you you you you you you you The first item on our agenda is going to be a presentation from the Smiling Goat Ranch. If you guys want to come up and we're so excited to have you here. Okay. Is it okay if I sit here? Yeah? Perfect. But put it up. That on your flare. Your computer. Who are you? I'm fine. Um, then it all been. Oh, my phone. I was so, I was so cute. It's a cute phone. Oh, it's a fun idea. Thank you. Oh, I love it that. Thank you. Oh, that's fun. Another one. And say these for when a chair. The donkeys and the bunnies. The donkeys and the bunnies. Yeah, just right around the corner. Oh, they seem to have to re-cringes. These are so cute. Yeah, I think they have fun. It's like what they do for the petrol dot. Oh, I don't know if they still in the but you still have the petrol dot. For the avalanche. Yeah. Well, the pup that's on Peking County. Sheriff's Depot. Oh, yeah. He's pretty charming. He's pretty charming. Yes. And it's so funny when I picked these up from the printer, they were like, we love poppy in the sweater. No. I'm sorry. We'll the audio from the video play though. I'm going to try to close that bridge when we get there. Let's try. We'll be as is first. Don't lose audio. Okay. Woo! I'll regret it. I'll have to do it. I'll have to do it. There's chairs. Wow. Two. It's green. Yeah. I'm Cheryl Bartell, founder of Smilingote Ranch and we're going our tenth year. Wow. I've amazed. It's great. Yes. And Blair Palmer, sitting to my left, is on our board, and she's with us several years, and is a snowmass resident. We had a little open house two years ago, working with Andy, hugely popular. We had many parents and grandparents reaching back out saying, when are you coming back? So, super excited about this opportunity. So, I think we have 10 minutes. We'll roll through this. We've got a couple video clips that tells the story better than I could, but let's show you why. This is the first video. Do we have a sound? Okay. So, what's going on? Maybe, yeah. We're going to skip the video. Should we skip the video? We can send it later. We can. The video is really good. I promise you. Okay. Okay, a quick overview. So what we do is use the human horse connection, but we also use other animals. We have goats, rabbits, dogs, minidonkeys, mini horses that are all part of the healing process. It's an innovative therapeutic approach. You'll see that book cover there. That is The Horse Boy. And there is a movie by the same name that won awards at Sundance Film Festival back in 2009. I, my day job, I have a PR company and I was doing the PR for a syndigo and they brought in celebrity autism parents back in 2012 and Rupert Isaacson was one of the celebrity autism parents and he went on this journey to discover how working with horses helped calm his artistic son. The movie is amazing. It's their Odyssey 2 Mongolia, the birthplace of the horse. So if you want a good movie, it's a great one. It's a scientifically validated approach. We serve autism, PTSD, anxiety, depression, trauma, grief, recovery, and addiction. We really started out focusing on autism and then PTSD with veterans. Then when COVID hit, boy, we really were slammed with people with anxiety and depression. So the science of the healing is actually through connection and what Rupert discovered and he worked with when he found out his son was autistic. He got in his vehicle from Austin, Texas and drove to CSU to meet with Dr. Temple Grandin. And I don't know if you saw she's been named USA Today's Woman of the Year. It's pretty exciting. And she has an amazing way of describing how her autism affects her, but also she's able to help others. So she helped Rupert create the horseboy method and the oxytocin release through movement is how she helped us understand the science behind it. There's a lot of stress reduction. It helps everyone, even if you're not having any of these diagnosis. And I hope you all will come visit us and experience it for yourself. The environment is super important for the best results. And we're trying to break through that fight or flight cortisol stress cycle. So how are we unique? We welcome all who are affected and we actually do not charge for our services. So grant writing, donations, fundraising is huge, huge, huge to what we do. Last year, 440 hours of therapeutic programs, including 339 family sessions. This was all done between basalt and Newcastle. And I'm full time also do not take a salary. I have one full time certified recreation therapist. And then I have a part time horse handler. So we are a small and mighty team doing a lot of work. And again, our services are free. I mentioned earlier we serve autism PTSD, anxiety depression, trauma, grief recovery addiction. 34% of our participants are from Picking County and we have families from both Aspen and Snowmass driving a new castle right now. And what's really tough is for those, especially single moms working, being able to come down for services. So that's why we wanted to talk to you about having a mobile unit coming to Snowmass to make it easier for those families to receive services. And the radiograms is an ideal location. We have lots of partners throughout the valley. I'm sure you'll recognize many of these names, especially our friends at Challenge Aspen. We work with them a lot in the summertime. They will send their custom adventures, they call them. And we have had many repeat challenge Asking kiddos coming and they specifically request us. So I actually haven't thought about what that might look like if we're doing sessions up here already but I think part of it is they like the adventure coming down Valley and then going to the hot springs pool after us. I mentioned to Cindigo we work a lot with the Aspen Valley land trust and bring animals to their events. We work with the Aspen Historical Society, Casa of the Nithe, Momenta Recovery, and Four Winds Farms are both down Valley Recovery Centers, Rolling Fork School District, the Elk's Club, and Western Slope Veterans Coalition. And there are a lot more. This is just a nice representation. And here we are in action. Some of you may know Lieutenant Colonel Dick Merritt. Does anybody know him from Pissalt? He's kind of a celebrity in and of himself. He was one of our founding board members. He's now 88 and on stage four, Reno Failure. And that is him in the upper left corner, saluting we did a partnership with Hutzfer Vets that year. So that's us taking the veterans out for a trail ride and actually three of those photos or veteran photos and then the little girl in the saddle with me. This is us back riding. I am teaching her the game of tag and I don't know if you any of you were at the main event this last year. So that's the horse, Dakota, who was in the arena being chased by 10 kids with pool noodles and totally handling it, which is not, that is an amazing horse, if I say so myself. But he's got a lot of gifts. We have different, three different kinds of sessions. We have family sessions, group sessions, and events for the community like the open house that we worked with, Andy on. Our one hour weekly sessions or play dates that we call for the kids are tailored specifically to each client, so nothing is cookie cutter. Everything is customized. It's almost like we are teachers doing lesson plans. So our rec therapist works with the families and goal attainment scales. It can be everything from teaching a child to make contact, eye contact to learning how to shake somebody's hand, to having self-confidence, leading a big horse and how that feels empowering. We provide specialized trauma-informed therapy. If you look at that upper photo, this is our new modality, if you will, called the Hurt field, where we actually set up a massage table in the field. And the horse's energy, it's so interesting. We have six horses in there and how they all come up at different times to into the energy field of working with the client. And that lady on the table is one of our Aspen clients that is part of the victim in crime program and drives to us every week. We do sensory and breath work. We also integrate a licensed art therapist. photo before we saw the veterans painting, they were doing power symbols onto the horses. And again, our programs are free for everyone, including veterans. We do community events. We partner with the Aspen Historical Society to do the HeyBale Ball in Aspen, which basically we recreate smiling goat, we truck all the animals up and have a cocktail party with the animals and people love it. We also have done Winnie Wonderland, our holiday event, which I think you guys have had a small introduction to. So our plans for growth, we just participated in the city of Aspen's capacity building academy that they chose five nonprofits, all different sizes. And part of this is a result and Blair was my board member who did the Academy with me is you know what is our plan for growth? How do we grow? And so our thought was offering a snowmass community benefit to the rodeo grounds which right now is used once a week for 11 weeks. So we could help activate that space and provide continued to provide free services to the community in that space. We also work out of the Carvindale rodeo grounds and we have done random appearances in other locations. Our animals are very adept and like doing this. We've been to T. lazy seven several times with our mini donkeys. And we're going to continue to embark on strategic partnerships and we would very much value adding town of snowmass to that partnership list. Our vision is really mostly offering the therapeutic services here but also community inclusion, educational opportunities and use of your facilities. And part of, I mean, when you stand in the rodeo grounds and look at the views and how welcoming it is, it's an amazing space. And I think we could really, I think we could really serve the community and the residents and the second homeowners of snowmass. I don't know if we have, I think we had another video, but I don't know if that one will work. Nope. Okay. So I don't know if you want to close on just how we want to add to tourism and all of that by bringing Western heritage back. Oh, yes. You know, when we did that open house, I was surprised at the number of tourists that came by too. And we did it in the lawn in the rec center and or outside of the Rec Center, I should say by the soccer field. Is that the right way to describe it? And we had a lot, a lot of second home owners stopped by and kids and grandkids as well as locals. So I think this could also be a great tourism benefit to the town as well. Okay, do you wanna do this, Fred? I mean, I just wanted to say that I think that the value of bringing programming like this to snowmast to something that's completely underutilized would be wonderful not only for the community and the people we serve, but also people that are just interested in wanting to know more. And again, as Cheryl said, we're open to anyone. So it's not, you don't have to be, you know, affected by autism or things to participate in our programs. And I think that's one of the unique benefits of smiling goat. And I think when Rupert Isaacson started this method, he didn't really know what it would turn into. But I will say having experienced it firsthand, especially with nonverbal kids who have autism or other issues and seeing how the response happens, it's quite remarkable. And so we would welcome all of you to participate in that. As a horse person my entire life, I am so grateful that I found Cheryl when I moved here and she gave me community, especially not only in the horse community, but beyond that. So I'm very thankful for the programming. I'm very thankful for what it does for our community. And I think we want to be able to give back in a way and use something that otherwise just kind of sits there. Let's be honest. And I'm a rodeo participant too, so I can say that. But we would really, really like to have that participation and do other things. Beyond the therapy we're thinking, we can bring educational programs. We can do horse camps like things like things like that that would be awesome and so we hope that you'll consider our proposal or whatever we're calling this I guess and thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thank you guys for being here. I mean I, when we embarked on the Town Park master plan and sort of the revamping of the rodeo grounds and flipping things around and one of the ideas and doing this was this thought that the space should be activated more and you know we've been looking for opportunities and sort of the main event was the first sort of test of that last year and you know we're hoping to see more of that so I am very appreciative to have you guys come and you know give us something to think about in terms of activating that space I think it's wonderful. I guess for myself I just had a couple of questions. One would be you're talking one day a week or talking multiple times a week. You know we thought we would start with one day a week to see how it works and then go from there. Our middle name is Flexibility. So we're, we have two stock trailers that can travel and just knowing how much we worked at the Carbondale rodeo grounds. I know there's a lot of prep that goes in The day before the rodeo So that was never a good day for us to be there because there was too much commotion and then that affects the clients and their ability to relax and so I think you know staying away from whenever that prep time happens. I haven't I'm assuming it's Wednesday. Well, Tuesday here because of the rodeo being on Wednesday. But also, you know, thinking about like when do you think you would have the most traffic? Are your rec center days equal or there's certain days where there's more people than others and how we might be able to play into that, we'd be wide open. And so if you have your own trailers, like you don't need storage, you basically pack it in, pack it out every time. Correct. Yes. Okay. And I don't know, I mean, Clint, like if we need to, I mean, obviously the rodeo uses it and we can do whatever we want with it when they're not using it, but do we have to have some sort of discussion with them? We should, yes. Okay. I mean, they're just, they're one of our leases and these guys would be a leased see we could figure it out. And we have a relationship with them, you know, and some members of their board. And so I think we'd be happy to absolutely. You know, they like us. They helped us with horse and surremental health month last year. Yeah. So. Well, and I know Andy from the rec centers here and you know, I mean he obviously deals with all things Rack and everything happening down there and understands the traffic and the use more than most of us do But I also was thinking when you were talking because we do run Camp down there in the summer that it might be a great thing to be able to integrate for some of these kids As you know not every single week, but just it might be something really neat to be able to integrate and introduce them into this type of therapy. I mean, I know people that have utilized it, and it has really worked. So that was one of our ideas for sure. Thoughts and from council questions? Yeah, I just, can you describe what the activity would be on the rodeo grounds if you added for a day? For sure. You know, I think it could. It depends if we're doing an open house versus scheduled custom sessions. So if we do an open house, we would bring multiple animals and have an education booth and talk to people about what we do. We would bring probably two goats, two donkeys, two mini horses, the rabbits. The bunnies are very popular. We have these awesome little backpacks that kids can take around with them. So the bunnies don'tette loose. We also have two therapy dogs in the program. And so that's easy, the customized programs. We've even just done that. So we've got all these animals. Will they be in the rodeo grounds or using the pens? I mean, we would. We would. We would. I would love to stage it in the rodeo grounds proper. I think it would be awesome because we have handlers, we have volunteers, we have a volunteer fleet of like 50 people. I haven't actually run the numbers on how many I have in Aspen and Snowmass, but we would make sure we have enough handlers for the animals. If we could use pens, sometimes that's great, and then kids can actually go, like where we are in Newcastle right now, we have a goat pen and all four goats are in there, and kids can physically go in. With the bunnies, we have a different kind of set up where kids can go in. We have like a, it's a bunny play pen, really. So it's easily mobile. We can set it up and make sure that the animals are safe. And how many people, I mean, would you expect it? At an open house. that's the $54 million question. Or $64 million question. It's like 10 people, it's like 200 people. I think we probably had like 50 when we did it two years ago. And I think too, a lot would depend on, and that was us promoting it ourselves. So we didn't link up with the whole tourism group to say, hey, we're down here. So I think it could easily be 100 people on any given day. And is it like all day or it's like an afternoon or a morning or? Well, that's something we'd have to work out with you guys. Yeah, your vision? My vision would be probably half a day just because of animal fatigue and not burning them out so we view them as our business partners and want to make sure that they're happy in the scenario. Yeah. And so So that's the open house. You can describe the therapy. The therapy part. Absolutely. So that can be anything from a scavenger hunt where a child is working on like sight words or certain animals to playing a game of tag where we are cantering horses and teaching the kids rules-based games. So that can be everything from Simon Says to tag to Red Light Green Light. You name it, we play it on horses. And we also can incorporate literacy and math. So that arena is huge. And so we wouldn't necessarily need to commandeer the entire thing. We could do what we do easily in half of it or a quarter of it, depending on the child and the session. So we have an intake form, we set goals with the families, and then we determine what the sessions will look like. We also have another modality called sensory work where you lay on the horse in three different positions and the horse is in a halter, so it's body to body, human to horse contact. And that should be done in the shade under a tree, ideally. But we have learned to adapt. We have 10 by 10 shade dents, and the horses will go under the tent and do sensory there if we need to. That's a much more quiet, introspective, the games of tag are loud and raucous. So there are multiple therapy sessions going on at the same time? Not necessarily, especially because of our small team. So we most likely with schedule three to four individual family sessions and my vision is that we do open houses say we're gonna do these if you bless whatever day and time it is and then we have sign-up sheets and then people could start coming. These are great questions. And we're very flexible. I know I think we have to also be mindful of the heat of the day and how hot it can be for both the humans and the animals. But as long as we have shade, they're pretty happy. Yeah, it seems like the rodeos actually right at the peak heat. It can be around three or four o'clock. Clock, yeah. Right, so warnings might be better. Yeah. Great, other questions? Yeah, I have a question just how you get referrals for people that you work with and just, you works. And if you're ever at capacity or you're still always taking more, how that works. You know, it's interesting how the flow works because it seems to just work like our regular families happen to be taking vacations and then we can plug in other families. We do have a waiting list and so just because life is complicated, people are canceling and coming and going all the time so we can plug other folks in. We would have a a mobile team just assigned to Snowmass. So depending on what day we settle on, hopefully we could have three sessions starting in the morning, go nine to one, and then be finished. That, yeah, and we have an intake form. So if somebody gets a recent diagnosis, we have the forms on our website. Sometimes we get pediatrician referrals. Sometimes we get referrals for veterans from the glimpsed springs clinic that's attached to the VA in grand junction. And so that helps us, and what we do first is what we call a consultation. So if we're working with the affected person, we want the whole family to come. And so that helps us get to know them, kind of figure out what they need, and hear from them what they think they need. And so, and then we make a plan from there, and then that's how we schedule people. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And then you said you'd worked with throwing fork schools? I just wondered what you'd done with them, and if there's any chance you could work with the Aspen School? I would love to. Love, love, love to you. Yeah, we've had a couple different capacities with the Rory Forest School District. So when they built their Riverview Elementary School, the K-8, that had, they funneled all their special needs kiddos to that school, so that class would come to us. And woohoo, was that a challenge for us? Because it was K through 8, kids on all different special needs scale, if you will. So, but we had a lot of fun. And part of what the Horse Point method is is following the child and doing it in nature and having the right human environment. So part of what we do is making sure it may look like all we're doing is playing games but there's a method to the madness and a reason behind why we're playing those games. So for that class, it was, okay, let's figure out scavenger hunt. And one day the teacher said to me, this class does not understand traffic signs, like even like what a stop sign was. So we got a pony cart out, we demonstrated stop and yields and like had the whole class doing it. So we're very creative. But it's a good question. Great question. Yeah. And then we also worked with the Ready for the World class, which was their kiddos who graduated or were about to graduate and learn life skills. So we would incorporate whatever it was like a mini kitchen and cooking utensils and having the mini horse assist in how we're gonna do it. Yeah you name it we've pretty much done it but yeah and we've had like, we've always been an option for basalt high schools ex-ed, so they will send the kids for the day, and they will do some volunteer work, and then they'll all do sensory work. And so when you lay on the horse, as long as you have a horse person at the horse's head, you can call in other people to assist on the side and they don't need to have a horse experience. So the kids feel very empowered when they get to do that. And then our mini horses and mini donkeys pretty much anybody can lead, especially the donkeys. The mini horses kind of can have attitude but it really makes the kids feel like they have control over something that's happening in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So would it be a summer program? Is that what you're envisioning to kind of start working with us? I would imagine for continuity you probably have year round. We do. We work. We work in the snow. We use slays and we have little sleds and horses have been trained. Like kids can go under them. We don't recommend that, but it happens. So we use whatever mother nature is offering us, but we thought summer might make sense just as a starting ground, if you will, but we certainly would look at going through the school year weather permitting. But I think it takes some momentum too. It takes time for people to understand that we're here, that we're offering it. And so I think starting with summer makes sense, but I could easily see us going into the fall and the school year, for sure. Do we park in there in the winter or not? We have two parking in the arena. And if you have a sanitary move, you know, the sand is right. Right, and stuff So for us in the winter it's a parking lot for skiing for skiing right it is but I would say when we originally talked about Redoing the rodeo grounds one of the things we did say is we wanted to be able to utilize it Yeah, yeah, and that's from like December to the end of the ski season. Was that part of the year? We removed the sand after J. S normally. And when does it come back? We never had to put it back. It's pretty great. Yeah, what's the plan for this year? May 1st, I've had a right to do that. Yeah, okay. But there's a good chunk of the year that it would be. And it already is easily available. Yeah. Well, and one of our ideas that was how this whole conversation started was also to see if we could do one time like winter activation to do our holiday event which is more of an open house type format but would be centered around the community and the method that we do and how we could partner with other people in local businesses to bring some joy into snowmoss and whether that's with winter school or whatever, you know, we're open to all of those ideas. But I think the main goal is to start and having a presence at the rodeo ground, get familiar with the space, learn how we can use it, learn how our animals operate in it, and you know, keep sort of dreaming bigger and see how we could do it. And they did really well at the main event. It was, they all were so happy. It was a very enjoyable event. They are. Great. Any other questions? I'd just like to hear from Andy. I mean, there are any issues we need to understand in terms of what works, what doesn't works. If we were to do this. Without having a conversation with them and deciding what's today and in the comments. I don't foresee any issues. It is available outside of Wednesday. Yeah, probably not, just to say also. I understand. The rodeo setup, yeah. Yeah, what do they do when they do the setup? Do they bring in tractors and do the footing and all that and water it down? Yeah. Water and do good girl, mother. Yeah. A lot of moving parts of it. Yeah. I do have a quick question. What's the youngest kids that you guys work with? And I guess when I hear you talk about all these different programs, I'm like, do you want to do more than one day? Like, especially, I just think of the school programming around here, that's really what would be better than that. We always say we do two to 85, but I have one horse. The one whose photo was above that woman's head. He loves babies. And he's gigantic. He's like 16 hands. And we had a family. It was a mom who had three kids and was holding the baby. And the baby's taking his little fist and putting it in his nostrils, the horse's nostrils. And he loved it. So we can kind of, you know, adapt to anything. A lot of kids are getting the diagnoses much younger. It's now happening at like 18 months. My oldest son, who's 30, is on the autism spectrum and we didn't get a diagnosis until he was 10. I think the medical community has a lot more awareness now, but I think that, you know, we certainly, we easily could work with if you're thinking kindergarteners, but even preschool. The biggest thing is keeping everybody safe and having enough hands-on deck, if you will, when you have groups, but we've gotten pretty good at it. In order for you to make this happen for say this summer, what kind of timeline are we working with? When do you need to have a good answer? I think it's important for us to have vision to get a start date for you. In my mind, I was thinking we would launch the same time the rodeos launching for the collective mass of horsey stuff happening. And that's end of June, right? The first one is middle June. I think, you know, if middle of May that would give you enough time to be prepared summer. I think so. And I think we could even start before June rodeo time just to try some like pilots like it would not be like full blown programming just to spend that month or so figure you know how works, where we should park, times of day, shade, where does the sun go? Yeah, you know, where should we put a shade structure if we need to bring a portable one? Where do the animals like to be in the road? Right. That all the horses go to certain corners. That's not our control sometimes. I also could see, I think, not necessarily the end of May, because I think by the end of May, like, there's a lot going on in schools and stuff, but the beginning of May and late April can be the doldrums. So that actually could be an interesting time to do something that was more broad community and kid-oriented oriented because I think people are sometimes looking for things to do then. At least at my kids age, we certainly are. We have to find that like the Aspen Rexeners, like open later than we'd like. And for sure. So I could see that being a time where people are locals, calendars, are not quite as... Quite as full. That's a great idea, Sicily. is national horses for mental health month and this will be the fourth year They're doing it and they have celebrity spokespeople and the idea. It's all an online platform But the idea is that Everybody is posting on social media to kind of raise the awareness of horses for mental health. We participated last year. It was our first year. It was phenomenal. And so it could be really cool end of April to kind of kick off the month with Snowmass and our partnership and horses for mental health. If you guys are game, I'm totally game for that. That would be fabulous. Well I think I'm hearing contents at the table that you know we would be interested in continuing the conversation and moving forward whether that means further conversations Andy with smiling goat ranch and then bringing in the rodeo I guess board or I think what we'll just if it's alright with you Madam Mayor We'll just develop a lease that'll look almost identical to what we do with the rodeo There's big terms. I think it's a dollar a year Okay I can't. And then I mean, we're sparking though. We can we can work with the rodeo and those types of things to coordinate whether it's in my later Friday or what works best and we'll bring a least back to you guys. To be the two big things, a coordinate with the rodeo. So there's no negative impact and we can surely have no liability, which I'm sure you'll take care of. Yeah, no, in the liability. Yes, for sure. And we carry insurance as well for that. My insurance is fabulous, actually. Wherever I go, they. Yeah, no, in the liability, yes, for sure. Yeah. And we carry insurance as well for that. Yeah, my insurance is fabulous, actually. Like wherever I go, they say I'm governed. So I can give you guys release a lot of liability. Yeah. Yeah, and I think also to connecting with snowmastorism and understanding wood events, they have planned and there's some things. We'll take, we'll do that. OK. So we've got something we can coordinate that. Perfect. Well, thank you guys so much. Thank you. Thanks. and there's some things. We'll take, we'll do that. Okay. So. We've got something we can coordinate that. Perfect. Well thank you guys so much. Thanks for having us. Thank you for the time too. Thanks for the time and all the good questions. All right. We look forward to our massages at the radio grounds. There you go. So that would be so fun to put all the horses loose in there and see what they do. That would be really cool. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, next up we have municipal sign code 101 with Dave and I'm in. Come on down Dave. It's like a course. Is there a test at the end? I've given you all of the materials. Because there was a lot of details in these codes. Pass, fail. We'll go through each code one at a time. No. I don't really have a whole course set up, but I certainly have provided you all of the details for the sign code and the comprehensive sign plans that are within the town. Again, Dave Chiniman, Director of Community Development. Thank you for having me tonight. I did put together some information on the town's sign code and I can answer any questions when we get go through with this going through the sign code and some of the comprehensive sign plans. The sign code itself was I understand I was a request to have that discussed tonight. It's intended to have a comprehensive and balanced system of signs for the town. The purpose of the sign code is for signs to be compatible with their surroundings, appropriate to the type of activity expressive and legible they're intended to enhance the economy, and the businesses within the town and also to preserve the open and uncluttered feeling characteristic of the town. In certain areas of the town, and we have, I don't have a number, over 10, probably 12 to 15, comprehensive sign plans. These are sign plans that were created between the 1980s and today for certain areas of the town to allow for flexibility from the sign code provisions. The one off of the sign code is the signs that pertain to marijuana businesses. Those are contained within the marijuana section of the code and are not contained or regulated by the sign code or the comprehensive sign plans. I think with that, I did provide to you, and I did not provide all of the comprehensive sign plans. I thought that might be a little bit of overload. My guess is what I gave you was an awful lot of information. The overall sign code standards are ones that apply all over the town. The comprehensive sign plans apply only to those areas of the town to which their, the ordinance applies. So just for instance, and I gave you, because we spent a lot of time and had had some complaints recently about the mall and the mall signage. And the mall itself has actually, let's see, four different comprehensive sign plans. There wasn't attempt, I understand, in the early 2000s to get one comprehensive sign plan that did not succeed. That would have been beneficial to both staff, I think, and the mall. The different areas of the mall are the Gateway Comprehensive Sign Plan. That says you enter the mall, the Village Mall itself, more of the central locations, the Timber Mill Comprehensive Sign Plan, which is where Venga-Venga is, and then the Westin or View Line Comprehensive Sign Plan. Is that enough to get started or would you like me to go more into the code? Well, I mean, I think part of the reason we asked talk about it was, I mean, I personally don't know about everyone else have gotten several complaints specifically about them all and about what you can see from the ski lift and some of the buildings and just the feel of some of the newer signs not really meshing with the environment. And so I don't know, you know, there is a ton of detail here and thank you. I mean, the fact that there was four different sign plans for the mall area was like, wow, maybe it should be one, but clearly that's been tried and it didn't succeed, but maybe that's something we're gonna look at again. I'm kind of open to what everyone else thinks. I mean, I know Britta, you had brought it up. Took for it to go on agenda, so. On that enforcement issue, I don't think this is gonna be specific to Councillor Gustafson's point, But we have sight of them and we have said, you need to come back, we've asked them, and they've agreed to come back within 30 days. I believe, with a new sign plan. And so you guys have to approve that. And so if it's a, if it's an enforcement type issue, we might not have all the answers today, but if it's a 101, then Dave will have them. I won't have them. And you mean they as in Romero Group? Are they yes? Well, it's actually. And who are us? That will. For the Vanga Vanga area. But those are the two that are. So could you, sorry, could you explain that again? So you are coming back with a more. We have. Assistant sign plan that will address all the.- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- We have told the re- a new CSP so that you can be in compliance and they both chose to be for a new CSP. So we've given them 30 or 40 days a camera, how much time have given them that? But then we will vet it, correct. So that's... for a new CSP. And so we've given them 30 or 40 days I can't remember how much time we've given them. But then we will vet it, correct. So that's, I guess conceivably, they want to alter their plan so that their signs adhere. We would suspect that they're going to come back and write it in such a way that what's up fits that both land now. Yes, with both of those instances. And so those are two areas of the mall, not including the center part or the. The right. Well, both one is in the center, snowmess village, and then the other is in the Timber Mill Comprehensive Sign Plan. Both we've notified that they were noncompliant with the existing existing comprehensive sign plan but we've agreed to not continue enforcement actions to allow them to submit a new comprehensive sign plan and then they have to one that sign plan needs to accommodate the signs that are there needs to include that and then if that is approved we would not enforce. If it's not approved. Is ball and parcel gate weight those are both remarrow? Yes, I believe so. So is that going to be condensed combined to one plan or if it's going to come back still is two different. That would be up to, we'll see, they've got 30 days, the owner. What is the approval process would go to the planning commission and then come to us? Correct. Yeah. So basically the only portion or plan that just is not coming back to us is the Weston right now. Correct. At this point. That's correct. point. No, I got it. Yes. Okay, questions. I do have pictures of the mall. If you want to look at it. I think pictures are the way. It would be helpful for you to kind of walk through, I think, so that we have a better understanding. So with this was so much more comprehensive than I had ever imagined. I was kind of assuming it was a handful of maybe a couple of pages worth of identifiable proof and you know not approved sign usage and this is so much more intense that I think it would be really helpful for you to kind of walk us through. So we have a better understanding of so we don't have to imagine what we would be out of control. I mean I went up and tried to take photos of everything but it was still hard for me to get my head around what is complying and what's not. Let me, I thought I was joined. And it's funny because I went back through the history of where the signage code started and it was one paragraph. It was the sign code. So, got them a long way. Yeah, or not. I know. Yeah. So, as you saw with the sign code and then the different comprehensive sign plans, I would have to know measurements and everything to determine strict compliance. But if you read like the materials that are in the comprehensive sign plan, some of these say two-inch wood materials, some of them say two-inch redwood kiln dried materials. They are... Then look like that's... This is an antiquated...... Gold lettering. But in general, these are the types of size-wise... Signs that are... That I'd say would be permitted, but they don't meet some of the material requirements. Some of them do, but the size requirements are met. So you can see these are all fairly small signs. I'd say each one of them is less than the six square feet, which is typical within the copper and the sine plants. Some of them say four square feet for the lower level, six square feet for the upper level. That's why I say I'm going to be hesitant to answer any specific question without going to the regulations themselves. But I was asked when we were out there, well there's no signs that are compliant. There are many signs that are compliant or close to it. And I'd say all of these sort of what you've, you know,'ve you know This is the stew pot which I think is the one that is general is definitely compliant. It's an original. Yeah Yeah, which is so cool Part of what we run into when I was out there talking with the folks a Lot of people have these sandwich ward signs, including the town. They are the sandwich ward signs. Are they allowed or not allowed? That's a tricky question. They are what I would consider temporary signs if approved by the owner and stamped with a date for approval only for a period of seven days. Okay. but they're out there. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. Every night. the owner and stamped with a date for approval only for a period of seven days. Okay. But they're out there. Every day. Every day. Every day. Every soon they're getting them approved every week. I'm assuming. Add that to our meetings. Again, this is one, you know, but I'd say is generally compliant. Second level, they get a little bit more square footage, so they have some more signs down below. Generally, these wall signs are, I would say, generally compliant based upon their size because, again, six square feet is typical, and I would say none of these, and without knowing the exact dimensions, exceed six square feet Flags are not regulated. These are one signs in question. These are plastic signs that have come up. The other thing is that every sign requires a permit. These did not have a permit. But this is where we are now. I mean, don't want to pick on anybody, but that's a great example of particularly one on the left is so inappropriate. It looks like it's a cheap old diner from the 70s or something. And it's sort of an extraordinary exaggeration of the code. What's that? Exactly. It doesn't meet the code. That's the one to spark the enforcement. I know, I know it does. I just want to reinforce that. But I have a... Do you mean the owner of the mall completely disagrees and thinks it's beautiful? I know, I know. Well, that's... So that's why I... That sort of points out the issue. Is it beautiful? That sort of points out the issue. It's beautiful. Well, yes. Yes. But I think that he all I talked to him today. I mean, he has, because it's an upstairs restaurant, and unlike El Pogio or the tavern that also has a back door, facing Albert. Is that Albert, Lane? Lailie Albert, yes. That this doesn't, and this is what's drawing people into the restaurant and you know He's also very in favor of preservation and character and all these things and I think up until this point No one's really ever said anything to me about the signs and the mall that currently exists But this seemed very different than anything else that was there. This one was very different and we did we did get a complaint I mean, and I did mention that to the owner that this was very different and we had a disagreement on that. And I also would say I mean part of the issue is if some businesses are adhering to the code and others are not then that's what really creates more of an issue. And that might be it. Yeah, and just that creeping, like, slowly changing, you know, as each sign gets a little further from the code, then the next one gets a little bigger, a little different, and pretty soon we've lost that intention of having a sign in. And the comment is, well, look over here and look at these window signs and look at these sandwich board signs. There's a little bit of uncertainty on how, like a bar sign that can be seen behind the window should be regulated. So they're pointing out some of these neon signs. But neon signs in the comprehensive sign plan, it's silent on neon signs. In our general sign code, it says neon signs are not permitted. So which, which prevailed? The comprehensive sign plan in that area. Again, another sign that I would say is compliant. It does allow for menu signs. I'd say this is what I would say is a typical menu sign that is permitted. There's another one that Venga Venga has. Again, this is just more signs that I'd say are in compliance or very close to being in compliance. This is where we run into the, I'd say this is more than 10% of the window covered by window signage. Yeah. Yeah. So, when we're out there, they point to, well, and this is fairly recent. And 10% is what is in the comprehensive sign plan. And this is pretty much, I don't know what that is, but much more than 10%. 90. And then this is one which I think this might have been a directory sign. I don't know somebody has been here longer. It was. It was. And I think then Venga Venga took it over as a menu and I'd say this has become more of a sign. This is their menu board. And then these two sides have exceeded the sign code or what I would say is a typical menu board. Next, I think I've, and then this is just another one of which I'd say is generally compliant with the code. I don't know materials and didn't measure the wood and all of that, but it's been up there for a while. And then some awning signs, which I'd say are generally compliant without knowing the measurement of the letters, but it's basically depending on where you're at. There are larger signs, larger lettering that's allowed on the second level, so there is a provision within all of these codes that allow for larger signs on the second level or additional signs if you have more than 30 linear square feet of building frontage. So there are provisions in the code that do allow for additional signs or larger lettering on the second floor or for larger frontages. I would say in general from walking it, it's the window signs that are not compliant. I didn't take a lot from the gateway, but if you go into fuel and the liquor store and all of those, there's a lot of window signs. You know, I think that's as to, but it should, we should have one consistent regulation that helps both the businesses, the owners and staff so we don't have a disagreement when we try to go out and enforce the codes. And the whole reason why you have a sign code or a comprehensive sign code is to get some aesthetic consistency. So you know there was an intent. So it's pleasing when you're, it's pleasing. It's all an aesthetic thing. And so if we don't enforce it, it all just sort of falls apart. Well, and I feel like there's then, it's easy to say, oh well, they're signed as big. We need, to. So it's sort of. It's that creeping competition on us that can start with signs, getting bigger, and the same size and the same material. Everybody's sort of on the same thing. Or at least comply with the regulations of the code, which allows different sizes of things, but it has some consistency written into it. So I think we've been fairly generous with, allowing the mall owners to try and come into compliance and provide something that can be debated and talked about. We're not following the co-compliance procedures and sending anybody to court, which that set off to. But I mean in addition to just not being in compliance with the sign code, I mean if you didn't get a permit like Rock Island did, that's a whole other story. We attempted as far back in October and December to ask Rock Island to go back to the owner and work with the comprehensive sign plan. Yeah, and I will point out too at the timber mill where the Vanga, Vanga sign is. It's not only on that side that's facing in them all. It's also on the other side. So when you're on the chairlift, like it's right there, in yellow. It's very visible. And on maybe you could write the codes that on different frontages you could have a sign. That's up to, but we need to again have that in the code that would be helpful. Okay. That's so helpful. The pictures were. Yeah. It was a good day too. It was a beautiful blue sky behind it. Yeah. I had, you know, things in my head, but it's not quite the same. Yeah. Well, and sometimes there are so many different signs that you don't always notice. Like, I walked right past the Rock Island, the Marquis sign, and didn't notice it. And then when someone says, like, I went back and noticed it, and only been up for a couple of days. But still. I mean, and that's a particularly noticeable sign because if you sit in that chair, that's the selfie chair, you know, and you photo, it's now the full impression of the mall is that. And I just noticed some kids up there today, their parents taking photos of them on the chair. So I think there is a real meaningful rationale behind enforcing some of the sign code. And if we have it, we should enforce it. And if we want to reconsider some of it, then that's something else to talk about. I think, you know, for me personally, I walk around, say in a cityscape, and I'm noticing more and more of these full window treatments that are just becoming almost billboard sides window treatments, and you pointed out that's no longer the 10%. I think there's something to that. I think we should be evaluating and saying, do we want every window on the ground level to be able to function like a billboard or have a full menu displayed in a permanent way in a window? I think that really changes the character. And I'm all for vibrancy, I think, you know, the sign that's popped up in the sandwich boards, it really does add to the flavor of vibrancy too, but the full window treatments, I think that it changes, you wonder, is it vacant behind there? What's behind there? It just doesn't feel as activated because it's just a bill board now. And the one where the pavilion is with the, you know, the ski co symbol, I mean, it's not a decal. I mean, it's like mesh, I've seen it because I go where I pass there all the time. It kind of looks like a window shade that has something that's... Where you can see through it from the inside. Are you can see out from the inside? Yeah. So it's a full treatment. Yeah. The gorsuch, they work with us on a sign permit. And their signs, I think, are very tasteful. They did, if you see that there's sort of the trees. There's been Jews. We did work with them on that and said, there's not how many signage on it. It doesn't advertise anything that that's just a window covering. On the upper level, it's unclear. It's like a mountain scape. And it seems more like a percentage of the window. And that looks tasteful. It's kind of like hiding almost what you wouldn't want to see, but there's activation behind it. So you can tell there's a business. It's not just a facade. So we, they did work with us on that and we did come to an agreement that as long as it doesn't advertise and you know, that just the nice, the trees are the artwork. So I kind of segregated it into artwork versus advertising on the windows. Although if you've gone through the windows there's many windows that are, let's say, are more than 10%. Base Village in particular is starting to become. And Base Village has its own comprehensive sign plan as well. And part in businesses they go around town and from when they pointed out the marquee sign at the gas station, that's allowed. By the general sign code, it's not allowed in your comprehensive sign. Interesting. Thank you. Any other questions? I mean, so what you're saying is, is they're going to come back with their new sign plans. That's what we've asked for, yes. Okay. So stay tuned. Stay tuned. Okay. Any other questions in the meantime? I mean, I think again, when we're just looking at all of that, it would be helpful perhaps to have maybe a vision for it. And I think that small town activated family friendly. Those are good things to kind of keep in mind. But that small town character, to keep the mall feeling like it's a quaint space and not a downtown city escape. So, when we're looking at that, it's important to have some higher level vision in mind. Yeah, and I think what's happening all over the world really but particularly in tourist places is things start to look all the same because they use the same, you know, techniques for what they want their science to look like and so to try to keep snowmess looking more like you know it always has I think is is a pretty good idea to try to keep it quite in small town and not looking like the rest of the world. Well thank you thank you for pointing out this information and we will stay tuned for municipal sign code 102. We passed. Yeah. It's going to be at 300 level class when these comes back. It's probably not going to be bad. Thank you. Thank so much. Next up, we're going to talk about the Workforce Housing Program, and we have Betsy and Terry, Casey. Is that all I want to come up? Or I don't know if Betsy just wants to come up. It's up to you. It's the Betsy Show. I don't want to. I don't want it to be the Betsy Show. Yes't want it to be the vets. I don't want it to be the vets. I don't want it to be the vets. I don't want it to be the vets. I don't want it to be the vets. I don't want it to be the vets. I don't want it to be the vets. I don't want it to be the vets. This is going to be 1-0. Yes, this is 1-1-0-2-1-0-3. Yeah, help housing 1-0-3. We're here. We're just going to start to give everything a- It's like a master's course maybe in housing. Let's see. I think this is going like a crash course. Yes. We're here. We're just gonna start to give everything. It's like a master's course, maybe, in housing. Let's see. I think that this is going like a crash course, yes. Well, good evening. And I do wanna introduce, again, I know you know Terry Everest, who's our assistant director, and Casey Hornberg, who is our operations and compliance manager. Casey came on back in September, October. Yeah, it was in October. Yeah. And he is a lifelong resident of, oops, The Ruinkefork Valley, an upper Ruinkefork Valley. That's a bit. So you had, I did have, you asked several weeks ago for an opportunity to talk more about our Workforce Housing Program and I wasn't really sure exactly where to focus on everything, so I kind of focused on everything. And thought that maybe we could have a conversation about areas that you're particularly interested or you want to know more about. And I'm hoping that among the three of us, we can probably answer pretty much any question you might have. But I did prepare a PowerPoint to hit some of the high points and maybe not go so deeply into some areas but give you a little bit more detail on others. So, you know, with your permission, I'll just kind of run through some of the highlights of our program. This particular one, this is just sort of how we think about what we do, what we care about workforce housing, both as an economic development tool by supporting our workforce, but also as a way to build community. And some of the reasons, obviously, I know that you know a lot of this and we think about it, but we think about it all the time. You know, it's it's to attract and retain a viable workforce, which is also directly related to the success of our community and our resort. Also, to reduce the environmental impacts of people coming up Valley, which have gotten as a person who drives from mid-valid up valley every day, it's just gotten worse and worse. But it also, and we try to hold both of these things at the same time. Sometimes they're in conflict, most of the time not, is that our housing helps to build a vibrant community through having a diversity of people, family types, incomes, just to really have a community that represents the vibrancy that is no mass village and always has been, frankly, but it's been getting more difficult over time because of the market issues. I think it also builds community loyalty. When people live here for their whole adult lives, I think that they are more active participants. They're more likely to come to council meetings. They're more likely to be there at town clean updates. It's they we love our community when especially when we live here. And the other thing I'll just mention, there's a lot of research that I'd be happy to provide to you if you're interested, but there are better health and education outcomes when people have stable housing. The rising cost of housing in our valley is gives a lot of people some instability and uncertainty about where they're going to live, especially, I think if their housing is connected to their job, it's just, it just doesn't, it's not a, they can't count on always living there. And when people do have affordable stable housing, it's better for them, their children, there's a lot of mental health outcomes, but even physical health outcomes from the stress of, you know, or the lack of stress if they have stable housing. So it's a pretty interesting and not to mention that parents have a lot more time with their children when they live closer to where they work. Some of these trends I've talked to you guys about this all the time, but these four trends in our upper valley, particularly of combined, to make housing out of reach for nearly anyone who is working in our workforce. One is there's been a lot of population and income growth over the last bunch of years and especially since the pandemic. There's those forces have really changed. At the same time, there's limited land and inventory of housing, limited likely development, especially in snowmats village. Or something like 98% built out, I think I can't remember if Davis here you'd know, but it's just a real big pressure on their land. Second homeowners and short-term renters in the last 10 to 15 years, short-term renters, rentals especially, have taken away what might have been some naturally occurring, affordable housing, people's second homes, they might have rented, or they're 80 years, they might have rented to the workforce, now go to short-term rentals, much more so. And the cost of construction, which you've seen with the draw side is just unbelievable. So our overarching goal, and I'm not sure how long this goal has been in place, certainly as long as I've been here, but maybe as long as Terry has been here too. That's good. Is expanding housing choice and affordability with a goal, an objective goal of housing 60% of our workforce? I think, I personally think that's the right goal. I think it's a great goal. We're probably at about a little over 40% currently, maybe up to 45, depending on how you count some of the seasonal and that's the housing that's out there. The idea is that not everybody will want to live here, but certainly a lot of them will. And so the 60% is something I've been working on since I got here. It's actually one of the reasons I wanted to come here is that the town had actually established a goal. And most municipalities are nowhere near thinking like this town is. So it's very, you know, it's very bold. And that's why I put a really bold picture there, and bold colors. So we sort of work toward that 60% goal in four main ways. One is through housing development, like the draw site and what we're doing. One is through our mitigation housing that puts in a requirement on businesses coming to town to mitigate 60% of the housing they create. The third way that has been more, we've been more active in in recent years is acquiring and preserving housing. Things like the 250 carriageway, Green Goddess, and Snowmass Inn, and some other things where we're looking at, that there's housing, those are units that would otherwise be lost to high-end development and then regional initiatives like the West Mountain Regional Housing Coalition. That's it, just for the mitigation it's not so much on businesses it's on developers. Right, some developers. Right, that's a better way to say it. And actually, okay, so the history of our program, we were formed in 1979, that was a really long time ago, it was again really forward thinking in a resort to create, at that time it was a housing authority, it was very shortly thereafter that it was brought into the town as an office of the town. Again another thing for what it's worth that attracted me to working here was that municipality looked at housing as a core function of what it needed to think about. In that time, in the time since 1979, we have developed and now own and manage 310 rental apartments in nine different properties. 