I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm going to ask. Okay, I'll talk to you later. I know, before we have to raise the confidence. Yeah, I'm not going to say that. Oh, I just want to hear you. Yes. So let me win. In the ring. All right, everybody. Seven, right, five, six, yes. Oh. It's31. So we'll officially call the meeting to order. Welcome to our Saturday public hearing. Madam clerk, please call the roll. We have asking for the vice mayor, Bob Lee, Councilman Gary, Councilman Chatton, Councilman Elmide, Councilman Green, Councilman White. Okay, now I'm Clerk, next item. The Chair. Approved by the other metronome participation resolution by City Council. Okay, we have one member today who is participating electronically and that's a Councilmember Clerk, Mike. I will entertain a motion to approve the electronic participation resolution. There's been a motion, sir. Second. There's been a motion by Councilman Chapman and a second by Councilman Green to approve the electronic participation resolution. This is a resolution to it as a roll call vote. Madam Clerk, please call the vote. Councilman Chapman. Councilman Green. V. Avskins. Hi. Vice Mayor Baguay. Councilman Gaye. Councilman Moody. All McKee. Councillor McKee. Thank you. The evaluation passes. At this point, I want to make a couple of changes to the agenda. I will entertain a motion to defer the item number 9. Is there a second? There has been a motion by Councillor McLeQueen and a second by Councilor McQueen on Ruby. Any discussion? Okay. Here I know to defer and item nine. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Excuse me. Oh. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. Councilor McQueen, would you be willing to amend your motion to defer until the the next public hearing? Yes, Madam Mayor. You're in the data values. May 17. Let's just triple check. Yes. Okay, so there has been a motion and a second to defer item 9 to our works public hearing, which is the date of May 17. All those in favour say aye. And the opposed, so may the eyes have it. All right. I'd also like to make another change to the agenda. At this time, I will entertain a motion to consider a docket item have a number 13 and 14 out of order. Is that motion? Okay. There has been a motion by Councilman Al Nupi and a second by Councilwoman Green to consider items 13 and 14 out of order. All those in favor say aye. Any opposed? Say no. The eyes have it. All right. For those who are joining us today, the items that I I have asked him I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. to over 30 this month that I'm trying to figure out new ways of being able to do those populations while allowing a broader group of the public to participate. So, now, include, please call item 13. Presentation of a population recognizing April as autism acceptance month. Okay. I have asked Councilman Chapman to present this population. If you are joining us for autism acceptance month, please come to the front. When I'm there, I'm going to go ahead with my source, somebody, and need the proclamation, and then we can move and get out move it. Whereas the autism spectrum is a neurological difference which can cause significant social communication and behavioral challenges and whereas early identification and the resulting appropriate education and intervention are vital to the future growth and development of persons living with conditions in the emanating excuse excuse me, from this complex environmental condition. And whereas the United Nations has designated April 2nd as World Autism Acceptance Day, and whereas the annual observance of autism, acceptance month in the United States brings the rights and education of our autistic individuals, while helping families, professionals, and the general public to understand the unique challenges. Now, we are for our John Chapman on behalf of the Gaskins, Mayor of the City of Alexandria and Virginia. And now, on behalf of the entire City Council, do hereby proclaim the month of April 2025 to be Autism Acceptance Month. Throughout the city, and I call this observance to the attention of all of our citizens, and encourage all our ex-enders to work together to ensure that autistic individuals enjoy equal access to vital programs and services, and are also able to share the quality of life we seek for all of our residents. And when this is where I've here to set my hand and call to see it with the City of Alexandria to be affixed as 26th of April. And with that, Madam Mayor, I'd like to move the proclamation. It has been in motion, third second. He then has been in motion by Councilman Chapman, and a second by Councilman, and a newbie. Any discussion? Okay. Hearing none, all those in favor of approving the proclamation, recognizing April as Autism Acceptancement, say aye. And the opposed say aye. The ayes have it. Thank you, Councilor Chaplin. Great, Madam Clerk, next item. Presentation of the proclamation, recognizing National-Europe American Heritage Month. I have asked Councilman Elmueving to read this proclamation. If you are joining us to recognize National Arab American Madam Mayor for being the honor to present this population. So I'm going to the population that will that I passed the American element and every of you to interest themselves. We're asked for over a century, Arab Americans have been making valuable contributions to virtually every aspect of American society, including in medicine, law, business, education, technology, government, military service, and culture. And whereas, Arab Americans have an important presence in the coming of the Virginia. And I'm going to be the president of the And whereas, Americans have an important presence in the coming of Virginia, and in Alexandria, contributing to the rich diversity of our city and its vibrant culture, businesses, schools, workforce, and civic activities. And whereas, Americans have shared the rich culture and traditions with neighbors and friends throughout our city as public servants and as active community members. And whereas Arab Americans embody resilient family values, strong work, ethnic dedication to education, and diversity in faith and creed, and have added strength to our great democracy. and where else the celebration of Arab American ancestry and cultural heritage educates our fellow Americans, encounters misconceptions, bigotry, anti-abhate, civil rights, abuses, and harmful storytelling. And whereas Arab Americans join all Americans in the desire to see peaceful and diverse society where every individual is treated equally and feels safe. And whereas the extensive contributions in which heritage of Americans have helped us build a better nation. Now, therefore, I, adult and movie on behalf of Aliyah Gaskins, the Office ofia Virginia, and on behalf of the Alexander City Council. Do hereby proclaim April 2025 to be National Arab and National Arab American Heritage Month in the city of Alexandria. And I call this observance to the attention of all of our citizens, all well-recognizing and expressing deep gratitude for the contributions that all Americans have made to the city of Alexandria and our country. And encourage our citizens to join us in this special observance and recognition. In what is the law, I herein to set my hand in the cause of the city of Alexandria to be affixed on the 26th day of April 2025. I'll pass the mic in the air and just introduce yourself. Okay. Hi, I'm Kaden. I'm a citizen of Alexandria, Virginia. I want to go. Hello. Hi, dear. Thank you. So, my name is Yves. I'm a Palestinian. I can write it. There's a small living in Syria. You're a dangerous, a Palestinian. A Palestinian drug, by maternal ancestors, integrated to my state to 1906. Zainan Zainan passed away in the weekend. Jim Sam's living in the US. It's Judy X, Syrian American American. Judy, you can go to help. I mean, local resident Alexandria, also in Plurie, with a city very, very proud to be in Plurie, an Egyptian pasting, and I'm very excited for this. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you so much. And did you like to serve your birds' rookies? OK. thank you. Can I ask you to hold these? Thank you. Good morning. We're so delighted to be here tonight today to celebrate National Art and American Heritage Month in Alexandria. We thank Mayor Amalia Gaskins and the Inter-Hersity Council for this recognition. As we've heard, I can't even remember standing here today in my head to show some more on our countries including Egypt, Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq, and Syria. Another information about us, our ancestors started immigrating to the US in the late 19th century from the epic speaking countries of the Middle East and the Africa. It's estimated that around 3.7 million Americans of ad descent including all the nations, all the seas, questions, doors, brothers, apios, and others. They live, live, work, and contribute to our communities, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia, and the state of Virginia eighth condition of the district, which has a second highest number of American's in the state. Our community has been experiencing a lot of pain and grief as a result of Israel's war in Gaza and the Afghan genocide there. There's attacks in the occupied place in the territories as well as the the Manusia. We'll be struck by the rivers and the lake attacks on the river. The civil wars and the civil war and the suburb and the armed conflict in the blue and other countries. We continue to call our city council to acknowledge our own and brief and meaningfulness and to stand aside in other communities. I may not speak for everyone, say to the people that are injured by this, asking the cause, his family and browser and to their best for our industries and properties. But I just put for everyone here say that we're proud of our culture and our identity and history as our own Americans. And we're grateful to move in the city of Alexander. This recognition is a welcome recognition and we thank you. And lastly, I have a poem called Out of the American, which I'm happy to give out to those who are interested in any of their Southern top cover to visit the council. So thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. We're going to pass the population and take a picture. So again, thank you everyone for being here. This is the second year we're doing this proclamation. I think Zena for being the fourth background last year. I was in the receiving end with Zena. I'm very honored to be presenting it as a council member. This morning, as an American, I think my colleagues are hopefully passing this proclamation and better make a motion., without a bottleneck, I would like to make a motion to pass the proclamation. There has been a motion, there's a motion by Councilmember Ruby, a second by Councilman Chapman, to approve the proclamation recognizing National and American Heritage Month. Any discussion? I just want to say, first and foremost, thank you, Councilmember Ruby Bi for spearheading and taking the lead and pulling forth the population. Thank you to everyone who has joined us today. I appreciate seeing so much hearing about the diverse culture that is represented here, seeing some of our youngest relevance participate, but also a recognition of the many, many ways that you are contributing and engaging in our community from our employees to the poetry and the arts that is represented. And so I hope that folks will take the time to join some of the activities we have on the community, to engage in celebration, to engage in conversation. But also I think it's been a half-poignant out to recognize history and to learn about other cultures within our community. So without that, there has been a encircle. All those in favor say, I, I, and the opposing them, the eyes have it and the proclamation passes. We will, um, guess what? We can't have it. We can't have it. And then if we can have everyone, um, we'll do a quick picture. And the carrot is back there. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I got to be a symposium. item. Public discussion, P.A. Okay, so now we will go back to some regular program. I think most folks are used to on our Saturday public hearings, which is the public hearing and testimony portion of our agenda. For those of you who may be new, the way we do this is the clerk will read the first of our names. We will take the first 15 speakers. Everyone will have three minutes. We ask that you use the podiums on both the left and the right side. We ask that you please stay to the three minutes if not. I will stop you so that we can continue going on with the agenda. Um, with that, Madame Click, please call the first two speakers. G- that we can continue going on with the agenda. With that, Madam Clerk, please call the first two speakers. Jeanne is going to be criminalist at Elpert. Good morning. I've been coming here for a long time, and it started with this box. This box is my evidence service, I don't enter the record in the city of Alexandria. We have the Chief Judge Lisa Camelow, Judge Hark not known, Dawkins and Judge Clark sending me all my evidence that was entered properly into the record back to me. Taking another file in the property in the clerk's office. We have a problem in the city of Alexandria that is throughout the state. But what is the solution to somebody who's been treated like I have? We're through deep after my home is being stolen. These are the documents that are fraudulent, that are standing at that in the clerk's office against my home. The people want to jail for this one. This one, the bar number, belongs to a judge in Florida. All the signatures are forged and or wrote those signers, which in 2022, the Senate stated very clearly to, in a letter to Diamond, what they're saying is illegal. It's very illegal forever. So what does someone do when all the judges are corrupt? When you're sitting in attorney, when you're common love attorney, when you're police chiefs, and we've gone through three or four of them through this, are corrupt, and they're are colluded in order for personal financial gain, or personal financial hierarchy, acceptance. acceptance. We go to our city manager and we file a risk management claim. If you guys want to protect these people, can you guys want to be good things with them and protect them and ignore your other office to protect the people that you serve? Then we have a right to go to risk management. And one of our found about about this management in the city of Alexandria and in the state of Virginia. It seems to us in insurance policy, it seems to us in insurance company, for people who do business in the city of Alexandria, but it's run, they're on the way to go away. It's run in the shadows. In the back doors, when you go to make an insurance claim, you're supposed to have someone you can contact and you're supposed to have a give and go. I've done four-year request to find out what's going on with these four-year requests or letters to the governor and everything. What I'm getting back is zilch because there's nothing being done. They take your complaint and they basically just file it in the trash because they do absolutely nothing. That is a scam. That is a criminal activity. It makes the government a mafia style activity. Rico and racketeering right here in the city of Alexandria and who's involved our city attorney and our city manager. You can't get any information about where our money is going. And fine, you want to collude, you want to cover up for these people, for the judges, and for Troutman Pepper Lock. Thank you, Ms. Grenadier. Thank you. Next speaker. I'm here as a first generation American Latina, as a Jew, and and above all as a human. Most of us are familiar with the expression never again. It is about to stay vigilant and prevent historical atrocities like the Holocaust. My grandfather was barely an adult when he escaped the pogroms to South America, leaving behind his sister and parents who were killed in the Holocaust. He carried a lifelong bitter knowledge that the world had allowed this, but despite his deep pain, he survived. He somehow taught himself to read Spanish. He made a life and a home. Persecution and violence wasn't over for my family. Argentina was their homeland, but a brutal regime came to power in the late 70s and waged another genocide. In Spanish, Nungamás, which translates to never again, refers to the Argentine genocide. When my family fled their homes, the military junta was persecuting, abducting, torturing, and disappearing anyone they deemed subversive in the name of eradicating terrorism. The most barbaric treatment was reserved for Jews. Despite these horrors and not without deep wounds, my family survived. All of this might sound like some terrible period long ago and far away, but here in the US we are connected to this history more than it seems. The thugs who carried out these crimes against humanity did so with the backing, financing, and training of the United States. The US State Department applauded this unfolding genocide and even as Jews like my family members fled to Tel Aviv, Israel was also providing support to the same savage and anti-Jewish regime they were escaping. Just this past week in a Holocaust commemoration, the White House declared never again is now to defend Israel's war crimes and rationalize repressive domestic policies, including abductions and disappearances of dissidents right here in the US. They are weaponizing the history of genocide, which my family and millions of other family suffered to silence, to sent against anyone, including Jews who oppose their ongoing genocide of our Palestinian siblings. Like Israel, they use one unspeakable atrocity to justify another. They say my safety requires someone else's subjugation. These are lies. They say our liberation movement is anti-Semitic. These are lies. They say Palestinian men are dangerous also lies. They say Palestinian women are victims lies. Impresonant children is wrong. Stealing family's homes is wrong. Occupation is wrong. A partite is wrong. Genocide is wrong. Investing my tax dollars, including at the municipal level, in all of this is wrong, genocide is wrong, investing my tax dollars, including at the municipal level, in all of this is wrong. Do something. Thank you, Miss Albert. Next to speakers, please. Caitlin Kotlin, followed by Cameron White. What we allow to happen in Palestine is not stay in Palestine. The technologies of oppression we allow to flourish in Gaza are coming back to haunt us here at home to be used against our own communities. And nowhere is that clearer that in the rise of militarized artificial intelligence, the weapons, the surveillance systems, and the technologies of control perfected in Gaza are brought back here. Historically, the same drones, tear gas, and military tactics tested on Palestinian civilians are deployed in the streets of Ferguson, Atlanta, and Washington, D.C., against people fighting for justice here at home. American police forces train with the IDF. And we've tried to tell you that the same companies that profit from the occupation of Palestine also profit from the militarization of our police, the building of our prisons and the surveillance of our neighborhoods. Today I thought of another parallel, the use of AI tools to suppress and target human beings. In Gaza, Israel has pioneered the use of AI to generate lists of targets for assassination. Israeli forces use AI-driven systems like Lavender to produce mass databases of Palestinians, labeling thousands for drone strikes with almost no human review. Houses full of civilians, families and children are turned into acceptable collateral damage by an algorithm optimized for death. The Trump administration has already begun using AI tools to monitor social media for signs of dissent to identify activists and to track immigrants. In many cases leading to wrongful detention and deportation, but much like Israel accepts Palestinian death as acceptable collateral damage, so too does the Trump administration not care how many lives it destroys by ripping families apart. When we fund violence abroad, we invite violence into our own cities. When we normalize a part tied overseas, we corrode democracy here. We are not good people if we can call out the Trump administration but are silent on even worse human rights abuses committed by Trump's closest allies. We cannot protect our own rights if we turn a blind eye to the trampling of others. Right now, Alexandria's retirement funds, pension plans, and reserve investments are entangled with corporations that profit from the ongoing oppression, displacement and killing of Palestinians and those same companies hurt Americans. You don't think that investment will make a difference, but I think because we normalize this slaughter of Palestinians to live it civilians, we sleepwalk into fascism. Taking a stand is about protecting our rights too. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Cotton. We'll now turn to Mr. White. Good morning, Mayor Gaskins, distinguished council members. Since Israel resumed its hostilities and the Gaza Strip on May 18th, over 1700 people have been killed. A young photographer Fatima Hassuna was the subject of a documentary about life under Israeli bombardment selected to be screened next month at the Cannes Film Festival of the day after that announcement and Israeli air strike killed her along with ten of her family. No food has gotten into Gaza since March 2nd as a result of Israel's blockade. We get updates like this every day now. The complete disregard for human life or international law by Israel should astonish us. But sadly, there are merely a consequence of the continued and unequivocal support that Israel continues to receive from the U.S. for its campaign of genocide against the Palestinian people. It is important to emphasize the role that we play in carrying out this genocide, especially since there are those among us who still cling to the misconception that this is not a local issue. Here in the heart of American capitalism, we have an economy which is immensely centralized in a handful of megacorporations that exert an overwhelming control over it. As it stands now, the Department of Defense is basically a mechanism for handing over $750 billion every year to big weapons manufacturers, such as the ones with illustrious corporate headquarters right here in Northern Virginia. Moreover, state institutions such as the Virginia Israel Advisory Board or Viab are doing the all-important job of helping them in that effort. Taxpayers, making sure that the harder and money of taxpayers like all of us go to the interests of Israeli weapons manufacturers and other defense industry conglomerates who have been making absolute killing over the past 18 months over this campaign of genocide. So when we hear pro-Israeli lobbying groups talk about strengthening the economic relationship between Virginia and the genocidal state of Israel, we need to understand just what the main export of Israel is and that is violence. The so-called Israeli economy is purely an engine for taking US resources and using them to murder Palestinians. As we have watched over the past year, as Israel has continued to export this violence to new markets, continuing to lead bombing places like Lebanon and Syria. And as we speak, Israel has renewed its ground offensive into Gaza, and it's not going very well for them. And Israel knows this, so they're going to keep continuing to send more bombs. Like cowards, they're going to keep killing children, aid workers, the elderly, the disabled, and countless innocent civilians with the weapons that we are continuing to pay for. It's the only thing they know how to do. So that's why we're asking the City Council to divest support disbanding the Virginia Israel Advisory Board or Viab. Right now you need to join your fellow community members who are speaking out against it and plan to dismantle Viab, include dismantling Viab in the state legislative package for 2026. I'm also asking that you support the recommendation of the Alexandria Human Rights Council for a divestment resolution, because I stand against this US backed genocide and so do the people of Alexandria. You can either be with us or against us. Divest now, free Palestine. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Madam Clerk, next to speakers. Glen Pine, followed by Somiar Najia. I did want to mention, I think I, One of our speakers who signed up I think I'm going to have to do that. I think I'm going to have to do that. I think I'm going to have to do that. I think I'm going to have to do that. I think I'm going to have to do that. I think I'm going to have to do that. I think I'm going to have to do that. I think I'm going to have to do that. Alexandria resident, where 566 days now into historic genocide of the Palestinian people. Israel is systematically starving, bombing, killing, and torturing the Palestinian population while Trump speaks openly now of an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from Palestine. The situation there is more dire than ever before.. City Council has stalled and ignored this genocide for a year and a half despite a vociferous movement calling on you to take action. Mayor Gaskin's, you've stated that you oppose City Council making a resolution to call for a cease-fire in Gaza. Do you support the genocide of the Palestinian people? Can you say anything in the face of the mass killing and starvation of two million people Funted in part by Alexandria tax dollars. Okay. I'm going to let him finish. I'm going to let him finish. If you oppose the genocide mayor, Gaskins, then I'm wondering if in principle, you believe that the city should invest in companies that are getting rich by selling weapons used to blow up tens of thousands of Palestinian children and babies. Do you agree with divestment in principle? Okay, closed door meetings take weeks to schedule and they drag on, and they can drag on for years literally and they haven't dragged on for over a year. But we're really looking for public statements and immediate public action on this. The genocide is a horrific situation that has only gotten worse while this council has stalled and ignored Jews like me who feel like nonpersons in the eyes of the city, as well as Palestinian and Arab residents who are literally just recognized for our history month, but they were, I recognize most of them who have been working for over a year now to try to get you to do something about the Palestinian cause. We have a Trump administration that's kidnapping and disappearing people simply for expressing opposition to genocide and incredibly they're doing it in the name of stopping anti-Semitism. I want to be extremely clear as a Jew that opposing anti-Semitism, sorry, that opposing a genocide and criticizing genociders is the most a phylo-submitting thing that a person can do. If you wanna do right by the Jews, and obviously if you care at all about the people of the Arab world and the Arab people in your own community, you need to start speaking out loudly and immediately against genocide. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Paine, for your testimony. And as has always been the policy of not just my administration, but every past one before me, we do not do back and forth in question and answer from the dias. So you can continue to ask the questions. I will continue and my colleagues will continue to be silent. You can use that as you please, but I just want to be clear for everyone watching that has always been the case and that has always been our response and will continue to be. Next speaker. I want to congratulate the city on recognizing Arab heritage month, especially given that over the last 20 years, this country has spent $3 trillion bombing, mass-crying, starving Arabs in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, elsewhere. So I hope that by recognizing this month as Arab heritage month, that you will do some homework on the Arab people and what your tax dollars have done to them, instead of building your infrastructure and your health systems here in this country. So surely we need to understand who the Arabs are. Well, who are the Arabs? We are 500 million people spread over 22 nations. 10 of them are in Africa. We are Christians, Muslims, and Jewish. And we have Berber blood in us. We have Turkish blood in us. We even have European blood in us. And we have African blood in us. Actually, over 10 million Afro Arabs today live in the Meena region. In Gaza alone, a land mass of, that once held over 2.4 million people, there are over 11,000 Afro Arabs by conservative estimates. And why do I draw attention to this Arab identity? Because it seems like nothing we say will move you. Nothing that we say will move you about the atrocities committed by the United States and Israel with your tax money against the Arab people. So I want to share with you that Gaza has 11,000 Afro-Arabs and that the city's pension plans are killing Afro-Arabs as well. Will you be moved if people who share your DNA are being massacred in this horrific way? for free, married gaskens, and they share your humanity as well. Will you be moved if people who share your DNA are being massacred in this horrific way? Mayor Gaskins and they share your humanity as well, not just your race. We will be moved, will you be moved towards divesting from companies that murder your fellow humans? We tried to appeal to your faith. We told you that Gaza has some of the oldest churches in the world. We told you that Gaza has a Christian community that has been massacred inside their churches. We told you that Palestinian Christian, the Palestinian Christian is an integral identity and part of the Palestinian heritage. We told you, and you should know that Israel has denied Palestinian Christians to go pray in the church of the Holy Sepulchre, this Easter. Pope John Francis would be most disappointed. Wouldn't he? May he rest in peace? We try to appeal to your sense of faith, but it seems that faith doesn't mean the same thing to you as it does to us. We try to appeal to your humanity. We talked to you about the five-year-old hindraja who had over 300 bullets sprayed into her car as she would it for the medics. We told you about Shabendalul Al-Dalul, who burnt to death as he lay in hospital bed, while his father watched. We told you about seven-year-old Sidra Hassuna, whose body was shredded into pieces when a missile hit her home, and her legless body was hanging from a wall. We told you about the 20,000 Palestinian Arab women children killed by Israel with your tax dollars. And that did not move you. I hope you have the stomach to watch how many headless Palestinian children your tax dollars. And that did not move you. I hope you have the stomach to watch how many headless Palestinian children your tax dollars are paying for. You cannot even be moved by the current ongoing starvation of two million people. Some of them, my friends and family, nothing moves you. Nothing. So now I hope you'll be able to talk about the Arab people. And shame on you. Shame on you. For what you said. Thank you for your time. Next two speakers, please. Ronald Threat followed by Amanda Eisenhower. Do we have Ronaldo in the room? OK, then we will move forward with Amanda Eisenhower. Shailin' Lloyd. You can unmute and be good whenever you're ready. Hi everybody. I'm so sorry I can't join anyone in person. I'm actually at a clinic across town helping our immigrant neighbors apply for asylum and protection from deportation. Can y'all hear me? Okay. Yes, we can. Perfect, thanks. So I still think it's important for me to be here anyway to advocate for divestment because I feel a moral obligation to do everything in my power, however small, to bring end to the genocide of part time and occupation that Israel wages against the Palestinian people. You may have heard this month from individuals claiming to represent Jewish-Helix Andrians that divesting from Israel's ongoing and part time genocide is poor governance or even antisemitic. Once again, I remind you that as the descendant of Holocaust survivors and Jewish-Helix Andrii myself, this position does not represent all of us. But why have so many emails, speeches, and hours of your time been spent on this talk? Well, divestment is a threat because divestment is meaningful. You already know the divestment was a key tactic in bringing down the apartheid regime in South Africa. So impactful that Alexandria decided it would join in 1985, passing on its own resolution instructing the city manager to divest the city from companies between business and South Africa. When we asked the city to address from apartheid and genocide, we know that it has both material impact and symbolic value for human rights across the globe. Under the new regime, progressive local and state governments are the sight of struggle, because we can still have at least some presumption of democracy and interest in human rights as a concept. We come to you to stand up for human rights and against genocide because we still can. Up against the Dylan Rule, a hostile governor, and a fascist federal administration, it can feel like we have no power. But our contracts and investment choices should still be under our control. And as my elected officials, I hope you can use that controlled stand-up for human rights and against apartheid and genocide. Now, we heard from a council member recently that working on on the investment in apartheid and genocide at the city level is not worth his time nor his political capital. Well... heard from a council member recently that working on divestment in apartheid and genocide at the city level is not worth his time nor his political capital. Well, we will continue using all of your time. It's only in three minute increments to fight for Palestine, because until we divest, you are using our tax dollars to invest in and do business with the war profiteers facilitating Israel's genocide against the Palestinian people. Thank you so much. Okay, thank you. Next speaker. Sorry, Madam. Next speaker. James Vandermeer, followed by Aaron Irula. And you can also use this one too. All right. Thank you, Mr. VanderMeer. You may begin. Thank you. I have more modest concern than my co-residents here. I have a modest solution as well for you. Alexandria is a dog-friendly city. Dogs enrich our communities, provided that we humans attend our responsibilities. Minimally, dog owners should follow the law, and the city should enforce the law. Sadly, the host run playground just northwest of the King Street Metro Station has become an astonishing showcase for shortcomings in both respects. On a daily basis, dogs run off leeching inside the playground area within feet of signage that plainly prohibits both behaviors. In November of 2022, while eight months pregnant, my wife was chased by an unleashed dog in the sidewalk adjacent to the playground, and last July, I was bitten by a dog within the playground. After that incident, I began correspondence with the Animal Welfare League of Alexandria, Animal Control, as well as the RPCA, Parks and Rec. On September 26th of last year I attended a Parks and Rec Commission meeting to thank them for their efforts and amending some signage in the area. At that meeting they expressed to me that the unleashed dogs were a chronic issue in our parks. Animal Control responded to the further website, 2,959 calls for service in 2024. Though animal control and RPCA manage are multitude of issues and most serious concern with unleashed dogs in public parks is of course the potential for dog attacks. According to the Virginia Department of Health, it's estimated that 4.7 million people are bitten by dogs each year across the country, a 1.4% total population applying that to Alexandria population, we're looking at around 2,100 dog bites a year. Of course, there's a complement we need, which is actually reported dog bites locally. That underreports the overall problem, but of course, it also speaks to the more serious dog bites that are injurious, or that people fear will be injurious if the authorities do not intervene. I feel we had this recall this this data. It's not on any website locally that I could find. Startling in 2010, we had 96 reported dog bites. By 2015, we were up to 201. By 2017, 305. In 2019, we peaked it 428. Since then, we're still looking at 300-350 reported dog bites a year. I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of the three-minute time frame, so I'm just trying to do my best to skip forward here. Knowing all of that, how many tickets would you expect that animal control rights for unleash dogs in our city? Unlawfully unleash dogs. I FOA that as well. Last year was six, 2017, it was, sorry, 2020, the year before that was seven. I think the visit clearly insufficient. On the enforcement side, if animal control staffing level is to, by the way, they're great agencies. I speak with them, I have a great relationship with them. However, on the enforcement side, if animal control staffing level is too low to to address the need perhaps Alexandria police could supplement during high volume periods like evenings or weekends. Additionally, I feel like it's very important to address root causes. Going back to host run for example, there's an actual area designated for off-the-stog exercise in the park. However, it's four-box north of the playground at Oak and Commonwealth. There is no fence around it. You can literally lie with your head in the grass and your feet in the street. That area should be enfensed. I appreciate your time. I've submitted this for the record. Thank you, Mr. Vierter-Marie and Mr. Manager. Can you please follow up with him? I'd love to understand more about the area that's unfins, as well as our enforcement efforts and what we can do not only at that park, but I think around the city. Thank you. Next speaker. Good morning. Thank you for hearing me. I have a problem that I really need help with. My neighbor has started the hobby of beekeeping and now she's turning it into a business and she has grown her backyard which is directly attached to mine within feet of my own. She has six hives currently in her yard. I'm sorry, I'm very emotional because my dog's been stung three times in a week and a half. He's 10 pounds. He's now terrified to go, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that I was going to the city. She had brought in for her new business eight beehives. And after I warned them that I was forced to now go to the city for help, she did within the last three days remove those eight hives, but she is, that's only I think to protect herself. But who knows when she'll bring more to resell them or whatever. But the six remain there to this day. Jefferson Houston Middle School, the children walk there very often. I work from home, so we hear the fire drill go off very often. And the children walk there up that sidewalk. The summertime is coming, the bees get more active in warm weather. My dog, like I said, has been stung. I have personally been stung, but within a week and a half, three times, my dog, I have to watch him suffer. Suffer, this morning he was still limping. He won't step on his foot. He's now scared to go outside. We can't enjoy. My favorite thing to do is garden. That is how I, you know, relax from work. and that's where I find my joy in nature. And I'm terrified to go out into my own yard because of this. And she doesn't care. Oh, there are no laws. There are no laws currently in Alexandria. Can you believe this? There are zero regulations about the number of beehives you can have, or how far away they have to be from another property or anything like that. I was astonished to learn that. But I know there is a Virginia code, but apparently it doesn't apply to Alexandria City. I don't understand. I'm not an attorney. But I'm begging you, please help me. Tell me who else I can talk to. I call the Code of Administration. I'm waiting for a call back from them. I'm hoping that they can help me. I call animal control. They don't deal with insects. So I don't really know if I could get any information after, my time is almost up but after. If I could get any information from from anyone here I'd be so grateful because I truly need help and any of those children one bee sting can cause someone to die from anaphylactic shock. Enough is enough this has to end. Please I'm begging you for some help. So let's thank you for coming and raising the issue. This is our city manager. I'm going to have him meet you in the back Let's get exchange of information and we'll follow up with I know I know we do have some regulations as it relates to be keeping So let's make sure we are doing the proper enforcement But we'll make sure before you leave that we're gonna exchange information and we can follow up on this specific Thank you you so much. If you just wanna meet him in that corner, I think he's gonna grab a staff person. Madam Clark, did we have any additional speakers sign up? That was a final speaker. Okay, so that is the final speaker. I will entertain a motion to close the public discussion period. All right, there has been a motion by Vice Mayor Bagley and a second by Councilwoman Green. Any discussion? All right. All those in favor of closing the public discussion period say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Say nay. Are the ayes had a madam clerk next item. Planning Commission, special use permit 2025-007, 4,001 Mount Vernon Avenue Planning Commission action recommends approval 7-0. This is on our action consent. So I will entertain a motion to approve the action consent calendar if there's one. All right, there has been a motion is there a second? Any discussion? Okay, there's been a motion by Councilman Chapman, a second by Vice Mayor Bagley, to prove the action consent calendar item number four, all those in favor say aye. Aye. And you oppose say nay. All right, the ayes have it. Madam Clerk, next item. Roll call consent calendar five through eight. I will entertain a motion to approve the roll call consent calendar. All right, we have a motion by Councilman Chapman. Is there a second? There's been a second by Vice Mayor Bagley to close the public hearing and to approve the roll call consent calendar. This is a roll call. Madam Clerk, please call the roll. Councilman Chapman. All right. Vice Mayor Bagley. Mayor Gaskins. Aye. Councilman Aguieri. Noobie. Aye. Councilwoman Green. Aye. Councilman McPins. Aye. Councilman Aguieri. Councilman Elnubi. Aye. Councilwoman Green. Aye. Councilman McPide. Aye. Aye. Aye. The roll call consent calendar passes. Madam Clerk, please call the next item. Item 10, rezoning, 2024-00004. Development Special Use Permit, I'm sorry, number 2024-10017. encroachment, 2024-0008802 and 808 North Washington Street, the Wiley Bayes II, Planning Commission Action recommends approval 70. Okay, do we need a presentation on this one? I don't see any. Okay. We're going to start with the staff presentation and then we have two speakers that we'll go to. Good morning, Madam Mayor and members of the City Council. For the record, my name is Stephanie Sample with the Department of Planning and zoning. The applicant 808 Washington Street LLC proposes to redevelop a partially constructed hotel project at 802 and 808 North Washington Street into a multi-unit dwelling. This is the site of the former town motel. This agenda shows the slides that will follow. The applicant purchased the 98 room hotel entitlement last year from the prior owner and proposes a major amendment to the previous approval to allow for the conversion to a multi-unit dwelling project with 49 units, including an affordable for sale unit. Because a multi-unit dwelling cannot be constructed at the same density as the hotel in the CDX zone, the applicant requests several approvals. These approvals are required to allow for the new use, even though the site layout, building height and scale and massing, as well as the FAR remain generally the same. The project is in a mixed-use area of Old Town with street furniture on North Washington and Madison York. The project is in a mixed juice area of old town with street furniture on north Washington and Madison streets. The project is located in the old town north small area, plain boundaries, but is immediately adjacent to the Braddock metro neighborhood boundaries, where the Whitley Phase 1, which is being developed by the same applicant, is located. The site is also in the Oldenburg, Alexandria district, and therefore, subject to review and approval by the Board of Architecture Review. The historic house was originally closer to the center of the site, but was moved to the south as part of the hotel project. As you can see, several portions of the hotel project were constructed prior to the pause, including the underground parking lot and some sections of the first floor. The two projects will share a private alley with 10 feet on each side to gain access to their underground parking garages. While the height, scale and massing didn't change much, there are several minor changes made by the applicant in order to pivot from a hotel to a condominium and staff sees these as improvements to the earlier plan. They include updated architecture and more building articulation. The prior building layout was more box-like. The removal of a curb cut on Washington Street for an improved street scape with more street trees and a longer planning strip unit entrances at street level for pedestrian level activation The applicant was able to relocate the garage entrance from the middle of the alley farther north to allow for more underground parking Unlike the hotel which had no open space requirement the residential use requires 25% of the site area in open space which the applicant is able to achieve through a combination of ground level and above grade private and shared open space. As noted previously, this new residential project requires a rezoning to allow for a multi-unit dwelling, but the same density as the hotel. The request also includes special use permit for an increase in FAR up to 2.5 bonus density for the provision of affordable housing and a two space parking reduction, as well as a 8% ground coverage modification. Finally, the upper balconies and a small portion of the front facade of the historic townhouse require an encroachment. As with all projects, we'd like to highlight certain areas like schools, transportation, and stormwater. The project will generate approximately three students who would be districted for Naomi Brooks Elementary School, George Washington Middle School, and Alexandria City High School. With respect to transportation, the removal of the Washington Street curb cut will significantly improve both vehicular and pedestrian safety on this highly traffic street. There will be a significant reduction in phosphorus from existing conditions as well. There are several project benefits, including more housing and a for sale affordable unit, updated architecture, and improved street scape and the completion of a stalled construction project. Finally, the project is in compliance with the city policies listed here. Since the applicant acquired the property, the project has been subject to three public meetings. A BAR concept review, an applicant hosted community meeting and a meeting with the Alexander Housing Affordability Advisory Committee. Without we recommend approval. Happy to answer any questions. Do anyone have any questions for staff at this time? Okay, so we're going to go right into our public hearing then. Madam Clerk, can you please call the first speaker on this item? Kenneth Wire. Oh, I thought there was somebody listed before. I have on my list, Dino Drudy. Okay. Yep. Is he here? Dino Drudy. Nope. Oh, he left. Okay. Well, then we'll start with Ken Weyer. He was the applicant for the attorney for the app. Oh, I'm sorry. He's online. He's on mute. OK, so then we're going to start with Mr. Drudy and then we will go to the attorney. Mr. Drudy, you can begin whenever you're ready. It just needs one mute. OK, you just need to unmute. Mr. Drudy, can you hear us? OK. You just need to unmute him. Okay. Mr. Judy, can you hear us? Okay. You just need to unmute your microphone. Are we able to unmute him or un? We can ask to unmute him. Okay. No response. Okay. Well, then we're going to go to the attorney for the to get him unmuted, we'll come back to him at that time. Mr. Wire. Morning, Madam Mayor. I'm Ken Wire with the law firm Wire Gill. My client, Jerry McCarty, is with me this morning. Staff, you go back to the aerial for a second. I think it tells a very good story. I'd first like to thank staff. This is one of the few projects a client never envisioned doing. He was building the Whitley next door. As you may have seen, it's now topped out and the crane has been... a very good story. I'd first like to thank staff. This is one of the few projects a client never envisioned doing. He was building the Whitley next door. As you may have seen, it's now topped out and the crane has been removed. You can see the top of the page in Whitley Phase 2. We hope to have the construction they're finished by early 2026, December this year, early January. When he looked at his window, He was hoping to see hotel as we all know of a story. This other project was unable to proceed. I want to thank staff because converting a partially built hotel into a residential project was unable to proceed. I want to thank staff because converting a partially built hotel into a residential project was not easy. We exchanged many, many memos and figured out how to give credits for previously approved fees, working out curb cuts. It's very dry, but figuring out how the utilities work was very complicated. So we're very happy to have this project in front of you. We did have AAC and BAR support. I'm referring to just here to answer any questions, and we look forward to continuing this project that's been installed for many years. Thank you. We did have A-HAC and B-A-R support. I'm referring to just here to answer any questions, and we look forward to continuing this project that's been installed for many years. Thank you. Thank you. Are there any questions for that? Okay. I see that Mr. Drudy has returned. So, Mr. Drudy, we are on item 10. Did you still want to speak? Yes. Okay. Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm speaking on behalf of the West Old Town Citizens Association, which extends into the diagonally adjacent block. And so is impacted by the proposed 808 North Washington Street development. The Citizens Association's board meeting coincided with the developer's webinar, which the executive board watched before discussing how appropriately to respond. the West Old Home Citizens Association, acting through its board, pursuant to input from affected residents, opposes the 808 North Washington Street development as currently proposed, and is troubled by the zoning to suit for particular developments, viewing it as spot zoning. Worse, spot zoning as the project is halfway complete. Already something being built there and now you're changing the zoning. Resoning in response to developer requests skips the normal sequence of planning before zoning. In a zoning before planning scenario, the rezoning usurps the usual planning phase, which would proceed to rezoning from the site's historic use as hotel to residential and he viscerates the planning commissions planning prerogative. We're a bona fide process to proceed to rezoning. Studies of the impact in the neighborhood parking, suitability, relative to surrounding properties, appropriate responsibility historic district impact on infrastructure, et cetera, would have to be considered. One of the issues on which the judge overturned Arlington's missing middle is rezoning without such studies, the challenge to Alexandria is zoning for housing and compass is a legal challenge. And here you are doing the same thing again. For these reasons, as well as concerns about the excessive height density and massing and insufficient setbacks and compatibility with the historic district. The West Old Town Citizens Association recommends that you vote down this project as currently proposed, including the rezoning. Thank you. And I have provided in your package the correspondence. Thank you. Thank you. My understanding is we've had a new speaker sign up. So we're gonna go to that speaker. Okay, the next speaker is Melissa Cohnin. Is Melissa present? I don't see Melissa. Okay. You said she's not online. Okay. Any additional updates to the list? Madam Clerk? Okay. So then we have covered all the speakers. By the way, Bag think you're going to say something. It's going to move to close the public hearing. Okay. There's been a motion to close the public hearing. Is there a second? There's been a second by Councilman McGuirio. All those in favor of closing the public discussion. I. I. Any opposed? Say nay. The eyes have it. questions or comments on this item. By the way, Bagley. I'd say aye. Any opposed, say nay. The ayes have it. All right, with that, are there any questions or comments on this item? Vice-�-a-vegley. Well, I'd like to, I guess, kick off the conversation. And I'm going to go ahead and put a motion on the floor, not knowing where my colleagues are yet, but in the interest of getting a conversation going and given my support of the public of the project. I'd like to, sorry, my screen closed. I'd like to move that, my screen closed. I'd like to move that we, gotta say these things, right? The move that we approve, the development special use permit, the end-to-end encroachment, and the rezoning on 802 and 808 north of Washington Street, the Whitley Phase 2. There has been a motion by Vice Mayor Bagley and a second by Councilwoman Green, further discussion Vice Mayor Bagley. Thank you So I want to just acknowledge an element that was touched on by the Presentation by the applicant and by the speaker which is that this isn't a hotel and This project provides an opportunity. I think actually for the community to hear about the challenges facing hotel construction generally in the community right now. We hear a lot of calls for why not put a hotel there, wouldn't it be great to have a hotel there? And I think what is kind of jarring is, there was an entitled infrastructure underway hotel project that could not finish and then could not find somebody to pick up the project and entitled begun project. I mean, not an empty space, not a building that had me torn down and staff jumped in and cracked my time wrong but a fully entitled cranes in the ground project and that person, that developer ran out of money and then tried to sell it to another hotel developer. A fully entitled, just pick up the pieces and keep going project and could not find that person. And so I think it's just a nice moment as a community for us to pause and see the challenges in the hotel market right now. We're not even something as appealing as a beautiful hotel and the gateway of Alexandria could find a buyer. And then I want to transition from that as somebody who looks at this hole in the ground basically every day. I appreciate what's happened here with staff and the applicant to step in, find a way to rework what had already been built with a hotel in mind and reinvision it and keep the project going. I was almost sad to hear that the crane has been removed because I would hope it was just going to stay and move over to the other site. But I think this is a good project for the city. It is creating housing. I believe there's an affordable unit as well. Okay. One, but there is an affordable unit coming as well, which is one of our priorities, and on a fairly accelerated timeline. So those are the reasons for my support of the project. And I thought, again, I wanted to take the moment to lift up what this says about the current challenges in the hotel market generally. Thank you. OK, thank you. So with that, there has been a motion by Vice Mayor, I'm sorry, Councilman Elnube. So just to clarify, I know there was a point brought up during the planning commission meeting about gas stoves versus electric stoves. So what are we approving right now when it comes to that? just clarification for the public? Electric stoves. God, thank you. Any other? Okay. So with that, there has been a motion by Vice Mayor Bagley and a second from Councilwoman Green to approve the rezoning number 2024-000404. The development special use permit number 2, 0, 2, 4, dash 1, 0, 0, 1, 7, and the encroachment number 2, 0, 2, 4, dash 0, 0, 0, 0, 8. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed, say nay? Aye. The aye is having it. Thank you. Madam Clerk, next item. Development special use permit 2024 dash 111 encroachment 2024-0007 1900 North Beergarth Street Adams neighborhood planning commission action recommend approval 7 0 Okay, we are going to begin with a staff presentation on this one. Then we have several speakers. Good morning, council. My name is Maggie Cooper. I will be presenting for the development division within planning and zoning. All right, so we have here 1900 North for regard for a DSUP and an encouragement. The DSUP is to construct a residential building with 345 new units within CDD-21. Planning commission did recommend approval. And some of the elements we'll talk about today will have to do with the community benefits, the impact analysis and the architecture and the BIRGAR design advisory committees recommendation. So for some site context you can see here that the subject property is directly to the west of the Blake and existing multifamily building and it is south of the townhouse neighborhood seminary heights and seminary park. Currently the project of their property has a four-story vacant office building and a large surface parking lot. Excuse me. The project is proposing 345 units that will be used as rental. The site design has a rear setback of 67 feet. In that 67 feet there will be a 30 foot buffer that will be heavily landscape and then a 12 foot bike and 10 foot pedestrian path. Overall the project is providing 18.6% open space. However, with the, which I should mention, exceeds the requirement of the 15% open space for this property. Because the buffer and the rear will eventually be dedicated to the city and because the bike-ped path and the rear is going to be used temporarily as a emergency vehicle easement. They cannot count towards open space, however, if they could, the project would be over 35% open space. And lastly, they are dedicating about 16,000 square feet that you can see in the yellow and the bottom picture. And that will be used by the city to extend the West and Transit Center, excuse me, Transit Way. So they are requesting a DSUP and one of those, the SUP for that is a parking reduction. They're asking for 56 less spaces that are currently required and will provide 387 spaces. They are also requesting a setback modification in the front of the building at the bottom, as you can see with the arrow, there are portions of the building along North Burr regard that are a minimum of five feet from what will eventually be the property line once the area is dedicated for the West End Transit Center and there are portions however that are five feet as opposed to the required ten. And lastly they are requesting an encroachment for a 35 square feet for a portion of stairs that are used for an entrance of the building staff and planning commission were supportive of this because it is a very small encouragement into a sidewalk and does not impede traffic or pedestrian access. The project's architecture you can see here. The applicant broke it into appearing as three separate buildings that are connected. Building A, as we've been calling it, is the green metal basket weave, the middle building you can see with the raised dormers, and then that's building B, and then building C at the end is more at the end and wraps the corner, is more of an industrial building. And to clarify, they they are all connected, but they read kind of as three separate buildings. This architecture was recommended for approval four to three by the Beauregard Design Advisory Committee. So some key findings we should mention. This project will have roughly 39 new students that will be distributed across all grade levels. That number is a bit higher than we typically see for a project of this size. However, the reason that number is larger is because this applicant is providing 35 committed on-site affordable units, which is substantially more than the 13 that they're actually required to provide at this location. They are exceeding all of their stormwater requirements and transportation at this project is is extensive as they are going to be adjacent to the new transit way and they're adding the paths and the rear as well as a 13-foot path that will be adjacent to North Bay regard once the transit way is completed. They are also, again, providing a number of streetscape improvements, providing the 16,000s grid right of way dedication, and it does comply with all city policies, the Green Building Policy Public Art, the bike share and transportation management plans. This project went before BDAC five times, four times at a traditional meeting, and one time for a walking tour of the site with BDAC members and the applicant. It also had three separate meetings that the applicant led with the community. It went before the Federation of Civic Associations and went before AHAC as well. And staff and planning commission are recommending approval of both the DSP and the encouragement, and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you, Ms. Cooper. Are there questions for staff right now? We have several speakers. Councilor Chapman. Can you go back to the rendering of the building? Do we happen to have buildings, any buildings this long? You said these are all connected, right? We have any buildings this this is kind of big with no kind of real separation in them. In the city. I guess the rendering struck me because I didn't see it as that big, but Rob Kerns are planning and zoning. I would say that this is definitely on the higher end of the length of buildings. I think that the buildings that I can think of that are this long have a continuous retail base to them like you know some of the buildings in Oakville that were recently opened right But this is probably one of the longest residential buildings we have. Okay. I don't want to kind of hold up things here But I guess going, I'd love to kind of understand if we, I know we have a policy around town homes and things of that nature about breaking up. If we see kind of this being kind of the new model or trend for kind of larger developments, particularly on the West End, I would love to understand if we think it's appropriate to have some type of policy around break up, breaking up a building if that's necessary or if that's not an issue. I just kind of love to see that or have some type of discussion about that. Carl, more, sorry, Planning Director. I just want to note for Council that staff is working on a set of design guidelines. We are in the process of beginning a discussion with the development industry about center draft guidelines, which would include among the factors, length of building and separation when necessary, the exact issue that you have raised. Okay, thank you. Councilman on Newby. Thank you Madam Mayor. Question for staff. Can you tell me a bit more about the logic behind supporting the SCP for the parking reduction? Sure. So the exid the ratio for parking to units is 1.12. So there's 345 units, 387 spaces. And this is a percentage that, er, ratio we've seen pretty consistent with a number of other projects in the city. I'm so sorry. The project directly next door, the Blake is has 1.42 parking spaces per unit, however they they have seen that they've been parked at about a 1.1. And so based on some data that they've provided to us as well as others that we've seen in the city, we're supportive of this. Great. I saw in the staff report that I think at the Planning Commission or something, some residents were saying that there's spillover in the neighborhoods and there were concerns about spillover from this project as they're claiming that there's spillover from the Blake. But if that's what's happening, like I wonder what is the disconnect here? Does the Blake like charge money for parking? Maybe people are choosing not to pay this money apart in the neighborhoods or do we have a sense of what's happening there? Yes, so the Blake does charge for parking and this building also would charge an additional fee to the monthly rental fee for parking spaces, which again is consistent with most apartment buildings in the city. And we have also heard the same thing from the community saying that there is spillover directly behind. I can go back a couple of slides. So there is a walking connection that is just to the west of 1900 North Boa Regarde that connects to Stevens. And so there are, and that is the streets back in that area are public streets. It's worth also noting that the seminary heights and seminary park neighborhoods, they do have different types of parking in those areas. However, those are all private streets. So there's no parking allowed by anyone that isn't a resident of those neighborhoods at any time. However, if there continues to be concerns about overspill and people walking through the Stevens connection, We're the city's happy to work with residents to kind of analyze what's happening, and possibly consider the residential parking program updates. Which is parking permits, right? Is that when people get a permit and have to have a permit park on the street? Yes. I think appreciate that. That's, thanks so much for that clarification. Appreciate it. Sure, thank you Madam. Thank you. I guess I would just add on that front. If we are already seeing some spillover, instead of waiting, I wonder, can we be proactive in A, maybe starting with the property management to do some sort of communication to their residents about the parking that exists in that program, but then also going out and kind of beginning some of the analysis that you've already talked about. So that way we're not waiting for a bigger problem, but we're putting in place kind of what we would need to address it proactively. Certainly, and Maya Contreras. And that is something that we look at with all of the projects. There was a period about 10 years ago where residents in new buildings like this would not be prohibited from being able to park on the street. And then there were questions a fairness raised about if it's a public street, you know shouldn't the parking be available for everyone? So that is something that we look at on every project. We are working with our colleagues in transportation and environmental services later this year to do an update to the parking ratios that we've been looking at. Parking is a very dynamic issue in the city and we are constantly working on it. We appreciate your comments and we'll continue to look at it. Thank you. With that, I'm going to move us to the public hearing portion. I have on my list, Madame Clerk, four speakers. Is that where we're still at? Okay. The Madame Clerk, do you want to go ahead and call the first two? The first speaker is Dando's, followed by Mary Does. Are they online? They're online. It just needs one mute. Okay. So we will start with Mr. Does and we're ready whenever you are. Did you hear me? Yes. Wonderful. Thank you very much. Mayor Gaskin and members of the City Council. Thank you for inviting me to speak to you. I am clear to continue the parking situation. I have followed the development at 19th-large board guard since the inception with Miss Cooper quite a while ago. And I've attended the majority of the BDAC meetings. The reason I'm speaking today is the parking. The Councilman El Nubi just discussed it and I have big concerns. I live on Rayburn Avenue and you did not discuss Rayburn Avenue. It's right around the corner from 1900s. Overgaard Street. There is a fence, supposedly, between Seminary Heights and Seminary Park. And apparently there's a gate. People can park there, but it's controlled parking. Rayburn Avenue, as it consists, is in the West Grays area, Rayburn, Hard Harding and Siddley Street. We have a major parking problem continually. It's terrible on the weekends. We have the apartment complex across the street. People do not get parking passes, cannot or will not park in their lots. They're vacant a lot of times, but our streets are impossible on the weekends. So what I'm saying, and put it over by the police, and there is restrictions that are not, nightly restrictions that are not enforced by the police. My comment is, at issue, is the request for the SUP for parking reduction. This is basically a failure on the developers to plan ahead. They could have solved this by increasing the size of the garage or reducing the number of units. The SUP needs to be sent back to the developer to be fixed. They have instead tried to do a maximum profit at the expense of the local residents, particularly Rayburn Avenue, Simley and Harding, to we would invariably see an increase of automobile parking in the neighborhood that has already maxed out. So that needs to be set back, fix the garage or reduce the number of units. Make the garage bigger. It can be done. I sat through the presentations on the Bork Art Design Advisory Committee where the residents of seminary heights complained about the balconies on their side of the building and noise. The people from the seminary park were complained about the noise, the balconies at the blank, and the developer, Mr. Wire, delighted all the balconies on the backside of Orogard Street, so semin so soon. Thank you, Mr. Does. Thank you. We are now going to move to our next speaker, Mrs. Does. It is Mary Does. Mrs. Does. I think it's the same. Yeah, just two separate. Mary, are you still available? Okay, if you can. Yes, there you go. Thank you. I am just absolutely shocked to see the I am just absolutely shocked to see the extent of these three buildings, these you go. Thank you. I am just absolutely shocked to see the extent of these three buildings, these horrendous buildings. We have a neighborhood. The Mark Center is park like the plantings and ponds and flowers. It's an office park with valuable mid-century modern buildings are fully arranged to fit the landscape. These are superior buildings as is the park landscaping. The brick buildings echo other buildings and the former winker development. Everything works design-wise. The Marks Center should not be destroyed. This area has four schools, very many school speed signs and cameras people crossing the street. Cedar aisles and and trees necessary. Bowry guards should not be a transit way. And the ducks have come back to the pond this year, even though the city sensed off the pond. This is unbelievable to see what is being planned. It's like a nightmare. Again, we've seen in our area near the West End of Seminary Road and Shirley Highway near Firehouse, they filled in a ravine and built some questionable town houses with no apparent parking. It seems to be happening continuously. Kitty, the poor people who have to live in this complex. Substandered buildings are not helping anyone in the future. And shock and laid bad, slum and over building and jubbles of buildings are not good city planning. Please leave the Bowrigard Street as it is. Do not destroy the Mark Center. Thank you. Thank you. Madam Clerk, next speaker. Our next speaker is Kenneth wire, followed by Richard Jones. Let's say Kenneth, um, Mr. wire. I never called you Kenneth. Let's say, let's say, let's say Mr. wire to last because he's the attorney for the applicant and let's proceed with Mr. Jones. My name is Richard Jones. I'm the elected president of the homeowners. No, sorry, the unit owners of the San Seminary Heights Condominium Association, which abuts the property. Speaking personally, I look east out my kitchen window at the proposed construction site where the current building will come down and the taller building will go up. I will see the sun later in the morning. My days will be shortened. 20 of my neighbors who are even closer to the boundary fence with Monday properties than I, I'm about 20 feet. Others are more like 10 feet from the boundary line. They are going to lose their sight of the sky and their peaceful place in the only backyard they have, which are these attached pottyos at the rear of the town house, directly approaching the new construction. Finally, I'll just say that this proposed looming building, looming over a modest residential neighborhood is too big. Thank you, Mr. Jones. Thank you, Mr. Jones. Thank you, Mr. Jones. We'll now go to Mr. Wier. Madam Mayor, members of City Council, Ken Wier with the law firm Wiergill. My colleague, Megan, repulsed 9 represent Monday properties. Frank and Craig are clients. It's taken three years to get here. The city actually was the largest tenant of 1900 borrower guard when you all purchased the Del Rey Pepper building, the city vacated and the building's been vacant since March of 2024. As many of us know from last month's hearing or two months ago, the Alexandria West Plan started after we were about a year into this process. So we waited till the Alexandria West Plan to finish. Change is hard. The Alexandria West Plan is pivoting away from an office park that is now empty and will be emptying out over the next decade and plans for high density development next to bus rapid transit, which will be right out the front door of the 1900 building. Small area plan calls for multi-family in this location up to 85 feet tall. We are 67 feet along the rear, trying to make sure that we're not going to be able to be able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make sure that we're able to make building, we're happy to make them incentives for people to lease the building. They're completely empty, 130 out of the 440 parking spaces. We also have a 20 public parking space garage on the first floor. You can go in and use your park mobile. People need the park there. They're welcome. We hope they use it so that we're actually getting revenue from those public parking spaces that are meant for tenants and residents before the main parking gate. So there are 20 spaces that are accessible to visitors. There's been a lot of discussion about noise. We had plenty of discussion about noise and a little bit of background. The client gives the 24 hour number to Alexandria Police and Firefighters. It's not just noise-based. There's an emergency in the building. Police and Firefighters can come right up fob in the building. And I will say provide health and safety services to the building. We also have a program, a Monday has a program where they reserve one unit for a police and firefighter at a discounted rate to stay within the building to be able to provide that sort of health and safety oversight or presence is a better word all the time. And finally, there's a lot to talk about in this site, but I think the 35 affordable units is a strong proposal here for this project. It's 10% of the existing units that we're proposing to have dedicated affordable a mix of one in two bedrooms for 40 years for people project. It's 10% of the existing units that we're proposing to have dedicated affordable a mix of one in two bedrooms for 40 years for people making 60% of average median income. I know there's a lot of discussion. We can ramble on about this site, but I'm happy to stop there and answer in your questions. This is the end of the three year process. We comply with all your policies, green building, exceed affordable housing, its high density transit, development and we're dedicating the percentage of staff laid out. So I'm happy to answer any questions and look forward to your discussion this morning. Okay, are there any questions for the applicant? Sorry, I thought I saw them. I don't have a question, I had a comment. One of the things I had raised Mr. Wire, both with you and, is because we are seeing potentially more kids on this property. I'd love to explore ways that we have some small creative play spaces