Mr. Harvysaar, please start. Please. I would like to welcome you to the Supervisors and the Planning Commission Joint Workshop to order at this time. It's virtual. Mr. Hamlet. Mr. Newman. Mr. Tari. Mr. Stimson. Mr. Sondos. Okay. What I'd like to reconvene the commissioners meeting tonight is called Rollforce Place. Mr. Matt Seale. Here. Steve Domehue. Mr. Kevin Meadows. Mr. Keigh Bordalland. Here. Mr. Steve Rosen. Here. Mr. Harry Domehue. Here. Mr. William Flippin. Here. It's a sign of our new community agenda. That motion is for the community. So, Mr. Hamlet. Mr. Newman. Mr. Newman. Mr. Terry. Mr. Simpson. Mr. Saunders. Mr. Terry, the commission has already approved their agenda at 3 o'clock. Yes, please. Congratulations to the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands One way under God individual with the liberty of justice for all. Does Frank gracious help Father, we thank you for this day. We thank you for those who are gathered here in this place. I just want to thank you with each and every one. As information is presented, that we might be able to gather that information to make informed decisions for the citizens of this county. It's a Christ name, I'll pray. Amen. So, Madam Chair, members of the Board, members of the Plenty Commission, thank you all for being here this evening. I'm going to tee this up for Mrs. Johnson because this is really her rodeo tonight. What we wanted to do after discussing the Board of Supervisors and the Plenty Commission, we wanted to start having these quarterly meetings to make sure that we were actively discussing hot topics within the community as it relates to planning and zoning and work into being on the same page or working in lockstep, identifying potential issues that may be coming down the pipeline and looking to work together to solve problems as it relates to and to create opportunities as it relates to planning and is editing also our building inspections office. So with that, the meeting objective is really what I'm calling this is preserve Converland because that's one of the things that we've heard throughout the conference of planning process. And also as we look at our economic development opportunities, it really is an opportunity to help preserve the county. Our current objective would be to provide high level overview of the requested topics that we gather, feedback from you all on related playing zoning, county ordinances, and processes related to those topics. Just get everybody on the same page. Number two, we'll be to provide an overview of potential future development options opportunities that align with the county's confidence in and the desire to remain maintained at rural character. Number three, we developed a community development work plan which would synthesize the planning and zoning in our economic development opportunities and the building inspectors office efforts. So our hope is when we leave the seeming is to share with you the information, provide clarity on on where we stand with certain ordinances and certain efforts within the county and then create a workland that would include the livables time for answer delivery and funding needs. The work plan would align with the conference plan goals and objectives and would drill down into greater detail and provide us a work plan to to provide some of those deliver. And some of the items for discussion that we're going to be talking about tonight includes lot sizes and housing subdivisions, private roads and some camping restrictions just from a 30,000 foot view. So before we jump into this I wanted to share a video from our visit from Cobb's Great this afternoon. So after we do that, I'm going to turn this over to Stephanie and she can start talking about our first topic for discussion. Give me one moment. It's amazing. You know, we've been just thinking of structure at construction at this site for an all-partite right at 10 years now. And this, getting that 345 is the culmination of 10 years of hard work and effort out here. It's amazing. We've gone from this wooded site with 3 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1- tower It's just it's been an incredible project. I think the challenge is like like we put those numbers out there Like 1100 acres acres, 15 billion gallons. You have people who were like very, very closely involved in it who still can't wrap their head around like how massive this thing is. Coming from the site where it was nothing but trees to now looking at roughly 1100 acres of water, it is something I never could imagine. This was what it would look like. We saw renditions, the digital images, and they say that's what it looks like. You don't believe it. Until you look over your shoulder and you see God's grief. For everyone who is involved, just being a part of something that is like so big and is so impactful, it's not only our community but the entire region. It's just amazing to think that this was an idea not too long ago and that we all kind of collectively dreamt up together and worked with all of our partners to develop and design and permit and then finally constructed here we are at the top level. Now, gold is just to make sure the counting's proud of what if you invested in it, it's beautiful. You know, I've called this far. From the first day, we started pumping. We were so pretty honoured and to see that, you know, this is coming to light. You know, and now that we are here, you know, a couple of months and it's pretty much a happy day for all of us. It is a legacy moment for my career, something that I don't believe I would have another opportunity to do. This is a testament to what could be achieved when people were together, but won't come and cause, and it's actually an engineering feat. to you know to see this Canada project go forward and it's a testament to the leadership of the Rackle County and our forward thank you. The video from COBS Creek. And there will be other opportunities to go out and visit, but we had a very good visit this afternoon and got to tour the Palm House and some of their other spaces. But with that, I'm going to turn it over to Stephanie. Good evening, everybody. Bear with me. Bear with me tonight. So the first thing that I think that we are going to talk about is the subdivision ordinance and the zoning ordinance. From what I understand, there are some questions out there about what exactly our subdivision ordinance is, what it says, what it means to our residents, and not everybody is aware of how vastly different the subdivision requirements are based on the zoning district. So that's kind of what we're going to delve into tonight. And if you have any questions at any point in time, feel free to jump in and interrupt. Again, this is just a workshop. It's very informal. So for the first thing that we're going to talk about, lot sizing, housing, and impacts, the regulation of people per bedroom. So the county and the zoning or subdivision ordinance does not necessarily regulate the number of people per bedroom. The health department would regulate that. So based on the number of bedrooms for a septic system that will determine the number of people in that house or in that dwelling. The subdivision ordinance will determine how many dwellings per parcel and how many acres per parcel you can have. Single family maximum, I'm sorry, minimum square feet. We don't have currently a minimum square foot size for single family dwellings. And I don't know with the abundance of tiny homes and the interest and that influx that's going on right now if that's something that we really want to regulate. As far as duplexes go, they are currently and have been permitted by right in the A2 district. I would say currently about 90% of the county is zoned A2 agricultural that does have the two acre minimum lot size and that is generally our least restrictive zone that we have currently. So that not only allows a wide variety of agricultural uses but it also permits single-family dwellings and duplexes as by right. The regulation of two-story duplexes we don't't really have the authority to regulate, whether it's an over-under or side-by-side duplex. The duplex itself, that use, is permitted by right. The building code would determine how those structures are built and make sure that they're built to code, but I don't think that even if we change our ordinance that we would still have that authority to regulate only side-by-side duplexes and not above or above below duplexes. Potential use in the village area, that is something I think everybody has an interest in and that's something that we need to look into with small area plans based on our comprehensive plan. The current zoning districts that we have there are quite many. There are a few that we don't have any property in carbon line that are zoned some of these zoning districts, but they're zoning districts that have been in our code for quite some time where I'm assuming they were purposeful at some point, but at this point, they just don't serve in my opinion a purpose currently. It may be something that we should keep in our ordinance to allow if the potential were to arise later on down the road. So I don't see a need, my opinion, to make a change to some of these, such as A1. A1 is a 100 acre minimum lot size. It's considered agricultural intensive, but it's specifically geared towards swine facilities. So that agricultural intensive in that zoning ordinance, it's specifically for hog farms and hog farms that are larger than a hundred head. So that's the only purpose of that A1 zoning district. We don't have any properties to my knowledge in Cumberland County that have that zoning designation. Next on the list is A2. Again that two acre minimum, the agricultural general zoning district and again about I'd say 90% of the property in Cumberland is zoned to a two-agricultural. The next we have in the agricultural genre is the A20, a 20 acre minimum. It's the agricultural large lot. That I believe zoning district was added in the past 10, maybe 15 years and there's only one subdivision that I'm aware of that has that A-20 designation and I believe that is off Carter's Hill Road and Jenkins Ridge Road. And that maybe about five or sixels of land, but when that major subdivision was brought to the county at that point, it was the property owner who I believe requested that they be listed as large agricultural parcels. So again, to my knowledge, those are the only a 20 lots that we have in Cumberland. The next is recreational access or RA1. That zoning district was brought about I believe in the 90s possibly it's I know before before I came here but that was added for the Route 622 Transmill Road area on the way to Bear Creek Park. So that zoning district wanted to be a little bit more restrictive in the types of uses that were allowed in that area to keep it more rural and rustic for the people that traveled to and from Bear Creek Lake. That zoning district also has a two-acre minimum lock size and to my knowledge that hasn't changed since its inception. The R1 is residential general. The minimum lock size can vary from a quarter of an acre to an acre depending on whether they have water, public water, public sewer or both. If they do have both, they can be a quarter acre lot size. To my knowledge, the only properties that have that R1 zoning designation are down south, down towards Farmville, like the Kimberly Hills area, and some that are around 45 south, the Cumberland Road. Next is R2. Minimum lot size is half an acre to two acres. Residential general again, public water and public sewer dependent. R2 is zoned or those areas are generally some along Route 45 South, Cumberland Road but mainly here in the courthouse area where we have both public water and sewer. R3 is the, I want to say it's like a rural residential, five acre minimum and the only areas that I'm aware of in that zoning district are in the northern part from, it's in Carter's bill from what is the road that she live on? Hypocates? Me? Yeah. Perkins. Perkins is generally from Perkins Road heading north on 45 into like the village of Carter'sville area. So while I think the purpose of that and rezoning that area was a good idea, but the majority of those lots are not five acres. So the majority of the lots in that zoning district are considered existing non-conforming. So anybody that wants to do anything in that area would have to request a waiver or a conditionally used permit or even possibly a variance from the board zoning appeals to do so. Well you say not five acres, you mean your smaller than five acres? Correct. Yeah, the minimum lot size now is five acres, but the majority of them from the intersection of Carter'sville, Carter'sville Extension and Deep Run, heading north toward the river are all very small walks. Yeah, they're all two and a half to three and a half acres of the frame. So why are there still designated R3s? Nobody has requested to change that. And that R3 designation was done prior to me being in this department. So I don't, I think it was more of a cheaper purpose that I believe was to keep the historic value and keeping larger lots. I don't think that they wanted to really have the Carter'sville village grow similar to the Courthouse village. I think they wanted to keep it rural and historical in that area and that's why they maybe increased the lot size in that area but I don't see where it's doing it any justice in my opinion. But again that was done prior to me coming into the department. So the last two that we have, RMH, I'll jump to that one first. That's residential, manufactured housing. So that zoning district, I couldn't tell you