you you I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. Good evening. Good evening. Good. Good. All right. Welcome to the October meeting of the Finance Government Operations and Economic Development Committee. This room has a hearing loop. If you need hearing assistance, switch your hearing aids to telecoil mode. If you need a headset, we have those available as well. Please see the clerk to request one. We'll begin with the adoption of our consent agenda. We have nine items proposed for consent and they are. Item two, quarterly report, upcoming contracts, second quarter, FY25. Item 6, contract renewal, architectural services for building renovations. Item 7, contract award, architectural services. Item 8, contract award, and FY25 capital improvement program, amendment construction of the crisis receiving and stabilization center. Item 9, Contract Award Construction Engineering and Spection Services for Route 9 and Route 287 roundabout. Item 10, Contract Award, Roadway and Civil Design Services for Route 15 and Bratwick Road roundabout. Item 11, Award Authority Increase 911, Equipment 911, Equipment and Emergency Notification Software and Services. Item 12, Award Authority Increase, Educational notification software and services. Item 12, award authority increase, educational software solutions and services. Item 13, FYCY 25 payment standards and utility allowance for the housing choice voucher program. I will make a motion to approve the consent agenda as their second. Seconded by supervisor Briskman, any discussion on the consent agenda? Discussion on the consent. Hearing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Motion carries, 5-0. We are pleased to be joined by Supervisor Takoni for a portion of our meeting tonight. We have a really long agenda. This actually may be the longest agenda I have ever seen in the Finance Committee. So we're going to do our best to try to move it along. We will take a break at some point in for the board to grab some dinner and improve our moods hopefully. But we will go ahead and get started with information item number one, which is our monthly Department of Economic Development reports. Good evening, Mr. Reiser. Good evening, Mr. Reiser. Good evening, everyone. In front of you, you have the DEED annual report for FY24. As they have been for much of the last decade, the numbers are really great. 164 wins, $7.8 billion in investment and more than 5,000 jobs. We also had a great year for economic diversity with lifestyle businesses in retail at 36 wins, rural 33 wins. We also saw significant momentum in the cluster such as health, highly specialized manufacturing, ICT, and logistics. But what we wanted to highlight this year was the people and the faces of Loudon. Inside you'll find nine great stories of local business leaders who are leading the way in our community. We'll be delivering hard copies to your office. And there's a great digital version too at our website biz.loudin.gov slash annual report. August is the most recent month for local unemployment data. The rate was 3.2 for Loudin compared to 2.7 for Virginia and 4.2 for the US. The jobs report released last week showed unemployment was 4.1 for the US in September. Nationally jobs increased by 254,000 in September, which was above expectations. And supports the notion that the economy is having a soft landing as was referenced in discussions about the Fed lowering the interest rate. There are currently 15,983 active jobs open in Louten County as of September, with 3,220 newly posted jobs in the month. Eda Cad, Renee Halton, the Vice President of the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond at their meeting on Friday, great, great presentation. She said that the economy is doing well, expectations around a 2% growth rate this year and into 2025. Unless there is a major shock to the economy there is no recession expected this year or next. Quick reminder that the annual fall farm tour is coming up next weekend October 19th and 20th this features one of the largest number of farms participating we've ever had and some really new farms that we're very excited about. Which is a great transition for our update on the USDA Farm Market and Local Food Promotion Program. In 2020, the Department applied for N was awarded a multi-year $250,000 grant to determine the effectiveness of the loud and made loud and grown marketplace and to increase access to local, loud and food products with the goal of increasing loud and food products with a goal of increasing loud and food production. Building on the data we received from these studies, DED pivoted towards a more traditional way of increasing the access to local foods through increased education and marketing efforts for producers and consumers. We overhauled our loud and farms website and marketplace in line with the recommendations. We offered continuing education opportunities in conjunction with our partners and we host the stakeholder workshops and events to identify opportunities for our farms and rural businesses. We have implemented nearly all of the recommendations from the grant related to marketing, education, mentoring and resource allocation. As a result of these efforts, the county actually saw a big increase in sales over the last few years. Farm markets increase from 12 to 14, on farm stands increase from 15 to 23, and of course we had the opening of the Love It's Fill Cooperative Market. Observation from the various studies conducted suggests that loud and strength continues to be direct to consumer market. The number of small to mid-sized farms and specially products lend themselves to this market and we will continue to support these operations. The full study is in your item tonight and with that before we take questions I'll turn it over to the REDC Chair Kelly Fulton. The REDC Chair. I haven't been here in a year. How are you all? Thank you. So some of the things that REDC has been collaborating on is we are looking forward to working further with trying to accelerate our marketing programs and how we can get products out to various consumers. We'd love to get into some of the HOAs and see how we can get that all of our products in there. We're also just had an update with Colleen today on seeds for success and getting some various programs together. We're putting ideas out in front of her to get a 2025 program for our rural businesses and structures for that. We have had speakers every month. We've had the Agtech finalists come in. We have had one of the drone aviation farms come in and talk to us. Just today we had Jill Kovalgin give us a talk on and an update on the arts program. So we continue to have those and they've been very successful. And they've been. And I did want to introduce John Majestro. He is our business development officer for rural businesses and business services. We're happy to take any questions. That's Danny, thank you very much. Thanks for the update. We have questions. We'll start with members of the committee. Start on the subject here, Randall. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good evening, everybody. Buddy, congratulations. I will see you on Thursday. Congratulations to be in one of the 50 most imptentant people in Northern Virginia stacking on top of all the other mini awards you so richly deserves. And for you it was one. Thank you. And by the way, the numbers are always amazing. Ms. Folkman, I just want to ask you a quick question or a favor actually. Recently there was a bit of a discussion about an equine quarantine center. And I realized that some of my colleagues may not have been aware or let it don't privy to some of these conversations and some of the data and information that's been put together on those. On that, we've been talking about this for years. Do you mind sending me any information you have on that issue just so I can share it out with people? I'm happy to do that. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks everybody. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks everybody. Thank you. Sir, Rosar Brasquil. Thank you, Chair LaTerno. And thank you for the great annual report. I love the faces of Loudon and we really really showed a lot of diversity in the report, and hopefully we will continue to have a lot of diversity in our economy. And I also wanted to say congratulations on named one of the 50 most influential folks in Northern Virginia, so congratulations. So we have a lot of influence in our room with us tonight. Any other questions or comments for Mr. Wright? And I tell Scott that he did not hear any of that, so that okay, thank you very much. Not hear any of that. Thank you very much. Not here any of that. Thank you very much. All right, thank you very much. Appreciate you being with us tonight. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Next up is overview of our Director of Information Technology. We're going to provide an overview of the Workforce Innovation Program. And Charlie, we call it the Learners Program. So we'll refer to that throughout the presentation. I'm joined by Julie Krim. She's our IT Business Manager and Scott Boggs from the Metropolitan Council of Governments. We'll refer to it as COG throughout the meeting and he is the managing director there. So. Thank you and welcome to that on time. Thank you, sir. So I'd also like to acknowledge the collaboration on this program by call, Rush, our chief equity officer, and Michael Drager, our deputy director of human resources. Scott and I will be doing the presentation, so we'll get rid of it right into it with a background slide. You can go to the next one. So the Learners program was in our proposed budget and it was recognized, we recognized that there was an opportunity for a mentor-driven program to develop local talent and to support non-traditional sources and to support our technology projects and our social and racial equity resolution. Year one of the program is included in our adopted budget and this summer we worked with the county work with COG and we're here tonight to talk to you about that and what that program entails. So the goals for the program were to develop under utilized talent for IT careers within our local community through on the job training and mentoring led by COG. Secondly, to provide additional staffing support for county IT projects and then lastly to create a pipeline of local talent to fill future county vacancies. And with that I'll turn it over to Scott. Thanks John. So right now as many of you are aware we at Cog host many regional programs and loud and county participates in those things like the automated fingerprint identification system, the national capital region, geospatial data exchange and these are hosted by Cog that's been in the process of making sure that the system is in place. And these are hosted by Cog because it's makes the most sense to have a neutral party that's hosting a program that multiple jurisdictions are participating in. So Cog is providing you a trusted partner with the systems that are already in place for this pilot program. And hopefully we will extend this to other parts of our membership and even outside of the traditional college membership footprint if possible. Because we are a non-profit, we can easily leverage grants and ordinations from private industry to support the program and we have had some interest in those spaces. So we look forward to pursuing those as soon as we kick this program off. And this will be established as a standalone project, much like we do with our public safety programs. And the reason I say that is because the money that comes into COG for this program will be spent exclusively on this program and not on anything else. So it will have its own accounting and program management oversight. Next slide, please. So what's called responsibility here. We're going to source the hires and learners and provide the training and mentoring for those learners. Provide continued mentorship and oversight. And I'll talk a little bit more about this in a later slide But the the point is that we have resources immediately available to these learners at all times The county will contract through an MOU with cog for the service and the Obviously we will be working with the county on oversight and in the mentorship as well as defining the programs needs with the county on oversight and in the mentorship as well as defining the program's needs. The projects, for example, that these learners will be working on are defined by Loudon County and specifically Loudon County IT. The learners obviously, they will be employees of COG, full-time employees, I want to make a point that these are full-time employees with benefits while they're in this program. So they will have insurance and actually be contributing to a retirement program, things of that nature. And then they will complete all of the training, which again I'll talk a little bit more about on a later slide exactly what their training is going to until at least right now, based on loud needs. And we will be providing them not only the oversight but also some mentorship that's not just IT but it's also sort of business side of relationship that's all talked about later. Next slide, please. This is really going to be a non-traditional recruitment there's a process that was put in. you you you This is the one that I wanted to highlight a little bit. The technical mentorship is obviously important. We're bringing people in, we're giving them a 12 week, basically crash course on these IT topics, the computer programming, and if we can get a grant that I'll talk a little bit more about later, a cybersecurity component. But there's a business mentorship program here. This is focused on making sure that these folks not only have the technical skills, but has the soft skills to do things like teamwork. How do you talk to your customer? How do you communicate with people that are not in IT about what is their goal of this particular project? The certifications that we know that they're going to walk away with right now. Our certified scrum master, cloud engineer service now, which I think is the primary focus because that's where the needs are in the county right now, comp TIA security and some cyber certifications. And don't ask me to explain all of those. We'll have John, if you have any questions about any of those, I'll let him handle those. So really what we're trying to do here, there's several things we're trying to accomplish. The first one is workforce modernization. Obviously it allows the department to have a pipeline for talent with core skills and mentoring support. But also you're building a group of people in the hope is that they're going to have some loyalty because of the opportunity that comes with this program. They're basically being elevated in their status, especially in the employment capabilities. We're reducing the vendor dependence and these are very difficult positions to feel and I get that that's not necessarily a loud and county problem that's actually an NCR problem. So by investing in some loud and residents and leveraging them to do loud projects, you're actually accomplishing two things and getting beneficial use with a significantly lower cost. The enhancing the applicant pool for county positions right now the county requires that you have a certain number of years of experience in order to qualify for certain positions. This gives them the professional experience to now apply for and potentially be successful in getting a position in the county. The counties that are obligated to hire those folks but the learners will, they're going to get those skills and experience that they need to apply for other open positions. Should the county not have one available for them at the time? Should the county not have one available for them at the time? Should the county not have one available for them at the time? So we're initially starting with six learners. We're initially starting with six. And as we say, we're going to be sourcing those from nonontraditional sources. I'm happy to answer any questions that you have about that. The technical skill qualifications that they're going to receive, I talked about those behavioral skill qualifications. So, you know, a full rounded employee, not just someone that's good at programming. And then supporting the county service now environment as I'm told, that is continuing to expand into other departments, departments are asking for support and IT doesn't necessarily have the capacity so they're bringing on contractors to do that. This is going to fill that gap and they will have on site immediately available resources to managing and not convert but customize the service now environment for those organizations. Right now, as you know, they're budgeted for $1 million a year. The return on investment that we expect, that technical workforce and retention value, hopefully building that loyalty with these learners and the folks that are participating in this program. The community impact, the high tide rises all ships. This is hopefully going to continue to improve, not only their employability, but their lifestyles and overall social and economic. I'm going to start with one maybe. So is the cog is actually doing the hiring in these folks to be essentially cog employees? And I would stop there and answer any questions that you might have. All right. Thank you very much for that presentation. So we'll open up for questions. I'll just start with one maybe. So is so COG is actually doing the hiring in these folks to be essentially COG employees during the period of the training not not loud and counted. That's right. So we would bring them on as limited tenure employees with the understanding that it's a 24 month limited tenure at the end of that 24 months when the program is completed they're either going to move to Loudon or they're going to move to a private sector position. But the tradition, actually the program, the way the program has worked in the past and we don't have a ton of experience but the last one that was very successful, saw those folks actually exit the program earlier than that. So they were getting positions in County, either County positions or they're getting positions in the private sector before that. So they were getting positions in county either county positions or they're getting positions in the proper sector. Are these loud and resident specifically? Yes. You will be loud and residents for this particular program. So they have to be loud and resident in order to be part of the program. But they don't have to go work for loud and kind of government. They can go take a private sector. No, no, no. It's not a part. But I assume our hope is that some of them would come work for a lot of government. Yes, so absolutely the talent that we're going to bring in and build is going to build that characteristic that they're really going to work for the county. And if they do, then there'll be an opportunity for them to apply for those positions. So really, I've heard the board over the last couple of years is it's really hard for us to find talent first off and then find talent that really wants to work for the county and serve the public. So we can buy talent, but we want to build talent with this program. So that's really the aim of what we're trying to do. And we know that we need a diverse workforce, particularly in the IT, as we program things. We have gaps in blind spots. So we need a diverse workforce that programs AI and all of these things that we're doing, so that we have a better picture of what we need to do to serve our citizens. Okay. So, Reservoir, I'm stepping on that. Thank you, Mr. Chair. On your list of those you're reaching out to. So you have Catholic Charities and we get frequent email updates from them as to what they're doing. You don't as far as I can tell have the Lutheran Social Services of the National Capital Area. services of the national capital area. I worked with them quite a bit when the refugees from Afghanistan came. So why would they not be included on this list? Just something that we're not necessarily aware of. So we can add them to this list and include them absolutely. I think that would be a very good idea. The other is Leesburg is a hub zone and we have quite a few small businesses in Leesburg that have hired folks from underserved and under-resourced communities. And I wonder if reaching out to our hub's own businesses would be a good idea. They have been recruiting the kind of folks you want to recruit. And they might have some good advice or some good networking opportunities for you. Sure, I'll work with John and make sure that we get this context and then we can reach out. advice or some good networking opportunities for you. Sure. How we're going to make sure that we get this context and then we can reach out. Obviously, we want to do is, we want to do whatever will make this program the most successful and help as many people as we possibly can. Great. Thank you. Great. Thank you. you you you to do a tech job. So not just the people who are already in adult education, but just kids who are in juniors and seniors and LCPS right now, and grabbing them when they're 11 to 12th grade is really just exact right time to grab them. But I appreciate this program so much. I was kind of excited when I read about it. I didn't know it was going to be you that came into my boardroom, so I appreciate that it's got. But just the OAR question and the behavioral services wrap around. On the OAR, some questions. Being candid, we hadn't considered that. But what I'm going to have to do is work with Loudon County HR and see if there are positions that would be disqualified for because of previous conditions. I can't come up with any of the top of my head especially if they I mean there's some violent crimes that we obviously don't necessarily want to Your you're gonna even have that question on our applications anymore for So yeah, I'm really that's probably gonna be what well it will be driven more by what loud and wants yeah Then what hog wants okay And so I'm not I'm not opposed one way or another but I'll also say that Whatever the case may be we're gonna make sure that they've got those social skills Yeah, to make sure that they're successful. I mean, I'll be honest. I have met some of the most Some very smart people who were sitting in the car separated settings. Now, obviously, yes, there's some violent crimes and other things. So just social path to crimes that you just cannot do anything with. But otherwise, I would consider those so. Thanks a lot to everything. On the public schools, we actually have already sort of laid the groundwork for some of that. So we're hoping that because a lot of public school systems, I'm sure it allows not any different, have technical programs where the young people that have that skill set and propensity to do that work. So tapping into something like that is definitely something that's on our radar and we've already started making contact. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Sains. Tapping into something like that is definitely something that's on our radar and we've already started to make contact Thank you so much. Thank you mr. Thank you mr. Saints. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the presentation Very good to see some of the partners that you're gonna be Utilizing and just to clarify so we're gonna Post the the job posting I guess on the county website call website and obviously with these these partners Then get the applications, screen them, interview them, say okay, congratulations, you're accepted into the program, so there'll be a 10 week mentor program. Once that's done, then they'll start the, that's your hands on. 10 to 12 weeks, and then they'll be working on projects within, after that period of time. And then for the duration, it will be the two year period. Correct. Okay. Make sure I got the right. And then you said, mentioned earlier how, and another program, some people left early because they got job offers, which is great. So would you fill those vacancies or leave them open? I would immediately refill this. Okay. Awesome. Good to hear that too. And then I sent in the question right before this meeting. But did we think about partnering with any nonprofits or organizations that kind of already do certification training say, for example, on IGL scrum or Google Analytics, where they already went through a program and then say, okay, let me talk to those three or four people that are going to your program and certified interview them. Are we thinking about that as well? Or are we going to think about going that route? As well? Yeah, I, well, what I would say about that is, is, well, what I would say about that is, we're really not looking at whether or not someone has a certification or a bachelor's degree or a certification. If they've got that, that's great. We're probably going to put them through some training again just to do some refresher. The strength of this program is not really, and I'm speaking from my perspective and everything that I've been working with John over the last year on. The strength of this program is not the certification that the individual gets, it's the experience. Because you can have a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, and ten certifications, and nobody will touch you because you have no real world experience. You can have a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, and ten certifications, and nobody will touch you because you have no real-world experience. So, bringing them and getting the certification as a plus, but we're really focused on giving them the experience of qualified positions. Very good. No, thank you for coming. Bringing this back after I know we had a conversation before and gave some ideas and some suggestions and Bringing back I think what we received back is I think it was on point. So thank you Okay Questions or comments? Seeing none. Thank you very much. Thank you for being here tonight. We look forward to getting underway on this Okay Okay, next up is item 4 which is our quarterly report on capital improvement projects for the first quarter. Good evening, Chair Luterno, members of the committee, members of the board. We are here to present the Court of the Report for the Capital Improvement Project for the first quarter of fiscal year 2025, which ran July through September. New this quarter, the report features a new format which you may have noticed for the project pages which we hope more clearly delivers information for the projects Also knew this quarter DCC I thought it would be beneficial to show some progress on our projects So we've put together a brief slideshow which we will use to highlight a few select projects and provide some visuals of the progress on those projects. And this also works out well this quarter as DGS has a few projects to highlight this quarter. So before we get to DTCI's projects, I will turn it over to Ernie to go through a few DGS's projects. Great, thank you Scott. Good evening, Chair and members of the board. Thank you for the opportunity to allow us to drop in this evening. I will be sending this information out. I will be sending this information out after this presentation and email to the whole board so that you have it in writing should you desire to provide updates to an event constituents. But the three particular projects that we wanted to highlight for you this evening and provide an update were the Loveds fill, what we call the Northwest Recycling Drop-Off Center, the Sterling Recycling Drop-Off Center, and the Electric Vehicle Charging Station's implementation. Some of these are particularly