the the Good afternoon. Today is Tuesday, October 8th. It is 5 p.m. I call to order the workshop of the Appalachicala City Commission. We please stand for the invocation and the pleasure of allegiance. Gracious Father, we come before you to give you glory to give you honor. We come before you to give you praise, oh God. Lord, we thank you for this place we call home. We thank you for the city of Appalachicala oh God. Lord, we thank you for this place we call home. We thank you for the city of Appalachia, Cola. God, and as we stand here before you, we ask that you will lend your grace and your mercy to our neighbors, oh God. Lord, we ask that you will bless those that are going through tornadoes and they are lost everything, oh God. And we ask that you will give them comfort, give them peace, oh God. What would we pray for mercy, God, for the, the our neighbors that are in the line of Milton, oh God, and we ask that you will just continue to keep us, continue to keep us focused on you, God. What as we stand before you, as we come before you to do the will of your people, God, we ask that you will grant us wisdom, knowledge and understanding. This we ask in your son Jesus name, amen. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the public for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible. Open it up. the opening up the meeting for public comment. Are there any public any members of the public that would like to make a comment. So we do not have public comment at this time so we will turn this over to Bri? Go ahead. Good afternoon. My name is Brett Hammond. I'm the firm principal at the Hammond Design Group Architect. We are in the architects with howlf doing the river wall. Our component of that is the poppum building. Dave cannot be here. He was traveling up from Key West this morning and has been locked in traffic as Dave Slider of how. With the idea what I wanted to do tonight is kind of go back quickly give a recap of the poppum building what we found And then my understanding we submitted it to Brie. It went before the grant administrators and they have approved our thoughts or our idea. But we need some input from the community on this particular building. This of course is the existing popp-em-building next slide, please, Travis. I'll go quickly through the front. Part of this was shown before. This is part of the original report. We went through and evaluated, we did entire methodology, structural engineers, architects, geotechnical engineers, and went through the entire building. I did a roofing assessment pile foundation, had the building 3D surveyed, but within the 16th of an inch of accuracy, and did those types of things. So, next slide. The executive summary, just to be quick recap, next slide. We did the introduction and so forth. If you quickly swing scroll through here, this is just kind of how we got there. Our first consideration, we started out with the approach that we were going to try to salvage the building, salvage the structure. And in order to do that based on historic standards, you have to do what's considered first considerations, which are not the glamour things that most people think of when they talk about historic renovation. Most people want to update the interiors, they want this that, you know, they. And really what stabilization and security means is that you do all the things that typically are the unglamorous things, the structural components, repair of the exterior, repair the roofing, you know, those type of things for health safety welfare. Secondary considerations then move into the building interior. Repair of historic elements, those types of things, electrical panels for whatever type of needs that you have. Mechanical configuration for, you know, HVAC, those types of things. And, you know, nowadays data, obviously, when the pop-up building the first Sunday One thing configuration toilets next slide, please However our conclusions come about is My recommendation is the building is too far gone Just try to salvage this building the cost of I'll show you a recap of cost pretty quickly But the building is too far gone for renovation. So our recommendation, and I will show you the cost analysis as we get there, is if you wish to build something or rebuild something that is a component that fits in the neighborhood, that can serve as a transitory space to a dock or something along those lines. But again, we're looking for input from you. We'll be happy to design it. We have the team ready sitting ready to do so. But that particular building is just too far gone to try to salvage the existing structure. And so a recommendation is to remove the building down to the platform, first toy platform, which is even going to surprise a lot of people because when you tear it down the area right out front, there is no first floor in it. Floor is heaved and there's really no floor on that first deck. So if you get out over the actual water, you physically have the original decking. And then secure that area. And the reason we want to do Scott is not here today, but the reason we suggested this is because if we remove the entire platform and things recolonize that area, which now would be covered and things are not growing there. But if you had vegetation or things recolonize that area, it could create problems for permitting down the road, environmental permit. Whereas if we leave it intact, secure it, put a fence around it. We can even put some historic plaques for something there to state what the building was and the significance to the location, those types of things until funding is secured to do a new building type. Then you come in and take that platform down and then build within that area that's still encompassed the old footprint of the building. Next slide, please in Compass the Old Foot Print of the Building. Next slide, please. We generated this just off of the existing structure. I'm not saying this is what I want to do. But I had to have something to generate a cost to say there was an apples to apples comparison. I had to look at the existing structure. And then we had to generate something that could be a comparable structure. So all we did was just kind of took the same profile and said, okay, if we just did an open area, you're currently