All right, good evening everybody. It is approximately 530 on the evening of January 22nd, 2025. We are here for an application for a conditional use for the best street, the best street of St. Mark's Church, BA 24-018C, which is a request for modification of an existing religious facility conditional use. Mr. Welcome. Good evening. Saying on behalf of the petitioner, St. Marsle Piscol Church. Good. It's your case. Yes, thank you very much. If I just may make some brief comments, you're going to hear from three witnesses tonight. The proposal, as you noted, is for a demolition and rebuilding of the parish hall for St. Mark's Episcopal Church. The demolition is kind of a misnomer, right? It's a renovation of sorts, but they are taking the building down and replacing it. Yes? Okay. Okay. So we're going to go into that. We're going to have three witnesses. The first two witnesses are going to be building committee members, parishioners. They'll describe to you first will be Dr. Richard Roca who is the chair of the committee. He will give you, explain to you who they are and what the purpose of this project is. The next gentleman will be John McBeth. He's also on the building committee, Mr. McBeth. We'll be going into the little bit of the particulars of the architecture and what modifications that they may. And finally, you'll hear from Dan Sweeney from Good Shick Little and Weber, who is a civil engineer and will be going through the criteria for the conditional use. We also have the architect and traffic engineer available for questions if the hearing examiner would like and with that We'd like to call our first witness Richard Roca Dr. Roca if you would take the stand Thank you All right, sir, I need to swear you in Thank you. I saw him is. I need to swear you in. Thank you. I solemnly swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury that the response is given in statements made to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I do. Thank you. Please state your name and business address for the record. Richard Roca. And I guess the business address would be the address of the church. Sure. 12- I guess the business address would be the address of the church. Sure. 12. 1, 2, Okay, and as Mr. O said, my purpose here is to give you the background prior to hearing about the building itself. The first record of a congregation called itself... Did I miss him being sworn in? Yeah, I missed him. Oh, you did. I don't know where I was. One of the two of us has to get it right. Go ahead, Dr. The first record of an Episcopal congregation calling itself St. Marks in Highland was in 1857 and that group of people eventually built a church in 1874 on an acre of land that was donated by a farmer. And half of it went to the church and half went to the graveyard that both were consecrated in 1883 by the bishop of the diocese. The land donated increased over time till it's now about 3 1 1 to four acres somewhere in that range. And some of it was used for a standalone parish house that was built in 1954. And it did not butt up against the church itself, they were separated. And the total amount of land was kind of split between the buildings, the graveyard, and then unassigned land to be used later. In 1991, the original church was expanded to the state it is in today and joined to the parish hall in the process. The church is led by Reverend Chris Tang, who's here with us. They're on the order of 100 families that belong and that is a number that's been relatively consistent since its founding. 100 families and on the order of 150 plus people with 30 to 50 children within that particular number. There is one major service a week at 10 o'clock on Sundays. There are two other smaller services, one at 815 in the morning on Sunday and one on Wednesday morning. The major Sunday service will draw typically 100 people and the other ones typically half a dozen people each. Sunday school for the children is held at nine o'clock before the service starts at 10 on Sundays where there's coincident adult education. The Sunday School is held in the basement of the parish hall and that has proven to be difficult because of the condition of the hall and how it is not kept up over time. St. Mark's also has weekly meetings for various organizations. There's a knitters group. There's a Bible study class. The choir meets every Thursday means, so it's a typical church in that regard. And some meet monthly like the Vestry for example. We use the parish hall for weddings and funerals. I would expect that those are maybe three or four a year typically. And they vary in size from 100 plus people to 10, who are the immediate family. We're very involved in the community, in activities such as grassroots. We have a habitat for humanity equivalent in an organization called Dream Builders, which is supported by six churches and a temple in the Howard County area. And very effective in not only helping the people who need the support with their homes, but also the majority of the work is done by young people, teenagers. And it is an excellent experience for them to see how other people need, what they need, what their status is, and how they can contribute to the community as a large. We allow other organizations to use the parish on an as needed basis as long as there's some reasonable affiliation, for example the Highland Association has used it at times. We joined, I joined the