when that one came in. It was specifically for mobile home parks. We do have one area that is zoned our M.H. and that is Brumskill Court which is off of Route 13 Old Buckingham Road. And I believe that was requested at the time to be zoned our M.H. So I think it was created at that time. However the lot size is two acres per dwelling but the parcel itself has to be a minimum of 14 acres. So it's very confusing the way that it's worded and with stay code changing where you can't discriminate on the housing type in residential and agricultural zoning districts my opinion is that we have no use for a manufactured home zoning district anymore because they have the same rights as far as putting up a home like a manufactured home whether it's a single-wide a double-wide a modular on-frame or off-frame as we do a stick-built home. The last one that we have is R2M. It's multi-final housing and it is currently public water and sewer dependent. We don't have any R2M zone properties currently. I think the purpose of this zoning district is for apartment complexes, maybe convalescent homes, things like there's more than more than a few families living in one area. So I think that's more towards like a bigger development than what we have currently. Are there any questions so far? Or any more questions? Yes. On the bedrooms, you could have four rooms designated as bed, but But it's not considered a bedroom. Unless they change the code, it has to have a closet. I believe the code has changed. But I think it, yes, it needs to have, it can be designated a bedroom, whether it has a closet or not. And if it's designated a bedroom, then it needs to be permitted as a bedroom. So... We have one, two, three... Six... I think... Well, we're six bedrooms in our house, but only two of them have closets. So when they put my new septic system in, there was... On India, one line. So you can request a septic system larger than what is required but as far as the minimum goes. Now if you were to submit plans for your house currently if it's labeled on your plans as a bedroom then it would be permitted as a bedroom whether it has a closet or not.. It's not. Yeah. It's a school. Right, but that's what I'm saying. Yours is a different situation, a different scenario, than what we would kind of see now because of the house that you're in, or the building that you're in. But then you have freedom on this. OK. So subdivisions in lot sizes. and We're delving into the subdivision ordinance now. This is going to be a lot of liglies, a lot of code reading. So if I bore you, tell me to move on. 54-175 minimum lot size requirements and lot boundaries. Each lot within a subdivision shall satisfy the minimum lot size required by the zoning ordinance. So the subdivision says you have to have that minimum lot size, but it's based on your zoning district. So the zoning district lays out what your lot size has to be. We can skip over. For county code for a major subdivision, the planning commission has the authority to approve and disapprove applications for subdivision of land. It's actually they have the right to approve the subdivision plat itself. So when we submit or when I receive a subdivision plat for a major subdivision which so we have three different types of subdivisions. We have a minor subdivision which is five lots or less, a major is six or more and then we have a family subdivision. So a family subdivision is similar to a minor subdivision but they do not have to meet the requirements for road frontage. So here's where I get to draw. Sorry. All right so let's say we have can everybody see that? Let's say we have Route 60, OK? And my lot looks like this. And I've got my house right here. I've got three kids. And I want to give each kid two acres, right? So I want to keep this part. I want to keep my red frontage. I want to keep my trees and I love my kids and all but I want to see them back here, right? So I want to give them each two acres back here. If this was a regular minor subdivision, we couldn't do this necessarily because each lot that we're creating, whether they meet the minimum lot size requirements, they wouldn't have that road frontage requirement, which is required by this any ordinance. So with a family subdivision, you can do an easement, which we could do like this, right? So this could be as small as a 20-foot access easement to allow your family members to get some of your property. Now on the flip side of that, by allowing this to happen and not require a road frontage, each of my kids here would have to have a restrictive covenant in their deeds saying that they would have to keep the property for a period of 10 years and not sell to anyone outside of immediate family for those 10 years. So that allows us as residents to still keep our property and give to our family members something that, you know, we may not have been able to do otherwise, but it keeps people from trying to take advantage of the system. Whereas, you know, if this would be a developer, if they wanted to come in and do the minimum of 20 feet of an easement instead of the 50 feet, which we normally require for everybody else, they could come in and do this without that restrictive covenant, they could keep it for a month and sell it, and then we have, you know, an issue with this going on later down the road. So there are benefits to having a family subdivision. However, you can only sell one lot or a gift or sell either way, one lot to one family per a subject. Are those lots in the back? No, it's subject to setbacks as if they were on the front. Yes. So this easement is going to be considered their roadfrontage. So this would be their front setback. So if they put their house here, you would have your 75 feet from the center line of the road, 25 on the sides, and 35 on the back. So each slot would still have to meet those setback requirements. It's just that road-fronted requirement that they're allowed to side-step for The easement in its place, but on the other hand, they have that restrictive covenant Any questions? Okay, yes Yeah, if it was a minimum Subdivision just general minimum. Yeah, the only difference would be the width of the easement? Yes, at a road maintenance agreement because family subdivisions are not bound to the same requirements as far as road furnished. So they could have this now let's say if we only did two parcels. Okay, so this would be a shared access because a shared access only can go to two locks. Once you have three or more locks on a driveway or an access, then it's considered a private road. If we were doing this as a by-right division, then this would be a 50-foot access and utility easement, which would require a road maintenance agreement signed by all parties, and all parties would have to use this as their access to each lock. And Stephanie, that's relatively new, correct? Yes, yes, that's been since I've been in this office. So once they split it up, the two in the back, because you're already saying like we have three, it's a product of road name, which I'm saying means means it needs to be wider so they can fire trucks and ambulances and utility trucks and everything else is not gonna fit down to 20 foot driveway. Correct. Where they're not gonna find the anyway so it's not gonna be marked. But you already got a house there that's slipping off up so two brings us a three. All right. So like this would be four lots. Yeah. Yeah. So it's still one subdivision of the parcel, but it's resulting in four separate locks. So they'll subdivise that and then put two flexes on. They could do this and put two flexes on it. And then how would that affect that? This is going to be two different aggregates of per day, but it doesn't matter. It's still based on, as far as the road is concerned, it's based on the lot. as far as the addresses each duplex would have their own address and this would still be a Rift It would still be a named road Does that make sense? So again minor subdivision is five lots or less major subdivision is six lots or more minor subdivisionsision is six lots or more. Minor subdivisions, I can improve administratively, and then major subdivisions go to the planning commission for approval. When I receive a major subdivision survey, I go through the code, make sure that all the code requirements are met. And at that point, I'll set it on the planning commission's agenda for them to approve. So the time it gets to the planning commission, they've already met all of the requirements. I won't put it on their agenda until I know that it will meet all of the code requirements. Now, if the planning commission has a subdivision that like one we did last year, which was for Northfield, it was a nine lot subdivision and they were proposing driveways for each lot right on 60. And it was one thing that I had mentioned to them that currently I cannot require, but I can highly suggest that we minimize the number of entrances on a main road. So we were I had suggested doing a private road and having it come along the back of the property and access the parcels that way instead of on 60 having individual driveways. I couldn't require it so they didn't do it. It went to the Planning Commission and they mentioned it. So I think it meant more coming from the Planning Commission and they did go back and do a study from the preliminary survey approval before they brought the final plat to me to approve and they weren't able to do that private road going on the back of the property based on the terrain, the topography and the I don't remember how much money it was that they had said it was going to cost but it was like yeah it was $50,000 or more just to do that there. So it wasn't feasible for them to do that. Going forward though, as subdivisions do come in, whether they're minor or major, I am pushing that as hard as I can until they push back. And then I say, OK, well, you need to put the requirements. Because again, I can't require it at this point. I can just highly suggest that that's the way that we need to go. Stop. Can I ask one question? Yes. Going back to the original drawing, lovely drawing that you did. Thank you. As a family subdivision. Prior to a few years back, it wasn't required the 10 years that you had to hold one to it before you could sell it. Of course that's a current requirement. It was 20 years. You recently dropped to 10. Okay. Yeah. At the 11 year mark two of the kids is the side of the cell. There's no road maintenance agreement. Is there a way to mitigate that? Because I've heard from a couple people who have bought homes, same scenario. They want to complain that the road's not maintained, but there was no road maintenance agreement because come to find out it was a family subdivision. And they feel like they've been misled or duped or something because they didn't know any better. Is there any way to mitigate that prior to it becoming? I mean, is there any way to put in, or code allows, know, code allows, put in, when there's a family division that, if in the future you sell, there has to be a road maintenance agreement prior to selling problems up to that. So we can, it would require a code amendment. The code can be changed. The code can be changed to say whatever you want. I think that that might be a hard sell for the public because people are going to look at that as well. That's just more restrictions that you're going to put on my property. That's more, I see your point of it as far as protecting people down the road. And so for instance, I'm building a house. I'm required to put in 36 inch wide doors for ADA compliance. Nobody in my house requires ADA compliance. What I'm having to do that, because if I sell my house in the future, it has to be compliant. So I don't see why it would be an issue to say, do what you want right now at your family division, if and when you decide to sell, they have to come up with a road maintenance agreement to protect, you know, future residents. How would we even like this in the planning commission unless you knew? We dealt with it probably a dozen times or more over a whole line of stuff. The private road and people to end of the road were upset. Yes. There was no agreement to take care of the road. Yes. And that came down to, was it an almost association that kind of went down? There was a road main, it was Woodhaven Trail was one of them. And then, Carichill was one. Carichill I don't think ever had a road maintenance agreement I believe. What even trail had one but expired? So with our current road maintenance agreement draft that we have there is no expiration. Now what we could do is we could change the code to require shared access to easement agreements and road maintenance agreements for family subdivisions. Because I think currently it just says that it's not required for family subdivisions. I think just from a public safety standpoint, and that's point earlier. Yes. I think it may be worth exploring extending that. Absolutely, we can. I mean, we've got one in my district. Was it Kimberly? No, Anne Carroll. And the road is, and I'm not putting blame on anybody. I heard from residents that they had to drive themselves out because we couldn't get a bird to see equipment down there. I guess our ambulance or something. They couldn't go down it. This was like a year and a half ago. So I'm just saying it would prevent that scenario. Yeah, that was a major subdivision and the roads were built to be not standards. So I'm not, yeah. I've been in the trees over a lot of hot holes. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and check it out. And that one should have required a bread maintenance agreement for the major subdivision. Never find we're going because it's a repainting bread with no markers on it. And then once you get to that driveway, it's against within the more side of the visions, or campers or everything. So this is something we can add as we talked at the beginning to the work plan to review. Yeah, Dr. Bism, in the deep like with a wooden walk-up second level at the staircase apart now. Yeah. Dr. Bison and Difflex with a wooden walk-up second level at the staircase department. Yeah. We'll see. And that's the thing. If it meets the building code requirements. I don't know if they're required to have a mental staircase or not. I don't think so. They don't have the rooms that have a lot of Yeah, you took part of them right and they're just really healed Right now If they are renting units, the only way that the building official would be able to go out and inspect or notate any code deficiencies is if a resident or a tenant calls the complaint in that will allow the building official to go and conduct an investigation to see if there's any code deficiencies. Most people will call and then when they find out that the building official can go out there they they redid they don't decide not to go through with it because ultimately they fear that they'll be kicked out of their place. So it's kind of the it is. There there are stuff between a rock and a hard place. When there are properties that are not maintained appropriately by their landlords, where the tenants are stuck in this place, they can't get the help they need by the building official coming in and requiring that the property and are fixed without having the tenant leave. So, yes, it is. Yes, that we can definitely look further into family subdivisions requiring shared access easements and road maintenance. Okay. Anything else? Can you go back? Can you go back? Yeah, I didn't see where it was. That's okay. I'm gonna go back. I can't go back. You mean you go back? Yeah. I didn't see where it was. That's OK. I'm going to go back. It goes back. OK. So all approvals must be in compliance with the zoning ordinance again. Plats cannot be recorded unless it's been approved. That is something new since I've been in the office too. I've had a lot of complaints from the Commissioner Revenue, from Circuit Court, from everybody that uses the surveys that are recorded, where they've got misinformation on them. Or they've created illegal lots, illegal subdivisions, because they were just able to be attached as an exhibit to a document. So therefore, they didn't require a subdivision approval or a survey approval so our current code does require that all flats that are recorded now be approved through my office. That ensures that the information is correct, that all the information is up to date because we do have like floodplain maps that were just updated in 2024. That's very critical information I think think, especially when you have people that are buying the houses as they are now. Flood insurance is a big, is a big, so we wanna make sure that we have the right information on the surveys for our future property owners. First and cannot transfer subdivided land until it has approved and recorded. And that again goes to people who are recording deeds with surveys subdividing property that weren't adequately approved. So they were considered illegal subdivisions. After it's recorded, the Commissioner Revenue's office is required to give it a tax amount of numbers. She is required to tax it. So at that point, it has a legal parcel ID number. So the only thing that we can do at that point is to not issue zoning permits and building permits until they go through the approval of getting that subdivision done legally. So that way we make sure that it meets those zoning setbacks. We make sure that it has the right acreage, the right road frontage, those sorts of things. Building permit and CO will not be issued until everything is taken care of, and there is a penalty of $500 per parcel of land when it's a provider's sold. Planning and zoning administrator is designated as the agent of the board to administer interpoint of course and establish procedures to govern and administer the chapter. Review of all preliminary plats and approval of final plats and consult with and advise the planning commission. So designation of the planning commission, their powers and duties. So the planning commission is designated to, as the approval body for the preliminary subdivision for the major subdivision. In addition, they will have the following powers and duties to initiate code amendments and make recommendations to the board supervisors to approve waivers when those matters are referred to them and to consult with and advise the agent on matters contained in the chapter and to grant or withhold approval for preliminary plat again for the-eitions. For code amendments, it can be amended in whole or in part by the board. Either with the planning commission on its own, they can request that the board approve certain code amendments or the planning commission will make recommendations for any amendment to the board. If the Planning Commission fails to make a recommendation to the board within 60 days of the date it was referred to the commission if initially started at the board's level and the board said we want the Planning Commission to take a look at this. You refer to the commission they have 60 days to look at it and make a recommendation. If they do not do that then the board may adopt the amendment without the recommendation of the commission. And of course prior to the adoption of the amendment, we also have to advertise and hold the public hearing for that code amendment as well. Minor subdivision application. A preliminary flat shall not be required for a minor subdivision. So I think that we get caught up in the words and the verbiage of certain things. So when I see a preliminary flat, any flat that comes to me in my opinion is a preliminary flat. Because I have to review it and make sure that meets the code requirements. Once I know that it meets all of the code requirements and all the verbiage and everything is on there as it should. Then to me it's considered approval so it's a final plaque. So for major subdivisions what they submit to me at first is considered a preliminary and then the Planning Commission approves it. If they require any changes or if V.Dot requires changes, the health department, the public utilities, if they require any additional changes, then that would be revised and sent back and that would be considered a final clap for a major subdivision. All last, of course, we'll have to meet with the zoning requirements for the district. They must comply with the zoning, sorry, design standards and improvements. They will comply with access requirements for shared entrances, roads and alleys. It is necessary to show in a final plat that certain reviews and subdivision approvals have been approved. Sorry, reviews of a subdivision proposal have been approved prior to submittal and approval of the final plat to the agent, such as the surveyor, the engineer, and the agent. Requirements for additional flat endorsements would be the health department for private water and sewer and then for public works for public water and sewer and VDOP. So the current code does state that the health department in VDOP or the public utilities director have to sign the plan. Since COVID, we have not been doing that because COVID, everything shut down. So since then, I submit by email the survey to and the sole work to both VDOT and the health department, they conduct their reviews and then they send me back in approval letter that approval letter goes in the file. And then my signature on the plan proves that they have endorsed their plat. They have endorsed the plat, they've given their approval on that. So their approval letter goes with that permanent file. Application procedure for a major subdivision against, again this is six lots or more. The preliminary plat shall be required and shall be reviewed impacted upon by the agent or the planning commission as applicable within 90 days. In a perfect world we could meet that 90 days. Current staffing that is not likely. An extended period if state agencies of public authority is reviewed or their reviews required would too will be both the health department and VDOT and sometimes DEQ depending on where it's at if there's any storm water or wetlands that are involved on the site sometimes it also requires their review and approval as well. The approval of the preliminary flat does not guarantee approval of the final flat and it does not guarantee that a approval or acceptance of the subdivision does not constitute authorization to proceed with the construction of the improvements on that subdivision. So for a review, preliminary flat for a cluster subdivision and a conventional subdivision shall be reviewed and acted on by the planning commission as follows. I didn't realize that's a planning commission, I thought it was zoning administrator. So, yeah. To be straight from that. Yeah. Preliminary application meeting, existing resource site analysis plan, discussion and review for compliance. I would make a recommendation to the PC and they would review for compliance recommendation and approvals for the preliminary plot. And then for the Family Subdivision Plot Requirements, contents of the final plot, the Health Department approves the volume septic., VDOT would submit their approval for entrances on the public roads, infrastructure, improvement plans, with that point we would ideal interest of the county in the property and they would provide instruments evidencing maintenance of certain items such as road maintenance agreements, that sort of thing. I I may have missed it, but that says cluster subdivisions and conventional subdivisions. Yeah, I think this should be from the major subdivision section because they're not required to approve minor subdivisions. Okay. Whether it's cluster and conventional, cluster or conventional subdivisions. They're not required to approve the, sorry, minor subdivisions, but they are for major subdivisions. Okay, so then explain to me what a cluster subdivision is and a conventional subdivision. A conventional subdivision is one that just, it meets the code requirements as it is. Two-acre minimum, 200 feet of road frontage, it the setbacks that's it. A cluster subdivision allows for the lot size to remain the same but the development to be a little bit more compact or dense but in exchange they would have to have like an open space so like a lot for a park or a playground or something like that. We have those definitions in the code? Yes. Any other questions? All right. Roads shared entrances and alleys. So access types permitted by the subdivisions. So subdivisions major proposing 25 lots, up to 25 lots, shall be permitted one access point onto a public road within the exterior boundary line of the lands. Except for minor subdivisions, lots can may provide for individual entrances with access to a public road if such lot meets minimum frontage standards for their respective zoning district. So therein lies my issue. I can't require them to have one private road that accesses many many lots. If any lot within the subdivision cannot meet the required public road frame standard for the lot for the respective zoning districts all lots within the subdivision shall be required to front upon and access from a private road. Subdivisions proposing more than 25 lots shall be permitted one additional entrance onto a public road at the rate of one additional entrance for 25 lots. And again, these are for major subdivisions, like major residential developments. Entrances onto a public road shall be classified as a driveway for one lot, a shared entrance for two lots, and a road either public or private for access to any three or more lots. No more than one shared entrance shall be permitted per subdivision, and again shared accesses can only be used for two lots. Any questions on that so far? The difference between the three. Okay. So, provide landowners, a visual representation of the design standards. The county has prepared a guidance document title in private access design standards manual. That has been in the code for 12, 15 years maybe and I just found this document last year. It was very well hidden. I'm sure it was on our county website at one point any years ago and then with county website refreshes and then we jumped to a new county website. Some of those documents and links were lost. I did find the old document, I think it was dated like 2007. So I'm sure that it needs to be updated, but in my opinion that has no place in the code. That is just advisory, that is not regulation, it is policy, or just informational guidance. It's a resource. Stephanie, if we go to requiring them to meet the standards of the road maintenance cream of manual, that would be dull avoid anyway. Correct. Well, we already have sections in the code that requires people to meet those certain requirements for shared entrances, private roads or driveways. So to me, that's just a resource again. So it has no place in the code itself. Any entrances on to a public road that provides or will provide access to three or more lots, shall meet the Virginia Department of Transportation's standard private subdivision road, street entrance, as found in VDOT's road design manual. I couldn't tell you what that said. I haven't read that. But yes, exactly. So this also says that any entrance that provides so for a private road, you have to meet this standard. But we have a standard already set in our ordinance. So