Hello, how welcome to the sixth session of the Communication Reports and Council Oversight Committee. It is April 1st, 2025, 12.07 pm. I'm present our council members Kakiwata, Onishi, Kirkwitz, Inaba, Villegas, Kimball, and myself, the chair of this committee, Michelle Glimba. We will take statements from the public and agenda items at this time. Thank you so much, Chair. Just noting that you do not have any testifiers in your remote sites. We do have a number of testifiers here in the Heelow Chamber. First of which is David Greenwell to be followed by Mel Venturo. David and Mel, at this time, if you'd like to come up to the testifier table, when you're ready to begin, you can just hit the green button at the base of that mic. You'll have three minutes if you could just reintroduce yourself. Oh, if you could just hit that button first. There you go. Oh, I'm good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My time runs over. Cut me off. My name is David Greenwell and I'm wearing two hats today. First, I'm here as a liquor commissioner from District 9 and secondly, as a taxpayer. In my opinion, the liquor department travel policies should not be questioned. Travel is fully funded through the department that is wholly financed through the collection of licensed fees. Not taxpayer money is being expended for this travel. As commissioners, we travel to these conferences to gain knowledge about the liquor industry and the many issues that are facing the industry and the regulation of it. For example, I've learned about various policies from other states regarding marijuana and its control. I found that in some states, liquor and marijuana control are tied together. And how these states are handling this issue. This is not something that I could have learned in Hawaii. I've learned about policies from other states regarding mixed drinks to go. And how they've dealt with the proposals and what was already discussed this issue when question first came up here, we were ready. We hear about other states, liquor problems, and how they've dealt with them, which is something you can't get here. The difference between wet and dry states, damp states, how do you transport liquor across these counties? I've always taken notes and even when we get together, we can get the back story from the speakers and presenters themselves, or have additional opportunities to have further discussions about topics that were undead and something you would not, you wouldn't have unless you were there. For myself, the benefits from this travel are akin to a high school graduate. Being able to go from school to the mainland for continued higher education. It's not just going to class, but it's immersed in a whole different environment and learning from there. This enables me to be a better prepared, serve the county as a commissioner, and who knows who and what's going on. As a taxpayer, this audit was supposed to be looking at travel and whether money was wisely spent. I think it's really hard to put a price tag on experience which you get just beyond learning. The audit seems to talk a lot of other things beyond travel, like requiring a travel policy beyond the counties. I think the director has done a good job of allocating and travel opportunities to all board and council members. To audit, action. 30 seconds, please. 30 seconds. Thank you for your time. Oh, you have 30 seconds, sir. Oh, okay. The audit mentions reappointments as a problem, because the same people have voted to the license could one day decide the violations. Hawaii County has tried to reduce the prep problem by having separate bodies to do that. Hawaii and the city county of Honolulu still have one body that hears all licensing and education cases. But I see no reason to change the charter for such an obscure point. Where did Sunshine Violations come from? Or is that a straw that someone is grabbing at? During our state conferences, which are the only times more than a majority is present, we also have a Deputy Corporation Council present who would monitor any Sunshine Law. But frankly, none of these have existed because our Board and Commission business are not discussed at this time. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Appreciate your time. Thank you so much for your time. Chair, your next test of fire is Mel Ventura to be followed by Sydney Fouquet. Mel, when you begin, if you could just reintroduce yourself, you have three minutes. Aloha, council members. I am Mel Ventura. I'm a liquor commissioner, district eight, Kailua Kona. First of all, I agree with the report that there is no waste or abuse will folk or otherwise. I'm new to the commission, so I rely a lot on the more senior members of the commission. And they are well trained and well versed and well skilled to do their jobs in large part because of these training opportunities that they have been afforded. I agree that there is some value in alternate delivery channels of training such as virtual and online training. But what these channels lack is the opportunity to network with your peers from different jurisdictions which can have as much or more educational value. And these are the types of opportunities that I, as a junior member of the commission, most look forward to. And finally I just want to say as far as potential sunshine law violations, all of the unofficial time that I have spent with the commission and department members has been entirely small talk and socializing and not official business. And that is all I have. Thank you. Thank you so much for your testimony. Chair, your next testifier is Sydney Fouquet to be followed by Art Tani Gouci. Sydney, when you begin, you'll have three minutes if you could just reintroduce yourself. Sure. Aloha and good afternoon, members of this committee. Although I chair the liquor education board, I'm here today speaking on myself, from myself. I think the nature of the audits I would like to initially commend the Council's initiative to have one done. It's always good to see how an agency is performing from an external perspective. Now the essence of the auditors report is found on page 19 where it offers two conclusions relating to what this whole resolution is what, training and resource allocation efficiency. And it says, I'll quote it directly, the department's training programs appear highly correlated with its successful outcomes, particularly in maintaining up to date knowledge of regulatory developments and enhancing enforcement procedures. The training agendas outline and travel reports closely aligned with the duties expected of the departmental personnel. These programs have helped staff stay informed about national and regional best practices, leading to improved performance in regulatory compliance, public safety, and youth outreach initiatives. In other words, the department is doing a good job. Training and conferences play an important role in this performance and the resources are being allocated efficiently. The second conclusion the report made was that however the significant travel costs associated with these programs should be regularly assessed to ensure they contribute effectively to performance improvements. Now what the report doesn't say, however, it doesn't define what significant travel cost is. Is it $421, is it in the year 2020 or $63,000 in 2023 or percentage of a total of the budget? The report 21 630,000 or 633,000 or percentage of the budget, the reports conclusion that the training has resulted in positive performance and successful outcomes only confirms the efficacy of the past travel practice. Not stated, relative to travel is that the department is spending within its means. The report also recommended having a travel policy which was also confirmed by the Board of Ethics. Whether it amounts to an affirmation of current practice or not, its value would, number one, assure some measure of consistency with different administrators and two, it would provide some guidance to the council in this budgetary review process. Finally, the intangible values of conferences. And I'm sure that the council, whether you are attending a 30 seconds or visiting a sister city, true one can read the presentations online. And sometimes the networking and informal discussions are priceless, intangibles. I have attended several conferences, and I think the networking is noted by one of my peers, is indicative. I spoke to a panelist who suggested on enforcement. He suggested that we should take a less punitive and more educational approach would be more effective in the long term. Our practice we are now applying. I'm sorry Mr. Fouquet but you're three minutes or up. Thank you so much for your testimony. Chair your next testifier is Art Tani Gucci to be followed by Will O'Cabe. Art when you begin if you could just reintroduce yourself you'll have three minutes. Press it. There you go. Is it on? Yeah. Morning Chair Goliambai and committee members. My name is Art Tani Guchi, former chair and current commissioner on the Lerker Commission. As a former auditor, I welcome audits and view them as a helpful tool to improve. I was pleased to see that there were no meaningful violations cited in the audit and would like to address a few items. During my working career, my company consistently sent all levels of employees off island for training. Although costly, we viewed it as essential to maintaining and strengthening our teams. The purpose of course was for education, but also to establish relationships and contacts with peers. When I first joined the commission, my knowledge of the liquor industry, other than consumption, was very limited. Attendance to conferences, revital, in educating me in the industry. I disagree with the auditor's comments, training and travel are not interchangeable with reference to the education