Good evening and welcome to the historic District Commission meeting number nine-2012. My name is Craig Maloney. I'm the chairman. I'm joined this evening with by commissioners Rob Ockmeyer, Joe Hanson and Anita Neal Powell and staff Rob and Zeke and Jim Wusleck. We just came from a closed session where we discussed the agenda but no decisions were made. This is my quirky. Can you all hear me? We also had a meeting on these new facilities or wonderful new surroundings. I'd also like to recognize Commissioner Anitaed and Neil Powell for her long service on this commission. She's just volunteered for another three years and thank you very much for your dedication. You're welcome. The first thing under our agenda this evening is committee and organization reports. First up is peerless rockville. Thank you very much. I'm Mary Thun Balgoi, Executive Director of Peerless Rockville, and I just want to tell you about a couple of upcoming events. This Saturday from 9 a.m. to 1 p.m., please look for Peerless Rockville at the farmer's market. We will be there as part of a salute to Rockville nonprofits. Come by to say hello to us, find out more about us, and purchase one of our tote bags. I always have to bring a prop. And I hope the camera can see this for $5. This is a great item to carry your market goods. can carry a lot and support us, of course, at the same time. On Sunday, you can join Pierla's for a walking tour of F. Scott Fitzgerald's Haunts as part of the F. Scott Fitzgerald birthday celebration in town square. The celebration begins at 1 p.m. in features music, film, arts and crafts, lectures, and of course, our walking tour. We'll be giving two tours, one beginning at 1.30 p.m. and the other at 3 p.m. The tour begins in front of the Rockville Library and the entire event is free. And then on Saturday, September 29th, that's the following Saturday from 10 a.m. to 1 p.m. Peerless Rockville will host an open house for the public to explore mantra school or historic two-room schoolhouse built in 1909 by the Rockville Pike. The last open to the public in 2009, the open house will give visitors an opportunity to learn more about the history of this school as well as the history of public schools in Montgomery County. The school is located at 5721 Montrose Parkway and visitors can reach the school by entering Montrose Crossing Shopping Center essentially if you go to giant over there or old navy, you'll find us. Just follow the signs up the road and there's the school. This event is also free. For more information, you can visit our website at peerlessrockfield.org or call us at 301-762-0096. Any questions? Thank you. This is very impressive. I must say the new digs. Makes us feel important. Next up is Lincoln Park Historical Foundation Commissioner. Good evening Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission we do not have a report tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Next for Committee and Organization report is the Montgomery County Historical Society and the National here for the Montgomery County Historical Society this evening. No. At this time we'd like to open it for public comments, open forum if there's anyone that would like to address the commission, this is your opportunity. This is not related to an item on the agenda. You're welcome to speak during that period also, but if there's other items you'd like to bring before that period also but if there's other items you'd like to bring before the commission please feel free to come forward. Okay, seeing none. Any HTC Commissioner comments? Anything you'd like to comment on? I have no comment, Mr. Chair. Yes, ma'am. Please speak up. I have no comment, Mr. Chair. Yes, ma'am. Please speak up. I have no comment, Mr. Chair. Your comment is no comment. That's correct. I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you clarified that for us. Staff comments. Do we have any staff comments this evening? I don't have any. I have. There are quite a few discussion items, but we'll catch that at the end of the meeting. Okay. Thank you. Next up on our agenda is the consent agenda. We have the minutes from our June 21st meeting and our July 19th meeting on our consent agenda. Are there any comments regarding those minutes? Does anyone want to pull either of those off the consent agenda? Seeing none, does anyone want to make a motion regarding consent consent agenda. I move to approve the consent agenda. Is there a second? Moving second, is any comments? Discussion? All in favor? Hi. Chair votes aye. Next on our agenda is the evaluation of significance for the purpose of demolition. The first is HTC 2013-00595. The applicant is RCG development LLC. The address is 11G development LLC. The address is 114 Crab Avenue. And this is an evaluation for the purposes of demolition. Is there a brief staff report on this? Yes. I'll just provide a very brief summary of the research 114 Crab Avenue. And this is an aerial view. These properties were not part of the city till 1949, but they were plotted in 1926. And I guess one of the interesting things is that they were, they were your typical 50 foot wide lot, but they were extremely deep. And we've always said it was, you know, people could, you know, farm or have chickens on the lot or whatever. Anyway, it was part, it was still in Montgomery County when it was plated, not the city. But the property that we're talking about, there's the house crosses lot lines for two lots and the adjacent three lots were also purchased by the the family were Norman E and Mary E. Piles, and they bought the property in 1944. It hadn't been built on between the plating in 26 and 44. And I'm sure there's something to be said about the idea that these are the war years. And I think it might be of some interest that it was built in 44 as we're still at that war. But Washington is one of those unusual places where construction did continue during the war, but it was still something notable. But at any rate, the piles lived here, their entire lives. Mr. Piles died in 76. Mr. Piles died in 76. Mrs. Piles died in 2011. And the house is just a one story brick minimal traditional. There have been alterations, porch and windows, some to the siding, rear deck. I believe there was some bit in some enclosures at the rear. And this is the backyard. At this point, the yards is just a meadowed wild. And the fact that they had five lots was as an enormous piece of property, this is the back views. I had been standing in the back taking a photograph of the backyard. I turned and this is the back yards of the three new houses that are being built on there. You know, the lots were sold. And two new houses are proposed if the HCC and everybody agrees that this house really doesn't merit historic designation. And you know, it's certainly just part of the subdivision history of East Rockville, but I don't know of anything notable about the people in particular in terms of contribution to the city per se, and I don't, the House is an example of a ubiquitous style. It has alterations, not a particularly good example at that point. And I'm not recommending designation. Thank you. And I'm not recommending designation. Thank you. Was there any questions, staff? Yes. Is there anyone in the audience that would like to speak to this evaluation? Please come forward. I may introduce yourself in your association. My name is Siegfried Krausev and I'm adjacent to this house. I have a business next door to them, an ordinary page-up. She didn't make the pictures of my shop, but... I think we have the aerial view here. Okay. The only concern I have is for my sake, they can turn down. There's nothing good about that house. Okay, I knew the old people and the sting is flooded in the basement and all that but what I'm concerned about is whoever when they build a new house and they gonna be be bothering me because I'm an out of shop, I'm a business, and they bought a house next to an out of shop. And then they're going to be something that's going to happen, I know that. But they should make it so, when they build a new house that they put trees up, tall trees. They can't see me. And that's all I need to know that you can do that. And that happens. Because other than that, there's going to be trouble for you, me, and for them. Thank you very much. Yeah. I think you're right. Thank you. You're clear of you. You're there before the house. So anyone who buys the house is going to know that you're there. People always do that. I know. And then they come back later and complain about it. Oh my God, I've locked the wrong call. That's true. That's true. There are trees there now. Yeah. But not as much as it could be. We have a good sense of what the new houses will look like based on what the three additions have been. Do the trees that exist now, are they as tall as a two story house or two and a half story house? Some over this drop and some half only. They broke off. Because I don't think the developer will be able to put in a tree that's going to get to be as tall as that house for a little while. Next door to the NIH building and A house, a small house, they will really tall trees there between that house and that NIH building. And house and an NIH building. And it says, highest NIH building. Yeah. So they cannot even see the wall of the NIH building. It's OK. So I like to have trees like that. Oh, OK. I can speak a little more. I wonder if we get some clarification from staff. I know that if the car repair shop came in after the residence was there, that they would have to put a fence and a green barricade. But I don't think it works the on the way around. I don't think that a residence would have to put in that barricade. Is that true? That is correct. If the auto repair was going in, you know, there would be landscaping and buffering requirements that they would be required to provide. But not for this single family home. There are no requirements. Yeah. Interesting. Some we have to consider. I don't think we can make any requirements. certainly of that, but it's something we might want to suggest to the developer. Any other questions or comments regarding this? Anyone else like to speak to this evaluation? Seeing none, is there anyone like to make a motion regarding this evaluation? I'll make the motion to approve to accept the staff recommendations. I don't want to prove. There. For HDC 2013, 595 595. Yeah, you know 2000. Yeah, that's it Third second No second Any discussion Move and seconded so all in favor Hi, all right, I Cheer about time move and seconded all in favor. All right. All right. Chair votes aye. The next item on our agenda is an evaluation of significance is HTC 2013-00598. The applicant is Kamal Bonisotter. The address is 531 West Montgomery Avenue and the request is evaluation of significance for demolition of a garage in tenant building. Do we have a staff report on that? First. Can I make an announcement first? Mr. Chair. Please. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm going to recuse myself from discussion and voting. Is that satisfactory? Absolutely. Could she ask? Okay. Absolutely. Okay. She has. Okay. Okay. Okay. I will just give a very brief staff report. The owner is here just so you know. And 531 West Montgomery Avenue is a very lovely old four square that the property was subdivided in 1889. The house was built, we think, around 1917, something about that, 1917, 1918. And the property consisted of three lots, and then an extra half lot was purchased. So at a certain point, the current owner did a resub division. So now there are two lots. So the house doesn't cross lot lines and the lots are, lot 58 that has the house and lot 57 which has the outbuildings. Now, on LUT 57 has a garage and a, here's the aerial that shows you the, the actual, the four square on the right side of this picture. And the property that's in question because the entire property is for sale now. But there is interest that a new house might be built on the West Lot, which is the subject property we're discussing that has the two outbuildings. So you can see the garage is located all the way in the northwest corner of the property. There is an alley back there at the north end of the property and the garage, interestingly, is double loaded, so you could enter from the alley or you could enter from the driveway. And then the secondary building does show up on sandborne maps from 1949, but I, you know, the house itself is not a Victorian house and this building is an unusual building. It's with the, and it's an altered building and it's now, it's a dwelling. So the applicant is asking in the interest of being able to sell the property for construction of a new house that these outbuildings would be demolished. And that's what they're coming here for your consideration for these outbuildings only. As I say, this property first shows up on the sandborns in 49. And that's also when this property came into the city before that it was in the county. So this is always sort of at the end of the city, at the city limits. And, you know, there are service buildings to the main property. I did do, did research. The interesting thing about the people, one thing I did find were that the chins who used to live next door moved over to Thomas Street and we have a chin, the chin house over there and we talk about that. But before they moved there they lived adjacent to this house and they sold, they were the ones who sold the half lot, 18 to, so this parcel could be the size it is now. But I did not find any reason to think that this is merit-sisteric designation. It did not in my mind meet any of the criteria. So I'm not recommending it for designation. Okay. Thank you. Is there any questions, staff? for designation. Okay, thank you. Is there any questions, staff? Is there anyone that would like to speak to this evaluation? The audience like to talk about this? Okay, see you know. Any discussion on this? Anyone have any thoughts on the other? Accessory buildings. The accessory building footprint is coincident with the 1949 sandborne map. It looks like it's been seriously modified since then. It's not, there's nothing, no significant fabric that's left of this building. Well the interesting thing about the sandborns is that it notes that it's two story. It labels them for as garage, as an auto house for garage. And I would say, you know, it's an unusual thing to have a two-story garage. But I can't take it any further. It's not a garage now. OK. Any other discussion on this? Outbuildings would be pretty typical of a house such as this on West Montgomery Avenue. Wouldn't it? Yeah, I mean outbuildings are pretty typical in the sense that when people started buying automobiles, they started building garages and they show up on the sandborns as auto houses. I mean, they used that terminology, which I thought was interesting, but it really just means garage. And prior to that, there were out is that when these buildings, it's more typical in Rockville that the house might have been built and then somebody lived there who acquired an automobile and then they built a garage. So they're not matching but they are of course part of the history of the property. I mean, when they were built more at the same time, more typically they matched. I mean, we see this in other parts of the county when people were to build a garage and a house at the same time quite often they were of a same style. They had the quality and character of a style. Our buildings actually typically are pretty plain and we have a few outstanding 19th century out buildings a few early 20th century. We have still some auto houses the small little garages here and there but you know they're they're really typically small. It's unusual for the size. I noticed on the aerial view as well as driving by that the access to the property from West Montgomery is on the property that this outbuilding would become a part of where to be resubbed divided. I mean it doesn't seem to be like you could really do one without the other given the landscaping that's been done on the property. Well it is true that with our I mean I thought about that too. I don't think that that's a historic question. Right. But I have thought about that because as part of the subdivision or new construction, people are required to be able to park, have at least space for two cars on their residential property. I think the one place this property in particular has flexibility as there is an alley. And so if the topography or they didn't want to, I mean there's quite a lot of landscaping and there's some real topography there on the house lot, you could come in from the alley and provide backyard parking which would be, well but Jim would like to comment. So please. I was just going to say that we have seen instances where there is an easement on the adjacent property that provides for access to both lots so that's a potential solution here if this lot comes in for single family home construction then that easement could be put in place at that time. These are, just to note, these are two record lots. I think the property is resubbed about it in the 1950s, so they can stand on their own as record lots. A lot of houses on West Montgomery do have vehicular access from the alley and none from West Montgomery. That is fairly common. Yeah. Any other comments? Anything else? Anyone want to say anything about this? Adaluation? Please? Come on, guys. anyone like to say anything about this evaluation? Please. Come on, guys. You're recuse. You can't say anything. Please. I'm going to make a motion. Please. Is that a little commissioner or a new panel? I can make a motion. Craig can make a motion. I can make a motion. I can make a motion. That's what we're doing. We like each other. What can we say? I would like to make a motion to accept the staff report on HDC 2013-00598. Staff finds that the outbuildings on the property associated with five three one West Montgomery Avenue do not meet HDC criteria for historic destination and that they are not associated with a significant historic event. Person or pattern of events as detailed in Rockville's historic content and do not exemplify Rockville's architectural or heritage. Thank you. You're welcome. There are seconds. Second. We've been seconded all in favor. Hi. Hi. Chair votes aye. Thank you very much. Good luck. Next in our agenda is a courtesy review, HTC 2012-00596. The applicant is James and Melissa Schaller. The address is 23 Wall Street and they're requested for new construction of a single-family dwelling. Do we have a staff report on this? Yes. Ah, it's on. How do you get used to it? We have this wonderful new equipment and I'm a novice, so we're learning it. So, 23 Wall Street is coming into you for a courtesy review, which serves two purposes. The applicant is a contract purchaser, which means that they want to buy the property, but they want to have some assurance that they're on the same page with the HTC. And therefore, if they may agree, they may not go forward depending upon what they hear. We like to recommend the courtesy reviews for all contract purchasers. I think it gives people a lot of confidence. And then the other reason, of course, is with new construction. We also like to have courtesy reviews for the HDC because it will save applicants time and money to know really what the HDC is expecting and looking for with a new construction in a historic district. Compatibility is the buzzword and it applies on the large scale in terms of siding and massing and on the small scale in terms of materials and design. So 23 Wall Street is in the historic district, the West Montgomery Avenue Historic District. It was always the south side yard to 21 Wall Street, which is a Victorian house associated with Rebecca Veer's who did the subdivision here. And she built a number of houses as a business. And this is one of them. But the side yard, let me see, okay, is here. And it's a lovely piece of property. As a side yard, it has fairly open in the center. It's highly veget open in the center. It's highly vegetated along the perimeter, certainly the south perimeter in particular. This is a view looking towards the standing in the middle of the site looking out towards Wall Street. You can see some of the vegetation, there's a street tree that'll have to come out that is shown on this slide the tree to the left There's another tree that's leaning quite well that it's also recommended that it would come out There are a lot of trees because of the lots only 51 feet wide. The city forest has been involved and the city forest will be involved in new construction anyway. But because the applicant was coming to you today, the city forester provided a preliminary assessment of the trees on vegetation on the property. That was provided to the commission and to the applicant. And really what it shows is that with a 50-51 foot lot, our side yard setbacks are nine feet on either side, and then the house would be, you know, to these standards, you know, with to these standards a modest, modestly scaled house in terms of width. Just given the proportion, the trees will be impacted and that's a given. New construction here on this site will impact all the trees along the south perimeter, which is the adjacent property perimeter to the house and historic district immediately to the south of this. This is what they're proposing as a site plan layout. The driveway is put, suggested on the north side, between 21 Wall Street and 23 Wall Street. And in part, that was because they were very few trees. If any, well, there's none along the side, but there's two in the back where they're proposing to put their garage. But the drive-o is sighted on the north side to minimize impact to the trees, but nevertheless, there will be impact to the trees. So this is the sighting, which meets the setbacks, and with a separate garage, I'll just run through. This is the front elevation proposed. They have a, it's sort of a, you know, I don't want to say a kit or a standard design that they're going to modify to the site. And this is the general, the front elevation. It's got a two-story porch and the front door all the way on the one side. And this is the back elevation. And this is the side, the side derivations. And this is the garage. They're proposing a one car garage in the northwest corner. And this is just a summary of what the City Forester inventory said. I provided this, of course, to the HTC and to the owners. The City Forester is noting that it's extensive based on the caliber that they would have to provide 11 trees and the way we work in the city with development, they provide a fee, they pay about $1,500 per tree. It's an extensive amount. The city's not in favor of removing trees. On the other hand, the city recognizes that with new development that often happens. We have this process that allows continuity of our overall tree canopy in the city so that trees will be planted. In this case, the fees used for street trees to replace street trees in the city. And that's that. I know the owners are proposing to plant least two trees on the property just because they, you know, that's one of the things they'd like to see. And I am happy to, you know, scroll through these photos as you want to talk about anything in particular. My recommendation, just some of the things that I picked out, you know the materials are going to be substitute materials for the most part, but ones that the city has approved, use of, for example, Hardy Plank, which is a fiber cement board. We have approved that on new construction and on rear additions. And we've approved it because it can be applied like wood. It can be painted like wood. It goes on like wood, that kind of thing. So that with a smooth board finish, it has an appearance of new wood. They are asking to come in with the thermal-eglaze windows, the clad windows. I just wanted to note that clad windows are not always the best choice because moisture can get behind the cladding and then the windows can rot out. Now whether that happens every time, whether that happens quickly, I just need to note that, but it's a product that's certainly highly used. We're just suggesting not vinyl clad vinyl never has a look of wood, it never, it just never, if anything we we'll say aluminum, which can be painted if you want to, you don't have to, and that wood windows are always an option. But they are looking at a vocabulary of substitute materials, but substitute materials in the in the in the new or vein that are sort of very similar to the hearty plank that have density that have sort of this one borrel true exterior trim is a polymer with ash. Now I've not exactly seen it, but I did look and it seems like you know barely reasonable substitute material, but know, the commission may have questions. The other thing I commented on was I really didn't think that a chimney should not ever be clad with a wood looking material in the sense that a chimney is or are supposed to be fireproof. So what I made a recommendation that, again, they can use a masonry, a thin set masonry material that will give the appearance of a masonry chimney. If they're worried about, they were worried about the footing and excavating more because they didn't want to disturb the soil for more tree roots. And I think that these applicants, they are concerned about the trees. They do want to build a new house. It's obviously there is a tension and a contradiction here. I think that's really it. They're here. They want to hear your questions. And I think that's it. Okay. Thank you. And I think that's it. OK. Thank you. Any questions or staff? Is there anyone that would like to speak to this application? Or I'm sorry, courtesy review. You could introduce yourself. Good evening. I'm Jake Schaller, and this is Melissa Schaller, my wife. And we just first of all like to thank everyone for seeing us and we'd especially like to thank Robin and Jim. They've been extremely accommodating and they've kind of worked with us to really make sure that we were prepared with our application that we are kind of crossing all of our teas and dotting our eyes. And I hope that they have seen from us a real willingness to work with them and also work with the neighbors. We've contacted the Lugin Bills who live at 25 Wall Street right next door. We've been over to their house and kind of chatted about what we want to do. They're very concerned about the Holly tree along the border and we're going to save that one. And so we're trying to work with the people in the neighborhood and we realize that this is a historic district neighborhood, but also a neighborhood from everything that we've heard that's very tight knit and people have a lot of pride in the neighborhood. And so we absolutely don't want to disturb that and we want to add to that. And we think we can do that. This house is going to be a great addition if you allow it to be built. The builders here with us tonight, it's my father-in-law, Ralph Malay. He is the owner and president of M&M Builders, which just has a sterling reputation in Maryland Montgomery County. He was a former president of the Montgomery County Builders Association, and everything that will be done, if you allow this house to be built, will be done first class. And the only other thing I'd like to mention before, we'd be happy to answer any questions about materials or anything is, I hope that people in the neighborhood will understand that, again, we're not trying to disrupt anything. We're trying to add to this neighborhood and it's not just going to be a physical structure that's coming. The neighborhood's also going to be getting a family, my wife and I, two and a half year old son, our dog, hopefully some more kids. We would really love to be part of this neighborhood, so we're open to any questions that you all have. Great. Thank you. Thank you for coming in. Sure. It's a very complete application, and we really appreciate your effort in this. We're excited. Great. Great. I know I have a few questions about the site and the materials, but I first want to throw it up and maybe you know the commissioners if you have any comments or questions. I just have a quick question. What is your timeline? What we would like our timeline to be would be getting, you know, this certificate of approval from you guys within, you know, the next 30 days or so, and then getting the permit process going. We've talked to storm water management public works. We've talked to everybody, and we think we could probably get permits in a month or two. So if we could get up to two months, we'd say maybe like January one start building, and my dad was thinking maybe four to five months for actual construction. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Just to that question, I still have to approve of if we approve the courtesy review. That would be at the next meeting. Right. That would be a month from. Oh, is that how it goes? Yeah. I didn't understand that. Okay. Just so you know. Okay. So we come back at the next meeting. If this is approved, show you everything one more time, and then that's when we get a certificate. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You see enough? Thank you. Do you think I'm going to go forward? All right. I have a couple questions. The two story porch is atypical to the architecture in Rockville. Is that something that was a design element from the get go? Is that something that you... It is. It's something that we... When we had talked about building a house and I think I told Robin and Jim this at a meeting we had a couple weeks ago, I sort of said, I want my porch, and he wanted his Notre Dame doorbell, I joke, because that's what he says he wanted. But I just, we have been on a couple of occasions where we stayed in homes like this, and historic areas, down south, and they had the porches like this, and we just loved it so much and it's sort of something sentimental to us and Something we would really love to have on our house. It's not a huge porch. It's small and scale We wanted to keep it small so it wasn't you know cumbersome or overly large and looking out of place I guess that's my answer is that is that is something that we we really liked and and wanted to do from the beginning. And just the staff comment about the wood clad along the chimney. Is that something that I know 25 Wall Street does have it? Yes. And the remainder of the houses on Wall Street don't, I believe. OK, I'm not sure about the lives house. I don't remember if they have wood on the chimney or not. So the reasoning, again, and I think that Robin mentioned this. So we want to save the holly tree and any other trees along the side between us and the Lugen bills. So we have to cannel either the fireplace. We don't have a choice. Just meaning that it's going to come kind of out of the house and straight up so there's no foundation. Because there's no foundation, we can't put brick on it, real bricks, because it's too heavy, which I'm sure you guys understand. I'm kind of learning through all this also. So she was talking about perhaps doing a thin brick, which, I guess that's a possibility. I know there are also imitation stone products that might be a little more muted or something because there won't be any other brick on the house anywhere. Obviously, this is our first choice also for cost. I think it's about $4,000 even to do the Fin brick. And at this point, with all the tree fees that we're paying, every dollar counts because it's like $20,000 in tree fees that we weren't expecting. And I think also that we've been told the thin brick cracks and separates. It can. Not in every case. Yeah. My dad has put it on a couple houses and where it has done that. So that was one of his concerns when we were talking about thin brick. Okay. If I can interject, the basement plan that you submitted to us does show a foundation underneath the fireplace? Oh, it shouldn't. Oh, maybe an initial one? OK, the architectural drawings will not do not show a foundation under the fireplace. The initial drawing may. There is 10, 19. If that's the, oh, you're right. Wow. You're right. That's incorrect. There's no foundation. There's not supposed to be a foundation of the fireplace. I don't know why he did that because you can even tell that it's cantilever looking at it there. I don't know why the architect did that. And on the side, the left elevation, you can see that it's cantilevered on 10-17. So I'm not sure why. Yeah, on the front of the rear elevation, it actually does show a foundation in the fireplace. The rear does? The front of the rear elevation. Oh, they do? Yeah. 10-14 to 10-15. So it's a wood burning fireplace for? Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah. The hardy plank is, you guys probably know, it's actually a concrete material, but okay, that is hard to see. That would be correct, and it's not. The architect knows it's supposed to be Cand, the red oak as being co-owned. Is that co-owned with the lumen bills? Yes. And we have talked to them about that tree. We met them out of the lot. And they said, I know there was hesitation by them initially when this lot was first on the market that they didn't want that tree taken down. They've since changed their minds and said that they would be okay with it if it had to happen. The concern is you know if we cut into the roots we're probably going to kill anybody who builds on that lot will end up killing that tree. Do you want you know if you're thinking of a tree as a capital I, do you want the bottom part of the eye? Cut off, probably not. Just because at some point it probably is going to fall. And taking that down costs of six trees, it's not something we want to do. I love trees. We live on a huge, what a lot right now. But I don't think it's a safe thing to keep it in here. Our arborist from Savitri are engineer. That is a certified arborist or at least. They thought it all needed to come down. Yeah, I think the Lugan Bills, as I mentioned, they're most concerned with that holly. That's the one that provides kind of the most shade and the most separation between the two lots. And Robin mentioned that we had planned to, or hoped to plant two trees on a lot. Another thing that we thought because that's co-owned, we were going to propose to the Lugan Bills if they would allow us to plant a tree along the side there, or even on their lot, we would be happy to do that if they would want that as kind of a stopgap measure, but we would be happy to plant as many trees on both of our lots as we can Regarding the trees the city forest are put together a list. I don't know if you have that. Yes. And there's some discrepancy on this list as to whether the trees are to be saved or removed. Sure. I'll explain it because it is a little bit confusing. So the first section of the list, all the way from, you know, company or common name, all the way to remove and save, that was done by our engineer that we had to hire to do a tree-save inventory and a natural resources inventory, like a tree-save plan. So that was all done by our engineer, totaling everything to $25,000. Then, Alissa and Paula, I think, went out to the lot. And they filled in the replacement required and the forestry comments. So this is actually the result and what we need to pay attention to. Some of what our engineer thought, I guess, was not completely correct. So this is the correct stuff from the city of Rockville, the two right columns. So some of the trees that your forests are said to remove are being saved, in fact. Yes. I think our engineer kind of was airing on the side of giving us the bigger number just so we wouldn't be shocked. And I think, you know, he wanted to say if there was any possible chance that a tree is in the area, then let's just count it. And just in case. And then once the city foresters came in, they said, no, some of these are okay. Cool. Okay. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that. Yes. So, yeah, one of the things that you'll be coming back to us with is a complete forest tree, forest stand elimination. Yeah, yes. And our forest trees are being saved. Our arborist, the engineer who's our arborist, knows we just didn't realize that this was due for this meeting. It's not. And so we'll have it next time or whatever. So he had gotten this to at least. Just so you guys had an idea, at least. Yeah, sure. What we're dealing with. On your site plan, if you take any of your site plans, like 10-8, the fireplace is not shown on that left side that is a south side of the building, but there is a bay window. Yes, that has been removed. So when I first gave this, when I first gave this to Robin, it was August 6th. I think is the day that I dropped it off. And then when we started getting the real architectures are architect thought we should remove that just for space on the side and you know kind of privacy and stuff. So we did take that bay window off on that left side there. And the fireplace, you know, should be on there, but it it will be can't leave it again. Got it. Yeah, I would be a little hesitant to put that synthetic stone or something like that on a Candleaver structure. Unfortunately, it did have a foundation that would be fine, but not too sure about doing that on the camera. I agree, and I think my father agrees as well. So if there's any way we could do it like this, I know it may not be the norm, but I know it is safe, and I know that the lumen bills have something similar next door. And it is further toward the rear of the house. It may not be as obvious, so I'm a little bit better about that. Is that going to be, oh, it's a wood burning, everyone? Regarding the exterior materials, what is the foundation? There is some exposed foundation below your weather board there. Yes, it's a concrete, a poured concrete foundation. That'll be a brick texture. Yeah, kind of, you know, they kind of press in a brick look to it, I think, is that right? Like a molded brick sort of little look. So it's not the slab of concrete. It'll be painted to match the house and everything. It's not going to be a nasty looking, you know, concrete block around the bottom of the house. I can put stone on it if you'd like. You know that would look a lot better. Stone? Yeah. Alright, done. Do some pedics on that. Do a smooth concrete. And actually put some pedics on on that. Okay. Sure. I don't know how much that's going to cost me. I don't know what that that's gonna cost me. I don't know if that's gonna cost me. I'll have to wheel and deal with my dad for it. If that's your problem, done. And Ralph said that we're planning to do that on the front anyway, underneath the porch. So that shouldn't be a problem and do it all the way around. Yeah, if you could. I think that the real cause,'t, doesn't honestly look good. Not the prettiest thing, right? Conquery. Brick era stone it is then. The siding. I think I saw in here with cedar wood. Hardy plank. Yeah, I mean, it's a cedar wood texture. Oh, is that right? Careful about that. The problem with fake wood grain is that it, well, looks like fake wood grain. And if your wood actually look like that, you'd be concerned because no wood has that much texture to it. So you really may want to consider a smooth grain side. Yeah, he has a couple samples. I hear familiar, but they might know. This is called Cedar Milk. It's actually milked, I mean, molded from the true seed. Yeah. And they were saying smooth. I didn't know if they meant smooth untouched or smooth like aluminum cyanide. Already makes it product. But it's not like if this product repainted with 15-year warranty, we get the other product with the smooth and the fine mold. We get the other product would be smooth, it would be fine, both. We paint it in the field and carry it over. And we end up looking at the moon. That's what the moon is actually. It has two attached. And this comes in the moon. There's no color. Yeah. I would be very hesitant to recommend a, I think, a wood grain texture on that. I routinely use party board, but they're smooth, lap-siding. They also make a beaded siding. It comes pre-pronged, pre-finished. So you don't have to go with their cedar finish. No, they've actually got a new system, I understand for that. So as of last year. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Generally, if I could talk about it, I'd be sure to come in. Okay. I think we look a lot better, a lot more authentic, without the fake wood grain on there. So, is that something you might want to consider? Same thing with your trim. I don't know whether your trim has got a fake wood grain on it, but you might want to consider a smooth trim as well. Do you want to show him the borrower? He has the fly ash that you can see. It's smooth. Down the street at the corner of Rockville and the corner of Wall Street and West Montgomery, that house is putting a addition on the back. Yeah, that garage looking okay. They're using a similar product and Craig's recommendation was at the same time this if it looks like old wood. It looks like old wood. So it has texture to it? No, it does not have texture to it. Okay. Do you know what that's hardy? Just so I can get I haven't seen it smooth. I know. I can turn it out. Yeah. It's a pretty cool comic. The nice thing about the hearty trim, you have to drill to nail. Oh, yeah. The flip system to apply, which is really complicated. This does. Oh, dad. It's very, very hard to get a flip system. It reforms exactly like wood, you know, in every way. Just as those versatile text which is synthetic PVC, that's a composite, this is not. And then natural wood painted basically looking exactly the same as that. Do they make a profile trim as well? Boral? Yeah, like a... Even like crown molding? Crown molding or... Not as a... Not as of yet, but it's in the process, apparently. And so are some larger profiles. I mean, they're... I think they're actually slated to come out next month with the one by 16, as opposed to the 468, 10 and 12. So they're working for that, because it's becoming very popular, because of the way the product performs. It doesn't expand and contract. The diversity, unfortunately, as nice as that PVC product is, it does expand and contract tremendously. So you have to glue the joints so that it won't expand and contract. But this performs exactly like wood. That's the nice thing. This is wood. That is wood. That's wood. That's wood. You want to read you your house at that one, right? Yeah. So what do you, what do you plan to use on like a versatile tax for the bed and all the other things? We can do that or we can do the borrow. I think I'm going to prefer the borrow only because it really performs more truly like wood. It seems to be, I think it would be more of a historic touch if you use this product. And because it performs like wood doesn't expand and contract, it just seems like it might be the better choice. But we have no opposition to the worst of texts at all. No, I'm saying for the crown molding bed molding. For crown moldings, we'd be using a synthetic, it would be, I think of the manufacturer. It's probably HB&G, the, the crown of standard crown, three and five eights or four and five eights crowns. There's, they make a bed molding and a rake molding that we would probably apply in, you know, gables and things that nature just depends on what we come up with architecturally as we refine what we have right now. Okay. We can do anything and we have a recommendation award once it makes it easy enough to go in that direction. Sure. I think you got the right idea. I'm all in favor of maintenance for your exterior. Yeah, I'm trying to, you know, the porch rails was another visual. Yeah, that was another question I had for you. What do you plan to use for the porch rail? Planning on using a, it actually has a wood substrate, but it has a PVC skin. I can show you, I'll be in the catalog. I'd like to see. In general, I have a problem with that. This is a non-contributed resource in historic districts. So we have approved synthetic plaid rails in cases like this. So I think it's probably fine. You would want to submit the product data when you can come in your room. I can do that. And I have that info. And it looks exactly like the old Euro historic porch rail. There's no architectural difference. If I would take a cross-section, you wouldn't know the difference. But it performs better because it has that PVC cladding. It essentially cuts and screws and nails exactly like the Woodcloth does though. But it doesn't rot away in five years. Well, the columns, what are the columns made out of? Again, we would, there are going to be structural. So what we'll probably do is probably going to be termostructed posts, and then we'll do a wrap of some sort. And I'd like to do a, you know, an authentic wrap, something that looks like a true wood column, it could be fluted or not fluted We're proposing in this architecture for it to be not fluted But again, it would probably be like a versatile text rap All right, are you using 22 Wall Street as a general? Maybe I'll go where columns the bung below the bungalow cross I like that house. I got the square columns in the Yeah, I think it'll be very some of the detailing. Yeah, nice looking house. We don't really follow anything. Yeah, this is pretty much. Because these feel