recent changes, but we wanted to provide some updates on that. And I actually scripted this so I could stay on on track and see you know so with your permission I'd like to do a quick rundown on these with your permission I'd like to do okay mr. Brown. Thank you sir Next like please. Thank you for hijacking the presentation Sorry So as you may recall on October 17th 2023 the Board approved the funding and the relocation project of the Love It's Fillworks Cycling Center from the lease site within the town of Love It's Fill limits to the Love It's Fill community park outside the town limits. Of a particular note, it was on to County property, County owned property. Relocating the existing drop off center is to County owned property mitigates the risk of being forced off the site to do a lease termination. The county has completed conceptual design and confirmed that the park is a viable location. While the approved project relocates the recycling center from inside the town to a county owned property outside of the town, the town had expressed some concerns over the site's proximity and visual impacts. So consequently during the last year, after the town had expressed its disconcern, staff has been working with them to identify other suitable locations. Unfortunately to date, new suitable alternative location has been found and the only viable location is still Love It's Fill community park. The town of Love It's Fill provides recycling services for its residents, and the County Recycling Center offers recycling benefits for all-loud and residents living within the northwestern area of Love and County. So recognizing that the town does not have legislative or regulatory oversight of the proposed location, staff desires to continue to work collaboratively with the town to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. To this end, staff has requested another meeting with the town to discuss additional screening from Milltown Road to mitigate the concerns over the visual impacts to the Southwest entrance of the town itself. While this may result in an increase of cost, we believe that this approach will result in a better outcome. And we hope to have something more to report to the board in the next six months with Some hopeful progress with the town on that Solution on that so that's the update where we are with the the northwest of the Levit's full recycling center Next one we'd like to highlight is the sterling service center or the what we call the eastern Loudon recycling drop- Drop-Off Center. As you all know from the email that I sent out on this topic, the recycling center, the recycling center needed to be removed or relocated due to the upcoming construction of the Parkview High School site. As noted on this slide, the optimal location was found at Clawed More Park itself on the other side of the park view high school. So you'll see the existing site on the lower sites as old sites. And then just literally across the other side, the new site which is technically on Clawdmore Park area is the new site that was identified and it's been deemed viable. Because we have worked with Parks and Rec and others to ensure that it would work. And our consultant, SolidWay Services, is working on the site plan and the construction drawings. The site plan was submitted for review to building a development on October 1st. And another one of our consultant, WSP, is completing the landscape plan and coordinating the United States Fish and Wildlife Service endangered species process for the northern long-eared bat. The northern long-eared bat can currents process with Fish and Wildlife is expected to be completed by October 30th, which would allow us to begin clearing the site on November 15th. Construction will be performed through our job order contract process. Once the permits are received, this allows us to avoid any further procurement process for this effort. Construction is anticipated to take approximately four to five weeks once permits are in place, which if it is, if all permits are in place in November, we anticipate a completion timeframe in January of 2025. I will also note that there is an overhead power line that needs to be adjusted. They require 24 foot clearance at 22 and we're working with the power company on that, but that will not hold up the construction. It may have some delays if we are not able to get it done in time for the actual opening, but we will be able to continue to proceed for that construction work. Just one more next slide, please. And the third project that I wanted to bring to your attention is the EV electric vehicle charging stations. Back in September of 2022, the board approved the electric vehicle charging station at county facilities phased plan. The plan was added to the 2023 CIP to provide funding as part of the charging station project. A study was also performed to assess the viability of incorporating zero mission vehicles into the county fleet and ascertain the demand for charging stations for the county's use. The Lord directed staff to prioritize the charging stations at more public facing facilities including community centers, libraries, park and rides and parks. This privatization ensures that the first phase of this project is dedicated to the public and the county fleet charging will be addressed in later phases. In 2023, the CIP provided $1 million in local tax funding. And in fiscal year 2024, it allocated approximately $2 million for federal grants, which was replaced with local tax funding because the grants did not materialize. In 2025, the CIP 2025 process, approximately $5 million in federal grants was allocated in 2027, and then another 3 million of local tax funding was allocated in 2029. As noted, no grants such as the bipartisan infrastructure grant were successfully awarded. For the installation of EV Chargers, we do have one grant that is currently being pursued, but the award determination will not be known until February 2025 at the very earliest, and then it is not known when that funding would be available. Phase one of the charging station projects consists of 32 locations, totaling approximately 85 charging stations to date, staff as per purchase and receive 20 dual head electric vehicle chargers. That's total net of 40 charging heads. The first 10 sites, eight of which have been completed and two locations away permits and construction start dates. The two sites that are awaiting construction start dates, we anticipate to be completed in the next quarter. Ernie, can you just move your mic a little closer? I'm sorry to hear. Apologies. I'm not usually used to reading from a script. I'm not usually using from a script. The cost of the first ten sites is $1 million, depending on the required infrastructure upgrades the additional 22 sites in the phase one are estimated to be $2 million. The estimated timeline to complete phase one is December 2025 and that would include all the 32 sites. Staff is currently assessing the funding and timing needs for the projects remaining in all the other phases as most locations and phase two and three are primarily focused on county fleet vehicles and their charging needs. So as I mentioned the information that provided on these three particular projects, we will make sure that email goes out to the entire board tomorrow so that you have that information in writing. And this is the update that we have for these three sites and I'll make myself available for any questions that you may have. I'll make myself available for any questions that you may have. Okay, so we'll pause on this section here first. I'm sorry. Well, thank you. Thank you, Ernie, for the update, especially on the Stirling Park recycling center project. Could you email me that timeline that you ran down? Yes, I know, so we can get that information out to our constituents. We're getting obviously out here. I'm pretty sure you're aware we're getting a lot of questions and asking for updates. So we can get the information out. Then of course, they can please keep us updated as time progresses. As I know, this is a very ambitious timeline that you laid out, which hopefully everything works the plan. But you know, sometimes that does not happen. So I'm telling you, like, you can just just follow office and email that information that we greatly appreciate it Then when you didn't cover it I guess the Eastern Loudoun Group will be in the next section right away All right. Thank you. Thanks sir. All right. Thank you Mr. President Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the update right, thank you. Thanks, sir. Mr. Brasabrisko. Thank you. Thank you for the update on those projects. I'm glad to see the recycling center is going to be kind of close to where it was before. It wasn't quite clear on there though. Are you going to be able to access it from Parkview High School or from Parkview High School or that street in sterling, like they're not going to have to drive all the way through a clawmore to get to it, right? No man, there's an access road that has full frontage on Parfew. I can't see the road, but they literally use the same access road. They always use to just be able to further down. Okay, great. And it's going to be the same number of purple cans. Yes ma'am. Okay. And then, can you go back to the charging stations please. What you're showing here is just phase one, so that's 10 out of, did you say 30? There are 32 sites in phase one, yes, ma'am. So the first 10, yes, ma'am. So the first, I accept you to the math, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, that's 10. Yes, thank you. Those are the locations that we currently are in process. Eight of those are complete. The government center is one that is not complete. We have one that's going in of the government center visitors location. And I believe cascades actually there's a delay. It was supposed to be done October 1st. It's actually going to be done tomorrow, which is one of the cases. You're talking about the cascades library in senior center. Okay, because I didn't see it on there. So I was I. Because I didn't see it on there. That's north of seven. The Cascades. The. Community center. Sorry, Cascades. Community. Yeah. Library and Senior Center is north of Route seven. We'll go back and this is identified. This may be lagging because it hadn't gone online until, but I'll double check on that. Okay, because I thought it had gone online. The library's made some big announcements, so I thought it was online. Okay, and do you have you cited where the other 2017 will be? We can provide the board the proposed list. The difficulty with that is the infrastructure is kind of a driver. Okay. And that so we have identified this 32 but if the infrastructure becomes quite complex for example we have one of the projects. It's about $60,000 per project on average. We have one project because of the infrastructure challenges as close to $200,000 just to put the infrastructure in. So we have done a little bit of moving on that but they are all within the Board of Proof Phase 1 projects. Okay. Okay. So, yes, we'll send that list out again as well. Okay. Thank you, bye. Bye. Like I'm on the phone. Okay. Anything else? No sir. Okay. Anything else from the committee? Why don't we move on to the rest of the presentation? Great, thank you. I will highlight a couple of facility projects from Quick, this eastern loud and group home, which achieved substantial completion in September of 2024 where we're wrapping up some punchless items and moving furniture at this time. Next slide. Aldi Fire and Rescue Station is progressing well with the building exterior going on with the stone veneer and being weather tight Allowing for some of the inside finishes to to occur and site work is ongoing To occur and site work is ongoing Next slide And this is the Ashburn Recreation Community Center project Which is also progressing well the exterior shot on the left of the building, and a progress picture of the competition pool as viewed from the seating area is on the right. Next slide. On the transportation side of things next. This is the Arcola Boulevard developer project, which we wanted to highlight that is now completed and open to traffic. The next is the Belmont Ridge road widening from Toronto Parish to Croson. Segment Achieve, substantial completion in August of 2024. And we are wrapping up some final punch list items. And ribbon cutting is scheduled for October 28th. And lastly, the North Star Boulevard phase one project from Route 15 going north up to Evergreen. Mills Road is progressing well with the bridge work as shown in the background of the left picture, progressing well and nearing completion on that. So those are the highlights we have for this quarter. So we've got that we have for this quarter. So if that has any available for any questions, any else for us? So those are our steps. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Scott, are there any questions about answering the question on the non-highland project? I think you've had a potential problem with shifting easement because of floodplain, I believe. But you're going to try to start construction next schedule. Is that an approach that you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, We can do things concurrently. So on Route 15 in particular, we are essentially done with the design work and we're working through land acquisition and utility relocation. But a large percentage of the work is within existing right away, especially between Battlefield and North King Street. And a lot of the tree clearing that we're going to need to do for construction is within existing right away. So we currently have the land rights to that area right now. So what we're doing right now is developing a plan to begin that tree clearing, you know, as a precursor for construction. So when it comes to the time that a contractor is brought on and we start the all the road construction, that will be already completed. And it also helps us in that we can time that work where we don't have to be concerned with the northern long year bat restrictions. that's you know another reason for doing that and Frankly, we actually do a lot of tree clearing ahead of construction now because of those restrictions for example on the root 7 690 interchange project we have not Bid that project out for construction, but we have used a job order contractor to begin to do some of the tree clearing that we needed for utility relocation. And that is just another step we can do concurrently with utility relocation in right away so that we can compress the schedule as best as we can. So I mean, that is a strategy that we are using more and more and we're looking more holistically at you know not how can we get the phase of them but how can we get to the end point of the project you know as quickly as possible and if we can do use concurrent do things concurrently we will. That's really helpful thank you I really appreciate the kind of coordination in planning that takes. And I know the people who live along Route 15 and awaiting for this project to be completed are going to appreciate it too. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Brescon. Thank you. Is it my imagination or are we seeing some improvements in projects being more on time because the supply chains have opened up and inflation is eased? Because I feel like I haven't. There's a lot less I think in the report that says things have been delayed. Yeah, we've noticed a lot more easing of the market. Certainly hasn't gone back down to where we're pricing. But we're getting materials more or less on time. There's always going to be a few issues that we run across. And it may not be. It may be projects specific or product specific. And so we work through those, maybe getting an alternate product or something like that. But in general, we're seeing less of those issues. Yeah, that's good. And then the Eastern Loudon Group Home, it says substantial completion achieved. Do you know the occupancy date? And also I'm not remembering how many will be in there if you recall. That'd be great. It's a four bedroom home, but I don't know the official occupancy, but we can work with the MHC to figure that out. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. MHS CDS has to go through a licensing process with the state. Okay. So they'll need to move everything in. We're getting furniture in right now. Okay. We're working with them and they'll go from there. I'll be very interested when it opens. Thank you. It does say four to five clients in this. I don't know. Okay, just one quick question. The Bramilton West Park, Delay. I feel like this one's been hanging around a while at this point. And it felt like it already was delayed to me. Maybe I'm wrong on that. You can correct me. But now it looks like we're seeing another delay for completion into winter of 2027. And what's being identified here is permitting of offsite sewer line connection location and overall project completion. So I don't, is there more of this story or context or? As far as the sewer connection, yes, we had some issues with loud and water where they asked us to look at an alternate route for the connection that would connect more into the, their regional park that they were building with loud and water, or with Northern Virginia Regional Park Authority. That wasn't working for us. We could not get those easements through NVRP. So we're back trying to work our connection underneath the Marrager Road. So they delayed us by asking us to go on this wild goose chase for us. Okay, that's great. Are they going to compensate us for the cost associated with that? No, they're not. So, you know, I'm sorry, I don't mean it. I feel like we always get this from various utilities and they just sort of throw their weight around. But, you know, there's a real impact to these costs and the lays and so now we lose like a whole season of use out of this because they wanted us to do something different than what we were planning on doing and You know when I I know that park already has water and sewer that runs into it to a restroom facility So I thought that would be relatively straightforward, but I guess not Okay, thank you Any other questions or comments But I guess not. Okay, thank you. Any other questions or comments? All right, thank you very much. Okay, so I know everybody is excited tonight to talk about taxes and particularly personal property taxes. It is very, I guess, fitting that we're having this discussion a day after the personal property tax was due. And so I'm sure all of us heard some from our constituents on this. We have two items on this, item five and item 14. I think effectively Mr. Words kind of traditionally presents item this item five to us. But let's just kind of go ahead and roll right, you know, roll both of them at the same time and so let's just get staff up. Maybe we kind of have the presentations and then we sort of just roll up our sleeves and get into this a little bit. So we have both our constitutional officers, Mr. Wurz and Mr. Eichelberg with us this evening and then You can introduce others as needed. Thank you Steve Steve All's House office of management budget and Megan's here from the budget office. I don't have a voice Okay, well, let's Megan. We'll answer for her tonight. Hopefully do a good job Mr. Chairman and board members this is an annual item that comes to you to begin discussions about next calendar years tax rates. New this year is table six. It includes the various classes of property for which you are authorized by the code to establish a separate rate. And it also tells you what those rate limitations are. There was a legislative change that was effective this year that breaks out vehicles. So now you governing bodies are authorized to set a separate tax rate on vehicles this year. The rate on the general class, as you know, is $4.15 per 100 for calendar year 24. If you make any changes to your rates, it's going to affect the current fiscal year and next fiscal year. And attachment to any item includes the rates and revenue by class if you're interested in that information as well. And then I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have. I know that budget office has a presentation relative to item 15 as well. Yeah, so let's kind of keep most of this discussion for, let's go through the next item as well. I do just want to ask specifically on what you're presenting. You kind of reviewed two different ways that localities are setting values for vehicles, forgetting the terminology. But there's a variation you gave an example of the most common vehicle in Loud and County, which is a 2023 Tesla Model Y, probably white, but we'll see. But there is a significant difference, clean loan versus clean trade-in. Do you wanna just explain that a little bit? JD Power, which purchased NADA, a number of years back, provides localities with multiple values. When you used to call it the blue book, it wasn't actually gold. But when you look in that book, it's a document, a service that provides car lenders with information, it provides localities with value information, it provides insurance companies with value information. And in that guide are various values. And I want to say currently there are five of those, and we use the next to the lowest value in that book. Localities are permitted to use any of those values by code, as long as it's uniform across the vehicles in their locality. We use to use wholesale value, but then they converted to other values. And I think it's just not me, though, like clean loan versus. If I give you a, it's arranged like retail would be the MSRP would be the highest and then retail and then wholesale would be one of the lowest values in there. I don't know them off the top of my head. I can get you that information. So everybody around here either uses clean trade in or clean loan. But the reason I'm asking is, you know, in this particular vehicle is a $4,000 difference between those, which is pretty significant. Yes. So you would think clean trade in, you know, as consumers, trade in is usually a lower value but that's the higher number than what we use which is clean loan. So I don't really understand what clean loan actually is. I'm happy to provide you with that. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Any other questions just for the Mr. Words kind of basics here? So just so I'm clear, is this, this is just an information item? That's correct, but I believe that some of the board members may be interested in taking some kind of action as my understanding. And item 14 is under action items. I will note at the onset of that discussion that we don't have to, we may not want to act tonight, we have a little bit of time. But this is just his sort of annual report to us on the basics of what we currently do. And then item 14 is the policy discussion around what we may want to do. OK, so this isn't the time when we have to confirm the second half of the fiscal year. We're not going to be able to talk about that. We wouldn't. We would do that in item 14 if we were to do that, but I think- I see. Okay, okay, okay. There's been some discussion about some changes. Yes, okay. I'm tracking. Thank you. Yeah. Supervisor Froney. Yeah, thank you, Chair Lichorno. So, Mr. Warts, I thought that the table that you gave about the assessment schedule was really interesting. I guess it was an attachment for, particularly for computer equipment in data centers. How do we change the assessment ratio? So it seemed like that was from 2019. That assessment ratio, you had a study done by an appraiser. And I noticed that our assessment ratio was lower than some other jurisdictions like some have it at 65 percent, some even go more than that. So I'm just kind of wondering if we wanted to look at that, would that be an opportunity for us to change or do you have to do a study within a firm again. That is a decision that I make and then the board can concur with that assessment ratio change. If we make some changes, we should go through a public process where citizens are afforded the opportunity to provide input. We did hire a consulting firm to look at our schedule. There was a concern that maybe we should adopt assessment schedules that were more aggressive on depreciating computer equipment. Some localities go down to 2% in the fifth year. We go down to 10. And so that was the purpose of requesting a study, which didn't indicate that we needed to make any changes to that schedule. Oftentimes when we hear from our data centers, they would communicate to us that they refresh their equipment on a three year schedule, but what we've seen through reporting of business personal property is that's not occurring. It is not depreciating as quickly as may have been stated in the past. Some of that equipment is being held for longer than five years. So you don't see any to update? I'm more than happy to undertake another study and have a consulting firm, an independent firm. Look at what is occurring with the value of equipment and data centers and bring that information to you all if you're interested in looking at a change to that schedule. Okay, because that would impact the revenue that's brought into the county. It would. It would. Okay. Thank you. Could be positive or negative depending on the outcome though That's correct. Yeah, yes, we maybe want to discuss that a little bit before we Okay Why don't we flow into item 14 mr. Hemstries at the podium which I will say is a bit unusual So we're excited about that mr. Eikeberg's here mr. Warts here is here. Who is who is going to lead off? Mr. Hemstries kind is going to lead off? I'm going to lead off. Mr. Hemsford is going to lead it off. Okay. So just a place, I think, Vice Chair Brisbane's, thank you Mr. Chair. Just a place, Vice Chair Brisbane's question, into context. We typically, unless it's planned as part of the budget, don't make changes to the personal property tax rate, which January, unless we planned it as part of the fiscal year budget. For fiscal year 2025, we had previously not planned to make a change as part of the budget that was adopted by the board. And so, however, because you could make a change, the Commissioner of Revenue typically brings this item as an information item, just as kind of a heads up or information to the board if you want to make a change. You need to start thinking about that now because you would have to make it or adopt whatever changes in a tax rate in January. Correct? I'll make sure I got that correct. That's accurate. So now separate from that from that, we received direction as part of the FY25 budget process to come back in the fall to talk to the Finance Committee and then the Board about personal property tax rate relief or personal property tax relief based off of a couple of things, one being a change in legislation that allows the board on a regular basis or permanent basis to have a separate classification for vehicles and to adopt a lower personal property tax rate than the general rate. So if you recall, the board has had that authority on a temporary basis for the last three tax years including this one. But it was set to sunset at the end of this tax year. And so as staff we had recommended that you not adopt a low rate for vehicles because if the legislation stayed the same and it's sunset you would have to go back to the general rate upon the sunset. However there was legislation introduced in the last general assembly session to get rid of sunset, that legislation passed during the budget process. The board directed us to come back in the fall when that occurred. So we are here as part of Commissioner Warts's item. We are also here seeking guidance around