Welcome to the April 2025 meeting of the community planning and preservation commission for the city of St. Petersburg. This commission reviews proposed changes to the comprehensive plan, land use and zoning, as well as historic preservation related proposals and makes recommendations to the city council. Our agenda today includes presentations. Staff, the applicant, and any registered opponent each have approximately 10 minutes for their presentation. After the presentations, each member of the public who wishes to address the commission will have three minutes to speak. When called on to speak, please step up to the podium and state your name and address for the record. We ask that you make your remarks brief and not repetitive of prior testimony. All questions are to be directed to me as chair. I will in turn redirect the questions the appropriate person for response. At the conclusion of these steps, the commission will enter into executive session. Commissioners may ask questions at any time during the process upon being recognized by the chair. I ask at this time that all cell phones be silenced and Iris can be a vocal. Marbelle. Here. Gardner. Magnello. Horasco. Davis. Jeffrey. Nelson. Nelson here Michael's Drake here want to make her and we have a quorum all right at this time please stand ask that if there are any members of the audience that wish to speak today, please remain standing or stand again and raise your right hand so that Iris can swear you in. Do you swear or affirm that the evidence you will give today will be the truth, the whole truth, and that the truth? If you are not the owner, applicant, agent, or registered opponent affiliated with an item on the agenda today and wish to speak, please spell out a green comment card at the front podium and hand it to the clerk. Seeing none. Next on the agenda is the approval of the meeting minutes from last month, which includes the revisions that were sent on Friday with the minor edits. Is there any discussion or comments? Okay, if there are no corrections to the minutes, I will take a motion. All those in favor? Aye. Opposed? All right, minutes are approved. Next is a public comment portion of this meeting. Is there anyone today that wishes to speak on anything that is not on the agenda today? Seeing none, at this time, I'll have Iris read the first item into the record. Okay, and this is City File Number 25-902-0026. The request is a review of a certificate of appropriateness application for window replacement at 3135-7000 New North, a contributing property and a local historic district. The owner is Erin O'Brien, the agent Eduardo Martinez with window wall and Cindy Cohannick is the staff planner in this case. All right good afternoon Cindy Cohannick historic preservationist for the city of St. Petersburg. This project is a COA review for 3135 seventh ab north. One public comment was received after the meeting packet was posted to the website and was forwarded to the commission as well as the applicant. The public comment was basically regarding the requirement for the windows to be recessed and concerning that. 3135 7th Ave North is located in the northwest Kenwood local historic district. It is listed as contributing to both the local and the national register historic districts. The frame vernacular house on site was moved here from the outside the city in 1932. A section of the front porch on the right side was filled in for use as heated space at some point. The 1951 sandboard map on the left shows that section of the porch was still open at the time. This change is not specifically addressed in permits, but in 1958 a permit is listed for repairs to the porch and for floor replacement to concrete. Thus, it appears the right side porch enclosure occurred sometime after that. The porch on the left side was screened at one point, as you can see in the FMSF survey photo here, but it has since been reopened. COA request is for window replacement for 12 windows on the main structure. Eight are original or historic windows which are labeled one through eight on this floor plan. Four of them are not original or historic and they are labeled as windows nine through 12 on the plan. The proposed replacement windows are PGT vinyl impact windows. All windows except for number 12 are proposed to be replaced to match the existing configurations on the house. This includes one over one for the windows in openings one through ten and a roller window in opening number 11. For opening number 12 on the front it currently houses two awning windows and is proposed to be replaced with a single horizontal fixed light window. This existing awning window, the existing awning windows appear to be modern vinyl replacements, but the functionality and configuration of these awning windows may date back to when the porch was first enclosed, which may have been as early as 1958, the date's not exact, or we don't have an exact date for that. The mullions or vertical divisions between the paired windows are proposed to be replaced. The existing wood mullions appear to be in good condition and are either historic or replaced in kind. They appear to measure approximately four to five inches and width. The proposed replacement mulls are one and a quarter inches in width. This change in width may be less noticeable due to the additional vinyl frame materials in the adjacent windows, but ultimately the proposed replacement of the mullions is inconsistent with the guidelines due to the material dimension and profile changes proposed. The change in the mullion also has the potential domino effect of creating a change in the width for the adjacent windows anywhere from two and three quarter inches to three and three quarter inches total over both windows. But again that may be offset by the difference in material of the