Thank you. Good afternoon. It is now 4 p.m. And I call to order the workshop of the Appalachial of the City Commission. Today is Tuesday, December 3, 2024. If you would please send for the invocation and pleasure of allegiance. Gracious Father, we come before you to say thank you. We thank you for who you are. We thank you for your grace, your mercy. We thank you for your kindness. Lord, we ask that you will grant wisdom, knowledge, understanding. God give us the grace and the guidance to do the will of your people, but most importantly, to do your will, God. And we thank you in advance in your son, Jesus name we pray, amen. Amen. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to public for which it stands one nation under God indivisible. So today we are here in this workshop to discuss elements of the African-American Museum. For the record, there are no public members present. So we will turn this part of the agenda over to Mr. Harmon. There it is. Okay. Good afternoon, commissioners and staff. Thank you for having us again. My name is Brett Hammond with the Hammond and the Fanger Barca Tax. We come before you today to discuss brick colors for the museum. The reason it becomes important is obviously the different colors of brick. There's a cost affecting with those various things. We wanted to have that, so we wanted to have it specified in the documents so that when you get your base bid, there's no question, you know, if I come back and say we need a change order for a different sound brick. With it today, we're going to show you different colored options. Banding, when we first, back when we did the original concepts for the museum, we were asked to try to match the brick on the museum elevations. That's not difficult, that brick is painted. So it would only be a matter of any color, any brick, and in painting over top of it. But since we moved in sort of the more modern style building, there was discussion about the possibility of going with different color bricks to kind of move it to a more modern approach since we're doing a takeoff from that. Next slide please Travis. This is what you're going to see today. We have a couple of bricks that we don't actually have representational samples of. We try to get our baths to try to get manufacturers to send them. They are somewhat reticent to do it. At times, obviously, there's a cost associated with it for the one time term. But anyway, we're going to talk about blue iron spot, brown brick, and orange brick, and sort of a silver colored brick going on next slide. These are just some of the options. This is assuming we use the blue iron spot. And the blue iron spot, if you've ever been to Tallahassee and you've been to the City Hall of Tallahassee, those are blue iron spot brick on that city hall to give you an idea of the color. It's a much darker, richer color than you typically see in red brick. It is a more expensive brick. There's no doubt about it. But it gives you that blue. These colors are representational. We pull them off of the website for all the brick to try to show you as close as possible in the elevations of what the brick are. And then we see the actual idea of doing banding in a different color. We do show banding in the early images of that. So we thought we'd try to break the color barriers up with the blue spot and then banding. So next slide please. This gives you a closer view as you are in, if you are going to be entering the front entrance of the actual physical museum. And again, that is the blue iron spot. I apologize we don't have a physical sample for you to touch and feel. I mean, I honestly believe samples are incredibly important for people to physically see that. But we had trouble getting the manufacturer to send that. So that was the blue iron spot using with a lighter brick as a banding inside a silver or something in it for that. But the whole point today is that hopefully to narrow down and have you all say we like this view. Because what we'd like to do is just finish up the drawing and think I'm ready and put them on the street to help you bid it so we can get the building under construction for you. The idea. Next slide. Please. instruction for you. Get the idea. Next slide. This is using a brown brick, which is a little bit different. Again, we don't actually have a specific color for this one using a red brick band. But we do have some brown or brick to show you. Again, part of it is trying to get the computer to match the actual sample colors, too. So we got as close as we can get. But again, there's some difficulty in trying to get the computer to match the actual sample colors too. So we got it as close as we can get. But again, there's some difficulty in trying to match those. Next slide please. This of course is again using a brown brick with a red banding throughout, let you're entering the front door. Next slide please. This Miss Val asked for a green brick. Now again, the only green brick we could find most of you have probably seen them. They are glazed brick. And they are an expensive brick. But we did look to see if we could find a glazed brick for you to kind of give you some sort of a representation. We used it as a banding. It gets really, really loud if you try to use it as a field. So what we try to do is do sort of an orange brick with a green glazed banding that also helps in trying to cut down the cost and try to simplify your cost. But I don't know where the green kind of came from. To my knowledge, I haven't seen anything green on the Family Life Center. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means in my personal experience, I haven't seen it. But Ms. Val did ask us if we could find a green brick of them for it. So we tried that. Next slide, please. Again, this is using sort of the orange brick, which would be this color brick here with a green blade in it to give you that differential and show you that. Next slide, please, Travis. This is using a light silver gray, using kind of the white brick with a red banding in it. Again, we've got a white field. I personally think that in this particular instance, the brick should be different in a different color so we don't have so much white. You know, I don't want to have the white stucker. I personally would not like to have the white stucker and the white brick. I think it's too much white and I think you kind of lose the texture of the brick. It would be incredibly subtle and kind of nuanced, but again, we wanted to show various color options and give you a chance to make that determination. Next slide, please. Again, that would be doing this. And so you see there's very little differential between it. Now, there is a lot and I've played back and two. Architecture, you don't have to be incredibly bold for people to get the idea. And so again, if you did use the white brick, I'm not saying it would just be a subtle differential, but from a distance, it's all the whole building's going to look white. When you get up on it, you obviously would see that differential and it would be sort of a nuanced understanding. No, no, no, no. We're only dealing with the actual physical building itself, Miss Grove. And that's all we're not changing anything on the Holy Family life, don't we? I'm not the same thing. I do. I do. I do. I personally do. But I wanted to show it to you and give you the option. I think it's because we have the white stucco, our front, or it could be beige. We could match. We could actually match the Holy Family color, which is kind of a tope color. If we need to, right now we're just showing it as a white color. But I know from the more modern style, I know what Ruffin was looking for, and Ruffin was looking for that building to be a white sort of a stucco panel. And that's what we currently show it at. That's why I think the brick should probably be something that stands out. And then the brick plays back both the texture of the white stucco plays back to the family life building and the brick. And maybe not the same color, but the fact that you have brick plays back too. And you'll notice we even have the same symbol at the door that occurs at the family life building where we have the brick diamond put in at that location. Next slide please, Travis. And that was it. So I did not know it. You've seen these. I want to give you you guys a chance and Travis had even half, you know, again, I'm here to answer questions, show you the brick we have. I would like to kind of lock in on one of the pallets so that as we go forward we can specify that physically in the drawings and move these drawings so we can get it on the street, get a price for you and give you an opportunity to start building the building. Was there an option that you all, look, you have questions to ask of, or would you go back it back through it go back through them again? Well I have a question regarding the the cost and I know you can't give me exact but you stated that the blue iron is expensive it's most expensive. It's in relationship it's a higher cost brick than a simpler red brick. Obviously like anything the more they're moving the more the price goes down. In relationship, it's a higher cost brick than a simpler red brick. Obviously, like anything, the more they're moving, the more the price goes down. The answer is not, it's not extraordinary expensive. It's less expensive than the green-lazed brick. I do know that. But it does cost a little more. And one of the worst things in my experience, just my personal experience. One of the worst things we can have is have your building bid priced out. And the first thing you can't track it is, I didn't price that. I want to change order for the different color brick. So I'd like to go and specify the brick color that you all want and then go ahead and run it. And again, it doesn't mean it has to be resolved. I mean, even if we price it, I personally would allow the price, a higher price brick and back it down and give you a credit that have to come to you on Bended Knee and say, we need more money. That's just you know, clients in my experience, my professional experience, clients hate that. And as I do I, we pride ourselves in trying to minimize change orders and cost to a client on a particularly on hard bid. I don't see this as a construction management project. I see this we've got bid documents together to bid to broadside. They have contract. It's not big enough to put a construction manager in firm on. Personally, I don't think. All right, so I have a question for my colleagues. You made the comment that right now the body of the building is a white stuck up. That's what you're basing it on. Are you all okay with that or did you want to go with a color that is more compatible to the Holy Family? That the route would want to take. I'm a fan of continuing with the majority of the building being the white stucco just because it helps tie it in and I know that the goal was not to make it look like a baby Holy Family but still on the same group. Yeah, that looks more normal. Mm-hmm. That was part of the idea as I understood it when it was selected, was it kind of make a break? Excuse me, I'm sorry. Was it kind of make a break from the Holy Family? It's still the Holy Family is a light building. I mean, the actual, it's just not white. And I know what Ruffin was trying to do at the time. Let's try to break, and go in a more modern direction, which is typically white. Doesn't mean we can't tone it down. And I'm sure all of you have probably renovated your own homes or worked or painted. You'll notice that white is not just white. You know, there's a whole serious variations of white. Some have topin' them, some have graze in them. If you go anywhere and look at the samples, it's amazing, you know, even though somebody might say that the Holy Family is, I don't believe it's lighter, it's not a white, but we could even go to a white that's got a little more brown into it, and it even still would be called white, but again at the same time I don't I don't see the building as being a true white. I see it as being sort of an off-color or an off white Okay, try to see can you go back to 1.1 the first page for Okay, so that is the the blue iron that's the blue iron spot with a gray or a silver banding in it, yes ma'am. And I say it, and if you're for reference, if you've ever been to the city of all of Tallahassee, those are blue iron spots. They're sort of for a