of commissioners and board members. These are volunteers and the department's efforts to educate them within all aspects of the industry provides a stronger commission and board that benefits our community. I strongly support the ability to serve consecutive terms on the commission and board which is our current policy under the county charter. The knowledge gained over the years and contacts and relationships made are invaluable. The auditor's comments that experienced persons training diminishes is not accurate as there are constant changes within the industry. Comparison of travel percentage of budget in the report is outlined and deemed significant. However, nerf percentage stated was an acceptable percentage. As a taxpayer, I would definitely like to see scrutiny of every penny of county funds expanded. And as you know, the liquor commission does not use county funds. The audit refers to the department having no written travel policy, but states that the department follows the county travel policy. It does not reference the percentage of county departments that have a specific travel policy, which would justify their recommendation. I consider the questioning of the director's judgment regarding travel priorities to be a form of micro management. Academic theories do not always work in actual practice. Our department is a role model in the state and recognized by national organizations as well. Consistent compliments and words of envy by other counties makes me extremely proud. Our director and department are doing an excellent job and should be used as a model to help our partners within the country. Thank you. Thank you so much for your testimony. Chair, your last testifier here in the council. The Hilo Chamber is Will O'C. Will, when you're ready to begin, you'll have three minutes if you could just reintroduce yourself. Is it on? Yes. OK. Good morning, Dr. Inaba and members of the council. Thank you for appointing me two years ago. I didn't know that I'm going to be coming before the council to talk about this particular issue, but I believe that the audit report is healthy. As a former managing director, it is important to note that the oversight committee is a responsibility of the council to review things like this. I look at it as I wanted to just say did all what everybody said. As the chair of the President, Licker Commission, it is important to note that training is very important. As council members, you attend state council meetings, trips to the mainland for state wide leadership meetings and things like this, which is very helpful. The dialogue and the opportunity to have the up, to be able to discuss things with other council members or people in the legislature are very important for the benefit of the members of the county. And I think that it is important to understand that, you know, we are here as a, we're volunteers. The people on the liquor commission or any commission are volunteers on the public. Most of us are retirees, not all of us, but there are benefits. Benefits, if you change ideas to be able to look at the new trends that are happening around the country. There is no malfeasance in this report. It doesn't say anything about that there was any wrong doing what the commission is doing. Talked about things like trying to look at a policy. Is it the commission's responsibility to look at the policy, to discuss it with the executive branch in this particular commission? If that is so, then the commission can address those kind of things. We are able to, as a citizen's oversight review, just like you, we have the the opportunity to do that And I think that our CEO has done this already There is no indication in the ethics commission that found that the things that the This particular commission is doing is unethical so 30 seconds, please thing is that, I want to thank you for the doubt that you're doing. And give the commission an opportunity to address some of the concerns that you might have. So we may be able to improve the situation. Thank you. Thank you so much for your testimony. Chair at this time, those are all the testifiers you have. Thank you, Relly. Good. You read in the communication, Mr. Clerk. Communication 178. Performance audit 202501. Department of liquor control. Lickr commission and liquor control adjudication expenses from County Auditor Tyler J. Banner and dated March 7, 2025. Transvening the above audit report pursuant to section three dash 18D, two of the Hawaii County Charter. Chair motion to close file on communication 178. It's been moved by Council member Inaba and seconded by Council Member Houston to close file on communication 178. I believe Mr. Banner, you have a presentation if you'd like to come up. I'm going to put present the findings and recommendations from the performance audit of travel expenses at the County-poise department of liquor control. This report is number 2025-01 and was published March 7, 2025. We're going to present this a little bit differently today than we've done with some of the reports in the past. We're going to put the information on the backboard and see if you can follow along without information. So why we conducted this audit? We conducted this audit at the request of council after deliberation and the unanimous approval of resolution 54824.2. That resolution requested our office conduct a performance audit of the department of liquor control to ensure the efficient allocation and utilization of travel funds and compliance with section 281-17.5 Hawaii Revised Statutes. Scope, the audit was conducted from July 2024 through October 2024 to examine travel expenditures and budget data from fiscal year 2019 through 2024 and compliance with commission and board terms were from January 2017 through June 30, 2024. The audit did not cover areas outside of travel expenses and statutory compliance administration, the grant funds, or other functions of the Department Board of Commission. Objectives are audit subjective, sought to answer the following questions. Is the Department of Liquor Control and Compliance with Hawaii Revised Statute Section 281-17.5? Specifically, did the fees collected by the liquor commission have a direct and proportionate relationship to the cost and expenses incurred by the department. How effectively are travel funds being allocated and utilized within the Department of liquor control and is the travel budget for the department liquor control and adjudication board justified and appropriate. Are the management practices of the Department of liquor control related to travel, transparent and accountable to the Do the departments internal controls and financial reporting mechanisms ensure integrity, efficiency and proper governance? Our methodology included data collection analysis, compliance and governance assessment, travel and training review, observations and management practices, reviews of the function of the department, and throughout the audit, we remained mindful of waste, fraud and abuse. We conducted this audit in accordance with generally accepted government auditing standards. These standards require that we plan and perform the audit to obtain sufficient and appropriate evidence to provide a reasonable basis for our findings and conclusions based on our audit objectives. We believe that evidence obtained provides a reasonable basis for our findings and conclusions based on our audit objectives. As a result of the audit we've made a total of five recommendations. Three of the recommendations were made to the department directly. Two of the recommendations are being made to Hawaii County Council. So after debriefing and discussion, we ask within a reasonable timeframe that this body submitted a point one to this communication to serve as its management response and plan of action. Because there are recommendations being made directly for Council's consideration will spend a little bit of additional time on the debris thing. We'd first like to think the Department of Likker Controls unrestricted access to information, personnel, and coordination throughout the audit, specifically communication with the Department's accountant and the Board of Commission Secretary was exceptional. In response to our audit, the Department expressed general disagreement with the findings and recommendations which will discuss in greater detail. So moving to definitions. Organizations that the Department of Likker control belongs to. CAP, the Center for Alcohol Policy, Educates Stateholders on Alcohol's Unique Regulations, Regulation Needs, Promotes Respons promotes responsible use and supports policy through research. NABCA, the National Alcohol Beverage Control Association, it helps to manage alcohol distribution and ensure public health, safety, and regulatory efficiency. The NCSLA, the National Conference of State Likker Administrators, encourages consistent, effective state alcohol laws in coordination with federal agencies, and the NLEA, the National Liquor Law Enforcement Association enhances liquor law enforcement through collaboration, training, and efforts to reduce alcohol-related harm. Our introductory section chapter one, we provide significant background information. What's the purpose of the department to regulate the manufacturer importation, sale and consumption of intoxicating liquors and to ensure compliance with state and county law enforcement. What's the department's mission to promote health, safety and welfare of the general public by regulating the importation, manufacture, distribution, sale and service of intoxicating liquors? Department overview, the authority is established under county charters 7-3.1. Leadership and oversight, director of the department is appointed and removed by the commission. The responsibilities include servings that departments administrative