done, that tax base will be decreased, residential tax base will be decreased by 20%, the only 63% of your taxes will come from residential, because this right now, you don't have any real non-residential taxes, tax base. So all of your taxes continue to increase because you're residents on your residents. This is the attempt to try and prevent that from happening in the future. Yeah, and then we get 10% of the commercial base now and your estimate says that we would get 32%. Correct. Well, that's not my estimate. I just gave the numbers as far as evaluations. That's your finance records estimates. Very good. Thank you, sir. I want to hear some comments about not repeating the Venetian Bay Engineering disaster of stormwater remediation. Not putting any blame toward any of the organizations out there, or any of the builders or anything, but the fact is today, it's not what it needs to be. And it didn't start out like that. 30 years ago, it was County property, and this city wasn't involved. And then we got it. And now it's a major problem. Help me with your eyes to the future about how we make sure that is not a repeat scenario here. I'm a big believer. Most lawyers are of learning from the mistakes of the past. That's how you solve problems by figuring out what happened in the past. So in this case, in Venetian Bay, you had a number of mistakes. And in fact, the residence coalition asked it the same thing. What would you do to correct the mistakes that were made in Venetian Bay? So one of the mistakes was when you did your initial stormwater management plan, there was apparently an issue as far as the heights of the utility of the Commission's property and wetlands and the heights of the stormwater that we've done. I don't know if it was a surveying error. I don't know what a building error, I don't know what it was. But it could have been resolved had there been as-built surveys done at the time and those as-built surveys had been reviewed by the city to make sure that it was built pursuant to the actual permitted areas. That wasn't done. So one of the things we required is we have to as-built surveys and they have to be provided to you and we have to pay for them and they have to be independently reviewed to make sure that it's done properly. And then the question of maintenance, it's clear that in Venetian Bay some of these areas weren't maintained. It's that simple. And I don't know why that was. I don't know if it was because of the ownership or the HOA or why. Don't cast blame. But the bottom line is they weren't maintained properly. And so how do we make sure that's done? A, we're going to create a very clear area of how they're going to be maintained. Who's going to pay for maintenance? B, we're going to also pay for an accounting, an audit. Every year, analysis, whether that system is functioning the way it's supposed to function. and that audit or that accounting or that analysis is then going to be presented to the city and the city is going to also review it to make sure it's done right. If we're taking care of everything, if it's being maintained properly, there's no problem. But you have to check it every once in a while time. We've been working on this for a long time. We've been working on this for a long time. We've been working on this for a long time. We've been working city now, as a full time person to go out and do the execution inspections while construction is in process and when construction is finished, to make sure that that is actually happening. So that's going on right now. We've hired that person over here about a year and that person goes around and make sure all that happens that's written down on those plans. So just have that in your head. That's goodness for one'sies and two'sies. Mr. Manager, what I'm worried about is this is a giant project. Jesse handles all of our capital director Kobe, Jesse Kobe handles all of our big capital improvement programs. Is this thing so big that it is worthy of its own project manager inside the city? Yes, you got all our departments that do a great job and the day-to-day load. This just seems like a tremendous load, which needs one belly button to go. That's the guy. And to walk this group through each of the departments so that we have one person that hears the same story all the way around your city staff and then one person that we and the citizens could look to to say this is your baby. It's years of work. It's a decade of work. So I don't know if it's appropriate. I don't know if it's the right move, but it would be a center of excellence like our our capital improvement department is a center of excellence for anything we buy. So just something for you to consider. Okay, so I'm sorry I took I took 17 minutes and that's really not good. I should have deferred to the city. Thank you both. Please be seated. Take the notes that you need to take and now we will open this to public participation. Please come forward. You'll have three minutes to ask your questions, to make your comments, and then please be seated again. And at the end of all these, Mr. Storage and Mr. Cox will come back up, questioned by question, and resolve with answers. Thank you for being here. Name and address for the record if you don't mind, please. Good evening. My name is Allison Coach, 1118, Marcel Street, Newsomernabeech District 3. What I was planning to say a lot has been covered. And I thank you for that. Our wonderful town of Newsomernabna Beach is fortunate to have such excellent leadership. Thank you for conducting this workshop and allowing me to comment. I love New Summarna Beach. I'm a native Floridian long-term resident of New Summarna Beach moved here when you could parallel park on US one. A lot of you may remember that and was involved when George Mussen or Mayor at the time, spearheaded widening state road 