church 25 years ago and even then there was discussion of the need for a new parish hall. It is a tired building. There is no air conditioning in the basement so it's difficult, it's very warm and hot in the summer, and there is a mold problem year around keeping it under control. The potential new families with children who visit the church is going to continue to thrive because there's a natural loss of membership due to retirements due to death, whatever the particular case might be. And so if we're going to continue to remain vibrant and active, we have to replenish ourselves as time goes on. It's very difficult to have multiple events at the same time. The parish hall is two floors, a floor that has a very large fellowship hall that can, let's say, hold 100 people in round numbers. And the classrooms below it, each classroom can hold 20 in round numbers. Well, if you're gonna have 50 people meet, you're either occupying a whole fellowship hall with a hundred, you know, that could hold a hundred, or you can't fit in the classrooms. And so, for example, we have had a problem over time after church is over, and we wish to have coffee hour and we always have coffee hour. But somebody wants to have a meeting for the building committee or somebody wants to have a meeting for a Bible study or whatever it might be. They conflict with each other and some we've bought partitions, we've tried to hold it and then the sacristy and just we've never had a convenient solution and that's something that we're trying to solve. So why are we doing this now? As I said, it's been a subject of conversation for decades. We finally decided to hire an architect to do a feasibility study. We have a problem with our plot. On one side we have the graveyard, the other side we have the parking lot and then hall shop road. So going east west I think that is where hemmed in. If we go to the south, the church is there. And the composition of the graveyard is such, is that it narrows down. So we have a trapezoidal area in which we have to fit our work. So we hired the architect to do a feasibility study. He did one and showed that we could have a solution that fits our size and our missions and what we intend to do for a price that we believed was affordable. We asked the parish in a pledge drive, are you willing to contribute? The answer turned out to be yes. And so we've been embarked on that steadily for about a year now. And subject to any questions you might have of me, that ends my testimony. I don't have any questions, Mr. O. Okay. We have other questions. Fine. What's called John McBeth. Me and share the screen. Good exhibits. J-O-H-N. Yes, ma'am. MC, capital B. Yes. I need to swear you in, sir. Thank you very much. I solemnly swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury that the responses given in the statements made will be the truth. I'll treat the nothing but the truth. I do. Thank you. Please state your name and address for the record. Okay. John McPeth and I'm also going to give the church address 1 2 7 0 0 Hallshop Road Highland Maryland 207 7 7 7. Thank you. Mr. McBeth you've been engaged as I'm working with the building committee and working on the architectural design. That's correct. And when I show you the exhibits, I'll let you work with the laptop if you would. Perfect. Are you a parishioner? Are you employed by the church? I'm a parishioner. Thank you. Family joined the church 38 years ago. Thank you. What do you like to tell the hearing, Ethan? Well, I'd like to walk you through the existing facility a little bit to provide some context, and then we'll show you the new design. So we are in the architect design phase. We've been through conceptual design. We're now completing the design development phase, the next phase would be construction drawings. So what you see here on this screen is, where's my mouse? Mouse is not showing up. Oh, there it is. It's delayed. It's very slow. Yeah, but I'm looking up there. It's just very slow. Okay, so this is a view. The road on the bottom is Route 216. The road going off to the left is a Hallshop road. The building closest to Hallshop road is the original church that was built in 1874. It was built as a rectangular building, standalone building. In 1955, the building at the other end is which we call the parish hall was built and they were two separate buildings. And that was the state of the facility when our family joined. And so in the winter time to go to coffee hour, you'd have to go outside and cross the parking lot and go into the parish hall. In 1990, we connected the two buildings. We actually expanded the church. We added, I think it was five rows of pews, moved the altar further away from Hallshop Road, and added the two transeps, which makes the building in the shape of a cross. One that transepsed the one on the left is where the choir sits and the organist and the one on the right was, again, additional seating. And when was that addition? In 1991. Oh, that's a 380 square feet addition in 1991. I don't remember this number of square feet, but there was actually, that seems like more than 380 square feet. That's why I'm asking. So the first floor in the church in the sanctuary was done, but also underneath that was a lower level, underneath all of that addition, and that was offices and storage space. Under the trancept. Correct. The whole new cross-adjustment. Correct. That's right. And