at about 6,500 square feet. We're a good size structure, but I needed this in order to generate costing next slide. This is a structural assessment. I'm going to show you some quick photos of the various problems you have. Obviously, the roof is compromised, and the second floor is the roof structure is very compromised. Where it peel back the roof, I'll peel back during at least Michael. And what we're having is you have settling of the second store exterior walls. You have missing columns that they have cut physically. That's hard to see, but they cut that physical column. There's actually a steel bar running underneath the bottom of that wooden column to both two other columns. So those two other columns are picking up that dead load. And then the columns do not on an extreme right. The columns do not go or penetrate all the way through as would be required by current code and go into the substrate to mud substrate below as a pile. They're actually sitting on kind of a dead man or a spreader that actually sits. So essentially what he did was he built the platform deck, and then he put his spreader and then he threw the actual columns up to support the second story. So it's not even born directly down. So to try to even, if I could make this building structurally fail, it would be very difficult and costly. And that's because the actual physical columns not going all the way through. Next slide, please. This is what you have underneath it. The deteriorating pile is pretty common. Someone, and I'm assuming it goes back to the community grant, it was back in 2008, that talked about the Maritime Museum, doing work in the building over every year to try to bring the building up. So you see the pile that's right here, the split piling. Someone what they've done is come in and dug down as deep as they could go, tried to still pile up and put another pile on top of it. That is somewhat of a problem because that pile's not anchored in the mud. And what you're looking at here, you can kind of see, this is actually a side view looking south, but that flooring in there and the flooring which would be to your right, which would be out along Water Street, is completely gone. So when you tear the building down, you are still going to expose some dirt beneath with that. But I was showing the second story column, and the reason I showed that is because the secondary story column is not only is it, it got a severe bend in it, but you'll see where they've tried to shore up the bottom of it with the spreader. They've tried to tie that back together. Next slide, please, Travis. There's the second story up inside of it. I got up in it, but I wouldn't let staff go up in it. Isaac went up in it with the surveyors. The exterior walls are dropping as a crown in the second-scoring floor. And then you see that's in the center line, the floor damage that there is no floor inside of it. What you see on the extreme right-hand picture is the floor damage out over the river and there's really no floor there. I don't know. Next slide, please. These are, of course, are the surveys. You saw these back in July. So you can actually visit these are surveyed with lasers and how they do it, to within a 16th of an inch of tolerance. So it physically shows how the building is really kind of collapsing in on itself. And you can even see in one on the left, if you look at the roof, you can see it's obviously picking certain things up up there to whether you can see the roof damage along that side. Next slide please, private. Again, these are just views and you can see that the upper one is a plan view up top with each small one and then there's a cut through it and the arrow shows the direction you're physically looking back to the river, back to water stream, those types of things. So you can kind of get a feel for what the interior of this structure is. is, next slide please. Again, same type of thing. So it's really, you can see the building collapsing on itself. When I've been in it, and there's two different locations where I saw you, at some point in time, you'd had transient people sleeping in it. You can't get in the building. I've been in it a couple of times. And it certainly probably won't make your local attorney fuel warm and fuzzy just a thought process there. Somebody gets heard in it with a building something fall during the time heard somebody. It would be a liability. I'm not certain it's an attractive nuisance, but it certainly be a problem. Next slide, slide please Travis. I'm curious if any contrasting. I looked at it, you know, we were trying to get visual photographs of what in of where it was. This of course is the these are the photographs of what the building looks like right now both from Water Street and the South elevation. Next slide. And then when I did I wanted to go back and look at what the building looked like when the city acquired the building in 2008 is my understanding. And you can see a dramatic difference in the shape of the building even from an easer pool from Google. Essentially your 2008 we went back and pulled these photos off of Google to show you, you know, give you an idea of the difference. You can see to the right looking, this is this would be the western elevations I'm looking east, which you can see the collapsing part of the southern elevation is starting to fall into 2024 where as in 2008 when you acquired the building you didn't have that problem. Next slide, please, fellas. Same thing here, 2008 elevation, south looking north. And you can see the building is beginning to collapse in on itself on the photograph to the physical right. Right? These are the costs to try to renovate the building. I think you're hovering about 10 and a half million dollars to try to do it. There's no practical way and I don't know if anybody was involved when the previous mayor hired the structural engineer out of Panama City. Did a grant report that there's no practical way to do what he's recommending? The report states that piles would be driven 20 to 30 feet deep. The only way to pull that off is to remove, lift the structure, move it inland, physically drive the piles, move the structure back over top of it, and set it on a new pile foundation. The problem you have there is I don't think the building