similar in structure to those. I was seeing with the two level. The columns. Okay, we can look at those. And this is a tin. This is a press 10 roof over the entry way? Over the entry right? Yeah, right. Yeah, standing seat metal. Standing seat metal. Like a pre-finished metal or something? Yeah, we wouldn't be using copper just because it's, you know, it's just a small space. And it plus it doesn't really do the, do justice when it wears and it gets that green patina so we would do something pre-finished. No pack clad product or something. Um 22 Wall Street also has the press metal. They do, okay. Over there front, the portico. Okay, I'll look at that. Regarding the front elevation, would you consider eliminating one of those roof lines? One of the roof lines? Yeah. Oh. You've got a triple roof line on the front elevation, triple gable. Oh, there it is. That is the middle gable, could be eliminated. Well to simplify the shape and form and actually would complement the entry well more. I mean I guess I'm okay with it if architecturally it's okay. The problem is so that middle roof line when it comes down that is two feet in front of the front door and two feet in front of those top two windows. It is an actual depth change in the house there. No, but I was looking at the floor plan and it's a closet. Would implac your closet space a little bit by about two feet? Do you know how important that is? I was afraid of that. Those are both my closets. I'll just let you know because one that is? Those are both my clients. I'll just let you know, because one was not large enough. Now you're going to make me chop it. Oh, right there. So you just do like that. And then there's a bathroom below. Let me see. Yeah, I see it's not in the bathroom below. It's just, apparently, just is an overhang on the bathroom below. Let me see. Yeah, I see it's not in the bathroom below. It's just apparently just is an overhang on the second floor. It's not, it's only on the second floor. I mean, I like it a lot like that. I have to. It's much more significant looking house. And we actually complement they would emphasize the two-story porch, which I kind of like, actually. I think it's amazing. Thank you. the two-story porch, which I kind of like actually. I think that's an interesting reason. And we'd also further emphasize the front door. Make that more of an important element. Now, we can actually remove the gavel. And not where you're talking about the gavel and the bump out. Because the gavel can be removed. And the bump out would have to be removed. It could be a remain part of a step forward for the first rate. Oh, yeah. removed, it could be a remaining part of a step forward through the first reef. Oh yeah, we could remove that metal roof line. The roof line could come out altogether and that whole, that, that section that's actually pushed forward two feet to go away. And, and then the portion below that, you just create the same metal roof. The same metal roof, sloping back slightly further than what the forward roof does, so that you'd get an image that's similar to where you see it breaks at the front door on the lower level. eliminate. Just so I'm I'm clear it appears that what you're talking about is something like this and then this would go away you guys can come in and then this would go away as well. That's correct. So then this roof here we just go straight across there. No, that would remain that would remain. Yeah, it's just the and then this would extend up to there. No, this I'm not even talking about. And then this would go away. And then this would go away. Yeah, I'm talking about that. Remaining. Maybe I should I'm talking about this. This remaining this going away. This going like this. Oh please. Be this a complex. You know, you know, don't, don't do it. Yeah. Yeah, Diaz actually this this creates an element to further emphasize this as the front door. You see this means complexity and this is actually somewhat lost as a result. So this, this, this, what actually, exactly this creates an element which causes the front the wall. This goes away and all this goes away. So that's fine with me because it's a lot easier to build. It is. It's not you just look at it with her because it excuses your closet. But that's all right. We can figure out a closet somewhere. We'll figure out a closet somewhere else. Somewhere else. Robin, are you OK with us? We're taking this out. We're going to put a closet somewhere else there. And in allowing this, in allowing this face here to just run back into this, which means that they're exact. That's yours. I'm OK. OK, I have to go to a separate room. My daughter's She gets my bill for building this house. She will be hugging Yeah, no, but This is it will yeah, this is a good recommendation. I Question This is a good recommendation. Okay, Robert. Question. Can we, when they finish redesigning or adding, can we then put it on that new piece of the idea? We have cool new technology. We can actually show anything. Anybody can see what we're doing. Are you ready? Are you ready? I'm so ready. Okay. I can't wait to see doing. Are you ready? Where are you ready? I'm so ready. I can't wait to see this whole thing. You are allowing us to use our new technology. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Oh, that looks terrible. So now explain it. So the idea then is that the San E.C. metal roof extends all the way across to your front porch, your two-story porch. And then that second, third gable there is eliminated over top of the between the two cables. That is the cable over the front porch and the cable of the main house. It gives you an opportunity to further emphasize that double windows there. In fact, I don't know whether that's something you want to do. Yeah, it looks centered, it gives it context. I think it looks better. I think it also matches some of the elements of the style of the houses in the area with sort of a two gable. Okay. Yeah. What? We'll figure out the closet. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Do you have room in your house? I'll bring my shoes back. No problem. Okay. Can I have that back? Good. Alright. We'll get to use your new technology. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And some other really windows. I know you're looking at Anderson windows. I like Anderson windows. I think they're great. They are vinyl clad. I don't think they make a lune clad. The problem with the vinyl is that they cannot get a sharp edge with their vinyl. It always looks like it's curved and while they may be very good for weathering, it does it look like the real thing, it doesn't look like the sharp edge that a woodwind that would have. So what we've recommended is a aluminum plate window because they can get a sharp folded edge on the cladding So that's something I want to think about is going with an aluminum clad window. I see a lot of Mullins here. There's 6 over 6 double-hungs and encasments and and a lot of French doors. Those grills should be read on the exterior. So one thing you might want to consider is a bonded grill. Don't recommend true-divided light, but a simulated-divided light which has got the grill bonded to the The one that is not a true divided light without having the expense and hassle of a true divided light. Does somebody might want to consider? I think, yeah, what we probably originally were looking at, I mean, obviously windows in the house of this nature are probably one of the most expensive products. And so we're trying to meet the historic significance and blend that with the cost that's involved, as far as budget is concerned, because so many on this, I'm seeing expenses that we are encountering. So there are some number of windows we could entertain that have a, that our STO have that bonded grill, a aluminum clad, Lincoln makes a window that's a nice, it's a wood window, but again a aluminum clad, as the bonded grill, you can get it with the space bars, you can get it without the space bars, more expensive with the space bars, so we can entertain a number of things I think. Okay. We'll go ahead and get to the research. It's all I have. The driveway that goes that will go along the north side. Is that going to go right to the property line? It has to because I'm under the impression that a driveway has to be 10 feet. Like that's the regulation and that's our setback. It's the whole 10 feet. So it will be right up there. We do it on that side as Rob and I think mentioned in the report because I don't want, yeah, the crazy other side. It's really our only choice. The way that the city or the Lays divided the bulkhead for 21 Wall Street is like right on the property line. Yeah, the Bilko door. Yeah. It might be a little over a few inches. I don't think it's over, but it's just probably within Within inches. I mean you couldn't walk you couldn't step out of that bill code with our stepping on to onto the property. Yeah, okay. All right, hopefully they're nice people. I guess the question comes into play if the lot is fenced at some point what the issue would be for them to have egress to that bill call. I mean I don't know how this, I mean it was just a razor thin margin that they were able to find. So. And give the proper setbacks. Yeah. Right. I mean I don't know how they. Yeah. Okay. Give me other comments. Thank you. That's all I have. So just so I understand we'll make the changes on the architecturals with everything and then come back for next month's meeting. Look at everything again. Okay, we're good and then we would do a certificate. That's it. Okay. What's great, nice house. Great, thank you. Great, thank you. The redesign. Yeah. You're starting to grow on us already. On him. On him. Maybe not her. Thank you all very much. Yeah, we appreciate it. Thank you. Is there anyone else I would like to speak to this? Please come forward. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission. I'm Jim Byte, all I live at 11 Wall Street. And I would say that this is going to be a wonderful addition to the neighborhood. As far as porches you're talking about are concerned. Right next door at 25 Wall, the Lugan Bills of course have a second story porch over their entrance and so where they put their Christmas tree most every year. So this will match the house next door and it looks like it will match very nicely the house next door. It certainly is a much nicer addition than the conversion that was made at 21 Wall Street. So I look forward to having a nice young family in the neighborhood and a nice addition to the neighborhood. Thank you. Great. Thanks. Anyone else? Yes, please. Hi. Good evening. I'm Chen Yu. I'm the owner of the 21st Street, of Wall Street, 21 Wall Street. Actually, I like your design a lot, hopefully, and hopefully, you know, it looks nice in the future. But just have a couple of questions. I don't quite understand this map. So just like what do we talk about? How far here will between the house and the boundary of the 20th century? Do you mind if I come up here? Yeah, sure. So he's talking about, I guess, the driveway up to his house. So this is 10 feet right here. A driveway regulation is 10 feet in the city of Rockville. So that 10 feet is also the setback regulation in this R-75R-90 zone. So it will go up to where you guys come out of your basement. Yes. It has to go up to there. There's nothing else. So we can do unfortunately. Yeah, so that's one thing, would you mind sometimes if we go out? No, no, you can come out of your basement. It's okay. You can exit your home. No problem. So another thing is we just try to be sure is there any plan to install any fence between or? Well, not on that side. So if we do a fence, which we will do some sort of fence, I believe, down the line because we do have a dog. So the side with the lumen bills over here is already fenced off. And then I think you can see on the right drawing, there a little dash kind of coming off in front of where that bay window that's going to be eliminated. So we just have to do a tiny fence over there, you know, to block our doggy on that side. And then we're not really sure how we're going to do it in the back of the yard, but what we had thought of right now just to minimize the fencing because we don't want to have a bunch of fencing everywhere. It's perhaps have something come across the driveway right here, the started line, and then just a small line right there down the backside just to keep the dog in and to enclose the garage and all of that. So all of yours would still be open there. We just be along our property line. OK, another fundamental question will be because of your design. Because right now, the whole lot with OK condition long. So the driveway is in our side, not the other side. That's a good question, because this side of the house has so many trees on it that we cannot take down, either according to the city, or we don't want to take, if we put the driveway over here, first of all, it's only a nine foot setback actually, so we couldn't, even if we wanted to. If it got grandfathered in at nine feet, still we'd have to raise all those trees, which isn't the best idea in the neighborhood. I mean, so pretty much the Cypress trees in the backyard right now. The two that are right there. Those are the only ones on your side. They would have to be down because of the driveway. No, those are no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, is there any place to put with the patio, I think on the other side, on the south side, is where they'd be? Where would the HVAC be? Is that your question? Yeah. I don't know. Ben? It's going to be at the rear. I mean, there's, we don't have a lot. It's going to have to be at the rear of the property. room to do anything else. I don't know specifically what the city requires as far as allowing HVAC to be on side yards. Montgomery County has some very strict rules about that even when you can't deliver the HVAC on platforms you know that come off the house. So assuming that it's something similar we're just gonna have to find space somewhere in the rear there where that patio is or where that fence comes across there to set our units. The patio is kind of an idea right now or not exactly. Yeah, that's pretty undeveloped at this point. One thing at a time, right? I only ask because they can't be noisy. So if you're putting them next to the patio, I mean, I don't know where else would go. There's not a lot of space on that left side. These units, these units would probably be at least 15 seer. Brian's making units pretty quiet right now. So even though they will make noise, they're considerably more quiet than what you might be used to in reference to an older unit. Right. I know what I have currently in my own home is noisy, but it's an old 11-serie unit that's 15 years old. The only problem, you gain the plus with the quiet unit, but you also have a problem in that the units are about twice the size because the condenser is that much larger. So, you know, we're going to find space for them somewhere back there. Yeah, I don't believe that you're allowed to put them in the setback. Yeah, that's that. We want to avoid that altogether. I think that's just going to be an issue for sure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming in. It's a terrific application. I can go forward with it. Thank you very much. Okay. Next on our agenda is discussion items. We have project updates and follow-up. Right, we have, I wanted to update you on a lot of things we've been working on. One is the tech guides, which has, the landscape tech guide has been identified as really out of date and needing revisions to bring it up to speed with the environmental latest environmental information that the city promotes. And so I'll be working on that and I wanted you to know that that's happening. And also we're coordinating that rewrite. So that's happening now. We're coordinating that rewrite with bringing the energy tech guide to the mayor and council. So they want to bring them together to the mayor and council. So the energy tech guide, which is been through numerous reviews and it's been formatted and it's been reviewed again and it's being tweaked, but it's essentially, you know, as you have approved it, it's just being held at this point. Just so you know that. But we're looking at it before it's released. Can I see that? Can I see looking at it before it's released. Can I see that? Can I see the final document for release? Sure The final both of them yeah sure Absolutely, I think yeah, you know not that we're gonna go back and re-editor And I just want to just confirm that it does say what we hope that would say that I know there've been some tweaks I think probably legal has had some shots at it, but I just want to just confirm that it does say what we hope that would say that I know there have been some tweaks. I think probably Legos had some shots at it, but I just want to make sure that it says what we want to say. Right. Okay. Then the other thing is Victory Court had its ground break opening, ground break. Ground break? Ground break. ground break, ground break, ground break, king, whatever. They took some dirt and shoveled it out. The mayor made a lovely, congratulations speech and Mark Priscilla was there as well, Councilman Priscilla. So that is in our Rockville Heights historic district in the backyard. And we'll, you obviously have seen the forest be removed already and there, it's, there, they'll be building very soon. So that's going to be a change. 104 Jefferson and 300 West Montgomery. The city is now, has been sued. Jim might want to give you a tiny bit of an update. It's actually not a lawsuit, but a petition for judicial review of the Planning Commission's action to one deny the, the plan for the Pumphrey's property and the Planning Commission approved the plan for one of four West Jefferson to create the two lots. I remember you made a recommendation to them several months ago, not in favor of that, but the pathway did make the decision to approve it. So both of those decisions kind of turn on the provision in the zoning ordinance, it talks about resubdivision in existing neighborhood. So it'll be very interesting to see how the court comes down on both of those. So we'll keep you posted on that. Got. Thank you. Do we have a schedule on that? No, it's just at the very early stages. Although I'm thinking now, I think the properties one, the court date is December 7th. So I haven't seen the court date on the Jefferson. Thank you. Then the other thing is that our department, the planning department, is thinking of many ways to celebrate planning month, which is October. And I will rely on all of you to work with me to get our department to work in May for many events for historic preservation month. But October is planning month and one of the things that we're planning to do is to invite the public to take photographs of the best they think of Rockville. What do they think? It's going to be broken up into ages as a competition. And we'll ask, so in the different age groups, to photograph something that you think, this is the best of Rockville. I think it's really an exciting project. And you are invited to select a commissioner to participate on the judging panel. So, you can, anybody want to volunteer now, do you want to talk about it and get back to me? I think it'll be a lot of fun. I think, I think it'll be a lot of funds for commissioner and need a neopowl. She's one of the most excited about this. It's a friendly suggestion. Do I have to say yes? I think it would be appropriate. That's fabulous. Thank you. Anita, I will tell them that Anita Neal Powell will represent the historic district commission, fabulous. Okay. Thank you for the offer. And I'm sure they'll work out, you know, the suitable time that will meet your schedule, that kind of thing. They'll be working with you. We'll contact you. So a judge for photography. It's going to be really fun. I hope it becomes a book, you know, Rockville 2012, as seen from the citizens. I think it's going to be great. Okay, one of the other updates I actually did an introduction, the formal introduction to the Planning Commission on the Heritage Area Amendment and the language to amend the Comprehensive Plan. That formal introduction was presented to the Planning Commission yesterday. And really what we were introducing it to the Planning Commission yesterday. And really what we were introducing it to the Planning Commission so that they can be prepared to hold their public hearing October 10th at 7 o'clock. And that's been advertised. And it's very exciting and we'll gather in from anybody's comments. They were kind enough to have read it already and give us some, found some typos. Thank you very much and lots of, you know, we need eyes on this. We'll, we want it to be completely perfect. And so we're starting to gather comments, but the public record is open, and people are pleased asked to submit their comments. And didn't we think we were gonna ask the HDC to provide comments at the public hearing? So either I can draft a letter or was somebody going to draft a letter to make a formal statement? Did we hear that? Did I dream that? I think it dropped that. It might be happiest moments. Okay, so how about if I draft something just in terms of sort of a formal recognition because it is a public hearing and it'd be nice if one of a commissioner could on October 10th, it'd be nice if one of you could plan to be there. You can. So it's before the planning commission? It's before the planning commission. It will be a Wednesday evening. Okay. So if you could all look at your calendars, get back to me. And in the meantime, I will draft just a brief letter of support. I'm assuming you'll support it. Yeah I think it's great. I can probably do that but I'll confirm and get back to you. Okay and then of course we are working on a letter of recommendation from the historic district commission in support of a nomination of the recent past publication that Terry Lachine with Peerless Rockville has recently published. It's available at Peerless Rockville for $10. It's very useful and it's very useful for us because it provides a start for the 20th century context that we really need here in the 21st century when we're going to be looking at 20th century resources. So the commission was asked to write a letter of recommendation for a prize from Montgomery Preservation Inc. and the commission said yes so we're doing that. And those are my sort of updates. Okay. Any question? Next on the discussion is the tree trimming, tree removal and the tax credit policy. A little bit of controversy surrounding these issues. I