vinyl replacement windows. This next slide here shows a few examples of paired windows from the PGT win guard catalog. None of these examples are the exact configuration that we would see here. Most of these appear to be like casement or fixed windows. The casement typically do have more frame material in them. And the drawing on the right is the drawing of the proposed mullion from the application materials. The staff report does include a statement on the need to utilize a box frame or a flange frame that can be recessed into the opening to match the existing. This proposed flange frame is illustrated in the middle drawing that's from the application materials. Should be able to be recessed as long as the buck or blind stop is far enough back in the overall opening. Previous projects have utilized the same window and the same flange and we're able to accomplish the same window or window recess as illustrated an image on the left, which is actually from 26, 10 Burlington Ave, which had the same windows replaced, these same windows utilized a few years back. And then the image on the right is actually from our design guidelines just illustrating some of these details. In summary, staff evaluation yields that most of the relevant criteria were not met for the granting of a certificate of appropriateness about half the criteria were met for the guidelines for alterations and many of the relevant criteria were met for the guidelines for window replacement. Much of the inconsistencies listed in the staff report related back to the proposed replacement of the mullions and the change in the configuration for the front awning windows. Ultimately staff is recommending approval with conditions for the COA for the replacement windows at 31.35.7 have north. Conditions include the standard conditions of approval which are 4 through 7 listed here as well as the retention of the existing or a similar function configuration for windows on the front. The preservation of the existing millions between the paired windows to be replaced and the requirement for windows to be recessed to match the existing. That concludes my report. Staff is here if you have any questions and the applicant owner is actually here as well. Great. Thank you so much. Okay. Would the applicant like to make the presentation? And when you get up to the podium can you just state your name and address? your name and address? Hi, my name is Aaron O'Brien. I'm the owner of 31-35-7th Avenue North. All right. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to speak today. I just wanted to add to the report and provide a few additional details that may not have been covered. I've been the owner of this home for about 12 years, purchased in 2013. I've also been a resident of St. Petersburg since 2009. When I did purchase the home, it was not considered a historic district, but I of course have been excited to see how the neighborhood has upheld its character and have been happy to be part of that. So again, I'm here today because the windows I believe the replacement is essential. It's not cosmetic. What I'm looking to do here is to replace windows that are, of course, stated. They are not energy efficient and they are not hurricane-impact rated. When the opportunity recently came that I was able to go forward with this project and met with our contractor window wall who is also here today and may be able to answer some questions that I can't regarding technical specs. I am certainly not a window expert. So I just want to talk about a few points that were not covered in the report to clarify some things on the frame type and the window specs and the staff recommendations. Again, we're replacing 12 windows. I have included some photos here that I can reference to show that the windows are not currently in good condition. This photo here is actually of window number one and you can see that it's missing part of the hardware. So when I moved into this home, all of the original windows were actually painted shut, which I believe was due to previous occupants trying to make the home safer. So we were able to open some of them, but many of the windows currently are inoperable, which of course does not necessarily affect the look of the windows, but it does affect the usability of them. Also, the condition as we'll go, I won't read all of this, I think most of it was covered. All I'm trying to do here is replace these windows with energy efficient, hurricane-impact-rated windows, while of course keeping the existing aesthetic and the look of the home. I took some photos of these examples here, so the windows are noted, you can see that there is some cracking in the wood. There are gaps and some of the, I believe it's called glazing, has chipped off. So as I was taking these photos, you can feel the air conditioning from the house coming outside. So replacing these windows would, of course, save money in my energy bills as well as my insurance, which is, of course course always appreciated. So I believe that we can replace these windows while keeping the same look of the originals, and that's all I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to increase the aesthetic of the house. I just want to keep the way they look and make them a little bit more functional and also help contribute to the energy value and the safety of the home. These single-paint windows also are not very strong. I can tell you that my dog actually was able to jump through one of the windows, broke it. So if my dog can jump through the window, I'm sure somebody that was walking by and if wanted to rob the house or come inside, they would be able to break the glass as well. So again, just trying to increase the safety of the home. This was addressing the public comment about the flange windows and I would probably refer to a