head, providing administrative support to the commission and board, and investigating liquor law violations. The liquor commission consists of nine members, one from each council district, appointed by the mayor and confirmed by the council, and their are to adopt liquor regulations, approve or deny liquor license applications and oversee liquor related governance. The liquor board consists of five members appointed by the mayor and confirmed by council. Their responsibilities are to hear complaints and determine violations and to impose fines or punishments this per law. Members' selection in terms are explained in charter section 13-4. So key takeaways, the Department of Commission and Board are separate but interdependent bodies. The Commission sets rules and handles licensing. The Department enforces laws and supports the Commission and Board and the Board adjudicates violations. The roles create a system of checks and balances, though they're spending including travel is interconnected in merit scrutiny. Next, we want to take you through some of some expenditure analysis. You're going to note a dashboard appended in complement to the report on our department webpage. We're going to take you there now. All right, so if I can draw your attention to the screen for the folks in Chambers today, I'm sorry you're going to have to crank your neck a little bit. We're going to start looking at the destinations page. Come. Excuse me. It's not showing. It's a little about something. It's in the back. Yeah. I think that's what I said about that. You can see on the far left that there are several filters. You can select. We're going to start, excuse me, let me just backtrack. We're going to start and look at the destinations page compiled from geospatial and expenditure data. So you can see on the far left, that there's several filters. You can select and isolate a. We're going to start, excuse me, let me just backtrack. We're going to start and look at the destinations page compiled from geospatial and expenditure data. You can see on the far left that there are several filters. You can select an isolated specific group of travelers, or you can filter by different periods of time, either fiscal or calendar year. You'll know what are called cards below the filters, and those are values that will change when you make a filtered selection. For example, if we select the liquor commission, you'll know to change in the traveler account, the number of distinct events and expenditure that match the group. The filter affects other visualizations on the page, including a middle table, which shows corresponding city and state destination. The event count shows how many events were held in a location, Phoenix, for example, hosted two events, and in the expenditures column, we'll show how much the department or selected group spent in total to that destination. You can mark the eraser if you want to unselect the filter. You can select an item on the table simply by clicking on it or multiple selections if you press and hold the control key while making your selections. You can also double click the item to unselect it. So looking at the map view, you can see the destinations, the bar charts, height, and the line colors are scales that correlate to the expense of an event. If you hover over the items on the map, some additional tool tip information is displayed. Looking at the map, you can see the largest expenses are attributed on island activities, around 60,000, followed by a Wahoo, 33,000, and looking to mainland travel. You'll see the highest expenses were Phoenix, 27.5, Orlando, 24.9, Memphis, 21.3, and Washington DC, 18.9, and Oklahoma, 18.7, which round out the top five. Primarily, the screen is valuable to visualize a pervasiveness and the costs associated with travel. So now that we have the mechanics explained, we're gonna try to move a little faster. In the next totals by position, filters are roughly the same, cards are the same, and the middle table breaks down events by job role or position. So here's where you can start to make some observations and evaluate if equitable distribution of resources is happening. So I'll do a quick comparison, for example, the staff investigators versus liquor commissioners. I'm selecting this because the number of events are attended are so closely at 19 and 20. So for the investigators, there were 10 travelers who attended 20 distinct events where at least one investigator was present at a total cost of $31,973.52. The commission by comparison had 16 travelers at 19 distinct events at a cost of $77,905.54. So 60% more travelers, one less event attended, a cost of 143.66 or 2.44 times by investigators the investigators expenditures. So why would we have a difference? If we look again at the table, we can observe a couple things. For investigators, we see that a lot of the events are attended locally, 16 are in state and four on the mainland. Investigators appeared 42 times at 20 events, which is an average of 2.21 investigators per event. By comparison, where the investigators are primarily attending events on island, the commissioners are traveling significantly more to the mainland, with only six of the events being held in state and the remaining 13 being held out of state, where each event is generally at a higher cost. Additionally, commissioners appear 56 times over the 19 events, 14 more than the investigators, and the party size averages slightly larger at 3.11 people per event. This is one example and several comparisons can be made by accessing the dashboard on our website. So now we're going to move on to a travel by unique role page. The page we just left grouped everyone together by their position title, and this page offers something more granular. In the bar chart at the each traveler is assigned a unique number based on the number of the number of the number of the number of the number of the number of the number of the number of the serving first as a commissioner and later as a board member or a staff member took a promotion. Their travel expenses are split and reported separately under each role. This allows us more accurately analyze how travel resources are distributed across different functions and individuals and to identify whether a small group is utilizing a disproportionate share of resources. So let's look at staff. Here we can see staff travel expenses comprised 232,000 $30 and 56 cents over the five years. The top three travelers comprise $142,648 and $9 or 61.5% of the dollars allocated to staff. Examining the top six brings us to $173,880,002 or 75% of the dollars allocated to staff. This does support the prioritization of assigning resources to senior staff and the specific analysis appears to support prioritization of certain support staff over investigators and trainees. When all groups are considered the disparity gross. Looking at this in a focus mode and in descending order of expenditures, investments in the investigators don't begin to appear until slots 18, 19, 20 and 21 on the list. Investigator trainees don't appear until slot 23. No trainee investment exceeds $5,000 over the five year period. This raises questions for us about role alignment and travel prioritization priority. Finally, let's just take a brief look at the expense table. This table is ledger centric. Traveler accounts are secondary, meaning zero dollar travelers are excluded from the table. It's paid to help us to balance expenditures in the auditor compiled travel master spreadsheet to the year-over-year in Eden fresh reports So that concludes our review of the dashboard. We're going to go back to the introduction returning to the report were presented We're presenting a pie chart which shows a comparison of all county departments actual fiscal year 2324 travel expenditures Compared to their operating budget You'll note here that liquor has the slice of the pie. This doesn't mean that they travel the most and aggregate, but as a portion of their overall budget spend the most on travel as a percentage of their available budget compared to other county departments. That concludes background. Let's look at chapter two audit results. Starting with travel policy, we assessed whether the Department of Licker Controls travel policy aligns with applicable travel policies relevant laws and good governance standards. The department does not have a formal written travel policy specific to its operations. Instead it follows the county's general travel policy and relies on informal practices to determine who travels and when. Travel priorities emphasize participation in the aforementioned organizations. The department's current approach allows Boarding Commission Vice-Chairs to choose conferences first, followed by other members based on seniority. Staff may also accompany them to assist and coordinate with event organizers. The current Director Expanded Travel Participation to include Board members previously limited to the commission as a management decision to promote equity and access. The department also voluntary sought guidance from the Board of Ethics to address concerns of potential conflicts of interest since the Commission appoints the director and the director facilitates travel commitment. Excuse me if this all dates commission travel. The board found no conflict provided that the department creates and adheres to a formal written travel policy. The director in turn represented the BOE that a policy was being formalized in writing. The department's informal process, the well intention, lacks the structure and safeguards of a formal written policy. Given the department's unique position supporting both a board and commission, clear travel guidelines are essential. The reason why this matters is the Department of Development Level Policy would benefit the Department