again, our ordinance contradicts itself. It tells you in one section, here is how you should install your private road and here's what your entrance should look like. And then we have a section like this that says, well, actually, it needs to meet this code, or this section. Each road shall be configured to the extent practicable to perform with a natural topography, the layout of the land. We don't want big, cut and fill slopes just to make a private room work. We want to keep the land as natural as possible to minimize any soil erosion potential issues. Call the sacks, shall not be permitted except that they may be used in minor subdivisions and non-residential subdivisions of any type. All internal streets within a cluster development must connect with another street in the development either existing or planned. An angle of intersection of not less than 80 degrees is acceptable, however, when practical, perpendicular is preferred. Roads more than 300 feet in length from an intersection or propose to serve more than four dwelling units that terminate temporarily, shall provide with a turnaround meeting the Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials guidelines. So again, just for safety. We have to make sure that emergency people can get in, turn around and get back out. Yes, sir. What is the reasoning behind not having a cold sex? It does say that you can have them in minor subdivision. Yes, but not major subdivisions. Again, this is here before me. I can see where in a major subdivision you would prefer to have thoroughfares or roads more so than cul-de-sacs. You've got one, two ways out of a major subdivision. We see them all the time. You see spurs. But maybe that was put in there to keep major subdivisions from being so major. What's the definition of cul-de-pose exactly? Doesn't matter about it Yeah It just is It has a lot of opinions There you go Yeah Is that an envelope you can serve to culpose next? No What is that has a certain It's going to make a certain degree of interest Yeah It has to meet a certain radius Yeah, that that's a call for season. Yeah. And then you got a house. Yeah, you got that right. Yeah. You don't want to have a radio. I get that. I'm just trying to, there has to be a certain type of turn radius that's allowed in the cul-de-sac. It has to be a certain size for emergency vehicles so that you're not doing it. And that's what differentiates it from any given, really dead end, correct? And an alternative, our code does allow if we don't do a cold attack is the T intersection. So that way they could potentially back in and come out this way, right? So they do have that option. And if that estate made the rule, VDoc all dead in the end. If it's not a state maintainer? If it is, it's a rule. Yeah. For the cloud and tariff. Yes. For the advantage in the U of the U of the underclose set in here. On matter of, I'm going Four five. I don't live at all. I know people like cold suits. I know what I'm just saying. It's cold. Actually enough. Okay. Make your foot. Give it a little more. Put's an access to utility. It really hills. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I mean, that's a lot way through it. Then all the way to back with a pond in, there's a big pond back here. There's a right away there. The easement, the alley. It's part of people's land but part of the sewer system goes out. Yes. So that yeah that's an alley easement and that's meant for public works to be able to maintain those utilities. The whole situation was something back there. Yeah. Yeah. But what he I think what you were talking about was just the one like in between the houses. Yeah. Yes. I know it's a right away, but you know, people put shade gray on there and stuff like that. Well, first of all, I can tell you they didn't get a permit for it if they did that. They didn't get in there for years. Still, they're not supposed to do that. I have a way to do that. On my property. Right. of my property which I make. Is that East Street? Is it East Street? It comes from East Street and it East Street it comes East Street and it goes on the other side where the city or city of Portland yeah and Cumberland are there's a right away back all of them little asses right and it runs all the way up to where the radio station used to be mm-hmm W.F.O.L.A. Yeah, it's the town. Right. I mean, you could... So, until the town were to enforce it, again, there's... That's a town right away. It's a town easement. So, I wouldn't permit a structure to be located in a town, and any easement. But again, it's a town easement. So they would be the ones that would need to enforce that because it's their easement. Because it was all portmired property years ago. And then they start building on the need of lots, but houses here. Yeah. So then somebody in front of me bought a lot, made it into a double lot, and he wanted a bigger head and built there again. But he talked to Jerry Space and Jerry told him, says, well, just take ten feet of the right way. Jerry had no jurisdiction in Converland, that one part of town of Ormgo. That was your property, isn't it? I'm property. Gotcha. Yeah. And it's okay. The problem that I've run into and the reason why we added the ordinance for the shared access easements and the road maintenance agreement is for things like this. It's because a lot of things back in the day where I know where my property line is, you know, I can do this. Yes, here's a handshake, you can do this. And then when unfortunately people pass away and then the property changes hands, they didn't know that there was a verbal or even written agreement that wasn't ever recorded. All that they could go on is what's recorded the legal record in the clerk's office. So requiring these things now protect not only the current property owners but the people in the future as well. So it can be a pain in the butt at this point but you do it once and it's done and you know you've protected both yourself and the future property owners. The future. That's it. Standards for alleys and roads. The principle means of access to a subdivision. Shall either be a public road or a private road. Allys with a right of play, easement, width of not less than 20 feet, maybe provided on the rear of the lots for business industrial residential zoning or other planned unit development districts or developments governed by an approved master plan. Adequate drainage control shall be provided for all roads by selling culverts, under roads side, lead, lead or outlet ditches, catch basins, curb inlets and other devices. All of these improvements shall meet the standards of the county and the event the county has no standards set. V. Their standards will be required. In Erie says it needed for growth by the comp plan Rose shall be constructed with carbon gutter, sidewalk and planting strips, sidewalks and planting strips shall be designed and constructed and defined with the chapter. So I have an issue with this section specifically because areas designed for growth by the comp plan, what we consider now, our 2023 comp plan, is village centers or rural crossroads. And right now the intersection, or the intersection of Run-A-Road 60, that intersection there is considered rural crossroads. Can we require sidewalks on that section? Like there's, you know what I mean? I think that this is a great plan to go to look to, but as we develop, then I think that could come into play. But certain areas right now, I don't think this is something that we could actually require, because you'd have a sidewalk going to nowhere. Actualist. Yes, sir. So just a question for clarification on that paragraph started with adequate range. It talks about meeting county code improvements or for union department transportation. We can't, we can't violate the department transportation code right? I mean correct. So we can be stricter, correct? Right. But yeah, the word in there is just tricky. All of the improvements shall meet the standards of the county or in the event no county standards exist The department transportation Stinkers Which I mean we have standards as far as what I'm saying those if our standards are less Then Qualifying under that it would be legal I don't know that it would be legal. However, V.Review is all of our flats. So if they see anything that is inadequate, they have the ability and trust me they do comment on it. Trust me, right? Yeah. So they have to approve them any way. Looking at it, see if it's conflicting language and add it to our review. Sure. All right. Not that I want that, other burrito. Yeah. Yeah. You're making that, but. Yeah. So at the very bottom, can private roads be required to meet VDOC regulations? I think this was a concern that was brought up, and I don't know that we can. VITOT regulations would price out our property in the earth and I don't see how we could do that. Now ultimately they wanted that private road to be accepted into the system. Yes. Then they build it to those standards but if not we can't make them. No, we cannot. Here are your suggestions. could, but it would be. We could, but we wouldn't ever develop. I think that we would be sued, in my opinion, because if we on fringe on somebody's ability to subdivide their property by giving them this ultimatum, yeah, you can put this road in, but you have to spend $10 million, bringing it up to beat out standards. I wish somebody would tell me that. No sir. Yes sir. What are the requirements and rules for a road for beat outing, you know, taking a road into their system? It depends on the road, it depends where it's at. It would need to be asphalt. It would have to be like three layer asphalt. It had to be proper. It had to be built, and there's a specific area. I know it has to be built. Yeah. When is based on number of residents, leave for the road. So anybody as long as the road is built to be not standard. They would take it. The board of supervisors could request that VDOP take over a state maintained road. I believe that has been done a few times in the past and I believe VDOP has said thank you but no thank you. I don't think they have any intention on adding any more roads into the secondary system. Would you look at Karen, tell us, is that there are like 2340 homes back there. Right. Have a minute. more rows into the secondary system. Would you look at Carr and Chilis? Isn't that a 2340 homes back there? Pretty big. How many? I think it's 34 and more. Plus, the size streets, it's all dirt rooms. Yeah. And people have to pay a fee if they want anything done. If people pay it, nothing gets done. Well, there were pan fees. The problem was that nobody was managing those fees and when you started asking about those maintenance agreements, stuff was done back in the early 2000s, you sent me some stuff and there was a little count of an HOA agreement, HOA thing, but probably there's no body's management and you start out with a half thousand hums, you start adding to it and there are bodies I mean they call it police, anybody taking a box plate on the road to clean up the pile on the front of their house and next door neighbor will call a police home. I know that's happened, but it's a mouse, but back when they offered years ago, they wanted what $70,000 to bring it up to standards to where beat out with and at it and they couldn't deal with them to agree with them. Yeah. Basically you don't have anybody taking charge. That's right. And with the amount of money because we looked into it quite a bit, with the amount of money would cost the county to be afforded even if they did. Right. The thousands of thousands of. You would almost have to create a miniature service level agreement like that and then tax them to recruit the money and you don't want to go through that. You got so many different deeds and all the new ways, stuff's needed and what have you. I mean way back in the day, they used to build sub-evisions through swamps, throw down logs and, lobed and everything else and piled her on it. And then after serve, sub-visions got handled down into the torsified. And in the roads, you know, to celebrate it, you have 40, 50, 60 houses on a road and it took forever. A lot of money. The county eventually came through and did that, but it was a lot of expenditures on both sides of the line. What I was thinking though when you started talking about maintenance agreements, that was certainly a lot of the problems in writing. In other words, what you're saying are other small or scale, whatever subdivisions. If there's something in place that you can present and use as leverage, that would solidify or that would help with any problems down the road. You were talking about forcing them to go to like V. standards. Okay, I, I understand you couldn't do that to a point because of the cost for every other. But if you require them to maintain a standard and enforce that standard, that would give them a lot of problems, that would grow, historical problems, and I could say historical problems. Things that we do today come back to our 50 year old house. So currently we do require a road maintenance. We require that the road be installed and certified by an engineer to our standards. It may take, right? No, once it is installed, so there's a road bond in the subdivision. Whenever there's a private road, that's on the survey, that's to be installed. They have to provide me with the estimate, provide me with the bond for the road installation. And once it's installed per our code standards, then the engineer goes out and certifies that it has been built to our standards, then I'll release the road bond. The road maintenance agreement sets out how that