whether or not the Board Finance Committee, and then the board wants to grant any level of personal property tax relief. We have three different ways that that could happen, which we'll go through in the presentation. I am looking for guidance as to whether or not you want to do personal property tax relief. If so, how much do you think you might want to do? What scenarios do you want to see, Ron? The reason for that is I am coming back to the Finance Committee in November, your November meeting with Budget Guidance for FY26, which will then go to the full board at your first December meeting. This item tonight is scheduled to proceed to your October 16 meeting so that I can get similar guidance from the full board after the finance committee makes a recommendation. So this gives you, gives the board a couple months to kind of think about if you want to modify your personal property tax rates in January of 2025 and if so, how much. I also, there's also an option on the vehicle license fee, so I need to correct something that I said to you during our briefings, because I was wrong, and I've been corrected this evening, so I'll fix that during the briefing. So, you go to the next slide. So, what this presentation is about is personal property tax relief, the first one deals with modifications to the personal property tax rate, either the general rate or the classification for vehicles, that any adjustment to the general rate or any adjustment to the classification on vehicles would impact all equipment or vehicles or everything that's within that property class. Commercial, personal animal vehicles, whatever else is in that classification are affected if you make a change to those rates. The second option, which is something that the county attorney and I do not personally believe you have the authority to do, is to supplement the Commonwealth's program on personal property tax relief. So this is a concept or idea that was first brought during the budget process by Supervisor Tachroni. If you recall, I think Commissioner Wertz was talking about personal property tax relief. And we're also talking about the budget process. I believe Supervisor Tachroni mentioned the supplement of personal property of that program. As we said then, we don't think we could do that. We still don't think we could do that without a legislative change. However, the meantime, the treasurer has also taken a close look at this and has identified a way to operationalize that which the treasurer will present this evening to you. And then the third option is a reduction or elimination of the vehicle license fee, which is a $25 or once a year fee that is paid to the county. Now I had said during our briefings that that's collected in October that is incorrect. It is not collected October is collected in March in the payment that you make in May. It's built in March, pay to May. So I think I got that right now. That also means that we would need to make a correction, I think to the motion that's in the packet, unless you wanna impact fiscal year 25. So I think what we had placed in the item is that you could eliminate this fee effective January 25 and not impact fiscal 25, that's not correct. Right, so if you want, so when we get into the item, we'll make it clear which fiscal years are impacted by which reductions. So we're talking about personal property tax, just a little bit of a reminder of what we've been with personal property tax and the rate. Revenues from personal property tax have been the source of growth in the county budget of last decade. A lot of the growth in the county's budget has been funded through growth in the personal property tax portfolio. A couple years ago, a few years ago, the staff and I started to become very concerned about the amount of personal property tax revenue that's within the property tax portfolio. For example, I think we said in 2013, when you look at just the property tax portfolio, about 72% of that came from real property. A few years ago that had dropped as low as 51.5%. We went out and did a study. We hired a consultant to help us with this. We came back, made a recommendation to the board, which you have adopted as part of your fiscal policies that 60% of general fund property tax revenues should come from real property. And to get there, right now you're about 53%, 53 and a half percent. To get there over time, you're about 53%, 53 and a half percent. To get there over time, you should lower the personal property tax rate while that portfolio continues to grow. And then slowly increase the real property tax rate to get the percentage of your property tax portfolio coming from real property to be 60%. So those were adopted. We make recommendations to you around the budget in tax policy based off of that guidance. And then last year you also created a revenue stabilization fund around personal property to help address some of the fluctuations in that revenue stream. Bless you. This also explains kind of the difference between tax year and fiscal year. One of the things that I do want to make sure the finance committee and ultimately the board is fully aware of, when we make recommendations to change the personal property tax rate, we are typically making a recommendation to you that you do that in the second half of the fiscal year. Okay? Because what you can see here is the fiscal year is in blue, tax year is in green. Alright? So if, for example, for fiscal 26, if you are going to grant personal property tax rate relief and change the personal property tax rate, our change the personal property tax rate, our recommendation would be that you consider that as part of your FY26 budget. And typically we would say make that change effective January of 2026. That way you can consider whatever revenue you're foregoing and all of that as part of your budget process so you understand how that tax rate relief or revenue relief fits into your overall budget picture. Part of the discussion that we had coming out of the budget process and the reason why we're here tonight is potentially the grant personal property tax rate relief in the in Tax Year 25. So if we did that, that would be all the way to the left of the chart here, which would be for a tax year 25, which would be in the green, which would have impacts on the rest of fiscal 25, because that were lower revenue that you collect in fiscal 25, and then also impact fiscal 26. Okay, so you normally don't do that. If you want to do that, that's perfectly fine with us. We've got some recommendations as to how you might do that. Just understand that there's unplanned impacts to fiscal 25 because you did not plan for that. And then you would be locking yourself into whatever that foregone revenue is for fiscal 26 without seeing the FY26 budget. I just want to make sure that's clear. The other thing that we want to make sure that's clear. The other thing that we want to make sure we want to understand about fund balance is that if you recall over the past couple years we were concerned about real property revenue coming from data centers because of the way that data center real property was being valued and the way a general assembly action Red it should be valued there is a difference So consequently we were holding some of that real property money Kind of in check just to ensure that If there were appeals on real property value we would have enough money to pay back those appeals. Consequently, for your last couple years, your year in fund balance has been abnormally high. So 23, you will see another for fiscal 24 fund balance again will be abnormally high. However, we believe that that situation is stabilized and so starting with fiscal 25, we have fully budgeted real property revenue from data centers. So what that means is your fund balance for fiscal 25 should come back down to a more normal level, which will be somewhere on the $130 million range. So you need to consider how if you grant personal property tax relief in tax year 25, how that impacts your year in fund balance for fiscal 25. Reason why that's important is because fund balance at the end of the year goes to a number of things. Those are here on the chart. It goes to contribution to the fiscal reserve and revenue stabilization fund. We do send a large amount of cash forward into the next year's CIP capital program to offset expenses in the CIP. And then we also use year and fund balance to replenish CIP contingencies and also to fund a good portion of our land acquisition budget. So as we have been dialoguing with the board, particularly centric strategic initiatives retreat, there's a lot of money that you're asking for us to set aside in land acquisition. We also, as you know, we've had some price pressure on a lot of our projects. So our both RCIP contingency as well as the schools are in need of replenishment. To the extent fund balances diverted from these purposes, that needs to be made up in the real property tax rate for the following year. So our recommendation typically is not to divert a lot of fund balance away from these purposes. Okay. So we had proposed as part of the FY25 proposed budget to reduce the general tax rate from 415 to 410. For tax year 25, the board did not approve that. And so you kept the general rate at 415 and then you directed us to come back and have this discussion with you in the fall. If the authority to establish the rate on vehicles was lower than the general rate. And so that is why we're here to tell you you can now do that. And that is definitely an option to you. These are the options that you should you could consider lower in the generate. You know that we definitely recommend that we would recommend that at this point you do that effective January 26 as part of your FY 26 budget process. You could lower the rate on vehicles and lower the general rate and then that would mean the rate on vehicles is lower than the general rate. You could also keep the general rate the same and then lower the rate on vehicles. That would affect only vehicles and then lower the rate on vehicles. That would affect only vehicles and that's everything in that classification. However, as we as we stated previously, we don't believe that necessarily lines up with your tax policy, but it is an option that you could definitely do. And if you were to enact that as of January 1, 2025, you would need to consider how much that would impact your year-end fund balance for fiscal 25 because that would be an unplanned reduction. So I'm going to stop there. I'm going to turn it over to the treasurer to go through personal property tax relief. So this would be a supplement to the states program. Again, this is what Steve Rajadakone was talking about during the budget process, but then the treasurer has determined how to do it. Mr. Chairman, thank you and colleagues, I appreciate your time and willingness to listen to this. My presentation, Matt, did you want to invite any questions on what Mr. Hems Street covered before we go on to this or just do it at one point? Why don't we go ahead and go through all of it and then we'll give everybody time to sort through it all. All right. Next slide. So right now, I think since 2002 I would like if I told you that I knew the exact yeah Well, you've been getting your 48 million from the Commonwealth which is a fixed dollar amount and that's been allocated to the taxable value of every personal vehicle. So it's not all vehicles. It is only personal use vehicles, business vehicles, pay what has been the general rate on everything without any offset. That allocation is done by the commissioner of the revenue as part of his process of setting the levy. Those levy's are then passed over to my office individually and I print them out and mail them to people and we collect off of that. That 48 million is hardwired into a statute. The towns also receive an allocation of personal property tax relief, and they in a likewise manner allocate that back to their citizenry on the first $20,000. So that's something that's in place that will continue to be in place. And if you lower the overall rate on vehicles, that will still continue to be applied. Next slide. An alternative to lowering the rate is to look at potentially using a different mechanism to provide a supplemental credit in the same way that the Commonwealth gives us money. The board would decide, hey, we're going to keep the rate at some level and for the first $20,000 in addition to a reduction in the taxes on that we will provide a pool of money and have the commissioner of the revenue compute a further credit against that. So that's basically the mechanism of it. And that's what Tim was talking about. It's, we'll just leave it at that. We don't believe at this point that we've got the authority to do that as a locality. What that does is it gives you a lot more control instead of if you have to back up Things you don't have to go back to the citizenry and say hey that you know that rate that we just lowered Well, we're bringing it back up because we need the money what you do is you have a rate that you think that's reasonable on Vehicles because you can set it apart from general property. And this credit would only apply to personal vehicles. So the rate for vehicles would apply for business vehicles, but they would not get this credit. And about 20%, maybe 10% of the total vehicle fleet, I'll call it that we have is business use the rest that 90% is personal use vehicles and so if you lower the rate You then you're gonna lower the rate both below 20,000 and above 20,000 If you take this process and you use this process, you would have the same rate. It could be a higher rate, so you're gonna collect more on above 20 and you can provide more financial benefit to people that have less valuable cars. Now, everyone gets the rate or everyone gets the advantage of it. So if I have a $100,000 car, I get the benefit on the first 20. But if I have a $15,000 car, I get the benefit on my entire vehicle. And if you argue which I would, that the value of your vehicle tends to be a fairly rough proxy of your income, you tend to, I would think you would benefit people in lower income. And we all know in Loudoun County you need to have a car to get around. So go to the next page, I think I probably covered a lot of this. It would only apply to personal vehicles. You would not have to lower the rate to provide the benefit, but we would need a legislative change for it. It is not to say that you could not lower the rate. You could lower the rate. This could be used in combination of that. I would encourage, it's obviously your call, but I would encourage the board to consider this a data center tax credit and ask that the staff, and I'd be happy to be part of their process, come up with an algorithm that's sustainable, that's tied to what we know will be some very healthy growth in the data center revenue over the next few years. And then use that to allocate that back against the cost of owning a car in Loudon County. And my office would, the commissioner of the revenue would factor that into the levy and it would be shown as a discrete amount on a person's bill and if somebody's bill was zeroed out we would still send them a Bill that would show them that they would have otherwise owed $x dollars but that because of the credit from the Commonwealth and the credit from this from this locality through this data center tax credit that they did not owe any taxes on it. So it is both a financial relief, but it's also important, I think, to have it as communications tool for the board. Go to the next slide. And we talked about the legal authority. We're going to pursue that vigorously. We would ask that the board consider adding it to its legislative agenda for the upcoming session. I remember the Treasurer's Association of Virginia. We certainly add that to ours for that association and then pursue an administrative if there is a way for the administration to say, look, you currently have the authority and everyone can get us comfortable. You know, we just want to do what's right. We want to, well, we all stood for election. I can't tell you how many times people ask me when I'm going to get rid of this. Well, that's not my prerogative as the treasurer, but people hate the $25 fee. They're like, if you're going to charge you $25, then give me the sticker. We collect about $7.8 million. It costs about 50 cents to make. We collect about $7.8 million in revenue off of this. It's an irritant. If I have a car that's worth pick a number, $700, because of the current requirements of the law, all of my car tax is abated by virtue of the personal property tax relief amount. Because $1,000 and lasts you don't charge them. So they're getting a bill just for this $25. And some people don't pay it. And so now we're spending staff time chasing them around just to get them to pay it. If there was a way the board could see it's way clear to getting rid of it, I think it would be a great benefit to literally every car owner in our county. So I would just advocate setting it to zero as opposed to asking legal counsel to withdraw the line item on the ordinance. I think that's the most appropriate way to go through it. Do we go through the financial impacts? Are you guys okay? So just to run through real quick with that looks like Obviously lowering the personal property property tax rate effective in January of 2025 Would impact fiscal 25 so that's something that you would need to consider I think in talking with the treasurer We think Well actually with finance, we think that for FY 25 you should have about $130 million in fund balance. We think that you could safely, the maximum amount that you could for go in personal property tax revenue is about 60 million for FY 26. Should you decide, that's the maximum. So these are maximums. If you decided to start with personal property tax revenue, in tax year 25, which is January 25, the maximum amount, we would recommend you look at is maybe 25 million, which would have an impact on your FY 25 fund balance. So for example, instead of collecting or having about 130 million in fund balance, that could be 105 million for example, because that would be foregone revenue. So some of the questions we would ask you, well I think we've got some other charts that kind of illustrate what this looks like. These are notional scenarios for FY26, depending on when you or if you do it, when you do it, there could be an impact on FY25, so that amount is also listed there. So when you look at this chart, those tax rates are based off of that second to bottom row, which is total foregone revenue. So these are maximum amounts. So the maximum amount we think you can look at is about 60 million for FY26 that does have an impact on your FY26 budget because it's foregone revenue. And so just keep in mind those tax rates up there are based off of the amount. So if you do a lower amount those tax rates would obviously be higher. Okay. Notionally we have broken this out between lowering the general rate and then potentially reducing the vehicle license fee. So but you could ask us. One of the things I'm going to ask you is, do you want to do personal property tax relief? If so, what scenarios do you want to see when we come back to you in budget guidance? Would you want to, for example, are you interested in reducing the vehicle license fee? So you could keep it, and then the treasure would continue to have people upset with him for collecting it. You could decide to take it to zero. You could cut it in half, whatever, but we would want some guidance on what you would want to see there. Also, for the vehicle license fee, we would need to know if you want to eliminate that as of January 25 or January 26. Keep in mind what I told you in your briefings before it was wrong, was thinking that that was collected in October. So if you eliminated it in January 25, that would have an impact in fiscal 25. I think the staff recommendation would be if you're going to eliminate that, eliminate it effective January of 26, which would make any fiscal 26 issue. but that's completely up to the board. You do have fun balance to absorb that if you want to make that reduction. General rate, general rate, obviously we would recommend you lower the general rate. So the two scenarios that are up here is a reduction to the to the general rate and the Redo elimination of the vehicle license fee or a reduction in gel rate and a reduction to the vehicle rate and elimination of vehicle license fee. But we can run any combination of scenarios that you would like us to run as part of budget guidance. But those are just some notion scenarios based off of the maximum amount we would recommend you consider. What you will see here is how that impacts you on the expansion side. So we did a briefing today with Supervisor Tocrony and Supervisor Turner. They identified that our chart was incorrect. So we have corrected the chart since this afternoon's briefing. Thank you, Supervisor Croni and Supervisor Turner. So there's a little bit different from what was in the packet. This is just based notionally, the board over the last few years has been growing the budget by about 9%. That's between us and the schools. So that's a total budget. If you had, if you use that 9% that would generate about $215 million in additional money. If you forwent $60 million, that would bring your new local tax revenue to $155, which then impacts the amounts that you have available for your budget. So just want to, again, to just give you that kind of in a no-sional fashion, what that might look like. I think this is the last. Then we just have the recommendations which are in your packet, which is really just to give us some guidance on what you think you might wanna do. And then what we will do after this is put it into a budget guidance item. We can run several different scenarios for finance to consider, and then ultimately the board. So you have until next month to make any decisions, although I would appreciate some guidance as to what you want to do tonight. This will go to the full board on Tuesday. So. Yeah, we left blanks in this. So yeah, it's in the motion because we weren't sure what you wanted to do. Again, you have until January to make a decision on personal property tax rates for 25. So we did want to give you plenty of time to consider the information, ask questions, and get to a place where you come. Okay. Thank you very much, everybody. I think what we're going to do is perhaps just first have questions for everybody that has them and then maybe get into sort of more statements and kind of indicative of where we may want to be going with this. I definitely have some questions though. Why don't I start with Supervisor Amstead just for questions. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Is it still the case that the full reduction of the vehicle license fee hasn't taken it to zero and eliminating it would be about $7.8 million. Is that number still good? Yes. All right. I mean, I would be inclined to do that as soon as possible. And then I'm pretty happy with the staff recommendation to provide to lower the personal property tax rate. I would do it on personal vehicles personally. So I'll see where on personal vehicles personally. So I'll see where you all come down on that. Okay, Supervisor Brisbane. Thank you. So if we were to eliminate the decal fee, where they don't get a decal. It's about 7.8. So the last time we did our budget, that was about a half cent on the tax rate. Correct? OK. I just want us to be very aware that if we eliminate revenue coming in, that there may be the case that we need to make that up somewhere else. And that's almost exactly half sent on the tax rate. So just wanted to clarify that. And then as far as lowering the general rate, didn't the data centers have, didn't a bill go through the General Assembly that effectively lowered the valuation for data centers? So in other words, we're already collecting less now that we've gone through that. Is that not correct? The valuation? On real property there was a bill that attempted to give the commissioner direction on how to value data centers. There's another, Mr.schild speak for himself, but essentially there's another statue that tells them to do full value. So I think you've been valuing a full value. Yeah, that was a real property tax assessment legislation and we're talking about personal property taxes in this item today. Oh, it's a different, it was a different tax. It's different tax. But effectively, but effectively, it's not the same tax, but effectively they already got a tax break. It did not result in a reduction in their real property assessment. Oh, OK. OK. Well, that's good to hear. They've been paying it. We had been not budgeting it all of that for the operating budget. We've been holding some of that back because we thought we were going to get appeals. We've resolved that issue. So for FY25, we have fully budgeted those amounts, impacting your fund balance at the end of the year. Okay. All right. And then should we do 60 million, so to speak, which I don't know that I'm in favor of that, I would probably want to start lower. I'm thinking of it as a rebate almost, the data center rebate program. But effectively, if we were to accomplish that, then it would be effectively 60 million that we don't have in our budget for services and pay raises and those sorts of things. That's correct. That's correct, right? So I just want us to be very cognizant that just we're moving that. It feels a little bit like a shell game to me, but we need to be cognizant of the fact that if we do all of this, we're at 67, almost 68 million of revenue that we can't spend on county services, pay raises for our employees, opening facilities facilities which take a lot of staff, correct? So the amount of revenue you would forgo would be, you would either have to make it up or reduce the increase in the budget. Exactly, right. Right. Now, we'd have to make it up probably on the real tax rate. Yes. Yes. Yeah. The only other thing I would say is the 60 million includes the vehicle license fee. Oh, it includes that. OK, so it's not 68. That would be the total. OK. OK. The maximum amount, yes. OK. I am in favor of if we do this of not starting in January of 25. I don't want that mess. 26 maybe and I would like more scenarios with a reduced rebate amount. Thank you. We'll come back to that part. This is just for questions initially. Mr. Saints. Thank you. Thank you for everybody for their presentation and walking this through this very complicated scenarios. So you said you possibly will come back later on for more budget discussions. Could we reach out to the Virginia Tax Commissioner administrative and get an opinion before you come back or whether there be enough time to do that the tax commissioner, the ministerial and get an opinion before you come back. Were there enough time to do that or would it happen after we have our discussions? We've already started that discussion but I think that the real recommendation is that the board, this board asked the full board to consider adding the item to their legislative agenda that they would try to get it passed in this burning. I love to move early on this stuff. Obviously everybody would, but as Supervisor Prisman just said, I mean, this stuff takes time. I don't see a program like this really being ready until implementation January of 26. So I think the board would be well served to instruct the staff to come up with a mechanism that's clear and understandable for the board. That financially how we're going to sustain this at whatever level you decide. Right now we have 48 million going into it. You can put any number you want