by establishing a framework for determining essential learning required by role. Consistent travel decisions, mitigating risks, and memorializing clear justification criteria. So our recommendation number one was to establish a Department-level travel policy. We recommend the department formalize the travel policy that outlines criteria for approving and prioritizing travel, including standards for reconciling and reporting expenses and reflexive departments unique responsibilities in facilitating travel for both the Board and Commission. This policy will enhance transparency and ensure legal compliance and promote equitable, accountable use of resources. All right, so next section, Council Authority and Responsibility. As part of our audit, we examine whether travel budget line items are being adequately reviewed for public purpose necessity and fiscal responsibility. Key points, the department's liquor control is self-funded through licensing fees, not general fund dollars. These fees have a direct and proportionate relationship to actual operating costs per HRS 281 must have a direct and proportional relationship to actual operating costs per HRS 281 17.5. HRS 81-17.5 limits the use of fee revenue strictly to operational and administrative costs. Any surplus exceeding 20% must be returned accredited to licensees. If the department wishes to raise fee, council and mayoral approvals required and the licensees must be notified. The director is responsible for submitting the department's proposed budget to council. Well, the department itself funded, council retains authority to adopt, amend, or reduce budget line items, including travel under charge or Article 10-5. Audit finding, despite recurring concerns over the size of the department's travel budget, the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the Department of the compromise is a general affirmation that the budget is appropriate. An adequate scrutiny increases the risk that expenditures might not align with the department's actual operational needs, which can compromise compliance with statutory requirements that reflect true costs. So recommendation number two, we recommend that the council implement a more structured review of proposed travel expenses during the budget approval, which include a clear outlines of plan travel events, anticipated attendance, written justifications, explaining the value and necessity of the trip. If the department cannot sufficiently justify as travel budget, council may choose to reduce travel allocations under its authority in charter 10-5. Training and resource allocation efficiency. To determine whether the department allocates training and travel resources efficiently, with an emphasis on maximizing value and aligning learning opportunities with actual roles and needs. Key travel points. Travel does not equal training. Travel is just one method of professional development. Training can also include online learning, in house workshops, reading materials, or mentorship often at a lower cost. Training should be targeted. Research shows individuals benefit most from training earlier in their learning curve. More experienced members gain more specialized role-specific content. Department roles differ. Department staff need training and clerical, administrative and investigative functions. Commission members focus on rule making and license approvals and board members require familiarity with legal frameworks, evidence evaluation and adjudication. So audit findings, travel opportunities are prioritized by seniority rather than travel need, potentially overlooking newer staff who would benefit the most. Training investments are not consistently aligned with the distinct roles of the department, commission and board, reducing the effect their effectiveness. Well, the department shows positive operational results, compliance checks, education, outreach, the connection between travel spending and improved performance at the commission or board level is less clear. Some board performance improved in the year without travel suggesting the need to reassess resource allocation. A rotation-based training approach may yield better returns than in the current model. Conclusions of the department has maintained a strong track record of operational success. However, its current training model means heavily on to seniority and does not sufficiently incorporate training needs or role-specific competencies, particularly for new members or those roles requiring distinct legal or technical knowledge. So recommendation number three is to implement a needs-based and role-specific training framework. We recommend the department prioritize training opportunities for less experienced individuals who need foundational training. Okay. Okay. Okay. Who need foundational training? Match training content to the distinct duties of staff, commission and board, and use cost effective alternatives, including virtual training and shared reporting where appropriate. This approach will ensure travel and training investments deliver the highest return by strengthening the right skills in the right roles at the right time. Boarding Commission membership. To assess whether service on both the liquor commission and the liquor adjudication board could present conflicts of interest or limit public participation, key points board and commission exist to promote independence oversight, public engagement and diverse representation in government. Charter 13-4 sets term limits and confirms that reappointment to the same body requires a two-year waiting period. However, there's no restriction on individuals transitioning immediately from the liquor commission to the adjudication board advice versa. This issue is unique to counties like Hawaii and Maui, which have separate bodies for liquor licensing, commission and adjudication board. Well, other counties, Honolulu and Kauai use a single body where reappointment rules apply more strictly. So, audit finding, uh, members can move from one role to the other without a break in service. While this may support continuity and reduce appointment delays, it may also limit opportunities for broader community community participation, reduce the diverse viewpoints, and create the perception of insider decision-making. Why this matters, back-to-back appointments across quasi-judicial bodies, licensing and adjudication may compromise the intended independence of these functions and limit diverse civic engagement. Recommendation number four, we recommend that the council consider, and we use word very deliberately. Introducing a charter amendment to prohibit immediate transitions between the liquor commission and liquor adjudication board and vice versa. Recording a two-year cooling off period between appointments to preserve impartiality and open participation. This change would bring the policy in line with the spirit of existing term limit rules and help to promote broader civic engagements. And I just, I would just reiterate that we almost never use the word consider because it's very easy for any audit to consider and outright dismiss the recommendations that are being made here. But this is a recommendation being made to council and so you have to decide whether or not you have the appetite to push something like that forward in the charter. So we did use that word. All right, so COREM and Sunshine Law compliance audit objective to determine whether board and commission members traveling together risk violating Sunshine Law by reaching COREM and potentially discussing board business outside of a properly noticed public meeting. Key point Sunshine Law HRS 92 ensures government transparency by requiring that meetings, deliberations and decision making processes be open to the public with limited exceptions. Public interactions under the law allow a small number of board members to attend events or hold discussions under specific conditions. And it gets more restrictive as more members attend up to the point where they reach full quorum to travel and engage in discussions related to board business. So quorum risk, when a quorum is present, even casual or unintentional discussion of board business can trigger a sunshine law violation. It's a heightened concern for small bodies like the Likker adjudication board, which only has five members when it's fully staffed. Audit findings, COREM was reached during travel nine out of 47 of the events over the five year period, raising compliance concerns. Gaps identified there were 12 instances where members had not received sunshine law or had no recollection of receiving sunshine law training 13 without ethics training or 12 without having received either. No travel debrisiefings are recorded. So despite expensive travel, there were no debriefings or post travel reports added to the meeting agendas. This limits transparency and the opportunity to share knowledge with members who did not attend. Why this matters? Reaching quorum during travel combined with a lack of training increases the risk of unintentional violations of sunshine law and ethics. Missed opportunities to share knowledge from conferences diminished the value of travel expenditures and reduce the broader benefit to the public. So recommendation number five is two parts. To ensure transparency and compliance with the reporting requirements, five, a limit travel party size restrict board and commission attendance at events to less than the quorum to reduce sunshine law risk. When a larger group must attend, coordinate with the Office of Corporation Council to issue event-specific legal guidance to prevent violations. And then also provide regular training, work with the Office of Corporation Council to ensure annual sunshine law and ethics training for all board and commission members. This training is