road is to be maintained and how each property owner is responsible equally and equitably for the cost in maintaining that. The county has no authority to regulate that. It is up to the private property owners to do so. They have to work to the courts if they may. Correct. Yes. They have the ability to enforce it through the court system, but the county does not enforce that. And we have only done that on the large major subdivisions too. Since I've been in this department, then we require them on any if it's three lots or more and it requires a private road. It requires a road maintenance agreement. If it's two lots or more, it requires a shared access easement agreement. So anytime there's a subdivision of land with the exception of a family subdivision, then it requires either a shared access or a private road maintenance agreement and it's recorded with the subdivision survey. And on the subdivision, I require them to write that this plot is subject to either shared access easement or or private road maintenance agreement recorded an instrument number and they have to write in that instrument number as it's recorded. So that way whenever anybody goes forward or in the future and finds that original subdivision they automatically know that it's got a easement or I'm sorry a road maintenance agreement attached to it. Yes sir. Do you give advice on that private road easement or private road maintenance agreement? Or did you say okay you got it? No, so the county attorney has a template that he drafted and he's provided. I provide that template to the residents. They can either use that template or they can take that to their attorney. So if you get So if you get a road and maintenance agreement that says, we'll take care of the road. No, we have standards in our code that says what the maintenance agreement has to have in it. And that's where our template came in to give some people a starting point. So our template that we have meets all of our code requirements. So they can just take our template and literally I've got it set up where it's a plug and play. You put in your main the tax map numbers, your address and it fills it out completely for you so that way they can do that themselves. They don't have to get an attorney in order to do that. As long as the subdivision meets all of our code requirements then we do have that template that they can use. Now if there's there's certain situations where if there's an existing private road that was created and there was no maintenance agreement and one of the lots on it is being subdivided that requires that all properties, all lots on that existing nonconforming road be included in that red maintenance agreement. I will give that property owner the template and say, okay, here's what we have. This is the minimum standards that you have to meet. And nine times at a 10, they're working with a real estate agent or an attorney already. So they'll take it to their agent or their attorney and say, okay, here's what it is. And they can add it, change it, however they want, but ultimately the county attorney has to sign off on that. So he's the one certifying that it meets our requirements and then he certifies it to form and I certify that it meets our zoning requirements before it's recorded. So they all have to meet a certain standard. They can be changed to add or be more restrictive or... So it helps me understand how we can't require VDOC standard, but we can require a own standard of requirements. Because it has to be passable. whereas V.Stand standards require a lot more in detail, a lot more construction. Our standards are pretty much that they have to be wide enough for two vehicles to pass. They have to have ditches in order to keep the road itself safe so that it's not washing away. ours, I would say is like a minimum standard, whereas VDOT is like luxury standard. And especially when it comes to costs. It's a difference between a public and a private. Yeah, absolutely. That's a difference. Yeah. Yeah, but that doesn't really, I mean, maybe the talk offline, but that doesn't really answer my question because if we have the legal authority to tell a private room owners this is their standard then why can't we tell them V-Ox standard? We just said we can't tell them V-Ox standard but we can tell our standard. It doesn't say in our code that we can require them to be our standards and I wouldn't recommend it because nobody could afford it. Now y'all could make that change and put it in our ordinance that we require every road to be built to be out standards. You could do that with a code amendment. I wouldn't, I'd be out of a job because people would be fussing at me. I'm not in favor of that. I'm just trying to figure out that. I think our standards, which Stephanie tells is a little, our standard to let's drink it. And under it. And VDo. Right. But we can't... we came in force to beat up standards. Why not? We don't have the technical expertise. We don't have the technical expertise. I don't want to beat up standards. I'm just trying to figure out... If why do we have authority to do it? Why do we have no authority to tell private road owners they've got to have this standard? But we don't have the authority to say meet-up standards. Right. We do. We have to make a code number. Well, unless, I mean, we have the authority is a V.O. standard. Right. We do. We have to make a code in them. Well, unless I mean we have the authority currently if we don't have a set standard because I mean it says it right there. The sentence you addressed earlier if there are no county standards if the county in the event no county standards exist. Virginia Department of Transportation Standards will be enforced. So we would defer to a more stringent requirement if we didn't have the lesser requirement already in place. And I think part of the, and we're talking about here, when we're talking about divisions, if we're going to allow this parcel to become now a minor or a major subdivision that requires an access road in order to do this. And we have restrictions all over the place on landowners. What you can and can't do with your property. What you have to get a conditional use permit for to be able to do. And I think, again, if some of these standards would have been in place 20 years ago, we probably wouldn't have some of the issues that we currently have with some of these existing private roads that I mentioned earlier. Right. Good. Oh, we'll go back in. No, we'll go back in. What's the life, please? You can have a have a question. In requiring curves and gutters and sidewalks in a grocery store, it's a grocery store. There's a 45-50 acre lot that the owner of a lot doesn't want to sell smaller lots within that area because he doesn't want to cut the roads yet. When he decides to cut the roads so he can sell smaller lots in there, he's going to just cut it from sidewalks, the gutters and everything. Potentially because again I think where when this addition, when this section of the code was put in, the comprehensive plan of growth areas was all along 60 and 45. Our 2023 comprehensive plan is not... It shrunk it. It shrunk it to like just the village, the village center, the village of Cumberland, and then you have like a little bit of the of Carter'sville, and you have a little spot down in like Reigns town, her and area, and then you have smaller rural crossroads which are still considered growth areas. We're going to talk about it a little bit. Right, but that's where I don't think that that quite fits our current comprehensive plan, our prior comprehensive plan, it makes sense, but not with our current comprehensive plan. So I think the small area development plans, that's where we can delve down into the village areas and the rural crossroads and really determine what will be best suited for those areas. When roads are authorized to be constructed to private road standards. So number of lots here, up to 10, minimum travelway width is 16 foot wide, depth of the road base is 6 inches of compacted number 21 A stone, minimum shoulder on either side of the travelway must be 2 feet with compact fill, with six feet wide by 18 inches deep ditch line, with two to one side slopes, minimum cross-lobe of a quarter per foot. Minimum sight distance of 100 feet and max grade is 9%. One thing I do want to point out here, this section here, this was removed from our ordinance where it says that the private roads shall not be any longer than 800 feet, but it was missed in this table. So we do allow private roads that are longer than 800 feet. So private road construction standards for other than single family residential, minimum standards have to have a dedicated 50 foot right away, minimum pavement width, 24 feet, depth of base is 6 inch 21 a stone, and surface treatment horizontal and vertical curvature shall be the subject to approval of the App Cons Engineer's Survey or ANV. We may require increased minimum pavement width to provide for on-road parking. In a site distance, shall be the same as in table three, which I believe is 100 feet, where a vehicular traffic on such roads is projected to exceed 100 vehicle trips per day, depth and base of the surface treatment shall be in accordance with V.O. So roads in the major subdivision must be constructed to a secondary street acceptance requirements of V dot as may be amended from time to time, or public road standards, regardless of such road is to be included in the highway system in the future. When roads constructed to V dot standards,ards, I thought it was the same thing here. No. Same thing. Okay. All roads in major subdivision shall be constructed to V.Standards. In addition to meeting the general applicable standards set forth in the article, any public road to be constructed and extended shall be designed to meet V.Standards to street acceptance requirements. Yes, it's the same language. Okay. Just a different section. Okay. Next. Okay, so before we move on, any other questions about zoning, subdivision, lot sizes, roads, anything else? Okay, here and none, moving on. So camping restrictions. That is I think something that we've seen a lot of here lately is people camping on their property. Property owners can camp on their own property. They can use RVs. However, they cannot be connected to well, septic or electric electric, because that point is considered a dwelling, and RVs are not built to be dwellings, not permanent or long-term residential structures. Is there a maximum consecutive days that you're considered camping versus living there under the state code, isn't like 21 days? Consecute it. I think that might be in the building code. I'm not positive on that, but I can check on that for you. I know that with our RV campgrounds, which are permitted by conditional use permits, I want to say it's 30 days. The max occupancy for any tenant is 30 days. And what is the reasoning behind not wanting somebody to camp early on in the library? Because the structures are not built for permanent residents. They don't meet the building code requirements for your residents. So an RV is a vehicle that is built on a single chassis, 400 square feet or less, designed to be self-propelled or permanently towable, designed primarily not for use as a permanent dwelling, but as temporary living quarters for RV camping, travel, and seasonal use. They are not classified as dwelling units, and are not built to the building code standards, therefore they are not permitted as dwelling units. And again, property owners are permitted to camp on their property, as long as they are not connected to well-septic and electric. And if they... All three are one of them. Any of them. Property owners, if they rent them out for a profit is considered a campground. Yes. Can I ask a question because you just said all three. Yeah. I mean the RV is not connected to any water, waste system or electricity. Would that include solar? Does the the verbiage any water, waste system or electricity? Does it mean any water, any waste system? Yes. Any electricity? Yes. Okay. That's just our county. That is our county. That's our county. I'm sure there's other localities, but I didn't do any research on what other localities permit. And then I'm not trying to pick, but there's a situation that I'm dealing with personally. This is specifically addressing recreational vehicles. With that include RVs, when I hear RV, I'm thinking of motorized recreational vehicle. I'm thinking of a travel trailer. I wouldn't say that, I mean, I don't know if if a travel trailer is considered a recreation or vehicle or not you know what about a 10 by 12 shed. They're not while you're not. Well you can't we do not permit structures such as sheds or other prefab buildings if they're not built to the standing co-building code standards we should not permit them to be altered to meet the building code standards. Currently we have in the past but what we found is in the base construction they just are not able to be retrofitted to meet the building code standards So they're not wise. You can have a tiny home built that looks like a shed that a small size wise can be a shed per se. But as long as it's built to the building co-standards, then we could permit it as a dwelling. But if you were to go to Bungie Top and get a shed, you can't live it. Because the floors themselves are not built to withstand any type of appliances or long-term, load bearing, right? Things that I was born. Now a hunting cabin, correct? A couple. Could you come to me if you were't make your RV on campus. No, because the hunting cabin would have been permitted as a dwelling. Well, it's not really a dwelling. It