will stand to move. Now I'm not saying, you know, I talked to Ducky Johnson, I did, spent some time discussing it. But I think the shoring inside just the whole building together to move it would be significantly expensive. And that's not repairing the building. That's just to hold it up and keep it in place. Whereas if you built something new, I think you're looking at about 6 million, that would be a building built to current code, that would withstand heaven for bed more storms, and function for the community long term, whereas the restoration of the one building versus building new, certainly you don't have grant money available because it's no longer a historic structure. Doesn't mean we can't sort of look to recreate the profile. That's what people want. Again, I'm going to show you some options. I think you all got a copy of our presentation. I will show you some ideas we came up. And we, please understand me. We have no preconceived notions. We were just kind of trying to throw something out there. We need your input. We need to community. This, of course, with what we did up front, 6,500 square feet. Next slide. This shows, of course, the original, the entirety of the pop-up building. You can see in the upper left. Don't want to make any bones. I've never been a real attractive structure. Certainly it's working waterfront. And you can see the linoff lot. It was been demoed actually to physically to what you currently have now. So what was there originally and what you have now is significantly different. Just the photo collage you can see. Again we did the historic stuff too so we have all the history of the building. Next slide. We came up with some options. These are quite a bit smaller again and it was just to kind of give you an idea of what we could do. We could do an open air previan. We could match similar profiles. Do those types of things. It could function, you know, provide any Catholic festival ramp. Give you the ability to move out uses as a transitory space to go to a future dock. There's a dock out there in the river. I think Dave is working on that right now. So you can have that open air for me. And again, I don't want anybody getting excited about the square footage. We can make it whatever size you want. We just thought, you know, look, if a 6,500 square foot building costs you $5.9 million. Then a 2,500 square foot building, probably, you know, just rough numbers, about 2.5 million dollars. If you're seeking grant funding, you know. So, but again, we can even grow it. We show a dashed line to the rear. We can project it out further into the river. You know, if you pull out, you're pulling up next to water street and trying to match up profile, we could stretch it back. Do those types of things. Next slide, please, Shannon. We also look at the possibility of doing the same type of thing, but trying to enclose two sides, doing potentially providing toilets. Again, it's just an idea. It doesn't mean it has to happen. Or creating something potential, some sort of a vendor space, if you wanted to push a cup of coffee across, or a ship store, or something along those lines. Again, same sort of profile, same sort of look of the existing building. Roof is a little bit different but not terribly, but it does give you that kind of look, next time please. Then we try to change and play with, you know, changing the coop lot. Doing an open air coopola up top, but putting a hip roof on it, as well as again the same idea of the toilet rooms or future possible potential vendor space. And the only reason I throw those out there is, as we design this, we need to know that's why we need the input from you. And the reason we need the input from you is if you want toilet or you want power, you want those types of, we need to incorporate that now is if you want toiletry, you want power, you want those types of things. We need to incorporate that now so that when you do put it on the street to build it, those things are there. You've got the design documents for it. It's the same, it works with the same view. We just enclosed the cupola up top, but again, the same type of thing. Excellent, please. That was it. But we're looking for input from here so that we can design this and move this out, so you'll have it. The idea is based on my understanding of the grant is that we would prepare demolition documents to bring the building down to the platform. We would help you figure out a design system to secure the fight so that people are not physically using it. And then we would generate construction documents for some type of building structure that you all in the community want. And then that would be able you put that shelf ready and seek grant funding or ways to build the building. And with regard to that. And again, I don't want to beat it at horse, but we do an awful lot of work for Wacala County. It's amazing to me that, you know, the county administrator over there in the last five years, I attended a workshop here in Wacala, my last five years have secured over a third of a billion dollars in grant funding, $330 million over a five-year period of time. So it's out there, and I know what he does, and the only thing I know is because today I went to an open bid opening for their EOC building. And we designed that building two years ago. It's set on the shelf and they use that to chase money. So we've done a lot of those types of things where we'll do the designs up front for them. They park on one shelf and it gives the granted administrator things that they can seek direction for to seek money to build those and get those things completed. So with regard to that. But we are certainly open and for comment and want anything you all can help us do. We can expand it, we can reduce it. You know, those types of things, but I see right now based on the geotechnical reports, I think the previous structural report the one that was done in Panama City, my structural engineers believes their 30-foot pile is not 20. But I'm looking at the idea behind what we thought was, we come in, remove that, you get a building, we're talking about concrete piles driven to code, they will secure the structural bearing necessary for the building's survival storm. And then build a platform top that could either be