All right. All right. Call to order the March 31st 2025 meeting of the historic preservation commission. First on the minutes. We have Quorum. Yes, we're good and approval of the minutes Do I have a motion to approve the minutes from the January 27th meeting? I'll make a motion I have seconds Thank Shana all those in favor say aye aye all those opposed motion carries Next under new business public relations and education committee report did they meet Okay. Okay. Did the District Committee meet? We did not. The COA committee did meet. Sean, would you like to tell us what's on there? We have two items on here. The first one is 1123 South Street. This is an old stone wall where the middle has been bulging for a while. Our committee met with the owner. Last month gave some ideas and they came back. So now they're going to per recommendation of the COA committee remove the part that's bulging and then kind of play it by ear with how the rest of the wall acts. Dan, Mr. Kaiser. John, or John Miles, show us pictures. Oh, yeah. You have the power of this Coral. Sorry, I'm trying to go through here especially again. So yeah, as Sean said, this was a request to demolition. Originally it was the entire wall. They met with the COA Committee in February they had decided to table that one come back with a revision which is just to remove the bulging portion we went out and measured it's about 80 to 90 feet that'll be removed it'll keep approximately 15 feet on the east side and almost 20 on the west and then here's some pictures of the property. So this is Looking north that is the kind of eastern edge into there that that will remain This is the facing north and Then That's the portion that will remain and then here you can kind of see So you'll start at this corner corner, you'll go 15 feet down and that's where the demolition will begin. And it's bulging for about 80 feet and then they'll remove and cut and regrade the property. And the stones remain on the property. And the stone will remain on the property, yeah. And Dan, do you have anything? On the west end, did you you say what was the distance you said? 18 to 20 feet roughly and We went out and measured it and that was pretty close to where it was cut That's just to the property line. That's not counting the mills property to the west. Right. Yeah, I don't I didn't know The tree as much again as Can be retained as possible Yeah Yeah, so this tree was to the 18 feet. Yeah, it was 18 feet to this tree. So that was approximately. And I know that tree was a complicating. Because we don't know who owns the tree. That right? I can't say. Yeah. The lower award the property honors here. If you have any questions for her as her as well. I always put enough free in. Throw it in the wall. We we recommended approval to the committee. Yep, Lord, did you want to add anything else? I think we kind of said the whole thing about. Okay. Okay. Will there any questions from the commission? So it's just to repair them. It's not. It's not to do anything new or. It's not to do anything new. It's just to remove this section that. Right. It's a bulge. Yeah. And the city engineer did make a request that the wall be addressed. Yeah. Being along the sidewalk, which is presumed public right away, that probably presents a bit of a safety issue. All right. What do I have a motion? I'll make a motion. All right. All those in favor say aye. All right. All those against motion carries. And we had one other item and I need you to go back. Okay. 208 and 210 North 11th Street. This was a project that had been started last month without coming to the commission first and so I know Dan and Miles have been communicating with the owner and I will happily let you guys explain this. Yeah so this one is a it's a bit of a doozy. The property owner the property recently changed hands The property manager had replaced two exterior doors that were not original without a COA and approval from the commission. They also replaced a wooden window that we do believe was original but covered by a storm window and replaced that with a aluminum window. After we sent a letter out, we got to have some conversations with him. He had originally submitted just the work as is. We didn't think that was acceptable. So Dan and I went and met with the property owner and Dan offered some suggestions for compromise. So what the property owner is proposing today is to remove the two exterior doors that have already been removed and replaced with aluminum pre-hung doors. There was a, and I'll show some pictures. So there was a transom that was already removed but had a window unit and was kind of set back from the original foundation. They want to remove that and replace it with a painted wood panel. And they've added a high efficiency mini split through the panel. They want to trim the pre-hung door and the transum to create a kind of sense of depth around there and with a black smooth PVC. The mini split will be covered with aluminum. The wooden window is removed and replaced with the aluminum. The property owner would like to add some muntains to that to recreate what was originally there. And with the door, those are all at 20 11th and at 210 they would like to extend that same black PVC to cover the door frame so I can show you some pictures and then I'll let Dan talk. Yeah so this is the previous conditions prior to any work being done at 208 North 11th. You can see the aluminum door there. You can see the wooden window