198 deed restricted for sale units, some of which are kind of minions in townhouses, some are single family detached homes. And then we also get very active when these developers come in to partner with them and oversee the mitigation housing that comes out of there to make sure that they're kind of doing their fair share. These are just the properties. I didn't really lift these in the right up, but I thought you would maybe want to see the ones that I forgot to add faraway housing, which is part of our rental portfolio. Well, I list sat in the acquisition part. But these are the ones we've developed and own ourselves on the left side, brush creek creek side, palisade mountain view one and two, original and two, and the village north. And then on the deedry stricte, these are the homes that we manage deedry strictions on, some of which we've developed, some were mitigation, but we manage those all fall in our permanent moderate housing program that you all, most of you all looked at in great depth last year. This is the mitigation requirement just to remind you again and we, the developers in our regulations require developers accommodate 60% of new employees that they generate by development. Things like the expansion of the ULROF and the L- what is the L- Camp restaurant? Those are things that we sort of look at. What are the jobs that come out of that? the Lynn- The Lynn Brick cabin. Yeah. The Lynn Brick cabin, thank you. That was the other one. Those are the current ones. But these kind of come up all the time. And to a greater or lesser extent, the developer has four options in the regulations they can do. The one we prefer, they kind of go from left to right in terms of our preference. I think our greatest preference and what's happened historically is the developer builds the housing themselves and transfers it to the town. Either rental or it's as a deed restrict, as oversight on deed restriction. It's in Claire Meadows I think was that way. There's a number that have been that way. Or they build the units and they sell or rent them to qualified employees. That's happened more often recently. Like the limelight has some rental units. The enclave is developed. Some rental and some for sale is part of their mitigation. And they manage that, but we oversee the deed restriction and make sure that they comply with it. Can I ask you a question on that? When was this written and last updated? The main, the permanent moderate housing regulations, the de-restrictive program is overseen by regulations that were most recently updated last year. We had a long process on the council last year. I'm so sorry. I meant the 60%. The 60%. Yeah. That's been in the- 60% decades old and there's history that goes back and forth at a one point. It was lower than it got to be 100% at one point and then it got went back to 60%. I know it's through base village, it was debated back and forth with the numbers should be and depending on where you sat on that, it's where that number got to be and different councils. But it's been of this at least for 15 years or longer. Okay. Probably closer to 20. Sometimes developers also give us land for development. That was what the draw site was actually once upon a time. And the lease, our lease favorite, but is kind of growing because of the lack of available land, is this idea of cash and lieu. And I think it makes much more sense for a small development where there you know throws off maybe one unit and they don't have a place to put it. Mitigate some of the examples these are the main examples of mitigation housing units. Club Commons 4 which is actually we manage the waiting list for that property but down in Club of Commons, one of the buildings, Building 4, is available for permanent year round residents. And we do manage the waiting list for that, although the ski co-manages, the actual leases, and the people go there. Faraway housing was part of the Timbers Club Development Mitigation Capital Peak Lodge. There's a set aside of a few units of those units for affordable. Same thing with Country Club Town Homes. They set aside five of those units as de-restricted when it was built and affordable. The viceroy and all throughout base village, there are a number of mitigation units on that site and most recently the enclave that has about The housing was done originally for base village That was that was also a mitigation development. I didn't. Well, I just try to understand. Yes, we if you go back to the other list, who have some of these, I listed the ones were that are 100% restricted that we manage, but that was Sinclair. Metas was a mitigation Yeah. A mitigation at that time. Daily town homes not. Daily town, there it is. That was town, OK. Club comments was for baseball. Club comments was. Do we manage Sinclair Meadows? We do. Oh, we do. It's ownership, but it's de-restricted and we manage all the sales of that. I don't realize that. Sorry, Betsy, it's all ownership. There's no rentals. Correct. That's Singularia. Thank you. Some of the acquisition things that we've done, they sort of add incrementally to our portfolio. But all together, I think the ones that we've acquired come out to about 62 if you add together 250 carriageway, the Greenghetto snowmess in, which is 39 units that we acquired, far away apartments. We just closed on that this year. That's eight more. And then we've acquired a couple condominiums, the two for the willows, and then the one that was the de-restricted country club townhomesomes that were going to acquire ourselves and make it available. And so for these, when you say preservation, you're meaning like they were probably people lived there and were workers in our village, but it could have then changed over. There was no deed restriction or other mechanism to keep them affordable. So 250 carriageway was for sale for somebody to develop for condos. And Snowmass Inn was for sale with the mountain Shalay for a while. They were owned by related and they were on the market for quite a while with the thought of doing something very high in there. And so we acquired them because they had both the green ghetto and snowmessin were already being used by people who were just like people in our housing, people worked in the village, people who didn't have a lot of money. MSmass in was being, was more seasonal, but a lot of master leases from village like the Viceroy and the View Line and, you know, so these really were our people. Same thing with far away that was Tim always supposed to be Timberline. Well, I mean, you remember that whole story. There was, they had their deed restriction removed, but it was built as mitigation. Oh, for the timber. Housing. At the timber's club. Timbers club, sorry, timber's club. Yeah. And so that was a preservation because it could very easily have gone into the market. There. And they had their deed restriction removed by the courts. Correct. It wasn't by anybody else. There was a lawsuit. They won a lawsuit. It's a long story, but we decided to preserve it this way with the school district. By the way, we have the right of first refusal of the school district everyone wants to sell. That was something we wanted to have in there. Oh, we got it. Some of the regional initiatives I've talked to you all about these fairly recently. But it's probably the primary partnership that we're involved in right now is with the West Mountain Regional Housing Coalition that has representation from each municipality in the valley, as well as pick in in Eagle counties and Garfield County, too. The primary program that they've done is this Good Deeds Bydown program, which has been very successful and is closing on their eighth loan right now, the purchase of a deed restriction. Some of the things that we're also looking at, we have a strategic plan for next planning mission, or what do you call it, session next week. Some of the things we're looking at, we have a strategic plan for next planning mission or what do you call it session next week. Some of the things we're looking at is possibly a rental assistance program to help people in the private market come up with the money you need to for a first-last-in security deposit can be 15 grand depending on what you're running. Possibly hiring a housing navigator which I think is kind of a brilliant idea. There's so many very little, niggly housing opportunities out there, and everyone has different requirements, and everyone is hard to learn and understand, so we thought maybe that would be a great job for someone to come in who can really understand what's out there and help people help an individual come into the valley to navigate and try to get in their best position to get something that's out there. We're also looking at possible land bank and things down the road, but there's a lot of attention to what they're doing right now, which is great. Habitat, we talked about that L3 program, that condominium priority, I think there will be other opportunities to partner with them there in a bit of a transition right now. Has anyone taken up? No, as far as I know not yet. Oh, our L3 one. We bought two. We had two interested, one decided not two and the other, I think, is going ahead with it. Somebody in public works. Yep, it was good. What is L3? That was that apartment building that they're converting into kind of Miniums down in West Glenwood. I know, okay. Yeah. And reminding two of what that's, that's ownership. That would be ownership. They're converting it. of individuals that might be moving in would own that. Yeah, because we did the priority on to them. And they have down payment assistance. ownership that would be ownership they're converting it so there's so individuals that might be moving in would own that yes because we did the priority on and they have they have down payment assistance and good deals on mortgages and you know and I I'd be I think Habitat's doing a lot of interesting things almost all down valley but it's still in the mix right so it's housing there may be other opportunities going forward picking county has reached out to us to meet with them in a couple of weeks to talk about, they have this big tax revenue, this predictable revenue, and they're looking for partners, and we have ideas, and I think that could be a really great new resource. School District, you're aware we've partnered with them on the faraway project. They also, the SWillows condominiums, they've purchased a couple of those. So, you know, they're kind of our partners and we do different things, but we are in communication with each other all the time. Even Colorado Mountain College is interested in potential partnerships down the road if we we can find something that's a good fit, they're part of the West Mountain Housing Coalition too. It's worth it. They're the only non-minus pali that is in it. And then I just wanted to list this because I often forget about it, Terry. Thank you for reminding me that there's also a lot of other things, this might be the primary list, but Fairway 3 is an ownership project that was developed by APCHO, that's here in town. The school district has that teacher housing with the big ABC numbers on it. I always think of that, it's like, it's like you learn your ABCs and live there. So I'm not sure how many units are there, but that's an affordable project, although just so, you know, they're only allowed to live there for a certain amount of time, and then they have to find something else. So there's always kind of pressure on that one. Water and sand built five units. They're beautiful if you haven't seen them. And their renting, their first priority is to their employees. But they're, I think, one of our police officers lives down there. And so that's been a really cool thing that they did. Club Commons obviously has lots of seasonal housing. And then a lot of these businesses have a few units. with timberwood, Timberline, Mountain Shalay, Pocollotti, Woodrun, Five, the existing divide housing, Anderson Ranch, all have some employee housing as part of their homes. Unsite. Unsite. Up for all those are on site. And some of them do master lease from us. I didn't really get into the master least thing, but we, a number of our rental units, the 310, are master least over at, there's 18, I believe, over at Creekside, and about a third to a court, about a third of the Snowmass Inn units, businesses also master least. So a business has a master lease and they run into their employees? Right, so like tasters or blazing adventures rents a unit from us and then they make it available for their employees. So how many did you say a creek say? There's 18 at Creekside. Terry can probably speak more to it. My understanding is it was a time in our history when we didn't have the demand that we have now and maybe during the 2008, 2009 downturn. And so that I think it was a way to partner with businesses more actively. And it was like a win-win. They got units that they could guarantee for their employees and we were able to lease them up without any trouble. And what happens if they don't need them? They will return them to us. I mean they've in the seven years I've been here I think there's two that have come back to us and we maintain a list. But what we try to do, and this is like way in the weeds, but what we try to do is find somebody who's a local business who doesn't already have one, right? So our list, most of the people on our list, I mean, you know, view line would take as many as they could get, but they've got a couple, one or two. And so we would look to somebody who doesn't currently have them like Sundance or, you know, actually Sundance has one now. That was one of the more recent ones. So between Creekside and Snowmass Inn, how many different entities have master leases? You don't have to give exact. 13, then Creekside and then. I believe there's about maybe eight or nine businesses that's no mess in 13 businesses in the Creek side units. It's 20 total. Yeah about 20. And it's a it's a mix but it's a you know there's I would say there's the most of them are sort of the mom and pops. And sorry how many businesses are there that have those? How many different businesses have 20? About 20. Oh 20 businesses not 20 units. Right. There's eaves and mass releases that creakside. God damn. And would you say like a third? So we have about a semester. Oh 10, 11? Maybe 11, maybe 11, maybe over there. And so we're most of those, the original ones that were there when we purchased it. Yeah. We tried to grandfather people and we decided that we really wanted to continue to offer that, but not for all of them. So the only ones we didn't grant, the only ones that on turnover, we took them back where they're wrapped in ones, frankly because they weren't snowmess village employees. So the ones that were, all the rest of them were village employees. In a raft I think maybe as one left or two left, yeah. And when they leave, that'll be it. And you guys have the two come back to you, but have the, there been businesses that would like more? Yeah. Oh, certainly. Yeah. New business too, that they don't have a business unit. So, yeah. We definitely have interest for sure. Yeah, they're very, they're, they're very popular, I think. And then what we try to do is when, like, let's say the view line, which used to be the western, and used to be the silvertry, and, you know, it's, but it's the same people there. We do sort of continue it. And I'm thinking like, what's the one with the bad sign? What the sign you didn't like. Rock Island. Yeah, Rock Island, that was Big House. And we let them take over the Big House leads. That kind of thing, we try to, you know, because it's often just the same people. And they, you know, and what's hard about master leasing is if you ever lose your job, you lose your housing too. And that's a pretty big, you know, That's a pretty tough thing for people. So it's interesting, the businesses want the unit, but most of for people. So most, it's interesting, the businesses want the unit but most of the people would rather rent directly from us so that they can, say, you know, preserve their housing. So in Creexide, how many about how many units are master leases? 18. 18 units. Creexide. That's not. I was thinking there were 18 master leases and there are also only 18 units that are masterlies 18 units 13 businesses you said right okay yeah and then snowmesson was nine or 10 units in eight or nine businesses I think it's probably not that many because a lot of them five I didn't count a we didn't that they sure got here But it's just a general maybe five businesses Successful that is that master oh Maybe five businesses and Creek set in snow mess in and Creek sides the 13 Terry would know So we team total Rob playing and with the master least are those ever seasonal or are they they have to meet the criteria of They have round full time? Yep we don't do seasonal. We have one little exception to seasonal and that's for bus drivers for us, our bus drivers over at Snowmesson and that is not mass released. They wheelies directly to them but it's kind of we try to be able to provide some housing for them. And so Club Commons is the only seasonal. In town, right? I think a lot of these business owned ones are also seasonal. Some are seasonal, OK. Yep. Yep. If really this I just say when we go to the draw site, this masterlies concept is one we want to explore further that we think is a good opportunity to kind of have the council's goal of supporting local businesses and it's something that's worked well that we think we could expand over here. But details to come. It's been pretty successful. There's some businesses that really don't like being a landlord too. There's been, with there's been some bumpiness with landlords who are businesses will come in and be like, take it back. I can't. It's a whole thing to be a property manager and to make sure people, and they fight. it's a lot of it is roommate situations and they, you know, and they're moving people in and out. But for the most part, it's been great. We have Anderson Ranch, I'm trying to think of all the businesses we have, but, you know, challenge has been, has a unit. So it's not even just, it's not even just the commercial businesses, it's nonprofits, it's have a few of them too. We really have tried to spread it around over the years. So the qualifications, you know, this I can't emphasize these three things strongly enough because it really drives our program. Employment has to be full-time year-round and we define year-round as eight months out of the year, 1400 hours, that's, and the reason for that is that 1400 hours is full-time work for eight months out of the year. Because of our shoulder seasons, people can't really continue work, they can't work 12 months out of the year, most people in for the resort. And honestly, that's not the time that you go and get a second job in some other town because everything's closed in the upper village. So that has, that's worked really well. I think we also have a requirement because a lot of people have multiple jobs that 80% of their income and minimum be earned in snowmess village. They need to be in snowmess village at entry. It's theoretically possible that we would work our way through our 270-odd people on our list to get to somebody who works in Picking County because that's the next priority down. I don't know that we've ever done it except during the recession, maybe. 