open air or if you want to enclose it, that's up to you. We would just need some input. I think it's been discussion. I had a discussion with Bri and Travis at one time about having venues or next month month you have the seafood festival down in that area, we could put educational plaques inside the building, outside the building, either before and after the building is built, that would allow people to understand what the working waterfront, how important the pop-up building had been to the working waterfront. You could also serve as an anchor to the south side of the new river walk. Excuse me, I apologize. I've been sick for six weeks. But to give you a south side anchor, as you walk forward, you know, walk up the river walk towards a great complex, on up to the eating establishment. So I see this as an opportunity. I came into it with my eyes wide open. I've done some challenging buildings in my day, and I'm willing to take on a very challenging building. But I don't think financially it is in the city's best interest. Thank you. I'm going to open it up for the commissioners to ask questions. But, brief before we move on to that, can you, will you remind us what the lemma, having the pop and building into the riverfront grant poses? the Okay. So the last decision that the City Commission made on this, you voted for staff to ask commerce for the partial demolition plans for the scope of work to change instead from renovation to a new set of plans, securing the space and signage on the scope of work to change instead from renovation to a new set of plans, securing the space and signage on the exterior of the history and kind of what's going on. Commercine to prove that, it's now part of our scope of work. So the CDBG funding, that's exactly what it's going to pay for. So the conversation is very much what do you want to plan for after the partial demolition? So did I understand you correctly that the partial demolition is included in the CDBG grant? Yes. And that cost do we have a cost on that? Brett has provided some preliminary cost. Do you want to speak to that? Yeah, I don't think there's any problem with the idea of probably some preliminary cost. Do you want to speak to that? Yeah, I don't think there's any problem with the idea of probably some demolition. You've got, I believe, a cyber call, $3.5 million in the actual grant funding. I don't recall exactly what the dollar amount was. It's around that in total. It's broken out by locations and the pop and building it had around 300,000. So this is actually, it fits much better with the grant to pay for the demo and the pop and building it had around 300,000. So this is actually, it fits much better with the grant to pay for the demo and the plan set. And then we can have it ready to apply for funding to build. I think that's doable. We're certainly well, we're available and have no problem developing the demolition documents to include in the first phase, which would be demoing it down, assuming there's money. And I think in talking to Dave, there is some money in the grant to do that. Securing it with Fencing. And we have the entire history of the structure as well. So if you wanted to generate plaques or, and I don't know if the historic society, I've said it on several historic boards, chased state plaque money, you know, the cast sign cast aluminum plaques or photographs or you're certainly will certainly help you produce all the photographs that we have. If you wanted to do some sort of educational exhibit, put something along that line in this first part. And then the actual construction documents would be something that you'd have available to you, to park on a shelf and use to chase funding opportunities, grant, those types of things. And the funding for the construction documents are also included in the CDBG? Yes, there's not gonna be any needed increase. It's all covered in what we've already planned for. We would just shift years. After we did the strike, in our contract, we did the historic and structural report analysis, and then we were gonna move into developing the construction documents for the historic renovation. But after we completed the historic analysis and the structural analysis, the building, we kind of shut it off and stopped it. We still have the money to do the construction documents. I have the design team, the structure engineers, all on board to do all of it. So it's just a matter of working with you to develop what you'd like to see the building become as a new building as a new structure. If you want to mirror the existing building, we can do that. We can make it match the size. We can reduce the size. Again, I looked at it and we just threw those out as ideas. There's nothing, please understand me, just all the time. There's nothing permanent about what we put up on the screen tonight. It's entirely up to you as a camp community, the city, and the people you assign to help us get it built or get designed it. And then we would do this full set of design documents that would be shovel ready so that when you see money come available or you're chasing money for something specific, you have something in front you can walk in and say this is what we want to do. Commissioner Grove, thank you. Thank you appreciate the work put into it. I'd like to hold on the last bit of it that I'm like to hold on to the last bit of it that I'm coming to the conclusion that that's definitely not possible. I feel like the surprise that hasn't fallen down already. However, I would like to, couple of things, I wanna make sure that the documentation that you've done that we package it and get it to the library and the historical society so that these photographs and things will be, you know, documentation of the building won't get just put on a shelf at City Hall and not accessible to anybody because I think it's the last of the pop-up buildings. Absolutely. We'll be happy to share anything we have. You know, that's certainly, you know, we're working for Dave, but we're all working for you. Yeah. Happy to share the entire report, any photographs, the historic research done. Yeah, I thought it'd be great. Our findings, you know, the structural analysis, the entire package is yours for the asking, and we can hate concepts, whatever, whatever