should have been permitted as a dwelling. I'll say that. If it has. I remember right. We talked about this when we talked about the Caribbean bees and hunting cabins was in a different class. I don't think so. Not that I remember. I could be wrong, but we can check on that. But a hunting, any dwelling is permitted as a dwelling. It's built, as a dwelling, it has to meet the building code standards for a dwelling. A conversion. So hunting cows have to meet the qualifications of a well. If you were to build it today, yes. It's habitable space. It's meant for sleeping. They would have to be built to the building could standards for a dwelling. And there's no minimum size for a building. So I'm just trying to get my head around there. So you've got two pieces of property. One piece of property is got a hundred of that on it. It is not built to current spec. Okay. So it's an existing non-conforming structure. It's an existing non-conforming structure. His body buys the piece of property next to it, puts a camp on it. He can camp on it as long as it's not again camping is not connected to well-ceptic electric so he can camp on it he would have to then dispose of his waste elsewhere he'd have to bring in water What about the day you mentioned the minimal work maximum days? Well, maximum days as far as camping. I think it's in the state code. I don't know if it's the building code. Oh, it's in our county code. Yeah, we can talk about that. But I'm kind of stuck on the electric thing, because I knew many people that have travel trailers or even RVs that have a generator. And that's electric. It's temporary. OK. It's temporary. It's temporary. Okay, it's temporary. It's, yeah. Connect. These are the language. So Stephanie, it's my question is, because they're part of a few of those, um, information, like vehicles that are being used as permanent, as residents, so what do we do? How do we do? So, it's a code, it's a code. It is code enforcement. It would be me and the building official. And again... I mean, I could tell you I'm going to build a house because I got this travel trailer and I got a temporary service until I build a house in the cabin. You would have to get a zoning permit for that. And I would not approve the zoning permit for the house unless it stated that the travel trailer would be disconnected from all service within 30 days of the occupancy for the new house. Let's go take a long way to build a house. And that's fine. You can stay. You can camp, right? With 30, 30 days. There's a lot of around like this. It's a good one right now. And see, I don't go back out to the property once the zoning permit is issued. The building official goes out. He's the one that does the occupancy. He does the final inspection. So it's coordination between his office and my office. I think you got two issues. Verbition enforcement. So we're going to have to add that to our work point. Sure. Now, once this is all of the blurb jam that's correct, you will be putting this out there for the public to know and give them a time frame to adjust the quality. Because once again, there are quite a few information vehicles that are being used as permanent door. Right. So I think the British should be put out there in the newspaper wherever from the time frame on when this is going to be enforced. And I think the enforcement part will come in when there's additional staffing. So years. Yeah. Oh, no. That's going to happen on the six Tuesday of February. Yeah. Sounds like a plan for me. That's it. That's it. Yeah. All right. So once again, we have regulations that can't be enforced. We've had regulations. We've had staff where we were able to enforce the regulations. However, since we'll say 2008 when the stock market crashed and then we've lost people to other departments and then we've lost people to other positions and positions weren't filled. And then my department went from three full-time staff to one person full-time. Right. Yeah, I'm not trying to blame you. No, but I'm saying we have no point. We're bringing it up. We're bringing it up. We're bringing it up. It's not important. It's not really a regular issue. That's right. Well, yeah. Yes sir. Two minutes one time we said you have two camp sites and not be considered a campground? Any more than two? Not that I'm aware of, but I can look into that. Okay. Do you have two but not more than two? to another one. Okay, I'll look into that for you. Okay, future development and redevelopment. Small area plans. Again, these are specific areas for development for smaller areas. The county courthouse area, the Carter'sville historic area, rains tabern, the Farmville area, road crossroads. The comprehensive plan does call for a village concept, which we utilize for the small area, concept plan. This concept recognizes the county's need for targeted development and in efforts maintain its real character and the components of effective. And the next one. Sorry. Effective components for the effective small area plans. These would go into greater detail. The exact footprint would be determined so we would actually show you where the parameters of that village center would be located, specific parcels, design standards, uses zoning and transportation options, and will pinpoint growth will allow for targeted development that will again maintain the rural character of the county. So this schematic that you see here, it looks like it was something that was done previously, part of the... It's all like 2007. Yes, it's one of our old comprehensive plans. And this is kind of a village concept for what they wanted to see west of Route 60. So behind the courthouse area, where the administration complex is now. This was kind of a, yeah, it shows old jail here, proposed parallel street, so like 600 was proposed to go over here, this was kind of like a, it would be nice if we could make all of these, you know, these changes and make for a more walkable village center. Now let's be clear, we're not advocating for this. No, this is just an example. Just an example. Just an example. But this is something that they had proposed as part of the comprehensive plan or the small area plan for that comp plan in 2007. Small area plan would incorporate elements of the corridor study as well. Overlay districts can be utilized, higher density or mixed uses, which I think are very beneficial and could do us a lot of justice, especially in the courthouse village, would also require code amendments. Right now we currently don't have those zoning designates. We do not. There was a historical area, historical corridor study I think done probably again 15 years ago. There was a design standards manual that was created but there was no overlay district created in the ordinance in order to enforce that. So some work has been done of course that will need to be updated and probably redesigned but but some of that work has been started for us. And again with the mix use development, this would allow for something that I've been looking at and looking, trying to push forward, is mix use in one building. So you have like your first floor, could be retail space, a barber shop, a beauty shop, you could have apartments upstairs, something like that that would allow for more growth in our courthouse village, but still give affordable housing and increase that walkability of the courthouse area. Yeah, this guy's going to get brought over because he's not using sidewalks in the corner of the garden. But this is what we talked about a little bit earlier when we talked about how the urban gutter in sidewalks go into nowhere. When you condense it and create villages, you create places where that can happen, but you seek to maintain the agricultural and rural field throughout the remainder of the county.'s that's tied to the to the small area of plain concept that we talked about on a couple of previous slides. And the benefits of this of course are more economic activity, job creation, efficient use of the land, more concentrated use of the property that we do have, increased water and sewer customers and and again, it aligns with that village concept in our comp plan. Yes, sir? I understand that the concept and the advantage of leaving for us to land on, but if that's what people want, they can live in short. People move to come on to get their two acres to away from everybody else. So how do we deal with those opposite dichotomy? The atoms. So I think that by doing this, like what I envision in the courthouse area, like the retail space or business merchant space in the first floor and having apartments or something, something where we can have our young people come back to the county. Currently, my kids are in their early 20s and they're already looking to go in Henrico to Chesterfield somewhere where they can be closer to work because right now we have nothing for them. So I feel like if we offer that space for the younger crowd, we can then bring our kids back. And we have that future, the future residents of Cumberland here and making an impact currently within our county. In addition, having that additional retail space and hopefully some more economic development in the county, that will offer the jobs will keep the kids here. That will help with our, you know, not only our headcount, our population, but, you know, just the overall economic base. But it would be beneficial for everyone of all ages. Oh, absolutely. We need retail. We have nothing here. You know, a lot of elderly people that do not drive. Yes. And there's really no public transportation that's going to go to their door, pick them up, take them to the fire field or power tanner, whatever the case may be. So this will be beneficial for everyone and I don't understand why we don't want to come to be a self-sufficient county because right now we have nothing. And I mean a million everybody else have their rule look but they also have the services and the retails and things that their citizens need. In certain areas. Yes, in certain areas. And I think that would be the benefit of having like the village concept here. Having more of a a dense area for the retail. We need a supermarket to drive. And we have one coming. We have one coming across the street from the courthouse. But anyway, in that area, the courthouse area, if we had a more wide variety of professional offices, the businesses that people need, if we had a, not a one, to remember like a. You know things like that that are residents that would keep our residents here in the courthouse village area. We can have that more condensed retail space and allow for the remainder of the county to stay with the two acres for the people who don't want to live in Chesterfield and that sort of thing. So I think that way we can offer both. We widen our ability to attract people with what our character is in Cumberland, with our people because they're our character. We offer the retail space here, but then we keep the remainder of it rural. Yes, sir. So I think most would probably agree that's a great idea. And I mentioned this when we were going over the Law and Range Plan. That requires people. Businesses do not come where there's no people. So we can say, well, we're just going to have a straight full of people living on top and businesses on the bottom. That cannot happen unless you have lots of people coming to buy stuff at those locations. So I've had, I want to come rolling to be a world as well, but we've got to have people to buy the stuff or you're not going to get with this here go ahead go ahead and I've had developers for the past three years ask me where where can we put mixed use they want the mixed use they want to put in the apartments they want to put in the retail space on the first floor have you gotten that code of meant done yet Stephanie no sorry I haven't haven't been able to get to it yet I've got the people who are calling me all the time looking for affordable places to rent. We have people looking to come but we don't have anywhere for them yet. I understand that but none of that you said there was businesses. It was developments of apartments and structure. I have to fill those businesses. That's, you know, professional spaces are we don't have anywhere certainly for to serve our residents. We need attorneys. We need surveyors. We have one in the county now and I can tell you I'm keeping him busy. And right now he doesn't have an office space because we don't have anything available for him. We need, we have some barbers, we have a couple beauty shops, but we don't have any current space for any other service space businesses that are available. If we build it, they will come. If we have space available, we have people that are willing to come to Converland and spend money on the development, but we don't have the space for them, or we don't have the current zoning to allow them to make those sorts of development operations. What a small area plan it's a vision but it positions you if the market goes that direction your position to be responsive to the market but if you have nothing. Yeah I mean I want to introduce area I mean I'm just saying that I don't think there's demand for it. There's not a demand for it. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that we can have developers that build that all out. But that's not going to, the people that are down south in the county are going to go to farm them. They're not going to come up to the county center to do stuff. The people that are near Palatin, they're going to go back into Palatin, do stuff. So it's not going to... I beg to differ, because I think at this point, if we had more to offer, we could keep more of our residents here instead of having to go to Bucketham, toville to you know another locality. I get what you're saying and those people that work in other localities they may have they're already going that way so they may still stop and get whatever it is that they need right but if we have something that can benefit us and our residents and they've got to come this way anyway, they're gonna stop. They're gonna try to buy local, they're gonna try to keep the money here in the county if they don't have to go outside. So I think the economic development board needs to really be involved with something like this because they need to attract businesses of the county needs. I've been through a change over to mixed use in my business history. Fortunately for me, I owned a restaurant that was at the end of the street and I didn't get gobbled up in the mixed use thing in my building. But what I saw was that the end result was, you know, six, eight years later, it was very successful. But in that six or eight years, eight or 90% of the businesses who were there went out of business during the construction phase, you know, they lost parking, they lost this. And they were all local residents, the loss of businesses. The Theer, the county was a city. The city stepped up and offered low interest loans to go through everything, which helped look some of them, not all of them. And then the developers, of course, were trying to get really high rents for the businesses. And so that attracted some very nice businesses that no one was interested in. So it took those people not making it for businesses to come in and the others needed to lower the building owners needed to lower their prices a little bit and now their businesses there that the city needed and it's very successful but it was a long process to get to that point and it was an expensive process for business owners to go through, you know, the existing business owners. I mean a lot of them. Mr. Rosen to your point, you mentioned the EDA and this is one of the things that I wanted to touch base on tonight related to the small area of plants. The EDA is going through the development of a strategic economic development plan that focuses on agriculture. So in my mind, I would want to see anything that that plan produces dovetail with the comp plan, the small area plans, the planning and zoning, because all of this stuff should fit like this and complement one another not being conflict. So to point that will be taken just very important into consideration. I love the idea of my shoes. If they have water and sugar, I mean that's the main thing. The bees come to have them in the courthouse. The courthouse yes, but what? Yeah, the John Randall. Right. Well then that's, well we're going to talk about that on the next slide. There's other ways to do these small area plans and the concepts. So you good? Yep. All right. Next topic. Age, indeed, restricted communities. Communities that are set up to accommodate older individuals, or plus act in the adult communities, the retirement communities. These would be clustered, higher density development, potentially water and sewer customers with no impacts to the county school system, and that too would also align with that village concept. So for example, if you got what's that? Yeah, very similar. In the formable area and in the Randolph area. You don't have a public water, but you may be able to develop these types of age and deed restricted communities where they would have, be able to work off of several wells, but also be able to tie into the sewer system, as long as we have capacity for the farm bill. So the village concept isn't just mixed use. There's other ways to put together a village and take care and address what's called for the comprehensive plan. I definitely like the age-restricted communities, specifically because of the third statement there, no back to the county school system, I get nervous when I hear talking about development with apartments because that's bringing in a lot of people and a lot of strain on our limited resources and that concerns. Are some over 55 communities who are they might have a child? It's a restriction. What do you mean? You're embarrassed that. It's part of their deeds. So when you develop your own hearing points, no, it's developed around. And then it would be able to ride with property. So if I sold my house, I could only sell it to somebody who was 55 at the time, closing, and had no kids in it. How does that mean? Why are you into it? I have been a developer now that it's... It's an answer to discrimination in the reverse. Approach me if I try to find something into area 455 for us development. They're all across the country, deep-resistant, no children, or if they're our children, they can be like visitors, grandchildren, someone for X number of days. But a 55-plus community, you would have to have going back to the village concept of make fees with professionals for medical staff and in such. And that kind of, you don't know which one you really have to get first. Right. It makes the eaglet. Homesteads come the same time. need to be developed the ortho-way. You have 50, first. Right. It's almost as come a same kind of need to be developed your way. We have 50,000 old doctors. Well, you can get the mixed use first. We need to permit the use first. Yeah, you have to. You can find the counting that is on for something like this. It's nowhere in the counting where we have A1 zone. Yeah, we don't. So I don't see why we can't plan for the future and we could have a zoning district, or an overlay district where it could be designed as an overlay, not maybe specifically as deed restricted, but I don't have to say it ever than like an overlay zoning district where we could add that as a potential Deed restriction. I think that's a good idea. But that way it's not we're not adding a zoning district and two I guess it would be voluntary so why first was thinking how is that legal as long as it's voluntary? I mean you don't have to buy the land if you're not if you don't want to be limited by the deed restrictions, I guess. I don't know. I think if that is something that we look to or look for, I would say that it should be looked at as an overlay district. It makes use definitely. It's playing all the way. So zoning district is like a designation that each parcel is given. And overlay district is something that would go in addition to the zoning. So like with the farmville area, the farmville airport, they have an overlay district with zones where you have the runway zone. And then you have like a, it's a three-layer zone based on the FAA where you can't build or there are certain limitations the height that you can build structures when you're within so many feet of the farm-ville airport. So that's like an overlay zoning district. So the underlying zone of the parcel doesn't change but as long as you're within a certain distance of that location of the airport, then you have additional restrictions based on that distance. So like another definition or example of an overlay district would be like a historical district in the County Courthouse area, area where the zoning of the property doesn't change, but if you're within this overlay district you have to go by these regulations as far as what your outside structure would look like. You'd have to have certain pink colors, you know, things like that. So the one difference between that and the homeowners association is who is putting restrictions on? So that would be the difference between that and a homeowner's association as a homeowner's association would be in your deed. There would be a deed restriction. This, as an overlay district, would be something that the county regulates. So what you would do is you wouldn't want you to handle that administratively. There's layers to it. So you'd have to have a design review committee and someone wants to make a change to the front of their job. It's time to review board. It's got to go to the right level. Yes. Yes. Oh. And there's one thing on that. No. I don't think so. I think that that process was started many years ago. I think when Andy Sorrel was here, he had initiated that process because I did find an overlay map where they had started that process. And then the architectural overlay district or historical overlay district guidelines. I found the document to it. But of course, now the parcels don't match, the zoning doesn't match. so all of that work and money they put into that already would have to be revised and updated if we move forward. But it would be something similar to that effect. All right. Next steps. Strategic plan for focusing. That's right, the economic development. Just talking to such basic. Strategic Plan. Focusing on Ag as in development. And we need to identify or I'd like for us to identify work priorities, deliverables for staff, the commission and the board based on our discussion tonight. And then we can go over deliverable timeframes and funding opportunities to assist with those work priorities. So I think work priorities are already taken on the maintenance agreement, getting quick clarification on due classes of wood stairs, private access, design standards, manual with policy, contradicting the importance of design Standards in the B.O. Road Design Manual. Family subdivision requiring accesses and road agreements. Clarify consecutive days of camping. Permitting a cold to sacs and major subdivisions. Correct. You need to verify that? So with that, I think, you know, we've covered quite a bit of ground tonight. That being said, from the planning commission's perspective, from the boards perspective, what other items do you see as priorities for staff above and beyond what we've already discussed? Is a small area plan something that folks who like to see us look into? Because if that's the case, we would have to go after funding opportunities to grant some things of that nature because we can't do that work in house. Our certainly wouldn't want to tackle it. But it's something that we have to know is on your radar and as an expectation so that when opportunities present themselves and we can pursue them. Yes, we need to go and start to talk about it. We just keep revisiting and revisiting. We're never accomplishing anything. We're not going to grow. I think, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. But I think this fall area of praying would be, in my opinion, the number one priority to go for, look at some funding, look at, what I said, I've already got a developer talking to me about a 55-plus community foolish area, but we have no poorer that is so poor. We have no infrastructure. To support it, we have no mixed use to attract. Even if we just had a smaller medical office, then what we've got here, with specialists coming in or what outwards, would would be feasible but we need a facility for them to operate that. And with that's Mr. Rosen was talking about the next few years. If we had that population to support and make shoes, we could have accomplished something. I'm sorry. I'm saying, what's the county's position on the kind of events of town? I didn't hear anything about that. So it doesn't currently address condescent town. We want zone four. It's un-wondering that when they hear, I mean, is that something we need to take about that? So the zoning ordinance doesn't allow for it either because based on the zoning districts, well, I guess potentially if they had public water water and sewer they would have to rezone a parcel to R2 and they would have to meet like a half acre lot with that. So I guess yeah townhome or condominium, townhome would work because townhomes are side by side so they could each potentially have their own lawn. I don't know how that would work. Who does we have setbacks per parcel? When sure how they do for a duplex. Yeah it would be a duplex and I've had people call and and wanting to build, they call them triplexes or quadplexes. So it's like four duplexes, you know, four and one on one. We're at someone building. Right. And they're ready to start building, but our code doesn't allow for. Well, when sir Carter will see it, we looked at changing his own in order to a wire. Yeah, there was a track of lying off of 600, just back of their pain church that a developer was looking at and could extend, it had water and sewer. From 16. Yeah. To be extended to it at all. And we looked at doing something very similar to what's just east of the Courthouse in Powhatan as you're going down towards their administrative offices on your left end dial. They are quad practices for the most part. But nothing of materialized and I don't recall why. But something like that would be perfect for the area, for the quad. I think we need to address that because it's an affordable way for people to be able to buy something. It's not going to be $400,000 like it is for a home. They can buy a condo or a top home in the villageria where there is water and sewer. You're not affecting the outline row areas at all. I just think they become an affordable alternative for people to buy something. Okay. I would recommend and be cautious about adding butts in the seats in schools. Any what? Butt in theucks in the seats in schools. You're right. Well, I mean, we're doing that. I mean, and that's one thing that I was hoping that we would talk about. I didn't want to be the one to bring it up, but as far as we know, in lot sizes, when it comes to the A2 district, because we need to increase. We right now, you said it, What is it? 80% of the county or 90% of the county is zone A2. So theoretically, 90% of the county could