then you see between the trancepts and oh, and to the right of the right transcept, there is a room we call the narthax, and it has a glass window into the sanctuary. The original thought was that families with very young children, kind of a crying room, could participate. We don't really use it in that way today, but it's another gathering area. And then when you come out of the narthax and head toward the parish hall, that's a little lobby there and there are stairs that go up to the first level of the parish hall and then down into the basement and down into the lower level where the offices are and where the next one. Dispaced. I'm going to mount. This is a view from Route 216. So you see on the left side you can see the original church and the transep, the right transep that was added. The double red doors is that little foyer area where most of the congregation comes in to go to services. And then the building to the right, which is a CMU, all-center block building, that's the original 1955 parish hall. Now what we are doing, and you'll see this in the . Now what we are doing and you'll see this in the upcoming drawings is that that entire center block building to the right the parish hall is going to be demolished. The addition that was done in 1991 will mostly remain there will be some modification to it, and the church to the left will remain untouched. We plan no changes to that part of the building. Now if we go here, this is the floor plan of the new building and the old building. Very hard to see here, but if you look carefully, you can see a dashed line that outlines the parish hall that is to be demolished. And then all the rest of what you see on here is the new construction. Except for on the right-hand side where the original church is. You can see the original sanctuary and the transeps. So underneath those transeps is a lower level, and that's the part that will also remain and be renovated. Move a couple of walls around, and they'll be repurposed for different purposes, which we'll talk about. There are three main functional areas of the new building. So the first part is, I wish I could point. Can I use a pointer or a geometry just because I have a pointer? Unfortunately the mouse is not caping up with me and I can't really show you. Let's see. And what will pass for second, Mr. O, I presume you want the photos and we'll make the petitioner's exhibit number one. Yes, that would be good. Thank you. I have one to add. And the site plan exhibit. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. There we go. We'll go on from there. Okay. Okay. So if you follow me on the screen, this is the original church. This area here, which is going to be new, this is the administrative area. So it has the offices for the director, assistant director, and the secretary. It has a meeting space we call the part of our, this is the foyer, the entrance to the building will be actually be in the, oh my battery just died. We'll be in the same place as the two red doors you saw in the previous picture of the existing building. How do I, I, it's great down. So right here is where the double doors are. The nursery. Okay. Yeah. And then over here is a nursery. That's correct. We have restrooms here. The next area is what we refer to as the fellowship area. So this is the fellowship, the new fellowship hall and the kitchen and the pantry that supports the fellowship hall. And then the last section over here on the right is the Christian education area. So there will be four classrooms there. Now as Rich mentioned, one of the real challenges we had was the space, the restricted area. So it's very trapezoidal down here in the lower left-hand corner is where the graveyard is and up here on the top is where parking and then route 216 is located. It's about 9,000 square feet total. There will be, in this diagram, we just show some furniture layout. Just to kind of show how functionally the building will be used, a collection of round tables in the fellowship hall for the events we have there. This line across here is actually a removable partition. So most of the time that will be closed, but when we have larger functions, then we would open it up and add more tables in this area up here. The primary traffic flow will be the same as it is today. So parking is along 216 and down here to the west of the building. So most people will come in from the parking lot through a new lobby, which will be larger, and they will go into the Northaxon, into the church for services. There's also a small amount of parking down here, closer to the corner of 216 in Hallshop, and some of those people may go through the front door of the church, but that's the primary path that they will take. For our fellowship functions, they can come in that same door and go left down this corridor or come in new doors that will be in the front of the fellowship hall here. And for Christian education, most people will be coming to service, and so they'll come in that one of those two and go down to the to the classrooms. This shows the lower level. The dark gray lines are existing walls. The light gray lines are new construction in the lower level. And like I mentioned before, this used to serve years ago as offices now, it's going to be a choir practice room, a praise band practice room, which we've added, I don't know how many years we've had praise ban, but maybe 10 years. And