you you I would say next Monday. you All right. Welcome to the snowmass village town council chambers. Today is September 10th. It is 4 o'clock. Megan Rolke, all please. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Welcome to the snowmass village town council chambers. is September 10th it is four o'clock Megan Rolke all please Here Councilmember Merrill here Here councilmember Grestason here mayor Manson. I'm here. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. We're going to start off today with a discussion about a proposed updated lighting code. Dave, welcome. Let me introduce Sarah Nester, our co-confironance manager, working on this ordinance. Okay. Thanks, Sarah. So we have been working on an updated or the community development department has been working on an updated lighting code to move from Watts to Lumens to be more modernized and to protect our natural environment. So we are here today to present it to you and receive any feedback you may. Answer questions along the way. Great. I think just to add to that, tonight's just a discussion item. Getting input, it's an 80% draft. We are still, we started working with our GIS department on the map that's in here. It's by no means a finished product. We are still working on the table. There's a number of items, but we wanted to give you an update of where we were and get your ideas and input. Could you guys walk us through kind of the highlights what this does different, what's existing? I know it's all in the packet, but you walk us through verbally, what's how we got to where we are, please. So we are basically moving from Watts to Lumens and we have a tool that will be- Can you explain that? I understand that but explain the difference. Okay. Michael, do you mind stepping into it? He's a little better with this. The code is in our building code and like is our building official and has worked with this for a number of years. I mayor council. So basically say 20 years ago, you know, we had a code that was designed around Watts because in those days it was in condescent bulbs. And you kind of knew, okay okay if I have a 60 watt bulb this is about the amount of light I'm gonna get out of it. Well with the modern technology the lights now are low wattage but high intensity so what this really kind of takes a look at is how we can move away from the watts as our code was written and get at the actual amount of light that's being put out. And you'll hear foot candles, lux or lumen. That's a major amount of how bright something is. And where watts is kind of just a amount of power that it uses. So I hope that helps. That helps, thank you. Yeah. And the next part that the code's trying to look at is light trespass. So trespass from off the property upon which the light is being used for onto a surrounding property park area or something like that. On that. And that's one of the questions I had trust pass, is that the light is actually shining on a neighbor and disrupting them or when I look across the valley, and there's somebody who's got their house all lit up with outdoor lighting and huge lumens. While that light is not shining on my property it is disruptive is that light trespass or is that something different? So this would be measured you could measure that from the property line I don't remember exactly where we measure that from it's written to the code but it's not going to mean that you can't see that light but you should not be able to see the bulb. It should be completely covered. Yeah. And there is an amount of light that's not allowed to go past. Now there is a provision for holiday lighting. And we actually put a date in. I think that's one of the things that we talked about initially when we got into this. So there's a date when those have to go. And then there are other special lighting exceptions that would be allowed. I mean that the town has lights that are used as a part of celebrations or festivities. Yeah. So the ski co and this code does allow for the town manager or designate which would be the staff here taking a look at that. And then we've also purchased, Mike you might talk about what we purchased. Now we have a couple of light meters now that where you could actually go out and see what kind of light is, for instance, meeting or hitting the world at the property line. Not unlike a noise ordinance in that instance that it just gives you a pretty quick way to check it out. I think that there are some things that we'll have to consider. The building code would require that we have some outdoor lighting and steps and those kinds of things, but it also tells you how much light you need. So we'll be able to take these meters and say yes this is a required light and it does comply with the light and code as well. So what does that mean to the lay person like how do we put this into layman's terms like how do we say this house or this tree or whatever is too bright? Well I think that's the keys we're going to have some exceptions and things along the way, but generally speaking, it's how many, first of all, it's taking light fixtures and looking at those to determine whether or not those are meeting the new requirements and the old for that matter, but as far as being shaded or oblique in some capacity. But you know this is a little bit different and then you know you used to be able to say okay we need a 40 watt bulb here. We don't know that anymore so we're kind of stuck with okay this is how many lumens you get in this area. And there are some limitations for the total number of lumens that you can utilize in different zones. That's what the map is about. So, does that help? I mean, I might give a, we had this discussion with the, we did hire a consultant team. It's the same team that's worked on many of the area lighting codes, Asmons Code, Pickin County's, Assaults. And so there's a table that's, these are Lumen allowances for residential uses. It's on, I believe it's page eight of the packet tonight. And that's what we're looking at now. And what he did is he pulled out, you know, a 60 watt bulb and said basically that's 850 lumens. So that's the starting point. We're looking at this. Aspen's code allows for much more than what's in this. So we're evaluating that right now. We sent it out to the other departments for input as well. But that's sort of in layman terms. That's where you start at. And then you add on as you get into more multi-family or commercial areas or areas. If there's safety areas that are required by building code, that's an exception. Certainly the rodeos and exception, the rec center areas like that. So some places commercial zones might just have exceptions. Exceptions, or they're also gonna have a larger, a larger light output would be allowed. Okay, so the size of the lot would be, you'd have more lights. This doesn't mean that you can't see that light, like I think Commissioner, First thing we're saying, Councilman, I'm just saying, but it's just that you're not gonna see the light fixture itself and also the trespass off the site can be measured by the mechanisms we have. Okay. So we have a seasonal lighting dates from November 15th to April 15th noted in here. I know that the snowmess chapel decides to turn off their lights on March 1. It would seem to me that seasonal lighting like March 1 might be a little. I agree with you. April 15 is too late. Yeah. I mean, how do you guys feel? It's what we do now. April 15. That's in the code now, I mean. No. The town keeps our lights on. On our trees, on the intersections and everything. Tell the thiannusky season, which is that April 15th date. The white lights I'm talking about. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Roundabouts. Yeah. That's how we got that date. Okay. But those could be exceptions as well, right? Yeah, I'm just saying that's how we got there. It's like we just said, let's keep it as is and if you guys wanted to change it or reduce it or whatnot that's certainly your decision but it's around the ski season essentially and that's how we got these dates. You know I think some we should think about because I get that and but again it gets a little tired when you get into spring and you still have the Christmas lights up on everybody's house. And I do think that the town and what we have some residents to do should be sort of consistent. That's sort of tough to say, well, we're different from the town, but you guys have got to turn your lights off. But maybe it's something we should think about a little bit and come back on. Yeah. I was thinking about how, you know, it feels so nice because we're resort to have those pretty lights on the trees on the way up in some of the commercial areas. It feels appropriate, but some of the residential areas, it does feel like it can get a little too much too long. So I do wonder if it's worth having separate conversations about seasonal lighting for residential versus commercial and town property. I mean, there's I feel like that might be more accommodated by neighborhoods that are ready to have their neighbors turn off their lights a little earlier I mean there's houses that have them on now There's houses that still have their Christmas lights up and it's a little like, whoa. Well, and that's a question too. Like does it mean the lights are there but not turned on or they can't be turned on after these days. So do we care if people leave them strong up? It's the light. It's the light. As long as they're not on, yeah, we wouldn't we wouldn't force anything. It's the it's the light we force. I mean, I think I hear Tom what you're saying about, you know, the towns, like what we do as a town should be consistent with what other people, you know, we're asking of people in the village. but I do think that certain lighting, like in the roundabout, the blue tree at the crosswalk, like things like that are more like wayfinding and sort of welcoming versus like a house that has like an insane display of lights. I mean, I feel like the chapel has it, right? Like, you know, they turn them on and then they turn them off appropriately. Yeah. So I'm revisiting my statement. I think you're right. There's probably a way to do it between residential and commercial because I agree the lights in the, up at the mall. I mean, it's obviously, you know, we have longer periods, darkness in the winter. Those intersections, bus stops, I think it's important to have some light there. And we could make the mall or the center of base village a separate zone. That's something worth considering in the code. Yeah, so I think we could make different zones and then I think we certainly could make a different exception for town lights. Yeah, as a public infrastructure. I've seen stuff. Yeah. And residential and I think residential, probably March 1 seems to be March 1 or March 1, yeah. I mean, the other thing with that just kind of from a logistical standpoint is there's sometimes a lot of snow still March 1 not that easy to go out and take down your lights. You don't have to take them down just don't turn them on. Yeah just don't turn them on. Yeah because I mean I have some neighbors who have huge trees and they just leave on all the time and don't not leave them on leave the lights on the trees, but not during the moment. Yeah. OK. I feel like it's fine. Yeah. They're asking the same question. Right. So let's take a look at that. And we would, if we move forward, we would bring this forward as a public hearing and have more events about it. But I think you heard sort of our sediment maybe you can fear out out of put in the words. I had one I don't understand why the golf course is light zone two. That's why I said this is an initial draft. Okay. We just started working with our. I thought maybeotes could have bright lights by their their dims. It was a test. Okay, okay, but we noticed that as well So good Well, I just had a question about enforcement and how that would come about or not is it just You know people complain or that would come about or not, is it just, you know, if people complain or probably? When you speak about that, go ahead. So, as the person who's kind of been handling the complaints that we get, that's how it usually comes across as you get initially a complaint and then oftentimes a phone call if you can get a hold of the person will take care of it. And then we, with Sarah's programs that she's involved with or the enforcement side of it. Then if it gets, it can escalate and kind of go that way. But normally a visit or a phone call takes care of it. And it's our department. We're going to be right back. We've had a few, but it's mostly starts with a complaint. That's how we wouldn't intend to start driving around and looking for a violation. Most of the complaints that we get, which is, I don't know, five or six a year, generally speaking probably, originate from holiday lighting. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, I talked to somebody who said their neighbor has Christmas lights on their balcony like year-round. So they want to keep the peace in the neighborhood. They make a complaint. Are they recognized in the complaint? We don't come out and say their name, but every complaint has a name tacked on it. So it's public information if they really dug to find out who the complainer was. But we don't call and say your neighbor Jeff just complained about you. Right. OK. OK. So just looking at the prohibitions. Let's see. Lighting including neon and fluorescent used outline a structure. Is that exactly about outline the entire home? The entire home or a side or a front? Could be any part of it, not the. Okay. A facade lighting mounted above grade. Does this include trees then? It would, you know, we're after the light source itself. So if it was somebody was lighting a tree or lighting a tree by wrapping, it's all about the light source and how much they're allowed to have. So maybe we need to specifically say trees, maybe it's a separate line under facade lighting or in that section somewhere. So we can address those specifically. So one of the examples is 80 Nits. 80 Candela per square meter. I guess this is back to our original question. Like how do we get a sense of what that is? Well, I think some of this language is a little advanced. It has to do with the color of the light, the heat of the light. So to speak, there's more of the yellow, more calming type light. And then there's the bright fluorescent light. And some of this is covered in here, but I think in terms of the amount of light we're dealing with, I would think that like your average headlamp would be roughly 200 lumens. But we would look to our chart and say, OK, not only do you have too many lumens, but it's not pointed in the right direction. It's not directed to where it's kept primarily on your property. Does that answer your question? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think the intent really is to make sure that the lights are shielded so they're not like going everywhere. I think the way I describe it is if you're going to say how do you get this message across? This code implements what most people think our code does now. I mean, most people think we've got these downcast requirements and you can't really bug your neighbor and that's what the code was intended for 30 years ago But because of the technology it's not effective anymore And so I would if I was gonna make a real short, you know talking to somebody really quick what's the code do? This made this updates the code and implements it the way we think it actually exists today And it catches up to modern technology so you can't bug your neighbor There you go, that's the other. I think that this does, it does tighten up some things to that degree, but not today's time to where you can have safety lighting. That's why we're looking at some of the other jurisdictions around us that have gone through this and making sure our table is overly restrictive as to what we used to. Because that's exactly what we're attending today. Yeah, I think dark skies are really important. Really important. You know, the thing we talked about briefly was lighting when people are not in residence. How do we go about that? Interior lighting is a whole different thing. We do have properties that are only used sporadically. And a lot of them, it falls to the property maintenance person. In fact, a lot of the complaints that I have dealt with, I eventually work through and get back to a property maintenance person. And then they can go effect change. But it's pretty difficult to deal with the amount of lighting inside the house. So if they've got huge trees that are lit up and there's clearly no one at the house, I mean I guess it would fall under seasonal lighting, right? That's how we would address it. We might also. Or if they're unshielded? Yeah. Unshielded. A lot of the property maintenance folks have things on timers. And then what happens is they don't go, you know, at March 1st or whatever date you happen to pick, they need to remind her to go out there and change that timer so the holiday lights aren't coming on every night. So. But it's not, it's that, but also a lot of people have Applied you of trees which I don't think is appropriate under our code, but I'll come back to that But that has nothing to with holiday season and a lot of times those were on timers from the people are there And then they forget to germ off when they're not there, which is like what you're talking about And then I think what you're talking about. And I think in my HOA that's dealt with by a neighbor call up and say, hey, your lights are on. So again, that comes to what you're talking about. I mean, so I mean, so I'm making a complaint and you can act on it, right? On that, on page, whatever pages, I don't know. Under that light distribution, under general door lighting requirements, luminaries that many and more than 1,000 lumens should be fully shielded downward. I think that should be a lower number. I mean, 1,000 lumens for everybody, for us older people, was 100 watt lamp, was about 1,000 lumens. And a 60 watt lamp was about a thousand lumens and a 60 watt bulb was about 800 lumens and a 40 watt was like 450. I think that lumens are more than like 800 lumens should be fully shielded. I think 1000 is a little high for that. There are going to be, you be, most of these fixtures are gonna be full of shielded. Yeah, right. But I want it because like these up lighting for the trees probably aren't 1000 moment, but there are a lot of them in total, right? And I think the dark sky, I think, is really important. And the more we can do to reinforce that, the better. Can I just get some clarification? So, up lighting of trees is currently allowed? No. It is not. No. And it's not. Not allowed at all. Allowed in this coating at all, as well as it called out somewhere and it makes that clear. Yeah, I don't see that it's not. Am I in the old code or the new? In the new. Okay. Well, if you look under page 9, 18, 17, 18-270, all outdoor luminaries, I think it says, has to be shielded and not visible from adjacent properties. Well, it can still be a shielded light, it can be a can, the shining up. So you see the branches lit, you don't see the luminaire. But that's not, I don't know where you see it. I don't have a page nine. I put it off the packet. Section 18-270. Yeah, number three. All right. So the lamp source should not be visible, but if you're shining up on the tree, you may not see the lamp, but you're going to see the trees lit up and you're also negating the dark sky requirements. You got the definition of polar shielding. 5.7. Where do you see it? The definition of polar shield. Actually, it's pretty thoughtful of said. Do you know the light of grace and thought is the same thing? We can't hear you, Josh. I'm sorry. Please, please, little light. Just a minute. He's got it. I was just pointing out that the definition of holy shielded includes a movement here that produced no light rays of the simulated heat of the dark light. That would seem to be the actual effect. Well, but it doesn't. The other says optically shielded. It doesn't say fully shielded. So it doesn't refer to this definition. The code where they're consistently used to term fully shielded. Yeah, that would help. Yeah. The dress can be considered. I'm sorry, I'm not saying that. I'm sorry. Yeah, no, thank you. And then we have 11 PM as night time. Yeah, 6 AM and 11 PM is what we need to be lights out, right? 11 seems late. Well, I mean, I know my neighbors, they used to have their, when they live there, they had their trees all just white light, but in the winter, and they had them go off at 10. And they were really nice. They came over there like if they're bothering you, we'll turn them off earlier. But 10, I mean, and these were, I mean, it lit up the whole side of the street. So it's like for our house where our windows were facing it, it was very visible, but it didn't bother us. I don't know. I mean, I get businesses different, but 11 seems kind of late. I don't know. I've been told that younger people tend to stay out a little bit later than I do. I don't think 11's so bad. I might get your point, but I think, you know, there's still people going home from dinner and stuff. And it's sort of nice in the festive season. What about noise, curfews and stuff? Is that generally in codes 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock? It depends on the, well, Dave might speak to this more than I. I can talk about the construction noise, but the real noise cuts. Yeah. And that's a nice matter. Noise. I can talk about the construction noise, but the real noise gets. Do we have a noise matter? No, we have a noise matter. Our rule of thumb for amplified music is about 10 o'clock. Our noise ordinance isn't based off of decibels, it's based off of reasonableness. And the reasonableness is determined by the officer that responds. So 10 o'clock is typically our cutoff. OK. Well, listen, that's your point. Well, see, it's because I know that 10 o'clock's the hour. No, I feel like I saw that somewhere. I can't remember if it was in the discussion when Aspen was looking at theirs. I was just trying to look it up. But I feel like I saw like 10 o'clock somewhere. I was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and was looking at the ASP and give you an example, we have these neighbors who's lights were on all the time during the day. And I saw the property manager and I said to the property manager, you know, they're lights are on all day. And he said, yeah, that's how they want them. But like, you know, to prevent like robberies and look like someone's there, but I'm like, it's such a waste of energy. I mean, I feel like that to me is really wrong. Like you should, I mean, obviously sometimes like minor and on timers, I might just by accident forget turn off my front porch light. But I'm talking like all their lights, all day on. Inside the house or outside? Outside. That's crazy. That's what I'm saying. And the property manager looked at me like, I had 10 heads and I'm like, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I mean, it makes people think nobody's home because we turn the lights off. But he's like, that's the way the owner wants it. Well, but it gets to your point, like these houses that sit empty, you know, I mean, sometimes the property managers go in flip on lights and they don't get turned off and I usually just email my neighbor and say, hey, can we add to this code that outdoor lighting should be turned off during daylight hours something that effect? And that's a good point. No, I think it's true. It's a good place to do it. Like I understand the inside, but I know it's ridiculous, but people are doing that. I mean, we can add anything to the code. I think that becomes, if you leave your light on accidentally, are you in violation? So, right. But I'm saying, like, I could have been said to the guy, it's against the code in Snowmass Village. Or I could say to my HOA, these people are violating the code. I mean, right now, it's like there's nothing to it. But I mean, now it's like there's nothing to it, but I mean people are doing it And I think it's one thing at night. It's another thing like during the day when they're just wasting all of these that these resources So if you go down that path you guys just changed the leash law because the leash law said that our dog has to be on a leash And no one did it and you wanted the dog to have a little bit of freedom, and so we changed it so that it matches. I mean, if that's a really an issue that you want to solve for, we should put it in there, but then if it's not, we should expect to get phone calls when those lights are left on during the day, because it's against the law to leave your lights on during the day, whether it's an accident or not. Which which side do you want to air and some people aren't going to notice in neighborhoods where there's barely anyone here all the time? I hope my analogy I'm using is if you set the laws the law people are going to expect the laws the law and it's going to be enforced That's the law and that's worth that's what's the rub with the lease law is that wasn't enforced that way It was there's a 30-year tradition which changed a lot to make it 30 tradition. If it's something you guys want to make it absolute, we're going to get phone calls. It's just your call. And we're going to get phone calls. We can change the code later. But I like the idea of putting something when you say, you know, except where it likes to need for safety or that, that if you can show it to the lighting should be turned off during the day. OK, late hours. Can we put a shud in or does that have to be, if you're gonna make it a lot, it has to be a shud. If you're gonna make it a lot, make it a lot. Let's do it, let's put it in and see what happens, because it's on the side of sustainability. And we can have a chat with our consultant too, see if that's something. Yeah. See what they say because I think it does you know go with our Sustainability, I mean we're really trying to chip away at this I was just looking at the the purpose section because I know that you know nighttime Lighting is one of the things we are concerned out about but if I look under this the second purpose there Right at the beginning outdoor lining only when it is needed to help mitigate wasted energy and unnecessary light pollution. I mean it does talk about night sky. That's what we're typically getting complaints on but maybe if any add into that language that exterior language be turned up you know. And I get it today you know um getting back to 11 p.m. That's in our current code. So I think that's another reason we use that. The 11 p.m. is in our current code. Okay, then that makes sense. And ask them to change it to 10 p.m. I mean that's... Aspen is 10 p.m. Lights out on homes and businesses from 10 p.m. to 7 a.m. or an hour past closing or before opening for businesses that operate outside of those hours. It would be too complicated to have a residential curfew, like curfew that was different from public space, lighting curfews. Or would it be worth having a 10 p.m. neighborhood? Well, I personally think like if I'm coming home it somewhere. An aspen is 10. We don't have to do what they're doing. But I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I just remember seeing it somewhere at Aspen is 10. We don't have to do what they're doing but that is what they do. I mean I'd be fine with 10 o'clock too. I'm not okay with 11. I just think that are the festive season people are out. Yep. And there is a provision in the current code that allows for commercial areas to be on that. So if you got, which is good. Part of going on at Viewliner. Whatever. OK. That was the way I thought. So once the changes are made and approved updated, is there, will there be a plan to sort of, I mean, I feel like especially here in Somas, property managers, this is like one of the things that's on their list of to-dos of dealing with people's lights. Like how do we plan to make sure that information gets out there effectively, especially to those people? Because I think that's a huge chunk. Even if someone lives here full time, they may have a property manager. We can take, we haven't got to that step yet. We honestly wanted to get this before you guys see if it's going in the right direction. It still has to go through two hearings and implementation. But as with all of our laws we understand that enforcement is important and an education but for enforcement is even more important. So we'll make sure that happens. All right. All right. So we'll plan to see your red line version. Next. Sometimes. Sometimes. Sometimes. Give us a soon. Well, you know it's a priority, but we Right anything on the lighting topic everybody good. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the input. It was a little Sure Joe Yeah, well first I just want to thank you guys. I mean for the focus on. Josh, would you officially and yeah, Joseph Goodman. Thanks for the big comment. I just want to thank you guys for the prior organization of Dark Skies. We're really aligned with our values and why we're here. So it's important to us. Thank you. Thank you. If you know for comments, you know, frankly, it's not fun telling on your neighbors. I really don't like it. I would prefer never to have to do it. You know, I don't want to make assumptions about what trees and we'll ask the town. But I would say ask the town. But I would say if the town did consider reasonable, I would prefer it to periodically, once a year, twice a year, go drive through the neighborhoods and arrive at your conclusions and enforce the laws as opposed to relying on neighbors to tell on neighbors. Because I'm happy to pitch in if that's what's best. Well, you know, every neighborhood is pretty much in an HOA, so the HOAs can really sort of do that, I would think. Well, I think, like, I know in mind, we have, they hired someone that sort of, like, oversees for any infractions, and, like, you could just talk to the Choa isn't say if you have a compliance person for your HOA like they they will notice those things I mean it's been happening anyways in our neighborhood I know for sure. Cool well thanks to the any consideration that you all feel is appropriate for that. Yeah okay. Thank you. If I might, I mean, many of us live in the town as well. So if we see something that's flagrant, I think we're going to look at it. If it's not flagrant, I mean, we also have a lot of homes and areas that were built a while ago. You've got driveway lighting that might not be fully shielded, but it's dim. Yeah, we don't always know about that without driving by when those lights are on. Right, okay, great. Anybody else for public comment? Okay, we look forward to seeing the red line version soon. Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure. All right, coming up next, we've got a construction management opportunity. I'll just introduce this right quick but back a few weeks back on August 19th the council receives some public comment on construction management and construction activity in town. So as Mike Mathini are chief building official to be here you know Ann Martin is going to come up Dave's going to stick around and then everybody knows Assistant Chief, Dave Heivoli is gonna come up and kind of talk about the different ways that we tackle this now. I know Mike's got some numbers, what night he's gonna be sharing and what we're treating this is kind of an educational opportunity for you all, get some feedback from you guys and see what comes out of the discussion but I'm going to kick it over to Mike and let him talk about how we do it today. Hello everyone. As he stated earlier, I'm Mike, the chief building official here. One of the things that I think Clint wanted me to talk about was our construction mitigation plans. We get a construction mitigation plan for a lot of these projects. They vary. We have different levels. Something like the base village, we might get a 50-page construction plan. But if it's a re-roaf, we have a short form. It's a couple pages of, you know, it's a PDF that you can, it's a fillable PDF that kind of tells us where, where things are going to be and how they're going to handle it. We do require a lot of HOA or other approval before we issue permits. We'll tell you that it's busy right now. We have, we pulled some numbers from August 1st, July 31st, from the last several years so that we could kind of have a real comparison as to what is going on right now. And it's busy. We have about 500 active permits. And I think a lot of that is smaller than it was a couple of years ago, the projects themselves are smaller with the exception of the base village, but the numbers and the valuations are up. So I wanted to bring that to your attention first and foremost. But I'm happy to answer any questions you might have in terms of the CMP's HOA, the service, the expert on the HOA, you know, getting those pieces in place before we issue permits and Just here to answer any questions that you might have. I think the concerns that were brought to us on August 19th were from public utilities construction. So I mean, do they require to submit a construction management plan to you? No. That's the route to you. They go through the right-of-way permit process. And so they do submit their construction schedule and it's a right away permit because they're working within the right ways. As you recall, there was four water main breaks on that road and the district needed to address that aging water line. So as we've talked about before, as when utilities are coming in, instead of doing water line one year, gas line the next year, electric line the two years, was trying to combine these utilities all at one. The difficulty with that project is that the waterline varied from one side of the road to the other side of the road. And so there wasn't room to stage and construct. However, they have been able to let the residents through as much as there was some comments that it's not available. They've been working with the residents and they know very well the residents trying to get through. Specifically in the closure area and they do have open trenches mode majority of the time so they have to make sure it's safe. But they also have the means to handle emergencies. So still plates backfill quick. They've worked with the Fire Department and the emergency services. So there are all of the entities that are aware of the project to make sure we're providing the services in those types of situations. So I'm just trying to get the connection between, I mean, understand all of that. And the citizens. Yeah, so I think- The residents who are affected, is there a comprehensive plan that's created of all these different utilities going on? Is there a, that goes through you? It doesn't go through my community. So we sit down and talk about construction projects. Obviously, sometimes they, is there a written plan like Mike gets from private developers? Yep. They have their construction traffic control plans and their management plans. There also is their master plans, to our capital and provisional plans. Utilities have same things. As you know, sometimes they move from what they thought they were going to do to something else based on the aging infrastructure. But they have, you know, they're same kind of structure that the town has in the sense of their funding sources. Would it be possible? I mean, can you talk about for a minute, like how you coordinate with Water and Sand, Holy Cross, Gas Company with your road projects, and you sit down with your five years, and you're three years, and sometimes emergency happens, so this is outside the emergency stuff. We sit down. Yeah. And try to coordinate with the road culture. Maybe even specifically talk about what you're doing with water and sand on a brush creek right now, trying to plan for that closure. Yeah, so we sit down and look at their capital projects with their engineers and Kit, hand-be from the district, but we do the same thing, well, the Holy Cross Electric and Black Hills. And CenturyLink, as well as one of the providers and Comcast. And we sit down and have an annual meeting usually it's in October, but we also sit down, I mean, I'm in contact with them quite often about what's going on. And we look through what their plans are and try to coordinate what they're going to do. So example, we talked about water projects that there's several sections of brush creek road that need to get replaced. And when then we sit down we look at what's going to impact the residents as far as the detours. And unfortunately there's there's when there's construction there's detours and we have to deal with that. I mean so one of the examples we had on far away subdivision is we have a section of road that we need to attend to. That we aren't attending to because it was in the detour route and so it would have been you know that it was the detour route basically that we need to do a retaining wall situation and some paving. So we work through on like what they have going on what we have going on and try to get these things all aligned so that it's not just all. Yeah, no, I understand. I think you guys do a great job with that. But I think the piece that's missing is informing and getting feedback from the affected residents. And maybe we should set up a policy that emergencies are different. I understand that when there's a planned project, you start six months ahead. You have a, you notify people are going to be affected, the residents. You let them come into a meeting here and you tell them what's planned and you hear their input and maybe there's a tweak that you can do to make some people happier. Maybe there isn't. Maybe just inform them. But I think what we heard was, you know, people didn't feel they had any input on this. And then all of a sudden, their lives were affected for six months. I understand that. I think part of the issue is that the town manages the roads. The utilities are managed by other entities. And so they're responsible for their public relations and their management of those projects within the guidelines. So that's part of the difficulty. But maybe the town could manage that process and bring them in and have them because the citizens, the residents look to us. They're not looking at black hills to come in and talk to them. And as you said, they all bring their plans to you, complete plan, you review it. So I don't know, what do other people think? I mean, just to be brave, we get some way of informing and getting feedback and maybe modifications and meeting with the residents. It's challenging for sure. I appreciate what you're doing because I went up to far away yesterday and kind of poked around and there's open trenches. There's, I mean, because we're doing water, gas, fiber. And then I talked to some subcontractors who are doing electrical as well. It's a lot of work. Yeah, it's not fiber on that area. But aren't we putting fiber up there? We're not. Okay. So anyway, all the utilities are having to go in there and sometimes they can't all go in the trench, right? Correct. They're offset because of the safety standards. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean I'm I can appreciate the logistics of making all this happen and it's it's challenging So what what did we do this year in order to inform the residents? Well, I know the district went around and notified all the residents We also did some social media posts. We do try to help with some of those things. I mean, it's not I'm not saying Not ours. We're not doing. We do try to help with some of those things. I mean, it's not saying not ours. We're not doing it. We try to help with those. There's message boards that went out on the job sites that are there. Could things been better? Yeah, I'm sure we can always do better. And we'll always strive to do better. So it's a difficult situation with the tight area and a lot of utilities. So it's all I could say. Yeah. And I think one of the things that really amplified that experience in this particular neighborhood is that all these construction projects in addition to the necessary utilities project. And then we drive through a detour that takes us past seven or eight large residential construction projects. And I understand that that's really a challenge to try to kind of figure out how to overlay residential projects with a necessary utility project. But I think that going through a detour and then being detoured on your detour and then being stopped along the way and passing, you know, I counted 78 construction vehicles on the road at one time. I think that's what really amplified this situation and made it hard to tolerate for the residents there this summer. Good. I don't have an easy fix to that other than, you know, if there's a way to look at how many permits are out and perhaps have conversations with utilities at the time and say this whole neighborhood's under construction right now coincidentally would next summer be better? Unfortunately, some of those housing projects are two to three years long. I mean, then I can tell because some of our brand new homes go in at some. And just to be I think it's clear, but just to reiterate, we don't currently limit those construction projects on private property. I mean, the limit is how fast we can process and of course, throw in this and all that kind of stuff. But currently underneath the code, we don't say two per street or five per block or anything at the sort or like Only two vehicles We do do that the vehicles are They don't be on the private property might have to do that in this and you do do that but we don't Try to say that a certain neighbor can only have so many permits per season or anything. I mean, I have a question just because I wonder, it sounds like a large part of this neighborhood is construction projects in addition to the utilities. But it seems like this year has been kind of a perfect storm for utility work. And so I'm wondering, or imperfect. I'm wondering if, like what's the timeline for those project, the utility work being completed. And then do we have a long time where we won't have much of that. So that project wraps up in October and it'll be