next to it, but it should be sustainable. The last thing we want to have that I want is people, well last year's tax bill was 850, now it's 1250. People don't budget for the car tax. That's really the rub of the problem. So, don't want to maximize too much time. I'm sorry. So in your opinion, when do you think we could hear back from the Virginia tax commissioner? It's probably going to be after the first of the year at the soonest. I mean, it's not going to be in time to implement. It would be, in my opinion, and Leo certainly can weigh in on it. I mean, you're looking at, in fact, during this end for the following budget year. Okay. Well, the reason I asked the question is to your point about possibly putting it to a legislative program. Because my hope would be we put out the request. We get it before we start our conversations regarding a legislative program because as you know, the general somebody's going to be starting in January in this short session this year, so it's going to be very action-packed. So that's all I was asking through the timeline, but it sounds like it would be kind of running against each other. In regards to holistically, if we were to do anything, my preference would be, yes, to start in 26. I would be in favor possibly. I'm gonna come back. I'm gonna come back. All right, so that was everybody, because some people have said that some people have. So let's get our questions out there. All right, that was my only little question. Go back on opinions. Okay. Chair Randall, questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, Mr. Zuckerberg, thank you. No matter where we come down on this, I think the idea that we are trying to figure out ways to continuously help our constituents financially is a good thing, no matter how we end. So thank you for that. Mr. Himpstreet, as Mr. Brickman said, 8 million on the tax rate would be about 7.8 million on the tax rate, be about half penny. Did I hear you say something about that can be covered with fun balance? Or did I thought I heard you say that? Did you say that just in? Yeah, well I think what I said was if you make the decision to do that in January 25, that amount would be foregone revenue that we did not plan for, which would have- So it would be a one time, because it would be a one time, okay. By FI-25, fine. All right. So for just that one time, because it wasn't planned for, fun balance could be- Right, I understand. We would roll it into the- I understand, that makes sense. To that issue, though, of what we're already starting to plan for, if I'm not mistaken, you are already starting to build the budget that you will present to us. That process is underway. And so we have to be no matter where we land, we have to be very cognizant of we're in FY25. And we're doing FY25 budget budgeting already. And so to a very large degree, you have already assumed to, well not a very large degree, the sum degree with FY25 could look like and you are we talking to the department heads about what they may or may not need, is that correct? FY26, so we're currently in FY25, so whatever. So let me first ask, yes, exactly, if it's in FY26. Yeah, that's already begun, that process has begun already. Okay, that's really important to know. Mr. Eichelberg, I think it was on slide number 11, the local personal property tax relief concept. You said something and again, it was you were moving kind of fast. And so if I misunderstood you, I apologize. I know what that is. I know where that came from, another how that came to be. Did you say that the towns get that separate from the county? Because I knew cities did because they're separate, but I didn't know that. So our incorporated towns get that separate from the county. The answer is yes. I didn't know that. I appreciate you raising it because it is important to understand that whatever the county does, the towns are not bound by that, which is fine. But if let's say you get rid of the $25 fee, they also have their own $25 fee, and we would assess that for that. You say people in town are charged twice? No. No. If you're in a town, you pay it to the town. Or you pay it to us. But the towns don't have to do it at all. They can make their decision. Correct. Just like our locality doesn't have to be there. I really did think that only applied to cities. I did not realize that applied to incorporated towns. So thank you for letting me know that that's good. That's good. That's good. There's four three towns that don't have the car tax. The other four or do and they receive money from Richmond for that purpose. That's good to know. Is it based on population? It's based on, go ahead, Bob. It's based on the percentage of relief that they received back in 2006. Okay, that makes sense. So, Mr. Lieutenant, I will say comments for comments. Those are my questions. Thank you. I'll jump in with some comments and then we'll go to our committee colleagues. A question, sorry. So the 7.8 million, the vehicle licensing fee, we used to call it the decal fee. When we, I don't know how many, with Chair Randall, you were on the board and two restrooms that, and just saying it's when we eliminate that, right? So you all probably remember, the reason we kept it in places, it was supposed to be used specifically for enforcement of overall cartex. So we had this thing called project fairness. The sheriff's office had two deputies detailed to the treasurer's office. Yeah, and we got pushed because there needed to be resources allocated specifically to actually doing enforcement and identifying vehicles and so on. So I feel like we're completely missing that entire discussion in this. So I would like to turn it over to our constitutional officers to ask some questions about it. Where we are with enforcement, what happened after we lost the deputies, the sheriff wanted them back on the streets, so there's no longer detail to the treasurer's office. But where are we with all this, and what should we be doing about it? I can give, sorry. The long and the short of it is Project Fairness ran for about 20 years from 1997 to 2018. In 2018, we started doing tax collections for the towns and exchange for doing the tax collections for the towns. There was a decision made that we weren't going to handle stickers for the towns and for the county and it was going to be a bear to mail out the right stickers to the right people. So they got rid of the stickers. Effective July 1st of 2019. At that time, the sheriff's deputies no longer were on duty for enforcement. And the commissioner of the revenue got two people for compliance. And that's where we're at today. I can tell you, if I thought that keeping the 25 bucks would help on compliance, I wouldn't be here recommending getting rid of it. But unless you want to go back to stickers, which had the effect of compliance, because you could visually see, hey, it's got it, the car cars got it or it doesn't. The $25 in itself serves no purpose other than it's $7.8 million to the county. Which we're, you could argue are funding those two compliance positions that the commissioner has. Well, there are also generating money from their compliance efforts. Regardless of whether there's a license fee or not. I think the board's decision back then when vehicle license fees or vehicle decals were eliminated was they weren't interested in foregoing the money. They wanted that money from the license fee and that's the board's decision that they made. The understanding was that the project fairness was going to go away. And I was going to have two folks in my office who handling the compliance activity, which they do. I think there were unknowns unknown at that time with what it would cost to do the equivalent work that we were having done. Right? Yes. So I guess my question though is, so if somebody is registering their vehicle in Virginia, we find out about, they're supposed to file with your office, the commissioner's office, but eventually you'll likely get that information from the DMV. The question though is, what about all those vehicles out there that are not registered in Virginia, whether they're the exotic vehicles registered in Montana to avoid sales tax and all that? Or there's a, I mean, not to throw my neighbors on the bus. There's cars in my neighborhood with Maryland plates that I know are living there. So I feel like what we've lost since Project Fairness went away is our enforcement of that. So have we lost that? I don't think it was Project Fairness. I think it was the license and decal license enforcement mechanism that existed when you had a decal. But if you see a vehicle. The way that it normally operates now, the majority of our vehicles, we do receive information from the Department of Motor Vehicles. If you do what you're supposed to with DMV, and you go to DMV and you go to DMV and you tell them that your vehicle moved and when it actually moved, we will get that information on a weekly basis. We will mail a notice to you as a property owner and we will tell you DMV notified us that you moved a vehicle to Loudoun County. When did you move that vehicle to Loudoun County? Is this the corrected dress? One of the reasons we do a mailing is we want to verify the mailing address for Collections purposes so the Treasurer's Office will be able to to send out a build of those people so that I would tell you first on the list of Things that a new resident to Loudoun County does is not go to DMV to tell them that they move from fair facts to allow their tags are still good. Right? So one of the reasons we're communicating with them is we want to know when it came to the county. Not when did you tell DMV it came to the county but when? We're appropriating locality and you're supposed to tell us when it came in so that we can charge you tax by the month. On those vehicles that are outside the campus or registered to other states, my compliance people do discover those. We do have some various student citizens who will communicate with us on a regular basis of vehicles that have a template. Yes, we do. We do? We do. I don't think anybody's promoted that or anything in a long time. Well, you can call it what you like. It's equitable for folks to pay the tax or supposed to pay. We also communicate with our apartment complexes on an annual basis and got a list of tenants who reside there so that we can match that with the vehicles that are located in the county. I will tell you those out of state vehicles with Montana tags is a challenge. If you see those, take a picture and send it to me and we'll be more than happy to reach out to those individuals. That is actually an industry these days. If you go online and look up Montana licenses, there's an industry where they set up limited liability companies to own exotic vehicles. We are more than happy to build those limited liability companies and we are doing that. And we actually got a call from a taxpayer the other day. He was wondering how we found out about his vehicle. It was through the LLC? It was. Yeah, you have to have a registered agent for a limited liability company. So the attorney that received the bill was more than happy to reach out to the property owner. About his exotic vehicle with his Montana tax that he has here in Virginia. So anyway, we do use multiple efforts trying to locate those pieces of property, but that's what's going on right now. Yeah, for those of you that don't know, the Montana thing, basically, if you buy like a Ferrari, they're getting your Bentley, which sure everybody up here drives. My plan is, we're at 100,000. You can, yeah, you can register it in Montana. If you have an LLC, they'll set up a PO box for you. You don't pay sales tax on it, which is big money on a million dollar car. And then you avoid property taxes and things like that. You think you're avoiding property taxes? Okay. Well, I feel a little better, Mr. Wards. So the bottom line is the vehicle license fee is not going really at this point toward enforcement No, it is not for us. Okay. My other question was going to be just on The ratio so we're trying to get to 60% or at like 53% now I Guess my question would be if we eliminate the vehicle licensing fee for go that almost eight million dollars How much can we lower the personal property tax rate on vehicles specifically, and still not drop under at least the 50-50 ratio that I think we identified as a problem. And you may not have that number on hand, but that's. So the ratio wants you to increase the share of real estate taxes. So any less coming from personal property or other local taxes would benefit your ratio. Oh, I know. But I want to know exactly how much on a scale basis so that we could figure out if we wanted to what we could reduce the property. And I know, Mr. Hemstrich, you're going to argue for reducing the general tax as well, which would include data centers. I think you're going to have some policy opposition to that, or at least principled opposition to that here. But what is the reasoning for that from your standpoint? Well, why would you argue to lower- So I think we would argue that the vehicle portion of the personal property tax portfolio is more stable than the computer equipment portion. And so when you start making that a lower percentage of your overall revenue portfolio, it just creates some additional instability. And it also makes the board more reliant on the computer equipment portion. It just decreases your diversity in terms of your revenue. Okay. All right. So, the rest of the recording. Thank you. And thank you for all this. So during our FY 2025 budget discussion, we did talk about lowering the vehicle tax from 415 to 410 if SB 195 passed and SB 195 passed. So now we can split out the classifications and I just want to confirm that if we lower the vehicle tax to 410 starting in January 2025 that reduction from 415 to 410 is worth 2.8 million On annual basis on it annual half of that for fiscal 25, so it's about 1.5 correct Quick can that be absorbed do you think the county can absorb that in the 24 fund balance? We would recommend you absorb that in the 25 fund balance. Okay, that's right. Okay, but it's worth about 1.5 to lower it. And that's what we discussed during the FY 2025 budget. So I do have a question. Can we go to the table scenarios for FY 26? Okay. So is that 60,000 that we talk about that we have to forego? Is that where it comes from or is it half of the 130 to do the personal property tax relief program that I do support because I did bring it up. So what this chart represents is we're saying you can the maximum amount of personal property tax relief that staff would recommend at FY 26 is about $60 million. How do you get there is up to you? So that's part of the guidance that there is up to you? Okay. And so that's part of the guidance that we would want to receive from you. Yeah, thank you. But it includes non-vehicles, right? As far as foregone revenue. Yeah. So that's, yeah, sorry. If we take that out, if we take that out, if we keep the general rate of 415, we won't really have that, right? The foregone revenue of 28 million. So again, yes, I think what you're saying is correct. What this is is based off of a maximum amount of $60 million in foregone revenue. And so if you were to forego $60 million, we kind of put together notionally how you might get there. So that first column is reducing the general rate to 395, which then has those impacts on the vehicle classification, even though it's a subset of the general classification. We just broke out vehicles and non-vehicles so you can see how that reduction in the tax rate impacts those classifications. And then we assume the elimination of the vehicle license fee. But you can get to that $58 or $60 million in any combination of those things. So you could tell us, which is part of our question, which is what scenarios do you want us to run? So if you wanted to, instead of doing 60 million in relief, you could do 30 million. And so if you did 30 million, then we would say do you want to do that 100% on reduction of the vehicle rate, or do you want to do that between reducing the vehicle license fee and a reduction on the vehicle rate so that we can come back to you with those scenarios for budget guidance. So, so that this is just an example, it's just a notional way you could get there, but we could get there any number of ways depending on what the board wants to do. Yeah, because I don't support lowering the general rate, just want to say I don't support that. And the general rate includes the computer data center equipment. So how can we guarantee the money to provide the tax relief is coming from data center revenue for the personal property tax relief program? How do we guarantee that? So the board would just designate that it's that the so if we were to do if we were to get authority from the General Assembly to to supplement the state's personal property tax relief that would be an expenditure that would be the credit that the treasure was referring to and we would just say it's coming from data center revenue we could do that through a formula we could do that through just a straight designation. So we could come from either POT, either the data center real property tax or the data center personal property tax. Am I correct? I mean, it could come from either one of those sources. We would say it's coming from the increase in revenue from data center. From data centers, taxes paid by data centers, yes. Yeah, I just want to be clear, it's money you're not collecting. So you're not paying anything. And you're certainly not going to charge the data centers more because you offer the credit. You're just saying instead of me charging you $700 on your car, I'm going to only charge you $400 on your car. Because I'm going to say that 300 of it was as a result of a data center tax relief or credit. And that would be based on this new data center revenue as it starts to roll into the county. That's why I think that taking a look at this and how you can come up with an algorithm that adds some certainty to it as data centers come online as they buy equipment, you're now sharing in that additional revenue by reducing a real pain point for individuals. That's the point. If you lower the rate, then you've got to increase the rate if there's a problem. If you keep the rate the same and you just offset it with this credit, then the algorithm takes care of that for you. And then it's easier for people to understand, oh hey, we had a data center. They didn't refresh their equipment. That means that the credit that we're going to get this year is going to be less than it was last year. But in any event, it's foregone revenue. Right, that's what I was talking about. You're not collecting it. Yeah. But it's for on revenue. Well, I guess my concern is that I wouldn't want to see us have to increase the personal property, or not the personal, the real property tax rate to do this program. So we got to figure out a way where we're doing this, where we're not giving residents a credit on their cars, but increasing their real property tax, right? See what I'm saying? Right, no, I do it. I totally get that, and that would be the point of coming up with the algorithm. Well, so I just want to be clear, the board has been increasing the budget every year. So it's foregone revenue. Totally. So to do the control on that is on the expenditure side of the budget. I'll just say it that way. Okay. Thank you. So you guys are turn. Thank you, Mr. Chair. you guys, the turner. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can we stand in this chart for just a second? I want to walk through this because I'm barely hanging on by my fingernails. So if we reduce the vehicle tax rate to 410, it's currently at 415. And we kept the non-vehicle tax rate at 415. We would give up a half penny, and if we did that now, and it took effect in the second half of fiscal 25, we would forego $1.4 million for that half cent of the vehicle tax rate. Correct? Five cents. So there would be five cents. Four cents. Four 15 to four. So it would be five cents. Four cents. Four cents. Four, 15 to four. So it's five pennies. So it's going for four, 15 to four, 10 per hundred. But it's worth about 1.5 million. That's correct. So that would be about 1.5 million for six months. 2.8 or 2.9. For the full year. Okay, so we would forego 1.4, 1.5 for the half year, the first half year. We got rid of the vehicle licensing fee, we'd forego 7.8 million. So now we're sitting at 9.2 million foregone if we did it that way. If you did that in January of 25. Correct. Then we would roll into fiscal 26, presumably, with a 415 general rate and a 410 vehicle tax rate. We could implement the PPR program, discretionary, and decide what percentage of additional relief we want to give people for their personal vehicles. We would roll over that 9.2, I think I said million, that would roll into fiscal 26's budget. And we would add the percentage that we chose as part of the PPR program to that 9.2 million as a starting point. And we could decide where that percentage would be. We are now foregoing. This is all personal property tax revenue we're foregoing. So that tells me if we don't do anything else we are helping the ratio. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. Because we are only affecting personal property tax and it's a computer personal property tax that's throwing the weight ratio out of whack. So if we reduce personal property tax no matter where we reduce it, we're improving that ratio. Yes. But we are forgoing that amount of revenue every year and the forgone revenue from January 25 to June to July 1st, 25 would affect the fiscal 25 end of year fund balance, which would be December of 25 that we would see that reduction and foregone revenue. Correct. That's correct. Wow. Thank you. Okay. Another question from Supervisor Brisbane and then I think we're just going to run down the diodes here and get everybody's thoughts and see if we can find the stuff. This confused me a little bit when you put it up there because this is the 26 notional scenarios. Why would it impact the 25 fund balance? I thought we would only impact the 25 fund balance if we started on January 1st. Correct. That's why we put it there. We put both with there. So if you change your rate or made all these movements effective January 26, then that impact on 25-hundreds will be zero. It goes away. It would be zero. We just wanted to have a chart that kind of notionally shows. Okay, all right. Thank you for clarifying. Okay. Jay Raynelly, let me start on your end. Sure. Sure. So thank you. And again, thank you. Thank you for being here. I think we just informed a lot of people about how to do a car scam that they didn't know about before they sat down today. Oh, trust me. You buy one of these cars. There's a lot of people we haven't talked about yet. So I'm obviously not ready to make any decisions and we'll look for much more information. But one of the things we haven't talked about is county growth. So as we're talking about cutting taxes, basically, I would want to see some comparisons to how much the county has grown year over year over year. And who has come to the county year over year over year? And what some of those expenses are for whether that be roads or any of the infrastructure expenses. And so it's hard to have this discussion kind of in a bubble without having that other side. I am of the belief and to be quite honest, Mr. Eichelberg, it's interesting because I didn't hear one person ask me about the card, that's $25 what I was running for office, not a single person. Now I think it's a good idea to do it. I think that's a probably you question for lots of reasons because your name's on all the text moves they get. So that's the burden you carry. I think it's a good idea to do it. But it's always a hard balance because we want to make sure that what I always say is I want to have the lowest text rate possible while still offering needed county services. And I'm careful to say not every county service but needed county services. And I'm careful to say not every county service, but needed county services. And so I'd have to give a lot more thought about what's needed county services. When I look at some of our departments that we've done a much better job funding departments that we hadn't really for a long time were underfunded. But we still know that there's needs out there for a lot of reasons. When we do, it is a comparator counties and our comparator counties are still the ones we use are just the ones in Northern Virginia. Although what we know for a fact is that we have, is the county we lose people to work to first is Fairfax. But second, it's Montgomery County. And so we don't even do, well, we do for part of it, for Maryland, but not all of it. So there's all these things I wanted to know before I could make any decisions. After that, I know that if whatever we do, it wouldn't be for this fiscal year, because it's just too close in and we've already started. We have been, Mr. Hemstries, I've already started working on the budget. But I am certainly open to having, I'm always open to having discussions about how, you know, we are, are fiscally responsible with our spending and how that looks and what that looks like. Obviously, we have to have the same discussion with LCPS for obvious reasons. And one of the, no, what their growth is as well. So, you know, the only decision I would be able to make right now is I'm not really able to make any other decisions except for the vehicle license in fee right now. But I'm certainly open to having these discussions, getting some of those questions answered. And, and trivially, if we can do something I would, I think 60 is a really high number. But I don't think that there's, I think there's probably something from between zero to 60. I just don't know what that is yet. But once again, let me say I really do appreciate you. And Mr. Croney, who started talking about this during the election cycle, I appreciate you very much having some of these talks. I think this is a great way to start this discussion. Mr. Rikleborg, I think. Yeah, Very quick. We're only asking about the removing the VLF and seeking the legal authority to give you a tool. That's it. Both of those things about what to do later is going to be needed. Both of those things for me are already. Those are kind of the obvious yeses for those two items. So thank you very much. Yeah, although Chair Randall, the question is when to get rid of the vehicle licensing fee in 25 or so. Would do it now. You would do the 8 million now. No, I would do the 7.8 million now. No one would miss to him to say about the fund balance discussion. Would you say I would do that now? Yes, I would. Okay. Supervisor Amsterdam. I would agree with that. I would do it now. And go along with staff's recommendation to the Treasurer's recommendation to add an item to our legislative agenda while he also pursues it through his administrative network. Thank you. Okay, I think he's going to be split up and he's up here on this, Mr. Sains. Thank you. All right. Well, I'll ask for some scenarios to come back to us regarding if we kept the general tax rate at one price point for the data centers and then we brought it down for the vehicle tax rate. There'll be one request and for me it would be in 26, if we were to do that. Secondly, and can you clarify, if we were to do that, secondly, and can you clarify, if we were to do, remove the vehicle licensing fee, one of my two colleagues just said now, are they meaning like now in 25, or is that January in 26? Can you clarify that real quickly? That's your decision. So they said they wanted it in 25. Yeah, Chair Randall and two Roger Armstrong's thoughts said 25. 