then storage, everything else here will be storage. There's an elevator shaft and a stairwell to get up and down from the first floor down to the lower level. There's also an egress down here from the lower level to the outside for fire. Now I'll show you a couple of perspective views that the architects have provided us. The one on the left is a view from about the same view as we showed the existing facility. So here again is the original church and over here is all the new construction. There's also a view from the intersection at ground level, the intersection of 216 and Hallshop. This view here is if you're driving east on 216 from Highland, this is the view you would see and then one more little bit further down. Shows the view that you would see if you were driving up Hallshot Road towards 216 so you can see the graveyard here in the foreground. And then the last slide that I have is this one, which is kind of a very important one, one that a significant amount of time was spent. We had a number of goals. One was we are known as the cute little white church on Route 216. And we wanted to preserve that image. And so we did not want the new building to overwhelm the historic church. And so what you'll see here is that we made sure that the roof lines of the new facility were not larger than the church, so that the church continues to be the focal point as people approach the property. It's kind of hard to see in this picture, but we are also using similar exterior materials, bored and batten with some minor changes to it for the rest of the facility. But we also wanted to bring a more modern look to the new facility, and that's why you see one of the reasons why you see this glass in front of the fellowship hall, and the lobby, the new lobby area will also have glass. So we think it was important to blend the two historic and modern facility features. And that's, this is another perspective view from a little further down to 16 toward Highland. We also, this treatment here over this gable area has some Christian symbolism symbolism which we plan to continue through the building. And that is the end. So I have one more page to my dog. Oh, Dave. Sorry. Let me go down. Ah, yes. Okay. No, I have that one. The rear view, there we come. Yeah, so this is the rear view looking from, actually, if you were standing back in the graveyard and looking towards the back of the building. So this part here is where the classrooms are. This is the fellowship hall. There will be doors that go out of the fellowship hall to a little patio area. I have questions. All right, I am exceedingly confused. I have read the Technical Staff Report. I have read the meeting in front of the our historic preservation commission. And from that I get a lot of questions because I walked in here tonight under the assumption as the petition says, we are not demolishing the parish hall. We are merely expanding the parish hall. And tonight I learn, no, you're demolishing the parish hall. In the hearing in front of the historic preservation commission, it was also made really clear that this wasn't a demolition. It was just a movement of a door internal to the parish hall and the sanctuary. So that's not true then either. It's what you're telling me tonight. That's correct. Okay. So the petition is wrong. The testimony given in front of the historic preservation commission is wrong. And then let me go on to the petitions. Excuse me. The petitions, excuse me, the Technical Staff Report says the total level one of the parish, the existing parish hall, which is merely being enlarged would be enlarged by 4,645 square feet. No, so that's not true either because it's not being enlarged, it's being demolished and it is being replaced with in 8,100 square foot per shawl. You can't nod, he has to answer. Yes. So, so the staff report is wrong. The review by the historic preservation commission is wrong. All right. So tonight you are telling me that there is going to be a new parish hall. It is indeed going to be 8100 square feet. Yes. Okay. So that's correct. All right. So in the historic preservation commission document, it says that in 1991, a 380 square foot addition was constructed to connect to the parish hall and church. That's not right either, because the T of your sanctuary is whole lot more than 380 square feet. I believe that's correct. I don't actually know that, but I believe that's correct. The transeps, the nave was extended, and the two buildings were connected. Right. The testimony in front of the historic preservation commission was just that there was this little 380 square foot addition to connect the parish church, the parish hall and the church. So that's not correct. Okay. So issues that were raised by the Historic Preservation Commission. There were several issues raised, one of which, if we look at the document, you just presented, which is a petitioner's to E, which shows the artics rendering of the side of the church with the new side entrance hall. And as you said, with the more modern incorporation of the glass and the religious symbols. The Historic Preservation Commission was concerned about the visual height of that particular eve or roof pitch as overwhelming the church. From this artist rendering does look a little overwhelming but could you talk to me about that? Yes we did we did actually redesign that based on comments from the historical we lowered that roof