or opportunities for young people to recreate in the space, recognize there's probably not enough room for a full playground. But I just would want to see if that's something you and your client would be amenable to exploring during the final site plan. Absolutely. It's very fascinating to watch developers. It's not the end of our process over the next year or two. We'll meet with actually the brokers and the people in the community figure out what tenant needs are and explore opportunities within the building on the site. We're happy to work with staff if we find an opportunity to make an interior exterior play area. a bit constrained, because the buffer in the back was sort of the key movement on the site to minimize the impact on the neighbors, but we're happy to have that discussion and work with staff in the final site plan process. Thank you, I appreciate that. And I heard of Latin clear, I know the noise concerns, I don't want to look for anything at the buffer. I think that was really important to the residents, I think if there is an opportunity interior towards the front of the building, I think having those spaces for our young people to play is really important to our larger goals as a community. Yes, ma'am. Other questions or comments? Thanks very badly. I just want to return back to the parking for a moment and clarify that to the extent spillover is happening, it's not the result of a insufficient amount of parking spaces. The Blake is not reporting that They don't have enough spaces. Is that correct? That is correct. And the lake initially had come in with a higher parking ratio. They came back and had some design changes. And they also lowered the parking at that point. So they had initially come in with much more parking than they have now. What we're really seeing is this neighborhood transforming and that's some of the consternation you're hearing from the long-term residents. The neighborhood is changing. And part of that is because the vision that has been long planned for this, things like the bus wrap and transit, we don't have that yet, but in July 2021, the bus routes were reconfigured. The area has excellent bus service. A lot of people are going probably not car-free, but car light. And particularly for these market rate units, people are able to choose what they're looking for. And many people, if they're moving to this area, someone might work in downtown DC or the Pentagon or in the immediate area. And they're choosing to have one car instead of two. Maybe they're going with other options and so the parking needs are changing. And having said that there is probably a person or two who is choosing to park somewhere else to try to get out of paying for parking. That will always happen but we are seeing these changes and it is not that there is no parking. I appreciate that. The point I'm trying to make is requiring more parking in this building will not address the concern being vocalized by the community. What it will do is increase the cost of building the building, which will then be passed on in the rental cost to the tenants. Is that a fair statement, Mr. Wire? Yes, ma'am. So I just want to clarify that for my colleagues who are sort of hearing what we're lowering the parking, but we're hearing parking concerns. I don't dismiss those concerns, but the solution isn't to raise the cost of building this building by building more parking that people will choose not to use. The solution is what the mayor is getting at, which is we need to figure out communications wise, enforcement wise, parking policies how to have people if they choose to have a car in this building to put it in the building. And so, you know, I intend to support, you know, the project with the parking reduction for those reasons because I want to keep the cost of building the building as low as possible, so that the cost of the rent are low as possible. And so those 35 units that will go to our teachers, our frontline workers, IOR firefighters, everything that the community says they want will be at a price point more available to them. Councilman Chapman. So I don't necessarily kind of disagree with where my colleague went with that, but I do want to give kind of some context. I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we, I think we do want to give kind of some context. I think we, I can't remember probably before I was on council, but the city committed to decoupling parking when it came to kind of some of the development that we were seeing. And I think that that policy is the reason why we are, where we are, not necessarily because of other kind of reasons. I appreciate what have stated. But, you know, us making that definitive policy saying that we're going to decouple this and allow landowners and developers to separately charge for parking versus have that already being encompassed and what is allowed for these developments is the reason why we have that. It's almost akin to us having townhomes that where, you know, we have townhomes in the city where folks have a garage or a driveway versus townhomes where they have to park on the street, right? That is the kind of adequate kind of way to look at that because while yes cost of construction and housing would go up there is no kind of immediate amenity that you already have included with your purchase of that property or be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be going to be correlation. I think the market has kind of pushed the price of rents. We don't necessarily see that on the consumer end. But I do think we are, I don't think our policy is perfect. I've had issues with it. I think it is a consistent policy that we have across the city. And so I continue on, but I don't want to think that by continuing this policy, we're not going to have an effect on our neighborhoods because we are. People are going to continually, consistently kind of find other opportunities. I think the challenge is, and this is what we've come at as a city and I would suggest this for these neighborhoods. We probably need to put in the residential parking program, you know, really work with these community members, work with leaders in the communities and say, let's go ahead and move forward with that. I think we, I don't know if we've ever been as proactive on that, obviously, because it needs the support of the community, but I think we know what the parking future is going to be in this community. There are going to be a number of people that do not want to pay for parking. As you can say as you've said they're not going to pay for parking within the building because it is being charged and so they're going to find other opportunities in the neighborhoods. I think we need to work with our community leaders to say we know that's probably going to be the case because we have history of that and work with them on developing these residential parking opportunities or programs excuse me prior to these buildings opening because we know that's going to be an issue. I guess I would just raise I think you both are raising really important points I think to Bagley's point, you know, parking is always the most expensive piece of a project and the more you add, the more expensive it becomes to build these. And so that gets factored into all of the cost of construction, but also that base rent. And I think to Councilman Chapman's point, and I think it's both a conversation for planning and zoning, but I think it's a conversation for the larger housing master plan discussion that we're in, that even when we have policies that are in attempt to lower the cost, if there are other costs constraints or cost pressures, it still creates a challenge within our housing. And so, however, we are communicating back and forth so that we're not having parking policy changes over here and housing changes over here and planning here, but that they're all connected, I think will be really important. The last question I just had for Mr. Wire, Mr. Wire, can you confirm that the affordable units are spread across the three buildings? Yes, ma'am, they are indistinguishable. We will work with housing staff and it will float as people move in and out of buildings, but it will be indistinguishable and spread throughout the building. Thank you. So if there are no more questions or comments, oh, Council Member Gary. Bye. as people move in and out of buildings, but it will be indistinguishable and spread throughout the building. Thank you. So if there are no more questions or comments, oh, councilman, I agree. Thank you, Madam Mayor. So a couple of questions. Do you know about how old the office building is? It's as old as May, 1974. Okay. Not to say that it doesn't have aesthetic. Mr. Wire, you have aesthetic. But we're talking about an office building in a surface area parking lot. I think it's safe to say that the building isn't lead platinum or gold or silver. I don't even know what the below silver is. So, I kind of start there with the building. We are getting a building that is going to be lead. Silver. Silver, which I would say is a large upgrade to what the existing space is. I will admit that we are losing a number of mature trees, but it's a bit of a trade off because we are doing a lot, not just with the building itself, because buildings a lot of times are the main culprits of issues with our climate crisis. I would additionally say that with the building because of the transit way, we're helping with some of the car traffic. And again, it's a surface area parking lot, which we're now gonna have a building that has water retention and storm water because the surface parking lot doesn't really do a lot of that, does it? No. So the tree canopy, the old office building and parking lot for the environment versus the new building, which is going to be leads over the stormwater runoff, which is a huge plus. You guys have to know what dashtrout runs along Borogard. It's that 35. I will tell you that next month we are bringing a project that is just down the block coming in for parking reduction. It is served by eight different bus routes. And I would imagine that similarly we would have this and that is seven will moderate routes and one dash route. out. And just to be bit more clear, I kind of, you know, on with this, my apologies. But it's the Route 35 dash line, which for the public, if they're unaware, is the highest frequency route that we have in the city and also the highest performing. So I think that's very important to take into account when we're looking at, and that's not even talking about what we're trying to do with the transit way the West and transit way, which hopefully we can continue to plan and fund as we're moving forward in the next decade or so. And then on the housing thing, I think it's also very important to emphasize a percentage number that we usually get for affordable units. On a typical project, what's a percentage we might get? We strive for 10%. Strive for 2%, but in the past, excuse me 10%, but in the past, you usually be getting what, 2-to-4? That is a fair assessment, 2-to-5, I would say. 2-to-5, and I know that up here, my colleague, Mr. Chapman, you know, we used to jump for joy when we get five, right? Or seven, which is very sad to say out loud. So the fact that we're starting at 10% here is a big deal in my eyes. And it's not just a big deal that we're getting 10%. It's also the fact that I remember before I was on council a lot of times these affordable units were coming in at 80% of the AMI. I'm not saying that there isn't a need for 80%, but 60% is much makes me feel a lot better because there's a higher need in my opinion for 60% of the area median income. Now I don't want to be unsensitive to the neighbors. It is a big change, especially for those about in the property. I think part of the issue is that it's a long North Borough Garden, which is a major, major transit way. And what we're trying to do is to build density along the major transit ways. Because this is a little bit counterintuitive, but this actually helps to protect the neighborhoods behind it. Because we're putting in more people on the main road. And so we're not redeveloping and putting more density into the lower density neighborhoods that are behind it. Lastly, going back to the whole parking situation. So respects fully to Mr. Duss talking about Rayburn. I believe Rayburn has a separate situation because their apartment complex is there where they deal with a different situation. Now, if we, to the mayor's point in being proactive, if we begin to see issues along Eccles, along Stevens, Rose or Fairview, Phil Moore, that's where I'll have concern, right? And I think that's, again, to the mayor's point, having that communication and our staff, making sure that we're paying attention to those roads specifically, because as was mentioned, Nikki Centennial Woodmere, which are directly a buddy in the property on the opposite side, those are private streets. So you can't just park there if you're a member of the public, we'll say. So I just wanted to make a couple of those points. And I think that's it. Would you be willing to make a motion of closed public hearing? Oh wait, nevermind. There's more questions. Councilman Chapman. Sue, as part of... Sorry, one second. Are your questions for your staff? Yeah. Okay, then can we close the public hearing and just go to the staff? Yeah, move to closed public hearing. Okay, there's been a motion and a second to close the public hearing. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed say nay. The ayes have it. Okay, Councilman Chapman. Okay. I noted the discussion about what I would consider a RPO unit for our residential police officer or firefighter, is there any conversation about where that program actually stands right now as a city? And are we going to be able to actually use that for that purpose? And I'd like to direct this one either to the manager, deputy city manager, John Lambert. But my understanding is this is coming through a different program than our RPO. Yeah, the current RPO program is the challenge for us right now. That is, I believe separate them what this is about. This is a different understanding. I, from the perspective of an individual, a police officer could go into this under different circumstances. The RPA, RPO one is been a challenge for us in terms of the incenting and an officer to go into certain multi-family. So there's two different things. Yeah. It looks like that. Yeah, I just want to make sure, and I'll let you go after this, but I just want to make sure we get the usage of that unit That's that's really kind of the goal of the question Let's go to deputies that city manager young Lambert and then we'll come up here Yeah, and Mary Gaskins and to councilman Chapman's questions the the department continues to have an RPO program if we have Interest from an officer that we could get to actually place in the unit. We would sort of be able to do that. Rob Kerns, Planning and Zoning, I was just gonna say that the Office of Housing is conditioned to basically manage the list of these affordable units that are in the development project. So they can dovetail with other city programs as we coordinate between the departments. But the Office of Housing manages the overall list for these units. I think Councilman Chapman's raising a good point. I don't know what the version about. Something that I'm hearing from this discussion is there are two different programs here and whatever we can do to coordinate across the two because my understanding is ones that come through this program where developers are offering those are often easier to fill. They're amenities, their better connections, and I think if we can take the lessons from that to bring that into some of the units we're trying to do for our RPOs, that might make those more enticing and help us fill those much quicker. Councilman Chapman. Two things on this. First, I want to make sure I understand, is there a limit, time limit on these, on this particular unit, is it for the duration of the project or is this a number of years? Thank you, big question, Mr. Chapman. This is a developer business practice. It's good business and good policy to have them living in our units. So we are not, this is not a condition. Okay. We've done this at the Blake. It's always open. someone in there. The only reason we wouldn't is if no one applies and the buildings fall. But if the next one comes up, we're always happy to keep rolling it over and have a police officer fire fire live within the building. Any additional questions or comments for staff? Councilman on. For the applicant. I just close. We already close the public area. Sorry. I did have one last one for staff. We did receive a letter about sort of the future of BDAC and how they can be included in future decisions. I think the letter actually put for some really specific and good recommendations. I'm just wondering if staff has had a chance to review the letter and if so, you speak to sort of how we can continue that citizen involvement and engagement moving forward in these projects? Sure. Carlem where it's planning director and yes, in fact among the things that the letter pointed out is the importance of early and meaningful engagement with neighborhood when a development project is being proposed. That is a best practice and something that we and we'll absolutely continue. Normally, the time frame of a initial conversation with the community about a proposed project is during the early stage. Usually when the concept of the proposal has been refined to the point where the developer is pretty sure about what they are intending to do. But early enough in the stage where they are not yet doing a lot of detailed construction drawings or even the preliminary plan work. And so we have a practice that we intend to continue where that is a community meeting that is held either virtually or but focused on or in the community but focused on the folks who are most immediately impacted by the proposed development. Staff attend those meetings. So we are listening to the community members and the concerns that they have and it is an opportunity for us to launch the discussions that could change that project over time before it gets to public hearing so we intend to address the concerns that were raised in that letter and meet their desire for early and meaningful involvement Thank you If there are no other questions or comments, I'll entertain a motion. One last thing, it's very small. But I think this is actually the only green actual building that we have in the city. Do we have any other green color? It means the color. Color. There would be copper patina green. The only reason I mentioned that, because I want to make sure and staff, simply yes, hopefully, we'll work and we'll move on, that as we look at the different materials we're using on this project and things of that nature, we're still at the high level of quality and things of that nature because I want to make sure when this building is 30, 40 years old, we're not looking at it like we have this green-ish rusted building type of thing. I just want to make sure the quality level is still at that same standard that you have for most buildings on the West End. Rob Kerns, we worked extensively with this applicant on the variety of materials, as you can see in the architecture as well as the quality to get to the proposal today. And as Mr. Mourds said earlier, with the design guidelines discussion, we'll be talking about materials as well. Okay. I'll go on forward in the fall. Good. All right with that. Madam Mayor put a motion on the floor. Okay is there a second? Actually you know it let me add. I'm Chapman. Can you finish the matter? Yeah. Sorry. Put a motion on and forward to approve the application. To approve development special use permit. Number two, what is it? I'm just trying to. 2024-10011 and the encroachment number 2024-0007. There you go. And there's one second. Any other discussion? All right, hearing none. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Claudia Poe-Sene. The ayes have it. And the motion carries. Thank you. Madam Clerk, next item. Public hearing and second reading and final passage of the proposed changes to the ordinance for the independent policing auditor as well as the independent community policy review board roll call for Okay, I think we have several staff members who are here. So let's go ahead and have them come forward For this item and then we also have several folks signed up for the public hearing. To my colleagues, do you want to go through the presentation? Okay, so I do think at a minimum let's's just go through like what are the proposed changes. I think you guys have a summary slide. Let's go through the proposed changes. And then we'll open up the public hearing. Am I turning it to Vice Mayor Bagley or staff? If you have staff, let's go to summary slide. There we go. There we go. Okay. So, for the sake of those here to testify today, who might be in the room watching at home, or simply watching at home, I'm going to also just set some quick context about how we got here. This, these, there was an ad hoc committee formed last summer and fall with members from the board, from the stakeholder group, from the police department, City Attorney's Office, who came up with a set of proposed revisions to the ordinance designed to get the board up and running. That HOT Committee brought their proposal to us in the fall to City Council for adoption. We ultimately weren't able to move forward. We chose not to move forward on the recommendations as brought to us at that time. And in January, recommendations from the mayor and Council were to create a subcommittee of Council members who would take a final attempt at coming up with a set of recommendations that they would bring back to this body. That subcommittee was comprised of myself and my colleague, Council Member Gide, and we met three times for about two hours each, open to the public with members of the stakeholder groups, present and active and participating in those conversations, and what I am presenting here, and what we discussed on Tuesday and we'll talk about today are those recommendations that came from the subcommittee. If that's the background, the recommendations are. One, there was a question about direction of the Auditor's decision making authority with regard to whether or not to pursue an investigation or not. The scenario was envisioned where the board wanted to be able to dictate to the auditor whether or not a investigation should be undertaken or not. that, and in an effort to resolve that desire, that request, the subcommittee recommends that in a situation where the auditor has declined or are potentially chosen to pursue an investigation and the board disagrees with their decision. The board will take a vote if a majority of it, you know, whatever majority agrees if it's in conflict with the auditor, it will come to City Council. And the City Council will determine and direct their employee the auditor whether to take or not undertake that investigation. I'm going to use this moment as well to state for everybody the independent auditor is an employee of the City Council. We've gotten a lot of emails over the last few weeks suggesting otherwise, either directly or implicitly. There are four employees that are hired by the city council directly, city manager, city attorney, the city clerk, and the auditor. So that person does not work for the police department. They don't work for the city manager even. They work for us. The second recommendation is the application and extent of the auditor's subpoena power. The question is should the auditor have the ability to subpoena people and things. There was a lengthy discussion debate sort of historical background and context given about Guarantee and what that means for the use of subpoenas with regard to law enforcement, where my colleague and I landed was where the auditor has the ability to subpoena things. And by things, the kind of things you would use in an investigative report, body-worn cameras, ring cameras, photographs, sketches that people have made. If somebody went home and wrote in their diary, I can't believe this thing I saw today. And it describes what happened contemporaneously. It would not allow the auditor to pursue subpoenas of individuals in recognition that a law enforcement-related subpoena would not produce testimony because of the guarantee provisions that basically allow officers to participate in internal investigations but not have to participate in other investigations. Finally, there was a script nurse error and we have corrected that and I don't think there's much dispute or discussion about correcting that error. Councillorman Aguirre, is there anything you wanted to say as the other member of this up committee? No matter mayor, I think the vice mayor covered pretty much everything. I the only other thing I'd say is that you know there was a there was an impasse I would say between the council of a community and all of this. And so we were trying to get to a compromise. And we felt that we got to a really good place. At the end of the last meeting, there were smiles, head nods, handshakes, went around the rooms. Last hour, everybody was feeling, and everybody said that they're feeling really good. And I left that meeting, feeling the same way. Thank you. So with that, I think we have several speakers. I think my, since I use pen and paper, my list might be a little out of date. So Madam Clerk, if you could please call the first two, and we'll just go off here, let's. Jonathan Crawl, followed by Amanda Eisenhower. Mayor of Ice Mayor, members of City Council. I'm Jonathan Crawl. I am a member of grassroots Alexandria and an Alexandria resident of 20 years. I am here to support the police review board and therefore oppose the proposed changes. I understand they wrote to you to oppose the proposed changes. On Tuesday, there was a discussion of Guarantee which is a legal precedent that public officials are not compelled to testify during an investigation. In that discussion, if I understood it correctly, it was suggested that officers would cooperate with an investigation because if they fail to do so, their jobs might be at risk. The problem as I see it is that it would be up to the police department to decide whether or not to hold an officer accountable for not cooperating with an investigation. So in a circumstance where the review board was very much at odds with the police department, then the police department at all levels could just simply not cooperate. Perhaps I'm not understanding this correctly. So that's why I think we should retain the subpoena power. I will say that back in 2018, City Council passed a police data transparency policy and it was never fully implemented by the police department. In this case, if the, I feel like in the case of the police review board, if the police department was enthusiastic about cooperating with City Council and the public as public wishes is expressed by City Council that we would have already have a functioning police review award by now. So they don't have a great record on enthusiastically cooperating with these public ideas. And the last thing I'll say is I prefer not to cave on this point simply to move the ball forward. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Crawl. Councilman Eguiri. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Do I, Mr. Crawl? It's not a question. It's just clarifying a couple things that you brought up. So for the data transparency part, I agree. I think we definitely have dropped the ball on that. Part of it has been transitioning through chiefs, but conversations with the current chief, we are looking to reestablish that and really get it going so I just want to have a little bit of a break to see that happen. Yes. Yeah I'm trying to a little bit of reassurance there in terms of guarantee and whether the police is deciding to to work together or not. The senator would you mind explaining a little bit of what the chief has in terms of compelling and then I'll take you from there after you're done. Are you referring to the MOU process? So the process of if an officer is saying that they don't want to participate or in investigation, what the police chief has an option to do. The police chief, he does have the duty to compel all officers to cooperate with my investigation. Should it be a problem for an officer to show up and answer questions? The auditor can also monitor interviews. So we can submit questions, we can sit in on interviews, we can review the report on interviews to sort of get over that hump of garity and the officer's protections what happens if if the police, if the chief compels the officer and the officer chooses not to? The police chief has the option for to discipline up to and including termination. So and take police powers discipline up to termination and then. So here's then, so here's a situation that we talked about last year. So now let's say the chief for whatever reason decides not to compel. Who does that then get kicked too? It would be the city manager. And then it would go to city council should. City manager not compel. Right. So the city manager kid compel the chief to compel the officer and for whatever reason the city manager trees is not to then it comes to the council for us to make that decision. And ultimately that triggers a whole domino effect of things where potentially we're finding the police chief, we're fine, the city manager, and ultimately, the community will be judging the city council for the actions that we take. And then, so that's what I wanted to talk about with compelling and if the police is choosing not to cooperate. Now, timeline, we've gone through this before, but timeline, part of the reason that this is taken so long to set up isn't because the police hasn't been cooperative. Would you mind hitting a couple of highlights us to why this is taken so long? Sure, yes. So the ordinance has passed, or rather, the resolution creating This effort passed in 2020 shortly after George Floyd The board and the auditor's office were created via ordinance in 2021 the auditor After the the ordinances were passed the board Then focused on its bylaws working with legal to to do training. They also received training from APD. So that went on for about maybe a year and a half. The auditor was hired in December 2022. She started in, I think her official start was January 2023. The auditor, the auditor's staff, I joined the office in June 2024 last year. And that is also when we came to council asking to take a second look at the ordinance because it wasn't working due to quorum issues as well. The board had several meetings where they could not reach quorum and therefore they couldn't do training. They couldn't vote on any review matters or anything else. So. Thank you. And so I just want to be clear for the public that we understand the frustration. This body up here is frustrated. The past council is frustrated. But it has been literally, and I'm going to go through it one more time, just because I think it's important. 2020 put together the resolution. 21, we created the ordinance. We didn't hire the auditor until 2022. So in that span from 2020 to 2022, we literally can't do anything because we don't even have a staff member to even begin with this. 23, we're finally getting trying to set this up. As we said, we got training issues, we had core issues. Two years, yeah, and I think this, you heard a lot of frustration from this body. Last year, and was it November, December of 24, the fact that it's taken us two years to even get to this point. So, like I said, I want to make that clear that there's been a lot of issues that have brought us to this point. It hasn't necessarily been a lack on anyone's part, the board, the council, the police department, the city in terms of wanting this to happen. So I have two more questions from colleagues on Mr. Calls testimony. I have one first. I just wanna go back through the scenario that my colleague, Councilman Aguire, outlined about the compelling, the police department's, the chief's ability to compel. It seemed to me that the applicant was, not the applicant, that the speaker was arguing that subpoena power would change that. It would either speed up the process or it would make that not have to happen. Can you explain to me, can you comment on that or explain? Sapena Power would actually prolong the process because once a Sapena is issued, the officer will have the ability to hire an attorney which would be our office. We would file a motion to quash the Sapena so it'd have to go through the core process. Should the Sapena then be issued and the officer does have to show up, they still wouldn't be able to be compelled to testify or provide any information. So the best way in which to get an officer to provide information during an investigation is through the administrative review, the investigation through the police department, having the police chief compel the officer to speak during that administrative investigation. Thank you. I'm gonna go to Councilman Chapman and then Vice Mayor Bagley. And then we'll go back to our public. I can madam Mary. No, I want to pick up right where we kind of left off because I want to understand what I'm hearing and then ask a question. And so given the scenario you just laid out, we still haven't. So I wanna make sure this is right. So, issued us a Pina, we've tried to quash it. Now we're in trial. And that's, I'm sorry, I'm just, I'm jumping to the end of parts, but we still haven't gotten to a place where we've actually compelled anything. Or gotten, let's say we're trying to give them to give a statement about their version of events. And that's what we're after. I guess in the very scenarios, I'm not hearing that. As we talked about the scenario where we're trying to We compel the officer, right? The chief tries to do it or the chief doesn't do it. And now we're looking at the manager, say the manager doesn't do it. Council fires a manager. You know, we can't fire the chief, because we don't fire staff. So we still have a chief and officer who haven't given a statement that we're after, right? So that's, am I hearing that right? With that particular scenario, like we're going down a pathway where we still haven't gotten the statement from the officer even even though now we've fired our manager and are on to an interim deputy. So if a complaint comes in, the first thing we would go to, office of professional responsibility, and they would try to get the officer to come in. I've yet to see an officer not come in, but it's case scenario. Right. And then the police chief could compel that officer to go in for the investigation. And it's exactly as you said, if the officer continues to not want to do that, at that point their police powers would be suspended. It would be put on administrative leave, pending why they're not compelling. Even if the police chief compels and they're still not, they're not going to have police powers. And it would go to the city manager to compel the individual, the police officer to come for the investigation. He still does, or she still does not want to cooperate with the investigation. Exactly as we've already seen it, it would go to city council to make personal decisions as to the city manager. If the auditor wants to subpoena the officer, again, like we would go through that whole subpoena process, the officer would, if the court says that officer has to show up, obviously the officer would show up, their attorney would more than likely advise them to answer questions. So you wouldn't be getting any more information from them. And it would be a longer process with a lot of probably evidence and things that would be lost along the way. Can I add something else? I'm going to go to Madam City Attorney. I just wanted to add something to that. So in that scenario, the City Attorney's office would be representing that officer. And then the board and or the auditor would need to get outside counsel. There would need to be some sort of funding for that so that they could, I guess, kind of be against the city attorney's office in our representation of the officer in trying to get that subpoena quashed. So that's a whole other kind of aspect to that. OK, I got a lot of hands. So let me go to Vice Mayor Bagley. Then I saw Councilman McGuirey's hand. And then I do want to get back to the public discussion. And then we can continue our discussion. So what we're all trying to achieve here is the just and throw investigation. And I hope what my colleagues, questions are drawing out is at no point in this process that includes a subpoena with the ends of justice be furthered because it will not produce information from a recalcitrant officer. What will happen is, A, if they are uncooperative at the investigation level, then they can lose their job and be disciplined. Collective bargaining covers that, you know, case law supports it. And we keep talking about like firing the city manager, but also we hired a manager and he hired a police chief reflective of this council's values and the council before it that created this ordinance. So I know we're trying to think out the worst case scenario, but even in the scenario that my colleague has described where we've fired, you know, he's, he won't, the chief has the, the, the, the chief has not fired this recalcitrant officer and the manager won't fire the police chief because that's really what would happen. It would say manager would say to police chief, we can't have a uncooperative officer in our ranks. If you're not willing to fire him, I will fire you. And if the manager won't say that to an uncooperative captain, then it's on us to then dismiss the city manager at which stage, yes, we will name an interim and make it clear to that interim that accepts that role. Your task is to dismiss the police chief at this point. If anybody is familiar with like Watergate and the Saturday Massacre, I mean, but it's essentially the same thing. I'm going to keep firing people until I get to someone who will do the thing I need you to do, except we're not Nixon. Like that was a bad version. But it's important because I think so much of this conversation in the community is happening in very extreme hypotheticals. And so I think it's important today that we actually walk them out in the practical. So that's the scenario with subpoena power since it's back to talking about police, which was where I thought the subcommittee made great progress is specifically if the community wants it as a tool to get information from officers, it will not do that for us. The best tool we have to get information from officers is the internal investigation process, the auditor process, and the collective bargaining agreement that tells them what they bargain for, what their rights are and aren't, and then a good police chief and a good city manager and a civil and a council that supports justice and civil rights. So I think what these questions have hopefully drawn out is this subpoena will neither produce useful information from the investigation, nor really change the end game, which is the officer cooperates and we have a thorough investigation or he doesn't, and he or a bunch of other people lose their jobs. Okay, I'm gonna go to Councilman Aguirre, and then I think I think I was on the line, so if she to do. I think it's going to go to Councilman Aguirre and then I think it's I think hours on lines so she can go ahead and get ready. Thank you, Madam Mayor. So I do want to emphasize what the vice mayor said. We are going and looking at extreme hypotheticals, which I think is important because we need to take these things into consideration. One last informational thing So the city attorney brought up a good point that the board would then need to get their own attorney. So number one, the city attorney can provide a list which the board would then be able to utilize or not utilize. It would be their choice. And secondly, we would provide funding for this lawyer ultimately. So just want to be clear that this isn't some mandate to the board that then the board members would have to come out of their own pocket to be able to pay for a lawyer. for a lawyer, no, the city would be paying for this legal service. Okay. Brian, do we have missiles in our own line? Right. Miss Eisenhower. We are ready for your testimony. Sorry. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Like I said, I'm in the middle of an asylum application. I was trying to coordinate the public. I'm not going to say that I'm going to say that I'm going to say that I'm going to say that Oh, sorry. Sorry, like I said, I'm in the middle of an asylum application. I was trying to coordinate that. So apologies, apologies, I tried to follow all the extemporaneous back and forth, but I might say things of my testimony that have already been covered. So please forgive that, as obviously we're trying to do things at once. Really, I'm just trying to replace to uplift the testimony, the letter given by the Independence of William Police Review Board, as they are the experts. They are the ones who are going to do this, and so they know what they need and the tools that they need to do their job. So I'll just go with my prepared testimony here and that I am grateful that the council voted in January to go back to the drawing board and the proposed revisions to the ordinance. But the compromise language reached by some committee still does not live up to the original conception of the board as a mean. January to go back to the drawing board on the proposed revisions to the ordinance. But the compromised language reached by some committee still does not live up to the original conception of the board as a meaningful independent vehicle to hold the police accountable for the harm that they do to city residents. So in the letter to the council, that's included in the docket. The board members of themselves have explained in great detail why this draft of the ordinance is inadequate. So first the ICPRB writes in our letter that they oppose the proposed structure which tasks the city council with mediating the agreements between the ICPRB and the auditor about when to initiate investigations. This proposal would have compromised the independence of the civilian board, a principle so important that it's directly in its name, right? So the council intentionally created this board to try and delegate the power to investigate or release government to members of the community as an accountability measure. And to roll back this delegation now, breaches the city's commitment to community input and control over our law and forthman agencies. And then second in the letter, the ICPRB opposes the reduction of subpoena powers for independent auditor, which would severely hamper their investigative power and effectiveness. I know that this has been discussed at length today, but mainly I think the concern that was articulated in the letter was that reducing the subpoena power to only documents, which can be heavily redacted, well, to curtail the ability of the board to thoroughly investigate abuses of police power on behalf of the community. So I really am only testifying here to say that we should be listening to the board members that wrote to us that wrote to you and explained what they needed and gave them the tools to do their jobs. And the heart of the issue is that has taken over four years to get an MOU signed and these proposal changes don't actually go as close to a financial security. The issue is that seal billion oversight has to be a priority for the city and And we have to understand that the Alexander Police Department has clearly shown that they're not interested in being reviewed. And so that's why this... oversight has to be a priority for the city. And we have to understand that the dogs and police department has clearly showed that they're not interested in being reviewed. And so that's why this process is so important. So, and again, as always, I'd like to end my test of motorbam, I'm adding everybody that in the time that we were debating this and we were trying to figure out a modified ICP-RB, the Alexander police department killed a resident back in August of 2024. And so why are we still trying to undermine civilian oversight oversight before it can actually get started? So. to remain killed or resident back in August of 2024. And so, why are we still trying to undermine civilian oversight before it can actually get started? So, again, apologies for not being able to follow all of that. But again, I please echo the sentiments of the ICPRB that is incredibly urgent that we follow what they need, and what they say they need to do their jobs right. Thank you, Ms. Eisenhower. Vice Mayor Bagley. Yeah, Ms. Eisenhower, thank you for the work you're doing today. I just wanted to acknowledge that I do appreciate the asylum work and the refugee assistance you're providing and that you're still making time to participate in this community dialogue. With that though, you actually raised two sort of new elements of the conversation today that I want to pause and clarify. I appreciate your, you're sort of reference to they are the experts with the review board, but respectfully what I want to add to the conversation is they're not the only experts in this space and we, the subcommittee, were actually guided in part by an organization called NAICOL which is the National Association for Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement. And they also have a perspective and have a membership and a series of studies. And what way did NAICOL inform the subcommittees work if I'm wrong to speak to that? Oh, good. Yeah, so NaCl's position is you said it. Sapena Power is just one tool in the toolbox. It's, I think we're certainly at a hammer and screwdriver situation where we have to look at the problem and see whether Sapena is needed or whether we can go through the MOU process. What NACOLE advises is the MOU process is much better, simply because all of the parties are at the table and they agree to the terms that go into the MOU. Should there be an issue though with compliance with the agreement between the board and the police department? That is when subpoena power's tend to kick in. That does not eliminate the the guarantee issue. It does not eliminate the fact that you will have to seek outside counsel. But that is the overall position of Nicole is that subpoena power is a tool in the toolbox, but it's not the end of the end of the, you know, it's not the worst case scenario if you don't have subpoena power. And, and Ms. Kamara, you also participated in sort of the ad hoc process last year, and while I'm not in a position to sort of qualify as an expert, I do actually actually want to ask for you to briefly sort of the ad hoc process last year. And while I'm not in a position to sort of qualify, I use an expert. I do actually want to ask for you to briefly sort of state your background here as well in the public defender's office as a community organizer with CRJ, working with people in transition out of incarceration. If you could just touch on that briefly and the experience that you bring to your role. Yeah. I have worked all over the criminal justice system truly. When I graduate, well, when I was in law school, my first exposure was in reentry. Working with people who were just released from federal prison, up in Rhode Island. I was a program assistant that ran the transitional skills group program. So that talked about financial literacy. It talked about how to keep your family old connections, things like that. I went on to work as a public defender after graduating. And then I became a law clerk. I moved to New Jersey becoming a law clerk at the Superior Court of New Jersey. The, sorry, after that I went to join the NYPD team, or the NYPD Monitorship team, which was assigned after a federal judge entered a consent decree with the city to set up a federal monitor to oversee stop and frisk practices. So up there, I was on the community side. We did a lot of community organizing together feedback from residents in Brooklyn and the Bronx about their experiences when they when they When they're with police we also train them on how to sort of navigate the different levels of stops After that I went to go on to work for a Brooklyn law firm on protecting people's civil rights That were violated by either NYPD or people who are staying at Rikers Island I appreciate that. And again, it's just more context. Some of the emails and some of the dialogue in the community has again implied that the auditor is a part of the police department and I just, your particular background I think speaks to the role you bring to this. The last thing I wanted to touch on was Miss Eyes and Howers reference to redacted comments Or you know the way that materials produced in a redacted format Miss Roberts could you speak to when when materials are subpoenaed? How how are they required to be produced and then Miss Camara can you address why when a report becomes public Items might at that point be be redacted So in the subpoena stucisticum is issued, you would receive unredacted documents. So you would receive full documents or would be nothing removed from those documents, which we then go to the auditor. And they might be have, I mean, they might be redacted, but only to protect personal, personally identifiable information. That may be names or the location at which an incident happened. That is just to protect all individuals involved, not the officer, not the complainant, but all individuals involved. When in the board's review, they will get to see the full report. It will not be redacted for the board simply to allow them to you know make a full assessment in reference to some concerns that we've received about the redacted report that's online. That was a report that was given to me from another jurisdiction and it's heavily redacted because it was not yet released to the public in that jurisdiction. That report was requested by the subcommittee just to give an example of where Guarantee would be denoted. And so that is why I provided that. Thank you, Mr. Arboratu. I think that's helpful because I think there were some misrepresentations that that was a report from our city. I did have a question though in it. Obviously, when you look at it, there might see like somebody's address can't be that long or somebody's name can't be that long. What are other types of like, identifiable information that might be the reason why some of that would be redacted in a report? There's any descriptions of people. If they're describing a certain corner where it might be, you know, there's a 7-11 or they're describing things that allow you to picture either