with the storm window in front. You can see the transum in the AC unit. This is what it looks like now without any work being done. So this is the new window, the new board, the mini-split. The property owner is proposing continuing this trim up around that transom and painting that. Edmund's back here. So Sean was nice enough to paint or to sketch for us. I'm sorry it's sideways. But this is kind of what the trim will look like around the door after and the window with the button spec in. And then here is the door at 2.10 and they're just proposing to extend the trim up around that kind of paneling up there. The property owner could not be here this evening. He had an issue with his children, but Dan, if you would like to. Mr. Kaiser. Speak, sir. As per our discussion with Andrew, and I guess he's the property manager, but to meet the Secretary of Interest standards, because the original door frames were recessed in the the masonry and what he's done now is a door frame that overlaps the masonry. So to keep the same reveal lines and the same shadow lines to meet the sector of into your standards he'd have to remove all that recessed the frames, keep the frames recessed in the door frame, eliminate the trim and put the transom back in. You know the wood window, we, again for you guys to approve removal of a wood, historic wood window, we need a window survey, we need no the conditions, it's not repairable, we don't have any of that information. From the photograph I see You can see it's a true divided light wood window with an arch top So Again our sidewalk conversation was you know if we can Take what he's got there on the doors and and add some trim to make it look like the door frames recessed and the transom still there a transom and not just a flat plywood panel that since the doors were the actual doors themselves were not original the frames were probably original you know that might work and as I said and you Now my question would be as on the window since it was a original window true divided lights. I don't know with the device he's putting in are those on the exterior and the interior and between the glass. You know typically to meet historic window, there are several manufacturers that say dimensions are wide enough that you get the same look, you get the shadow lines reveals. You need to have either a true divided light or applied button on the exterior and on the interior and between the glass to get the look of a historic window. So the window is the biggest problem for me is that, and the biggest another problem there is he was notified that he wasn't supposed to be replacing stuff after he did the doors and he went ahead and did the window, even though the window was still there in the one picture. You know, so from the meeting the standards, if he was notified that he shouldn't be replacing it, and he went and did it, I think he needs to put something in there that closer resembles the historic window. The arch top frame sizes, you know, either a true wood window with true divided lights or a wood clad window with divided lights. It's difficult once the work's been done. It's just getting from just talking about meeting the standards, you know, that doesn't meet the standards. The aluminum window that's in there. Right. So it's just the door is okay. The compromise is okay compared to the window. That's the bigger issue in your opinion. adding some trim and trimming out the transom. We've got similar shadow lines, similar reveal. He wants to keep the door that size because it's wire. If he inserts the frame in between the mainstment as it originally was, he has to go to a 32 inch door instead of a 36 inch door. So for some of those reasons, you know, I see that that's a a compromise that probably needs to be made or could be made. My face is the street, not an alley, right? Yes, these all face the street. Yeah, this is a face of 11th Street. Do we know about the window divides? I don't remember if they were true on both sides of the pain. and I wonder if that's something he'd be willing to. So my understanding is that he's going to apply the exterior, not just like the strip, but actually like a three-dimensional piece, the raised rather than because you know, you can get the vinyl windows that have, it looks like electric tape, criss-cross, has no depth. But I think that was what we approved was, or not,, but recommended. Yeah. To approve was that it had to have some depth to it. Yeah. The COA committee did recommend approval with some conditions. You have them all written down, so I didn't bring them. Well, the condition, the big one was he had originally, and it wasn't in there, but he was going to change the trim of the window to follow the original arch there and Alec had recommended that that probably not occur and we just leave that as is. I think that was the big condition. My thing with that trim at the top, if you look right where you're at miles, if you look at that and he trims that out and creates an archway, then you're going to have a gap on the top side of that window and the trim. From a construction standpoint, that's what I was concerned about and maybe Dan has any further recommendations on that. But if he curves that trim, or tell me what the window, the black window, he curves that trim, then I feel like there will be a gap between the top sash and the frame of the window itself and that trim. So when I stopped over and looked at it, it looked like the depth of