and we also lowered the pitch of the roof over the classrooms. One of their comments was if you look at it from 216, you see an awful lot of roof over the classrooms. Right, correct. And so what we did was we lowered that roof. Okay. All right. Another comment that was made was with regards to the proximity of the new construction and existing grave sites. And I believe you're going to tell me that all construction will be sensitive to the location of any and all grave sites. Yes, that's correct. And furthermore, the plans that we showed the HPC did have a section of roof that actually went into the 10 foot set, it was just an overhang, but it overhung into that 10 foot setback from the graveyard. That has also been redesigned, so there's no part of the building, including overhangs, that in that 10-foot setback. Okay. And then furthermore, we did one other thing. We did a second ground penetrating radar, which found two anomalies, which we went and did digs. Neither one of them was a grave. Okay, so you are confident that you're aware of any grave sites. Yes, ma'am. Okay. All right. I think that ends my questions. Do you have any redirect, Mr. O? No, I don't. I just want to make sure your questions are being answered. I do have two individuals here who did attend the HBC meeting. Well, I'm just concerned in that both the HBC meeting had incorrect information and the technical staff report is incorrect in accordance with what you're telling me tonight and that is you want to demolish the entire parish hall and you're going to build a new hall. So that's all new information. I don't know how technical staff and whoever testified, I'm not going to look up a name who testified in front of the HP service defect that there was going to be no demolition. So I just need to have the correct facts. So the correct facts are that the old parichel will be demolished and a new parichel to the effect of 8,100 square feet will be constructed. Correct. All right. Yeah. I don't know how these are so wrong. Okay. I didn't think that was a point of confusion. In fact, I will point out that the petition is exhibit number 2a in the subsequent floor plans. As Mr. McBeth pointed out, they show the existing airshall. Right. So I was going to ask you. Superimposed on top of the view. So basically, this is your proposed site plan 2a. No, we actually have a conditional use plan as well. We're getting to that. Yes, we're getting to that. That's our next list. Okay, I'm good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Do you think you'll need the SD for the C.A. Can you put those in the plate on the screen? Yep. I'm going to try to zoom out now. The other ones were so zoomed in. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. I'm going to put it on the table. So, see you playing a little data heavy so it's kind of taking its time coming up. Here we can swear and if you want. All right, let me get you spelling your name correct. It's Dan Swini, S-S-W-E-E-N-E-Y. How are you employed Mr. Swini? I'm a civil engineer. I'm a wait. Oh, try. Okay, sir, I need to swear you in. I solemnly swear or affirm under the penalties of purgeary that the responses given in statements may to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I do. Please state your name and business address for the record. My name is Dan Swinney and the address is 3909 National Drive, Burton'sville, Maryland, 20866. How are you employed, Mr. Swinney? I'm a civil engineer. And you were a good chick little Weber, the consultant for this conditional use of redevelopment. And you've had opportunity design sites for other religious facilities, if you're not. Yes. And you've had the opportunity to testify before the Harry County Board of Appeals hearing examiner, land use, and development matters in other cases. Correct. Okay. What would you tell the hearing examiner about this conditional use, the subject property and surroundings? Sure. Do you want to try and put it up or? Yeah. Where if you have a copy, I can just look at my copy. Oh. Sure. All right. All right. So as you heard already, the site is located at the intersection of the All right. All right, so as you heard already, the site is located at the intersection of Maryland 216 Scags of Road and Hallshop Road in Highland. The site is surrounded by Maryland 216 to the east, Hallshop Road to the south, and then residential and agricultural properties to the west and to the east, Hallshop Road to the south, and then residential and agricultural properties to the west and to the north. And in addition, there are residential properties across the street on both Hallshop and 216. The site is accessed by an existing driveway on Hallshop Road, which is... Got that? Just... What? which is Existing access on Hallshop Road is located right here and that this was built and approved in the With the 1990 STP. I believe it's a- Could you speak just a little closer to your mic yet? Sorry. Yeah, the existing access was built and approved under the STP 90. I don't remember the exact number. The STP 90064. The existing parish hall, as you've seen is right here, the existing churches right here, the parish hall is here and outlined in blue is the new footprint that will be placed over top of the demolished parish hall. I think the overall footprint will expand by a little over 5,000 square feet. Why don't you duck there and it's demolished. The site is three and a half acres. As you know, it's, which is more than the minimum required for a conditional use facility. After the development, the law coverage will be about 10,500 square feet, which is approximately 7% of the property, which is below the 25% maximum for a conditional use. The maximum height allowed in our zoning is 40 feet. And when you measure the building height, proposed building height as it relates, as accordance with the zoning, the building will be 21 feet. That's the church itself or the addition? The addition will be 21 feet when I think you measure to the midpoint of the roof. And what's the height of the church? I think it's just over 20 feet when you measure the same way to the midpoint. Yes. Yes. 31. 