44 out to I-4. So yes, there have been a lot of changes and growth is inevitable. Following what Commissioner Ashley was speaking, I had the fortunate opportunity to ride the bus trip that the Chamber of Commerce took last week down to see Abacoa and Altan. I graduated high school in that area quite some time ago. When I graduated I 95 terminated there. There was nothing but pasture land. Now there are beautiful neighborhoods. What what? graduated, I-95 terminated there. There was nothing but pasture land. Now there are beautiful neighborhoods. What wasn't met mentioned by Commissioner Ashley was there's a state university, a biotechnical medical facility. There is a sports complex, which is home to two major league summer training camps. The parks are galore. It is so well built. The thing with Deering Park and the Deering family is they want to be as good of that but not even as good much better. Living in New Summert Beach, I love the artist community. The Deering Family also has a great affinity for the arts as well of course you know the environment. We're fortunate to have the Deering Family property owners proposing their Deering Park Innovation Center for us. The entire team at Deering wants to do it right. They have the best of the best planners, designers who all share the family's vision of creating a community of harmony with nature. The Deering family wants to continue their ancestors support of their community, their love the arts and the preservation of land so that it may be enjoyed for future generations. The Deering team wants to provide the highest quality, most beautifully landscape commercial village, which will be able to host archers, art galleries and other cultural events. I'd like to share in closing a recent quote from one of their top executives. And I quote, we are committed to shaping something that not only fits the fabric of Southeast Valuesha, but enhances it. I think I am at a time, I just wanna say, I am a private citizen, I toured of Farmington, Deering Property, last July. Private citizen, anyone who's interested, you are invited out there. So I speak from the heart. Appreciate your comments, thank you very much. It's Ford. Good evening, Stephanie Ford, President and CEO of the Southeast Fallujah Chamber of Commerce, 115 Canal Street in Newsom Renabeech. Thank you all for your service and your dedication to this project. The chamber is proud to advocate for a daring park innovation center, a transformative initiative poised to bring substantial benefits to our community. We firmly believe that it sets a gold standard for responsible development in Central Florida, prioritizing environmental preservation while fostering sustainable progress. Established in 1926, the SEV Chamber represents the vibrant brisket communities of New New Summaryn Abiche, Edgewater, and Oak Hill, with over 575 dedicated members, 17 committed board members, four active committees, and one unified voice. We champion the interest of businesses, residents, and community stakeholders alike. Our advocacy process starts with the R Committee, which includes city and county staff, board and chamber members. After their approval, the proposal moves to the executive committee and finally to the board of directors for a vote. This project directly aligns with not only the chamber's mission to create a vibrant quality of life for their residents and guests in Southeast Fallujah, but with the Southeast Fallujah Regional Strategic Plan adopted by the city of Newsomernabeech. It also aligns perfectly with the Newsomernab t e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e has a potential to attract businesses and create jobs in New Sumerna Beach and Southeast F allure. We mentioned earlier the reduction in the residential tax burden from 83% to 63% creating a healthier city tax base. The focus on developing job producing non-residential areas first is a smart move. It ensures that our community will have ample employment opportunities before residential areas are built. The economic development impacts will not only affect during park, but will have a profound effect on the existing business community. There's a saying arising tide lifts all boats, and that phrase actually was originated by the New England Council, a regional chamber of commerce, dating back to the 1950s. The idea behind the saying is that improvements in the general economy will benefit all participants much like a rising tide and all boats. We believe the same of the Dearing Park Innovation Center. In closing, we urge you to support the Innovation Center, a project that stands as a beacon of our shared values of community sustainability and responsible development. The Deering Park family's century-long dedication to our community is a testament to their unwavering commitment to doing what is right. Together, let's embrace this opportunity to create a brighter, more sustainable future for all and leave a lasting legacy for generations. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Appreciate your college. Good evening. I'm Jesse Wales, 824 Evergreen Street. I am a proud resident of Florida for the last 15 years. I've had the opportunity to live in Daytona Beach, Fort Orange, and now New Sumerna. And there's a reason why I wanted to settle down in New Sumerna was because of the small town feel. When I first moved here, there were signs all over saying limit the density. So seeing this large community planning on coming in is a little bit disheartening, but I understand I'm not naive that development does need to happen. Now, the US Fish and Wildlife Map shows that about 50% of the property is actually freshwater scrub wetland, excuse me, which we all know is the sponge of Florida. That's where the rainwater goes. It doesn't run east to west. It goes right down into the ground and back into our watershed. So as we are looking into planning this development, I really want you guys to consider low impact development and really look into that and urge the developers to make that a priority in their project. Sea level rise is not impacting our beaches as much as it's impacting our groundwater and our water table. So as we continue to see these hundred-year floods become 50-year floods, we need to be cognizant of that as we're building. So you guys mentioned the big field that the kids play in, perhaps we could build a rain garden instead of a large field. That could be one of the amenities as part of these neighborhoods instead of the community centers. Let's think about rain gardens. Let's think about ways that we could have sustainable storm infrastructures and focus on that first before we start focusing on building. Thank you. Thank you for comments, ma'am. Appreciate it. Bliss, welcome. Thank you. Good evening. My name is Blishthamerson, president of the Southeast Volusia Manufacturing and Technology Coalition, 635 Air Park Road, Edgewater, Florida. Southeast Volusia Manufacturing and Technology Coalition is all about good paying high value added jobs in aviation, aerospace technology, homeland security and the medical fields. The Deering Park Center is right here on the Space Coast and it is the answer to the city of Newsmer to Beaches' need for pad-ready sites for these type of companies. In the past, the commission has been disappointed when companies have located elsewhere, and due to the limited number of available pad-ready sites. Deering Park Innovation Center will provide the necessary sites for companies to locate, which will diversify the tax base, create the high-paying jobs for our residents and our children in the future. These high paying jobs create disposable income for our workforce, which enhances the overall economy of our community. The manufacturing and technology companies generate more tax revenue per acre for the city than most other types of development. You all were discussing that earlier and they do not consume as many municipal services as much as other types of development. An example of the increase is Boston Whaler. Boston Whaler plays taxes of more than a million dollars per. More than half of these taxes are on personal property taxes on equipment, which residential developments do not pay. This is in addition to the property taxes and in addition to all the utility revenues and impact fees. Deering Parts proposal to create 6 million square feet in the Deering Park Innovation Center in New Smirno Beach is a win for New Smirno Beach, a win for our regional job market, and enhances our regional economic resiliency. I urge you to seriously think about approving this project for the betterment of our region. Thank you so much. Thank you, ma' man. Appreciate your comments. Brooks. My name is Brooks Weiss. I'm an architect. I live at 4314, Goldcove in New Smirna Beach. After my career of working around the world and having lots of experiences to visit places like this place could become. And so I have taken this to heart. I think that what Commissioner Ashley has shared with us is right on target. I like the word vision and this city has not used enough vision as they've progressed through with my experience living here. So I urge you to do that. I think the mayor's idea about developing a special group to manage this project or be the liaison with Daring Park is one worth looking at. And as I've said to many of you before, I encourage the city to hire a city architect who has the experience to judge and work with the professionals and consultants in a way that protects the city's best interests and allows the city and the private developer to work in partnership and not be afraid to say what you want and what you think the city needs because the three-hour tour that we spent with Robbie was an eye-opener for us and a wonderful opportunity for the three of us to speak back and forth in a dialogue that he enjoyed and we enjoyed and we think that if this is anywhere near what Robbie describes it to be this will be an heaven sent to the city. I definitely think that this we have a chance here to have more than one place with Dering Park. A series of villages, if you will. There is enough land out there to support that. But the overall image of Dering Park needs to be one of memory. It needs to be a wow factor. A lot of my experience has been with theme parks and I don't dispute that that's not this most serious architecture but the idea of creating something in an environment where people walk into something and immediately are taken by it and have memories of it, fond memories of it as they leave is is one that we need to strive for in this project, and to layer on to the wonderful thoughts that most all citizens of New Smirno Beach seem to have about the place, but there are ways we can improve on it, and this is an excellent opportunity to enhance that whole living experience. And I urge you to use the MDA and the LDR to really put forth what you want it to be. And I don't lay back, be very specific. I think that there can be a very strong dialogue between what I've experienced from the daring people and what I see now with our new city manager and Mr. Ashleigh. Thank you, Brooks. Thank you for coming. Thank you very much. Robbie, evening. Good evening. Robbie Gibsoniner, 28-39 South Asiano Court, News of Bernabéach. I'm here speaking on behalf of the News of Bernabéach residents coalition briefly. We have appreciated the opportunity tonight and the incredible insights and comments from you and that reflect those of many of our citizens. And also the opportunity that I know we have had and other community members to have every question that we've submitted and there have been multiple ones answered by the staff of the Daring