done by the second week of October. I'll say it'll be wrapped up in October. Yeah there's no, obviously no. We don't do utility construction typically in lots it's a major water mean break which is not us it's the district from October 30th to April 15th. And typically in some areas, not till June 15th because the weight restrictions on the roads that are not the major corridors. So those are basically dead periods. It doesn't mean there's not construction going on. Like there's housing construction going on, but they're limited a little bit on their type of activities that are going on. They're single trucks, not heavy duty trucks until June 15th. Sometimes we do lift that weight restriction depending on the season. If it's a low snow year, a little moisture year, and the roads don't have the moisture underneath them, I have lifted them May 31st or Memorial Day weekend. For the last two years I have not. So, that's a direction from council. If you want me to hold steadfast on not permitting, we give away one exemption permit for like a crane coming in. It allows the activity to continue to operate on the job sites, but by code, I don't have to give that, you know, that's kind of I'm keeping things going, but it also, what also happens is if they're held up till June 15th, all hell, excuse my language, heck breaks loose. So that's, you know, that's a conversation, that's a direction that would like to be taken place. I can change that method. So then as far as the other projects coming through, it just depends on, we're talking about next year's construction projects. We're looking at partnering with Black Hills on the Trail Project. We have more of the infrastructure projects that are like building type of projects that much road like there's the typical road overlays we're working through that process but there's not the district doesn't have a water line it's they're trying to do plant improvements next year which is another reason we looked at 2026 for conversations on the roundabout construction. So, no. And I'll just go back to this waterline project wasn't planned. Yeah. There was four water main breaks. And when those water main breaks take place, it cuts off fire safety, cuts off water, domestic water to those residents and it also causes property damage. And so it was not like, you're right, it was like a perfect storm of aging infrastructure and just things need to be addressed. And then what are some other mitigation strategies that, so you say you do limit vehicles and then like noise pollution or there are certain times of day when that is construction like that sort of thing is already in place but it seems like we're still getting complaints about it so can we tighten that up? Can we increase it? Like, so. Right, right. In terms of noise, we do have work hours that are seven to six Monday through Saturday. And there are decibel limits in place. And that usually takes the form of how many decibels are reaching the property line. There are some exceptions for various things, but it is in place. It's a difficult time of year. As Ann was saying, you have her projects that are trying to finish up, but she also have a lot of people coming in and trying to finish up before the ski season. And you know, oftentimes they'll bring in people who aren't as familiar with the rules and they just have to be reminded. And that was exactly what we did a couple of weeks ago. I stopped at every residential site up there and said, hey, need to tighten it up. And I think the word was received pretty well from the general contractors. They seem to have that all down. A lot of times you get folks coming in that are subcontractors that don't know that. And with the push to get Anne's project done, and as well as everybody trying to hurry up before the season starts, perfect storm is a very good analogy as far as I'm concerned. So. Can I, I mean, bikes that 500 permits, this is one of their busiest construction years in a long time say. It's the busiest. And how many can we have in a year, permits? Sorry. Is there a limit to the amount of permits? Because they range from roof replacements to chimney fixes to kitchen remodels to our heaters, you know, and all sorts of, that's everything. I mean, the question I don't know that we're receiving in an ordinance amount of complaints on our site on staff. We haven't seen it. There's more than ever because there's more permits than ever. But if you guys are hearing something in an ordinance or whatnot, of course, we got the public comments and that's why we're here. But if there is like a systematic or systemic issue going on, I'd love to understand what that is. Or is it just, no, it's stinkin' busy. And we've got to change some stuff in the short term. I don't know exactly what you all are here on that front. I mean, I think, in my opinion, that if you're just the general public, like you don't know the difference between what's the utility companies doing versus what the town's doing versus what a resident's doing. It's all just construction and traffic and trucks and noise and so for them it's no different. Like I understand it is for you guys but and we may understand that but it's not different for them. So I guess when I was thinking about this you know since we had the public comment and in preparation for this meeting, like I try to think about like, what are the biggest issues that we need to solve? Like what is the goal we're trying to accomplish? Are we trying to help people feel like it's a quality, better quality of life situation where they're not constantly being surrounded by noise and trucks and all these things, which is one of the reasons why people live here. Or is there something greater that we're trying to accomplish? And we have to figure out how to balance the public versus the private. And maybe, I mean, I know Jeff's not here, but maybe it is a question for Jeff, is that do we need a process and control over the number of projects that are in close proximity to each other? And what tools are available to control the phasing and the impacts on the neighborhoods that have multiple projects going on? You know, it's a small town, so I feel like our projects are felt very acutely and like very amplified to people that live here. So the question is like, what are the tools? Like can we control the timing? Like what is allowed within our purview and authority to control that could create a more sustainable environment? I would start with your first, is that a Jeff question? It's a council question. Well, I know, but Jeff in terms of like understanding what other communities are doing and the rules that go with them Aspen is back and we'll speak for Mike for a second let him jump in as he worked there for a long time They're the most strict organization probably in the state and maybe in the country and so we've got it We can show you as strict as you can be if that's an example. But you'd have to answer the question as a policy. Is that what you want? Because there's a lot of ramifications to that decision. And it's really up to you guys to say, hey, this is what Raymond for. Whatever it might be, and you describe it. And then we can come back to you with some kind of examples of how to reach it. But there's a thousand tools out there. Well, I guess I just want to know what those tools are and what do you have from the most extreme to phasing of things that you can do that in the meantime can make things better for the people that are having to endure. Keep in generalities and please correct me. Aspen's probably the most restrictive organization around. I would say we're probably second tier, but we do that on purpose for lots of reasons because we think it's the right way to do it. It's the right way to treat business. It encourages all the kinds of things that this community has kind of wanted. Easy, flow of work, those kinds of things. And then you can go all the way down valley, pick a town valley, and it's going to be even less restrictive than us. We, again, might please jump in, but we try to find that sweet spot. And if we need to tweak one way or the other, there's lots of that. But again, we think we've hit that for decades. And if we need to go one way or the other because things have changed and we need to catch up We need to hear that from you guys, but I think we're actually I'll say this as the town manager I'm proud of the way we do it. I think I think we do it exactly right and I don't say that about much But we're hitting it pretty well You know I think I might oh Not yet, oh, Alyssa, I think. I might, oh, sorry. Not yet. Yeah. Alyssa, I think, you know, I don't think it's the residential projects that people are so upset about. I think it's the public works projects, which are compounded by the residential projects maybe, but it's really the people in this room that generate the projects that I think are most disruptive because they usually have to do with roads. You know, some of these don't work on a house, might disrupt the neighbor next door, but it's not usually, and that's supposed to be disrupting the roads. No, but when you have like multiple projects in a neighborhood, I mean, yeah, but have you heard complaints from people about that? Yes, you have. Like, you know, between like the dirt that gets kicked up and like I happen to live on a street that ends in a cul-de-sac. So what happens a lot is the trucks go all the way up the street to turn around at the cul-de-sac and come back down. And whether you're out there pushing a stroller, walking a dog, a lot of these people are not as familiar with their neighborhoods. They're going fast and not paying attention. And I think that is also part of it. And if you are a person that has little kids or animals or whatever, it isn't the most pleasant experience. So yes, I hear what you're saying. I think that we have been hit like Susan said by this storm of like All these projects that some we didn't ask for and just happened and we had to deal with but in people's minds They're not differentiating. It's just they're just seeing it all for what it is and wondering is this gonna continue for the next You know for the foreseeable future and so that was kind of my question is is once we finished The things that we have planned then is it going to be calmer and and more palatable or or are because we have a record number of Other projects going on private projects is that the way of the future and that's gonna continue? And so I think it's something that we should pay attention to for sure. And I also, I think the other conversation is because I know when Clint says ramifications from like... Being strict. Yeah like being strict. Yeah, being strict. That, some of those ramifications are on purpose. People are towns have decided we wanna limit things because it will do something that we feel is important for our town. So that's another, I think, conversation, not just about the construction noise and whatnot, but what does that do when, you know, people are rebuilding everything all the time. And so I think that's kind of a bigger conversation. And there are limits. I mean, I get like, I get sometimes like weird things happen. Like someone's has a flood and then they have to redo all their floors and all this construction that they weren't planning for. But I do, I would be curious like if we did start paying more attention to neighborhoods and what's going on and somehow maybe considering, like, I don't, I don't want to say like a limit, but just paying more attention, starting to track the information a little more closely and seeing like what could be the most useful thing we could do to sort of promote better habits of building and quality of life. I mean, I think the other thing is too is like when you go on the town website, usually, like right now there's an alert for upper breach, brush creek trail closure, right? But I get asked all the time, well when is this gonna be done? Or how long is this going on? Or what do I have to be aware of? It might be nice if there was like a pinpoint that had just like construction updates that said, you know, woodbridge, this is the phase we're in for woodbridge, this is the estimate time it'd be done. Then we could point to people and say, hey, the town has this great link go on, it'll tell you projects that are upcoming and where we are in the various projects. We know but the general public doesn't know and there's a lot of people that want to be in the know. They want to know how long they have to endure for. That's a good idea. Yeah. Well, we do a good chunk of that though on the website now, right? I don't think we have the wood bridge on there. They have alerts. Like there's alerts. It looks like it has bullet items, but I think Lissa saying is having a page this dedicated. Dedicated. Right. And here's what's coming, like once a year, like plans the next year, like here's some things. And I know that some things change because like Woodbridge took longer than normal because of whatever. But I just think giving people some sort of time frame, it allows them to process in their head better how, what they're looking at, what it's, what's happening. Because a lot of people just don't know. One thing I would like to point out that I think is going to help. Anne's project looks like mid-October, mid-to-late October. Far away, Rose. Water Districts project. Sorry, Anne. Water Districts project. Water Districts, yes. Not'm sorry, yes, not ants. It's everybody's. In addition, on Wood Road, two of the big buildings are scheduled to finish up, you know, October, November. And I think- Those are these buildings building to me? Yeah, and I think that's going to help trim them. Yeah, a lot. Yeah, so those are a couple of things that are for those two roads. Most of the private construction in terms of commercial is sort of done. I mean, base villages, they got one building loved after that. And that's it. And then there's the center and there isn't much else. Well, they'll there will always be something. I mean, there's, I mean, it's just the nature of, you know, infrastructure. I