we ultimately do. It might be good to leave with Bree too, as people find out they might want to examine the documentation for themselves. But I'd just like to have it as, you know, for, for, um, in perpetuity. I, I feel like, um, I'm worried it does, does the money that we're using for the demolition and the Fencing and all of that. Does that cover the stabilization of the pilings or so how are we going to that will need to be done also? I don't know exactly to be honest with you, Commissioner Grove. It's in such poor shape that I would say the surrounding areas where the floors are heaved, I would get rid of that aspect of it and just take it out. Anywhere where the actual decking, and it's about two inches thick, most of the decking in the original two-story structure is about two inches thick, where the floors are heaving are on a shed roof that surround the two-story structure. Okay. So, to try to stabilize it any more than you already have, I'm not certain I would spend the money on that. What I would do is kind of clean it up. Obviously, I hate to call it an attractive nuisance, but it really kind of is. Obviously, I hate to call it an attractive nuisance, but it really kind of is. So, and secure it so it doesn't become a transient hangout. Right. What I'm worried about is that we come up with these plans and then we say, oh, but it's going to cost, I would imagine, a lot of money to put new piling sand. It will. It will. That's, is that included in some of these costs too? It would be included in the actual design would be included in the physical in what we have now. Yes, you are correct. There's no way to save the piles that are currently under the poppability. First of all, most of them are in pre-tuff shape. I have no idea the depth. So I don't think that even the current piles, you know, you say pile stabilization, if I follow you correctly, they could you build on top of the existing, no, that's what I know. No, really, it would not comply with current code. You know, we just went through a code modification January of 2024 for the next Florida building code. And each time from 2000 to 2008, 2013, where we are now, your wind speeds keep climbing. Oh, yeah. And so. That's kind of what I was thinking is, I just want to make sure that we all realize that that doesn't include, we're not going to walk away and just have a platform out there. It's still going to have to be cordoned off and protected. Yeah, the cordoned off. My thought process is to remove anything, the second story, remove the walls, salvage anything that the city might want to salvage. And that's what I would really like to salvage some of the metal, some of the flooring and wood in there. Really cool doors on the north side. But I think that that's important to salvage that and reuse it for the new building. But my other question is the waterfronts, I don't think it was waterfronts for community affairs, gave us the money for the original purchase of the building. Do they have a problem with us tearing it down? I mean, they don't exist anymore. But I think we need to check with the original granter and see if there's any. I spoke with the Florida community when we stressed people yesterday. Okay. They still exist. FCT still does, because we still do reports for them. Oh, okay. In fact, I have to amend one of my reports. I was talking to the lady yesterday, and I told her that we were having this meeting today. And whatever we decide to do, we still have to run it through them and get their approval. According to her, they're not going to be well. They're going to not be as picky about what we build as they are about what our use for that will be. They won't education, recreation and conservation. That's the three things that they like. So with education I said well we could put informational kiosks, we don't know matter what we do or we could have you know educational classes or something. Well I think it's a preserve into history and showing it on walls. And as long as they approve that we're being together. And I know we talked about using this as a space where people could have meetings and events, not like this, but just like, no, it's on the waterfront. It's open. We have several venues that are like that. And so I would rather see us go smaller than that big footprint than was the 650. The existing footprint is 6500 square feet. 6,000 miles. Is that two stories? You're two. Yeah, well you've got the major footprint and you've got the little area up top. But we looked at the overall. And then so what we did was shrunk it. Obviously, where we show the coupons upstairs, we would not put a deck up there, we just have it at an open air. And the reason being is the Florida Building Code, the accessibility code, if you do something up there, it's mandated that you provide vertical accessibility. I think it'd be fine just to be a nod to that open gable in facing into town. I don't think I know a hip just to be a nod to that open gable in facing into town. I don't think I know a hip roof would be safer for wind, but I think the gable is indicative of what was down there. So. Thank you, Commissioner Grove. Commissioner George. I think since you were last here, it sounds like the plan has sort of evolved as far as the stabilization of the structure because if you remember Mike concerned before is that we were going to have the missed opportunity of having funds today to take care of whatever demolition we needed to do you know for some future funding prospect. So it makes your understanding. So at this point, then the $300,000 that was originally allocated for the pop and building portion of the grant will now stay with that building. That is my understanding was, some of that money that was originally obligated. Our fees are already covered. They're in that. We've already committed and contracted with Alph. So I have the design fees to prepare the demolition documents and the new design. That's in on. Now, again, I think based on my discussion today, there was money in there that could be utilized for the demolition to bring it down to that. Okay, because that sounds like that's a change because before it was going to be just stabilized as it was as well as we could. That's what we originally intended. So when you say