family. And I too went on the Abacoa trip and that was a good visual. Things to watch out for still remain the things that you have mentioned. Stormwater, traffic, the perpetuity of conservation lands and accountability. And so I do hope that you'll be able to consider the need for perhaps what Mayor Cleveland has recommended an additional person to have eyes on this project for the follow-through. So thank you very much for all the thoroughness of this process. Thank you, Robby. Appreciate your comments, ma'am. Mr. Audi. Good evening, Mayor and Commissioner Tonyde, 3530 Grand Tuscany Way. My family and I have been residents in Venetian Bay for 15 years now. And any development proposed near Venetian Bay, I would be concerned about stormwater, traffic, the aesthetics, the architecture, the location of the commercial areas, are they going to be conveniently located for us to patronize them, and then workforce housing so that workers in a mixed-use area like this can live there. And I was happy to see from my reading of the attachment here for the draft of the development agreement, all those items are addressed in the development agreement. Secondly, in the Venetian Bay experience indicates one key to success and that's the city enforcement going forward of the development agreement. And I really want to thank the commission in the city for the most recent example of this is determining that the parking operation that started in Venetian Bay was actually prohibited by the MDA and the city acted and then that was terminated. So that's a kind of interplay here between the developer, the city and then once the development is there the city following up and you know checking the MDA for compliance. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Appreciate your comments. Good evening, Tracy. Good evening. Tracy Barlow, 2004, a Queen Palm Drive Edgewater, Florida. I'm not a resident of Newsmer in a beach. I've been a resident of Southeast Volosha since for 49 years now. It was extremely young, obviously, when I moved here. The I I consider Southeast Valuchia as home as a community, as many people throughout Southeast Valuchia, I commend this commission for all of the hard work that you guys have put into it. And it hasn't happened over the last couple of months. As Jason probably being the most longevity up on this dius is we have had Southeast Valuchia Community Summits for many years putting this together. And it started out with identifying objectives that wanted to be achieved as you guys started to craft this development. Prior to that, I had the opportunity with, before Deering Park owned it, is to work with a developer on what is Deering Park north now and try to identify some of those objectives. But you guys have hit every one of those objectives. We talked about diversification of tax space. We've talked about creating jobs that we no longer had the brain drain where our kids had to leave this area to get good paying jobs and they had nothing to come back to that creating those opportunities, those kids would stay here. Every decision even this commission makes has an impact on all of Southeast Valosha as it does other commissions throughout Southeast Valosha. That's great, that may sound now, but nonetheless. So I want to commend you guys for all the work and the work of your staff. Brian hitett, I had the opportunity to do a 10 hour bus drive ride with Allison to go down there. Like I said, I have been engaged in this since 2009. I made the trip and that's what you're dead on. That's when it come together and you understood it. Ernie is phenomenal tour guide for that. I was in the same boat looking for a reason not to believe Ernie, look for a reason to catch Ernie and you can't. It's real, he's true, he's honest, he's straightforward and so that was a phenomenal experience. Josh was good too, but yeah, all of them were the entire team. So I encourage you, everyone of you guys, before they take the time, go there, Take your very own Stephanie Doster with you very educated if you're running a Things to talk about you'll know more about peanut grass than you thought you Ever needed to know. So it was an awesome trip. So I'd make the time. Take the time. Thank you for a seat. Appreciate your comments. Let's do. Good evening Mayor Commission. I want to thank you for all the tough questions you've asked tonight. They were all the ones that I wanted answers to. But as we all heard, this is like 6 million square feet elevated, just two miles upstream from where I've had water in my house twice. I never had water for like 40 years. So the current development, the HOA's along Pioneer Trail, the stuff going in at Sugar Mill, there's hundreds of houses there. Now I've already gone under twice, so I'm not in denial. I'm going under again. This project, 2150 houses, 6 million square feet all elevated. When they say they're going to send it to a swamp, well that swamp is filling up at the same time that their neighborhoods are filling up. They say they're going to take it to the St. Johns. Have you ever seen all the flooding at the St. Johns? It takes weeks for that to ever go down. So that all sounds fancy, but they say they don't know where how they're going to get it there, but they promise you. Traffic, they promise you. They have nothing on their on their board, but for me. The ditches on Highway 44 are overcapacity. They've dug on deeper wider, I have documented it, and they're still overcapacity. We have two northerly conveyance routes on the south side of Highway 44. The one was the mile and a half coming from Sugar Mill. There was four feet of water in there after Ian. All that water is being pushed to my house behind my property line off the north side of 44. Then you have the one by John's appliance. That one's a real bear. You got water for lakes, Corbin Parks