wonder if you want to discuss that a little bit. Well, this is being coming up. You want me to just a review, brief review of it. If it's going to go through the, see what you're saying. We have a historic resource at 11 layered, 19th century resource Mayor greens house where there was a New green of course passed away new owner has come in and has Called specifically to ask whether tree pruning was permitted and Indeed everywhere in the city Tree pruning is permitted. The arborist has to be certified by the state. That's a state law. However, we started getting calls because the tree pruning was severe and I have passed asking photographs to the commission tonight. But I wanted to report that I met with the owner and with the city arborist, Wayne Noel, met with us out at the site with the owner and two of her people who helped her with maintenance. The arborist was not there because the arborist was working in Virginia, but she and Wayne talked very thoroughly about what some of the problems were with the job, the pruning job that was done on this street. And it's not that mature trees can't be pruned, but it can be recommended. It, rather to have a limb pruned that default on a house because it's sort of preventive maintenance. But he did point out that the type of pruning where they cut the leaves off meant that they were cutting the nutrition off for the particular limb. So he actually recommended that two more big limbs be pruned off back to the trunk because they're not helping the tree at all at this point. We do recommend tax credits for pruning of mature trees that overhang a house as a preventive maintenance item. I wanted to say that every year the historic district commission will review these applications. You don't have to recommend it, for example. For example, if the owner came in and on this particular property, you would evaluate it and then you would make a recommendation. You don't have to recommend it for a tax credit. But that's what the policy has been to be able to, when you look at it, would you rather the tree fall on the house and then go through and pay insurance to have it rebuilt? Or would you rather have done some preventive maintenance and it is all directed at the historic house. You don't give any tax credits for any pruning or tree removal that is not in proximity to a historic building to threaten that. So it's a very clear line. The other thing that I want to say is that we've talked with the city farester about reviewing tree pruning in the city. They don't do that. They don't want to do that. You cannot do that. You don't have the staff. We don't have the staff. We don't have the staff. What they rely on is the arborists licensing. So the city forester in this case is going to pursue that to make sure that the arborist is licensed in Maryland. Because he, as I say, was extremely critical about the cuts. Not the concept of pruning, but the cuts. And I think that's the story that I had to relate to. Yeah, this is the tree that I think I contacted you about. And they clearly this work was done without the the advisor or review of a certified arborist. An arborist would never allow this extensive and devastating trimming of any tree, particularly a healthy specimen as this was. And the work that's been done to this, well, very likely killed a tree. And that seems to be the ultimate goal is to get rid of the tree completely. Has the owner come in for a tax credit application in this work? The owner, their new owner, she's a new owner. They have brought, they came in last year. And I anticipate them coming in this year. They actually own two historic properties. They have been meticulous about calling me first to make sure what do they have to do that requires HGC approval and what doesn't. I mean, I think that the cases, the intention here is to protect the historic resource, take care of their property. I will note that there's a dead tree on the property. I mean, I don't think that this landscape has been maintained in a sense of that they'll be coming in and taking out a dead tree. We will certify that it's dead. The arbor has already certified it. I mean, I think the intentions are to, they love the house, they love the neighborhood and they are trying to protect it. I, uh, I see, you know, I think part of the, part of the problem is a tree actually protects the building too by providing shade does provide weather protection. I can't understand. The tree provides a damp, because of the shade. Are you talking about shade? Yes. The trees are provide oxygen for us. I mean, nobody's saying the trees. I don't think there's anybody here who will say the trees are not wonderful, but when trees fall down, I also included a picture of a house three doors down when a tree falls on a house. Absolutely true, but this is a perfectly healthy tree. Now, perfectly healthy trees. Well, probably so. Fall down. But that trimming should have been done by an arborist. And clearly, it wasn't done by an arborist. All that decide, I cannot fathom that we would give them a tax credit for destroying the tree. It's up to you. Nobody's, you know, whatever projects will come to you, we will present to you and then you will make your decisions. I mean, that's your job. You can make your, you will make your decisions and then you will justify them and your recommendations will be provided to the county. To the owners of this property submitted tax like this previous spring? Did they submit a, um, might I make a blank in the words? The tax period on the... Yeah, the tax period application for this past spring. Because I feel like I went back and I looked through the records and it looked like they had applied for in the spring a tax credit for tree printing. Right, but they have... But that was for a different tree. Correct. Okay. Okay. I share Craig's concern with this particular job in that you can see from Google Earth you can look at this property and you can see the canopy that this particular tree had. And while it's true, a lot of the canopy did extend over the house. There are lots of turries in Rockville that extend over the house. And I mean, if they were concerned by what happened down the street on West Montgomery, I understand that concern. We have a big tree in our backyard. But it just seems to me, it seems to me that the work that was done here was to avoid what the potential purchasers of 23 Wall Street are going through, which is the proper channels for tree removal if that is necessary. I mean, I'm, I think I said in an email, tell you this looks something like Dr. Seuss would have come up with as a tree. Good analogy, I saw that. Okay. We don't have any control over what's done to trees, particularly contributing resource to our historic landscape in the historic district. Is that true? I mean, we don't have any potential for protecting this resource. Is that true? The rules that we follow are that you have absolutely authority over removal of healthy trees that trees that are hazardous or dead or dying and certified as such by the city farester or certified arborist can be approved for removal by the chief of planning. There isn't anybody in the city that reviews tree or landscape pruning. But as I said, pruning results in killing the tree. It can. It certainly can. It moves like it will. It very may well. It very may well. So we don't really have any potential for protecting the United East or our resources. I actually wonder if that's something we would get. I actually have run into people who were so mad that a commission would not you would not approve removal of a tree that they cut the tree off at 10 feet above the ground pruned it and wiggled their finger in your face. People do strange things. These people were not trying to kill the tree. And what I'm saying is, if the owner got bad advice, she did not cut down the tree. She's not an arborist. If her arborist is not certified, then she was sold a bad bill of goods. If the arborist is certified and still did a bad job, then the state has been sold a bad bill of goods. We rely on certain things. And state certification that an arborist knows how to prune a tree is one of the things you rely on. I have asked the study arborist repeatedly do you want to review well what I've asked is do you want to review removal of trees on private property residential which they don't do and he said no they do not want to do that. I mean, you're actually the only group that will review removal of mature trees in residential property. And that's because of, quote, you know, historic character, historic significance. So you do have that wherewithal. But I can only say we do not review pruning and I do not believe this woman was trying to kill the tree. This owner did not go out with the intent to kill the tree. I don't know whether there should be a large education program that the city undertakes. We have lots of material that we have, the city farrester has a department putting out some bulletins about what is healthy pruning. I don't know. I mean, in other words, I don't think this is, I mean, this isn't just a historic, this isn't a historic question, this is a tree question. Wherever this tree would be, you could be concerned that a large, healthy tree, blah, blah, was pruned in an inappropriate way. You're commenting because it happened within a historic district. Yeah. This is considered a historic resource. And this is part of the historic landscape and this historic resource. I think, can I grab a comment which is, can we explore some capacity that this commission might be able to protect a resource such as this? And I agree with you. I think whether this happened on West Montgomery or Rockville Pike down, I mean, this happens anywhere. This tree, I mean, it's very hard to consider what would happen to this tree if anything. I mean, I agree with Craig. I think that if there's any way that we can come up with some sort of a plan to address future instances like this, I would be all for it. I don't know how the other commissioners feel, but I think that we have an opportunity to protect more than just the trees from a pruning standpoint. I think we can protect something greater. That may be an educational process. Maybe something where we try to describe the value of the tree, why we protect our trees in an historic district, what it means to protect a tree, how we do it, how we trim trees, how we care for our trees. Maybe this is an educational process. That sounds to me though, like this owner, speaking with Robin, did want to protect it. It sounds to me like they were. Didn't know how. Delta bad hand by the. Didn't know. Training. Yeah. So that's why I said maybe there's an educational component that we're overlooking. I have a question. Is there anywhere on the website that we can actually place some information on trees that can somewhat reach out to the public if they're really interested in trees? And then to follow up with that, I don't know if that would be on the planning website or HTC. And again, we're talking about trees, and it just happens to be in a historic district, while we bring it to your attention. But so the question is, because this is one and a half questions, one, is there anywhere on the website where we could actually put some information about trees whether it's pruning, some fact sheet or