dark, almost a blue, almost kind of a purple color. They're beautiful brick, and they're beautiful take-off of a brick. Quite different. And it would be a dramatic contrast between the body of the building. And I personally believe that we should have a contrast. How much of a contrast that would be up to you all to tell us. But that was our thinking is that's a very modern sort of style brick for a modern building. So that's why we selected that. I do too. Can you go to the green sense valve just entered? That was there a reason why you wanted to look at a green? Was the reason. I don't either. Yes, man. The reason we and we do have planters now the planters will come out as an ad alternate. They're not really, and here's why the planters in the plaza, please understand me. You're building the building to the grant requirements, and it doesn't include the plaza. Doesn't mean it can't be done if there's money left over. So what we want to do, we want to include the planters, and here's why. And if you'll, Travis, will you kick to what you can see along the top, along the canopy? You see those openings? There's scoppers for the roof. We want to include the planters. We want the plaza to be the adult. We want to include the planters. We want the plaza to be the adult. We want to include the planters because they can't anymore. It's so flat. Ruffin had physically done an internal piping system and he'd used for lack of a better word. It's what you see a lot of times for bus shelters at high school. It wasn't a nice looking streamlined. I mean, again, he was trying to get the concept out there and they had internal gutters, or internal downspouts in the columns. But the problem is it just dumps the water out on a flat spot. I don't want to flood the greenway area. I wanted it to be able to spill into a physical planter and try to retain it in some degrees that we're not just small. Now the plaza will have to be treated as an add-all. We'll have the connection to the only family building and the building and the planters as part of the base bed. But the plaza would be add-all and if the money left over additional money that can be spent for the plaza, we would do that, but I want to contain it because the grant is fairly specific about the building and the connection and The parking that you have to have for the building and then we want to give you also We're gonna go ahead and detail the the plaza out So that there's enough detail in it that if it doesn't get built in this go round that you guys can still if you have Opportunities for another grant or something to do the plaza, you can go ahead and get that accomplished. But I think the planters are integral because of the roof water spillways. So that was the lighter brick with a red brick. And of course, we tied the red brick to tie back to the red painted brick on the family, holy family life. Only one thing. You say you're not a fan? The only one that really caught my eye was the blue iron. The blue iron spot is a beautiful brick. I watched it. It's a little black. Well, it looks darker here because we tried to match the color. But no, the blue iron spot is almost... What? No, no, no. The blue iron spot is really almost... I hate to say garnet because that's kind of a wash, but it's, gosh, I wish I had a photograph. It's gonna be, it'll fall out a little closer to the range of that, yes. The bluer, yeah, it's the bluer. Now, it's not, it's got a little more purple to it. It's a beautiful, beautiful brick. And if it is a beautiful brick, and it's a, you know, use it for a modern building, it's a beautiful brick and it's a, you know, use it for a modern building. It's a, it's a beautiful brick, you know. I think it's going to, I think it's going to come in more of a, see the kind of complex blue sort of range, if and if it would help, we can go down in City Hall and take a picture of it and send it to Brea and have her distributed to you, but it is a beautiful brick. And then if you did the banding to tie back like the red brick banding in a plaza or a planters or the physical accents that would tie back to the Holy Family life building. I mean that was our thinking at this time. Oh, there you go. Yeah, that was building that too. Yeah, if you look, if you look to the right there, that is the blue iron spot under the under the oak tree, right there under the oak. It is a deep, sort of a rich blue reddish color. I wish they would have sent it. And those are out front where the seating was at. So it looks like a car. Yeah, back, yeah. Where the planters out here also, you can see it over to the right, and then the ball right here, that is the blue iron spot. It's a, it's a, well, I have learned over time, color various from different person to person, particularly my wife. We get this argument all the time. Yeah. Like the dark. Uh-huh. Or the, or the browns, either of those are good, you know? This is, yeah, this This is kind of different. By that one. That's the iron spot with a silver banding. All right keep going. Travis, we give us take us to the take us to the other one. There's there's the that was sort of the brown the brown break here with a red accent van. That's the brown the red accent van with what we're trying to accomplish there again it's not quite the same color but it's what what about that with the blue iron brown brown with a blue banding We didn't do it. We didn't do anything. I mean I just had that yeah, yeah because what tell has seen Well that city hall look the brick and what I'm looking at is not the same Because this is This is what I... Yeah. And that's not a reddish color. It's more of a dark gray with blue color. Yeah. I don't know, but we need to make a... They didn't send a sample. They sent these samples, but they didn't send that sample. We tried last week to get them, but because of the holiday, they didn't get it shipped in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. seeing them in contrast like that. I mean, I can see that that kind of reddish brick and then the blue iron spot kind of seemed like they had different undertones, different color families. So I would probably not wanna do a red with the blue iron spot. Probably do like the light gray. Like