the person or the place in which the incident took place. Thank you. All right. Madam Clerk, next two speakers. Worrie Hetfield followed by Angers Moran. I know Mr. Hatfield is here. I think Ms. Moran is online. Okay. Thank you Madam Mayor. Thank you City Council. Actually several of my points that I was going to make have I've been addressed in this discussion. And even though I still am in support of the board keeping there's a peanut power, it's not out of any distrust or poor experiences with the I was injured police department. Actually, it's been far from it. Madam Mayor, when you were a councilwoman, you directed me to the, I believe was, it ended up being a smuggled tenant and Nick Lyon, and I had seen a bunch of white nationals propaganda in my neighborhood, and his intelligence unit helped me, you know, I fed them information, and they helped me take it down. So, quite frankly, I think that there is some goodwill in the police department and I think that, you know, I trust that they would try to comply. To be quite frank, it's more of a fundamental issue for me. I just hope that in the words of Councilman and Lubey that it's just an unused tool and a toolbox to have subpoena power. Should we go to it immediately? No, but fundamentally, I just think it should be an option and I I think that would help the board have a bit of good will and accountability in the community. That's it. Thank you. Thank you. We will now go to Miss Moran. Miss Moran, you can begin whenever you're ready. Thank you. Good afternoon. Mayor Gaskins, vice mayor, back, we and city council members. I'm writing to you as lead organizer of tenants and workers united and on behalf of many community members we represent. I'm also an active board member of the board. I have been a member of the board since 2021. I and others decided to apply to become a board member in order to help represent the voices that are often not heard and not considered. This role in the board is a volunteer position and I have spent countless hours in trainings, meetings, and write-alongs and more. However, the function of the board has not been fully implemented because of the city's bureaucratic processes. As an organization, we reject the proposed changes to the board's ordinance. The ordinance represents the proposed ordinance represents a significant step backwards because it ignores the concerns and needs of the community members who work for years to enact better accountability for law enforcement. This statement is nothing new because we've been expressing our concerns for quite some time. The reason we supported and even applied to the board as an organization was because of the 2021's original ordinance that was centered on having the voices represented on the board, the board's authority to initiate investigations and the board's ability to obtain information through full subpoena power. However, the city wants to maintain the status quo of having yet another group who's only seen to take action, but in reality it is not. This proposed ordinance fundamentally alters the board's purpose and scope, shifting its focus from investigation to review. More like the current human, the city's human rights commission. I was proud to know that the city was bold to create this entity and to show best practices of what other localities should be doing and lead us by example. Our youth members have worked so hard on police transparency and the calamity for years, beginning with data collection of stops in 2015. And after the death of George Floyd, community members banded together and petitioned the city to enact meaningful law enforcement accountability measures. Now the city's weakening the board's ability to investigate addresses to medic issues and the city's jeopardizing the safety and well-being of residents, especially residents of color. We reject any of the changes that strip the community out of what of the gains it has fought hard for years to secure. We're living in times where extreme executive powers becoming the norm and now more than never our families feel unsafe with all the law enforcement. We need the city to maximize its limited resources and ensure we're truly creating systematic changes for the betterment of our low-income communities of color. Please do not ignore the voices of the community. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Ms. Moran. Vice Mayor Bagley. Thank you, Ms. Moran, both for your service to the board, your service at CWU and the value you bring to the community. I wanted to just use your testimony because it highlighted for me, again, something else we haven't yet touched on, which was the subcommittee actually moved the needle from where the ad hoc committee was for what that's worth. I know that there's still opposition from the board, but what I do just want to point out is that between my colleague and I, both of our recommendations went from potentially the board having no opportunity to overrule the auditor in an investigative decision to having back more authority under this proposal and being ultimately getting a decision that sides with them rather than the auditor. That was not on the table from the ad hoc version back in November. And then on the subpoena point, the version of the ordinance that came out of first reading ultimately didn't move forward, but came out of first reading had no subpoena power. So to the extent that I understand the opposition remains, again, I think it's valuable for the community and for the subcommittee and for our recommendations to our colleagues to note that it's reflective of work and effort and dialogue and moving the needle back towards the board. Councilman Aguirre. I wanted to touch on a couple of things too that were brought up in that. First of all, I would acknowledge what Ms. Moran said with the countless hours. That goes for all the board members passed on present. We realize, you know, again, when we, I think we started picking the board at the end of 21 and the board probably first met in 22. So they've definitely been invested for the last two years and spent many hours, not just for board windians, but also with the various training requirements that we have put in place here. When the statements made that this is ignoring accountability, I would disagree with that. First of all, in the premise that we haven't even started yet, we're trying to get to a point where we can stand a board up so that there could be some of this accountability. And when we say that we're weakening the ability again, I would say we haven't even started yet. So how can we weaken something that doesn't even exist at this point? Lastly, in terms of initiating investigations. Ms. to the board. It could come directly to the police. It could come to a board member or it could come from some other individual to any one of those because, sorry, let me start that over. An individual could come to the police directly, to the police board, any board members, or to you, or another individual on behalf of someone can come to any one of those three, is that? That is correct, yes. Once that inquiry comes in, what happens? AIPA, if it comes into AIPA, we assess the complaint. We do, if it's, let's say, the complainant filed it with both offices, which isn't uncommon. They file it with OPR, they file it with AIPA. I would reach out to OPR, and we would discuss whether or not I need an independent investigation, or if I could monitor APD's investigation. After that, we also look at the, I think the first question is does this involve a police officer or employee of Alexandria Police Department? Next would be that analysis between who's going to do the investigation. Should I assume a monitoring role, I would receive regular updates from OPR, I do have access to all their systems as well, all their internal investigation systems. So I would get to see when evidence is uploaded, reports are uploaded and things like that. When OPR finishes its report, if I'm monitoring, I would review it, write my own report, and those would be submitted to the board for their review. For my own independent investigation, I would receive the complaint, reach out to the complainant, do the initial interview. I would then seek out any witnesses if they were listed, as well as get any other outside evidence that I don't already have available to me in the APD system. So it may be surveillance footage from a store. It may be a ring camera or something like that. And going back to the beginning, for whatever reason an inquiry complaint comes in, if APD chooses not to investigate it, how does that impact you? Well, APD is separate. I am an independent body. Should I see that this matter deserves an independent investigation? I will certainly do that. What APD does does not affect my office, not at all. And so this is what I'm going towards in terms of, because I think it was said that the authority around initiating investigations, what I want to make clear is that essentially the investigations going to happen pretty much any way you put it, whether APD decides to do one or not, because you will be looking at whatever inquiry or complaint comes in and then taking it from there. Now, the whole purpose of the subcommittee and whether we went down with the authority is for whatever reason, if there is an impasse, say you look at something, APD says, yeah, I don't think we're gonna look into that. And then the auditor looks at it and says, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna to get it either. Now, in that situation, the board can disagree, right? So this idea that we're taking away the authority to initiate investigations, I would slightly disagree with. I would say that we're still moving forward with investigations and for what a reason, if there is an impasse, we are putting in place a mechanism to resolve that and to be clear this mechanism is very, very public. It also wouldn't be the only part of investigatory power that has that checks and balances. We're discussing subpoena power as well. subpoena power is an automatic. I can't just issue a subpoena to someone and have them show up. It's also checked by a court. It's subject to judicial review for good cause to make sure that it's a legally sound request. Thank you, and I don't know if we have more public speaking. So on my list, there's one more, but I think Madam Clerk, I saw a couple more. It's four. Sheesh, come in. Okay, so we have four more, so if you could call the next two. Okay. The next speaker is Christopher Lewis, followed by Mohamed Safedin. And I see both of you in the room, so if we can have each come to the podium, that way we can continue the public discussion. That would be great. Mr. Lewis. Good morning. Good morning. I'm Chris Lewis. I'm Chair of the Alexandria Independent Community Police Review Board. And I'm here to elaborate on my letter expressing the board's unanimous opposition to the proposed language. It takes away the ability for the board to independently initiate investigation, which is currently in the ordinance, as well as the change from full subpoena power to subpoena juices tech and just to add clarity because I served on the ad hoc committee. The recommendations that initially came to the council were not just they were not all consensus recommendations, some were recommendations that did not have the approval of the board like not having subpoena power. Returning the board to power board to power, to initiate investigation back to city council, base question, why have an independent review board? All powers around investigation would be removed, and the only function left is to share an opinion at the stage between the steps of the auditors report and it being shared with city council. I will note that this removal of power around investigations is also while heightening the training requirements and adding rarely used financial public disclosures for board members. Those changes are highly inconsistent. Why does the council want to increase that burden and qualification to unvolunteers while reducing their authority and power? You can question whether someone would want to serve on a board then. When it comes to subpoena power, the auditor highlighted on Tuesday that subpoena power chooses to come, goes within the best practices of NaCl. So is full subpoena power where witnesses can be called and I'm happy to show you NaCl material saying so. The previous City Council included it so the question is why does council differently? Two-zid discussion highlighted the gap in not being able to call non-police witnesses without giving a compelling reason for it. The only reason discussed was a vague unease about subpoenaing average people with all due respect. The unease of a witness coming forward to recount a traumatic event such as an international incident like George Floyd's murder, which started this. It, in no way, outweighs the trauma to a family that has a dead level one, potentially compounded by racially charged policing practices. This was the George Floyd scenario, and the council is leaving a gap that would limit the auditor's ability to get that witness testimony, regular people, not police. I do not believe the trauma of compelling a witness account outweighs the importance of completing an independent investigation and justice being served. Do not put a future council in a position where they have to blame this council to close this gap during a traumatic event. Please do it now and maintain full subpoena power. Thank you for the seriousness, which all of you have taken with this issue and the board remains a resource in trying to correct these issues. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Councilman Gari. Mr. Lewis, real fast. I, you brought up financial disclosures. Yes. No, I don't believe this board has to do a financial disclosures. Currently we do not have an current ordinance, but in the proposal given to you, that was brought forward as a part of the ad hoc committees consensus views. We added at the request of the police department, public financial disclosures, something that as a, personally as a member of the review board, I was happy to give because we were still assuming that we were going to maintain an investigatory power. Ms. Robert, we're a termless camera. I don't think we're moving that forward in this proposal, are we? And if it was removed, my mistake. But it was in, Nagi, bring up a good point. I want to make sure that we clarify that here. So it certainly wasn't an issue before the subcommittee, but just to clarify, financial disclosures were not a request from the police department. It was actually a request from Kim. She saw that we need to put out there for people to see that this board is not going to be subject to any influence. And it's independence. We thought that that would be an important. Is it still in the current proposal? I don't think so. So we get a definitive confirmation. And to my colleagues, I'm with Mr. Lewis. I think this isn't really necessary. But thank you, Councilman McGarry. I'm going to go to Vice Mayor Bagley while we work to get. Yeah. And again, if it's not there, I'm fine with that. But before we sort of jump to agreeing, it shouldn't be. The only thing I did just want to point out is Mr. Lewis is arguing at the same time that this set of civilians should have direct control over a city employee. So for what that's worth, we all make financial disclosures in part because we have direct control over city employees and the public sort of has a right to know where our decision making. We've all recused in various situations based on what we're not supposed to do. We got a lot of people who want be to be Mr. Lewis. I will call on you. Give me one second. Thanks, Mayor Bagley. Have you finished? And then I'm going to come to staff and then we'll come back. I am curious how I've missed say to Mr. Lewis because my understanding is the board is saying they don't want council to be able to not, you know, to be a part of the direction of the auditor's choices. They want the board members, the seven, you know, unelected appointed members of the board to have direct control, independent of any overview of whether the auditor does or does not pursue an investigation. Is that a fair statement of the board's position? All my testimony today was interesting is that there is an inconsistency in taking away the ability to initiate investigations while adding this financial disclosure. If you, I was willing, as a member of the ad hoc committee, to accept it and let the financial disclosure be added, when I thought we had the ability to initiate an investigation. So, should do both or don't do either. And I agree, that's what I'm getting at. If we are going to do that. And it's just me, by the way, it's not. No, no, no, no. You and I are actually seeing this the same way. Yeah. If we end up today with this body giving the board what they've asked for, which is no oversight and review of their decision about what the auditor does or doesn't do. And I might want to have this conversation. But if we don't, I agree with Mr. Lewis that if there is overview of that direction, then perhaps this is all unnecessary. Okay. I want to come to staff. Mr. Lewis, I do have a question for you. Sorry, keep you up here, I'll take it. I do have a question for staff to see if we've received confirmation of what is or is not. They are not required under the ordinance to fill out the financial disclosure form. They do have to fill out like a standard of professional conduct. Okay, that has to do with confidentiality and ethics training. Okay, so then let's hold that as we have our future discussion. It's really, it's my question for you. You mentioned that if the board doesn't have these two powers, kind of why have I bored at all. I'm wondering if you could speak to, I know we focus, this is the bulk of the discussion. I'm wondering if you could speak to kind of, there when I read these. doesn't have these two powers, kind of why have I board at all? I'm wondering if you could speak to, I know we focus, this is the bulk of the discussion, but I'm wondering if you could speak to, kind of, there are, when I read the ordinance, and when I look at this, there are many other duties and responsibilities of the board. Can you speak to what those are, and are those being done, or are those still of value? There, other than reviewing investigations? Yes, there's an outreach and community engagement component, which would still be there. And there is a policy review component, which I believe is still in there. All worthy and important pieces of building trust in the community, which is a reason it was given for creating the sport. But I would argue that I think as I heard another witness say, the community outreach component was already and could already be done by the previous structure before the sport was created. that was a human rights commission. And policy review also could have been done, but the complaints that happened, if I remember research correctly, the complaints that happened around that old structure with the human rights commission is that they did not have full access and could not require full access to documents, materials, investigations. It was just limited access. The creation of this new oversight structure with an auditor and with a board, independent of the police has, under the current ordinance, created those opportunities that I think bring greater accountability and oversight. And without those, I think there's a question of why you create an independent board when you can still do policy review, community outreach. If I'm missing some, forgive me, but I'm trying to remember them all off the top of my head. No, I appreciate that. I know we received a number of emails that were like, then why have a board? And I think is I read it. These are two really important pieces, which is why I think it has deserved the attention and the discussion we've had here. But I also think there is more to the board than just this. And so I wanted to understand kind of those pieces to me, Particularly the policy review still has a lot of value. And so what happens to that if we're throwing out the dialogue of just disband or don't have it? So that's what I wanted to understand. Can I add? Yes. Also, in the previous structure before there was a police review board, of course, Council always had the power to request, to create an investigation. That's been delegated through the ordinance to this board. It sounds like council is considering, obviously with the recommendation, to take that power back and only allow the board to recommend if they disagree with the decision made by the auditor. I think that would take longer. And I think, you know, it does bring to question then why have a board if the decision is made by the council? Because the council could review independent auditor reports and just as good as an independent review board could. But these are all decisions you guys have to make. Thank you. All right, I'm gonna proceed to our, sorry. Okay, now come back. Sorry, well done, Mr. Lewis. Councilor Minnick. Oh, okay, got it. Never mind, thank you, Mr. Lewis. Councilor Minnick, Gary. Say, there's something came up that I wanted to address because if there is an impasse there was concern around how long it would take. So if there's an impasse, how quickly can the board call a meeting to take a vote to decide whether or not to bring this to the council under what we're considering right now? We've seen the board call an emergency meeting within a week. So. And then to follow up within that week decision, how quickly then can we get this target did for public hearing for the council? I can take that. We can, the council always has the option to call a special meeting or it can go on the next city council meeting. And so I think personally at least, and this isn't future proofing anything right because future councils would decide whatever they want to do, at least for me personally, if this board were to call a special hearing, an emergency meeting, make a decision and throw it to us, I would want to address that as quickly as possible. Hence, I would be looking to call a special meeting as quickly as possible, even if that means going outside of what our regular schedule is. Now at that special meeting, do we have the public hearing at the same time or are we making the decision to then hold the public hearing? When you are calling the special meeting, you're going to have to get some notice for the public hearing. There is a brief notice time for the special meeting and I purpose of holding the public hearing to address, because the special meeting you can only do whatever that the call is for the special meeting. And by law, how many days do we need for notice? I would have to check for special meeting just to confirm. I don't wanna speak off the cuff, so I can check really quick right now. For a regular meeting, was it three days? Three days. Okay, three days. So then we would get to the public hearing, make a decision and then move forward. So I just wanna throw in there that this is a process that can move fairly quickly, right? Again, can't speak for future councils. Personally, I would want to move this as quickly as possible if that were the situation. Okay, thank you, Councilman McGarry. I saw Councilman Chapman and then I saw Councilman El Newby. Thank you Madam Mayor. Can you clarify for me kind of that the point you raised about Nicole and the point that Mr. Louis raised as well about about full subpoena. Best practice from Nicole, but yeah. As recently as January, I spoke with the president of Nicole about the subpoena issue. And that is what I was saying earlier about, it's a better process to go through the MOU process and rely on the trust that's been built there. It brings all parties to the table, the board members, AIPA and the Chief of Police, to all agree, to access, which Mr. Lewis highlighted in his testimony has been a problem for other boards. This board does not have a problem with access. So returning to NACO, NACO's recommendation is that effective oversight does not road blocked if subpoena power is not given to the office. There are other things with an organizational structure, such as an MOU that is much more useful to moving the process right along. Okay. I had Councilman O'Neubi and then Councilman Green and then I do want to get back. We only got three more, two more speakers. Oh, one second, Councilman O'Neubi, we have a hopeful. Councilman Green. Okay, so, um, a summary I'll do. Um, from Tuesday's meeting, I had the understanding that you said, juice is tecum, tecum. I've heard it both ways. I'm gonna go with you, Megan. Juice's tecum was a best practice, was in the recommendation for NACOLE. Yes. That would be close to peanut power. I stand by that statement. It's the most it's the most used It's the most commonly used form of subpoena power used by civilian oversight agencies across the country. So yes Okay, Councilman on Newport Thank you Madam Mayor. A couple of points to my colleague, Councilman Enkier's point of we always have the power to put this back in if the situation arises. So that's an acknowledgement that, and from the auditor's response to me on Tuesday, we acknowledge there may be situations where we may need a subpoena. And all this to argue that we should include it today. So it's not that we're going to use it for included day. We have an