mean, there's, I mean, it's just the nature of, you know, infrastructure. I mean, the big snow mass being 50 years old, like, we know that we got to replace the culvert down by the below the wood bridge. And that's probably, I think that's scheduled for next year. So that's going to be impactful. And to this point, you know, maybe that's something we need to start talking about now so that residents are you know know that that's coming. I really like this idea of putting on the website a page of construction activities called wherever you want. So we actually have a page but we could do better I understand that we do I just to clarify. There is information out there. The one woodbridge is definitely one that's been probably missing on the link on the sense of it's extended a lot further. We've done notices out to residents to affected areas, but not the greater good conversation I get. Yeah, so. And maybe just something that has like upcoming calendar. Like, you know, obviously not set in stone, but it just helps people wrap their head around stuff. And I think it helps to know what it's for. Like, you know, if you've got a culvert that's failing, that it's easier to understand than oh. Yeah, so that's important. Yeah, let me explain. Let me try. I just wanted to, I think there's certainly the town projects. I certainly understand the page. And I think that's a good idea. I know we do that. And maybe we could improve. Just to speak to what we've got coming and how many building permits, I know certainly Mike's team deals with that and has all of those permits coming in. But we are dealing with older homes, older condominiums, the mall is older, the view line is older, all of these buildings need improvements. And that's, you know, I'm seeing that so many permits come in from people that are trying to take care of the homes that are just older buildings. And you also have older infrastructure. What I do want to point out whether or not we put a moratorium on building permits or limit hours is the number of comments we get. And this is what I see as a community development director coming in. How good it is to work in snow mass village where if you need to put up hot water heater in or get your roof re done or fix your patio that you can do it. And I don't want some of, I know that there are concerns and there are things we can do better on, but I want you to hear the number of positive comments we get and it's 50 to 100 a year. I mean I hear it. I hear it in the construction site. I just want to point that out to you. We get a lot of positive comments about and we've got a lot going on here with a small staff and I know that Mike and our team went out and we can maybe work better on the construction management. We talked about hours of, you know, hours can be changed pretty easily if we wanted to change that in the code. That doesn't affect things too much, but we have a lot going on and we're gonna have a lot going on. Even after base village, you've got 10 a, b going on, but the enclave's still working on theirs. I don't know when them all comes in or all of the condominiums timber lines doing work. I mean we can go up and down the entire town but there's a look it's an older town and older infrastructure older buildings. Yeah now I hear it from contractors all the time. They love doing work in stone nest village because the process is so much easier. That's good. We want to be efficient. I'm really hesitant to put a limit on what we can do because somebody's water heater goes out. They don't want to be sitting around going, hey, I can't fix my water heater You're not gonna give me a permit. There's a limit. Why? I think that's a different circumstance. Well, is it? I mean, it could be an unintended consequence as well. I would say you want to sell your home and your home. It's going to need some renovation by the new owner. owner, the owner is not can be able, I mean, they're be hesitant to buy a home because they don't know when they can get a permit. I mean, it has ramifications that are, I think I would like to avoid the restricting if we can. Well, I don't think we nest out the restruct. I just think that we could create a game plan for monitoring and just like gathering more data, figuring out what the goal is that we're trying to accomplish with this discussion and for the future. I mean, I don't think we have to go like zero to 100, but there might be some things we could do that could help create a better environment in the short term for people in the village and the feeling like there's just not construction everywhere they look. I like that thought. And having some kind of neighborhood understanding of how many permits have already been pulled and just an understanding of that and maybe evaluating it. And again, I don't understand the permitting process well enough to say like yes, you can have a permit but not until next year if that's the kind of opportunity that could exist for just supporting fewer projects all at once in one location. I think one thing that an example of some things that are going on that would give me pause there a little bit. A lot of folks when they're buying or selling or just trying to get insurance right now. And we have a lot of roofing permits going on right now. And it's due to the fact that they are replacing cedar shakes with more fire resistant, better products. And it's due to the fact that they can't get their house insured with that wood in place. So there are other circumstances that you know I would hesitate to say okay well we've only had four rifts or we can only have four projects going that would the H.O.A. if they chose to go that route, I think at least that would be something that they could work on together. And if they wanted to do that, but to say, well, you can't replace your roof right now, there's two other ones going. Those kinds of things are going to go. That's great. I think you can get whole can of worms when you go down that road. I think I'm thinking more of the facelifts and remodels that are unnecessary or the upgrades that maybe just because you just purchased a home and you just want to do something nice and fun. The unnecessary. I'd rather not be like Aspen in that regard. Yeah, and I would be curious if there's been any positive outcomes to that from your experience. Is there anything that's gone well there? In terms of limiting. In terms of limiting. Is there anyone program that worked? Well, the first I would say I've been through I think three different moratoriums up there over the years that I was up there for almost 15 years. One thing you get is a tremendous, it's really stressful on staff. What happens is they put in a lot of plans, you know, that this, okay, the moratorium's coming. So you get a lot of half-baked plans coming in, and then it's kind of a nightmare for staff. Then at the end of it, you also get that. You get, oh, we've been sitting here on this for five or six months or whatever, amount of time, and you get this other big load of stuff, and it kind of crushes the staff. But, you know, I would probably recommend, I don't think that's the way to go. That's my personal opinion. But I think, you know, maybe the HOAs, maybe they could work in trying to figure out what would work for their area. I think that's a more reasonable approach. I think also the CMP program, you know, it can get out of control with too many people coming in and all those kinds of things. And I think what I did the other day and driving up far away and just saying, hey, get the vehicles out of the road, get, you know, I think that did a lot. I think that, I mean, rather than limit the number of permits, work on the mitigation of the impacts more. You know, keep the vehicles off the road, keep the noise down, minimize the disruption, might be the first step. Yeah. Yeah, I'd like to hear more if there are other strategies to do that or if we can just use the ones we have and you know. I think we have the right strategies in place we need to you know when we don't see we don't hear a lot of complaints in our department but when we do hear something you know like the effort I put in the other day it was. And so I think that's a good approach. Yeah, it sounds like that's what we need to focus on. It's just making sure that the subcontractors are up to speed, make sure their vehicles are off the road, more respectful to the neighbors. And then we just need to communicate better with our construction projects, or if it's water and sand, or whatever it is, maybe we just you know have more updated information you know more work for Greg so we can make sure he's pushing that information out there and keep you know keep our community informed you know why aren't we moving forward with the wood bridge well we got to let the glue lambs dry out. We're going to inject them with glue and help tell the story so that we're better informed and so is the community in the understand the situation. Yeah, the communications important. Yeah. Makes sense? Public comment? Yep, come forward. Public comment yep come for it Yeah, I chose a good man. Thanks for all the Consideration to destroy important topic You know this topic is reflected in like all so much of the public the town's commitments right in terms of environmental and sustainability and quality life. And you know, when you go on the town website and you've read things like, you know, the town commitment to make nature the dominant feature of the town and then you hear so much construction traffic, it really feels like we're failing ourselves and our families and our visitors right now. Frankly, I mean, I think there's some good ideas here. I don't think we have enough data to do an effective job right now. I haven't really heard of we're talking about like construction traffic, if we're talking about time on sites, construction impact. I don't think we've understood the problem well enough. You know, for example, I heard one comment that there's, you know, some projects are two to three years long. I think we should understand that. I think we should understand what's driving that construction cycle. And when we have, you know, an understanding of that and writing that that is available to you all, I think you all will be able to make more informed decisions. You know, for example, I have the hypothesis based off of observations that, you know, the civil works takes a significant amount of time on many of the projects in this town and it also contributes a disproportionate amount of traffic impact and local air pollution and noise pollution. We haven't talked about civil works today and it's amazing how much civil works we do when we do redevelopment projects like when we scrape an old building that maybe it's due for repair but then we build a mansion at the same property. We've got a couple of those on far away that are particularly contributing to the situation that we're here today for, and we had not talked about civil works because we do not have adequate information. So I'd really urge us to get more information and keep working on this problem and make a lot more progress. You know, similarly progress. Similarly, the amount of the type of landscaping and the quantity of landscaping locks in construction traffic or service worker traffic and noise for decades to come after these projects. When people move in, they tear down the local landscaping that can include asthmins and other things that are beneficial for fire, mitigation and for wildlife. And they replace with a Kentucky bluegrass. We're locking in leaf blowers and other combustion emissions and traffic for decades to come. Why don't we have information about what percent of our construction related traffic and building maintenance related traffic? It's coming from these specific sources and uses so we can make informed decision. So it's nice that this is clearly prioritized here, but I think the quality of effort is, in my humble opinion, like a C, at best, maybe a D. It's really lacking data. You know, when data came up two to three years, we didn't ask why. Why is it two to three years? What can we do? Let's improve that cycle time. Now, to respectfully reply to a comment from our esteemed town manager, I showed up at a barbecue last year and I expressed my concern about contractual-related traffic. The feedback I got was, we get complaints daily from the town manager. And I heard the same feedback from the police department when I asked, when I said my family wants to walk on far away and ride their bicycles, and we want to feel safe. And they said, it is not safe. We hear complaints every day that it is not safe that people do not feel safe because of construction related traffic and speeding. So it was kind of insulting to hear the comment today that this that we do not have a systematic issue. When I've heard from town representatives and the police department that it is a daily issue. Now, if the frequency of complaints has subsided, it is because we've lost confidence in the town to be responsive, retired of complaining when there's no action. We've got other things to do. But this, we are not upholding as a town, the commitment that we've made in writing on our website and our sustainability plans, right, to our children, to the environment. We're failing. Let's get this done. This is important. So when I, to be specific, why the timing is so important and what we can really do, when I talk to the town manager at the barbecue at the pool last summer, the response I got was, well, Joe, we hear that complaint every day. Unfortunately, when the town improved the base village, we locked in all of the development associated with that. All the construction associated with that was locked in without approval process. If you want to do something, you have to do something about things going forward. And so we're going forward now. We're looking forward. And I'm here to say that we need to do something so that we can walk on the roads. We can feel safe. And the police department doesn't get calls every day. And I think there's probably multiple ways to go about it. But I