2008 and 2009. So I don't see that happening. Once they move in, they are able to change jobs. But they must work in Picking County. For an employee, not just working in Picking County, but work for an employer that serves Picking County. So that's, I mean, that's a more complicated thing to verify than you can imagine. That's why Casey's here. But it's, you know, because some people are self-employed, and some businesses, you know, we had a guy, this is just an example. We had a guy who worked for SkiCo, but down in Basalt in Edel County. And we had to, he had to move, you know, and to like physically move where he worked because they have to both be located in snowmess village, let's say for snowmess village or Picking County, and the business that needs to be, how it needs to be located here serving here So somebody working remotely for a bank in New York doesn't qualify architects don't count architects are one Architects, I mean some architects, you know, maybe if you're the admin at the architecture firm That's in the offices or something that's okay because call. You know, you're, but it's tough. We have to make judgment calls a lot. And if you're a property manager, you have to show us your list of clients. And are they here? And we really go through all that. On the rental side, we don't have income requirements because we've honestly, no one who, this is the way I say it, anyway, no one who needs to work for a living can afford to live in a rental anywhere near the upper valley. You know, the median rental is for a two-bedroom, it's like $7,500 a month and you know, if you, it's just not, there's no need. On the deed restricted purchase, so we do have income and asset requirements. We don't use categories like you might be familiar with at APCHA, which they have like bands, but what we do is set a maximum that's really based on the sale price to make sure that they can afford it. They have enough income to afford it, but not considerably more than what they might need to buy it. I'm going back to rental. So there's no maximum income for rental. Somebody could be making a ton of money, but they meet all the requirements of working here and all that and all that and they can get on the list. Yep and they can and honestly we've never had anyone abuse that I can't be I mean our housing is great and we love it and it's beautiful but if you're making a ton of money you're gonna want a bigger place you're gonna want a yard you're gonna want some you know it's it's it's, I, one of the pieces of information I gave you is we actually went back and looked at what everyone earned, you know, we, because we get that compliance information, we don't track it and we tell people we, we, we, we would only aggregate it. The highest, the highest income earner and there was only one, I think, that was over $100,000 and it was just over. It was somebody who worked at Kenichi as a manager. So it's really not abused. What is much more common is people have very low incomes and they struggle to have very low incomes and struggle to afford. Even work in 1400 hours. Can I ask about that asset so you could own property? You can't own property on in and rents. You cannot so there is there's no income, but there are asset No requirements. It's you you cannot own any housing or rent any other housing in the Rohingt fork drainage So. So that's everywhere in the Rohingya Fork Valley down to which rent. Parachute. And no name? Parachute and no name. So you can't own anything in there or rent anything else in there. If you had, you know, in theory, if you wanted to buy a retirement home in Wisconsin or something at some point, we don't really track that. But not anything in this area. Because if you can afford to, then that's where you should live. Same thing with the deed restricted. It's, we do look at the total assets though, and anything that they own, if it's in Wisconsin, is added into their asset calculation. OK. OK. The other thing we do, and this is really kind of a recent addition, and we've always done compliance. But a lot of it has been what Joe Kaffee, my predecessor, called an honest-based system. And it worked because he knew everybody, right? And he knew if people worked in the village, he knew if they were living large, that kind of stuff. And that just, we're just not in that world anymore. It's way too competitive, the housing situation. So a couple years ago, we added an operations and compliance manager, that's Casey now. And we look at both, we look at 100% of the people who live in our housing and the rental and the ownership side. Ownership, we look at every two years and rentals is every year, at least, renewal time. What are you reviewing on the ownership side? Same stuff. We look at, it's a little harder to get it from them, but we look at income. We don't look at income to qualify their income. So it would be clear. All we really want to qualify for both renters and owners is that they work full time in Picking County. OK, then they're in Picking County. Yes. And there's very few ways to get that. Checkstubs is one way. But that has income on it. Tax returns is one way that has income on it. Tax returns, W2s are particularly good and they don't always give the hours but if it's nothing come you can sort of assume that they're working enough hours. Check steps are really the best because they usually have a year to date hours and then if they're self-employed we look at well we look at their business tax returns and we also they give us a list of clients and they also we're asking them to track their hours throughout the year. You know, and we do sort of accept it, right, because you got to accept something. But can people knock themselves out of a deed restricted unit with too many assets or? No. Okay. No. Once they qualify and they win the lottery and move in, we really don't limit their, the way we like to look at it is, you know, you don't want to disincentivize people to be successful. And, you know, we want to, and maybe they're, and I think we believe, although it's more of a belief than we've investigated completely, but if people make enough money, they're going to want to buy something that's not de-restricted because they appreciate gap there. Well, there is a big gap there. And again, we recognize that. And so I think when the program was first designed, there was a thought that it was a continuum. And you'd rent for a while, and then you'd go into the lottery and you'd own maybe a condo, and then go to a single family home, and eventually be able to buy a four bedroom in blue light or something. And that happened for a lot of people. I'm sorry, I just described you. I just described her. But somewhere before I came here, but not much before that really, I think I'm not sure what all the forces were that changed that, but it's such a, there's so much wealth in the real estate market here that it, that there's a big gap between your $600,000 crossings at Horse Ranch House and the next place you can go. And so people do stay, and that's one of the challenges of the program is there's not a lot of turnover. And again, are we a community or are we workforce? We're both. You don't want to push people out because they're successful. You don't want to necessarily push them out before they're ready, but you kind of want turnover. So we, and when we talked about the regulations last year, it was actually almost a year-long conversation. We talked a lot about how do we incentivize people to move on and I think at the end of the day, you know, we just believe that they'll get to the point where, you know, they're ready for something else. We do have some incentive for downsizing that we've put in, no one's taking advantage of it. You know, so it, I think what we need is more. Honestly, I mean, this, you won't get me to say anything else, of course, but we need more because then people have choices of places they can go that aren't just out of the valley. But when you say that, you mean more of all types of housing? I think we need more of all types at all different income levels. I mean, we did was coffee place and those ranged in sale, priced from 500,000 to 820,000. And everyone thought that that was going to be insane. Nobody's going to pay that much. We had 75 applicants for 15 units. And the interest rates were lower then. So your money went a lot further. But there's people, and a lot of those are people who own their own businesses, or who, I mean, they met the income and asset limits, but property managers and restaurant owners, and that kind of in town. Those are all snowmess village. So, yeah. And what we've also done with our compliance program just to try to have more of a softer approach because we hadn't really done such intensive compliance before is we do give people a grace period to come into compliance. I think less of a grace period, maybe this year than we had last year. If it's somebody who's done it two years in a row, they don't really get a great period. But if it's a lot of times people have things that happen. They have an injury, an illness, a hospitalization. They went back to take care of their sick mom, a lot of divorce, different things that we really try to accommodate that and say, okay, but next year we're going to be looking for $1400. We don't have a lot that don't, Casey probably know how many? Yeah, out of the total, I think this year there's 31 total out of all of our renters that didn't reach the 1400 for some of those reasons that Betsy described. and of those six were the repeat offenders who are in the process of moving out. So, total of 25 who have agreed to reach the 1400 hours and if not this next coming year then their plan would be to move out as well. And given them that amount of notice actually we don't get much argument from them when they're a repeat. It's like, okay, that's it. And we didn't get too much pushback. So. Can I ask about compliance again with deed restricted? So once you're in, your income is no longer. But how about assets? No. We can own property. Except for property ownership in the Roaring Fork drainage. But you can own property in another country. So you can own as much property as long as it's not in the rowing fork district. I mean it's or drainage, correct. I mean I think what we don't want to, what we don't do is sort of get deeply into how they invest whatever money they make, some invest in real estate, some invest in the market. People have other investments. The thought is that we want to keep them living here because they're part of working in the community. The other thing is that to remember is we really limit their appreciation on their homes. We limit it to 3% per year or the CPI, whichever's us less. So one of the things when people don't like, you know, they get upset about that because of what's happened in our valley with market values, we'll often say, well, invest, you know, that's for other investments. This housing is not investment. It's a home. It's a nest. It's not a nest egg, you know, that kind of thing. But of thing but then that's kind I mean it could be encouraging second home ownership in another location as an asset it could it could it encourage them I mean people can build wealth after they move into the home and they can invest it in lots of different ways including real estate and they want to move and retire there, so it'll open up their home if that's what they do. I want to recently did a quick study and looked at if the increase of housing in our area has compared to the increase of the Dow Jones the same period of time. It was about the same multiplier. So if you had an extra $1,000 put in the stock market, it's just put in a housing or whatever. If you want to get a return like a T-Bill, that's what will give you. If you want more than that, look at other kinds of investments. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And sometimes people do purchase a retirement home, you know, a home that they expect to retire in some way. And as well as all kinds of other things. People also purchase vacation homes, which is sometimes is flaunted too, which I think that that's like a very small and not necessarily even in snowmess. This is maybe more common about app show. But yeah. Yeah, I mean, they still have to live and work here. I'll put it that way. So, we've been super lucky in this town. Lucky isn't right. Maybe maybe the right word. Fortune it, smart. That we have a lot of different resources that we can use to put toward housing. This is wholly new for me in my career, 45 years of doing housing. I never had the kind of resources like we have in our town. And I think I just want to acknowledge that, again, the wisdom of having lots of different ways in which our housing can be funded besides relying on state and federal grants, which we can also do. But one is the proceeds from our rent. Not so much sales. I don't know why I put that, but it's more so that we get enough money from our rent to cover our operations and then some. And the then some we put aside for replacement reserve, like you would if you lived in a condominium, and even above and beyond that to over time to do major renovations. So we both reserve for predictable things like, you know, we need a new roof, we need to paint, we need appliances, that's one sort of reserve fund. And we also have funds that are just available to do renovations when like we did to Mountain View a couple years ago and we did a big expensive renovation. We also have in historically at land and infrastructure. We still have. It's done Mountain View, is that all funded through the housing? Yep, it was all funded. Well, we had to borrow a head a little bit because it was more. That's true. But then we've, I think we paid you back as of this year okay so we paid the general fund back. Land and infrastructure we you know we have a public works department that can sometimes help with some of the infrastructure costs like roads and so forth but more importantly we have we have had land historically, all throughout the town. It's less all the time, but our housing master plan only really focused on town on land, so we have a lot of options there. And that can be sometimes as much as a third of the cost of building. Our sales and lodging tax that was approved for housing a couple years ago is a great predictable recurring source of funding for housing. We think it'll we're looking at about 5 million a year, but You know it might be less it might be more, but it's predictable and it can be used This so have an excise tax for people when people are putting big addition bigger additions on their homes then our zoning allows they can do it but they pay into an excise tax. Not only addition, even a new build if they want to get more. If they go beyond the S. The floor. Yeah, and that's some years, that's not a lot and some years it's a lot. I mean it's I think last year it was maybe a million and a half. It's a nice resource for maybe opportunistic things that come along like the Willow's purchase or something. And then short-term rental fees also come into housing. Again, a nice sort of little study source of funds, they're not a huge amount. 300, about 300 a year. But these are just all, it's just all really great. And this one to call it out. So our rentals, we have 310 units. We just did this count the other day, 446 adults and 71 children. So we have a lot of children even in our rentals. And I was surprised how high that number is because a lot of our units are our studios in one bedrooms. So it's a pretty significant number. Do you know the mix I was thinking that I was trying to look that up for how it breaks out with studios, ones, twos, and threes. I don't have that at the top of my end right now. Most of our rental units are either studios or two bedrooms. And we have a few ones and we have five three bedrooms. That's it. That's it. Average annual income when we went through it, and I'll say as an asterisk on this, we did not include town employees, the town employees who live in our housing, we did not include their income in this calculation, because we didn't ask for it, because it just didn't seem right to ask for our colleagues' incomes. But we just, we did get verified, obviously, that they work full time. But taking the town employees out, the average annual income is about 44,000 throughout our housing, our rental portfolio. And I went and did a median just to see if it was different for the statistic walks among us, and it was almost exactly the same. So these are not wealthy people by and large. We had some as low as eight or 9,000 a year. Those were people who tended to not make the 1,400. But if you're making $20 an hour as a lifty or working in back of a house, that's what your annual income is. These are some of the businesses. I tried to give you a big list here of where people work. This is as of this year, right? This was this year. Not surprisingly, most are with SkiCo. A town of Snowmass Village is the second after that, and then it kind of goes from there. And I was interested to see that most of them are local, locally owned businesses for the most part. Ficeroy and Viewliner down there, but, you know, the Snowmass Club, CMZ, Property Manager, Clarks Market has a lot, Stonebridge, and so on. You can kind of see how it spreads out. And this is pretty typical of what we've seen the last few years. We've looked at this, of the people living in our rental units. I did do a quick look at people on our waiting list, and again, SkiCo and TOSV were the greatest number. Then I think they were followed by like, vice-during view line. It was a little bit higher on the bigger employers. It was more reflective of the big employment. And I think sometimes what happens, honestly, is people get in and they realize that they have options of other places to work. And they may, you know, leave, they may come in as a vice-roy employee, let's say, but then they have, they can go work anywhere because they're not in vice-roy housing anymore. They're in snowmess housing. So people do kind of move around. of this list of the three or more only two, I think we're not snowmess village. One was St. Regis and one was Aspen Valley Hospital. They both with three. And Alyssa too, it's not on the list, but two work for the school district. One who you know. Great morning to the heart. Great morning to the heart. Thank you. Here's just a little snapshot on our waiting list. Again, all of this is in a way is kind of a snapshot in time. But I thought this was sort of interesting 278 honor list. But when I say approximate wait time to rental, that's when as we're renting them, that's approximately how long they have worked in this town before their name comes up on the list. And then you can see below just again a little snapshot how many years of the people on our list have worked here, 138 have been here five or more years. So it's a long time to figure it out. That's the only criteria. I mean, when you get selected is just... Snowmass Village in other places. So, I mean, I's theoretically possible that they're also on the wait list in other places. So I mean, I guess my thought is, is like really of the 278. Like, how many aren't double dipping and they're just going to take whatever comes first? So I mean, one thing to know is that it does not maintain a waiting list. I don't know if you know that. They do not have a waiting list. You have to, when a unit becomes available, they take application. And they will rent to whoever has the most time as well. But you know, this still blows my mind. I had a meeting with APCHA and somebody from the city of Aspen last week to just kind of, they wanted to see how our program worked. But I'm like, let me ask you this question. And you really have to literally call every property on a weekly basis to see if they have anything. And there's lots of properties, right? There's a lot. They've got something like 3000 units total. And it's, you know, they- They look Central Hub where you could go find out that information. No, that's why we need a housing navigator, honestly, because, you know. But, and I said, you know, I think you could do like a little portal where everyone puts their units that are available and you can go find them, but they don't. And I'm not sure why they've made that decision. I think partly they only manage, Maralt, where are the ones? Trust get and one other. Oh, so only manage a few. They only manage three of their rental properties. All the rest are third party managed and owned in some cases, in many cases. So the ones you see on the app, should website, or just those Yep, got it. Okay. I forget what the third or the first sale, or their deed restrictive for sale. Yeah. Once in a while, they'll list something like as a courtesy, but most people to find those units, they have to go out there and know where to look. So to answer your questions, yes, but you know, you really need to know your your stuff to have to know what you're doing. A lot of them go just word of mouth because a lot of them are word of mouth. A lot of people just know, oh, so and so is moving out. And they don't repaint, they don't take out all the pots and pans, you just move in and are happy to be there. I mean, it's kind of crazy. or ever yard signs. I've had people be like yeah look at the one in the ABC there's a yard sign and it's a deep restricted sale. Yeah I mean we've we made a conscious decision at Joe when I say we and Terry and you know the people who created this program a conscious decision to have a more transparent process and you know to really be able to figure out who's where and how to get them in. So it's a very different system. So yes, I mean, would the number one person on the list take the unit if it were available tomorrow? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they're caught in a lease somewhere or they're not ready or there's a lot of reasons. But we have, you know, our vacancy rate is zero, to be honest. So it's, and do we need 278 units that would be filled tomorrow if they were available, probably not that many. But over time, new people come in, people go out. It's, you know, and I think we could fill 200, you know. I also think sometimes people don't know they're eligible, which is shocking. Like I just meaning that like, just from people who've babysat from meaning that work for ski co or for little red schoolhouse and they're like, oh wait, I'm eligible and I'm like, yeah. Yeah, you can get on that list. So I think that there's sometimes it's just like a lack of knowledge about what it takes to. So meaning that there may be more people that would be supported by this, that don't even realize it's there is what I'm saying.. We've noticed a couple business owners that have brought in their employees. Like they bring them, too, in particular, I'm thinking of CNC and then Charlie Bros has been doing it, the base camp guy. It's all the sudden it's like, oh, so he would bring them over with a translator and get them on our list. And a lot of them have 20 years working for the same company. Long time loyal employees who live down Valley and anyway. So it's, yeah, I think you really do think that's true. I have a question and as I think about it, I'm like, it would take some sort of crazy AI mechanism to manage this. But I really like what the master lease does for employers here. And I think that that's a really nice thing to be like, okay, I'm going to open a business and I know that if I'm Rock Island, I have five units that are going to be masterlies to me. To your point, it's a bummer if you're not getting along with your coworker and you really just need to leave and work for the stupas. And that means you may lose your housing. And I guess my question is, is there any mechanism other than the master lease that could maybe the master lease isn't exactly needed to exact units, but it's like a unit pool that you're interested in. Just something so that that's a good idea. You're encouraging people to be here and work in snowmass, but maybe it's not so cut throughout the job, because I think people can need to move on for a job, from a job for a lot of very valid reasons that they shouldn't have to instantaneously move out of their house. But I do really like, I also like that, like sort of, it's really hard to run up business here too. So having that security of knowing, you know, if you're running the dentist, knowing that you can bring on another hygienist with that security, I think can guarantee people a lot of a lot of like, you know, things. And again, I think about it, I'm like, how in the world would you manage that, but I'm just kind of throwing it out there. Well, it could be like those. I think the businesses encourage their employees to get on the regular wait list, so that another one of their other employees could get into the master least one. So I've had quite a few of those, which is a little different than what you're talking about. But I think it's really interesting. I would have to wrap my brain around how to manage something like that, but if it was pulled or you know if there was a way that people could move around within the village without losing their housing and then the businesses would somehow miraculously still have a unit when they needed one. You know it's if we had a lot if we had more units you know if we had more turnover in our units, it might be. It's an interesting suggestion. I kind of like it. I just don't, maybe there's more of a grace period or something and they can be next in line for a unit that opens. But every time you have a priority, then there's somebody who's been on the list for 100 years whose name never comes up. So it's just, yeah, it's something to think about. I've never heard our colleagues talk about it. We're in a number of different associations with people do the same thing we do. And I've never heard, we always ask each other how we manage these things. I've never heard of another one like that, but I do like it. I do like that idea, because then it's a win for the businesses and for the employee. Yeah. We'll see you guys back soon. Okay. Can I ask a quick question about the wait list too? So how many people are actually, Are anyone on the wait list who's also already living in rental units but they're on the wait list because they have another interest like they want to get a transfer list that we maintain. We don't like to do transfers very often but we will do, you know, say add children to their family or someone gets divorced or if they, you know, those are the two main reasons that people are roommates. That's the other one. That's called your transfer list. We call it a transfer list. And they're not necessarily in that line of the 278. They're kind of in a different. They're in a different and it's, we don't do them terribly often because we like to keep the regular list moving but I think especially people who are in a divorce situation or have a bunch of kids in there in a studio, that kind of thing. We really do try to get that answer. They have to be full-time snowman's employees. Yeah, we don't allow to. Did they jump ahead of other waitlist? As a transfer and then they open up their unit. And yeah. Do you guys, is there a restriction at all in the type of employment that someone can have in Picking County if they move on from Snowmass? No, not really. As long as it serves P, as long as it serves Pick and County, and it's located, the business is located in Pick and County. Can it be a private family? Yeah, sometimes people can't, if they do 1400 hours for that family. Okay. Yeah. Baby City, we have babysitters, we have property managers. I'll try to go quicker because I guess it's a lot of time. Our deed restricted. We have a 998 units. That is 324 adults and 118 children. That's surprisingly fewer units but more children just because they're homes. And I thought I'd give you this piece of information. The only place you can retire is in our deed restricted housing if you have lived and worked for the town after purchasing it for at least 10 years. And you've reached the age of 62. We do allow retirement. We have 36 households that are retired in our homes right now. Not surprisingly, it's grown a little bit recently because of the age of the village and the age of when they bought the homes, raised their families, and they're still there. We turn over about four to five homes each year in the last few years. Our prices range from 100,000 to 850,000 so there's opportunities for people at all incomes. And our typical demand for one of our lottery is 20 to 1. Our lottery is not based strictly on how long you've worked here. We have it's a weighted weighted lottery. So we have something like seven tiers. The first tier are people who are moving within their complex. They're just, and again, they need to be working in snowmess village and meet all the other qualification criteria. But they can jump over other people if it's in complex. Second priority is downsizing. People who want to go from a larger unit to smaller. And tier three is the one where most of the action happens. That's people who've worked in town three years or more. And the longer you work here, the more chances you get in the lottery. Believe that makes sense. So what's on the horizon? And in the air. Sorry, I just want to question about that. Like, in filling filling the bedrooms that's like you need to have one per bedroom. Yeah. Yep. So if you have a three bedroom you need two two adults in a child at least. Yeah. Except for two bedrooms. And that's before you even get to the watery position that you would be in. Correct. The only exception to that is two- condominiums, a single person can buy a two bedroom condominium. That was just to inventory wise. Yeah. I was just to make sure that single people didn't get iced out of the whole deal. Have any of the people that have housing, of any of them take advantage of being able to rent their Unit to an employee. I mean, I know we sort you know that was a big thing that we talked about When we were doing the regulations. You know, honestly, we won't necessarily know they might just do it But no, but since that change has been made nobody has said'm doing it, but we know that there are people in the past who rent to other people in their homes. I was just curious how many people have taken advantage of it since then. None that I'm aware of yet. Maybe we can do some research through H.O.A.'s in the future. I mean, it would be just to know how many people are taking advantage of these things. Is it rental the bedroom? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. They can rent up to two bedrooms as long as they still live there. Yeah. New development things you kind of know what we've been working on and with the draw site and the potential of the SNOMAS center, our housing master plan as other sites identified, whoops. But I think those are probably the ones that are most obviously on the horizon. For mitigation, how do you know about this shop project that SkiCo's proposing and that is probably the most active one. Acquisition and preservation, that's really an opportunistic thing and we keep our eyes open, our ears to the ground as things come up, we'll bring them to you. And then zoning, some zoning changes, I think that could make it a little bit more affordable. One is that it used to be that the parking requirements for workforce housing were higher than for regular, not any old housing. Those have now been made the same and we're already able to see in the draw site that trade off like a unit or more parking. And I think they're still quite adequate. This ADU thing that just went through could result in some additional workforce housing. It hasn't yet, I haven't heard anything on the horizon. But the West Mountain Regional Housing Coalition, I mentioned some of the things that they're looking at doing. The needs assessment, I saw in Clint's memo last week, he let you guys know, know last year legislation was passed that requires all municipalities to do a comprehensive needs assessment. It's actually not due to the end of next year but we have, we're partnering with Aspen and Pickin County and to hire a firm to look, to look at our, to do carveouts for us and then look at the region as a whole, but we'll have a lot of data on snow mass village that will come out of that. Hopefully by the fall, we'll see something. And then I just want to mention Proposition 1, 2, 3, the state has really put all its eggs in the basket of this Proposition 1, 2, 3 that was passed a few years ago. It's a tax that make- It's your income tax. It's an extra little chunk of income tax that so it is a recurring, predictable source of revenue for housing. The challenge with it for us is that the incomes have been limited to like 80% of area median, which is quite a bit below what most people, most households earn. So it hasn't been very usable. So we're working, you know, with our groups, you know, our advocacy groups to try to see if there can be carve-outs or change it exceptions for the, the resort communities. And in fact, our needs, one of other things our needs assessment will look at is income categories and where we really need to be. And we can use that to ask for a waiver from the state. The other main thing that they want is a 90 day approval process. More or less, it can be extended somewhat, but a quicker approval process right now our PUD process is relatively lengthy and so that's something that may need to be looked at in the future. We'll bring that back to you guys in the next month or two. I mean it's an expiry review process in order to tap this grant funds and what it could look like. What we're going to show you, Dave's working on it now, we're going to take housing through a special review. So as ownership you'd look at it all the way to the end and you'd say yep we love it hopefully and then we submit and that's how we hit the expedited review because we don't submit until that. And so if it was somebody else on the outside we don't know to work that one yet, but for our own projects, that's what we're going to recommend you guys to hit this grant requirement. It's a lot of money that can be available. And it does all kinds of different things. It's grants, it's loans, it's equity, it's preservation, it's all kind of things. So It is, they are the eggs are in that basket right now. And that's it, that's all I got. Ta-da. Great. It's all kind of things so it is they are the eggs are in that basket right now And that's it that's all I got Any other questions? Thank you. Thank you Yeah, thoughts I mean I know it's actually you had asked Specifically to put it on and so I didn't know if there's anything that you wanted to Yeah, I, I think some of this is going to be a lack of mind knowing how process works. But some of this, I would love to look at potential modifications before we move to fill the draw site. And I really think that conversations like this are incredibly helpful so that you're just learning kind of like what's behind it and you know, we're gonna have questions for you guys and you're gonna have answers and there's gonna be things you may have to go and look up or bring back to us and just gaining a better understanding of like what's behind our current housing is really, it's incredibly helpful. And I think, you know, for me, one of the first and most poignant reasons I asked for this was that I often feel like we're at a point where we can't build our way out of this problem, which I've a lot of people say that. And so being incredibly thoughtful about how we fill the units moving forward is like a way that we can kind of find that balance between both. And I think that's why I brought up the question of, can we potentially really serve the businesses here while not being so caught through it with the people that it's horrible and abrupt move if for some reason you're a great server but like one place is just not working for you and you just move across the way. So yeah, I think I have a strong conviction that I would love to see smaller businesses served further and more and ensuring that they have access and even ensuring that we have like touch with those businesses making sure like, hey, what are your needs in the next like three years? And making sure that they're then turning that information over to their team and so that the team knows what's available to them as well. And I think that there's, when I look at that process, I think while not like chopping a part of our wait list, but potentially giving some of the small businesses like a little bit further wait to like bring some of their team members up to the top and maybe what as like a priority pool or so those are the types of conversations I would love to like really get into. I do have discomfort with us building housing for people who are going to work for private families and I would love to talk about that as well. I don't think it's necessarily our responsibility as the town of Snowmass to support, I'm using sort of a grigous examples, but to support a family that lives on Red Mountain who has 20 employees who pull up to their house. I love the people who babysit for my family and I couldn't survive without them, but would I prefer that like we we're as the town of Snowmass supporting the teachers that little red and that's who we're housing? I think it has to be top priority. And I think maybe taking a little bit of a look at that because if you have a house on Red Mountain, you may just need to mitigate that housing on your own. I don't think it's necessarily the town of Snowmass' job to do that. I think like figuring out what our relationships are with some of these key players is another place where I want to dig in just a little bit more to make sure that a relationship with SkiCo, the school district, I know that that was looked up before like what is our relationship to the school district. Do we want a different relationship with the hospital or not? Like what does that look like? Is there anyone else that's essential that where you need to be really looking at? Are we not thinking of like tradespeople? Do we need to have a few more plumbers and electricians living in snowmass? If we're gonna have more people living here, do we have to kind of raise those people to the top, like sift them to the top and the priority list? I just wanna have a thoughtful discussion about like what really, as more people are living in snow mass, how do we reduce the impact on the roads, how do we reduce, like, I don't want to cause any greater problems inadvertently. And I'm hoping that we can have a thoughtful conversation about that. While speaking to a few of the things that make me uncomfortable spending taxpayer dollars to subsidize. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean that's whatever you yeah. And I think as we move forward on the draw site is the perfect opportunity because there'll be a lot of units. You know. Yeah. That's an opportunity to maybe try some things out, because sometimes you don't know what the unintended consequences are. But you know, if it's not wholesale, but you know, if we focused it there, I think it makes a lot of sense. But I did do, I know you also had, you know, I've talked about this before and had comments and thoughts just about how the buildings are being programmed in terms of unit mix and the key. Yeah, I mean, I think this whole conversation is really helpful in us kind of getting to that bigger picture of who are we building for and why and then how are they going to move into the housing. And I think that some of the points that's essentially brought up and some, you know, ideas that you kind of started discussing tonight, like reevaluating that master leasing or figuring out ways to prioritize protecting and preserving small businesses. And is there a way that we can kind of think about our housing stock that we have and then separate that from what we may be building going forward and seeing what works, what hasn't worked, and what should we be shifting into new expectations for the housing that hasn't been built yet. I think that would help us really understand the efficiency of what we're trying to accomplish, which is you know, is a functioning community as well as a functioning resort. And maybe those mega-home ecosystems that are becoming a problem in the valley don't serve either of those spaces. So that's an interesting space to explore. So I'm grateful for this opportunity to just kind of get some of those ideas and pass them on to you. And you know another another question that I struggle with and then I hear a lot not so much my personal struggle but just the comments that continue to come up about building housing that then you know will potentially belong to somebody that can move out into Picking County. I you've reassured us that that's a small percentage but I still have a lot of concerns about at what point does snow mass really need to say we only got a finite footprint of housing that we can build going forward and perhaps the system that's in place now for the housing that exists. That expectation exists. Maybe moving forward, we need to reevaluate if you can move on out of snowmast village for employment. If we want to continue to manage having employees into the 2030, 40-year forecast. I think we could get ourselves into a situation where that becomes more of a problem as time goes on. Just the movement in the valley, and we are a value-wide community. So I appreciate that, but Snowmass itself, just we don't have the footprint that has been or other, you know, local municipalities have to be able to build additional housing and still allow for that movement. So I think I'd like to discuss if that Peking County movement has some limitations. You know, maybe you still have to remain in your housing for another three years before you, or you get three more years and then you can move out. I don't know, but that's, that is a bigger picture concern that I hear regularly, so I'd like to explore if there's any way to alleviate that concern in anything that we build going forward without changing, you know, the policies that exist now for the current stock. And another question that I had before we sat down but did not have quite the numbers for was that the mitigation and is that 60% enough? And it sounds like we've talked about, or it's been, as much as 100%, but it hasn't been re-evaluated for 15 to 20 years at this point. Does 16% feel like enough for new development? For new development? No. I mean, I would say it doesn't at this point. When we're reaching build out and that build out is going to affect what we can develop for workforce housing. It's also going to affect all of our resources. So I think we should be really thoughtful about reconsidering that six different. I agree with that. Although I don't think there's going to be that much more development going forward, not to the magnitude of all base fillings. I mean, unfortunately most of it has happened, but I think at any time that we have a developer come to us with a new purchase of an existing space. I agree because we're realizing it's a scarcity. Yeah. And is the dollar figure low too? Am I recalling that correct? Like that the dollar figure might feel a little low and that too. It's like $1,000 a unit or so. We haven't done cash until the most recent. Into the most recent. Yeah. I think we got a million dollars a unit for that. And so that's the first time we've done cash 10 years. Okay. And that's why this just wants to come and do the backstop. Right. Right. We've got three years to actually build sticks and bricks and if they don't get it approved, then they'll have a cash. I think I'll say it. And that is a million dollars unit, but they're... It's a million It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. It's right. So if you do 60%, then somebody has to do the 40%. And so, you know, APCHA is pushing, we're all pushing, but really, unless you're a housing provider like us, or APCHA, you're not doing anything in the affordable world. So you're sort of agreeing that maybe we should revisit the 60%? I mean, yeah, I think it is. Well, because what are the options they drive for a rightful and rightful and pear-ever? Yeah, or? Yeah, I don't know. I think we should look at that. And there did used to be options. People could find some free market. Yeah, I mean, Glenwood or Carvindale, those are options too that really don't, there aren't options anymore for, yeah. for our folks. No, I completely agree. So I did some math based on your memo here and I was really shocked. I mean, just your numbers, I know they're a little bit proximate, but a full, one quarter of all of our housing is not being occupied by snowmass village employees. It's surprising where that comes from. Well, let me just say that my number on the owner occupied wasn't great because I did it quickly. And there were many self-employed and I was sort of making assumptions on some of that. But it's on the rental, I feel really confident in that. I mean, we just tell you, I mean, maybe it's off by a little bit, but it's a big number, I think. So there's, on the rental, 15% of 310 units is for you. I feel confident in that. 46 units. Yeah. There's 36 units that are retired, people. And there were were I mean I took your number of it was 75% of the net on the deed restrict and net of the retired I need to do more. They came out to about 40 so I mean might be off by a couple, but that's 122 units Total No, that's not right my math math is, yeah, it is. It's 122 units out of total 508 units. It's 24%. I mean, it's a big number. And I understand where it all came from, but I think our circumstances have changed. We all wear that. I mean, there's a real crisis. Our number one priority is to have employees in Snowmass Village housed in Snowmass Village as much as we can. And I think we should discuss whether you know, certainly on the rentals that we change the pulse sound like you really got to work here and if you lose leave your job here we'll give you a year or 18 months. You can work in Picking County but if you don't come back to Snowmass Village in a certain month time you got to go because we need to we need to house our employees and the retire number is just going to keep growing just the demographics. I mean, it may not, too. It may get to an age where they just can't live in the altitude or take care of them. They move on, but I think there's more people. I mean, I guess I would. I would. I think you're right. I think we talked about it when we did the deed the dearest when we looked over the regulations too And I just want I feel strongly that that's where the community where we have to hold the community piece with the workforce piece People who have worked here their whole lives do they get to retire? It's that's a question. No, I mean who want who? He's not standing in the job. Oh, I thought were saying the retired too. No, no, I mean, the retired's in there. I'm not questioning it right now. I think that number is going to grow just because people are aging. But I do think the one we really could modify some is on the rental side. And going forward, change our regulations so that it's... or not so gracious of I how you could work and you could place some pick and count for as long as you want. And we have said this a couple times tonight, but for the draw site, we think that's the time to do that experiment and figure it out. Pick some winners, whether pick who that locally owned serving business is, who we don't want. I mean, I don't wanna say it that way, I just did, I guess. And then whatever. I think that is the time to start changing things up. And let's try it out. Yeah. Well, because I feel like there are some pick and county jobs that snowmess village needs. Oh, yeah, you're right. There's some of them. Exactly. We could have done. So there's some things that we could really work with. Yeah. The want of our partners is important. Yes. Yeah, I agree we could have a list of those or categories of those. Yeah Do we sort of agree that we want to look at that kind of thing? I'm looking at it for sure. Yeah, yeah Yeah, I mean that that kind of gets to what I was my concern that I hear from the community Which is that picking you know moving outward and picking county is is a strain on our snowmess village workforce so and maybe it isn't the partners but it is I like the idea of a grace period you can move your job but you got at some point plan to come back to snowmess or something you know I feel one of those jobs that we feel is important to snowm Village that we don't necessarily. Yeah, I mean, hospital hospital. Yeah, or something, but if you go to work for a house on Red Mountain, no way. Well, we laugh, but we're like, no one knows. Snowmass is housing. I don't know how much. I think that's a question that we kind of option needs to ask it too. Yeah. I'm sorry, what was that? Before housing workers for. It's about even houses on. Not sure, Kim, in this way and I's going that way. Oh, no, I thought you were doing that. No, no, no, no, sorry. I was referring to like the number, how many people were housing that are then working for private families or private homes? That is an extremely small number. I'll just tell you that. I mean, I think maybe two. And then that person has to have a business license in just no house. Right. Right. No, not once they got on the, once they've gotten a unit, then they can move to pick and count it, right? right and they can but if it's a rental they still have to show that it's a picking county business so big and county business right but it's it's extremely small number right yes extremely small and you're referencing that kind of mega home I'm not sure what a mega I know it's a concept that that've started talking about. It's it's those the nannies the the private chefs the showfers is that Where we're discussing I mean because that's an interesting new phenomenon that's growing I think here and it doesn't mean your home has to be huge. It just means that you have created your own entire business around our business of living. And those business, those homes sometimes are quite large. They're often not anywhere near public transportation. And then they're also require things like extraordinary amounts of maintenance. So you might like have someone who's been trained for the maintenance facilities. Because it's one family. I'm sorry. He was the one who would know the total number. It's different than a cleaning crew that goes to somebody's house every day, but they work for a cleaning company. You're thinking about captive. Because we have that. We have probably managers. Two different things. But you're talking about somebody's sort of like, they're employed by the family for the family only. Correct. Which is a growing, it's probably something that's become a thing since 2020. So it's not to say what's in existence before, but looking at the like outsized impact on the valley that like one given home can have because they mean someone to come do all the maintenance on their home. Right. And so they pull that person who was the maintenance person for ski co and ski co trained them and then they've pulled them into like just being the maintenance person for their home. I'm not sure we have anybody. It's just with that definition. I don't know that we have anybody who meets that definition. There are some people who have other jobs and then they'll do that as like a side job. Get more hours, but yeah, going off of all the rentals and their jobs that I went through, no one fits that description. And perhaps not yet, but I think with the wealth gap growing, we're going to have those billionaires living here that rely on that kind of lifestyle. So I think it is something to consider as we evaluate how the wait list works and what kinds of, yeah. I don't want to call it priority, because that wouldn't negate the wait list. We're not going to solve the bill you're not proud with our housing policy. Great, but we are definitely trying to protect and preserve the resort as a functioning system and having somebody's whose private lifestyle does not feed into that in any way. It doesn't feed into our economy. It's not part of our resort. Yeah, but I think potentially part of our resort. Yeah. But I think potentially part of our community, but still on a positive way. I think really reinforcing our small local business. Yeah. Yeah. I get it. But I do think it's important to really figure out what it is that those businesses want. Because you know, it's like you talk to them, and some of them will well I need to I need more housing for my employees but then you say something like oh what about a masterly situation where you know There's dedicated you know that you know, and it's not it's not costing them anything I mean they're their employees renting it but I just I think really having these With the business community whether you a dentist or a shop owner, it doesn't matter, like really understanding. I also think that, you know, we've talked about it for a long time. I mean, Marke did at Nazim about aging in place and we really haven't, I mean, done anything with that. And, you know, we're looking at these neighborhoods. I mean, I was telling Brit Today, it's like I think when I think about the crossings, and then I think about rodeo. I mean, so many of my friends that moved into rodeo when all of our kids were little and now they're all teenagers, and they're soon going to be out at the house. And so figuring out how we can really incentivize and help those people that want to stay here but also would be willing to turn their house over to another growing family. And you know, we don't, you know, if you're interrental, you have to be working but it's like maybe we change that policy for these people that are willing to move out to a different unit and maybe the land behind the center you know has a dedicated space for that. I don't know, but I think we really are just seeing a lot of that right now. And I know some houses in the crossings have turned over and if some you know give them to their kids and their kids qualify and all that works out, they might turn over to families. But I think that's the biggest sort of miss in my mind that we haven't yet really tried to crack at all. And it's hard. I understand people not wanting to leave their homes, but I think there's legitimately people that would, if there was something attractive. And, you know, we got to figure out what that is. So one thing about those homes though, eventually they come back to the pool. People don't live there forever. Yeah, they do, but when you look at like someone that's sitting on like a four bedroom house, and you know, their kids don't live here grandkids don't live here and it's really not you know being utilized by a family who's then crammed into a two bedroom or a one-bedroom apartment like you know something's got to get. You should try having a conversation with one of those people. Well I mean I know but I'm sitting right here. No, no, but I think in talking to some won those people. Well, I mean, I know. But in I'm saying, like, right here. I know. And no. But I think in talking to some of those people, they legitimately would be fine moving. But the problem that they've had is other things that have become available cost more than the place that they're currently living in. So there's no incentive to want to switch it up. And like, Susan, she can go up and down the stairs but like there might become a point where people can't and they want to live in a one just around the corner of the place but I think it's I think there's some people that aren't gonna want to leave but there's some people that would and so you know how do we make it exciting for them well there's a way to reevaluate you know if we get to that point where we're looking at the work for the Housing Master Plan again, I think it would be really meaningful to identify somewhere in all the land owned by the town that we could consider some kind of aging in place movement. Well, I think that involves figuring out what it is that people would want. What are the incentives that would actually entice them? And whether that's you know being able to walk to the grocery store or you know closer to the ski area or you know I don't know like yeah all on one level or yeah you know I don. I mean, there's a lot of reasons that people stay with your neighborhood and keeping your community as part of your movements. Wait, because you don't want to lose those people, which is to the point that you are making before Betsy. It's like you are sort of you sacrifice for the community and having these multi-generational and long-term people here, which is what you want. But at the same time, it's like hard because you have all these other people who want what those people have had to enjoy for their own family, which I don't blame them, I get it. Well, and can, sorry Susan, I just will use you as an example, but can Susan move out of her home into this great cosmopolitan place that we've built behind the center, has blockable restaurants, can her kids, if they qualify, take over her house. Yes. And then they'll have grandpick kids and it'll sell it. She's an original owner. But only in my neighborhood. She's an original owner. Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting one, too. like how to solve that sort of like. So we're gonna use Susan as our example. Yes, our Susan. I can tell you how it makes me feel all these things. One thing that was added in the regulations last time was extra bonus points for people who have grown up here. Yeah, I kind of perfectly know about that. And it makes. I mean, you don't want to, I have friends whose grandmother's just passed away, mom's going to have a hard time meeting their working requirement and then it's lost and they can never move back here. So it's, sorry, this is I'm using an Aspen example. I'm just saying empathize with the issue. Like it's hard to and it can't skip generations. So. But to take this up just slightly, Britta Touchdot. And I mentioned for I really would like to have a new look at the Housing Master Plan. We've got new properties. We've learned more. We know what the process is to build stuff. I think it'd be great to have another work session on that. A lot has changed since 2022 with just the shift in real estate too. Even that's only a few years ago. It's been a big huge movement in real estate. I'd also be curious to know if there's better options. I know that we were talking about the master lease in relationship to sort of a pooled concept, but if other towns have found, maybe not master leases, but priorities to be better situations, just because the town is ultimately a better property manager, then maybe all the small businesses being the, not sorry, not proper new management, but landlord, like having that dynamic can be tough. So maybe the town is the right one to still hold that, even though there's priorities for businesses. I don't know. That's possible too. I mean, that's kind of what we do with Town and Pleys and we have various priorities. Anything else? Talks to the clerk. Thanks. It is way over and I know that Sam is sitting back there, but I don't know. This is right over here. We commute together so I know. But I didn't know if we want to move the next discussion to the next meeting. Yeah. I should be five minutes. I hope I don't know what else is there going to be five minutes. I could make it five minutes. I mean, I don't I guess I don't know what the discussion is. All right. Thank you guys so much really appreciate it Sam come on up we are going to talk about the mall transit next step discussion is. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Sam, come on up. We are going to talk about the mall transit next steps in five minutes. So, why Sam's walking up? I mean, the council asked us to give a timeline. I mean, the fundamental part of this timeline is we don't think any kind of significant grants are going to be available for at least four years. And so, over the next four years, we're recommending planning and that kind of thing. We don't know that aren't going to be grants for four years. We assume, right? We know that we will not get one from the state and we know we will not get one from the feds. We if they have said does, you don't talk to us for a few minutes. Not because of us, but because of where the world is now. all the above really above, really. Yes. Sam Burrino, Transportation Director, thanks for making me feel so want to listen. I really appreciate it. Do I make you feel want to listen? I think there was a Sam come on up. There's something on those. Oh, Sam, we're always happy to see you. But we're going to do it quickly. Thanks for waiting. So we're way over time. but go ahead. I've been waiting this whole time. No, I think Clint just summarized it well. We think that the next steps are to get out to the public with what we've produced and settle on what the council prefers for a design or a scope, I should say, moving forward. And then, as again, as Clint said said it's kind of laid out there in the timeline of when we would expect to actually be able to build something based on that. I mean I have one objection to the timeline you laid out which is basically you set the transit center on hold while we look at the whole area of the mall and all that which could take forever because I mean it's very nebulous. We don't even know all the players are right. We have a lot of momentum up to this point on the transit center. I'd hate to lose them at that momentum. There's a lot institutional knowledge with the engineers and everybody that could, But if we wait another year before we pick up a pencil again, I think we can lose some of that. I think we all said that we're pretty much agreement that we want to do a transfer and this seems to be the concept that we're agreement on. So I would hope that we could move off forward with the design, get the design to a point that we're comfortable with it, which means bringing an architect to make the imagery something that we're all comfortable with. Talk about the parking and decide what we want to do about parking and then produce up drawings to get the Planning and Department Planning Commission approval and then bring it here for approval. And then we've got some that's approved and ready to go and we can get a price properly and we can, when we can be out looking for funding, we got a real project rather than just sort of, I'd hate to lose momentum and all the knowledge that's been put together up to this point and just put aside for 12, 18 months and just and then start it up again. I think we should use the momentum to get public feedback and also talk to partners. And I think this is the time to do that. And I think what we say is, you know, this is, we think this is a really good design, but we need help. And this could help you in these ways. This is talking to partners in asking for grants. I mean, I think we need to work on that as soon as possible. And I would hold back on doing a lot of design work until we've had really good conversations with the community because. The one piece, I mean, I'm just not comfortable going to the community with the images we have right now, because I think they're not very appealing. I would hope the week. We all think they look appealing. Well, I've had people in the community that say, oh, but I think. Any mission that it was fine? If what I'm asking is that we bring in an architect, spend a couple months, maybe $30,000, $50,000, get the imagery cleaned up and really to something that we all agree on and then bring it to the community. I'm not saying spend a million dollars on design. I'm just talking about going that one next step where it really would be something that people say, boy, that's great. I'd rather talk to the community first. Well, and I guess I would where I fall in that is when the new center was proposed and they had the drawings ready and they put them up on the wall there. That's when the community really started to have something visual and really started to get buy-in or push back. But without that next level of refinement, we've even identified some of the issues that an architect might come in and suggest, like here's a better way for movement for people or, you know, so I think that what you're talking about is the right financial investment to get that public buy-in that carries this momentum to the next level and keeps that buy-in helping us evolve this as we're working through the budgeting and the next steps. Because I think to give too vague of a concept for public feedback, you know, runs us the risk of getting pushback because there's too many question marks still. So I think that I understand why they did what they did to get the center to where they were ready for public feedback. And I think we should follow that lead and get there. Before we end up in the kind of situation that we were in a few years ago where what was going out into the community was being... There was... We ended up in the kind of situation that we were in a few years ago where what was going out into the community was being, was showing a disconnect and a frustration from the community because it wasn't refined enough. There wasn't enough design element into it. So I know, you know, I come from an architectural world, so I understand the difference between the renderings that we're looking at now and we would be able to accomplish with that additional funding and a little bit of time here. And I can guarantee you it would get us to that next level of community engagement that we should be looking for before we ask the question, do you like this? Because there's just a handful of things that still need to be refined to get the right opinion. Because if we change it then, we start asking for buy-in, and then we change it, then have we gone a step backwards in that community buy-in. Yeah, we change what they like. Right, and then now we've got people with certain expectation, and then they're not gonna have that expectation met. So I think it's worth the investment. This is the closest this project has made it to fruition in you know 30 plus years of designs that have gotten close and fallen apart. So I think that we're really the momentum is good and we should capitalize on it. I mean trying to find community buy-in sounds like we're trying to know, convince them that this is a good idea. I don't mean it that way, and if I said it that way, you're right. I would like for the community to have a good understanding of what's being proposed so that we can get genuine feedback of whether they are happy with it or not. And I feel like we looked at it, we were able to come to a conclusion. I think they can too. That's where I am. Possessely? Any thoughts? Let's show you first. I mean, I don't know. I don't necessarily know what the best way to go is. I mean, I do, we did look at it and we could determine. But I do hear what you're saying. I mean I you know it's like we've seen it with the draw site. We've seen it with the transit before. I mean people I think people want to have something to look at that's pretty close to what it's going to be. I mean I think my main one of the things I wrote down and I know you put in your memo saying how to do it the parking structure. And you said, do we want this parking structure? Do we not? Is it part of the plan? I guess a lot of it for me comes onto questions about parking and like no matter what you apply for, do you need to put back the same amount of parking that existed? Was it just specific because of that grant the way that we applied for? It's really what we want to tell our residents, I mean our constituents, I mean I would not feel comfortable saying we're going to take out a lot of parking. No but I'm saying this idea of if we were to put the parking weather it's part of a repairs plan or part of our own plan on to daily lean somehow, like not that we're gonna lose the parking at all. I'm just wondering, given that we're starting over, like are there certain parameters that we have to be with in? No, I mean we could lose the parking, we could move it somewhere else. It just that needs to be studied at the grant award level and at the environmental assessment level. It should be, I mean that's part of what I think we should sort of work out amongst ourselves with an architect and the engineer and and see some options say yeah, let's do this and then that's what we present to the committee or we show the committee options, but it's certainly very important that we have a decision that approach to the parking when we go to the public I think. Yeah, and I think that was what was in the memo is that if we are going to go we need a scope first. But at the same rate, I mean, you can go to the one of my concerns is is going to the community before talking to all the partners. There could be some partners who are gonna require, particularly Raffta, that there are changes made to this design. The chances of us coming up with a design here, and showing it to the public, that being the final design are very low. I agree, I should do all of that before we go to the public. And that's what we should be using this time for, meeting with the partners, getting the design cleaned up, deciding on the parking. Well, right. And it works. And I think that's what we see as the planning process. I mean, all those partners, the area planning process. All those partners on the mall that would be involved in a remodel, ski co, raft, all of those folks are gonna have a piece in how this gets designed, especially if they're gonna put funding into it. And if there's something that needs to happen about this design to make something else in a plan work, we wanna make sure that that element's in it and we don't wanna preclude it. I mean, I hear what you're saying, but I don't understand. You know, we went through five years with... We want to make sure that that elements in it and we don't want to preclude it I mean I hear what you're saying, but I don't understand You know we went through five years with the one level scheme and we never talked about what's the ski company thought about it Well, we're they weren't paying for it. Huh? They weren't paying for it. Well, do we know that anybody else is gonna pay for it now? They may not, if we give them a design that they, they, they, doesn't work for them. Well, I think that's the process we should have. I mean, you know, conversations with them, you know, deciding about the parking, get the design cleaned up to really work comfortable with everything sort of thought through, and you're agreement, and then we go to the public. But what I don't want to do is wait 12, 18 months and do this nebulous planning on the mall before we can start thinking about the transit center again. You know, because I think those are very different conversations somewhat related. But if some comes out of the mall area plan that says we should do something with the transit center tweak in some way I mean we're still in design we're not we haven't built anything yet but I sure wouldn't wait for that I mean we've been telling this for five years intensely let's just keep moving I think the difference of opinion here seems to be that you're saying that you think we should have the design refined before you go to the public. You're saying that you don't feel like we should do that. Like we should just. And not just to the public. I mean, Sam's point about partner. The partners. Partners to something else altogether. I mean, for after who hasn't really looked at it hard, says, wait a minute, this doesn't work for us. We got to change it. I mean, we should have those conversations, make those changes before we show it to the public as an example. Yeah. This doesn't work for us. We got to change it. I mean, we should have those conversations and make those changes before we show it to the public as an example. Right. So I think we need to go... To me, that's part of that whole next step of design just to get it to where everybody... We have a concept that everybody can sign off on. They'll go to the public to see what they say about it. So you mean having the conversations with any of the potential stakeholders and then doing the design? Yeah. Sure. I mean that makes more sense to me. Yeah. And then go to the public. So we've really gotten things sort of in that huge amount of drawing but enough that What we're showing we think we can make this work and this is what we think it should be. Yeah, that's So stakeholders slash partners design public. Yeah It's just concept design. I know we're not talking about you. And then after the public Then we can start to refine it and go in for special reveal. The Tefl is part of your stakeholder discussion. The corridor acre parking. A lot of six parking. That's going to be the most critical part of the parking. Other discussion I'm guessing. Do do need us to decide if we use the parking. What we want to do. Not tonight, but I mean, I think that's what this is kind of lined out to say. If we take the plans as is, you got option A that shows the garage and it's $50 million and it's got all the parking replaced. You got option B that has a half a garage and option C that got no garage and you're missing one that I keep saying over and over and over we can get all the parking back if we just slightly modify lots five and four period we don't need any underground garage we end up like seven car short or something. Okay. I mean that again and that needs be drawn Okay, I think we can I think we can take that concept to the stakeholders and see if that holds if they like that idea Right again, there's we've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on this already We can we've got plenty to go to the stakeholders with and say what do you think? I think we need to sort out this parking piece because we're not the parking is the biggest one. Please have somebody draw what I keep telling you. We have but the nobody's drawn it. I've drawn it. Nobody else has drawn it. I don't need to argue. I don't need to argue. Yeah, Alex has shown it to you. He hasn't drawn it right. Okay. Give me an hour or the hour. Alex, we'll get it right. Okay. Okay. So, regardless of how the parking is drawn, I mean, I think we know the points that we need to go to the stakeholders for, the discussions that we need to have, whether it's you're participating in the funding, how do you feel about the parking? What is, what is an element that is a maker break for you? For you in this design? Yeah, sure. I also in any kind of new design work, I think we should develop some way to have an interim plan so that we can address some safety and some accessibility concerns that are need to be handled before this ever comes to fruition. And so those things, whether you call it an interim plan or whatever you want to call it, I think that needs to be part of the design as well. I mean, I agree. I did write that down on my notes. I just felt like there are safety concerns and accessibility we know that I feel like could feed into the greater plan despite what some people feel. I do think that there are things that we could do and I am not an architect but I think looking at the next design level and understanding. Part of the criteria. We want this to write it in. You know, like, it doesn't it feel like that's it's premature that it and to build any interim if we don't know what the final products going to look like. I how do we, how do we build toward the end result without understanding what the end result is? I mean isn't that part of the process of hiring and saying that architect they can say here's our way that we would recommend the process. I think what Susan's saying and what I agree with is that you don't want like looking at this thing I'm like it could be six years. I mean if you're talking about applying for a grant four years from now Like we don't need we could get a design that Has this parameter like we need to do a few things now. How do we make this work? And those would lead to Yeah, they're all come out of this initial plan Yeah, we're talking about. But on that just one crazy thought I know I said sure foot has moved down to base village. What? What? Sure foot has moved to base village. Oh, atter one. Huh? Aren't they in both locations? No. Now they just have storage left at the there. They still have the They cater the store on the wall I think it be a great spot to rent and build some to the facilities for the for the bus right we do that tomorrow I mean I'm some plumbing issues we might have some plumbing issues to solve but that we actually already additional ones it's over a basement so we could get to it, right? It sits over some buses. Anyway, I mean, you said that's one of the key things. Well, it is. I mean, there, yes, it is a key factor. And there's also some safety things and accessibility. So anyways, is that like, do you hear what we're saying? Do we have? No, I don't, I'm sorry. Okay. We don't have to finish tonight. I just want to mean, I didn't know, I mean, I don't, honestly, it's like a two to one and I'm not exactly sure. I mean, and- Well, I think we're all saying the same thing. It's just coming out slightly different. But I think everyone's in agreement that talking to the stakeholders and figuring out, like, you know, are there partnerships or opportunities? What's most important to you? I think everyone's in agreement that talking to the stakeholders and figuring out, like, you know, are there partnerships or opportunities? What's most important to you? What is like a make or break for this design? How do you feel about the design? Raffta, does this design actually work? Raffta's critical. Right. Yeah, they get so. That's step one. Yes, that's clear. That's step one. we decide if we're going to gussie up the designs and make it presentable to the public and then looking for public. But I think one of the criteria in the design element part of it is figuring out what we could repurpose and do a little cleanup right now and not wait for the six to ten years until we can actually build the whole thing. Yeah and I just I think I agree that the designs got good enough that I was able to look at it and be like oh I like that but I think if we could take it once we have all these pieces of input so that we're not hopefully wasting too much money and we're able to incorporate that in it. I- get once we have all these pieces of input so that we're not hopefully wasting too much money and we're able to incorporate that in it. I see the benefit to taking, I mean, double level like transit centers are not sexy. Like there's nothing like that's going to be really appealing about that. So how do we make that? That's too... I mean I know you love that. No it's fine. It's fine. That was the time you thought it was. Six years of college and didn't use the orcs. But how can we make that like fit snowmass as best we can? Because that arrival experience is the thing that community members really did not feel good about. Whether if you were not a direct stakeholder, if there was nothing but I don't like that, it makes me feel like that's not snowmass. So that's I think what you're putting out there is exactly what I'm concerned with as well. But again, attempting not to waste money and doing it maybe not as far down as we've done an entire area plan, but we've done like we've coordinated with our partners to get that stuff in there I mean as long as we put a flashing mark key up. I think it's you know No, all right, I, I think we can come back to this. This is sort of like the maybe just an idea of how we figure out who we're talking to, you know, kind of so that we are aware of who's being conversed with and how we're going about it and the questions that we're asking and make sure that we're taking those right steps. I mean, obviously, Romero, we've all seen his plan. Like, that is a key stakeholder. That is, you know, like, I mean, he could be the key to the whole thing. So. Go. Talk to some people. We'll get some impressions. We'll come back. We'll tell you what we've heard. We can talk to more folks. I'll see you at my regular time, Monday, 7 to 8. OK. Great. The Cp is wrapped up. Yeah, oh no, of course. Of course. And I would say, and I'm going to, with at the mistake of speaking for rafta, if when they're paying $500,000, and they see a design that works, it's going to be a lot different than when they're in it for the types of money we were talking about. If when they're paying $500,000 and they see a design that works, it's going to be a lot different than when they're in it for the types of money we were talking about and they're going to have a bigger opinion on it. So yeah. Love to hear what they have to say. Yeah. Is it ready to check? Thank you very much. All right. I think we're good. Do you know any new jerk, do we? No, but the work session is now over, just so the TV knows and Theresa knows. Thank you very much. All right. I think we're good. You know, need you a jerk, do we? No, but the work session is now over just so the TV knows and Theresa knows. Thank you all for coming. Thank you. Improvisated. Thank you. Sorry, it took longer. you