going under water. Now you're going to spend 8 million improved that, but put black, backflow valves on some of those pipes. That means you're going to push all that water into my backyard and then it can't even backflow on an incoming tide, which means I will receive even more water. So I've asked you to know that the FDOT is not on top of anything. There are FDOT ponds up against my property, backflow. Yet it's engineered to bring storm water from all the commercial development up and down 44, comes to my house and they know they can't convey it downstream. So it ends up on my property. Thank you. Thank you Steve. Appreciate your comments. Hello Joe. Welcome. Good evening Joe the Blueback, Venetian Bay. Up at the 30,000 foot level I had to ask myself what is the master plan that the city has for the area west of 95? I know that there's been a detailed parks plan, there's been a rec plan, there's been this, there's an act. And it's not clear when the last time we've had a relook as we're doing today with the charter of looking at the comp plan and see if we have something there. Specifically with the definition bay, we have tons of lessons learned that we've developed over the years and have an itinerary that we want to share with you and we'd like to encourage you to make use of that as you proceed with what we're doing with this project. I won't talk about interstructure requirements like schools, nobody mentioned schools. The same thing with the light industry. What is the customer base for that? And is in fact that going across the city something to start this project going. The last thing I want to mention is we're very sensitive to flooding. I get nervous when we hear we all know that water in this St. John's River flows north. I guess nervous when I hear someone say well I'm going to flow south and then west. Wait a minute. If I do that, that's what the SAMH Sula Canal is. And yes, I'm not going to impact the Utilities Commission Land or Venetian Bay. But you really are because that is flooding already. And that piece of canal goes all the way down to edgewater. Just the last suggestion I'd like to suggest that we do not rush into signing an MDA or a few D until we have all the issues like flooding and complete it. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Appreciate your comments. Good evening. My name is Dr. Julian Abyk, a 24-ever Green Street New Smyrna Beach, Florida. I'm over a decade here resident New Smyrna Beach, and I'm here to request that you consider deep thoughts about the plans for Deering Park. Development does not necessarily equal progress. Preservation equals progress. What remains of New Smyrna Beach is a preservation of what Florida was and what it should be forever. New Smyrna Beach appeals to the world not because of what we have but because of what we don't. We don't have overdevelopment, we don't have over commercialization, ransacking, and the development that is being proposed here, I believe will strip New Smirno Beach of its unique identity. The impact is not just going to be on the west side of I-95, but the impacts on beach side as well. What are they going to be the second order of effects that will transpire in terms of future requests to re-zone other properties around New Smirno Beach, which we've seen others try to request in the past? There could be very strong negative effects that snowball and can further remove the true identity that is New Smirno Beach. We don't need more shopping plazas. We have plenty of them here. They exist. Why not repurpose them? There's plenty of spaces for leasing and for purchasing. And we can refocus our energy and our time on supporting local businesses, rather than bringing in commercializations and other innovative quote unquote tech industries. Do we really want to be welcomed to Newsmer in a beach with hotels and tech buildings that are headquartered right on I-95? I think that's not going to be a welcoming sign for anybody into Newsmer to Beach. So I vehemently oppose the development. We propose the preservation of this land as is and strongly encourage you to do the same as your voters have chosen you to protect our way of life. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Appreciate your comments. Thank you, order. Professor. Thanks for all the questions that were answered. Jason's half hour was really well done. Thanks for that. Thanks for answering all the questions and thanks for Jason's half hour. As I look forward to retirement, the best part of my work day is as I drive through Spruce Creek Preserve and see real Florida the way it's supposed to be. My feelings have no cloud compared to big money, so I mean what's gonna happen is probably just gonna happen. Even though I'd rather it didn't. Two main things I wanted to bring up was the impact credits and then water. With the 50 acres for the park and recreation area and the 10 acres on the police and 30 acres for school, I don't know how much money that would involve that's 90 acres. And again, I'm not sure how the impact credit thing works, but maybe if delaying, taking that on would allow you to have that impact money to start on fixing 44, I don't know how that works. But if you would wait on committing to those impact fee things, again I don't know how that works. I would like to see those things in the agreement not be something that could be rescinded by the owner that once they actually come to that development that it's written as now that it has to be taken care of in a certain timeline or the property owner can take that land back. So I don't know how that goes. I would prefer that if we go forward that that's not something. Look, if we need the recreation area and the police area and the school, we need it. Okay. Water, a number of people already mentioned that. Mother Nature's the best engineer. The