think I want a data-driven approach. We can collect data, apparently. We know it's two to three years. Let's ask why and I would really urge you all to engage Continuing engaging the town like you're doing today and Set a target a quantifiable measurable target That's consistent with the sustainability plan that's already been approved here That establishes a target for what percent of total town traffic should be construction and building landscape related. Fit into that total target, and people may say, well, we want 50% or 25% or whatever it may be, but engage the town, people that are of all of that are construction professionals and environmentalists so that we have a good cross section, engage the town, set a target, and then manage to that target. And there's tools we can use to quantitatively account for historical failures and unplanned maintenance so that we can look forward and build that into the targets. We can set construction standards and things like square footage, things that really smartly use data to go after the total quantity of construction related traffic, whether it's landscape work or civil work, or just the square footage of new homes. Because it's one thing to say, we want people to come in and be able to update their home if they want to, it's another thing to say that they need to be three times bigger. I'm not making a value statement about that, but if we look at the data, maybe it's the home size that's driving it. Maybe it's what we're doing with the lots. Right? So, work with the town, set that target, and then use data to inform plans and, you know, let's work towards achieving that target because right now this this is untenable and it's totally untenable for the police department to say sorry you just can't walk out your door and have your kids ride their bike in the town of Snowmass Village while at the same time putting on our public website that we are a leader in sustainability for the state of Colorado. Thank you Joseph. Anybody else? Hello Morgan, Pixel. So just a few comments. First just a clarification. And so I think when I came in to make the complaint on August 19th, I think was the date, it was actually not about the utility work. It was about the residential work. And I think what's even more frustrating is to see that there is somewhere between five and eight homes under construction that are probably all going to be listed for $12 million plus dollars and you look literally across the street from these construction sites and there are homes on sale for $12 million. So why are we allowing more construction to happen when we're talking about a crazy build site that's gonna take potentially a lot of work to build employee housing, how beautiful would it be if we could actually buy some of these lots on far away and turn it into workforce housing and make it into multiple town homes on a lot or a condo, whatever it might be, whatever we can make work at that site, I think that that would be really incredible, but we're not thinking of that. And that's really frustrating to me, just as like a side note. But I did a little bit of work because I don't feel like I can come to you and complain without having a little bit of a solution. So I did work across five different cities and towns. And it seems like permitting is definitely something we can do a better job of. Can we actually say X number of demo permits within a quarter or within a year? X number of interior remodels, general construction. If we want to alter traffic, we have to go after things that are actually larger in project and scope and limit that. So any time that there is a new build that's over 4,000 square feet, do we need to be building five of those, ten of those in a year, or should we be focusing on potentially telling one of those or permitting one of those in a year, and then the five to ten other, you know, permits that we normally give out would go towards the leak that happens in someone's home to make it livable, because that's 100% something that we normally give out would go towards the leak that happens in someone's home to make it livable because that's 100% something that we should make sure happens or should go towards the roof repair because that is a priority. So figuring out what to prioritize and why and I agree with Joseph I think that the comment of we have enough historical data to decide we've had X number of failures and we know that there are certain neighborhoods that are aging out quicker. So instead of saying, okay, well, all of this neighborhood is going to fail within a five-year period. Why not look ahead and say, well, this is going to happen five to ten years out. And so how can we start making changes now and thinking about the permitting process within that neighborhood, and then instead of leaving it up to the HWA, like my HWA is just me and my literal next door neighbor, the one I share a wall with. And so for our street, it would be really unfortunate to have five different HWA's approve something, and then you have five different construction projects happening on that same street, and it's a small street. Sorry, have a lot of notes. There is another kind of like downhill effect of some of this. We have over 50% of our building waste is currently, or our landfill is currently from building waste. And if we continue to make it so easy for our construction workers to do work here, they're going to continue to buy places to build spec homes and do whatever it might be. Instead, I think it would be really thoughtful to say, okay, well, if we're going to allow for X number of permits, we're also going to allow for some sort of policy about recycling construction waste or thinking about how do we mitigate what's going to happen in the landfill. Because if people aren't upset right now about construction, they're probably going to be pretty upset about having to pay a tax to expand our landfill because we've allowed all this construction to go on for so long. I think making construction companies sign a contract that says that they will uphold certain policies that we have in place and if they don't follow that, I have seen, you know, people don't respond to fees here. So you have to do a stop work order and people are going to respond to a stop work order. They might not like it, but they're going to pay attention and they're going to pay attention to the amount of construction vehicles on a street. And Mike, I so appreciate coming on to far away because it is like painful to drive every single day. And, but I mean, because you come one day, it's probably gonna be good for two or three days, but then the traffic increases again. And you have, and I stopped the other day and said, do you guys actually have a permit to be redirecting traffic? And they just said, we're just doing what we need to be doing right now. And it's unsafe. So I think, I guess the comment there is really putting in policies that allow people to actually follow through with the mitigation work that we're putting forth. Emergency permits again, really necessary, but we can probably decide how many emergency permits are necessary within a year. And if we need to have a special work session to say, hey, there's three more homes that experience to leak because of water main break, then for sure allow those things to happen. I don't think that we're trying to stop people from having live ability here. I think we're trying to stop the amount of construction that's happening unnecessarily. And that is actually driving out the workforce from being able to live in snowmass and work in Snowmass. I think that's pretty... oh and then there is a comment about the if somebody buys a home and wants to remodel. I see listings all the time and Aspen say we have a permit if somebody wants to do something with it. We can probably allow for X-member permits around that, around two. And I understand that Aspen has gotten incredibly restrictive and it has its pain points around it. And I'm sure it has burdened on town stuff because people aren't happy. But again, I think that people are going to be unhappy about even more increased taxes, more construction traffic, more problems. And then driving out the work force that allows them to really live here and enjoy this beautiful place. So hopefully that all made sense. That was a lot of notes. Thank you, Lauren. We did have a presentation from the landfill manager. I think it was maybe more than a year ago about what Picking Counties doing as far as recycling. Well, do we have that here? We're not today. No one talked about it. It's not to the extent that they do. Have you had any experience with that and you have any? You know, that was kind of getting underway when I left. I don't have a lot of experience with that other than to know, you know what? Take somebody to, it would take people to monitor. And there's also, there's a penalty for not doing it. And when I understand the penalty is just being paid, it's not, the price is not enough. You're just paying, yeah. Right, you're doing $50, $1,000 on what you care, right? An extra whatever. That's the problem. And why no, it's a problem. No. Trip generation. Trip generation. More trips. Yeah, more cycles. Yeah, that's true. to get more cycles right now. So it's not as impactful as we'd hoped. The construction recycling? Yeah, I can't speak to that. I just know that it's the, I don't know. We are, you guys asked a couple of weeks back to have a presentation from the landfill. And I know we're working on that right now, so I don't know if we get a date set. Yeah, but we're working on that. Yeah, I, be good. I think if we can get an update on. That's scheduled for the 16th. OK, next week. Yeah. Maybe we'll see. We'll get some more information about how that program's working. And if it's something snowmess Village needs to consider. And we'll learn a lot more about what's going on to landfill too. And I know it's a lot of things. I just want to say a question to some of the accuracy of this statement is made and I'm going to politely disagree with some of the statements. Just leave it at that if you don't mind. Okay. Anything else? Well, where are we going with this conversation? Sounds like we're going to provide some more information on the website. Okay. On community projects. It sounds like we're going to provide some more information on the website. Okay. On community projects. But beyond that, I don't think we're at a point to legislate anything. I'm not in favor of going down the road of limiting growth legislatively. I just think that's a nightmare. Sure. Something that we deal with occasionally on the public safety side is the people that have complained to the wrong people. People complain to an HOA. You are unique in the fact that you're the person that manages your HOA actually gets results. That's a very effective tool. But a lot of times by the time people find the right avenue to complain about noise or something, they've had it. And they're boiling over and they expect us to show up and wave magic wand and make everything okay. So making people more aware through HOAs that you might participate in, if there's an issue that could be related to an ordinance or something, they should call us. And we can look into it and try to mitigate it before it gets to the point where it's just unlivable for them. Because then it's virtually impossible for us to fix anyway, no matter what we do and if it's a first contact for the police department on some level like that we're very unlikely to write a ticket on a first defense yeah so just that little tidbit of information share that as you can no words people should contact you when they're aware that there's a problem. Or even if they're not aware, even if they don't know what the rules are and they want some clarification. We'd much rather answer the phone, explain construction noise, then you know have somebody call and say this has been going on every day for about six months and now I've had it. Yeah absolutely. Like I know our I don't know how many H2WAs do this, but the horse ran to JoA. They send out like a little like newsletter once a month that has lots of good, helpful information. So like something like that would be helpful also. Like if we do have a page that's really sort of more detailed and dedicated to what's going on with construction wise that they could put the link in there and people could feel more informed. I mean, I think a lot of it is that people don't know and that's what I get calls a lot from people. Well, who do I ask about this? And how do I get this done? So. OK. All right. Appreciate you guys all coming in. I think it's helpful to talk through some of this stuff, even if we don't make major progress. But information is power, so we'll just keep pushing it out there. Thanks, you guys. All right, thank you. Thank you so much. Okay, next item for discussion is going to be our boards and commissions and utilization procedure. We've got a survey to review. Can't you take in the lead? Certainly, but I mean this is really kind of an opportunity that you guys asked for to discuss efficiently and effectively work with your boards and commissions. And I know you're as a council, you're always looking to improve communication levels. And so we're looking for feedback from you guys. One of the questions or request you made not that long ago was to develop a survey of sorts. And Greg put that together, a draft for you guys to comment on. And again, this is really kind of, we're following your lead on how you want to make improvements or changes or otherwise knowing that, you know, in the near future also you'll be serving on boards and commissions as liaison as well. I thought the survey was good. I just question I think we should discuss whether or not we ask people to put their names on it. I mean, it's always, I don't know what you do about that. I think it should be. I'm of the commission. Optional. Yeah. I mean, we want to know which boarder commission they sit on because that's important. That's important, you know. But I think it's optional. I mean, I think at the