window wall to address this in more detail but basically the reason this was chosen was just because it is the standard frame for these windows. And we do believe that the visual outcome will remain the same. There's going to be no change in the visual outcome.. Window wall is gonna do their best to maintain the recess and the dimensions of the existing windows. So again, we are absolutely open to suggestions and the recommendations of the commission. Again, looking for hurricane resistance here and meeting code compliance and preserving the historic look. So if the commission has changes, they recommend we are open to those. We just ask those changes not be made to the actual windows themselves that would require us to start this process all over. And again, we appreciate the professional assessment of the staff report and we hope that we can come to a conclusion that works for everyone that still meets the requirements of the historic preservation area as well as the guidelines required to install these new windows. If there are any questions, I'm happy to answer those, although I may also need to refer to somebody with a little bit more technical background on the windows, but I do appreciate your time today. Thank you for letting me speak. And that's all. Thank you. Okay. Now we're going to move into public hearing, but I did not receive any green comment cards on this, so we can move into cross-examination. Does city staff have any cross-examination? City staff waves. Okay, does the applicant have any cross-examination? Does the city staff have any rebuttal or closing remarks? I will state that the front to oning windows is, we're not exactly sure on the date. So while typically we would have a request that that be replaced with awning or maybe two fixed windows and a similar appearance. I don't know, it's up to the commissions per view if they want to see that or if they are okay with the fixed horizontal light. The horizontal light tends to be something that zoning frowns upon so that might be a concern as well. However, it's six of one half dozen of another because it's, we can't prove that those are historic and those have been there since 58. So thank you. Does the applicant have any closing remarks? Just as a comment on that window 12. Again we are happy to consider. I believe the reason the fixed window single pane or single across was chosen was as a cost savings measure and also to increase hurricane impact resistance. And if that was a sticking point, we are of course open to reconsidering that. All right. So now the commissioners are gonna move into executive session. Anyone have any comments that would like to start? Yes. I have a little bit of input. I know the house and so so there are a couple of things. The porch was actually enclosed in the 80s for the woman that lived in there at the time by her daughter who Elizabeth that lives across the street from you. And I think Kathy Young was a person that renovated and added that I'll call it trellis or whatever, awning type things underneath it, probably about 98 or so. So I don't think it is historic. I guess the question I'd have, we saw a presentation a couple of months ago where there was a panel underneath the window that created more of a visual appearance to that. And I just wondered if you'd given any thought to the idea of trying to do that. So you get the privacy, you get the awning windows, but somehow you're getting more of a vertical nature to it to make it look more attractive. I think my only concern there would be is that room is currently serving as my closet. So I would be concerned about the privacy of increasing the vertical look of a window. Why are we talking about it? So I can show you a picture that might help, but keep the windows the same, but a panel much like they added that wooden structure underneath, just to give it more of an appropriate look for the neighborhood. Yeah, I think that's something we could consider if need be. Could we see a picture? Yeah. No? Do we have a picture of, that was in the staff report? That's of what you're talking about? No. Because we just can't take your phone, so. OK. Thanks. My, did you have any? No, no, that's it. Can we pull up the conditions one through seven? Cindy is that possible? I'm sorry. Can we pull up conditions one through seven? And my question to the applicant would be have you guys reviewed one through three for these? Yes, would you mind going up? So regarding number one, which is the replacement for 12, and again, that is something that we are open to adjust if need be. Again, the reasoning for choosing the current window was cost and impact resistance, but because at the time I was not aware that that was a direct and again, the window that we're referencing is not historic here. So kind of thought it would be okay. Exist the number two. So this may be something I might ask our representative from window wall to discuss. I'm not sure if he's able to do that, but from what we just discussed a few minutes ago. So the existing wood mullions are actually hollow because of the window type, and the covering over that is really aluminum. So we're not, I don't believe we're doing a significant change. It's not all of the original materials. And the, I don't believe that the windows that we would be installing are able to be exactly replicated with the wood millions. I could be wrong on that. And then condition number three is, yeah. We've been told that the setback into the wall plane is going to match the existing historic recess of at least two inches. That is my understanding that that will be retained. Okay, great. Thank you. Sure. Anyone have any comments about one and two of these approvals or any other comments? I just was curious if the two-inch setback was going to be written into the scope at all or if