opportunity to include it today instead of having to go all of this that we just talked about. So if we just have it in today as a backstop, why not? I hear all the arguments against using it. Fine. Yes. And it's, by the way, it's all going to be that to the auditor's discretion. Today we have an opportunity to just include it. Shall the situation arise that we need to have it? And if we don't have it, then we have to go through everything that we just talked about here. Call a meeting call a special meeting, go to a public hearing and all that. So that's just where I'm coming from on this. My other point to former school board member, Chris Lois' point, you may, and I, you know, we've been talking all day about subpoena for police officers, but we didn't talk about subpoena for witnesses. And, you know, Mr. Lois brought it up. You may get into a situation where a witness just don't want to come forward. They just don't want to. And that's not an excuse not to subpoena that person. Because I mean, yes, there are so many situations, so many possibilities. Yes, there may be a witness that maybe has, as we had some conversations this week, and I appreciate that may have, you know, certain immigration status or where they've come forward. But there may be witnesses who just don't want to come forward just because, like, they may just a privileged person and doesn't even care about that person of color who got abused. So I think there may be so many situations and not having a subpoena in that situation would be a weakness. And for us to go back and just try to put it in, it just doesn't make sense to be in the show. Great. I saw all hands from Councilman Aguirre and then Vice Mayor Bagley and then we still have speakers in the queue. We've just talked to my colleague, just for clarity. I wasn't speaking about subpoena anything. speaking about subpoena anything. I was just talking about the impasse and if there is an impasse, how would that look like? So, just. Helmsman, I'll newbie and then vice mayor, by the way. Same applies for subpoena. If we come to situation, because that was what we were talking about Tuesday, if we come to situation where we need a subpoena, you spark the thought in my head, so. Okay. So I appreciate the scenario that Mr. Lewis and now Mr. Elnube has raised, because it why? Why not do full? And I think what I'd like to take a beat and talk about is in the scenarios of why do full. The only example is this sort of unicorn situation where somebody refuses to participate in multiple opportunities voluntarily. And then for invalid reasons, like they're not undocumented, they're not a victim, they're not traumatized, they're not a crew member. None of the reasons that we would understand for their own reasons, they don't want to help this investigation. We then believe that in response to a subpoena, we're going to get productive information from them. So what I pose to you, colleague, is a scenario where, if we give full power, the office has authority to subpoena anybody. And while you guys now are sort of saying, well, she'll only, they'll only do it to the right people, that's not what full subpoena power is. And so the scenario where there is no other evidence, there's no photos, there's no video, there's no other cooperating witnesses. You're now saying, okay, let's go get the one uncooperative witness to build our case on. Because to your point, that's what you sort of spelled out the other night. You said, well, what if there is no footage? What if there is no other cooperating witness? Okay, so now we have a claim based on no evidence, except the case we are going to try to build on an uncooperative subpoenaed witness. So my concern is, I'm glad we've shifted from the police because I think there's a strong legal and now sort of hopefully, you know, publicly discussed reason why subpoena's to police will not produce information. So now we're talking about private citizens. So there's two scenarios here of who won't cooperate. One of them would be undocumented members of our society who witness something, who are actually more likely to witness something. Because when we look at police brutality and use of force incidents, who were they used against? They're used against communities of colors disproportionately. So who's more likely to witness those incidents? It will be members of communities of color and immigrant communities. So an undocumented person who has chosen not to operate were going to demand to show up at a date, time, and location certain in a publicly noticed document and appear. Who else might appear in that moment? We're not going to come in from the crowd. the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, the law, happens all the time. Cases, you know, the victim does not want to move forward. Who else might not want to participate? I referenced a crew member. Somebody who does not want to be on record speaking about incidents involving their crew where someone else is. And so while I appreciate wholeheartedly, Mr. Lewis's and yours concerned for justice not being served because one recalcitrant witness hasn't come forward. What I posit is, if the whole case hinges on that one person, how strong a case can be built at that point? Whereas if the case has footage, if it has other witnesses, if it has photographs, if it has statements, now how much do we need the recalcitrant witness? And so I hear you, we could go, why not do it all? But then I'm saying now that office has full subpoena power. And it's not just going to be for the one person who is not otherwise afraid, but just doesn't want to participate. And when they do, what will they say? What value will they add? Because at that point, she's subpoenaing in a situation because the case has given her nothing else to work with. So I am more focused in this dialogue today and in this vote on who would be subpoenaed and when. And I appreciated your comment about when would, you know, and the response was, well, I guess if I didn't have cameras and if I didn't have video and if I didn't have statements. But what've sat with since Tuesday night is okay then what does the case look like? You know what is the case look like at that point? Okay we're going to turn back to our public hearing Mr. Selfie. Good afternoon Madam Mayor Honorable, or should I say, champions of anti-waltness? Really, just a tremendous day for common sense. Incredible. I just want to say, I am so proud of you. Really, you've finally done it. You've saved Alexandria from the dangers. Dangerous of independent oversight. You crushed it. World governance over accountability. Dead. Transparency. Not on your watch. It is beautiful. You told the public you believed in change. And tonight you changed it right back. It takes real leadership to do that. It's tremendous leadership. And look, you didn't just kill the real police review board tonight. No, no, no, no, no. You too sophisticated for that. You kept it around. You're spending nearly a million dollars a year, a million dollars on a powerless symbolic board, and you're calling it progress, masterful, really. We found the perfect excuse for this. We just want to get the board moving. We need compromise. We can let impass hold us back. I mean, it's poetry. The founding fathers would be jealous. George is jealous. Look at him. And let's be honest, what's the point of having a progressive city council? If you can't roll back civil rights, gains all by yourself, right? No need for outside pressure. No need for mega hats. You have handled it right here from the days. You told the people you'd fight for them, and you told them you make things better, and you kept your word. If by better you mean more manageable for the system, for the institutions, for state violence. You've turned the idea of reform into the best magic trick I've seen. Spend millions of bucks to do absolutely or almost nothing and call it progress and call it democracy. Congratulations. The people will remember who chose conferred over courage. Thank you. Next speaker. Rashi Rostogi in the final speaker is Adrienne Freix. You know, in 2020, after the assassination of George Floyd, this community came together to say that we don't endorse the militarized police state, killing civilians in cold blood without consequence. This city established the framework for one of the most progressive civilian-reuth-led police review boards in the country. And yet, that board never got off the ground. It has been so illuminating to see how many board members have sent you letters and have sent you notes about what they're looking for and what they want, what the community says that it wants, and how little this council has been interested in making that a reality. You know, 1,128 people have been shot and killed by police around the country in the last 12 months. More than any other year in the last decade. Not less since 2020. More. We're seeing less accountability for police. We're seeing less consequence for them. In the short time since I've moved to the city, APD has killed four people. You would think that this is the most important time ever to safeguard residents and implement checks and balances to check the unimpeded power of the police. Even as we are witnessing the widespread rollback of civil rights and civil liberties, where legal residents are being snatched off the streets and disappeared by a police state, where civilian services like fire departments are being defunded in favor of militarizing police and communities where crime rates are actually going down. You know, today's public hearing has been so illuminating for me in so many different ways. I've heard city council talk again and again about ways in which they are worried about EPD's cooperation and how to enable that. I hear a city attorney who talks about how she's gonna have to defend law enforcement when they conduct misconduct and brutality rather than the ways in which they need to defend the residents against those very same incidences. It's been so extremely performative today to see this city council congratulate itself for recognizing Arab American month, even as it refuses to acknowledge the genocide of Arabs in Palestine, and even as it endorses and facilitates the rise of an unchecked, oppressive police state, both abroad and at home. And now we see a City Council similarly trying to get political brownie points for an empty and defying police review board that will accomplish nothing. There will be no transparency from these proposed proceedings no accountability for residents. Have you guys seen the kind of version of this report that residents would receive? The degree of red action. What am I supposed to learn about my case for your time meeting for your testimony before it comes from a Gary and then I have a comment. So I just so number one to go after the city attorney doesn't make any sense because by law that's what the city attorney is going to do is they have to have to represent the city's interest and APD is a part of the city. And we also, you've been sitting here, realize that we would get independent council for the board. So, just want to clarify that. Also, in terms of police cooperation, this council has been very clear. I mean, we're not trying to do favors for the police, where the police has been cooperating. We're trying to move this forward. And in terms of the report that you referenced that was already spoken to by Ms. Camara. Thank you, Councilman McGarry. And Councilman McGarry touched on kind of where I wanted to go for each of our employees employees, it is spelled out, the ones that we hire, it is spelled out in the code, the duties of their job. For the city attorney specifically, she does not represent residents. The city attorney has never done that. That's not how it works within our municipality and across the state of Virginia. So I just want to be clear, because I know we've seen that on some issues, whether it's hot holes or other things in the city, that's just not how it's set in the structure. I do want to proceed to our last speaker. Good afternoon. I've blown up my Saturday to sit here on behalf of the people who would not come down here. And I just, a lot has been said that I absolutely agree with, but what I'm sitting with is who do you represent? Who did you stand on the street corner asking to sign a petition so you could run for office. How is the public supposed to trust you in these compromises when you are defining compromise not by what they asked, by what other people were telling you to do? How are we, you are defining a good compromise, not based on what the public has asked you to do. You are defining a good compromise by what you were able to negotiate. When you were elected, we elected you to represent the people. We elected you to fight for what the people are asking for. And so when we're seeing you compromise and try to explain a way why you are compromising what the people are asking for, when you are trying to explain a way why you are not giving the people the power to have a voice, the ones that need it the most, the ones that will need this are not likely to be able to go higher and expensive lawyer to fight this case. The ones that will need this are not likely to be the ones who are even willing to speak forward. They will both be the ones that don't want to come forward and the ones that need to come forward the most. I have spent 20 years in this city trying to encourage and train people to be active in their civic engagement. And what I can tell you is the city of Alexandria has very low credibility when you get to the inflection point where there is a disagreement between the staff and the public. I cannot think of one time where this council sided with the people and fought for what the people for what the, that you will be out asking for donations and votes. And when the time comes for you to stand there and be courageous and uphold your responsibility to the people who elected you, you compromise. And then you come back and explain why you compromised. It's not okay. Harold Foster, Chapel Hill, high school students, he said, this town is a liberal place, but they call this town a liberal place, but that is a mirage. Thank you for your testimony. That is our last speaker. Is there a motion to close the public hearing? All right. There has been a motion and a second. Any discussion? All those in favor of closing the public hearing? Say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Say nay. The ayes have it. All right. Where would we like to go? So just, you know, I want to make a quick comment because of some of the things that were said from the last speaker. The, you know, this is a decision of the council. This was a conversation of the council members around authority. That's, it wasn't a negotiation with staff. It wasn't a negotiation with other people. It was, how does the council feel about their authority. It wasn't a negotiation with staff, it wasn't a negotiation with other people, it was how does the council feel about their authority for this board? What does this council want to do with our employee, with our appointee? So I just be very clear about that. That's what the discussion was. There's not some outside thing with that. That's what does this body want to do with our appointee? Thank you. Other questions or comments at this time? Councilman Elnubi. Again, a couple of points. One, again, I'm gonna reiterate, I really appreciate my colleagues work on this. I know it took a lot of work. And it's just philosophical differences. And it's just around the margins. And there's going to be trial and error, I believe, probably. Because this is the first time we're actually going to stand this up and get it up and running. So I hope we keep that in mind as we're having our deliberations. Because I know some of the public comments may have raised the I don't really have time to waste the time to show a little bit, but I hope we just continue to keep having this very thoughtful conversation. And continue to keep having this very thoughtful conversation and continue to think critically about this. The other thing also, I know some of the comments may have come across as we're presuming guilt on the side of APD whenever we're doing an there because, again, APD and our officers, they work hard every day. They put their lives on the line every day. I don't want this to get lost in this conversation. You know, what mistakes happen? That apples exist. Poles are not going to be able to do that. They're not going to be able to do that. They're not going to be able to do that. They're not going to be able to do that. I don't want this to get lost in this conversation. You know, what mistakes happen? That apples exist. Policies may fail. And this is where some of this effort would change that and fix that and repair that when it happens. So it's not to presume that APDs out to get people. Or this board is out to get APD or all of that. There's none of that. And I just wanted to put that out there because I just don't want it to get lost while we're here having a very smart, thoughtful conversation, just trying to get to a decision that we all at the end of the day can sleep with. And then at the end of the day, we're going to move forward. And we have tons of decisions to make after this. So thank you. Other questions or comments? Kelvin Chapman. Yeah, thank you, Madam Mayor. Madam City Attorney, and this is not going to be very clear. This is not kind of a direction of any case, just your overall authority. You have the power to, or your office has your power to subpoena people. We, attorneys can subpoena people. Attorneys can apply for subpoenas, and we do. I'm sorry. Sorry. Thank you. Correct. I think where the reason I ask that question is, you know, I, along with the rest of council, hired a city attorney that has a good amount of power but knows when to use that. That would be my full expectation of any employee within the city and what we do and what powers they have, including APD. But I also am comfortable in giving a great amount of power to our senior leadership with the full expectation that these professionals know how to use it and when not to use it. I think as I look at this and I appreciate staff's position on this, I do not have a reservation of giving that type of authority to the auditor, because I hire, I expect to hire, and expect to work with folks who know when to use their power and use not when not to. I think a number of examples have been laid out here when it might not be the right opportunity, it might not be necessary to use that authority. So I think my challenge is, if this is a possible tool, and the professional that wields it knows when to use it or not to, why not sign on allowing them to have that tool. I think that's where I look at that particular issue. I think folks have laid out what Gary D. Means for officers. I appreciate, as Matt and Vice Mayor, laying out a number of different examples and to the extreme case that we would be at if these items were used. But again, to me, that doesn't negate giving them that opportunity, with that power. I think that's my challenge. I'm going to go to Vice-Morninger Bagley. I did just want to comment on this for me. I think as we're all laying out how we're thinking about this. I've been thinking less about this in terms of, you know, our professional staff's expertise or not expertise because it's going to change. I mean, if I reflect on the past year, you know, we when we hired Kim, we were so excited because of the expertise that she had. And then unforeseen circumstances, we now have a new auditor who we're excited about. But Amara too may choose a different career or other changes may happen. And so I'm trying to think about it less in terms of kind of do we see our staff and their authority that they have. I think it's an important component. But I think for me, the thing that this is coming down to that I have been wrestling with the most is what is our end goal? And I think the end goal is we're trying to get justice. And what are the tools we have that are gonna allow us to achieve that and will the different pieces that we've looked at will that result in a case that allows us to bring forth the information we need in order to achieve that justice. So I think for me, I just wanted to put out my, transparently, so my colleagues know where I've been coming from. That's the piece I've been combing with and sitting in the flow charts and trying to figure out if we are faced with one of these horrendous situations, how are we going to get the information we need in order to make sure that we have a just, a clear, a thorough, and an effective outcome for our residents. So that's the one I'm weighing the most. Vice Mayor Bagley. I appreciate that perspective and join in it in that because it builds off of to the extent that my colleagues want to give full subpoena authority to the auditor because they trust the auditor's judgment and guidance to do the right thing, I don't see how you keep part one. So I would posit that if it is my colleague's intention to give subpoena authority, then you remove the why does the board or council need to be second-guessing decisions by the auditor pursue investigations? To me, those two things are inconsistent. I thought we had agreement at Tuesday night. There didn't seem to be any disagreement about the fact that we should have ultimate say if there's going to be a review process over the auditor and we had good consensus agreement on that at the subcommittee level with everyone in the room and then on the dies Tuesday night. What I'm pointing out here is in the arguments being made about the full faith and guidance in only using this tool in the way it should be used, what you're expressing is we don't need to have oversight and impasse and majority review over their decision making where we're putting that faith in them to use their tools effectively. So help me understand why they aren't equipped to make the proper determinations about whether or not to pursue an investigation, but they are equipped to have full scope of subpoena authority and we trust that they will only use that correctly because we don't have a mechanism this council to pull back a subpoena that we think is inappropriate. We do have a mechanism as written through the board to pull back an investigation that is or isn't undertaken. And our board says that's not the right call. Come. Are there any questions or comments on them? Councilor Chapman. If the vice-american, can you repeat that last part, the differentiation that you said you heard? So what the subcommittees' balance of recommendations reflected was essentially a checks and. Councilman Aguirre and I and his background in mind both demonstrate I think a belief in you know working towards social justice and we were trying to get the committee going with an ordinance that also did include a degree of checks and balances into the point of like why start with any check on two, well, there was a request for a check from the board themselves on one. The board said, we don't want the auditor to have exclusive and final say over what investigation is and isn't undertaken. They were sort of saying, we think we can't fully trust the auditor to make the proper decisions about What to pursue and what not so the recommendation was our attempt to say we don't disagree necessarily that there may be a Situation where the auditor we hired is not the auditor we get and we want to have an opportunity to redirect that ship and then ultimately Maybe review that that employee the compromised position here, and I don't even know that I love that word, but the new position presented on the subpoena was equally acknowledging there's always the opportunity. Yes, Councilman Anubi, if we see situations, but it creates a somewhat checked environment as well to the scope without ultimately damaging the final investigations for the reasons I have set deeply with. Because investigations rarely, and the auditor can speak up here, are going to rise and fall exclusively on the one unavailable witness. To the extent it would, it would be a very limited investigation. So I'm pointing out you made a compelling case for I defer to the auditor if I give her full subpoena power for that position to always use it effectively, to not put a victim, a witness, an undocumented person, somebody who doesn't want to appear in that situation. So to that, I say, why then do we need to create the impasse process? If we trust in the full and effective application of unbridled subpoena power, why can't we also just allow our auditor to make her own independent decisions about what investigations do or do not move forward? I appreciate that. Thank you for that clarification. I think the reason and the kind of the answer to your point, I guess I don't see, I'll say this, I think with our senior leadership, I think it is our duty to provide oversight regardless of the tools they have or don't have. I think they should come to us for annual review. I think that review should be, it's every six months. Haven't gotten that yet, but we're gonna do. To provide the conversation, the oversight from what the seven members of council wanna do, regardless of their powers. City Attorney's Office already has the ability to appeal for subpoenas. We're still gonna see her on a regular basis for our annual review, and it's going to look at a whole