a gray banding? Yeah, the gray banding. Just so ironic because I came into this meeting with that being my least favorite option. And now it is kind of my favorite option now. That was the idea when we looked at it. It was to get something to just tie back to give you some sort of a link back. But again, one of the things that was discussed was kind of a total breakaway and go to a new modern look and breaking away a little bit from the only family when we selected the modern view. I'm not saying at the time and Ruffin's view that Ruffin put forward had the red brick on that aspect of the building specifically to tie back to that old building. So can we select an option one and an option two. So at least that'll be. By all means. Absolutely. If you would let me know, and we can, we can even, if you want us to come back again, we'll be happy to do so. Or meet with you in the V. I know we can't, I know we can't, and again, if you tell us, if you want to push it off to the next meeting, or meet with you independently, so we don't violate sunshine. I understand the sunshine rules that you are based with too. So we could happily get them to you and force the manufacturers. Again, part of it was they didn't send them, and then it was the holiday, and they may still be coming too. So we can pick an option one and an option to contingent upon receiving the actual color. Color? That would save some time. Okay. Okay. Okay with that. Is everyone okay with that? Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'll back it up. Yeah, that was that was the iron. Yeah, the blue iron spot. Out of the blue. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's that? I would think that would be a color choice. Okay. So that's the blue iron spot. Got with the light color banding. One point two. One point two. And this, you want this option one? Yeah. We would change that. It was, and we would match, we would match whatever the banding is. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you like the red cap on top of the planter? Yeah. I thought that was what we were doing. That's fine. We can do that. I mean, you've got, you know, you've got that goingter. Yeah, I thought that was what we were doing. That's fine. We can do that. I mean, you've got that going on. We can certainly do that. I have no problem doing that. And I would give you a stop right away on the spot. Why do you think that would be good? So are we the consensus is to go with 1.1. The look option 1, 1.1. the the consensus is to go with one point one the look option one point one okay okay okay we need to get on with it. I'll go to if I have to I'll go to South Georgia brick and brick and get it or Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah take this option one and let me option two and that's so I find option two what you prefer to see as option two that is kind of the brown a darker brown it's just darker brown now very balanced with holy go back one Travis please the the with the caveat I mean that's the brown that is the brown those are the two bricks right there and that would be the banding okay that's a little bit lighter than the actual image but that's the idea behind it. Any other comments or questions regarding the brick. That was that was not the light grain and we have the the okay so that's the light gray with the those two right there in that chair. And my only concern with this one with regard to the white is that you wind up with so much light color. And then if you decide to change that my problem is right now for the first few years it might be fine if you decided to change the color scheme on Holy Family. And then all of a sudden, change the color scheme here, does the white brick really stand out or step away from it or those types of things? That's why I like to see the contrast of the brick work. I like to see it be a different color, not necessarily a painted color, but I like to see it be a different color, not necessarily a painted color, but I like to see it stand the fence and be the way if you change the field of the rest of the building that brick remains untouched, but it's still there. It gives that. For me, you know, with your building, I spent a lifetime doing this, but it's your building, so we will do what you want us to do. That's the consensus. We had options for option one was. Round with the red with the red banding option one has a caveat of seeing the break. Yes. Yes. and the option one has a caveat of seeing the break. Yes, yes. And we'll try to get the two brick manufacturers in town to get sample board force to and make sure the manufacturer try to skirt the manufacturers. What I would like to do is if we can get it. And again, I don't know that I like to postpone to another month, but again, if that's what you all wish, we will do it. It may become over in me with you individually somehow, so we're not impacting the sunshine law. Can get it to Brie. And she can get it to Brie and let Brie. She can just reach out to you one over there. Yeah, there you go. There you go, there you go. And in that way, you know, rather than a lose, I prefer not to push out another month. I'd like to try to get it resolved with a camo for Christmas here. And I know we got a very short window. Just because it's full. Uh-huh. That's special. Yeah. Is that fair? That's fair. I don't know if that's fair. Part of our issue is to try to get it, get colors projected into the computer and try to get them as close as we possibly can. I mean, there's a technology issue going on too. So with that, that's why I like to have the, it's always nice to touch stuff. It really is. The color board, you saw the color board the last time, those are the interior colors of the museum, the tile patterns and those types of things that we didn't bring some of the other stuff but those are, it's always nice to have that, you know, be able to touch stuff. I think we have what you need. Thank you very much for your time. Any other questions or comments? Brett at this point. If not, may I have a motion to adjourn this workshop? I so have a motion by Commissioner Ellie and a second by Commissioner Grove. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? meeting adjourned.