down to the platform, you mean we're the building they were going for a Ford act. But just the debt not mall. So basically, we'll be in. The walls completely off. You'd have an open platform out there with a fence. Okay, so that would it would basically be a demolition. I mean, all the things were worried about happening would no longer be that's my thinking is that you know, I said they're two different bed rolls in there when I was in it here six months ago And so you go well people are obviously thinking around of course getting in and setting up and making So that would be open that way, you know the sheriff's department of city police they drove by You know way anybody could be out on top of it without being in trouble. And so we would try to secure it as best we could with chain link fence, blackthub, or just, I can say an interim. I'm not saying long term, but just any interim so that people understand what was there and the importance of the site and significance. And then hopefully have the documents rolled up, he start pursuing or looking at potential grant opportunities to chase other funding resources and sort the idea of demoing it from the platform down and doing the new fraction of the building. Okay, well I think that's a much better plan. I mean, I'm skeptical about what kind of grant funding will be able to get going forward for this type of project. So I'm in favor of spending as much money of the grant as possible to taking care of our problems today. So this is kind of good news for me. That was to be honest with you. That was one of the reasons I shrunk the footprint. It's not a library. It's not an EOC building. It's not a community center. It's not the things that you typically think of when you ask for grant funding. So when I did it, I thought, you know, do I propose a 6,500 square foot footprint or $6 million building? I don't know where that grant funding is coming from either. I don't. Now I think there are probably ways of writing grants necessarily. And again, working waterfronts or educational facilities on working waterfronts or those types of things I don't know. But that was one of the reasons we kind of shrunk it down and thought you know we're going to work inside the existing footprint and put it back to a $2.5 million structure. You know that you might be able to pursue you know something like that? Again, Carnegie's Donate Money Library. Deepwater Horizon, Donate Money for Communication System. The EOC building in Mochelle County has got $7.5 million from various funding sources. Deepwater Horizon and Department before to think them out. But again, those money do exist. I think it has to be, you know, like say, they take the drawings that a lot of things that we've done and they tailor their requests, whether it's fur-dap grant money for park structures, whether it's depot or horizon money, based on the building and the building and the need, the community need. But it's fairly, you know, a lot of work from there, and it impresses when it comes to grant funding. And this probably isn't on your side, but on the city side, I think we get into the demolition, we need to consult with local craftsmen about salvaging that wood and architectural features from the building. Because there's a lot of several men here that are keenly interested in the history of that building. I have a lot of knowledge of. There's several women too. Several men and Anita. I mean, I have a lot of conversation with Dan Garland. You know, I had a long time. I had several conversations with Dan Garley, you know, and the guys, you know. I'm growing up there, I'm drinking rum in there. It's a great building. It's going to go damn. One of the last time you were in there. Really, it's in tough shape. In 2008, if you had had the money to tackle it in 2008, I think based on the exterior photographs alone, probably could have tackled it. After all the lack of upkeep on it, and Hurricane Michael and the continued degradation of the wood, my structural engineer wouldn't go in it. He just told me, he just told me flat out, Brad, I've seen enough. I can look underneath it. I can look at the exterior of it. I can look in the home. I'm not going that building. I put on the second floor three times. I mean my preference would be as minimal as possible. Like not not an open air I mean if I mean that question whether there should be a structure there at all as you know but if we're going to put a structure there I think we should recognize where you're putting a structure where I mean there's a reason the pop and building looks the way it does today because of the vulnerable area where it's located and there's not really land there. So that would be my preference as a lower cost open air as minimal as possible building. So thank you. Thank you commissioners yours commissioners. Thank you. I agree with the rest of my fellow commissioners. I think that we do need to prioritize getting that building secured Getting as much demolition work done as possible for it Since the beginning I have been a proponent of removing this building Unfortunately, it doesn't make a ton of sense to try and salvage it. The cost would be about 10 million, 5 million for new construction would be much more ideal. And I have a feeling that if we went back in time and asked some of our ancestors, if they would prefer, if we wasted 5 million dollars or did something else beneficial for our community with that, they'd probably say do something more beneficial for the community with it. So looking forward to plans of what we could do there. I actually agree with Commissioner George. I am unsure if a new structure should be placed in that exact location. Looking at the entire area of Battery Park and Battery Park Arena in the old ball field there. We know that this is the focal point of our downtown when you come off the bridge. It's the first thing you see. It's where the seafood festival happens. Our most popular boat launch in the county happens to do you right there, which is also making money now. And something that building is going to do is cost a lot of money, just because we get grant funding to build it. That is not going to pay for the annual bills upkeep an insurance. We've already had a reckoning this year during budget season