it just says yes, we'll do that or if it's written actually into the scope of work. Or if it could be. Am I able to allow our concentrate to come in? Yeah. Are you able to answer that question? Yeah. Okay. Hello. And when you get up. Okay, and hello, and when you get up. Yeah. So coming from Window World, the project manager, the window will match a saga, the same spot it is right now. You're going to match the twinches on the recess. line number 12 12, that the window, you asked before to heard, it will match. It will not match like the way the window will open. But from the review, it will match the same size and the same type of glass pretty much. Because two layers later, it means got two panels a gonna run only one panel but when you shot the window you're gonna have to be so glad they promote the same thing you have before. Thank you. Anyone else have any comments? One quick question. From the staff report, it did discuss that the mullion was quite a bit smaller, withwise, but you're saying that what is on there now is just a piece of like a capping of aluminum. It's not a part of the original window. Yes. So we plan to change the wood volume for aluminum volume because those type of windows you have before between those wood, you have like a piece of of metal and that piece of metal made the window open and closed and to install our windows properly attached we need to put aluminum or like a piece of pipe on between window because those wood is hollow and it is impossible to attach our window to the wood volumes properly. Okay, because it's going from like four inches to one and a quarter I think. It's like the tennis we can match the window for the exterior copy. It's going to look pretty much the same thing. The mold by would not have the same thing, but at the end of the final research, you're going to have the for each on between windows. Thank you. Do we as a group agree with all of the conditions or do we want to revisit any of the conditions? I'm not clear about where the applicant stands with respect to the conditions. One through three are you able to abide by those conditions? So it looks like three we were good with. So it's just one and two I think. Yes, three. Yes, we are fine with condition number three, condition number two. I would say it will visually match the existing. The materials might be slightly different, but I can confirm I think you asked about an aluminum cap and yes, that's essentially I think what it but if you tap exterior on the exterior part of the window on the interior I think it still would but on the exterior at some point was either replaced with aluminum or maybe that was part of the original but we can keep the same look of the exterior for condition number two. I just don I don't believe it's possible to have the existing wood mullions remain. And then for condition number one, if that is definitely a condition and it needs to, so let me just clarify. So it right now, it is one window, but it looks like it's two because it's got the separation in the middle. So you would be okay with, we would just need to get a different type of window so that it has that separation in the middle, is that correct? That's my understanding. Okay, okay. We do that. We'd have to talk a bit. We can change, but the window. Would you mind stepping up? Or yeah, you can find. So the window on between those pieces of glass, you had a separation right now. I can show you a picture how to look two slides later. If you can compare to the opening you had right now. OK, can we look at a guess? You have a new presentation. Oh, you do? Okay. Is it the same photos I already have in the presentation? No, I'm gonna show you like for something recent, how look. Okay. Right, then yeah, you can put it down there. This one is three lights lighter. You see the on between glad you had a- Would you mind just stepping up to the microphone really quick? Thank you. So sorry, is it just me? Yeah, that's right now that one is a three-lice lighter the one she has right now is two-lice lighter. You see like the the white tree on between two glass. She's gonna have the same thing on the two light, but on the middle. It will look pretty much the same she has right now. So it would be in the slide here. Yes, okay. That's the one you choose right now. Okay. Would you mind, I'm sorry, would you mind pulling up one through seven again just so that we can look at it? Okay. So just to clarify the existing is two movable awning windows right now. Yes. So they lift up and so it sounds like you could potentially do a slider Which would leave you with that division in the center? Mm-hmm. The same thing would happen with an awning or if you did two fixed light two separate fixed light in the center Which is what the staff condition was potentially contemplating? I did not contemplate a slider in that. So you may be looking at an edit at number one then. Okay. And number 12 is the one that we're kind of unsure of the date, correct? Yeah, number 12 is the one on the infill in the front porch and it sounds like Commissioner Jeffrey said that might have been done around the 80s which there is a permit for the siding on the house at the time, which I think in the staff report I mentioned might have been part of a larger project. We just didn't have there's not a whole lot of permit details from that time period. Okay. And for the mullions, some of the changes could have been made previously. Typically what you have is some framing wood in the center there. It sounds like that might have been taken out over the years. It is typical to leave the wood mullions in the center, especially if you have the framing, the two by four or whatever framing in the center still. If that's not existing, you could always recreate it with wood and then put the two individual windows in or