water flows north and east. 44 was not always an elevated four-lane road. That roadway blocked a lot of the flow. Venetian Bay was a huge reservoir of water after hurricanes. That blocked a lot of flow. A number of people that had been here and spoken and then another friend of mine who's an engineer who's actually worked on some of the farmton projects. I mentioned that the downstream part of going into Turnbull Bay where the new Turnbull Bay road bridges, there's some flow blockage there from that bridge and he said especially the trussle, that train trussle evidently has a massive amount of oysters underneath it and that's blocking flow. He mentioned something about that being cleaned up a little bit, but I would, I don't know, I'd love to see that part of the engineering plan for that place maybe work with nature and try and get the northeast flow to work, and then everybody would be served better. So I have more to say, but of course, my time's out. So thank you. Thank you me and appreciate your comments Crystal. Even Jay. Hi good evening Jay Pundergaast 5900 South of the Wank Avenue. Obviously I support the Deering Park Innovation Center and really because I mean Nusomar this is a significant opportunity for the city. This is probably the most thought out well planned project that I've ever heard of. I've been here for 25 years. I'm also a third generation for the Reddy, and if we have to start throwing out how many times you've been here and how much you love the state. But I mean, this is a significant opportunity. And you have a property owner who's willing to work with you and they're really going the extra mile, the amount of the area that's being conserved. I mean, I think it's really great. I commend the commission for asking a lot of questions. Certainly there were mistakes made with other projects in the past, but by asking the hard questions and taking the time, I think that you will get a really good community and a great partner to work with. So I just encourage you to keep up the effort. Let's get this thing moving so we can see it in our lifetime. Thank you. Appreciate your comments. Cindy, good evening. Good evening, Cindy Sneezak. I really appreciate the stick to itness of the commission in holding the number of public workshops and the attorney's willingness to actually come back and answer the questions that were answered previously. I think that's phenomenal. I think that good people can solve any problem that they're presented with without harming others in the process. And I see you doing that tonight and I see attorney's stortch working toward that. So that's a great thing. So good people solving problems. I particularly appreciate your comments this evening, Mr. Mayor, about St. Road 44 and the Deering Park can't just be a great place like a high-end community in West Palm or Palm Beach County. Excuse me, should is. but that also the quality of life of the rest of New Smirna is not harmed by what happens there. And I think that starts with traffic and DOT. I was a consultant with DOT for eight years, I'm very familiar with how those processes work. So the city, perhaps the city manager, but certainly you should require that the attorney and the developers represent it is really press the district secretary, which we are in a district of DOT, and we have a dedicated secretary and the F. secretary and the upcoming open houses with DOT where the city is in a position to take a stand on what the priorities are for future planning because F.S horizon is very large. They're not talking about two to three years down the road. So if we don't get in line and be very clear about what we need and want, we're not going to get it for 15 or 20 or 25 years, that's a problem. I also encourage you to really understand and work on the mantra of whole-part whole. We've talked this evening and in our other workshops here specifically about News Meribige, but what has already been approved, and perhaps even some of it permitted in Edgewater, is even more impactful to us than these 2150 or whatever the number is in the 6 million square feet. We are a small part in that development cog, and if we don't really look at this all together and kind of get them helping us on this, what they're doing in Edgewater is gonna kill us on 44 no matter what. So, but I don't hear conversations about that. I didn't hear conversations about the sighting of the high school, believe it's called the high school tonight, and in proximity to the recreation area, I thought previously I heard that that recreation area was a county area. I think I heard tonight it was a city area, but I have more reading to do on that as well. So don't stop asking questions and getting clear answers. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Appreciate your comments. Yes, welcome Jess Romero 787 Cooper Street I want to echo what's the speech I said about you guys did a great job tonight the workshop and Brian I'm almost dead with Glenn and but not quite I'm getting it, okay? I think you may call today really appreciate go to Glenn has done I've heard abacol mentioned many times I'm probably one of the only persons that's gotten drunk at Abacol Town Center in this room right now. And I recall Abacol before it was Abacol. Abacol has one thing that we don't have before we got started. St. Louis Cardinal's trading center. I used to go to a lot of games there before Abacol came to the hemp thing. Florida facility or campus And it scripts this is to is there also before Abacol was built and on the corner of Donner Ross Road in 95 which is part run right in front of Abacol was the United Technologies Another headquarters for them a big building now is a carrier headquarters So they had three anchors already going in before it was built. We have none so far. It's going to get there, I believe it is. But