about how unaffordable a lot of our buildings are and our insurance rates, which we've thankfully been able to work on some this year. So to me, the feature of that space and what should be built there needs to be something that's functional and can be tied to battery park marina And that is because that marina produces Income and it will be able to pay the bills to upkeep there And if there's something that we can do that ties that into our working waterfront That also opens us up to the very real possibility of Triumph funds which this building was supposed to be tied to from the beginning. So if we were to do something in that regard, we might get a little more traction with them in this day. And in the sense of if we were to go forward, you know, with going towards an open air pavilion, going towards what some other business owners are doing downtown with music venues and open air venues, I think that would be a great source of income for the city but as somebody that works in the hospitality industry works frequently with brides and corporations and other parties that have these large expensive events. I at this point in time without a plan for management in place for that building. I am not confident the city could provide the level of quality or customer service for people that are having the best day of their life. So I think that any sort of plan that is made going forward needs to actually realistically consider. Can we afford, do we have a projected cost of the annual upkeep and bills for it? What even a projected revenue income for the building itself would be and how we're going to make it attractive historically, educationally and economically on paper to receive grants for it. Thank you, Commissioner Elliott. When do you need to know, when do you need a decision from this body? So the timeline we're up against right now, and while we kind of pressed it all for a decision when we did, commerce has we kind of pressed off for decision when we did. Commerce has been kind of slow to the jump when we ask for amendments. So we made a decision, we're locked in. We have until September of 2025 to get this done. Now on Brett's end, I know you can put the plans together quick. He's relying on direction from the commission as far as the partial demolition. That's something you can go ahead and be working on the signage the fencing those are Not a concern, but if this project gets The workshopping of it gets dragged out for five to six months. It would put a lot of pressure on Brett's team to Done within the time one Okay, so if we were to give a generic vision, our concept tonight, you can move forward. Be happy to move forward and be happy to bring ideas or thoughts back to you for your consideration at another workshop or do a presentation before... The community and the other community that have been working on this. You know, what would you want to do? I do, but I do need some direction. Like I say, we can develop the construction documents for the demolition. That's not a big deal. And then kind of securing the site, doing that type of thing. That could be part of the September 2025 documents. But again, like Brie said, they're trying to get those out now so that they can be bid the beginning of the year to get started. That timeline, like developing the demolition documents on an issue. I'm happy to work with you to develop. So I do want to clarify, that is part of your task orders now, is the partial demolition down to the bottom level. There's not much leeway on that. Commerce is signed off. It's our go-to. We do that. That's not a problem. And that developed the actual design documents we need we need some direct Group or Happy to work with you to try to come together. Develop something that makes sense, that we could build there, or it might get smaller. It might be a key off that moves out of the mud flat, back closer to water street. You know, those types of things can all occur. I just need the direction at the what you wish to do. So let us if we can give you some type of guidance I just need the direction at the what you what you wish is. So let us if we can give you some type of guidance within the next 10 minutes. So. So what I've heard is from the consensus we're okay with open air. Yes. Smaller than the 6500 square feet. So do we have what are we looking? Yes. Smaller than the 6500 square feet. So do we have, what are we looking, what do you think? 3000, half the size? We're 25. We're 25. We're 25 now. I showed you. I showed you. We showed you. We did that in part. So the destructural systems would work off of off the shelf materials. You know, we're fixing nothing, nothing bigger than a 16 foot unit, so that, you know, we're not having to buy custom lumber, timber, same thing with the concrete piles, concrete piles or something that, you know, you have red access to availability too. That's why we, you know, plus the fact that I just looked at it and said, you know, you have red access availability too. That's why we, you know, plus the fact that I just looked at it and said, you know, I suppose a six million dollar structure is absolutely no understanding where you're going to get the money I was concerned about doing that. So we just kind of said, okay, we've got it out here. Let's throw something out to give you something. There was no. Now what do we, um, 15 to 25? What do you think? the 15 to 25 what do you think 1500 to 2500 for feet and I heard commission Elliott say tie into the working waterfront and the battery park. I don't know what that looks like. I'm not really sure if, because the building is being considered as a separate part of the project from the docks and the docks work correct or is it going to be kind of reasonable? It really is. It's just associated as all us doing the design work but again, since you only had to three and a half million dollars in a grand, to commit you to a ten and a half million dollar project, which is just over the open. So, with regard to that, I don't know exactly where Dave's at. I know Dave has got most of his drawings done for the docs, and I don't know exactly what, that's specific doc. I know he's done a lot of work on the northern docs. And if anybody of you have any of my apologies know he's done a lot of work on the