essential for promoting accountability and preventing inadvertent noncompliance. And we'll also say that speaking back to the instances, the 12 and 13 instances of ethics and sunshine law not being provided, that is a primary responsibility of corporation council and not the department. So don't mean to infer that the department is wholly their elective duty when we made that, that So, chapter 3, fraud waste and abuse. No fraud waste and abuse. No fraud waste or abuse or ongoing investigations were reported by the department that would impact the audit. Waste refers to the careless or inefficient use of public funds or resources. No willful misuse was found. The audit identified inefficiencies in how travels manage, particularly with the practice of sending more travelers than it's necessary and prioritizing senior members with limited added benefit. Though travel is funded by liquor license fees, not general fund dollars, these are still public funds and they must be used responsibly. The current approach lacks a strong cost benefit evaluation and a more structured travel review process is recommended to ensure expenditures aligned with the public interest in departmental and departmental goals. Reminder that fraud, waste and abuse can be reported confidentially through the auditor's office using the contact information provided in the full report. So in conclusion, the audit objective takeaways found areas for improvement in compliance governance and travel resource allocation. Compliance with HRS, the department must ensure or liquor license fees directly tied to the actual operating costs. The director proposes the budget and counsel reflects agreement that the plan is appropriate. Regular assessment is essential to avoid feed misalignment. Travel fund effectiveness, travel spending is high. It's not always a justify or aligned with roles. The current system favors seniority, over need, or benefit. A more targeted role-specific approach or greater use of cost-effective alternatives is recommended. Management practices that Department follows County Protocols for Authorizations will say that all requests for exemptions and exceptions or REEs and post reports required to be submitted to the mayor's office were on file without exception. Still, the reporting lacks a formal department level travel policy, establishing such a policy with clear internal controls would improve consistency oversight and accountability. So summary of the department's management response, and you can read this in the report for yourself. The department of liquor control response does not directly address the audit specific findings or recommendations. Instead, it broadly defends its performance and the value of travel spending. The key themes are self-funding and fees. The Department emphasizes self-funded travel, self-funded status, and reducing licensing fees, suggesting the travel costs are justified if licensees are paying less overall. Travel is an investment. Travel is framed as a professional development tool with anecdotal benefits such as networking and exposure to other jurisdictions, mission and performance. The response highlights public safety efforts, pandemic response and licensing efficiency to illustrate overall effectiveness, training approach, management, defense, current practices, emphasizing knowledge sharing by senior members and diverse training formats. It does not address concerns about prioritization or alignment. Consecutive service, support to dual service on the commission and board for continuity without addressing the audits called for a cooling off period. So the conclusion was a response underscores the department's broader mission that lacks direct engagement with audit findings or proposed reforms and compliance transparency and training alignment. Our rebuttal to their management responses that we appreciate that departments detailed response and recognizes efforts to support licensees during COVID-19, maintaining low percentage fees and promoting community welfare through proactive education and harm reduction strategies. These accomplishments are commendable and contribute to positive and a public positively to public service. However, management's response largely does not address the specific findings or recommendations in the audit. Instead, offers general statements that well well intended are not responsive to the key issues raised. Reframing the question misses the point. The audit simply does not simply ask if too much money was spent. Rather, it asks if training funds were used efficiently, equitably, and an alignment with statutory obligations and department needs. The difference isn't semantic. The concern is not the volume of spending alone, but how those funds are allocated, who benefited, and whether the spending produced measurable roll appropriate value. The audit acknowledges that the department is self-funded but affirms that public accountability still applies as the funds are derived from mandatory licensing fees which must maintain a direct and proportionate relationship to operating cost per HRS 281-17.5. Siding reduction percentage fees does not absolve the department from evaluating whether all categories of spending particularly travel travel or justified by demonstrable need and benefit. General value statements do not substitute for a structured evaluation. The anecdotal benefits of travel, including exposure to practices and other jurisdictions and informal learning, there's sight visits, may be helpful, but this doesn't substitute for a structural needs-based training framework. The audit does not dispute the value of travel in principle. It recommends that travel be targeted based on role-specific needs and experience levels, not seniority or availability. General claims of travel being an investment or helping with informed decisions are unsubstantiated without evidence of performance improvements directly attributable to specific travel events. The response ignores key findings. The management response does not address the following court audit findings. Quorum reached during travel, increasing sunshine law risks, lacking lack of foundational sunshine law and ethics trading for members, no formal department level travel policy, no agenda debriefings on post travel, boarding commission member overlap, and training allocation based on seniority. Charter compliance versus governance best practices, the department correctly notes that the charter allows for service on the boarding commission. The audit doesn't challenge the legality about raises a policy concern about back-to-back service, limiting diversity and broader public engagement. Recommending a cooling off period is a government's improvement, not a legal indictment. The department's performance does not exempt it from accountability. We agree that the department operates a critical regulatory function and it's supported licensees through challenging times. But success in some areas doesn't negate the need for oversight and improvement in others. The department ended with the adage that if it's not broken, don't fix it. This is inappropriate in the context of public auditing, which is inherently for looking proactively, proactively and preventative, not reactive. Our role is to identify areas where efficiency, compliance, equity, and transparency can be approved, not just where failure occurs. So, in closing, we acknowledge that the Department's accomplishments and its commitment to public service, however we respectfully assert that the management response doesn't substantively engage with the audits, evidence findings are offer corrective actions in response to the recommendations provided. We stand by our audit findings and reiterate that adopting the audits recommendations will enhance not only the compliance and accountability but also public confidence in the department's stewardship of funds collected from the regulated community. We thank you for your time today, Council. That includes my presentation and I just turn it over to Council and the department for their discussion. Thank you, Mr. Paner. I will open it up up but I guess I would Director Tikasi, an opportunity to... Can I give you a... Oh, sorry. I'll give Director Tikasi an opportunity to discuss the findings as well. Good afternoon to the members of the council. Thank you for having us here today. First of all, I'd like to actually thank Mr. Banner for his role in this. We had disagreements, yes, but I think he conducted his self and his staff very professionally and we learned things about ourselves as well going through this process. I don't think we were quite as thorough in the presentation in terms of all the charts and graphs, but we tried to cooperate with him as best as possible. And we thank him, and we did learn something from maybe a dinkamon in our conclusion. But things such as the travel policy where in the process of adopted one now along with our commission and board members at Corporation Council, we'll should have that out shortly. things like the presentation of those reports to our members. In accordance with the county's policy, we do create a travel report after every event. Those were shared with not only the mayor's office but with the board and commission members. So we didn't have a formal line item in our meetings about it, but we did share them with our membership. But going forward, we will include them in our, and we, in fact, we've already started going forward. We will have a line item in our agenda to receive those reports and have the members ask questions if they wish. Thank you, Mr. Takasi. Members? Council member Inoba. Thank you very much, Chair. Mr. Takasi, so I believe October 9th, you folks went to the Board of Ethics. So it's been five months now since that meeting. And when exactly do you