31? Well, no, it's to the midpoint of the roof. Yeah, that's how zoning defines it. Yeah. So let me try to get a little clarity on that. So when you measure, when you measure the accordance to the zoning regulations, the existing church is 20 feet plus or minus and the proposed parish hall will be 21 feet plus or minus essentially in line. So it will be taller than the, the parish hall will be taller than the church. At the midpoint of the roof. About a foot maybe. I know, but I just had testimony that it was lowered. It was lowered. It was much higher than that previously. So the church is 20 and the addition is 21. Okay. What's comply with the RR zone? Okay. Maximum. So there are no changes to the proposed access, off-hawkshop road, and this access is not shared with any other properties. All that are required parking for the church will be located in the parking lot here, on site. Okay. It's now we'll get into some of the general criteria. Are you familiar with the county's general plan, Hoco by design? Yes. Okay. And staff report explains how Hoco design policies are generally not directly related conditional use requests for religious facilities, but the property cited religious facilities are generally compatible with residential areas. You agree with that, please? I do. And how about the nature and intensity of the use given the size of the property in relation to the proposed uses to be appropriate to the property? Yeah, I mean, although the size, the lot requirement doesn't apply in this situation because it's an existing use. The three and a half acres is still larger than a three acre minimum. The uses will be predominantly indoors as a religious facility. The limited operations are proposed consisting of religious services and educational on Sundays at 8 a.m. and 10 a.m. with occasional small group meetings two to three times per week and special services during holiday and cultural events. The only anticipated employee will be the rector whose office hours will be between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. a weekdays. Also the property fronts on Hallshop Road which has the staff report notes is a major collector. That's an appropriate classification for the number and types of vehicles associated with this use. What are the main adverse physical impacts that general light might be associated with the proposed conditional use? It would mainly be noise and lighting. And how about dust and odors, vibrations, hazards? I wouldn't general associate those with those. You should speak a little louder. Yeah, generally, what an associate those with being with the relative facility. Okay. With this proposal, do you believe that the impact of adverse physical effects will be greater at this property than would be generally elsewhere in the RDO zoning district? No, they will not be greater. Okay. The property will have minimal activity, minimal activity which will occur indoors, which will mitigate any adverse effect from noise upon the vicinity of properties. The majority of the activities will be one day a week Sundays Sundays, from 8 a.m. to 1 p.m. The any lighting will be controlled and directed downward and will not be shine and reflect on adjacent properties. And the buffering and landscaping will provide extra mitigation of the adverse effects of lighting and noise upon the signal properties. Have the location, nature and height of structures, walls and fences and the nature and extent of landscaping on the site. Have they been designed in such a way that the uses would not hinder or discourage the development or use of adjacent land and structures more at this property than elsewhere in the RRD is on the district? Yes, the structure will replace an existing structure and will be over 100 feet from the closest property. It's hideous in conformance with the bulk regulations and is generally the same as the existing building. And this report, this parish hall will not hinder or discourage the development of any adjacent land uses. What landscaping and buffering have been proposed for the property? So, the landscaping will be addressed at the site plan, but the petitioner will comply with all requirements of the landscape manual and scenic road regulations. They intend to install shrubs along the parking, which is adjacent to 216 and will screen the portion of the church that Addition that is visible from Hallshop Road How many parking spaces are required for this use? 21 spaces will be required and how many are you providing there are 38 shown on the plan and will that number of parking spaces that you're providing be Appropriate to serve the proposed uses yes, the church feels that's appropriate. And how