25 and then use fund balance to make up that the difference. Okay. So we bill the $25 on the May 25 bill which falls in the last half of the 25 year. And so it would be either don't put it on this maze bill or don't put it on the following may Okay, thank you for that clarification You'll need a little bit I would have to see what the fun bounces make my decision up And I am open to removing the the vehicle license fee and then can be a clarification regarding Getting the opinion from the Virginia tax commission. You said you already reached out and officially asked for that request or you need us to do that. Just talk what I would need from the board, what's the staff would need from the board is just to add it to the legislative agenda in case that the administrative process, they say we can't help you. We need a law change. Okay, and I'm fine with that. We can, I think we have our legislative discussion will be coming in the meeting after the November election. So I guess you can check, obviously check with your request and then give us an update when we have that item coming back to us in November. And depending on the timing, we can add it into our package. Perfectly fine with that. So yeah, that's all for me. And again, thank you for the discussion. We're walking us through this complex scenarios here. Okay, so Rose and Brisbane. Yeah, I would just echo thank you for putting, you know, your brain power behind this. We appreciate it. For the, I call it a rebate, but for the relief program, I definitely would not be starting it until 26. I'm a yes on putting it in a legislative agenda. I would like staff to present us with tears of, you know, what would happen at 25 million, what would happen at 60 million, what would happen at 60 million, what would happen at 10, that sort of thing. And, you know, I don't know that I would agree that we should not do the vehicle licensing this coming in this fiscal year. We budgeted for that. We budgeted for that. We budgeted for that $7.8 million. And that makes me nervous. I feel like we probably could cover it in our fund balance. I know it's gonna be rather large this year, but I would prefer to do that in 26. I'm not opposed to doing it. I understand all the reasons why, and that it doesn't seem to make sense to have it anymore, but we did budget to it in the 25th fiscal year. So I would, that would give me a little bit of heartburn. And then for the program overall, I feel like we're in a little bit of a pickle because we are, we're trying to plan for basically a surplus that we are not sure is coming, right? We think it's coming. We've seen it maybe the last two years, but we're not sure. And so, and I don't want to throw a wrench in the works or sand in the gears, but I would much rather see a program that said, and starting in 26, that says, some percentage of the surplus that we have from data centers should go to the following year as a tax rebate. In other words, I feel less comfortable committing to a tax rebate of 25 or 60 million when we don't, when we're not positive, the surplus is coming in. Does that make sense? So it would delay the implement, I think doing it, and I think that might be the algorithm you were talking about where each year, we say whatever, I'm repeating myself, I apologize, but I'm uncomfortable planning for a surplus. We're not sure it's happening. so I'd rather see it go into implementation in 26. We agree that a certain percentage of the surplus that comes in would be a tax rebate the following year. I don't know if staff can work out some sort of scenario like that, but that would make me a lot more comfortable. So we can, that is different from any of the proposals you've heard this evening. I know, I'm sorry. Well, no, I would, it's fine, it would just be a check, there's good tissue. No, I would argue that I agree with you 100%. That's what, at least how I envision it, what the algorithm is, Stephen, I have talked about what could we come up with that's constant that gets you where you're at. What we're saying is you need the legal authority to do that. We're asking for the authority. I don't agree with that. So what the vice chair just said is we wait until we have year-and-fund balance. And then a percentage of year-and-fund balance is issued as a rebate to the taxpayer in the following year. That's which is different from a credit on recurring revenue that's collected every year. You're Mike. You're Mike. Sorry I view it more semantically than that. It's not mechanically though. It's very different. We can't clear a different. Yeah. They would both require different actions from the board and different. Well, I stand corrected then. Yeah. All right. Let me weigh in a little bit. So I think, sorry, were you finished? Oh, OK. I am. Thank you very much. OK. So that's interesting. I think we need more discussion on this. I think what I'm concerned about is this is discussion about reducing revenue. Our budget discussions are not usually about reducing expenditure. I have been saying, and you all know this for about two years, that I think we need to slow the rate of growth in the county. I started voting a little bit more that way in the last budget cycle and I probably will again, but that isn't I'm not the majority on that and we have not slow in the rate of growth in the county and then in some of our other discussions we're having the troll aware of that doesn't seem to be the direction we're going in. So I'm having trouble in my mind sort of understanding how this fits with that regardless of kind of where you come down on what we need to do and what we should do, the reality is right now we haven't really been doing it. So I would need also to probably see the full fund balance picture before committing to 8 million of it here. Certainly for the following year I think absolutely for 26, for 25, I'm not sure. So I don't know if there's a way timing wise where we can see this in time to be able to decide and be able to implement that if we're comfortable with this as a use of fund balance. What I do think we could do, and Supervisor Dukroni mentioned it was, it's pretty inexpensive to lower it to 410, which is I think we're going to go. It's only a couple million dollars. I think for sure we could cover that in fund balance. So I would say we could do that for 25, maybe for the vehicle license fee for 25. I want to see this scenario as I ask for on the ratios and what would happen. Sort of on a sliding scale if we reduce just the vehicle side of the personal property tax fee. And then obviously let's pursue the legislative authority and the legal authority to try to see what we can do on the overall program and then look at longer term allocating whether it's a portion or a set amount of money toward that. So I think there is a little bit of a lack of consensus on the committee about the timing of the vehicle licensing fee and I don't know how others feel about the 410 for January 25. It's only a couple of million. So why don't we have this item come back to us next month? Can we do that? Well based off your calendar, this is coming back to you in the form of budget guidance. Yes. And so this discussion also is going to you on Tuesday on the 16th, although there's seven members here. Two additional members that would're participating at the conversation. I mean, theoretically it's with you next month but we're bringing budget guidance. We can use the budget guidance item. I think we have to make a decision on what we want to do in January of 25. Because it has a full bell certification this year. You need to make that decision on your December 3rd meeting because if you're going to change the rate that would forward to the public hearing in January, Mr. Warts, if you're making a rate change, so if you're going from 415 to 410, that decision needs to be made on December 3rd. And for the vehicle license fee, when does that decision need to be made? By February? Yeah, because it kits build and in March. Yeah, it's one use that, when you get guidance on what the rate is. Yeah, so we would be looking for that decision. I think for our budget purposes also in December, so we would want you to make those decisions on December 3rd. Well, I guess what I'm asking though is, So we would want you to make those decisions on December 3rd. I guess what I'm asking is, why don't we actually see the use of fund balance item? So the use of fund balance for FY24 fund balance will come to you in December. What we're talking about is these impacts will be 25. We're really not going to have more information about that. No, because that impacts your FY27 budget. The only thing we may have is a little bit more indication of revenue trends in the current fiscal year. When is your next, is that quarterly update us on that? That'll be in November. Okay. So we'll have that portion of the fiscal year update. We can at least see if we're running to the positive again, so I'm guessing we probably are. Yeah, we're not forecasting a very different amount of over recovery than what's in this item, which is about $130 million. Okay. All right. So FY 24 we're looking at somewhere over 200 million. Yeah, because we can't allocate any of that to this. You know theoretically you could but you'd be putting that in your FI26 budget. Okay. I mean. Why don't you think about that a little? We could talk more. I would just say just do it in FY25, but the board can... Yeah, but I think the issue with your hearing is a little bit... Because we have uncertainty, ultimately, about what FY25 fun balance it would look like, whereas we'll have FY24 in front of us. So with recommended uses. So let's think about that a little bit more. Sure. All right. So we're coming back next month. I think there's no motion tonight. The only thing that we need is an action item, right? So we would be bringing this to the board on Tuesday with no recommendation from finance. Mr. Chairman, if I may. Please. So I don't think there's any issue at all with making the other motion as far as going to the General Assembly. That motion. I just assume we were going to do that in our first legislative session item, in front of the full board. Well, sure, if we want to do it tonight, we can do it. I prefer to do it tonight because I prefer to have as little as possible to do on the Tuesday meeting, which is a really, really, back to June. Either way, we have to do it. I know, but yeah. So if you want to forgo this discussion on the 16th, that just means the two members that aren't here would not be part of that. Yeah, I know. I know. They should, I don't know how they didn't come. Because. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's such an issue that I was just trying to make sure the full board has the opportunity to- You just offer briefings to those two other board members? I'm scheduled to be briefings for me. Okay, okay then. Does that have to be on 16th of the agenda? That's what we're saying. We don't think it does. I actually don't think it, yeah. No, that's not a matter of me. No, I would not put it on the 16th agenda. The overall item. Overall item, exactly. Yeah, well let's just keep it here. And then I'll go ahead and move the finance government operations act and I would develop and committee recommend the board of supervisors to add the authority to create a local personal property tax relief program to the 2025 legislative program. A second and the name move Lord the crony. I can't and in the spirit of the resident. The spirit of Lord the crony. Well she's not in the community but otherwise yes. Yes, yes. Sorry. But we thank Supervisor Tacroni for bringing the issue for. All right, any discussion on that motion? Favorite say aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Motion carries 5-0. Any discussion on that motion? Favorite say aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Motion carries 5-0. Okay. So you have that one. Yeah, so we'll just carry that into the legislative. And this is legislative. Yeah. Yeah. And then you're going to keep this overall item off the 10-16 full board agenda, but you're going to come back to have we did ask a bunch of questions up here, which I think is that bad. So you're going to bring that back to us. Do you want to hear the scenarios that we heard? Do we want to make sure that everybody has? Okay, sure. I just don't want to make Megan talk though. That's the problem. Well, I can't read her notes. The good thing is my, it sounds worse than it feels. All right, so Supervisor Sains asks for scenarios that would keep the general rate at 415 and lower the vehicle rate starting in tax year 26. And then Supervisor Brisbane, or vice chair of Brisbane, excuse me, asks for different targets instead of 60 million, what would 10 million? Various targets look like starting for tax year 26. And then, Chair Laterno asked for similar scenarios, but ensuring that the ratios were considered in the various tax rates. Did I capture that correctly? I think so. Yes. Chair Randall? I do want, thank you Mr. Chairman, I do want to understand the growth in the county. The growth in the county is far as population budget. Yes, physician. It's far as population. I'm sorry. It's far as population growth. Population growth. The poor capacity growth or them. Okay, thank you. Thanks. Chair the turn. Yes, by the chair, Mr. Seniors, VLF January 125 and then VLF January 126. The elimination. Yeah, those are the two scenarios. Plus, I do put on the table 410 and 25 as well. Okay. You got that 410 at 25. Okay. You got that 410. One thing I didn't hear was that if we are allowed to do the, um, instead of forecasting to do more the fund balance idea, the rebate. The rebate, yeah, the rebate idea. So we can definitely do that. That's not a, that's not a budget impact because you're paying that out of fund balance in the following year. But fund balance is a bigger bucket than just a fund balance is a much bigger bucket than specifically under predicting what we're getting from data center personal property tax. Well so I so So, so I, to me, it's a line, I'd like to see like a line item. How much did we get over what we forecasted that can be applied to next year's car tax? The next fiscal year's car tax. So. So we can call it the same. Overcooked and fund balance is a one-time revenue stream. So it's either collection of fund balance, and we take a percentage of fund balance, and we issue that as a refund to the taxpayer in the subsequent year, which would be off budget, because it's based off of whatever amount is over collected in a percentage of the over collection. Right? Or it's looking at recurring revenues and we're providing tax relief on recurring revenues which occurs every year in the same amount or same percentage, however we want to look at it. Which would be based off of whatever our budget forecast is for that year and the amount of revenue that we believe we can forego and still accomplish the significant needs of the county on the expenditure side. I'll talk to you guys more. I'll talk to you more offline. Could I see your ray reduction or it's a personal property tax percentage, personal property tax relief percentage reduction. Thank you. So I don't know if we can look at the fiscal impact of restoring the general class to 420 and lowering the vehicle tax to 410. Because for 25 years we had it at 420 and then we went to 415 for tax year, I believe 23 and 24, am I right? Did we, yeah, so that's correct. So I'm wondering if we might look at that too, just restoring it to 420 and how that would look. Because I hear Vice Chair Briskman and how she wants to look at the surplus. Well maybe this is another way to look at it. If we're at with the general class at 420, maybe that could provide some of that. And I know we've talked about this this some of that funding for what we want to do with the license fee and what we potentially want to do with the tax relief. We can definitely run a scenario that increases the tax rate. Okay. Just to restore it to that. What we had for 25 years. So that would be an increase in the tax rate, I just want to make sure we're clear that's an increase in the tax rate which will have an impact on your percentage of real property versus personal property in your overall tax portfolio. We can definitely run it but it is a tax rate increase, it is a tax increase. I just want to make sure that's clear. Right, for the general class. And we can tease out all of 48, 27, 26, 40. Tease it all out and just have the general class be the 420, being utilities and computer data center equipment. So general class is every everything that's in personal property unless it is a separate class that has a different rate. Right, which it does. So I was going to make clear that it's everything that is not that doesn't have a different tax rate in a special class. That's correct. But the ones I mentioned do have a different. You could set a separate on these other classes that are spelled out. I could. 48 is the vehicles. 48 is the vehicles. Yeah. But I think just look, I think basically what I'm asking is just to look at one scenario that goes to 420 to the general class. Not the vehicles, but the general class. Okay, so that's another scenario and then Supervisor Turner. Do you want to add to the scenarios? No, I'm not adding the scenarios. I just want to clarify what Supervisor Tegroni just said, make sure I understand my mind what the effect would be. So if we lower the vehicle tax, which is now separate by SB, what is it? SB 194 if we lower the vehicle tax to 410 and we raise the General personal property tax to 420 That will hurt the ratio and the rate the amount that it will hurt the ratio is is hurt Far more by the the raise because it's the bigger portion of that personal property tax compared to just a vehicle tax. So the ratio will be hurt and it will be hurt considerably more than it is helped by the reduction in the personal property tax. Correct, although there will be relative amounts, they could be relatively small amounts. But yes, proportionately that's correct. Okay, thank you. And you would argue that it Reemphasizes the less stable part of the personal property tax and I would argue it makes you more dependent on Yeah, which is a philosophical question. I guess we have to grapple. Yes. All right. I think we've kind of been this dead horse tonight So thank you everybody. We'll see you all next month and the committee is going to take a break Thank you I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. you I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. All right, we'll call the committee back into order with item number 15, non-profit organizations request for property tax exemption by designation. So that Mr. Worth can go home. Why thank you so much, Chair. Return now. Maybe I'll stick around for all the rest of the items. Oh, you're welcome to you now. You'll be welcome. You know, I don't have anything else for one more night. Mr. Chairman and committee members, this is your annual item regarding tax exemptions for nonprofit charitable organizations. We had, you had requested some additional information to come back regarding B-foundation. They actually do have a physical location in Loudon, they're on Silver Book Drive. There were comments relative to Cornerstone's Inc. And relative to their foreclosure prevention programs. Supervisor Umstead had mentioned that she wasn't aware that they did that in the county, but they provided mitigation services to 16 Loudon households to help them stay in their homes. As you know, a public hearing is required in order to grant tax exemption for 2025. The fiscal impact, the hypothetical fiscal impact of granting all these organizations and exemption had they been exempt. This calendar year would have been about $90,000 and I've got Rob Drake here, my deputy of tax exemptions and deferrals and we are happy to answer any questions that you might have relative to the item. Okay, thank you for the follow up information. Are there additional questions to your window? Yeah, just to remind me. So we, we, we sent you back for those, well, not sent you back, but asked you to come back on those two, but we haven't done a public hearing for any of them. That is correct. That's correct? Okay, thank you. Yeah, I think, so tonight we're going to recommend to the board which organizations that we move forward than the board was sent Senate's public hearing. And I will remind everybody I am not making a motion to do any of them, because I don't ever support doing any of these. But I may vote no on some of them, depending on which ones you all want to move forward. So, and I'm staying on others. So, I would entertain a motion. I'm just going to ask you that. Do you want us to, I mean, we'd have to go through these. Well, I can make a motion and you can tell us which ones that you have issues with or want to pull out. That's why you have to make motions one at a time. Yes. If you wanted to move all of them, I've just been in the, say, best time. I think the two that I would probably not support under any circumstance or the society for imaging informatics and medicine and well as for conservancy. The other three I would abstain. So you want to vote against two and then abstain? I mean, vote against two. So you wanted to move the first three? Yeah. Why don't we do that? That's just a draft motion. I think it's there's five total right? There's six total. Okay. So be the first motion. I think there's five total right? There's six total. Okay. So be the first motion. I moved the Finance Department of Operation Economic Development Committee, recommended the Board of Advisors, refer all eligible applications, identify and test them on until the October 8th, 2024 Finance Government of Operation Economic Development Committee, action, committee action item to a future public hearing for consideration of an ordinance granting the requested property tax exemptions. Okay, motions made to our seconds. All of them. All of them. I can separate. And when we can separate out. Okay, second by super-reservoir. I will move to separate society for imaging and for medics and medicine and well as for a conservancy from that. All right, so then I will be remaining for the next statement. Yeah. Listen, I think overall when I look at our nonprofits, our nonprofits save us money overall and I do believe that there is a there is not I do believe I know that there is value to doing some of the things that the county government Just because word can get won't won't do and shouldn't we cannot do everything and so we ask for our nonprofit and faith-based partners to help us do some things. And so what they're saying to us is, you know, can they have some level of financial assistance themselves? I believe that what they will, what is costing us, they're going to save us more than these cost us. And so, as I have done since I've been here, I'm going to support the nonprofits. Now let me be clear, I don't think Mr. Eternal doesn't support our nonprofits. He has been very consistent in his votes since I've been here every time. But I do believe that it is wise for the county to impart and with nonprofits and do these. So. Okay. But, but this is for the four. This is for the four. Yeah. So, any other discussion on the motion? Yeah. So I traditionally abstain on this item, mostly because I don't like separating this out having a property tax discussion that is separate from the nonprofit grant funding discussion that we have. And I don't like the fact that we don't have any real objective criteria on the board side for deciding which nonprofits get relief or not. I think it leaves it subjective and it leaves us in the position of sometimes and we do sometimes vote no on certain nonprofits where if we had criteria from the get go, some of them probably would know not to apply and then we wouldn't have to go through that and they wouldn't have to go through the paperwork and so on. So I will continue that track record of abstentions. I'll end up here with a motion. I'd like to have a close. Oh, I'm sorry, of course. Yeah, sure enough. So Mr. Luterner, you've said that for years, and I don't disagree, but I think that at some point, we dance, stop singing, and then just do it. I did bring an item, so I didn't get. Well, then I mean, bring another one. Let's do it again, because I support it, We absolutely got away from what it used to be, which is if you can snag a supervisor and talk to them along enough, then Europe item would go forward. And we spent my gosh, like two years putting this whole process in place. So I won't say we don't have any criteria or any process, but do I think it can be more clear, more honed? Sure. Until we do that, though, I'm not going to, with no process in place, I'm not going to punish the ones who've come forward under this process. But I am more than happy and I supported it before and that was another term and another board. Let's try it again. Okay. We'll try this term. All right. Well, if you had the motion, say aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries 401. And then did you want to make a motion for the? That's. Sorry, 301. 301. Yeah, 301. Mr. Kitsains is absent. 