trim all matched. And maybe you have a different idea and I just wasn't understanding correctly. No, actually because that window is recessed in the masonry opening, that's better. If the applied trim to try to get the arch top on that, even though the sash is a rectangle, that might then get you out past the masonry and that would not be recommended. Now I don't know that adding trim to the window other than the divided lights, the Mullians, making it divided. I don't know that adding the arch trim on that is needed. Mullians are included in those conditions that I think we approve or recommended for approved, yeah. Not really. What about the fact that he is light and light dead? You know what I mean? We do have that happen from time to time, don't we? Yeah, but I mean, he also like. Well, the fact that he had been told before, the second improvement happened, you mean? And this is right down to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Enforcement has been a pronet. Yeah, I think that's an issue. It's not just us across the board, but with this home, with this building owner and property manager or people knowing that they're in a historic district, knowing what work is involved, and then they do it. And so I always tell people 90% of our problems are people doing stuff without talking to us. When they talk to us beforehand, we usually find, I mean, we have like a 99% history. It's when people do it, and then they have to come back, and then it's like, now we gotta figure out. My understanding is that we're not the only department that struggles with the enforcement issue and notification issue. Not to pull other departments under into the fire, but I will say that I sent the letter out so with the previous conditions and just the door being changed and I have photo evidence of that unfortunately I don't have a date stamp for when the window was replaced so I can't say for certain that he had received the letter it might have happened the day after I went and took the pictures and he also I finally got a hold of him after the second violation by tracking him down through I think Julie helped me and I phone call and he didn't have any idea about the letter. I'm not saying that he didn't make a violation after a violation. Right. I'm just saying that it's possible that he wasn't made aware of the violation until the second one had already occurred. I know we use beacon and it's it's the responsibility of people to put the appropriate addresses where their property when they are on beacon but I mean that's enforcement and following up and people knowing their historic district has been a chronic headache. We end up with this. And we we do send an annual letter out letting people know that they are, but once again, we don't ask for a response or we don't have any confirmation that people are receiving that, but. I try to keep an eye on, as I think many of us do, when houses are sold on the market, if we know that they're protected to notify. Yeah, and we check beacon every year to make sure that's updated, so unless it changes in between the time of us checking and sending out a letter, they will receive a letter annually. And we keep track of when those changes were made. If the property owner says, why didn't receive a letter? We'll know when. of us checking and sending out a letter, they will receive a letter annually. And we keep track of when those changes were made. If the property owner says, why didn't receive a letter? Well, we will know when we saw that change happen. So how long has the summer road been? I can't say for sure right now. I'd still, it's been more than a year than they would have received. I was the one who was saying, hey, you're in a historic. My memory's correct because I had a list of for sale. I think it was in 12. It's been a minute. But they've had at least been letters saying hey, you're in a historic district to make paintings. I mean, if it's been, the columns. The column property LLC is the owner the Stephen writer is the owner he's focus on okay, I mean I think we dealt with the the applicant or the agent Andrew Stanko and there was a conflict with someone being here to represent them tonight I guess I. I mean, rather than trying to condition this to our hearts content, maybe we should meet with them and talk about some of these final details, do you think? That's an idea. Unless people have a different way that maybe we should go forward with the application. Be one window like that is, I mean, you've really worked with them on the two doors in one window. I don't think. And this is just my. I think that we've worked in the recommendation. I think there are opportunities in the matter of the issue. I was in the meeting. But I do think. The question about the divides is the only thing I wasn't clear on. That's a liquid condition that we have through our divides and I think that we need only thing I think that's the only thing that's but the divide is the only thing I wasn't clear on. So that's, we could condition that we have true or divide. And I think that would be our- I think higher raise, more profile on both sides. It won't be the same as a true divide. But that's what we decided at the COA committee, basically. But I do think this is a good reminder that we, and I'm not saying the onus is ultimately, it's up to people that receive 12 letters respond to it, but you know just reiterates the importance of getting ahead and getting into contact and touch