folks plan to have that department specific travel policy? We have a draft now. I still haven't gone to our commission or board with it, but I guess in the next couple of months, we should have that. I'm kind of at a loss, actually, as to, you know, I can't sit there and say, okay, I can't think of a good policy, you know, right off. So it's been kind of a work in progress to try and not only describe what we do, but trying to establish what it is that we should be doing. All right. And have you reached out to the auditor's office to get some recommendations on what that policy may look like? No, I don't think we said that. Okay, so we could do that. Okay, I mean the auditor is recommending that so I'm assuming that there's probably some standard policies that exist elsewhere that could be tapped into if you folks were to go and seek that advice. Okay, that's a good suggestion. And then in terms of this dashboard, Mr. Banner, just so that I'm understanding it correctly, you showed different positions and the total, does this dashboard cover, is it four years or five years worth of travel? Five years worth of travel. It's good. My goal is fiscal and it would be... There would be a cutoff. You know, we would run six months to six months throughout a calendar year. So you can drill down on it and expenditures by calendar year as well, but there will be a cutoff in the beginning and then. Okay, so if I'm looking at this correctly, the liquor control, there's three positions, there's the director, the liquor control admin officer, and the liquor control licensing officer. Those are the top three staff positions who have traveled the most. Is that correct? That's correct. Okay. You know, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that travel is a necessity. We all travel. Some for some for training, some for sister city activities. I think what this liquor audit is showing though is that there's what I would say is excessive. It's $78,000 just for your travel director Takase and for and four and a half years. That's more than some people at the county make and I think having this policy that really highlights who needs to know and sending people based on a need basis, rather than seniority and allowing chairs or vice chairs to choose versus. I don't think those are things that are unreasonable recommendations. They're sensible. And regardless if it's coming from the general fund or not, it's still public money. So I'm hoping we'll agendaize a communication with your department in a couple of months to see that you folks do have this travel policy, but just looking at the spending here, I think the recommendations are justified, they're reasonable and they are able to be attained. So I'm hoping that with what we have before us, the recommendation that the auditor has for us in terms of looking at membership, that's something that the council can seriously consider. But as we head into the budget season, maybe we can work together to figure out what is a realistic amount of travel. Because I don't think what we're seeing here, almost 80,000 just for you is reasonable. And thank you to the auditor for putting together this dashboard. it does highlight and help to pick apart not just per person but over time what things are looking like and especially for the public I'd like to point out no other department is so funded like this with the Board of Commission who oversees the director's employment with the county. So whatever can be perceived here I think we just want to make sure that director you're in a good place and the travel that you and your team and the members of the Commission and the adjudication board this travel is justified and when we have that policy you know we can we can and have a little bit more confidence right now. I don't have that confidence and I've been bringing it up every year as part of the budget process. So I'll be reaching out to your office, but I can't support continued funding of $124,000 specific to travel moving forward, especially after we've been provided all of this evidence by the county auditor. Do you have anything to add Director Takase? No, not specifically. We've tried to provide, especially for our senior staff, the opportunities to get out because I'm not going to be here forever and I anticipate that they will take over. So we've had a few setbacks in last year. Brandon, who's our access to deputy, has had several health issues, which he was scheduled to go to things, but he ended up not going. So I kind of just took his place in them. I think that accounted for something. But we recognized that we were self-funded, but we also have been given a great opportunity to manage our own budget. That's why we do other things, and it's not really part of this thing, but we try to give back to the county because we know that we're in a unique position, but, you know, and a lot of those things we've learned from other areas, you know, and as much as we can support the county we do, but that's not really here there for this audit anyway. Okay, and let me just ask one question. Do you have any strong opposition to any of the recommendations being proposed here? Well, two of them. One, the county charter marriage, that's up to you folks to do, but I don't think it's been a real problem. And all of these commissioner appointees have to go through the mayor's office and then come to the council. So I think it really could be addressed at this level. I was a corporation council but I'm kind of low to creating more rules and regulations if it's not really needed. And I think you could handle that at the lowest level. It's really when they come to the council for approval, you can look at those things. For myself personally, as the administrative officer, I appreciate the members that come back because we've invested a lot of money in them. They know a lot more once they're on the board. It takes a little while to understand all the nuances of liquor regulation. It's kind of a different beast that we see normally. And those that are willing to come back and serve, I appreciate that. So I won't say, I don't appreciate having them. I do appreciate having them come back and being willing to spend their time serving with us. The sunshine law, we will work at that. You know, I think the only ones that we kind of run up against are the state trial, state annual conferences which are really attended by all of the departments as well as all of their commissioners or board members. We don't discuss business you know that's before our commission or board at the point in time and, you know, myself, Brandon, we are aware of the Sunshine Law. We also bring our corporate councils with us to, I guess, as act as another safeguard to prevent those types of things. I think think your folks will even understand as you guys go through meetings as well. You're not really discussing the bill that came up before the council this day or that. You have lots of other things. You have a job to do when you go to those meetings or conferences. that's not necessarily talking about the business at hand. And so, you know, I can see how it could be problematic, but I think we try to stay away from those types of things. All right, so I think in closing for myself, I don't think they're saying you cannot. I think they're recommending to be mindful unless it's absolutely necessary not to send the quorum. And if you do need to send the quorum because it's necessary, they're recommending that Corporation Council be consulted to send event-specific reminders. Is that something you folks can comply with? Yes. OK. So you're not opposed to it then. No. OK. Well, we look forward to seeing you at budget, having a good discussion there, and then also being able to get that travel policy from you folks to kind of quell any concerns regarding future travel. Thank you. OK. Thank you. Councilaguata. Thank you chair. First of all thank you. Thank you auditor. Thank you director for being here. Appreciate you that you're writing and adapting this travel written travel policy and that you are now agendizing your travel reports. That's really great. I also am pretty supportive of all these recommendations. Can you say just a little bit more about why currently you do the seniority where you grant people who have seniority basically? I don't really understand why that is a way to choose who travels. Well, it was just, I guess the least, you know, the most, I just fair method of doing it, you know, and I put our chairs and our vice chairs first, and it's not always that they are the most seniors, you know, I think our liquor commission chair before last year, she was only on her second or third year in, but I recognize the importance they have to organization. So just lacking a better method of deciding that's what I came up with. I think they all know to our benefit, they haven't all been jocking to be the chairman just because of that. But that was only system. I thought would be fair. And then after that prioritizing it by based on seniority. And I'll say that we have had enough money so everybody can travel. So it hasn't been a situation where the less senior people have not been able to travel. They have all been able to travel. So that's. Okay, it's, I mean, once again, not breaking any laws or rules necessarily, but it's perception again. We've talked about this today on other issues. I think that my concern would be that some of the newer people are actually the people that need the training the most. And you don't want it to seem like you're rewarding or compensating basically people who are doing this volunteer job for their their volunteerism. So I think that's just the perception that we want to try to get away from. And so I really, number three, prioritize travel using need-based and role-specific framework