3. That's right. No, that's not. That's not. That's not. That's what we would say. 3-0. Yes, three zero one one. Yes, okay, and then Sure, you want to make a motion on the other two? I don't know because And so if there is no motion somebody else can make a motion, but I'm not gonna make a motion And I am also being consistent with these okay, no further motions then Thank you very much, mr.arrant. Thank you. All right. All right, item 16 is update an American Rescue Plan Act spending in October 2024 reallocation recommendations. All right. Good evening, Chair LaTerno and committee members. Just wanted to start off at summary level as far as an update on upper funding. Currently we are at about 95% obligation of the total 80 million in upper funding with a remaining allocated balance of about 4.5 million. That 4.5 million that has been approved to prime board items will primarily be obligated through amendments to existing contracts and memorandums of agreement. So that pretty much places the county in a good standing or well-postured to end the calendar year with minimum to no available funds before December 31, 2024 deadline to obligate opera funds. The remaining after department staff has performed outreach to other departments and offices. The remaining 911,000 that is unallocated, that is recommended, is for allocation to the eviction assistance program, based on observation of increased eviction filings, supported, and currently more filings in queue. So, with that being said, not the pleasure of the committee, we are ready to answer any questions. Questions, the Piony and Springs one, was that a water project? I remember the gentleman was here and I think we were concerned about timeline. Is that sort of what happened? Correct. Okay. And they had a piece of that as well that they were funding or no or they would have to have if we hadn't funded it. I'm trying to remember. That's what it was. Okay. Yes, that's correct. Okay, so what's happening with it now? They didn't get, they couldn't get the ARPA money allocated in time, basically. That's correct. They have allocated the bulk of the funds. Oh, okay. Yes. So it's just that there was too much. Correct. There was too much to be able to obligate by the timeline. But yes, the majority of the funds were obligated. Okay. All right, any other questions? I can ask it in the motion. Okay, do you have a question? I did it and the recommendation for the funds then as I recall is that it goes into the eviction assistance. That was correct. Okay, fantastic, thank you. All right, I'll go ahead and move the finance government operations act on the development assistance. That was correct. Okay, fantastic. Thank you. All right, I'll go ahead and move the finance government operation. Second, I'm with the development committee. Recommend the board approve the recommended use of art for funding for 911,000 is outlined in this action item and authorized the purchasing agent to increase the award authority of the contract for program three housing preservation for households with eviction filings to loud and cares, ink in the amount of 99,000 for a new contract amount of $1,911,000. Seconded by Chair Randall, discussion on the motion. I have no opening. Chair Randall. So thank you, Mr. Chairman. This may not even be such a finance discussion as it might be for Mr. Himstreet and Mr. Claul. And so I have been following this program very carefully. And let me first say that I think loud and cares is a fantastic nonprofit that's doing the best they can. But there have been a lot of hiccups and helping them get the money to where it needed things like on the site. There was nothing in another language on the site to where we needed things like on the site there was nothing there was nothing in another language on the site to give them information about it nothing which was a problem when you know I went with the former director of loud and cares we literally carried in our own computers and own printers and we were there from about five and eight minutes well midnight trying to get these things done trying to get some of the information in you know we were we were using other people who were also who had also come for relief as interpreters because there was no other interpreters that had been sent from the from our organization, our loud and cares. Is there some other assistance we can give to loud and cares as they're assisting these clients? Because I do believe that there were people who didn't get their winter relief on time. There was one woman who would actually was so desperate she had gone to a kind of a save resource to be honest to get money for her rent. Then of course that money can't be paid back to the save resource. Now she's like, what do I do? I got to pay this man my money, but since her rent was paid, she no longer qualified for the money, but it was paid because she went to a source she don't normally want to go to. And that was just caused because of the delays. And so, you know, I understand that we put the RFP out and really only one entity responded. I get that so we didn't have other options. And that's fine because I think loud and cares did their best. But it was still, this is is still it was a heavy lift and is it possible or how can we or should we help the nonprofit help the clients and so that these things don't happen So we can fix some of these issues So there's a couple of things that we've been doing both on the Department of Finance and procurement and also in the in Department Housing and Community Development. First off is we've been collaborating, communicating with Loud and Cares as far as their resource needs. So we do know that they are going to be working to bring on board about two to three or three to four additional staff. Next, we are working with loud and cares to establish an action plan. We do know that there's a volume of applicants whether it's Ren2 or eviction or other programs that we need to at least make contact to in order to make a quality examination of whether they correct, they meet the criteria for the assistance So we are requiring that this month as well and then from there We're just we're also looking at you know their business processes as well. Okay. Thank you very much I think that sounds like it could be helpful and and also put something in other languages on the information side. Thanks. All right. Other discussion on the motion, Mr. Stance. Thank you. You just want to kind of follow up the chair. Chorano's point now just being more direct. If we move forward with the motion, do we feel that Loudoun Cairns is able to manage the increase that will come with this. Can you speak a little bit more to that? So we believe based off of the actions that I just identified to Chair Randall that that will mitigate or reduce the risk at least in in the short term, and then we'll continue to work with loud and cares in the long term as far as to program efficiencies. And then without going into a lot of detail, the type of review that we're conducting or working with loud and cares looks at their program performance from both right policies and procedures, governance, and then also processing. Okay. And not to say they are not doing a good job, but say after your review, if it comes up that, you know, there are marks at real performance is not up to certain standards, what would we do? So next step is, is then we'll go through through the contract which we've already started that process to review. And we'll work with our procurement team as far as what's the next steps and of course with that contract. Okay. All right. Because obviously we want to make sure everybody is getting everything that they can qualified for in an expedited process. So, right, thank you. Sorry, I do have a question. Yeah, that's you haven't spoken yet. We're in a motion, but you haven't spoken. Go ahead. That's right. So, don't, did we not have time to ask if there were other nonprofits in the county that could do eviction assistance? Because don't, isn't there another organization that we provide funds to that help with eviction assistance? So we currently, excuse me, we currently have a contract with Shelter House to help divert homelessness. So we do have that in conjunction with the eviction assistance program and Loudoun Cares is partnering with the Northern Virginia Family Service and Legal Services of Northern Virginia. So there's a collaborative effort. They are making referrals and managing cases collaboratively. Okay. We, we, sure. All right, then. So there was an entire RFP process. It was an entire process. So I know that, but not for this leftover money in this item, there was not a separate RFP process. That's correct. To do that, to do all that again with delay this. I know, I know, that's my point. That's why I'm asking because we need to allocate and spend the funds within a certain amount of time, we may not have had time to assess other possibilities for the money that's being, you know, for the money that wasn't used that we're forwarding. As I understand it, my concern is that many people in the community feel like loud and cares has failed to process a good number of applications in the other program for rental assistance. So it does make me very nervous to also have them doing our eviction avoidance programs. But I do understand that you guys are working with them. So, and there's a process that if it's not working that we will go through. If I can address supervisor Bristman's question, the amount of money that is requested to be reallocated exceeds our simplified acquisition process. So in base upon the fact that we have to have the funds obligated before into the calendar year, it wouldn't allow enough time to go through and complete other RFP process. Okay, that that that was that's what I was thinking. Okay, thank you. Supervisor Amsterdam. I'll support this but if no one had responded, if Loudoun cares hadn't responded to the RFP, what would we have done? So my assumption would have been that we would have looked at other avenues in order to make recommendations to the board to allocate those funds. I believe the initial amount was $1.5 million. Okay. All right. So we would have looked at something other than eviction prevention. Correct. All right. Okay. Thank you. Okay. I have no closing. I'll have a favor to motion. Say aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Motion carries. 5-0. Thank you very much. Okay. Next up is the 2025 retiree health plant update and premium review, which may be a more difficult item than the tax item that we had. I know there were some staff briefings. I will kind of say at the onset that this is coming to us pretty late in the process for us. And so the timeline for decision is virtually not existent. We pretty much have to act. So I know that there have been some concerns expressed, which I think we probably do want to dive into, but I don't know that we can do that and delay this. We may have to kind of be proceeding on separate tracks, but I will turn it over to staff to give us a presentation. Great. Good evening, committee members. Thank you for having us here. As you know, I've had an opportunity to speak with a number of you, or your staff, regarding this item, it is a bit complex in terms of how our plans are structured and what our recommendations are. So I have a presentation that's somewhat similar to what some of you have already seen. So some of these slides will look a bit familiar. So prior to 2013, the County's Retire Rehealth Plan was open to retirees with 10 years of service and have been enrolled in the active employee plan for three of the past five years prior to retirement including the preceding 12 months The county's health plan was split into two classifications or of retirees pre-65 retirees and post 65 retirees Pre-65 retirees could enroll in the same plans as active employees and post-65 retirees had their own plan which included a prescription drug benefit and dental coverage. And the amount of retiree would pay varied based upon the number of years of service within the county. So back in 2012, like most organizations who offered retiree health like the county, understood that the designing costs were not likely going to be sustainable due to medical trend. And then additionally back in 2004, there were a number of financial standards that were released that came into play which required organizations such as the county who offered retiree health to start booking their future liabilities rather than just going from year to year. As it means to make sure they understood what was going on with their retiree health to start booking their future liabilities rather than just going from year to year. As it means to make sure they understood what was going on with their retiree health plans, the status of those plans and how strong they were. So the county back in 2008 created an OPEB trust that is managed by a local finance committee. The OPEBs are the actual retiree health plans that we'll talk about in a little bit. Each year, our actuaries determine how much that we need to fund that trust to meet future liabilities with the idea that at some point that trust would grow to a point where we could use that to pay the actual retiree expenses. So for so long, we were just engaged in what we call a pay as you go financing. We pay the claims, we pay the admins every year. We then started funding a trust at the same time. So we would pay the trust to the tune of about five, maybe five, six million each year. And that would vary from year to year. But we also contributed money from the General Fund to pay for ongoing expenses. So back in 2012 2012 the county partnered with Boomershine Consulting to review the retiree health plan and to try and figure out a way that we could retain some sort of retiree benefit for our employees but also remain fiscally responsible. And we came up with a number of objectives within that I think was an October 12th board reading in 2012. You'll see on the screen provided competitive and affordable retiree health benefits program while maintaining the county's financial responsibility. Minimized to the extent possible, the impact of changes on current retirees and those closest to retirement that's a key piece. And then slowly transitioning the retiree health plan from a defined benefit model to a defined contribution model. Defined benefit meaning you're receiving that actual health care is kind of almost like a promise. But with the defined contribution, it's more of a, it's a benefit you're going to provide. It's more easily manageable. You can, and you can budget for that, but it's not necessarily a full blown commitment. So to achieve these objectives, the board approved the creation of four distinct groups with different eligibility criteria. Groups A and B would receive actual retiree health care. Those are our OPEB plans, and that's why we're here tonight to discuss them. And then Group C and D would receive an annual, a lot of amount to be deposited into a retirement health savings plan where funds would grow through a number of financial vehicles and at some point you can then catch that out to pay for your out of pocket expenses. In addition to creating those groups, back 2012, the board approved a few different cost mitigation measures to help almost act as a safety net for the county. And there were two. One was an annual contribution cap that was set at 5% of the county's premium contribution at that time in 2013. So that's 5%. So for example, if the county contribution was, say, $100 each year we could increase by 1 by 5%. If it increased to, you know, 105, we would, as the county take on that 5% increase as would the retiree. However, if it increased by more than 5%, say 7%, the retiree would pick up their 7%, but the county would only pick up 5% and that remaining two would be shifted to the retiree. That was an annual contribution cap. We also had a total contribution cap that at 150% of the total contribution in 2013. So remember, everything's being anchored into 2013 rates. So for instance, in year one, it could go up to 105, 110, 115. Ultimately, over a number of years, once that total contribution is over 150% of the 2013 contribution, that excess then gets shifted to the retiree. So, our plan has been running fairly well these past number of years, past 11 years, actually, however, the 2025 renewal has triggered that limit with regards to the 5%. And so we kind of knew that at some point these OPED plans would need to be re-evaluated. Not quite sure what we would do, thinking maybe we just need to modernize our rates. Reanchor them, reset them from 2013, maybe to 2025. And see what would that do, would that help the county, would that help the retirees. And so we're here about 11 years later having that conversation. Just to clarify one thing, are you saying that in the previous 11 years we have not triggered the five? It's the annual increase has been under 5%. That's correct. Actual increase. That's correct. So none of that's been passed on at the retiree because it's been under that 5%. Correct. This is the first year. This is the first year, it's tricky. Okay. Thank you. So with regards to Group B, Group B is structured a little bit differently in that retirees receive a flat subsidy based upon their years of service. So they based upon whatever formula we have in place, if they were to receive a $400 subsidy. That $400 was a subsidy in 2013, $414, $415. So you can imagine that over each year as healthcare premiums increase the value of that subsidy starts to decrease. And now we're 11 years later and we feel as though it's time to reassess and make sure that this is still sustainable for our retirees as well as the county. So let's take a shift away from the actual design and look at the renewal itself. So the 2025 renewal for pre-65 retirees is coming in at 10.2%. The post 65 Medicare eligible retiree renewal is coming in at 31.1%. So you can imagine obviously this is now triggering that annual cap of 5%. Anything over and excess of that 5% is then shifted to the retirees. You'll see in the item, I believe I have a chart that shows if we don't take any action, such as resetting those rates to 2025, our retirees will see upwards around a 175% increase in their monthly premiums. So in order to address this, we evaluated the impact of making a couple different changes in what that would do to the OPEB trust as well as for group A, as well as for group B2. In group A, we are looking at re-miss entry, re-anchoring or resetting those foundation rates to 2025. We still want to maintain a 5% increase cap in a 100% increase cap prospectively beginning in 2026. That's for group A for group B we are looking to increase the subsidies by 50%. And these two changes have essentially a profound impact on the OPEB trust in a variety of different ways, three different ways mainly. One, actually early, if we make those changes, the OPEB trust liabilities will increase by approximately $50 million. And that impacts the OPEB trust funding ratio. And the funding ratio is essentially, it just measures the liabilities versus the assets. We have a $70 million fund in the United States. We have a $70 million fund in the United States. We have a $70 million fund in the United States. We have a $70 million fund in the United States. We have a $70 million fund in the United States. We have a $70 million fund in the United States. We have a $70 million fund in the United States. earlier that trust can then pay for retiree expenses. Back in fiscal year 2021, we developed a OPEB trust disbursement policy because our funding had gotten so positive. Because we've been very diligent about funding that trust. So I think we were upwards in the 80s where we decided we were going to go ahead and start pulling money from the trust to pay all of our ongoing retiree expenses. Now we still continue to fund the trust because we had to do that but we were no longer doing this pay as you go. We simply pulled money from the trust to pay for all of our expenses. The challenge with making these changes is that when we increase those liabilities by $50 million, you can imagine that funding ratio just drops dramatically. We don't have the exact amount, but we're thinking it's about around 58%. And when that happens, our disbursement policy prohibits us from using that trust to pay for expenses. So now, we not only have to fund the trust continually as we have been, but now we have to go back into that pay as you go financing for retiree expenses. And that's about $9 million per year. So it's $9 million we need to come up with to start paying for retiree expenses until we get to the point where we get back up to that 70% funding ratio. Aside from the liabilities that are impacted by this change, the annual required contribution or the ARC or the ADEC, or ADEC, whatever we might want to call it from the actual term, what we have to fund to the trust increases as well. So today we are funding at about $4 million per year. That's going to increase to $7.8 million. So that's another $3.8 million that we have to fund the trust. Now keep in mind when I just mentioned that $50 million liability increase, that's not cash that we have to shut out. That's just a liability that we have to book. But this piece, this $3.8 million, that is actual money that we need to come up with to fund that trust. So now we have our $9 million as you pay as you go for the retiree expenses, as well as additional $3.8 million to pay into the trust moving forward each year thereafter until we get to our 70%. And then the last impact, there is a provision within our disbursement policy that states once the funding ratio goes beneath 70% The county has five years to get that back up to 70 We don't have those exact numbers yet. We will by the time the county audit is done But we're thinking it could be around 20 million dollars So we're going to have to figure out what the best route is to get that back up to 70% Within five years. So to kind of recap one of our recommendations, we want to re-anchor those group A caps to 20, 25 rates, move it from 2013 to 2025. We want to increase group B subsidies by 50%. We want to set the pre-65 retire rate to a 10.2% increase, which by the way is the same as we applied to the actives last month. And then set the post-65 renewal at 31.1% increase. Now that is significant. That is still our recommendation from an HR perspective. You'll remember in the past, we have artificially, we've asked the board for additional funds to artificially buy down those rates for the retirees. We knew back then, as we know now, that comes back to bite you every year, because you're already starting behind the starting line. So really, we started at a 10% increase before we even looked at the numbers. So the 10% went up to 31.1. The reason we're not recommending is that we buy down the rates and that we're just kicking the bucket down the road. But if the board want to, they can find funding of about $770,000 to buy down those rates, artificially buy down those rates down to the 10.2 so that everyone is in alignment, your active, your pre-65ers and your post-65ers at 10.2%. And obviously, if we do that, we'll have the same conversation next year. So just to recap, financially, we have an increase in 3.8 million of additional funds needed to fund the OPEB trust. We have another 9 million needed to pay as you go financing until we get our funding ratio up to 70%. So there you're 12.8 million. And then we have maybe 20 to 25 million possibly that of additional funding that we need to get back up to the 70%. We put some language in the item that regarding that 20 to 25 we may want to have a conversation around fund balance if that's a possible issue whether it be at one time or whether it be over five years. So we will be looking for some options there. The remaining of FY 25, the impacts of plan changes would be absorbed, and then for FY 26, we would move forward. It would be proposed in the future fiscal year budgets. So that's, like I said, that was a kind of a summary of what I shared with some of you and some of your staff over the past few days. So we're here to answer any questions that you might have. Wow, that's simple. I'll open it up to questions, but just so the, what's being proposed has a budgetary impact of 20 to 25 million essentially immediately Which it's recommended that we address through FY 24 fund balance I don't know if it finances here. I'm not sure if I can we speak to that Megan's coming whether she could speak I don't know but she's coming. So the annual effect of these changes would be 12.8 million. In addition to over the period of five years, you need to rebuild back the fiduciary net position, which wouldn't be an additional 20 to $25 million. You can either choose to do that incrementally over a five year period or all at once with fund balance. So 12.8 million is, but do we have to come up with that the 12.8 can be absorbed within the FY 25 Budget with personnel savings and then the annual cost would just be included in the proposed budget going forward the 12.8 and then We can either take all of the 20 to 25 and do it once in 24 fund balance if we have it or we can spread that out over a period of time. Correct. Correct. Okay, I'm sure there's going to be more questions. I may have some more of myself, but let's go to Sir Reservusman. Okay. Okay, so could you go back to point number two of fiscal impact, the slide that had fiscal impact number two please? Okay, so this says we need to necessitates an increase of 3.8 million to the original annual contributions to the OPEB trust. When we spoke today, I thought that was operational, not to bring the trust back up to its funding amount. No, the $3.8 million is not operational. That's just what we need. That's a required amount that we have to provide to the trust. It was the $9 million that was operational, but that's used to pay for the claims and admin expenses every week as they come in That so is the 3.8 million annually going to help us get back to our 70% ratio or not? It should yes it will but not not at the rate that we would need that to be Okay it will. But not at the rate that we would need that to be. Okay. But we still, in addition to the 3.8 million going in annually, will we still need the 20 to 25 million? Correct. Okay, so it's in addition to. Okay, sorry. Yes. Thank you. Ms. McLean, did you want to jump in? I think we may have just cleared it up but I'd like to have staff speak again on the 3.8, which I believe does not increase the funds net position. It only addresses your recommendation for group B, correct? It actually addresses both for group A and group B so. Okay. Does we can't hear up here? I don't know what's going on. Everybody has other microphone closer or something. Yeah. We had to turn them down because we were having some feedback issues. Oh, so Mr. Kraus the 3.8 million is the A&L required, which would maintain the fund position. So to get back to the 70%, we'd have to increase that amount above the 3.8 million. I think it's a clarification that we're trying to- Yeah, I think we actually have David Boomershine here. He might be able to opine on that particular question. Sorry, say that again. We have David Boomerstein here the actuary and he can probably opine on that I think Mr. Hemstreet is correct, but I just want to you know make sure Well, and now we know the namesake of the company Thank you for having me so my understanding is that the question is, is whether you, the 3.8 million additional contribution does help with the funding ratio. It does a little bit because we have a 15 year amortization period that's used for the annual cost, which is pretty aggressive. That is very big, very much a part of it. The additional 2024 million would do it immediately or again as you pointed out could be spread out over the over five years. So there's pieces from both of it. Does that answer your question, sir? As a resident? I don't know. I guess my point is I think I would rather put into it gradually over the five years in order to get to the 70% rather than using fund balance. But I think that's going to be another item from OMB. Well, I think we kind of have to do both, right? Is what you're saying? We have to do the 3.8 million. Yeah. So the fund, we can have the 20 to 25 discussion in fund balance, I assume. Okay. No, I'm'm sorry I'm not finished. Oh yeah go ahead. Okay were you good were you no okay thanks. I'm not I'm not sure I'm comfortable given the I'm not sure I'm comfortable moving this item forward tonight based on all the questions we've gotten from our Firefighters Union It sounds like it's not satisfactory what we're doing for group B And I think group B is the one that has consistently been Behind if I recall what the firefighters have told me before has consistently been behind in adequate benefits been behind in adequate benefits. There's also an issue apparently with groups C&D that they feel should be addressed at the same time, and there seems to be a misunderstanding between when that was supposed to be negotiated. So I think you saw the email from the firefighters. Could you address any of those concerns for us? Good evening, Supervisor Brisbane. I think in order to address those concerns, I would point out two things. Number one, this is the same item that we bring every year in order to establish rates for the retirees. We are in a time crunch. This has been a very complicated item. We would have preferred to have gotten into you in September, but there are a lot of moving pieces here. If we do not address this item this evening and get an approval from the board to do something for F per Plania 2025, we will not be able to program those rates into the system to notify our retirees and to do what we need to do in order to go through our open enrollment period and get the information out to our retirees. I think we would be in a position of needing if we're not going to move forward with this, needing the committee and or the board to tell us what they want us to move forward with, so we can go ahead and make those plan changes. With regard to IAFF, IAFF has a negotiated collective bargaining