I want to focus on what this PUD says on here. And I'm looking at the new one that came out today. I thank Landford putting in the structure, what it means in there. And but I look at page 18 on paragraph three, sub-paragraph A and B. And look at also the table about phases one, two, three, and four. Now we have talked about six million square feet, up to six million square feet of non-residential light industrial. However, if you look at this picture, I understand it has to be they only have to build 3 million square feet. That's it. Because according to this table, phase one, two, three, and four, all the homes are built and it says he has to build a minimum of half-million square feet, constructed with a facility in it, and then put out a half--millions feet and then get another phase one starts. Then you have phase two. And then you only have four phases and half-millions square feet each. That's only three million square feet. Where the rest of the bet? What happens to the rest of the three million square feet of the industry industry? Who's Bill and does? Are we doing that? Are they going to do that? Also on this force complex, it says 85% of a buildable property land, hopefully be upland. What if it's wetlands? Who's going to build that? What has to be something more in writing in here in the PUD? And I wish you had more time because I want you to this whole thing today. Oh, there's NP an opinion of it. It's a lot of things today have questions on. I'll get together with Glenn afterwards or call them and talk to him. Thank you. Thank you. Just appreciate your comments. Anyone else for public participation? Yes ma'am. Hello Nicole. Nicole Beth, I live at 1131, Saxon. So my question is to you. Would you be willing to hold a 72-hour workshop continuous with all of your brilliant residents that you have with experience in master planning, design, sustainability. This has been done before and what happens is not just questions based on a on a PUD presentation. What would happen is you would lay out tables and you would put the PUD on it and you would answer and layer over concerns with this with with this the residents you would have your questions answered How would you do this because right now when I'm a visual person I did visioning for 30 years and I can't I can't understand what what's happening with the Still, I've heard vision 25 times tonight. I still don't know what the vision is. And when you start to create bubble diagrams and you start to work out these innovative, sustainable, harmonious techniques, then you understand what the vision is. Peanut grass is not a vision. It's a native plant that is a subcategory of what's called permaculture. Everyone in this room knows what permaculture is. This goes into visioning. This goes into what is the thread of these nature, harmony, and community that is listed on the website. So I think a more involved workshop would answer all these, and then there wouldn't be all this guesswork of how this is going to happen. You have brilliant people in here, master planners. It goes on and on and on. So and your residents, if you pull from your residents, you have top of the architects in this town, world famous people. I worked all over the globe doing master planning city. And I think I'd even worked with the co-partner of the gentleman that did master planning Chris Miles. So yeah, that's all I got to say. Can you do a workshop? Thank you, ma'am. Appreciate that. Anyone else for public participation? Seeing none, public participation is now closed and invite Mr. Cox and Mr. Storch back up. And for those of you who may not know, may not picked it up, we want to talk about for a second, maybe Glenn Uyer Ernie can talk about. This place called Badcock Ranch that Mr. Cox had his hands on and designed is a sustained resilient facility on the west coast as south west coast of Florida which has proven impact resistant against storms and what have you. That is the type of stuff that we're looking for here. Maybe you say a few words about that Ernie about how you came to, how do you figure that one out? I mean, it was the first of its kind and it stood a couple of great tests from Ian and what have you. Say something about that if you don't mind. Okay, so Babcock Ranch started out 91,000 acre ranch and I always have even even working over there years. I still think I 75 and then you go east from I 7575 and it's between Fort Myers and Arcadia so to give you a sense of where it is 25 minutes from downtown Fort Myers and the family that had owned it for generations had decided to sell. They were going to sell it to the state for conservation but tax issues issues that was owned by a sea corporation, they were going to be spending most of the money from the state to the IRS. And so they put it out there. And a gentleman by the developer by the name of Sid Kitson came in and said to the family, I want to preserve as much of it as I can, but I also want to build a sustainable community. And so I was fortunate enough to join SIDS team right after he made that announcement. And in the beginning, it was how do you take 91,000 acres? So a big chunk of it to the state for conservation and then create a sustainable community. One of the challenges was no one had really done that in Florida. And so we got some really talented people together to discuss it, but then we also spent a lot of time on the land. And detailed hydrology, detailed analysis, detailed study. And ultimately the vision was 73,000 acres would be sold to the state at that time. It still is the largest single conservation purchase the state of Florida's done. It was $350 million in public money. And then how do you design a community around the resources that are there? So the first thing was major systems that would be protected. The second was developing areas that had