scope of work. And so I don't disassociate the auditor from having a seat of subpoena powers from an idea that I now have to just let my hands go off the auditor. I think there's still not only the subpoena powers, but additional work that she does that where I'm going to have a regular, hopefully, bi-handual conversation with senior leadership about what they're doing. And that also is not just going to be the subpoena powers, that's going to be a full scope, just like it is with every other senior person that we have, regardless of the power they have. So I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I guess I'm not gonna say dismissed, but I disagree with the framing of it. I just wanted to say I appreciate your excitement about more of our best reviews. There is a personnel committee that will be coming forward, and I heard six months, I heard by annual, I might even say quarterly, so there will be updates coming. Councilman, I'm curious. Oh, I don't know about quarterly. I don't know if I'm gonna sure if I can get a little bit more of that. I'm not sure if I can get a little bit more of that. I'm not sure if I can get a little bit more of that. I'm not sure if I can get a little bit more of that. I'm not sure if I can get a little bit more of that. I'm not sure if I can get a little bit more of that. I'm not sure if I can get a However, I posit in terms of this oversight, and I hope I'm not really blunt with this. Frankly, when we talk about oversight of this board and getting it together, frankly, I think we failed, right? When people are here and they say, why is it taken so long? And we list out all these reasons. I mean, part of that is from 22 to 24, we weren't on top of it. And I'll take full responsibility for that. I've been on this council from when this was proposed to where we are now. And I will say that yes, we have failed and being able to have the appropriate oversight to make sure that this has come along faster. So while I see where my colleagues coming from, I am concerned because, and it's not to make excuses for us, but there's a lot of things that we oversee, that we try and take care of, and things fall through sometimes. And then at that point, the only people we could all are responsible ourselves. So, I can't even say that I oversee every single decision that the Planning Commission makes, right? And if this board, first of all, I don't think this board is gonna have the volume of work that the Planning Commission has. If we do, there's something wrong in our community, we have deeper problems. That being said, you know, if it's four things a year, I don't know I'm making up a number, then I would agree with my colleague that we have more of an ability to check in regularly and have some more of that oversight. So I just wanted to mention that. I don't know if I should pause before I go into my other stuff or someone wants to, okay, say. You can keep going. Okay, thank you Madam Mayor. This hasn't been easy and it was interesting, the comment made by the last speaker, talking about the most vulnerable that potentially wouldn't be able to afford a case. And I agree, frankly, I'd be hard pressed to afford a lawyer to represent myself. That being said, part of the reason for even having this board is that that potentially assists with this situation. Not having this board means we're not even doing that. So while some would argue, and I've even said this myself publicly, why even have this board? And some would say with what we're proposing with the authority, which I 100% agree with, I do believe it is our employee and we will give direction. And if there's a disagreement, we will weigh in on it. I fundamentally believe that. The subpoena power is a little trickier. But I do feel that we came to a good compromise because as was said, this is the most utilized use of a type of subpoena. I'm not going to try and say it. And, you know, we're making, we're talking about all these theoreticals, we're talking about extreme hypotheticals and possibilities, but we still don't even have a board. We can't even get to the next step, which is to decide whether or not this board is doing something good, accurate, bad, needs changes, because we don't even have anything. That's not to discredit all the long hours of the existing board, but it's just a fact. We don't have a fully operational board. So we can't even get to some of these situations or talk about any of this stuff without having a board that's functional. And when I was put on this subcommittee with my colleague, the vice mayor, you know, we were tasked with finding some compromise and some middle ground, and I think we got there. I think we got to a place where we still have a board that has subpoena power, albeit not for individuals. The vice mayor put it much more eloquently than I can, but in terms of the impasse, the prior decision was there is not going to be an impasse. The board isn't going to have a say in it. Now we're saying no, the board is going to have a say in this. There can be able to have a vote. As we discussed earlier, we can make this go very quickly. Board calls an emergency meeting. Council can do the same for a special session and we make a decision quickly. On whether or not we agree with the Board's decision with asking the auditor to move forward or not. So again, I look at this with, you can't start to have a conversation when there isn't even anything there to talk about. I know we're talking about all the stuff around the edges and we're trying to make this as good as possible. But if we keep on stopping ourselves and making in decisions like we have to make a decision otherwise you're just isn't a board that exists. Is there any additional discussion that needs to be had or is there someone who would like to ask you to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to ask the committee to reporting authority with the impasse and the council to make the determination. Also to have the subpoena doogus take them as the power of the move approval on second reading. Okay. As seconded. There has been a motion to, sorry, do we guys want to say to get, okay. There's been a motion to move approval on the second reading. Is there a second? Second. Right, there has been a second by Councilman McPike. Is there any further discussion? Vice Mayor Bagley. Madam. Oh, I'm sorry. Councilman McPike, let's go to you first. Yeah, no, thank you very much. I'm very happy to second Councilmember Geore's motion on this. We've been discussing this proposal before us as a compromise. And I don't entirely see it as a compromise. I see it as a response to a challenge that we've been facing. I wasn't on the council in 2020 when the process began that led to the creation of this board or on the council in 2021 when the law was passed that created it, but I was very excited when it was approved because I believe we need civilian oversight of instances, incidents with our police department, the type that this board would provide. But it hasn't been providing it because we have structural challenges that need to be addressed. And I applaud the efforts of Councilman Aguire and Vice-Mirror Bagley on this subcommittee to look at these issues with fresh eyes and to propose revisions to the ordinance that will allow this board to get up and running so the people in our city who deserve justice for the issues they have faced, who deserve answers to questions they have, have a process of achieving that. So I think that there's been a lot of discussion today. It's really awkward to be remote when dealing with an issue of this importance. I didn't feel like I could really jump in on the discussions with my colleagues during the public hearing, but I really feel that everyone who's spoken today, everyone on the council, we are all coming at this with the same goal. We want to have a functional effective police review board, a functional and effective auditor's office. And I think we have the changes in hand here to achieve that. And I'm very happy to support Councilor Nicarra's motion and the proposals of the subcommittee. Thank you. Vice Mayor Bagley, how do I handle it? I want to thank my colleague for his work with me on this item. I want to say to the community that. The work of caring for each other is not done in one vote and one piece of an ordinance. It is done through housing. It is done through bus service. It is done through transit. It is done through reading programs. It is done in, you know, tours of health like history in our community. And whether or not the specific details of what we pass today, you know, have full agreement in this body. I do not want it to get lost. That we are passing a independent police review board ordinance. If should it pass? I guess I'm optimistically saying that. But should it pass? That's what we've been talking about. And that's what we prioritize to committee towards. And that's what we have want to have. And that is a statement of its values, along with our budget, which includes millions of dollars for vital programings to keep people safe and fed and housed. So I just, this specific item today was worthy of the time and energy and expressions that came with it. But I also don't want our, this councils and each of our individuals work on social justice and civil rights and building an equitable better city to be lost in it. when one of the speakers sort of said, you know, what have you ever done to respond to residents? And I'll be honest, the first thing I wrote down was the lineage. And everybody up here knows that story. But that was a fight to create committed affordable housing. This prior council did that. So I appreciate the motion of my colleague, I intend to support it. I appreciate everyone who came to speak today in furtherance of their First Amendment rights and our very civil orderly process we have here. And but also, you know, we are working in many ways on many days to pursue the goals that this board has. Councilman Elnubi. Thank you, Madam Mayor, and I appreciate the comments from my colleagues, and I can't agree more with my colleague, the Vice Mayor. Just real quick, and then like all you also have a few words. I did that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great got from the other on Tuesday that there may be situations where They may need this tool and I wanted them to have that tool I just didn't want them to get in situation with you don't have that tool. I wanted to empower them with it So to me it's like why not that's that's where I'm coming just why not why not have that tool It's going to make you a break it. I don't think so. I mean, are we ever going to need it? I don't know. So this is where I'm coming from really. A.E. I don't think so. I mean, are we ever going to need it? I don't know. So, this is where I'm coming from, really. I don't think that this, I think we had a great conversation. I don't think where we're undergarp right now is a bad place. I actually think it's still a good place. I do agree that we all share the goal of social justice here. I think to my colleagues' point, I mean, the work that we do every day, the budget was just passed, you guys, the other, or we're about to pass, and the ad leads that were up on those screens, really show our commitment to not just having a progressive city or moving or enacting progressive policies, but really caring about the most vulnerable in this community. I mean, if you look at, you know, whether it's affordable housing or expanding dash, that's free, but we expanded the line that had the most equity score. Or ACPS, our younger generations. And ACPS is, last I checked, was 60% free-introduced lunch, maybe more. These are the kids that need the most resources. So I really, I think thank you for bringing it up, Vice Mayor. I mean, our work speaks for our values. And even especially today that some of the public comments that were negative, some of us were pointed to either one or several of us, whether it's during the police review board or earlier, just to be frank. Like, some people just don't like that we are not doing what they're asking us to do because they think that's the way to address some things. And I mean, it's okay to agree to this agree. And listen, we put ourselves up here. We chose to run for office and be elected officials. So we're open for attacks, we'll take the attacks, we'll stand by our decisions. At the end of the day, that's what we chose to do. So I think that, and with all that, I still, you know, I appreciate people who come to speak, even if they disagree with us and go into attack us, because that's the right, I mean, I'd rather live in a society where this is allowed and live in a society where I did live in a society where this is not even allowed. Like these people wouldn't even make it to the door, you know, in some countries. So I really appreciate that I live in a community and a society where this is possible where we can have these dialogues. And I think this conversation that we had today was really shows the commitment of us to do our due diligence and ask the tough questions and think through several scenarios and hypothetical scenarios just to get to a decision that we think is the right decision. And we think and a decision that we believe we've put all our thought into at the end of the day. So I appreciate the conversation. And I'm just, again, I am where I am. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate everyone's work on this. I'm just going to be consistent with my vote on Tuesday. Okay, Councilman McGarry. Two quick things. First of all, I appreciate the comments from my colleagues, the vice mayor and Councilman Olnouby, specifically around, you know, this is one item out of very many that we deal with. And, you know, when someone comes up here and says that we're not listening and we're not doing stuff, I would posit all of the things around housing, around transit, around the RISE program. Right? But if that's how someone wants to judge us off of one vote, then it be it. That's their decision to make. And secondly, if this motion does pass, I just want to reiterate to staff that the financial disclosure will not is not on the table at all. So I just want to say this. There has been a motion and a second. I guess a few reflections. There were a number of speakers who spoke about courage and leadership. And I guess what I would just want everyone to know and to my colleagues to know as well, I think that what has been displayed through this discussion, not just through today, but the work of the subcommittee, the community conversations that have happened, I think is leadership. I think there are people who would try and argue that this, I think somebody said, performative or theater. I think we watched people actually display that in their remarks. I don't think we saw that from this body and up here. I think this seriousness with which we approach this is the very seriousness that this issue deserves and that we have to continue to do. I think that as I've been listening and watching, you know, in January, we had no path forward. I think we, none of us were sure kind of how we would vote, how we would take this up, or even how we would reconcile. I mean, would seem like not just two issues, but I think there were many other ones we wanted to have dialogue on. And so I have a deep sense of gratitude and respect for Councilman Aguire and Vice Mayor Bagley for giving us a path forward. I also think you both have raised that the path doesn't stop here. And I appreciate I think Councilman Aguire, I was looking through my notes earlier. You talked about the accountability we must take as a body. And the work that this council has to do moving forward. And so I think that there is more to do, whether that is in the review process, whether that's in figuring out how to participate and engage differently with this board, we to have a role, and I think we will take up that role. I think that what we are putting forth here, and I do intend to support the motion is, I think it is transparent and those who would argue that it's not, I just respectfully disagree. I think we're bringing forth a process that allows for not only the board but also more of the public to be a part of this conversation. I think we are putting forth something that allows us to be accountable and use multiple tools in the toolbox while leaving space to explore if we need to add others out of future date. And I think it is responsive to what we are hearing from our community And I think what is needed and so with that there has been a motion and a second and is there any other discussion? Councilman can staff Lee out to me. Yes, Councilman Chapman. Can staff Lee out to me where exactly is number two in this ordinance? As I go through it, I want to make sure I'm reading kind of how we are talking about what that scope is. I think I'm looking at it. It's in the auditor's ordinance under four dash one that six are So it's attachment to it's attachment to Section what section two dash four the section. What section? 2-4. I'm sorry it's under. Yeah. Uh-huh. 2- . . . . . . papers and other evidence necessary to perform its duties, the AIPA is unable to obtain production, may apply to the Alexandria Circuit Court for a subpoena, Duce's T-Gum, compelling the production of such books, papers, and other evidence. And the court may have had good cause, shown causes the pina to be issued. Further questions? Uh, I'll say a couple words, if that's okay. Yes, I'm gonna go to you and then Councilwoman Green. Okay. You know, I appreciate the work. This has been a process, right? Going back from its inception, where I think not only council, but also community, we're trying to make sure they understood what the goal was and what the details were to recycle. I believe when we first put this forward, I think that was kind of the probably one of the first opportunities the community had really had to have a discussion of that type. And of course it came off the heels of national movements and conversations as well. But to cut to the chase, I do appreciate that my colleagues have told that they're sleeves to pull out the major recommendations and discussion points. And as I told a number of people that asked me, I, for the number first recommendation, I fully agree that council should be involved if there's an impasse, particularly again, it is our senior, one of our senior leaders within our government organization, one that we hire and fire. And so I certainly understand the board wanting to be fully independent, but I guess in my time on council, I have seen pretty much any issue within the bounds of this city fall along the shoulders of council. It could be school items that we talk about, funding issues, could be redistricting. We're gonna get emails, we're gonna have conversations. And so if there is an impasse between any of our bodies that we have put together, I believe that we should have the ability to have a conversation and weigh in. Again, I think with number two, I do appreciate all of the various examples. I think I am challenged by the idea that if something does happen, we are not in a place to make changes midstream. If an incident happens and we feel that we should have full subpoena powers, and that would have been something good for that example, we're not going to sit up here. Well, let me say this, it will be very bad if we sit up here and change midstream and say now we need to have full subpoena powers or to be able to get to the place that we're going. As I said, and I'll reiterate that I believe giving our folks, I'll probably beat up in the public about this again, but I believe in giving our staff more than what they need. And having them use their judgment to whether or not to use it. I certainly understand the struggle that is in the community and the power that the city has to compel people to cut their grass. But we have a lot of powers within this organization. But we rely on a number of very well-qualified people to use it or not use it. And I'll be honest with you in the public. I don't know if there is the support to try to amend this to reflect a difference of opinion on number two, and if we actually have the votes to do that, I will say however, with one of the main goals from a number of us who were there at the very beginning to get this moving, I'm willing to support the motion. But the challenge for me is still number two, so that hasn't, it's not something I'm willing to just dismiss, but I don't know if a no vote signals that we actually get that changed. Because I don't think we have frankly the support to do so. Councilman Green. Thank you everyone. I am an agreement with Councilman Chapman. On number two, I'm just not fully there. I want to start off by, and I will keep this very brief, but a lot of emotion has gone into this and a lot of passion. And it's been hard, but we were elected to make these hard votes. And I just want to say, we've thanked everyone, past councils at High Committee. My subcommittee appreciate you so very much for the work you put into it. Councilman Aguieri and Vice Mayor Bagley. But overall, after thinking everyone else, I wanted to thank you, Amaratu, because you have been through so much. Just when you said June of 2024, when you came on board doing this and what has transpired since then, I just wanna fully thank you. And we wanna want to get you and the board up and running. I mean, I think we're close to that point, but I do want to reflect that I do still have issues with number two, and I wanted to put that on a record, but just to thank you for the work that you've put into this. And you've done it with Grace, so thank you. Thank you. Okay, there has been a motion and a second. And I think we've had sufficient discussion. So all those in favor of the motion to approve on second reading. This is a rule, I'm sorry, it's a rule call them. Then Madam Clerk, please call the rule. Councilman Geary. Aye. Councilman McPike. Aye. Mayor Gaskins. Aye. Vice Mayor Bagley. Councilman Chapman. Councilman Elnubi. Nay. Councilwoman Green. Nay. Okay. The ordinance passes five to two. Madam Clerk. Oh, I'm sorry. Councilman Aguario. Apologies, but just since this motion has passed, I would like the group to give us a report out in a year just to see where things are. If you include some things like how many times you've used a subpoena duke steak on, if you saw a need to subpoena individuals. So I don't know how my colleagues feel I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. with all members of the council to make sure the report has the relevant data that people are seeking. Okay. Madam clerk, next item. Close session. Okay. Councilman Aguirre. Madam Mayor, I move the city council convening closed executive session, pursuant to Virginia code section 2.2-3711A7, consultation with legal counsel, pertaining to actual litigation, involving an employment matter, where such consultation or briefing and open meeting would adversely affect the negotiating or litigating posture of the public body. Okay, is there a second? A second. There has been a motion and a second to convene in closed executive session. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed, Sayne? Aye. All right, we will now go into executive session. It's 120, so I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to get you a little bit more. I'm going to get you a little bit more. I'm going to get you a little bit more. I'm going to get you a little bit more. I'm going to get you a little bit more. I'm going to get you a little bit more. I'm going to get you a little bit more. I'm going to get you a little bit more. I'm going to get to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. 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I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. 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I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm sorry. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to move to reconvene in open session. Any opposed, St. Nay? I's habit. Councilman aegir. Madam Mayor, move the city council adopted the resolution regarding the closed executive session that was previously circulated to the council. Is there a second? All right, there has been a motion and a second to, yes, there's been a motion and a second to, yes, there's been a motion and second by Councilman McGee. This is a roll call vote, Madam Clerk, please call the roll. Councilman McGee? Aye. Councilman Elnubi? Mayor Gaskins? Aye. Vice Mayor Bagley? Aye. Councilman Chapman? Councilwoman Green? Aye. Councilman May Pipe. Aye. Okay, is there a motion to adjourn? So I'll move. Second. There's been a motion by Vice Mayor Bagley. A second by Councilwoman Green. Any discussion? All those in favor say aye. Aye. Post, say nay. All right, meeting adjourned. Thank you. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. I'm going to go to the next day. their appearance traveling to market with Corson Buggy. We raised on our farm and that farm has been in our family for 325 years. My family's had a farm in Hampshire County prior to the revolution. Now it's my grandfather's great-grandfather that started that. We also... five years. My family's had a forum in Hampshire County prior to the revolution. Now it's my grandfather's great-grandfather that started that. We also have a great contingency of really need arts and crafts vendors.