end, if where it says, would you like to receive a fall from town council, if they say yes, then they need to buy their email. But the first question is your name. I believe it's open ended so they don't have to put it. Well I didn't quite understand what that opened ended. Yeah so like when you say optional right? Yeah. It's just I think that was just noting for us like it wouldn't say that on there. It would just be not be a mandatory question when you set up the surveys. Yeah, but they do need to provide it if they wanna have a follow-up conversation. Yeah, I got the surveys good. I think that'll be helpful. Yeah, Greg, I think nice job putting that together. I think it's, again, it's information. The more we are informed, the better decisions we can make. I think that the reason that we've got these boards and commissions is to help guide and steer us in our process here. So once we get to the point where we have council members sitting on those boards and commissions, I think that will even be a good idea. in our process here. So, you know, once we get to the point where we have council members sitting on those boards and commissions, I think that will even, you know, make that communication, shrink that communication gap even more. So, I think we're on the right path here. I have one comment about the application. I think it would be helpful for them to, on the line item where it says list experience and or education that qualifies you for this position other than having served on this commission before because many of them just say I've been on there for five years or whatever. And so I want to know what it is that they bring to the table and it could be from past experience you know current experience whatever but I think that could be helpful. Yeah maybe just other than sitting on this board. Yeah so Greg maybe we just include that in there. Or Megan. Other than that. Yeah. So it's like you just don't want to have 20, I think 10 years on this board, you want I continue to be active. Yeah. I have a degree in such and such. Or I, you know, this is what my day job is or whatever. Yeah. No, I think it, I think that would be really helpful. Because we do get a lot of that. Yep. But on the word for 20 years. Okay. Thanks. And sorry, bouncing back to the survey. I had one thought. I wondered if there was, towards the end, if there were any space to include something about other ways to potentially seek input or seek the way they give input to council, like if there were additional avenues for communicating with us that they might like. If they had some suggestions. Yes, they had a suggestion for another way as opposed to in a full-board presentation or having to come in front of Council. Perhaps there's another option out there. So like an open-ended question for their situation. But I was thinking open-ended. And I have, I marked this thing. I have a lot of comments. So, I mean, I kind of, I spend a little bit of time researching online and just seeing like other questions that people ask when they survey boards and commissions. missions. So in number, like for instance, the number four, where it says how clear are you about the roles and responsibilities? I feel like it should be more like do you feel the roles and responsibilities are clearly defined? And as a follow up, like, are there areas, like if someone says, no, not clear, like, you know, if maybe they answer a D or a knee, like, are there areas of your role that you feel are unclear or need further clarity? Like, I just, I feel like it could, we could ask a little bit more of that question. I don't know the answer Greg, but usually like if you do a survey like if someone answers one way, then they can have to follow with a different question. Yeah, I, this was conceptual meant to be conceptual. Yeah. I would have for a draft had all of that in there. So the open ended for the other type answers. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I just feel like if they say it's, you know, that they don't feel it's clearly defined like, you know, what needs like further clarity? Like what is it that's missing? And in five, it says how well do you feel the Board and Commission defines and communicates its goals? I feel like it should be how well defined are the goals and objectives of the Commission because the Commission is not a person, so it can't define itself. Sure, and that seems like the last comment where it's a matter of voice. Yes. I was trying to be consistent with the document. Yeah, no, no, no, I get it. And maybe that should come before, maybe what is now five, should come before question four. Should you talk about the board and not talk about how you relate to the board? And I think in number six, it's talking about resources and support for their duties. I think one of the things that I've heard before it has to do with the relationship with staff. So maybe we want to add something in about how would you characterize the board's relationship with staff? Are there areas that need strengthening or change? Because that is one of the common things that I hear. They don't feel like they're being listened to, they don't feel like there's action, so that I would be very curious about that. And I can follow up with you afterwards if you want more of like what I wrote down, but... And just on that one, I mean what's tough about that is, you know, just because Joseph was here, like the EAB, I mean, they don't have us. We don't have a dedicated staff. Or let me go back to the sob. The sob was in community development forever. And there wasn't like dedicated person towards it. I know that once we applied resources because the council said, hey, make things happen, we switched it and we started playing dollars towards it. So I wouldn't put it towards staff. I'd almost say, I guess I don't want to pin it on staff maybe if there's some other way to reframe that question. It's like are the resources there to get it done? And it's really to you guys. I know. I want more art. We want more whatever the case might be. But I think that there are certain boards that are connected to certain staff members in the town where people are very frustrated with those staff members. But so let me pick on poster for a second, switch gears for a second. I mean, let's just say there's a poster member that's really frustrated because we have too many trails or not enough trails or whatever. That one, what I'm afraid of is you're gonna get that one piece of feedback and you, in your opinion, I don't know what you're gonna do with that. I mean, as a council, because the feedback should be to you guys. To, and say, oh yeah, the board is not being listened to or I'm not being listened to. I just ask you to think about it that way a little bit because if the poster board says we really need to emphasize trails more than parks or parks more than trails or the rodeo more than whatever and that's not happening then that's an issue. But if somebody is frustrated because the community garden's not getting more plots, I just want you to be cognizant of that kind of feedback. It's tough. When you're sitting there as a staff, and there's 15 people in the poster, if that's an example to follow through on that, or I can go through all the board. It's tough. I understand what you're saying, but when I think about it, I'm like, okay, if there's a one-off comment, but if there's 15 people on poster, in 10 of them right back, like flashing lights, this is a big problem, then it's something we know that needs to be looked at. That's all I'm saying. I mean, I only know what people tell me or if I observe something myself. And so sometimes you don't know what you don't know. Sure. So I don't know. I mean, I'm not trying to pinpoint anyone, but I think everyone's capable of like dealing with one-off comments versus like a consensus among the group. And I'm just trying to understand if there's common themes here that we need to pay attention to. And as we go to sit on these boards and commissions, it's helpful to know like watching the dynamics. Like, what is it that the survey said that we sort of should be paying attention to when we go to these meetings? And is that really really what's happening or is it that person's perception of what's happening? Sure. And that's I understand and as long as our goal just so you know when we're sitting there in those boards of commission meetings is what your advice whatever board and commission were at is is a recommendation to the council. And our job as staff is to make sure those recommendations get to you guys. And whether you got one today for an extra position, it's not in the budget. If you guys change tune or whatever, that's your drug to put that in the budget. That's our goal as staff is to make sure we're kind of coalescing. And if it can can be done certainly We do it and otherwise we ship on to you guys for action And so that's and I hear you and we can put that question and I just want to make sure that when we're what what What we're aiming for is to make sure that advice whether it's the FAB whether it's whoever gets to you all That's that's what we're aiming for mostly I mean these are just my opinions. I mean I just want to make sure that we're getting the most information we can gather you know as we go. A number seven where it talks about how satisfied you are with the frequency and scheduling of the board meetings. I mean I don't know if we're going to keep that question or have something like is the expected time commitment clearly communicated? Because that's one thing that I think is most important. It's just like the overall time commitment to that board. So that was my only thought there. And under communication and collaboration, I think it would be helpful to, I mean, it does say, like, how would you rate the level of communication and collaboration. Like I want to, I think I want to know, like, how people feel about the culture of the board or how inclusive do you feel the board's decision making processes. Because I think there are some people who are really not comfortable speaking up because maybe there's someone that's overbearing or it's just not, doesn't feel collaborative enough. So I don't know if it's a follow-up question to that. If someone rates collaboration low, like better getting at that. I mean, look at number 13. Yes, yes, but also to that, like how inclusive do you feel that decision making processes? Like are you hesitant to raise a difference of opinion? Like I just want to make, because I think that there has been that problem before where people don't feel comfortable because maybe the chair is not good at making people feel comfortable. I don't know. I just I mean I hear what you're saying. I think these two questions sort of get it. No, but it's more of like what I was saying to Greg before like if a person answers poor or very poor like maybe just delving a little bit deeper. Is that they are uncomfortable raising something because they feel like it's gonna be maybe there should be a question. It should be an opportunity on each of deeper is that they are uncomfortable raising something because they feel like it's going to be minor. It should be an opportunity on each of these if somebody wants to add a comment. Well there is, it's open-ended, like number 14 is open-ended. No, no, no, but on every one of these you have like ABCDE and then comment. Yeah, and I apologize, I should have communicated that with you, Clint. This was not meant to be a... It's a draft. It's a draft. It's a... I would have had a more... Yeah. You'd say plus word. I mean, just that way we can get some feedback. If somebody wants to say, you know, poor and this is why I said it, you know, they give them a option to write it in, right? So that would be your intent is to add those portions to it. So to this point, I think we can probably get that information by adding a comment field. Correct. Yeah. That's it. I mean, I think it'll be helpful just to like get this information and just have a different way of communicating with the boards and commissions that we've done before. So that was it. Oh, I mean it's a good survey. Yeah, I appreciate it. So that's five of us who get 15 or 20 comments right? Yeah, different opinions. Yeah. How quickly do you as well? I think it would be good to get it out before we bring in new people for the new boards of commissions. So we have some give us some time to digest it before then. So let's get it out soon. Yeah. When are we appointing positions? November. December. We actually do the resolution, almost the last meeting of December. But you guys will see the applications as soon as November 18 after the election. And you'll have two or three meetings to discuss. And maybe do interviews. No, I think we should get it out soon. So we should get it out, yeah, before the election. And we can take these comments as long as you're comfortable. We can take these, get it pretty close, and get it out with the open ended. Yeah. Great. Okay, good. Can I just add, I'm glad you brought up, the letter we got about the sustainability coordinator. It would be good to have, you know, the AB come in and present to us why and explain to us why they think it's important. And I'd like to hear from, you know, you and staff as to maybe we're doing all these things already in different, not, huh? Okay, but I think it's worth hearing from them. I mean, they are for to write a letter and they feel strongly about it. We should get them in here soon. Yeah, I mean, it's always challenging to add a staffing position, but if it's if there's a gap there and we need to address it, then we should do it. I mean, they're a point that we, you know, we're creeping up on our 2030 goal. We need to, we need to start making some strides. I don't know the best way to get there. And maybe it's a consultant, it's not a staff person, but so yeah, maybe we's a consultant, it's not a staff person, but So yeah, maybe we start with a maybe the eAB committee talked to us I'm sure Kaur would love to provide us He gave us a consulting service. I spoke for $800,000. What's