with people. And I don't think it was without a lack of drive. I mean, they didn't show up to me. Yep. Very. And Miles tried numerous forms of contact. So sometimes, you know, and I'm trying really hard to attribute to ignorance rather than malice. I gave up anger for less, I'm trying. So if it is the case, like Julie said, they've owned this property and they see multiple letters, is that possible to issue a fine along the approval, like because nothing's going to stop them from doing this again. My issue if we just say, okay, then they're just gonna do it again. Yeah, it's one thing if like they just purchased the house and weren't aware, but if they've received a letter every year for lots of time. Can we do something like that? I think kind of a middle ground is also to say we were willing to table your position so we can talk more. Yeah, I'm going to send the message that just we're being nice by doing that. But I just want to make sure that's the thing we did last month. Last month. This application was drawn by the applicant. Oh, that's right. So it was a technical. The South Street one was table. OK. You guys think? I think our committee already made a recommendation. I would like to explore the idea, though, of issuing a fine if we can't. I know that's probably a jacksack. I can certainly talk with the city attorney about that. Because I also have the concern that if we just, You know, we don't want to create a system where people beg for forgiveness and then do it. Because it may not be simply a side window next time it may be something significant and much harder to replace. You look front doors of that building. Yeah exactly. So that's what I'm saying. Which is the possibility of facing names as well. Yeah. Which then we wouldn't be doing a service to the East End and the rip on all those other people that have invested and come before us and done everything right. Yeah, and you opened the door to well, they did it. Yep, we can do it too. Toronto, what do you think? Well, I was gonna say it is kind of the entrance to our downtown. I mean, it's not exactly a storefront on Main Street, but you do see that side as you're coming down from upper Main. So, I mean, and how, you know, the temporary or the modification that we've suggested suggested how long is that going to last? Is it something that's going to be permanent and look good for a long time or I mean, those are my my two cents. We I know you've you know recommend approval, but if we Didn't approve we have to make the motion I mean so you know I understand that you approved it so you don't want of it It's not you can't you know there's committees Yeah, nothing's been a know, it's probably, we have a team. Yeah, nothing's been appreciated. It's just been recommended for a person. Someone needs to make a motion. We're basically, are we did it? Or maybe another all proposal, I think. Well, how about we do this? Since it seems like the big point of intent is the wind. Would it be, is there a way that we can say this stuff the doors, go ahead and move on, but the window we want you to come. You know, if that's really what the mood is. Wouldn't be that expensive to order a new window there. And Louis will find. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if that's what the commission wants to. For clarification, they are replacing this white door that's there. That's Lee. Now, that's the new door. That's the new door of the- I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that. What are they going to do with the transom to try to make it better? Frame it in with trim, the colors to concern. But that was per... But that was per the end's recommendation as a way. I think if we do decide to table this part of it and tell them, hey, the commission has more concerns. You weren't here. And I think it's great to take. I think that's my. I can make a motion to table the window till we get more information and improve the doors. For you know, instead of more information, the commission would like to see something more in line with the original, with true divide or something like that. Because that's essentially what we want. I can say that. I can say that. Continue discussion with the window, right? We can make a motion that we approve the doors as they are going to, as proposed, and the window to be more of a proper window. What, how would you say it? So is that conditional improvement? True divide. Well, then we would like to see a true divided window and then we can see it next. So we're kind of conditioning approval for the whole project or just telling them to come back? Yeah, I was going to say I don't know if it's just a project. I probably think part of it. I'll come back on the window. Michelle, does that make sense to you? I mean, I don't, you can do a conditional approval. I think right. I don't think we are. I don't, that's what I'm asking. So I know it's an amendment. It makes more sense or does. I only concern with table like that. And we, I don't think we need table, so we can take some action according to Julie's motion. It seems like we've done that. Like a conditional like it. Then we. Yeah, I don't think we need a table so we can take some action according to Julie's motion. It seems like we've done that. Like a condition of like you need to replace the doors are approved. The window. Need to come back with. We're appropriate. Appropriate divided window for your work and they'll have will have them work with. We have