use the options are to use that or to go back and frame it out with wood. And that's what number two is stating. Yeah, and that is typical. You typically had to have a lot more in the center because you had the sash packs. Essentially, you had the pulleys and everything else, I'm sorry, now the sash packs, the pulleys, and all the functioning you have to double with in the center because you had two windows next to each other. So there essentially is a pocket in there for all of that to function. Okay. Okay, so can we pull up one through seven? So it sounds like we'll need to discuss an edit to number one regarding the potential for a sliding window replacement to keep that middle divide. I could comment. I think wasn't the other option to do two fixed windows versus a slider. I mean, I think that's what you would recommend in your staff report. I pondered, frankly, I didn't pond the slider. It is not unheard of. It is something that would have a similar appearance. You're just going to have the sash, the difference in the level of the recess of each sash because one has to go behind the other. So I just pondered the, you know, awning configuration or a fixed light configuration, which would still give you that piece down the center that looks like they're two separate windows. They don't necessarily have to function the same way. And what, I'm sorry, what's this is not on the facade? This is on like the side of the house is on the front. It's on the front. It is on the side of the house. This is on the front. It's on the front. It's on the very front, yeah. So it is, let's go back to the main house. That's from the FMS photo, but that is, it is this piece on the right-hand side of the house. Thank you. I think I'd prefer that it either be two fixed panels or two awning panels and not a slider because that's a very different look. I agree. prefer that it either be two fixed panels or two awning panels and not a slider because that's that's a very different look. I agree I think the depth of the slider would be different especially at the front of the house. So now it seems like the only condition that needs to be addressed is condition to potentially. In all those windows there either recessed on the porch or on the side of the building correct. All windows on the house are currently recessed yes. Not recessed just within the opening but can you pull the front picture back up again? This one? Or actually, actually go back to the window diagram. There you go. Okay, so the windows we're talking about, other than the ones that are on the back side of the porch, everything else is on the side or back of the building. That's correct. 12 and 1 and 2 are technically on the front. You've got 11 which could be seen from the street and 3 and 4 which could also be seen from the street. 5 and 6 aren't going to be very visible in the rest of them around the back or the side. Okay. Does anyone have any, like, do we have any edits to number two as a group? I guess looking at the, looking at the way the windows one and two are recessed and porch and the others are on the side I'm not sure that that's something I want to Commit to or necessarily need to commit to two. Okay. Does anyone else have any thoughts or opinions on omitting to? I would agree to a minute. I feel since around the side it's warranted. Okay. How does the applicant really quick before we move into it? So there's one through seven of the conditions. So essentially we'd be talking about moving forward with an approval conditions of accepting one and then three through seven. Are you guys amenable to that? Okay. All right. Can I have a motion? I'll make a motion to approve the certificate of a motion to approve the Certificate of Appropriateness application for a window replacement at 3135 7th ab north, a contributing property in a local historic district, to approve with conditions listed in the staff report 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. We have a second. Second. Okay. If I may. Just one clarifying question. So we're not looking for the wood millions to remain or the existing millions to remain on any of the paired windows to utilize what they're proposing in the application, which is the vinyl or the metal. I think it's a metal backing with basically the vinyl flange window. I just want to clarify that we're all in the same page. All right, great. Thank you. All right. Can we take a vote? Yes. Marvay? Yes. Davis? Yes. Jeffrey? Yes. Nelson? Yes. Michael's. Yes. Drake. No. And that motion passes. Thank you. But I make one additional comment. Yeah. I'd like you. I'll show you a picture of what I'm thinking about. I just think that that might enhance the look of your house quite a bit, but we did not make it a condition. Okay. All right. Well, thank you guys for your time. And at this point, we will move into updates and announcements. Ready for it. Yeah. OK. Thank you. Good afternoon. And thank you for attending today and such a short agenda. We only have one case looking forward to next month. We are already looking at three certificates of appropriateness and one land use amendment case. There could be additional discussion items added to the agenda. One of the things that we could potentially do as a commission in workshop session after completion of the meeting is to discuss a forthcoming joint meeting between the commission and the city council. We don't need to do that in May. We could do that in June. But the joint meeting is tentatively scheduled for August 28th at 1.30. The purpose of that joint meeting is for this commission to meet and discuss with the city council all matters pertaining to historic preservation. whether that is language in the Comprehensive Plan or language in chapter 16 of the land development regulations. There was a meeting three years ago, and