northern part. And everybody on the A&M Apology, he's not here to respond. I can kind of speak to that. They're very close. Our kind of time on right now is we're hoping to bid these out at the start of the new year. We're more so waiting on environmental clearance right now than we are at the plan sets to be done. Dave's made good progress. They're very close. We're just kind of waiting on environmental. Also, I do want to point out I know we're talking about square footage and it can be hard to visualize. Me and another staff member had measured this building when the whole Orman thing was going on. And the visual space of this, including those back restrooms, is right under 1,400 square feet feet and if you look at the building from the street and you We have time that we can perhaps appoint a couple of people to work on this and then get it back. Perhaps a commissioner, you, Bury, and then I don't know if we want to include a citizen to kind of a concept in so that we have general ideas and then kind of pull something together. What's logical? I mean, what are your thoughts on that? I do, I do really like that idea. Also, for the next time we do workshop this, it sounds like we all agree, yes, to structure, yes to open air, we'll talk about square footage and possible usage. I would like to put it on Facebook, the paper, make sure everybody's aware we're talking about this, This meeting, it didn't work by the time we scheduled it to get it into the paper, which I was kind of disappointed by. So for the next one, we'll kind of put it everywhere. I do like the idea of a commissioner, me, somebody that y'all choose from the community or wants to volunteer to really get into brainstorming. So then the next workshop, we can be a little more productive with the details. My office would be happy to work with Bri and send her concepts, get to your studies. If she wants to do so, you'll be able to do so. All as well, I'm okay with that. I mean, I know you guys cannot come together outside the Sunshine Law. I understand that. You know, but my potentially be able to respond directly to Bree. I like this. I don't like that. I'd be happy to be happy to do concept studies, send them to her and let her distribute them to you and work directly back to her so that she's a single one. I think you can kind of hear from you. I'm okay with that as well. So we have some general ideas of how we want to move forward and then you, Bri, you and Brett can work together and come up with something. We want to set a tentative next workshop is a month too soon. No, no. In fact, it wouldn't be if it if as it unfolds the way I see it would be we would generate concept studies working with you and you could put them with whoever. So we come to the table next time with ideas. Okay. Whoever you want to bring and then in the workshop, let them tell us what they like or dislike or those types of things. Okay. I do like that idea for your side of it. When you come back with options, maybe just a couple different, like you did with the African American Museum, different visuals, even three, and it gives you a direction, and then different square footed options and how that might look. Okay. Yes, ma'am. I'm not familiar with that. I've walked between the building and the fish house right there. Get us how I've accessed the building. Climbed up. Pull them up. Pull them up. Pull them up. And then get them up on land. I'm not familiar that I've walked between the building and the fish house right there get a tough access to building climbed up on the deck and then you kind of feel your way around to get around inside the building and then wandered around inside of it. And typically where I've spent most time is under the two stories structure and in the top of the second story because the other areas around us are out of fallen apart. So I can ask a question. If we are going to aim for the next month, it's kind of a quick time one for us to get together if it's Commissioner Me and a citizen. Do you all have anybody in mind or from specific organization or group that you want us to reach out to? We could just do, I mean, the paper kind of has a lag from when you can get it into the paper. Facebook is the quickest way to reach people. I don't know if we want to do like a summit. Coach Perkins? A summit. Are you here, yeah? I'm all. You hear me? I'm all on duty. Do we? It's long as y'all tell me who to work with, I'm good to hit the ground running. Yeah. There's some people who know this. Yeah. So it's toss out some, well not tonight. Um, brief, you can just kind of get some names and toss them out or what have you or if you just want to go ahead and start working with Brett and we just start moving forward and we can schedule it for. Um, it worked well for me. It worked well for me. Yeah, that's election day. So, but did we decide to still have our regular meeting that day at the same time? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. earlier this year and when he decided. So let's kind of wrap this one up. We have five minutes before the next meeting. So, Marie. Which commissioner urges all? We talked about me working directly with the commissioner and a citizen member and bread, impossible uses., I mean I can send things out to everybody but if there's going to be one point person to really go back and forth with if you all just pick somebody. And that's good. I would like to volunteer commissioner Greg to tell us for a familiarity with the existing. I think so. I agree. So we have commission Gros, Marie. My interest is high, my time is limited, but my interest is high. And so from this, we put on Facebook and ask if anybody else is interested and then we'll go through the motions of getting a community member. So if there's no further business before this body regarding the pop and building, they the community. We will see you in the next session. If there is no further business before this body regarding the pop-up building what have emotion to a adjourn? I have a motion by commissioner Elliott, a second by commissioner. four minutes. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I'm going to go to the next one. I there. I there. I there. I there. I there. I there. I there. I there. I there. I there. I there. the Thank you.