agreement with the county, that collective bargaining agreement does expressly state that if they do not agree with these recommendations, they can reopen negotiations. They have the ability to do that. The county also has the ability to do that. I think that would be the appropriate forum to address their concerns. And if there are other recommendations that they would want to make, we would consider that through the negotiation process. Are they allowed to reopen negotiations on just one item or does that put everything on the table again? Just that one item on the retiree health specifically they would be able to reopen negotiations. Okay. We also have the recommendations that IAFF made during those contract negotiations those were priced out by Boomer Shine if the board wants us to. We can always come back with an information item to explain what was the work that was done on Boomer Shine and the costing for those. And we can provide that information to the committee and to the board if it desires. Okay. There also seems to be some concern that there were recommendations from Boomer Shine that were not part of the recommendations from staff. It's not Boomer Shines place per se to make recommendations on how to change our plan structures. Their job is to determine and calculate financial risk and liability for the county. We gave them the recommendations that IAFF requested and asked them to price them They make no recommendations as to whether those recommendations were good or not good or desirable for the county They simply price them. Okay. All right. Thank you Jared thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do feel my staff take it a briefing on this on Friday. This is a lot. And I understand we have to do something tonight, but I will be honest. I don't feel ready to do something tonight, because I don't feel like I have more questions. I have a lot more questions. And I would prefer time to just dive into this myself or sit. So this feels rushed for me. Having said that, Ms. Green with due respect, are we absolutely positive that if you open up one part, you can only open up, you can't open up one part of a negotiation and not open it all up, because I've never heard that before. I am absolutely positive. That being said, I'm not the county attorney, so I don't want to provide legal advice, but based on my previous experiences of labor relations manager, it would be opening up that particular article, and that would be it. It would not be the entire agreement. Okay. All right. I think I'd like to see that in writing just to make sure, we know that's, that's, I'm not saying you're not correct, but just to, you know, double make sure that that should be in writing somewhere. It's said that the, that group B, even if I'm opposed 50% increase, there's a proposed 50% increase cap that 30 years of service. Can you put that in numbers? What is that number for Group B? Is that about $16,000? Microphone, microphone. By that. It really depends upon, because there's a couple different amounts per year of service. So we'd have to do each calculation depending upon. That's why we don't have a rate sheet for group B because everyone has a different rate. Do you believe that group B's rates would fall under or below the other groups of rates? The amounts? It might depend that there could be a fact pattern here there where that could be true. It's very difficult to craft these four plans to be separate and unique and distinct of each other. Sometimes you will have a little bit of overlap. I'm not worried about overlap. I'm worried about one group being significantly less than the others. I'm worried about that. I do remember, and if my memory serves me, I think there's Mr. Luterno that asked a question last time about retirement age as it relates to first responders. Do you remember that discussion? Am I remembering Rome? Yes, when we address groups, see. And what's the answer just know? Because the reason I think it came up is because usually first responders have a shorter work life for obvious reasons. And so we had a discussion about whether their retirement age should be calculated at age 50 instead of 55 or 60. Did that, that didn't happen, is that correct? Back in late 20. No, I mean, for this, right now, that is not happening. That's correct. I do believe that the me stop saying it that way. It is it is absolutely factually correct. The first respond to staff have a shorter work life and so That not being calculated in is something that I'm concerned about. And then I think I missed, missed, missed, green. I think you actually said that we purposely don't build in coalists. Is that correct? Can you talk about that a little bit and why? That is correct. And the way that the board has directed that these plans be designed is with the intention to control the county's cost liability So if you build in a factor where that liability is going to be increasing year over year over Col- with a cola that kind of undermines what the intention was of how the board set these plans up back in 2013. Can it be done yes, but that would not have been a recommendation by staff based off of staff's understanding of what the intent was of the board at that time. So at that time it just wasn't done. It was not done. Okay. The intention was to set caps, hard caps. If this was to go back to bargaining, am I correct that I read that that have to be agreed to by December of this year? In order to affect plan rates for the middle of next year, because our plan year is on a different calendar than the fiscal calendar. It's on the calendar year. So it starts on January 1. So what if it was actually just difficult for any group to pull together in bargaining team because I mean unlike the county staff, you know if a group has to pull together bargaining team only one of those people that this is their job kind of part of their full time everybody else they have to go back to figuring out hours and all that type of stuff. What if that couldn't happen by the end of the summer, end of this year. Again, I would want to seek advice from the county attorney on this, but it would be my belief that what we would do is roll over whatever the board approved for all retirees as of January 1, including anyone who's in the IAFF bargaining unit until such time as a different agreement was negotiated with IAFF. So whatever the board approved would apply to any retirees that were in that bargaining unit until we reached a different agreement. Okay, I understand that. And then if you started to do bargaining again, is there a deadline by which the bargaining needs to be completed? In order to impact the rates for the middle of next year, starting July 1, that would be December 1 of this year. To start. To complete. To complete negotiations. Oh, I thought was to wait, what? I thought was December 1 this year to begin negotiations. No. December 1 of this year to reach a tentative agreement for any fiscal proposal that would impact your FY26 budget. Mr. M Street, is that realistic? To you open a negotiation concluded by December 1st on this issue? Yes. No. Okay. All right. Yeah, it's not. Tell me again, Mr. Green. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. which means that the first part of that plan year, whatever went into effect is what the board would approve. If something, if it could not, knowing that that's not possible, is there some way that if the bargaining and then the decision start later, can there be some kind of pro-rated amount that is returned to people? Something else that can be done, because which is, which is state, and I understand, the reason is state, I understand, the calendar and I, it's very late in the year, but you're offering something that's literally not possible. So knowing that that is not possible, if we go back, we start bargaining again and it's concluded, I don't know, April of next year. What can happen fiscally to mitigate that issue, the fact that they would have missed that deadline? I think there's a provision under the ordinance that does allow us to extend that December one timeframe. I would have to defer to the County Administrator and OMB on how far out we would be able to push that timeframe in order to plan for budgeting whatever we reach to. But again, you're talking about extending the time frame to have it completed. Correct. Yeah, and I'm saying, I mean, you know, if it is not completed until May of next year, is there some kind of per rated return of revenue or cost or money that can be returned to, if something else is agreed on. I'm not sure I understand the question. Because I'm not asking it well, so. I understand you don't understand the question, I'm not asking well. If this does not finish until April of May of next year, based on what happened in the bargaining. Could there be some type of reimbursement that is given back to them after that? Is that the retirees who paid the increased rate? That would be highly unusual. I would believe that the board would be able to approve that. If they so chose to do so, I would recommend that that would be negotiated. If that's what we were going to do. All of it would be negotiated. Correct. Within whatever settlement authority that the board gave us. But again, that would be a very highly unusual thing to do. And I would imagine, I mean, I would imagine, even if there's an extended timeline, that extended timeline couldn't be that far out. I mean, two more weeks maybe, I mean, it just couldn't be that far out. I think that it depends on whether IAFF would desire to negotiate retiree health as a package. I think group A and group B are very different from group C and group D. If their very different from group C and group D. If their concerns were primarily group C and group D, we might be able to reach some sort of an agreement. I do not believe their concerns are primarily group C and group D. In that case, then, it would have to be negotiated. And it would take some time in order to get to a final agreement. Well, I don't know. I mean, we can let others ask questions. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It may become. Thank you. Yes. I apologize. I'm not going to cut you out. But for you, need more time. I'm just saying, why don't we? OK. Supervisor, I'm stuck. Thank you. I really appreciate you, and you're getting back to us with your analysis of the concerns for my AFF, and you did that pretty quickly. I am getting the feeling that staff is very, very concerned about us not taking a vote tonight. Am I correct in assuming that if we don't move this along, imperfect as it might be from the perspective of some members of the board, if we don't move this along, staff feels that we're gonna have a bit of a chaotic situation with our coverage. Yes. I would not know how to establish plan rates for my retirees for FY 2025. And if we leave its status quo as the rates are established right now, the retirees who are my primary concern in this item will see a massive and substantial increase. And that's what we're really trying to get ahead of in this moment. That's good enough for me. Thank you. Mr. Saints. Oh, thank you. Just had a curiosity. When did the reporter or the analysis come back to staff from the consultant? I'm not sure. We had gone through multiple iterations trying to get to make sure that we had a clear understanding. I believe thinking it was sometime in June or July, I believe. June or July was that the first iteration and then was the final and the no, no towards the end towards the end towards the end. Yeah, so it was the first iteration. No, no, the final iteration. I know what you said you had several back and forth. It was the first one. I I thought my head I'm not sure. When was the first time that we received the consultant to report back and then when was the ending after back and forth when was the final? I can tell you the final I believe was either June or July, David I'm not sure when the first one. The first one was in May. In May, okay. It was May and then there was some in June and then there was some in July. Okay. Of this year. All right. All right. Well, thank you. Okay. So, I do think we needed this item last month. It would have helped. Not gonna be up. I think we all could acknowledge that would have been much better for us because now we are in a situation here. I read the IFF memo. I try to read your response, but I was driving here. When you said that, I appreciate it was a quick turnaround. I think we're kind of stuck in a position. We do need to take a step back. So the plan is it was designed, and I was the only member of the board at the time. First of all, for context, I don't believe we would be funding any retiree health if we hadn't done what we did at that time, because we would have been just completely blown out. And a lot of organizations were, to withdraw some counties into bankruptcy, Metro actually canceled retiree health completely, believe it or not. So it became a just a huge issue that we had to get under control. I do think one potential culprit for this was the 10-year look back that we put at it, going forward, I think we should do it much more frequently, like three or five. Ten years probably too much. So that was a mistake that was probably made at that time. But that's number one for context. Number two for context is status quo is much, much worse for retirees. So we can't, in that sense, let the perfect be the enemy a good here. We have to move forward something. If I'm trying to sort of drill down to what the issues are, it's essentially how much of a subsidy should be, particularly on Group B. And I don't know that I can answer that question tonight. I did raise Chair Randall, yes, a question of a separate for Group C, a separate public safety group because of the age of the retiree. That's still something that we should probably consider. The Group B discussion, I think, is a little more complicated. And you all know my feelings on collective bargaining. Look, you live by the sword to die by the sword. This was a collective bargaining issue. It is a collective bargaining issue. It probably is something because of the financial act that would have to be collectively bargained. That isn't to say that we shouldn't try to understand it better. And if we have more time, I'm not convinced that we maybe could have maybe found a way forward here ourselves. But I don't know how we can do that right now. So, on the spot. So I think that kind of leaves us in this position. I've probably having to move this forward. I am open to any and all the discussions with IAFF and others about how to fix this from their point of view. It's gonna require money from us, you know, we obviously. It kind of, I was thinking about it earlier tonight when we were talking about the revenue discussion on the personal property tax issue because this is a pretty significant expenditure now that was essentially unplanned when we began that discussion. But we have to take care of our retirees. It's the bottom line. So I'm fully committed to that. So I think what I'm probably going to do, absent a better alternative is to make the motion in the packet. And then if we want to do an information item on costing out the various IFF proposals as they came back then, we can do that. If we want to have some subsequent discussion about potential plan modification changes, that can go into effect at a later date, we can certainly do that too. And continue the dialogue. I do think it will be helpful for IFF and the county staff to sit down, maybe even informally, if that's possible, to talk this through a little bit and try to really crystallize kind of where we're at. And then see if the board can be helpful, not in a formal collective bargaining, so that we can be kind of involved. And then if it gets to a formal collective bargaining obviously then that's a process that's laid out. So I think that's probably what I'm going to do is make this motion and then we can sort of move forward from that. Okay. So I move the finance government operations economic development committee recommend the Board of Supervisors approve re-anchoring the annual cap and total contribution cap on increases to county contributions to retiree health care plan costs Plan year 2025 rates from plan year 2013 rates for retirees and group a Increased the county subsidies for retiree health care plan costs by 50% for retirees and group b and adopt a premium outline Attachment one for plan year 2025 January 125 to December 31st 2025 I further move the finance government operations that I'm a development committee recommend the Board of Supervisors the plan year 2025, January 125 to December 31, 2025. I further move the finance government operations that I would develop and committee recommend the Board of Supervisors authorize a purchasing agent and the Department of Human Resources to take the necessary actions to implement the recommended plan changes and propose premiums for retiree health plan. Seconded by Supervisor Obstet. So I think I said most of what I would say in the opening other than I think this is not the only discussion that we're going to have on this topic. We probably do need to continue the discussion, but just so we understand the clear timeline here. This is scheduled if it's coming out of committee to go to the board October 16th and then it has to be implemented for December 1. January 1. January 1. Correct. Notifying retirees. Correct. When though. We would typically do that in November. Okay. Is that the point? Typically in October. I'm sorry. Typically in October but we've put it back a little bit. Okay. So the open enrollment now actually is mid November through the end of the member. They've already been notified of when the open enrollment is, but not yet the rates. Okay. So this needs to be part of that conversation, and that's one of the reasons for the really difficult timeline here. Okay. All right. Other comments on the motion? Everybody's lights on. I'll just go this in relation to the chairs, I think very good comment about it would be beneficial for staff and IFF to sit down and go over this. I did note in your email that staff had offered that opportunity and you have not yet been taken up on that offer. That is correct. All right, so thank you for doing that and probably need to do it again. Hopefully they'll respond. I will, thank you. So you're right. So I want, you know, listen, I want to be real careful. I think this has all happened really very quickly. And Mr. the head of the union senate in email today. And I do think that there is already some dialogue and back and forth. And they are already responding in some ways. And I want to just make sure that's known. To Mr. Eternal's point, I don't know how fast, because I AFF, you know, again, they have to go put kind of pull the group back together. It's not like, you know, everyone's sitting in the building. They got to go figure that out again and find their attorney who's actually working on another issue right now and all those things. So it's not, they can't pull that trigger quite as easily. However, I would say that I do like the idea of trying to have some, I don't know if you want to call them informal conversation, but something out of a formal collective bargaining discussion. With that would do, I think people might be, you get some ground rules down with what to do next. It will help me understand what's going on a little bit more because once you go into a former collective bargaining discussion, now we are not having any discussions with anybody but staff, which is OK, but that's just how that works. And after they talk amongst themselves and pull it together, as fast as possible would be helpful. I think these are some very large discrepancies on the two sides and there's no way to get to it, but to come together and have these discussions. So as fast as that can happen in an informal way. And I would also say, if you do have to go into a collective bargaining discussion, then I would like to see it in writing that we're only opening it up for this part of the collective bargaining agreement and nothing else gets opened up. All right, thank you. Okay, Mr. Resor-Brispin. just echo what the chair just said, all of that. But I wanted to address something that you said, Chair Luterno, and that is, are we only looking at the OPEB every 10 years? And should we not maybe, would it be appropriate right now to have a friendly that says we look at it every five years or? So I don't want to make there's an op-ed committee of the county which I sit on that meets a couple times a year So we don't just only look at it however the rates themselves Were set on a 10 year look back, right? so When the board implemented the plan, they gave us direction that in 10 years, we were to review the rates and the caps and come back with recommendations. And that recommendation was very timely because it took us this amount of time in order to exceed the cap, but we could set that lower if the board desired it. We had this really wasn't an issue. Sorry, I'm in your time. But. Well, I'm willing to offer friendly that we have a five year look back or whatever you think is appropriate. You're on the OPE board. A five year look back, a seven year look back. I don't know how but the county minister has a opinion. I think five is. Okay, I'd add that friendly. Sure, I would accept that. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Mr. St. Thank you. I'll just follow along to my question earlier about when we received the report back and everything you said June was the final after going back and forth from May. And I'm not trying to be cute or pouring any fingers with this next question is, but what were we doing from June to now? And can we look back maybe try to bring this to us sooner next time. I think it's important to note that we also have an active employee. We were new that we work on in that same time frame and so we prioritized the work. This project also not only includes HR staff, budget is a part of it, finance and procurement. The county administrator had to be brief so there were a lot of moving pieces to this, to get to a point where we got to recommendations to bring before the board. I agreed that the timing was not ideal. My preference would have been last month, but I will say in defense of my staff and everyone at this table, we were working hard to get this recommendation to you. It's just a very complex project. Yeah, and like I said, I'm not trying to be cute or pointing fingers, but just trying to understand or maybe you can do assessment to see if we can next time bring it back, you know, like you said in September or or so. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so obviously that's true and we can go back at time. Maybe we should have started earlier and so on so far. That is what it is now, but it is a little frustrating. Board of Mr. Chairman, did the second or the motion just accept the friendly? Sorry, so Resurams did. Yes, she did. Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah, I do think a five year look back would maybe help a little bit too with the load of the amount of work that has to take place. Although, as you said, we didn't run into this cat problem until recently. And so I guess we probably wouldn't have made changes previous to this, but it came on us very quickly. I can remember sitting here when we were talking about dipping into the trust and thinking, OK, I guess we'll be fine, but we've seen what's happened in the world with medical rates. And we had a pretty difficult conversation up here about the active employee health plan as well, because that's a significant increase. And that's kind of unfortunately the world we're in. We were able to sort of address those folks at least through salary increases, but the retirees are a different story. So I think there's more to come on this. My hope is that I know that in good faith, the county and IAFF can talk through this a little bit and see if really crystallize exactly what the issues are. And then perhaps we need to bring the item back to the committee here for some board direction, get some more information about costs associated with proposals. And then if the decision is made to go back to collective bargaining, we can, you know, that can, that, that takes us out of it at some point. But let's see if we can kind of continue a dialogue for a little while here and get at that while we move forward on this and then potentially make, if we're going to make adjustments do so in the future. Okay. I'll unfair the motion say aye. Aye. I want to pose motion carries 5 0. Thank you very much. Okay. We're moving to item 18, the third compensation for 5.7b plan record keeper requests for proposal and investment selection. Same group. Yes. I don't have a presentation for this particular item so I'm more than happy to run through the item and some of the highlights of that or be here to answer any questions that you may have. Yeah, I was actually gonna propose this for consent honestly. Does anybody have any real questions or concerns on this? It's a, I mean, the reason we should take a minute here is it's a 10 year contract. So I don't know if you just wanna give us maybe a 60 second kind of overview just for the public's benefit of what we're talking about. Sure, sure. So, as you know, we are current to our comp plant is with Mission Square retirement. And they are both our record keeper and we have all of their funds with them proprietary funds. And so we had not looked under an RFP for either the investments or the record keeper in quite some time. We've been with Mission Square I believe since 2008. And prior to that we were with Nationwide. So we contracted with A on consulting and A on investment group. They're actually on the phone right now. Should any questions come up regarding investments. But we did a thorough review of the existing investment opportunities that we have, and the fees associated with that. And Aeon came back to us with a number of recommendations that we selected a whole new investment portfolio for employees, saving our employees per year, approximately $670,000 in investment fees per year. This is more of an open architecture model where we don't have to go with a record keeper and just through funds. So we selected our investments for through a variety of different methodology through Aeon, kind of a vetting methodology. And then the second phase of this project was an actual RFP for the record keeper itself. Who is going to manage those funds? Who are our employees going to talk to? Who are we going to work with as a plan sponsor? So we did that RFP. It was a very robust RFP, 265 pages, over 20 peg meetings. Typically, peg meetings are maybe two or three at the most. We had 20. Our Pag members spent over 70 hours looking over $4,400. $4,400. 