makes so much sense to me. So I hope that you really will try to figure out how that can be done. And then, yeah, as far as making sure that your Corporation Council is giving updated training on a regular basis, that seems pretty obvious. Speak to me just a little bit about your concerns or maybe I heard a couple. I think you wrote a response about the two-year cooling-off period because that's one of the things that we as council are being asked to act on. Yes, so we have that in the specific boards and commissions. You can't succeed yourself. And we live with that. I guess one of the good things about having two boards is we do have people that can get off of one and jump to the other. And I've found it to be a benefit to us because they're still active. They want to stay involved. Once they have to stay out for a lot of times we lose them. They go on to other things or just having that free time to themselves again. I guess they're not interested in. As much as we try to maintain ourselves as an attractive board, even we have trouble filling our slots. So it's something that I think all boards in commission's face. But once you get people that are willing to serve, you want to kind of keep them involved. And so maybe that's selfish from our standpoint. But it's not like, I don't think we're turning down a lot of people that wanted to be on a border commission. We've had positions open. We still have, I think I have two more positions open now and we're already in April. And we've been asking for commissioners or board members and we're still waiting. So, you know, it's, I guess kind of a balancing act, you know. If there were lots of people waiting to join, I could see. But the reality of it is there's not a lot of people volunteering for these things. Thank you. Auditor Banner, can you speak to that specific issue, the one about the cooling off period, a little from your point of view? Yeah, I mean, largely what the director is saying is correct. If we were in an environment, today, where people were clamoring over each other to try and get spots on this and they were being excluded because we were pushing tenured individuals back and forth. It would be a very clear narrative. In today's environment, they do have issues of hard to fill positions and so that represents something different today. I wouldn't offer an opinion beyond just kind of that fact pattern because this is really your appetite and we're not going to advocate for it per se. So much is just recognize that there's a potential problem there and that we've proposed a potential solution. Okay. And you just said back and forth. Are you saying that some people actually go from one to the other and then back to the other again? Oh wow, okay, I didn't realize that was happening. So it could be, what is the term? Eight, what's the term on the five years? Five years and then five years on the board as well. Yeah. And then come back for another five years. OK, potentially. OK. OK. Yeah, I think we should consider at least 10 years seems like an awful lot of time to be spending on this. Maybe one jump might be OK, but maybe going back and forth and back and forth is not the way to go. That would just mean I would like to explore that a little more. Thank you both. Appreciate the work on this. Anyone else? Council member, you just. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, auditor. Thank you, director. Appreciate your time here on the depth into this. Auditor Bennett, just a question on the foundational training. Was this these are instances over the five years? Yes. Okay, so we distributed this spreadsheet to the individuals and asked them to attest if they had received that training and there those were the instances where they had said that they had not received one or the other had no recollection of having received it. Had no recollection either. Okay. Interesting. And then director at the point right now both on the board and the commission, would you say all the members have received training to this point? You know we relied on Corporation Council to but as far as they know we once they first come on One, corporation council is being good with getting together with the Board of Commission member to provide that training to them. I suspect a lot of it is they may not remember that they actually had it because they get so much stuff thrown at them right at the beginning. And then, but you would coordinate with co-operation council, yourselves, or as co that commissioner or you kind of collaborate in we will. We will inform corporation counsel when we get in a new member on and they will intern make the arrangements with them. We used to have an annual meeting into recently, and at that annual meeting we would try to conduct either sunshine or ethics training to kind of keep everybody updated. But the law hasn't really changed that much in there. So we didn't want to bore them within every year, but year, but that's one of the things that has gone away since we don't have annual meeting on our island between us and our board and commission. So that was something that was included in the annual meeting? Yes. That was one of the topics. Okay. Is that something you would maybe possibly bring back to kind of cover this instances of rebuilding? We would like to bring it back because the two things that it did cover is that kind of updates somewhere that department is and then finally was my evaluation that they would cover during them. It was really cost that kind of stopped it, I guess. The cost of it stopped? Yeah, I mean, I'm not that weird. Well, also the administration just felt like it was not. And a necessary cost. Yes. OK. Well, in terms of connecting with and, connecting work, connecting with and working with Corporation Council, you know, as sometimes we have difficulty of filling boards and commissions and there's that challenge, of course, we feel with all of our boards and commissions. But in kind of these instances, I think it would be, you know, imperative to make sure that the members have this sort of training prior to stepping forward into the first meeting. I don't know how what kind of steps can be taken there, but to make sure that we're supporting these volunteers that they take the time that they have the proper training before they kind of enter the realm. Yes, and I think, you know, we will try to double check that, you know, they do receive the training first off, but like I said, I think coefficient houses have been very good at getting to them and training. I suspect a lot of it is they were just in a data with the information in the beginning. They may have not realized that they had that training. It's very possible. But it may be worth looking at that opportunity to bring it back on an annual basis or what it may take to help remind those volunteers, the commissioners, board members, these are sort of the obligations and these are the things we have to kind of abide by. So working with Corporation Council on that would probably be a good starting point. Or we can, we could probably just add it to our gendos and. Sure, Corporation Council. Thank you, Renee. Did you want to speak to that? Thank you. Yeah, a radiation corporation council. Can I just speak to that issue of training? So it's been a standard operating procedure since I've been with the county that every board and commission member of all boards and commissions get trained individually. And the ideal is that they get trained before their first meeting. Absolutely. Yeah. So what, so then, Corporation Council, what do you make of the number of instances over five years that members are saying I didn't receive this training or don't recall? I mean, I would attribute it the same as what the director said. Maybe they forgot. It is a lot of information that go through sunshine, the policies and procedures and duties and responsibilities of that respective commission. We go through the ethics. So it is pretty extensive. But every commission member receives the same training from all attorneys in our office. Thank you. One more question for your corporation council. What would it look like to provide some sort of reminder or just general policies and procedures before these before travel is kind of taken by members. If if we're meeting quorum at these events, what does that look like from your end in sending out from your office, sending out to these volunteers, boards and commissioners, what does that look like? You know, in the past we have done like a countywide memo or a letter to departments or boards and commissions just reminding them to adhere to HRS 92. Sometimes the trainees are there at the training or conference. And so there is that added protection as well. It's something we'd be happy to do in this case if that's what this body's asking. Because it's not necessary that you know all of their trips that this particular department and the board's and commissions are taking. So they would have to work with you in terms of taking these number of trips, please help remind our members so forth. Yeah, certainly the department itself does have assigned deputy corporation council as well as the liquor commission and the liquor adjudication board. Right. Right. Thank you today. Appreciate that. Thank you director. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Councilmember Unishi. Thank you, Madam Chair. Really? Can you come back? I'm going to just add on to what Councilmember Huss is mentioned. So like you mentioned that the deputies do attend these conferences with the members and they kind of oversee making sure that there's no board business being discussed, right? I mean, we as council members, we go to different conferences and we go as a group sometimes. We're going to be having the HAC conference that's coming up in September, right? And basically at least five of us will be there. Right? In the past that I understand is that if we were doing certain things, we would have to at least let the public know that there will be a gathering of so many council members outside the scope of two being at the certain event. And then supposedly we will come back and do a report. Does it that same policy? That's certainly a policy that I'm sure the department would adopt. My recollection is when I did advise the department that that did happen upon completion of travel and attendance at a conference that the members that did attend would report to the rest of the board as to the things that they learned and materials that were provided to the members attending. So that's why I respect about the sunshine law, but then we as a council body, we kind of do the same what they're doing, right? And so, but we try to follow as much as possible where we inform the public that X amount of members are going to be there. So I think it's just oversight for you folks for the department making sure that working with your corporation council. The other thing that I have, or thank you, Rene. The other thing that I had a comment was that it's about like the recommendation where the council work with the department of obtaining more precise outlines. I think it's your commission that needs to do that, that maybe Chair Okabe, you can come up. I think that would be part of your responsibility as commissioners to oversight the department, right? Making sure spending, budget wise, you guys are not abusing, or the department and that abusing, and that to me is a commissioner's role. And so you folks, supposed to be the ones watching over where the money is going. And so, and plus, like for example, the part of water, we don't really have control. It's the members, the board of the water department that oversees the department. Right? So basically you guys are the same way. So to me, we should hold accountability upon the commissioners. And when we confirm your commissioners, we make sure we ask the hard questions of what responsibility you You're going to have this liquor commission. I mean, liquor department, I'm sorry, liquor department, right? And making sure that they understand of what the budget is. So I've gone hold the commissioners accountable that you folks make sure that you folks can help fix this problem or at least for the public's eye, right, making sure that everything is all legit. In comments, so you can turn on. As I mentioned, Dr. Inaba and members of the council, this citizen oversight review board is very important because if it wasn't addressed, this discussion would not have happened. So I believe this is a healthy discussion. As you all know, like you just mentioned, you guys are going to be going to a conference and there's many Council, you know, as a former management director, understand what the Council has to go through. And I understand that, you know, it's not just on the same part with the state legislature where they have no sunshine. Right. Right. There are only three ways the county council, I mean, the county can raise any revenue. The fuel tax, property tax, and the TAT tax. as you well know, several years ago, when the state decided to take away the TAT tax from most of it from the county, that created a deficit within the county budget. And we're faced with that. And putting the responsibility on the commissioners or any commission as an oversight committee is something that we can do. And there is a very good point. It was never addressed like this. And like I said, this particular audit was helpful for us. And we were interested. Thank you. And so hopefully the commission commission you guys can do your part in doing some adjustments to how the policies are. Thank you. I do just one more comment. I just want to mention this. Everything is increasing, right? Hotel costs, food. As you recognize, a dozen of eggs, I got to go and cost you to buy my eggs, right? So, you know, hotel costs, you know, everything is just, it's not the same if it was five years ago, right? And within the present administration now, nationally, a lot of things are going to change, you know, cars, food, property tax, everything is going to increase. So we can anticipate that the cost of everything is going to rise. Minimum wage has a very big impact on the county or the state employees as well. So put all those things into perspectives and we will try to do the same as the citizen review reports. So on that note, yes. You go ahead. Yeah. So the commission has to do the adjustments where maybe as not as much members can go to a conference because of like you mentioned the high cost of everything, right? Yeah. So that's so I'll be holding you guys accountable. Okay. Thank you. Are you? Thank you. Councilmember Kirkowitz. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Director Chair Okabe and members of the Commission and Board. Really appreciate you embracing the audit as an opportunity to learn and improve your operations. I think there's a general consensus here that you can improve what is happening within the department specifically processes and procedures related to travel. And I just want to disclose for the record that a couple of the commissioners that did testify today serve on the board for a nonprofit that I run, Melventaur and Siddhuky, but I just want to be fully transparent about that. Director, I think the travel policy is important because without it, right now, it's a little bit sticky. You have members of these bodies, the commission and the board, that have the ability to appoint you and remove you. And at least from what I gather here, you have the soul discretion around who gets to travel. So it's just, it's sticky. And we wanna make sure that things are above board. So having a written procedure is just a nice way to see YA, right? Okay. And then a couple of things that a council member Onishi brought up related to the travel disclosure. When members of this body go to a conference and more than two are assembled, we file on the next council agenda to disclose that. I think that you could also implement something similar and go a little bit further and not only talk about in the memo who went but what did you learn from those experiences? You know what workshop or Monal was gleaned there that you're going to now implement within your department. I think that will go a long way, at least publicly to kind of justify why folks traveled and what kind of learning they are bringing back to implement here in Hawaii County. And then regarding the training for like Sunshine Law Ethics and all of that, I recall having to sign something that said I attended a specific training. I don't know if that process is currently being implemented by your corporation council but we receive many trainings and folks often forget it's probably so early on during your tenure on the Commissioner Board and so folks might have gotten it like you said but have forgotten but I think having that signed written record will also go a long way. And then prior to travel, you know, Chair Okabe, you could also consider some kind of memo just to remind folks of expectations related to sunshine. Because they're so, I mean, I'll be honest, there's a lot of information and laws that kind of govern how we're supposed to behave in these types of settings. So just some kind of memo to remind folks would be great. Finally, I just want to end on, you know, page 19 of the audit. The conclusion talks about how these training programs are highly correlated to the successful outcomes of your department. Folks are able to stay in forms of national and regional best practices, improve performances in regulatory compliance, public safety, and youth outreach initiatives. There's demonstrated benefit for members of your department, the board, and the commission going to various trainings and conferences. We just have to make sure that going forward it continues to be fair. And then finally, at the top of the page, it's noted how many council contingency fund grants are processed close to 300. And I think that's really significant because your department provides a tremendous service to our council offices, ensuring that these grant monies can make it out to various nonprofits in the community. So I just wanted to take a moment to thank you and acknowledge you and your team for that. Thank you Chair Eilt. Thank you you. Council member Inava, can you help me? I'm going to be a committee. I'm being 20th director. I'm going to be submitting a communication hoping that you can provide us with an update regarding the travel policy for your department. And then also, I think there's been some discussion regarding this reporting back as a policy, but it's my understanding, corporation council correct me if I'm wrong. It's not a policy of our choosing. It's the law related to sunshine law that if members are there more than two that a report be given back at the next agenda. So just want to make sure that we are in compliance there. And it's not a policy that needs to be created. It's just one that needs to be followed. If it hasn't been followed all this time. Thank you. We look forward to seeing you on May 20th. So thank you very much. Thank you to the department and thank you to the county auditor and our staff and especially thank you to the board members and commissioners from liquor for coming today. Seeing no other lights on, I will ask to everyone in favor of closing file on commission 178. Please say aye. Anyone opposed? Seeing none, we have eight in favor with councilmember Coney, a legal and filter excused. That's the end of our agenda and we are adjourned at 134. The next committee, which is the committee on planning, land use and economic development will start shortly.