it? He gave us a quote for $800,000 I'm not kidding. I'm trying to hear. $800,000 was their quote. To do this? Yes. That's close, right? I'm not exaggerating the number. I wish you were. I don't think I'm exaggerating the number. It's in that range. So we do think about it. We do our evaluating. Yes, we can have happy to get him in front of you. And I'm going to guess that you don't want them to talk to the Finance Advisory Board as well and all those kinds of things. And we can certainly start that discussion. I think it just showed we knew what was coming because we were at the meeting. And we got the letter today and we wanted to get in your hands. Yeah, but we should hear from them personally. Maybe at a work session. Maybe next week. I know next week's agenda is light. If that goes to the next. I think it goes, we're just talking, but we want to be responsive to our. Yeah. So let's see if they're available. Join us next work session. Well, would you mind the next meeting? I think next meetings we were looking at today. It's relatively light if we can get them to show. I don't know if we can, but if you don't care the format of the meeting, let us see how quickly we can get it in. Good with me. OK, any reports? I don't know if anybody saw the article. I think it was today's paper about CORE. I was on the front page today or yesterday, because they were presenting to the Aspen Council about terminating the interdisciplinary, intergovernmental agreement. I think it's pretty informative of the transformation of core. It's that there will be some reader and understand what's going on. Yeah, it's going to be a different organization. Yeah. I just noticed on the town website, under Election, and how to register. There's some broken links there. So if you can just take a look at that and make sure it's directing people to. Some of it takes you to pick and vote and some of it says whoops. I just had a thought when I was looking also at the. I get any training needed for boards and commissions, but also that I was thinking about after the election. I think it would be a good thing to think about doing some training for the new council or all of us doing a training together. And I know there's probably plenty of consultants that are out there that we could talk to, but like when I was on school board and I know various other organizations have training about how to just be efficient with your work and how to, you know, just sort of how the whole process should and can work so that everybody's getting their voice heard and we're all just working together effectively. Well, Cog actually created an elected officials handbook that has these types of things that works through things and John Sadden who works who's the director of Coghe also does this type of thing where he comes and works. I think it could be and so but we could look at that as like a starting point. I mean I love the goal setting and that's important and I think that's really great working together. I also think just the nuts and bolts of how you do your job could be. Is that something we have to do in the open because the open meeting policy we can't ever retreat with a consultant, right? Oh, you can. I mean, you don't have to do in this room, but I mean if the public showed up they had to be allowed to sit. Yeah, listen, but you can do it anywhere you'd like. Yeah. I mean, we've done that in the past. I mean, John Stavney's one, CML's one, Circe's one, there's a dozen consultants. There's lots of people to do this. If it's something to council. That's the part of it. Good idea. Yeah, I think that could be. We should probably get on the calendar now instead of waiting until the new council. Right. So we can do something in November or something in on. Yeah, and maybe we could just see some options for what type of consultant, what type of training they might do. That sort of thing. Clint, can you take that out to the back to us? You're thinking like a couple hours or one day, do you have a decarage? Is there, I don't know. A day or less, I would say between a couple and a half a day. Half a day, half a day. Half a day. Expert coming in nuts and bolts, hey, here's how a board works, here's the things you need to think about, here's dynamics, you need to consider all that kind of stuff. And I mean, because I know you went over with us just an overview of what you can talk about, what you can, what how many people can talk together, that sort of stuff. So I feel like that's pretty cut and dried, but I think something more along the lines of, how can you be the most efficient council as possible and you know what of what of the experts say is the way that you you know do the work of the people I mean that's that's sort of our goal right so that to me would be what I'd like to I use are you getting the feeling like we're not being efficient or you're? No, but I know that it we've had conversations about, you know, what it feels like when you're in the minority of a decision or stuck in the middle or stuck in the middle. And just any of those things like what is the what is our game plan? And if everybody's on the same page, like that's gonna happen sometimes. And then what do we do? And how do we make that the best way possible? And can we all move forward together when that's the case? And all of those things, like that to me seems like could be good work. Okay. those things like that to me seems like could be good work. Okay. Cliffs feverishly typing. And if you want it sooner, I mean, the 18th is the first meeting after the election, is that something like that? I mean, we could set it early Decemberish. I mean, as soon as that, so I mean, I had a good idea because there will be at least one new person here To get that up front. Yeah, December second. Well, I think we let's work on dates But if we aim for early December and I can get I mean like I said there's dozens of folks that do this and No, that's what we could do it off. We can do it whenever. Yeah, I mean, it's just going to be a date for you guys going to do that. So. Good. But yeah, December 9 might be the time to do it. We've just got a GID meeting scheduled. All right, anything else? And I have a question. What would it take to get story polls up for the draw site before the election? Or something? I know story polls probably don't come in that height, but something similar. I know in the chapel years ago they couldn't do story polls, but they put up like a, I think a crane or something to indicate the height just to give people some idea of what they're, what we're talking about. I mean, I would say we normally would do that for like the project when it comes back through like a preliminary plan. It's not uncommon. We've done that for everything. What would it take to construction crew to answer your question? I mean, we would have to- Time frame discussions. Yeah, it would take consensus on you guys that that's something that's important for the- for it. I'd have to run it by Jeff. I mean, honestly, my brain's going about 15 different spots. Yeah, it would take consensus on you guys that that's something that's important for it. I had to run it by Jeff. I mean, honestly, my brain's going about 15 different spots because that's spending money to, but it's then it's objective information that's not one way, I'd have to think about it. But I mean, the answer to it would be a construction crew, I mean, because it would be that dirt is probably 20, I don't know, I'll make it up, a 10 feet higher than it would be, and then we have to figure out where the pole would top out from the current elevation, knowing the elevation is going down, and it could be done if that's what the council said, do you, as Haliban, answer your question. I mean, I'm just thinking through whether that would be something useful during this conversation space that I feel like we're now pretty regularly in about that topic with it on the ballot for consideration. And you know this, the ballot question for November is for spending. It's so, and I know, as the council you all said, the up to language of what not in the ballot question, units, and so that land use process, the voters can say yes spend $86 million or you have authored up to that amount and then the council and the planning commission and everybody else could say no we want to enhance. The heights still doesn't work for that. So I mean that land you, I guess I'm just, and I'm just blabbing because I don't know the answer but that's why I'm asking. I mean it'd be the question for the voters is the spending not the height because the next council and the next planning commission are gonna set the height So I guess I've gotten that question a couple times and it came in a letter in one of the comments. I mean I think Weeks so as a my answer would be you know This is what the current council thinks it might look like and there are pictures of that But that could change and so I I don't feel like putting up a story pole at this point is I think that seems like you are voting then on do you want this tall of a building and that's not what the question is and so And that comes later, you know that. And so, and that comes later. You know, that will be a question once the new council is looking at that. And so then it's appropriate. But I think for now, it's like, do you basically do you want housing there? And can we spend this money? Yeah, I agree. Okay. I mean, I think project magnitude is important, but I do understand what you're saying. Yeah, and I think there'll be a time for that. We saw story polls when the center project first came through. In rodeo. When we were doing the houses. Yeah, for rodeo. Or not rodeo for coffee places. I mean coffee places. Coffee places, yeah. Yeah. Which was helpful. Like when we went down and did this site and then they had the story polls and just helped to like put it on to perspective. It's tough because we're seeing an image. You know, we've put out an image now. But it's hard to kind of understand what that means in location. I think that's the purpose of story polls. But I understand if, you know, that's not consensus. Well, that's not purpose of story polls, but I understand if that's not consensus. Well, that's not what I'm voting on. I mean, if that were what we were voting on, I think that would be important, but we're not. I mean, that'll come along. I think it'd be informative and helpful, but I understand. Yeah. Okay. Anything else? Yeah. I went to Cog. I actually went over there to Selvathorn. So that was good. It was nice to see people. They are their energy program, which has this warehouse that's basically in gypsum. They're putting, they're gonna put this like tiny house on there that is a registered performance institute center where they can actually train people that work for COG and other entities that wanna bring people there to certify them like it takes like 18 months on how to do all these energy type things that they do through COG. So that's really, was interesting. And then they talked about the charging and infrastructure grant update. So this is the grant that includes everybody up here as well. So it's an $18 million grant. It was submitted on August 28th. It will be 153 charging ports and 21 municipalities across seven regions with a mix of two and three level fast chargers. So for Highway 82, the Brush Creek Park and Ride, there'll be four level two and two fast chargers in town park, and then there's 29 at the Brush Creek Park and Ride. So there was this five mile thing from 82, so there was only so many places in Snowmass that it could go But you know, I think it's it's really exciting to have that grant and have all those chargers come in Do they get the grant or asking? So they're asking for the grant. It was submitted August 28th and So that was good. I have Raffta on Thursday, Sister Cities on Thursday. On Sunday, I went to the main event, which was at the rodeo. And it was just really nice to see an event other than the rodeo at the rodeo, which it was called the main event. So they had all these different exhibitions, farm collaborative was also there. So they had all these different exhibitions, farm collaborative was also there. So they had different exhibitions with horses, they had a blue grass band, they had lots of kid friendly things like face painting, and then they also had people that had booths, you could buy local products, they had some animals. It was, I don't know, I just thought it was a really nice event. It was very family-friendly and I think a lot of people that have kids like appreciated that type of an event. But you know it's something when we talked about redoing the rodeo and being able to use it for other things besides the rodeo. It was just nice to see what the potential was. And I don't know, I thought it was great. Jamie Wall, one of our event producers found that group and brought them in and that's great. She saw the vision and got it in. Yeah, I just thought it was, it was just nice to see what the potential could be and obviously, you know, they learn from it and there's ways to grow it but I thought it was a really nice like event for Snowmass and I saw a lot of local people there which was nice. So that was it. Yeah I think we'll continue to entertain some new opportunities. I'd be out of call from a guy who's interested in having the Trouble Riders Association in event September, October. So you know, who knows? Yeah, because Virginia was also saying that they can move that stage thing that's up at them all, that thing they put in the summer to the rodeo and they can have concerts there. Like big concerts, not this fall, but hopefully for the next fall. Once we get a new stage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yes. But I'm just saying. Fanny Hill fits 4,000. That rodeo fits 2,000. So it would be a smaller concert actually. But I just think it's nice that we're exploring the options because that sort of was the goal and redoing it. So. Okay. anything else? All right, Roger, make it. All right. See you. I'm going to go home and watch two people fight on television.