at that time it was decided to have a three year period and then come back and have another joint meeting. So if there are issues that you think are reoccurring or need to be addressed maybe a little more deeply in the code language based on your experience here out in the community that is something that I would ask you to consider now and bring that to our attention as staff so that we can properly prepare materials ahead of that joint meeting to help your discussion with the council members. And if you like, we can schedule a workshop after the meeting next month. We would adjourn the public hearing and then immediately just transition into a workshop discussion if that is helpful to you. Or we can schedule that at a later date. I have a question about that. So I wasn't here three years ago, and so is it possible? Was that meeting recorded? And is it possible for us to either be sent the minutes or perhaps even, you know, the recorded meeting that we can watch back and see kind of what those topics of conversation were so we can prep even for next month's workshop to watch that beforehand. We'll have Ms. Wynn email you a copy of the report that was prepared. Okay. The report had a lot of backup material. Okay. Kind of setting up each issue discussion items. So we will have that report email doubt to you. That would be great. Thank you. Some months ago I had given the commission a number of recommendations regarding what might be done to further enhance historic preservation in the city. If we could have that those recommendations sent out to the commission again I'd appreciate it. Of course. We'll include that in the same email in the earlier packet. Perfect. One of the other things I wanted to just mention, some of you have worked with Liz Abernethy over the years, and she is in her retirement right now. So we still have her for a couple more weeks of work in the month of May but she'll be officially retired. So there has been some discussion about our department, how that might look afterwards and so the city and the administration is still working on reorganization of the department and leadership and so we'll have an update for everybody shortly on what that might look like. Preparing for historic preservation month in May, I did want to let you know we did send out an invitation to all the neighborhood associations that include a part or in whole national register and local historic districts. So our invitation was to come out and meet with the association and give historic preservation specific presentation. We haven't received any responses or invitations back yet, but of course we were targeting historic preservation month but it is an open invitation. So whether you received an invitation or you're just watching the meeting today, we are prepared to come out to any neighborhood association at any time of the year and give a presentation on all aspects of the Historic Preservation program, whether it is incentives or regulatory understanding of how the code is set up. Finally I'll mention that our department continues to monitor state legislation so obviously they're in session right now. April 22nd, I believe is the 50th day of their session, all the committee meetings will be coming to a close. And so at that point, we'll have a better sense of what bills might still be active. And then the session closes 10 days later on the 60th day. And so we're just continuing to monitor that that whether there are planning related issues or preservation issues there are a number of planning and zoning issues that we are monitoring right now So we will be able to report back to this commission and update whether that is through maybe some written correspondence by email or we can give a presentation at the future meeting in May or June. But that concludes our updates for you right now. Thank you. I think that that would be really great after session ends to have a workshop on what does go through with this session. Okay. Quick question. The invitations that were sent to the neighborhood associations were they emailed or mailed, physically mailed out. It was email invitations to Downtown Neighborhood Association, Historical Northeast Neighborhood Association, Historic Kenwood, Uptown Rosa Park, and then we also had included community services for distribution and there if there were other associations that they were familiar with that might be interested they could be routed through their office as well. Okay, thank you. You brought up several months ago, one of the house bills, I guess, that was approved. And if I understood it correctly, it limited reduction in zoning or something is that, do I have that right and do you remember which bill that was? I think I know what you're referring to. So following the hurricane impact at Fort Myers, there was a prohibition for a period of time on land development regulations that were determined to be more restrictive. And there was a perimeter buffer around the landfall point within which that rule applied. We were within that original buffer. And so for a period of time, we were communicating that to the public because we were under that restriction. That has since gone away and we are not under that fort Myers-related emergency action. OK, thank you. There is a new bill in the legislature right now that is being considered that does come back into a restriction on land development changes following a emergency storm impact. And so that is one of the bills that we are monitoring right now. Thanks. Great. All right. Does anybody, do you have any more updates in them? Does anyone else have any updates or announcements? They'd like to share. OK. All right. Well, thank you all, and we are adjourned. you I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. 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