about the driveways and parking loading and refuse areas? Are they located and screened from public roads and residential uses to minimize adverse impacts on adjacent properties? Yeah the driveway and parking are existing and we're previously approved by STP 9064. These features will not be enlarged or expanded. And the landscaping will provide adequate screening. And there are no existing or proposed, landscaped or no existing or proposed loading areas or dumpsters. Regarding the driveway, you had previously talked about the ingress egress for this property and how that is an approved condition. Is that going to change at all as a result of this? So what was determined to be an adequate intersection is not being modified at all, we'll continue to exist as is. Correct. And providing the safe site distance that's already there. Yes. Does this conditional use have a greater potential for adversely impacting environmentally sensitive areas in a vicinity than elsewhere? No, there are impacting environmentally sensitive areas into vicinity than elsewhere. No, there are no environmentally sensitive areas on this property. And finally, does this conditional use plan have a greater potential for diminishing the character and significance of historic sites in the vicinity, including this historic structure on this property? No, the churches go into the HPC and they have worked to address their comments and they have no adverse effects on the historical resources. Okay. Those are the questions I have for this witness. Thank you. I'm going to put it on the top. I'm going to attach to your petition was a site plan dated July of 2024. This afternoon or this evening, a new plan has been presented and it is dated October of 24. Can you tell me what the difference is between the plans? There were several, there were a few staff comments that came out after one of the reviews and we addressed those comments and the October version was resummitted to staff. All right, so the October version and the second is petitioners exhibit three and that will be the site plan in this case. Yes, ma'am. May I make a clarification for the record on that? I think it's important. I'm glad you caught that. On November the 4th of 2024, the petitioner filed that October 2024 Conditional Use Revise Plan to replace the July version. For some reason, that July Conditional Use Plan continued on to use somehow and that posted. But I wanted you to let you know that the plan that was ultimately reviewed and the staff report was written on was the October 2020 plan. Yes, and I do have the email where we sent that including the October 2024 plan to DPC Peter Conrad. Thank you. I appreciate that. So I'm going to ask you some questions. I've already asked the other witnesses. You have no idea what the square footage was that was constructed in 91 when the transcripts were built, right? Yeah. The STP that was approved in 1990, I was trying to look at that before. It showed some areas that did look bigger. And maybe that's where the number was coming from. Was that previously approved site plan? Yeah, it was bigger. All right. Are you in agreement that the new parish hall will be 8100 square feet? Yes. So, on your general note number 14, 15, 15, you indicate that the building area, level one in the basement, existing 9371 square feet and proposed 14,000 and 16 square feet. Can you break that apart for me? What's the level one square footage and what's the basement square footage? Do you have those numbers? I'm assuming level one is going to be 8,100 square feet. Well, I mean, the building area is the overall which includes the existing building to remain. And so the- Well, it says the parish hall will be 8,100 square feet. So is that statement correct or not? Yes. I guess in note 15, those areas also include them. I understand. So I'm asking you to break apart 15. So if the first floor is actually 8,100 square feet, I need some confirmation here. I'm just picking up these numbers that aren't necessarily correct. I need you confirmation here. I'm just picking up these numbers that aren't necessarily correct. I need you to tell me what level one will be and what the basement will be. I'm just going to say I have something even higher to grade. This is how we're showing it now, but this is how we're showing it now. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So if this is the 1800s at grade, and this is the new lower level, it's new construction. This is the lower level, it's being done from the 1950s edition. This is the 1950s, a little bit of the 1980s, and it's being done. Do you remember how much of that? I mean, this is only the perishable, correct? This is also included in the. Yeah, because we're not really done on much of the underneath the turns, so we're not really done on that. So this is just the underneath the 1950s edition. Is that track? Yeah, I think what we're, what my plan mixed. Old and new. Yes. And these numbers are focusing on just the work area. Can we give you the numbers for the work area? That's the numbers we have handy. I want to know your general note 15 says the building area level one and basement. I wanna know what the building area of level one is. What's the footprint of level one? I wanna, I don't have that. And then the secondary question is, what's the building footprint of the basement? This is the existing church. So this is the 10-4 on the first. That's right for the proposed. Yeah exactly. So it's the 10-4 number. Yeah, of the existing church. I guess what's there today? There's 93 and 71 square feet. How much of that is? First level, how much that space been, do you know? Of existing, so 2300, historic and about 2800 degree that's being demolished. So 5,100. So I don't know what that nine. Oh, because I'll stand the basement. Well, I'm going to be fair to say that there's about 5,100 on the, um, approval and about 4,000 in the basement. That seemed not right. That does seem about right. Okay. This is for me. I know. I know. So I can't read these now. Oh, sorry. So 2300 is the existing. So I'm sorry. 