something? So if there are any questions from anyone, we may be able to answer it. I guess I'm trying to say that we need to reach out more to get more information about trees. And to perhaps we can in a planning session actually pull together an educational piece on trees. Within and outside of the historic district, maybe you're one of our HDC sessions, maybe a half an hour or something of that sort so that you're not spending time, but you really want to engage the community and our residents in understanding trees. If that makes sense. I think it leads a lot of sense. And that's maybe that's something that the channel 11, you're looking for subject matter. Exactly. Maybe channel 11 would be a good media for medium for this type of outreach educational program. We describe trees what's good about them, what we should do with them, what we shouldn't do with them. You know, actually many, many years ago remember, we actually did a tree program with a Glenview mansion. And we talked about trees. Yes, this was, I won't say how long ago, but we really did talk about trees. And there's a video on trees. So we may want to not necessarily revisit that particular video, but again reaching out to the request from Bridget to come up with a good story, deal with historic resources or historic something. This may be a good way in which we can do that. You know what I talk about it and show if you want to talk about pruning, then we can show a tree, you know, the correct way or incorrect way of pruning or the different aspects in terms of what it is that residents are having may have questions about and we may be able to show examples during this public outreach. You know Mr. Chair. Absolutely. You're absolutely right. I think it's a great opportunity. This will be where to explore. Jim, do you have something to say? Yeah I would say I would tend to agree with all of your suggestions they all seem to be very good. We would work with the forestry staff. I admittedly don't know the the resources that they have up available online right now on the city's website for trees across the board. We do have an opportunity timing-wise because the technical guide number seven related to landscape is going to be updated so maybe there's an opportunity to work some of these things into that. That's really one of the major purposes of those tech guides is to be educational for our historic district property owners and anyone else. So I think we maybe do have an opportunity to work that into this process and be happy to work with the KVL 11 and try to develop a program if we can. Super. Thank you. Yeah, we can get some follow-up on that at some point. We get their reaction anyway. Also, it would be possible to get from the from from the city our arrest a sort of a technical sort of definition of pruning just from her from her standpoint? Just in the sense that looking at this from the tax credits there's pruning and then and then there's what's happened here, in which how would she define pruning if we're talking about reimbursing for this work? I mean, yes. Yep, we can definitely look into that. Yeah, that would give us some guidelines for recommending a tax credit. I mean, like some certain percentage of foliage or I mean, I'm looking for some sort of line in the span, obviously it's case by case, but some sort of line in the span in terms of, you know, you remove what I've estimated as 85 to 90 percent of the foliate based on what you can see from the picture. I mean, that can't be considered pruning. I don't know what it's called. It's not killed this tree as of today, but when someone asks for a taxpayer down pruning, let's define pruning. Right. I think we would want to want that guidance as well as we're making a recommendation to you. Yeah. So, yeah, we would agree. Last item on our discussion is reconsideration. Follow-up. Yes. Based on your previous discussion and direction put together some suggested language that could be inserted into your rules of procedure that would add a reconsideration process for those decisions that you are the authority to make. Reconciteration basically provides for an opportunity for a party of record or for a commission member also to request for reconsideration and reconsideration is based on certain things. They are for mistake effect or law in inadvertent surprise fraud or other good cause. So they're kind of a set of fairly broad criteria that you would consider a request for reconsideration. It really can't just be essentially a do-over or if someone just didn't like the outcome. There has to be a reason to request that. So it's information that wasn't available to you at the time that might have factored into your decision, something like that. And there is a fairly detailed process involved for a party of record that would file a request for reconsideration in terms of notice. In other words, all the other parties of record would have to be notified that the reconsideration had been filed and then there are time frames assigned to all of that as well. And as I said, the member of the commission can also request a reconsideration on its own motion. We will say that we haven't limited that to just to someone who's voted any particular way on the decision. And I think that's because of the criteria that we have for reconsideration. So, you know, anyone, you know, if there was a mistake or fraud or inadvertence, it wouldn't matter whether a commissioner voted for or against. So that can just occur. We do have to filing deadlines for requests for reconsideration would have to occur within 10 days of the decision. And that is the actual date of a letter that's issued by us documenting your decision at the meeting. So it's not an open-ended thing at the very certain. Is there a deadline for that letter for drafting and sending the letter? Yes, that has to be issued within 10 days of the meeting. The letter is issued from our office. So we anticipate how old occurs that you would receive the request for reconsideration. You would probably take that up whether to reconsider at your subsequent meeting since you're meeting monthly. And then if you vote to reconsider, actually reconsider then that would occur at a subsequent meeting so that the proper notice could be done. So that everyone has the opportunity to come and comment on the reconsideration. So the text that I proposed essentially comes from the Planning Commission Board of Appeals, rolls of procedure. Those were fairly recently modified with the assistance of the city attorney's office. So we think it's pretty well-bedded. We did recommend that items that can be reconsideration that can be reconsidered would be certificates of approval. That you are the final approving authority on those. An evaluation of significance kind of felt that you're not the the ultimate decision maker on whether the property is historic, although we certainly are a decision point along the process. It's very important. So our recommendation at this point is just that specific, it's a approval be subject to reconsideration. So I'd be happy to answer any questions you have on what's proposed. I will say that if you would elect to add this to your rules of procedure, you need to introduce it this evening and then vote on it. Add a subsequent meeting, like the next meeting. It's for it to go into effect. Okay. Any comments? Commissioners, the refugees? No, is there an action required on our part if we want it? Do I have to introduce it? Yeah, just one member would just have to introduce it. I'll do so. No. Just a second. Is there a note on that? It's probably clear just to take a vote. Moving second in all in favor. Hi. I'm introducing this request for reconsideration. Chair votes aye. So what we'll do is bring back the entire rules of procedure with this section added so you can just vote on that at the next meeting. The commissioners have not had an opportunity to read through this. I think. No, this isn't the packet. This was in the packet. Yes. All that's true. Yes, that isn't the packet. This was in the packet? Yes. All that's true. Yeah, but it's coming back next month. If there are any comments, can we submit them to you via email? Please do. Is there a time deadline when just prior to the next brief book going out? So tomorrow morning will be fine? Yes, absolutely. OK. Why? No, I would like everyone to read through this and particularly the attorney commission that if you could read through it make any suggestions. I'd appreciate it. Just kidding. All right. Anything else? We are adjourned. Yes, ladies and gentlemen. you you I'm not a character that I've never met and probably never going to meet because I'm the editor and I'm the reporter. And this story takes me into a place that I don't know, you know, and makes me care about these characters. So over the course of many thousands of words later, I'm really moved to find out what this character does, what decision this character makes, the heartbreak of this character and doers, and I haven't left my chair. So much of it is feel and sound and emotional impact. Did I catch this? Is this vivid enough? I have never written a character that was, that corresponded to somebody I knew in real life. But there are bits and pieces of all kinds of people that I know in the characters I've written. So it's kind of a composite process. My stories come from life. You know, sometimes they come from some newspaper headline that I read that then gets kind of Twisted or filtered, you know, and then finds its way into a story that I hadn't really anticipated Sometimes my inspiration comes from my own family. They start with an idea. They start with some sort of germ and almost improvise There's a famous story about William Faulkner, who was starting his novel, Light and August, and he said all he had in his head was an image of a barefoot pregnant woman walking down a dirt road in Mississippi. And from there, he created a 500-page novel. I'll hear a line in my head and I'll just be curious about who that was that said that. And I'll want to know their story. And I'll just kind of begin to write from there. So I write very intuitively. I don't really plan out a plot and then decide on a character and put them in the plot. What do you know that you don't know you know? That's intuition. If you make it up, but you're relying on all of the gray matter that's orbiting inside there, is that imagination or intuition? So I was working for years on my second novel about a woman who was pregnant and didn't know she was pregnant. And then I got pregnant and I did not know I was pregnant. I had already had a child. Those symptoms were not foreign to me. I know how pregnancy works. And when that happened, I was so shocked. And then of course I had to live the horrible pregnancy I had written for her. So my editor said to me, you're the only person I know who got pregnant by writing. You know, looking back, I remember when I first started school, I was so shy that my teacher thought that I had a mental handicap. And my mom had to actually record me reading out loud the cat in the hat and then bringing in the tape to prove to them that I was okay. And so I think from that moment on I was three years old at the time but I had the feeling that books can change a life. And just a few years later I wrote my first short story about.