wasans and... Was that transom? Did it have like an air conditioner up there? So is it like open to the other side as well? The inside? Um... Yeah there wasn't a window there. Oh and then they're putting... Okay. The mini split is it going to go there? The mini splits are already there so you can see here and that'll be covered with a black metal Conditional so if we do a conditional which sounds like we could do a conditional approvals, right? There's an approved with amendment approved with amendments. I like that. That sounds like that's it We out this one of the choices that are in the Approved by staff or does that come back to the public? Yeah, can we can we do this to where you guys have to deal with this? Yeah, a lot of questions I'm going to have for Jackie unfortunately. Yeah, I mean we have a standard Marvin Wenda that we have broke. Right. And that's a true four over four isn't it? Well, you can get it. Or with, uh, so how about so let's just now we're just trying to figure out a word. Well, yeah, would you be comfortable approving this if we could figure out a way to make the motion where we approve this part and you deal with that part without coming back to the meeting? I mean, I'd like to Dan for staff approval. Okay. What do you think, Dan? Yes, I'd be glad to negotiate with them. Yeah. If there needs to be some compromise, it's gonna come back to you guys. good enough. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we're almost getting to the end. Julie, they cut into some. I've got a man in the... A man in the... I've got a... I'm going to make a motion to approve with amendments. Menace being the window. Right. Do a second. Wonderful. They will work with them. The men would be in the work with them. And if he has any issues, then we'll have to bring him back. I'm very good. All those in favor say aye. Aye. All those against. Very good motion pass. It's thank you, Julie, for helping with that. That's a good way to handle it. I got like three brain cells left. What else do you have, John? The time is here. Sorry, I'm going to the top. All right. Let me be the chance and P2 help us. Next on the agenda, Staff Report, Miles, do you have? Yes. On stuff to share with the staff report. Yay. We replaced John Collier, officially. We have Michael Senate here. So it'll be my problem starting next month. Yeah, Michael will officially be taking over historic preservation starting in April. I'll still work with him until he feels comfortable. So now the windows his problem. I'll turn. Is background. Where did you come from? Michael, we do. It's a little bit. That's a bit of us. Yeah. I've been in community development now for the better part of 20 years. Most recently I was the neighborhood services director in Juliet. I oversaw their grant portfolio and code enforcement. Before that was the city of Bloomington, kind of in the same Juliet. I oversaw their grant portfolio and code enforcement before that was the city of Bloomington kind of in the same position. I used to oversee the stellar designation for the office of community and rural affairs back in a long time ago pre-COVID so back in the dark ages. But in a short, I guess in a short stent is a town manager in Cambridge City. Community development background, a lot of project management, a lot of funding, a lot of infrastructure, some historic preservation adjacent with CDBG funds. So let me tell you an Illinois or Indiana, Bloomington, Illinois. Okay. And then Cambridge City, Indiana. Yeah. Right there. Closer to Richmond. Yeah. Thank you from where you from? Crawford's own. Actually put them county, but I am. Crawford's built metro. Crawford. Yeah. Were you a Southmont Monter or a North putt? I was not. Yeah. I started off at North Montgomery and then graduated in Athenian. So, here you go. Director, what year? 97. Yeah, I started off at North Montgomery and then and then graduated in Athenian Charger what year? 97 okay, you might know the same first Well, I'm glad you're here. Yeah, thanks So yeah, my more of you next school you're still be right my house next Yeah, yeah, I'll still be around and like when John was absent I would fill in for him. I have no problem helping out there. We're gonna think of you as we're not totally No, absolutely not and we a couple more things we did update the annual map so every all the Current local districts are represented on our annual map. We sent out our annual letter Which to remind property owners of That they're in a local district what's the way 300 letters so those went out we try to get those out in the spring to remind property owners before they start purchasing materials or projects and start kind of diving into them so we can avoid some of these situations and I'm wrapping up the certified local government report so I think I send emails out to everybody asking for some information on you. So we should be good to maintain our certified local government status. Email from him next year. Oh, you mean for the, yeah. Yep, yep, exactly. Yeah. That's a really fun way that I remember Michael's last name is that it's the mirror of tennis So tennis backwards. That's backwards. Yes No, I'm staying well. Yeah, I've been kind of juggling both, so now I just hit a new one job. Yeah. You're like, I can't wait to be done with those people. I did it. Yeah, that's all I have. Any public comment? Motion for a German? A comment? Seconds, Vever Sayah? Aye. All right, motion carries. See everyone next month.