already been impacted either mining or timber or pasture and farming. And one of the differences there is most of the timber had been cleared from that property many years ago in this circumstance, the timber being harvested as we go. But back to Babcock, it was working with the land and then working with Charlotte County and Wee County to design a community that would work. That was the sale got done, the PUD got approved, the conference plan was amended, and then we got into the engineering and the permitting and the species. And we did the same thing that I've talked about with Mark Dallas, this detailed analysis of where's the water going, where's it coming from, where did it used to go, where did it used to come from, how do you design it, and then what are the standards, and then how do you increase the standards, and then areas that you would say, okay instead of just just having a swell, how do you take the water off of the road into a swell, into a bioswale, into a stormwater pond, and then into a natural area. And so that series of different ponds, one of the big things was connected lake system. Instead of just lake, lake, lake, lake, lake, not a bit connected, the Babcock system, all the lakes are connected to all the other lakes. What that does is it gives you a whole lot of storage capacity in the lakes themselves. And then all the utilities underground, both power, internet, hardened infrastructure, tilt wall buildings for utilities, just each of the little pieces, and then native landscaping. All the common areas in Babcock are native. One of the benefits of native trees is that they withstand storms better. Your live oak will lose its leaves, and then it'll break off its small branches. It's just what they do. Whereas an exotic tree will fall over, and just little things like that, but all of it put together with some real thought. And then proof was the Ian Saddle. Saddle and the storm, I've got a video, said Kitson on his phone in his house. It worked. The only thing they had after is some of the street signs had twisted because of the 140-mountain or winds. But the system functioned as it was supposed to function. And it's interesting, one of our team members is Dr. Jennifer Langwell, an extraordinary engineering contractor. But she would always use in the design phase, we are going to be intentional about designing this community to withstand storms. And so after Ian, once the storm cleared, first everybody kind of surveyed the community. And second, they then went out of the community to help the people that were not as fortunate as they were. And so what we're going to do our very best is to take the best things that were done at Babcock, adapt them to edgewater and New Sumerna Beach in Southeast Volusia and one day Northern Brevard, and also the best that we saw from Abacoa. The integrated stormwater system in Abacoa works in a big storm. So it's lessons learned but it's bits and pieces and then probably the most important thing to kind of respond a little bit to the vision. It's the vision of how do you do it all. It's not just one thing. It's not just one piece. It's how do you connect all of those pieces so that it becomes a community that evolves over time. So, probably a little long-ed. No, very instructive thanks, Ernie. It's a shame you don't know more about it. If you ever wanted to or that one, I can do that. Okay. And I just wanted to respond to a couple of questions at the moment. Because I mean, literally, there was only a few questions from the responses. So Jesse, I'm going to talk to her regarding LID and what possibly can be done. Obviously, Jess, I'm going to try to answer his questions. But the most interesting to me was the question from, I'm sorry, Cindy. Of course, Cindy's question regarding traffic, because she's absolutely right. I mean, she's absolutely right. It takes forever to work these things out. It took me about 10 years to work out the alignments, to get the alignments in the right of ways from Pioneer Trail down to 442. It's very difficult and to get these things done. And so she's absolutely right. So what we'll start doing when we start pulling this together. We're going to be starting working with DOT immediately because it does take so long to try and work together and create that solution. Thank you. Thank you all. Appreciate it. Any closing comments by my colleagues? Mr. McGurk? Give me about 25 minutes. Very good. I've got the counter going here. Anyone else? You were going to say something. Thank you for the time you've taken to accommodate us. Probably and all the tours he's done, I will tell you that this feels different. I've been here a while doing this and had number of developers pitch projects. And I will tell you that you guys are at an elite level. I appreciate that and I'm gonna believe in what you're saying. You have the examples to back it up and I appreciate that. And Ernie, I think you are a very genuine person and I look forward to working with you on this project. I certainly appreciate that. Anyone else? To the resident. I agree with Jason. What was that? I agree with Jason. Okay. Very good. To the residents, citizens of our community being citizens. Thank you for doing your part. It has heightened our senses and you can tell that we have a diverse skill set up here and through that diverse skill set we will feather through each and every one of these issues one by one. We won't take the place of the city staff Mr. Calper and his team will be running the program but we're going to ask we're going to continue to ask and dig and ask questions until we're satisfied that this is going to above all do no harm. Second order effects are important and that it does create a positive thing for everyone not just for those who will be out west. Anyway thank you for coming tonight we're adjourned. you