be subdivided into two acre parcels. And at the rate we're going currently, and look, I'm not faulting anybody that wants to go to house and move the county. I mean, God knows, I did that, that. So, but at the rate we're currently going with all of these houses that are being built, we're gonna have to build a new school in three or four years. It's just gonna have, there's no way to address that. I just feel that, you know, we were to have a minimum lot size in an agricultural area. I mean, two acres are really not agricultural anymore. A five acres or something. It might spread it out. I just think that that's something that we really should be looking at. The law has been a long time since I've been to the last month. But that is a good addition. And I've been to two acres. The law is well-known. Here's what... And I didn't realize until the night, you know, shame on me, we have an R3 designated right, designation right now of a minimum of five acres in a residential zone area. I don't understand that. It's a work all. I understand that. But you just said it. None of those R3s are currently five acres. To me, it makes sense. If you're agricultural, you have a minimum of five acres. And residential zoning is where you have your lesser lot sizes. And of course, that could be one of, you know, we can rezone something residential. If there's somebody who wants to come into a certain area, we can take a look at that only case by case.. Right now they're by right two acre parcels so anybody can build whatever they want as long as they meet the setbacks. There's a year I can think of at least seven homes that's gone up on my road. I mean an eight to zone that people have bought two acres or just a little over two acres and a house is gone. Just last week on home in Meal, a parcel, two drives have been put in on a parcel. It evidently has been subdivided. Two lights have been created and they're up for sale. You know, when I look at the number of homes that have gone up in the last year that we get to report on just like the old days, if you take each home and say, okay, average two children per home, 111 homes, 222 potential children full of school system. That is almost a quarter of an elementary school. And currently, you know, those homes are being built. And again, I'm not, you know, faulting anybody for wanting to make money and build a house and sell a house. But when you have a builder that's got eight lots and he's building eight homes. He sells those homes, he moves on to the next county, he has no skin in the game. You know, now you've got eight homes with two to three kids in each home because most of the homes that are currently being constructed in our county are 14 1600 square feet you know I mean for the most part you know starter homes with young families the property tax doesn't cover the added costs and services that the county has to provide for those homes so you know minimums lot sizes as well as well as possibly looking at some type of profits and I think that that's something you know you have to I think under state code we have to specify what the proper would be for you know hey mitigate the impact to our schools or you know emergency service. We would have to actually develop capital impact model so that's one of the reasons that we went to the 25 year CIP because you can back into the impacts and theoretically create a Crawford policy. So when they come to the board award to planning and zoning with a large scale subdivision they actually have to certify that they agree with the Crawford and then it's a mutually agreed upon around that's paid per hone, that's paid to the county at the point of the certificate of occupancy. Could be 18,000 hours. Right. Now I'm making that up for 14,000 hours. It's just whatever the model tells you. I mean there's a lot of interest weighing in on home building. You know, I asked the question, where are my kids going to live? They're all at the age right now where they're trying to figure out how to get out. They can't buy one anywhere east of me because it's still expensive. So they're going to be grabbing up these homes in Cumberland where they can afford it. And if we make them, if we restrict so much that they can't get those, we're going to want our kids to live. Are they supposed to live in a apartment with the rest of their lives? Or can they buy a house somewhere? And they can't buy a house in, how at the end they can't buy a house in gesture field because they're $500,000. So where they supposed to buy a house? No, and understand, and I think, you know, I'm not saying that someone can't build a house or put a house in common, it's just you know, the minimum of last sizes. When you're looking at these roads, like Mr. Allen was talking about, that you've got seven homes being put up and all these homes being put up, and they're so close, it's not agricultural anymore. It's like, if you want to build these houses, then let's designate some residential zoning in certain areas or whatnot. But what we end up having in this county, because I love the small area concept. The village concept has grown on me. I wasn't a fan in the beginning, but I like the targeted growth in certain areas, so as to not have it, you know, all over the entire county. But right now, we don't have that. Now part of the planning is how do we get to those scenarios, those situations. Right now, you have, with these smaller homes that are going up on every two acre lot that a builder can get their hands on the rest of the citizens are subsidizing people to be able to come here and I don't think that it's right on the rest of the taxpayers in this county to have to foot the bill for the schooling you know we're not we're actually being, I mean, how many new starts that we had this year? 111. 111. 111 last year, and I don't see any in the sight, and trust me, my livelihood depends on homes being built. I would have building supply. So I guess it's kind of, you know, going against myself and saying that I think there should be more restrictions on lot sizes. I run the risk of upsetting some builders. But I just think that it's unfair to those who are in this county expecting to be in a rural county, an ag county, and we're just putting up houses left and right everywhere. So we've just wanted to challenge this. Let's say we increase the lot size to five acres rather than two. That doubles the price of the land. Now a builder is not going to want to put $100,000 dollar house on that land because the land is too valuable. So now they have to put a three hundred thousand dollar house on the land and it just excludes all first time home back. And so in and I understand that point but what I'm looking at I'm not looking at the affordability of a house because I don't think that that is from where we sit. I don't think that that's the way that we should go about that because people need housing, understand that, people need affordable housing. But when you're talking about the future of this county and what we want and don't want this county, personally, I think that it would benefit the county much more to have a half-million dollar house on a 20-acre parcel because it's going to generate more tax revenue than a 300,000 dollar house on two acres. That's just the nature of what we're doing here. I understand that would be most beneficial to the county. But who can afford it? But I'm also looking at a broader picture. Most people that already live here aren't looking at building new houses. They live here already. Yeah, but you know what? They might, if the tax is more so high. Now, great discussion. Would you like for us to look at pros and cons above and bring that back as a deliverable and do this some more to the future workshop? And then I think that's a good idea. I think it's a great idea. Definitely. The tax revenue for 55 new. We can break all that down. Yeah, that's going to save the county going to the schools. Correct. Now, is there any... My grandmother's over 110 acres of in Jersey and it puts three thousand homes on that. Did the cloud a lot of noover. We started out at 6,500 right now, there are 450,000. If you could give one. Yeah. I mean, it's just real. Is there tax relief for, isn't there an age? We do have tax relief. That's through the commission of revenue. But what age is that? It's 65. 65. OK. 30. That is the doschains. Oh, god. It was 10,000. I just want to make sure we're not shooting ourselves in the flood. No. Yeah. So get A's to leave to somebody who's eight off their house, lives in their own home and is retired. But we can't get kids to get their close to. Let's assume when people in your starter home are staying in forever, even if they don't stay in and part of it, they got to get a start somewhere. We all market big things. Well we can't control the market and that's we're talking about doing. How many hours of human restarts we have now? That's most of the population. It hasn't changed much. Just about two or three times. I'm going to count it, which I think goes to the general fund. Has significantly increased record? We won't know until the next sentence. Yeah, I mean, you can see it right now. And don't trust me. That information, the 20, 20, 10, 6, goes some more around the target. It's like the 9,780. And we did not think that was an accurate panel. No. Because we didn't feel like we had lost a thousand people. It was 9,980 something for last we don't have for mechales and the side of one of those we said that people have asked for, that we don't have rules for. Mechanists, and aside, what kind of those we want to make rules for, or, you know, come with rules follow. Because, you know, we already have people asking about them. So let's, you know, instead of trying to create something that we hope people might want, let's look at what people are actually, or stated that they want want that's a good idea. All right. Okay. Anything else? I can't wait to get a count from the school system. We talk about people moving in and kids moving in. But how can they move in that? Yeah, graduation. They have a very small class, which I'm not saying does it produce a lot of delays in it. I it to ground. But it's fluctuating. I was told that my girlfriend wrote it there. It's not our elementary school, that's the past. I mean, that's what chip, I mean, I was told that elementary school, that the past, the rich school, would lend to the idea that you've got young families coming in with younger kids That's where they would obviously be we do at elementary school so Yeah, we'll get them a few years ago For items for a future workshop now. I'm gonna take these and stuff. No, you don't need me to do stuff. I'm gonna take it easy. Someone just got a big dose of steak. Is it me? Oh, it's a sandwich. We'll figure that out. Anything else? I'd like to see something on the stairs on the deeplexes I think that think that's a good thing. I've got that on the list. I mean, they look okay now. Right. I think there's going to be a lot of things going on. But I think there's going to be a lot of things going on. I mean, I don't think Wooden's secondary edge lashing on bumper cream. I think they're not going to have all of them all around. Yeah, they're they're not co-ed, they're horrible. And they're one way in. As long as they're pretty much the same. Right, because that's the building code too. Because that's the relationer of the town regulation. I don't much watch it. That's probably a town regulation. Because the building code changed where a single family one where you used to have used to allow or require two entrances or one entrance, one exit, and it's down to only one. And as long as it be right, I mean, as long as it meets building code requirements, I don't see out. We don't enforce, we didn't adopt and we don't enforce the property maintenance code. One, we don't have the staff for it. And two, it's beyond the scope of what rural Cumberland needs and walks. However, that may be the only way, in my opinion, unless we create a whole new building inspections code that we could require. Let's have the conversation. Metal stairs. If it's rigidged in the building codes, we'd go right outside the places where our others lay out. When you got to go up and then you've got the lower level on the upper level. But you know what I mean? There's no way there's no bottom down. There's no way you're fire fires when you put them up and down. There were some types of new and. But it knew they were already like, a painting in the store. It's been 10 years from now, and they're not fixed and they're rotten doors. Then it's a liability on the property owner. Yeah, I'll say it falls on the can. Yeah. These carcasses in foam, they're wooden chairs. They've only been like five years trying to get a deceased person from the second. So you are down. It's on the car. Very combined with that. I'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, they don't be much here. There's this. There's right. All right. All right. What the hell look at? That's all I have to do. So I think this looks like the next workshop workshop scheduled for Monday the 11th of August. The next joint shop for all of us. Sorry, joint workshop Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you. So So move I The chairman I move the meeting to may 19 May 19th, probably soon as we move. Second. Okay. Thank you. Yes. We've done this. We are going to be a journey on meeting until May 19th, as soon as we get to the second. Okay. Maxiel, can we go on here? Yes. Kevin Mito, can you go down? Yes. Sorry, can you go right away? Yes. Here we go on here? Yes. Can you clip it? Yes. Thank you. Thank you.