51's first four. So yeah. Okay. Okay. So it's the first four is approximately 5100 square feet. So it's not 8100 square feet. The existing building. Is that what you, I thought that's what you're asking for? No. I'm asking for the proposed existing building is going away. I don't necessarily care about it anymore. Okay. You're asking me to care about the new building. And so 15 says the proposed building level one and basement is 14,000 and 16 feet. I wanted you to break that out and tell me how many square feet is the proposed level one of the new parish hall and how many square feet is the proposed basement of the new parish hall. Okay. The first, the overall first level is the 104555. That's the listed in note 16. That's the lock coverage. The first floor, sorry, I can't hear you. What, the first floor is what? The first floor is the 10,000, 455. That's listed in note 16. That's the proposed building footprint. And then the remaining, the difference between the 10,455 that's listed in note 16 that's the proposed building footprint and then the remaining the difference between the 10455 and the 14,000 is the basement area. Does the 10,000 include the sanctuary? Yeah, yes, that's everything. I just don't understand all these numbers that don't match up. Okay. No, what Mr. Sweeney said was there's a number on note 16. The proposed light coverage is 10,455. That's the entire footprint of the first floor of all buildings. Does that include the patios? It does not include the patios. It does not include the patios. But like coverage would be patios. If there are patios, I- The site plan had one or two patios. I just need to get this number right. No, I understand that. But if we could say 10,455 is the first floor, which includes the sanctuary that has a square footage of, I think we have the number on here. No, okay, no. They just introduced another fact. No, but you would have to back that out of the number of the 10,455. Okay, so you and I are lawyers. Mr. Swimming, you back it out. And get to the point of how much is what's the square footage of the first floor of the new parish hall? That's the 8050 that we had discussed earlier. I'm sorry. That's the 8,850 square feet. It's now 8,050 square feet. We're just looking at the parish hall. The first floor. First floor. Yes. 8,050, which is different than 8,100. OK, first floor. And then the basement would be 14,016 minus the 8,050. And then you guys subtract out the 8,050. And then you guys have tracked out the piece that the existing charts that remains. This is just maybe as the proposed number of 14,016 include the existing sanctuary. Yes. It does. Okay. So let's back that out I have an answer to that. No, it's just saying good. It's just saying for print. This includes the basement. And so it includes the basement and the sanctuary. Yeah, that's everything. The sanctuary. The sanctuary is about the 20, 300's everything. It's the same choice. I think the same choice about the 2300 plus your minus 2300. Isn't it just that number minus 2300? And then, yep, this minus 2300 as well. the Do you need a break, Mr. Swin? Do you try to? We're going to take a break. I can take a five-minute break just to make sure we're... Yeah, I'm going to take a five-minute break. We're simpatic on these numbers. Yeah, okay. And Mr. O, since your client asked for the advisory comments from the HPC, I'm going to admit them as exhibit number four. Yes, thank you. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. 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I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. We are now recording. Okay. We, the of the new work, the new addition, the is 1,000 square feet in the basement. 1,000 even? Give or take, plus or minus. And then there's the 8050 on the first level. 8,000 50. Yes. Not 8,100. It's approximately 80-50 plus reminders. I think that was just a break up of the level one and basement detail that you wanted. So we provide that but the numbers that we provided on the plan are accurate right no no but I meant in general no no no I'm done with my question yes all right we do have the architect and traffic engineer available if you lie have any questions but otherwise so I saw that mr. kronillo yes is online and your architect is Mr. Lumin is yes Stephanie Tentures here And available oh stephening Tenture okay Do you wish to call either one of them mr. Oh? No madame examiner where that's our case where we're complete All right. OK. That being said, the evidentiary hearing in this matter will deem to have been concluded. There were four additional sets of documents taken into the record. The record is now closed and a decision and order will be forthcoming. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you.