4,400 points of data to come up with, to come up with, and to score these proposals. We had four proposals that came in, Mission Square being the incumbent was one of them. Voia and Power and Nationwide came in as well. And based upon the scoring and some evaluation criteria that was in this item, they scored Empower to win that award. And Empower is a major industry leader in this space. And the reason for the 10 year is because given what we're dealing with here, you want a longer road. Yeah, and it's a 10-year rate guarantee as well. So that's a pretty big deal. Obviously, if there are any problems, we don't have to stay with them for 10 years. It's simply, we were able to secure that through negotiations. Okay, so far, any other questions then? I'm gonna move to the finance government operations together with the Development Committee, recommend the Board of superbusters to prove a new deferred compensation for a five seven B plan. Record keeper contract with empower retirement LLC for 10 years and approve a new investment lineup for plan participants choose from as recommended. October 8, 2024 finance government operations and economic development committee action item. I further move the finance government operations and economic development committee recommend the board of superbusters authorize the purchasing agent and the department of human resources to take the necessary actions to implement this change to be effective April 1, 2025. Seconded by supervisor. I'm stead. I have no opening. So, this is just for the 457B. Everything else is staying with mission squared? No. So, just to be clear, this is separate apart from our VRS benefits. This is our local deferer comp plan. It's the 457B and you also have a map. If you contribute to that, you also have a county match, which is in a 401A. There's a couple different programs. Mission and square is actually going away and then power will be the new record keeper. Oh, mission square is going away totally. That's correct. Well, that's a bigger deal than I thought it was. But aren't all the, don't you have to change all of your investments then? Yes, that's what I was referring to A on. We did a robust investment review and have selected all new investments where employees, these are less expensive investments. It's an open architecture so we're able to pull from a much greater pool of investments for our employees. But will employees who are part of Mission Square have to go back and like reselect all of their funds they have? No, we will go ahead and put together a like to like mapping strategy for those employees. So dependent upon the asset class, if you have a certain type of asset class investment, they'll be mapped over to a similar like one. And will employees have to manage, You said they're saving management fees. Just the investment fees. The investment fees. The lower cost investments. Baron, clock. OK. OK. I guess I'm curious about what kind of a burden it's going to be on employees. Will they have to go like have a training and then have a call and- It's going to be no different than rolling out any other benefit. We'll make sure they understand what opportunities are going to be afforded them in terms of that mapping strategy. They don't have to engage that. They can essentially do their own if they like or they can map as most employers do when they make these changes. Okay. Sure. You good? Okay, two buzzer's saying. Thank you. I was just gonna clarify or point out that even to say if we were happily staying with the current firm from time to time, sometimes you and maybe you've noticed this or think about it now, from time to time, sometimes they will say, hey, you're on this investment portfolio, but this is changing, or we're getting rid of this investment, now we're adding this one, so you have to go here or make new allocations. So, you know, well, every now and again, it does happen in investments to change. So this is a fact within the past week, we were just notified by Mission Square, they are pulling one of their investments and swapping it out with another one that will happen within this transition period. So it does happen, it actually happens a lot more often than you think, you just have to pay attention to those emails, or those letters, those notifications that come into mail. So it's just more, for more part for the course, but Empire is a well-known, established outfit that does very well. So yeah, so it's not, not gonna say, not super big deal. I didn't even know we got this. So I, okay. Thank you, Mr. Sayance, the HR professional for that. I don't know. All right. Anyway, I'll have to say with the motion and say, I, I, anyone who pose? Motion carries, 5, anyway. I'll have to favor the motion and say aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Motion carries 5-0 All right Moving on to number 19 Requests for use of space and fee waiver within a loud and county community center by especially adapted Resource clubs or Spark. We are ready when you are. Good evening. Supervisors and committee members. With me tonight is assistant county administrator Vincent Jones and he's gonna open up with a few comments and then I've got an opening To kick off the item as well Sure, thank you, mr. Torpey Chair and committee so I just want to provide a brief bit of context before mr. Torpe gets Started bit of context before Mr. Torpy gets started. We wanted to just let you know that we are canally aware that there is some deliberate conversation taking place about services that we provide to members of our community who may be impacted by developmental disabilities or challenges. And we wanted to make sure that tonight that this item that you're considering is considered as an ancillary part of that discussion because we want to make sure that for this you consider it as a policy discussion about the fee waiver and what your comfort level is with that and with that I'll turn it over to Mr. Torpy. So thank you Mr. Jones. This item request has spelled out is about a use for the Sterling Community Center space by the nonprofit organization, especially adaptive resource clubs or Spark. This program offers continuing education, leisure and recreation activities, as well as life learning skills for young adults with disabilities. However, the large part of their program is to provide social engagement and opportunities for participants to be around their peers. I do want to note that this program is not licensed through the state of Virginia and is considered a social type program and they do not provide personal care assistance during this program. As I'm sure you are aware, we have a longstanding history of working with nonprofits and providing space at times free of charge, but this situation is unique and different from our normal operations and that this request is for an extended period of time and multiple hours at a time. As Mr. Jones mentions, we recognize the ongoing discussions surrounding programs for residents. And although Spark does provide a program that could help certain residents with disabilities and their families, really as was mentioned, this is about do we want to allow a pilot program like this at Sterling Community Center for up to a year. There are some concerns that are highlighted in the item such as there is seems to be some uncertainty over future grant funding and the ability to secure that to date as well as choosing one group over another. However, this group did come to the county. They are ready to provide that program and staff is willing to try this pilot program at the community center. There is no direct fiscal impact as the hours are going to be during or would be during the times that. There is no direct fiscal impact as the hours are going to be during or would be during the times that the center is already open, and the program does not request assistance from staff for this. The time being considered were chosen because historically at the at the center, this particular room has had very limited activity during the time frame that we have talked about during the days and hours that are any items. So with that chair of the turn, I will answer any questions that the committee may have. Thank you, Mr. Torpy. I imagine we do have some questions. Let's start on the sense. It's a resident risk man. Thank you. Do they already have clients then in Loudoun County? That would be coming. Yes, so one of the, in speaking with them, the reason why when they applied for the federal grant funding to open one location in Alexandria and one location in Loudoun was because the sites that they are currently operating in Fairfax do have Loudon County residents that are going and participating there. Oh, okay, okay, great. And has Spark applied for Loudon County grants yet? Have they been part of that process? Not that I'm aware of. Are non-profit grants, okay. Do you know if they're licensed? It's not licensed program through the state now. Okay. Are they certified somehow? That I do not know. I'll have to find that out for you. Okay. Well, because I feel like it's a certain amount of liability. If the county's letting them use the facility that we make sure that they are reputable. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I don't doubt that they are because I know the folks who who are involved but it is a little bit of an add in my opinion a little bit of an added risk for the county if we don't have that understanding. And are we, so the room has not been getting a lot of use during these hours, but it sure seems like great preschool hours. Have we ever thought about childcare preschool programs at the Sterling Community Center? Or do we already provide them? We are currently running them. Pre-school type programs. It's not a licensed program, obviously, but they do have a very strong program down there in a different wing of the community center. This is in this program of being the art room, which is on another side of the building. And is it not on Wednesdays? Because the preschoolers are using the art room on Wednesdays? No, it's because there's actually an art program that is happening and we did not want to displace that program. Yes, okay. And it seems to me that staff might be a little concerned about having a flood of requests for this. If we do this, I have a little bit of concern about that. Yeah, the amount that we would, is being anticipated that would be able to be accommodated in the room as up to 10 participants at any given time. I know there was a question earlier from Supervisor Sains about does it have to just be 10 or could there be a multiple things and that is what they do over in Fairfax and Arlington is you have the option of coming one, two, three, four or five days a week. So there could be the potential of multiple people participating in this program, just not on four days at the time. Okay, oh, I see what you're saying. Okay, it does look like in the item, it said this program is not licensed by the Commonwealth but is considered a social program Okay, it does look like an item. It said this program is not licensed by the Commonwealth, but is considered a social program with no personal assistance provided. So that helps. Thank you. Mr. Sains. Well, thank you. Yeah, to follow Mr. Torpey with Ms. Bricksman's question, I proposed instead of it being, so you're going four days a week, Monday, Tuesday and and Thursday Friday maybe have One block a group go on day Tuesday and then another block goes Thursday Friday so that possibly can open it up to more participants So mr. Tarpey If we currently have loud and resonance that go to the program in Fairfax And say if we do open this program and my understanding is only going to be for Loud and Resonance is that correct? Yes. Will those Loud and Resonance attend in Fairfax be asked to then sign up for this and leave their spots at Fairfax? Or will those Loud and Folks be able to still attend in Fairfax and we open it up to a brand new folks that are not participating with the SPAR program now. Yeah, my understanding is that you are able to sign up wherever there is space available in this program. One of the things that the executive director did share with me in one of the conversations that we had was that the reason why they were trying to open a location in Loudon was because of the requests for those folks that are participating in Fairfax to have a place closer to home. So do we know by how many Loudon folks are attending now in Fairfax? That I do not know. Because I know that kind of opens up, you know, safe people that are from loud and attending and fair facts that they just roll over, then all the spots are taken care of, and then we were not able to even add any new folks. So maybe we may fall, depending what happens tonight, if we can get some clarity on that. And then another, I don't know if we're going to begin, depending on what happens tonight, for my understanding, correct me for wrong, the funding will last, is it one calendar year, or is it just from when it starts? And then- So they had an amount and what she was anticipating was with the amount between what was given to start a program in Alexandria and one to start here in Loutin that she thought that it would be able to cover a full operating cost for a year. So hyperthetical from January to December? Correct. Okay. And then I'm assuming we've had that conversation, we'll possibly have the conversation again, depending on what happens tonight to say, hey, we are doing hypothetically from January to December, once your funding runs out, we can talk about next steps, but just know once it's done, then the program. I mean, in conversations about what I would be bringing forward for consideration, it was very clear that this was a pilot program and that if this went forward, the advertisement and marketing would have to very clear that this was a pilot program and that the if this went forward the advertisement and marketing would have to describe it as such so that there would not be a guarantee. Okay, and then will this affect any summer camp or summer programs that we have at the community center? Not at this time then that's one of the things that why we selected that is this was the one place that we did have a room that we felt for that period of time during the day we would be able to accommodate this. Okay. All right. And we don't need to have any county staff helping or anything of that nature. That's correct. Okay. And how many employees will they staff for? Did we get that detail? It depends on the number of people that they register. But usually what I have seen at the Fairfax County programs, it's typically three or four staff members that are at those sites. Okay. Last question. Do we know how they will advertise and what's their criteria to accept families into their program? I haven't seen the criteria for acceptance, but the advertisement, they do a lot of social media outreach. I know that they have already been in conversations with a lot of the other organizations in loud and that provide services for folks with disabilities. Okay, thank you. Chair Rennell. So let me help you out with some of these questions. One, when it says they don't have a license, it's because this is not a program that takes Medicaid waivers. So a Medicaid waiver program would have to have a license. They don't need to have a license because they're not a Medicaid waiver program. Just so you know how that is. Secondly, everyone would be coming from Loudoun County. And you know how these parents have been coming here with their kids saying that they need some assistance. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about those kids. These are loud in county, young people who need to have assistance. That's what they are. Secondly, or thirdly, to the question of how many employees do they have, every client has a person coming with them. So it is a one-to-one program. So there's other employees also, but every client that comes in has an person that comes with them. When it says they don't offer treatment, what they're talking about is, the spark doesn't do, it may not, because it's only four hours, they may not do any medical treatments or even feeding tubes, they do social and they feed them and that type of thing. They really do help them a lot with their ADLs, their activities of daily living, and they do quite a bit of social structure with them. These clients are what would be technically referred to as medically fragile, meaning they are so severe that they can't work, that they, most of them are bound in some way, that some of them sometimes are not verbal, they're not able to work outside the home at all. And to the question of, do they have to advertise the waiting lists for even non-medicate care for this population is down your arm? And the Medicaid waiver list will be opening up very soon and probably will clear out to a large degree. But for people who don't have a Medicaid waiver yet, they can use that. And we can't say to them, you know, these clients come in on this day, these clients come in on that day. That has to be a decision they make. That's what's the decision they make. That's, it may be a little client that is having a very tough day, is not able to settle down, cannot get grounded, whatever, and they're not going to bring them that day. But they will have a list of young people, our kids, or just people who can come at all times. If you've ever sat down with Jim Dyke or Ellen Dyke, and if you go to their site, every single question you ask is on their site. Most questions you ask, just ask ask is actually in the item, right? But every single question you will just ask is actually in the site. So my only question, Mr. Torpy, is during the summer when that room is used more, because it's not that much when school is in, Would it be, and I'm careful with this, because these are louder residents too. I mean, they have every right to use them like everybody else. So, but during the summer, is that room used more often or not? And then the other statement I would have, more of a statement than a question, sometimes the best way we can help these types of organizations, this is going to be very helpful if we decide to do this. Sometimes the best way we can help is to provide help with their grant writing services so that they actually have enough money to not have a fee, have to have a fee waiver, they have enough money to do something different. So that might be something we want to look at to invite them to come to some of our grant writing trainings so that they know what they're doing as well. So, but the summer program, temper question. Okay, so the summer question is I did have a conversation with the manager of that site and although we do run quite a bit of summer programs out of the Sterling Community Center, they did feel that they could program around the limited need of that room to maintain this through the summertime. So they did not think that that was going to be an issue. Okay, thank you. Okay, I do have some questions more related to policy. It's not about, the program is fantastic. Obviously, I want to try to make this work. more related to policy. It's not about, the program is fantastic. Obviously, I want to try to make this work. However, there does seem to be a discrepancy between our policy and perhaps what the policies are of the surrounding counties. We did receive a letter from Spark indicating that if we were to require essentially a fee waiver on their end. In perpetuity, they could not make the program work, that they have to receive a certain amount of essentially tuition. So we have a strict policy that says, I believe in our community centers, you can't charge for service and obtain a fee waiver on using our facility. They have these programs running in Arlington and in Fairfax County, clearly using county facilities and yet they obviously are charging tuition. So do you know anything about that? Is there a discrepancy there between our policy and other counties or is there something I'm not aware of? Fairfax County has the same type of policy. They have my understanding in talking with some folks over there was that there wasn't years ago, there was an exception made for them to be in those facilities. Okay. But they have a very similar rental policy for us that if you are running a program, if you're running a summer camp or running a clinic or something along those lines, you rent space in order to do that. You can still do it in charge for it, but you have to pay for the space. What would the cost of the space that we're foregoing amount to here? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not $1,000. Correct. $1,000. So yeah, let's get that number so we know exactly what we're waving. And then I guess my only concern would be, I want to do this and I want to make it work. But as a pilot, it's one thing. Then if it's successful in terms of participation and things like that, where do we go from there? Utilizing space, fee waiver, discussion, tuition on their side, all those kind of issues would have to be worked out. So that is a little bit complicated. It is and that's why we're here. Because that's one of those questions that would need to be discussed as a part of that analysis at the end of the pilot program is sterling community center truly the place to remain. Do we want to continue to wave those fees? Has the program been so successful that they could offset those fees? Yeah. Yeah. All right, Mr. Sains, do you want to make the motion since we're talking about the sterling community center? Sure, thank you. I move that the Finance Government Operations Economic Development Committee recommend that the Board of Supervisors direct staff to work with this especially adapted resource clubs about a known spark on a one-year pilot program for adults with disabilities to be held at the Sterling Community Center that this program be limited to the arts room from 10 a.m. To 2 p.m. on Monday to is a Thursday and Friday and that the Customary rental fees be waived for this one year pilot program period as long as participants are as long as participants are not charged a fee by spark. Which is made by Mr. St. Seconded by Chair Randall and you discussion on the motion. No, I'll just quickly say glad we can move this item forward and provide the service to much needed population, excuse me, in loud and counting. Thank you to Chair Randall for advocating and bringing this cause to the forefront, and I believe also, supervisor Glass I believe for her advocacy work and bringing this forward to us as well and to the staff for working with Spark and bringing this in front of us. So thank you to everybody who's involved and let's make this thing happen. Okay, Chair Randall. Yeah, Mr. Chair, I completely agree with what you're saying. And truthfully, you know, my, I don't have any doubt that we should do this because, you know, this is, this is, it may not be child care because they're not children, but they cannot care for themselves. So it is, it is care. Whatever we want to call it, it is, it is, it is person care. But I do wonder like, you know, when, when, when the pilot's over what happens, we have to do the fees and all that type of stuff, which is why I think since these clients are allowed in County to, again, I will take it about myself to tell Mr. Mrs. Dyke, the doctor, Dr. Dyke and Ellen Dyke to talk to our staff about looking into the grant process, not just them loud, but they've gotten pretty good about showing them how to do other grants too. And so maybe some of that couldn't, after this pilot programs up, we can figure out other ways to offset some of the fees. And I think it's a financially a valid question. So thank you. I do think Mr. Dyke probably has some pretty good resources available to him and his firm. So maybe that, yeah. Closing Mr. Stain. Closing, thank you, Mr. Mrs. Dyke and the Spark organization again and hopefully staff with this moving forward staff can work with them and maybe we'll look into finding a permanent home in the Loudoun County for this program at some point. So thank you. Okay, I'll unfair the motion. Say aye. Aye. Anyone opposed? Motion carries. 5-0. All right, we're getting there. We're getting there. We got I think what do we have four or five items left? We're into item 20, which is proposed County White Bicycle and pedestrian wayfinding program. Let's definitely do this one. Are we going to need a break after that? Are you just want to keep going? I'll check in after that. OK. I'll just say aye. Snow. All right. All right. I will say this was one of these initiatives that have been around so long that I kind of forgot about it. It was, I don't remember when I was initiated, but it was a long time ago. 2017. Good evening. Good evening. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. We're here tonight to present the proposed bicycle and pedestrian wave finding program. Which has already been presented to T-Lock last month. We're presenting as the finance committee tonight. And then we'll be at the full board here in the near future. Just with me today, we have Scott Wars, our deputy director, Aloisa Thuring, our traffic engineering program manager, Laura Gosh, senior traffic engineer and project manager for this initiative. And our consultant team from VHB, Kevin Keely, and Michelle Kavucci. And I will turn it over to Aloisa to walk through the presentation. Thank you. Good evening, Chair, let her know. Members of the committee, good evening. The slide deck that we'll be shown today or tonight is the same that was presented to T-Lock last month, September 2024. With additional slide reflecting the committee's recommendations and summarizing the planning level cost estimate for the next steps to the, excuse me, to the development of the countywide bicycle and pedestrian wave finding program. Next slide please. The PowerPoint presentation will consist of 15 slides tonight. I will start by briefly highlighting several key events that led us to where we are today. Following my presentation, Ms. Gosh will do it. You don't have to do all 15. I know T-Luck was into it, but we're busier. So, I'd love to cut you short, but you know. Do you want me to move it along? Move it along. OK. OK. I'm in the appropriate way. Sure, sure, sure. All right, so we are in slide two. Basically, we're going to go over the background information. I will do that. In Laura will jump in to talk about the way-finding, the definition of way-finding. Mr. Keely next to her to her right will go over the proposed sign family in way-finding methodology and the proposed pilot routes and talk about the benefits of the program. And then Laura Goesh will wrap it up with recommendations and cost estimates. Certainly we'll go over the study background real quick in November 2017. The T-Lock direct staff to work with Bike Loud in on the vulnerability of the Western Loud in Loop. Just to give you some background on that, Bike Loudoun is an advocacy group, as most of you know, that promotes a comfortable and safe bicycling and walking experience on a county shared use path and sidewalks, including county roadways for those who are avid and highly experienced cyclists. In May 2019, the Department of Transportation Capital Infrastructure and V.Dot and by Cloud in had a conversation during that conversation by Cloud and expressed interest to use way funding as a messaging tool. It formed bicyclists of an alternative route over the Dallas Greenway at Bama Ridge Road, which is located in the Ashburn District. When the bridge was built approximately 30 years ago, the bridge cross section consists of two lanes, one in each direction, with very wide shoulders on both sides and no sidewalks or shared use pass to increase capacity on this bridge. In 2020, the shoulders were repurposed, providing a four lane cross section, making it two lanes in each direction. The four lane cross section is consistent with the roadways cross section to the north and south of the bridge. However, given the limited space on the bridge, installation of a sidewalk and shared respect could not be accommodated. So today walking or biking across the bridge is not encouraged, it's deemed unsafe. And finally, in February 2021, the board approved a budget adjustment for this group to review the program development for wayfinding study. At this point, I'll pass it on to Laura Gouge, who will go over the use of the wayfinding. Thank you, Alyssa. Okay, so today we're talking about wayfinding signs that are geared toward pedestrians and bicyclists, or other people who use sidewalks, trails and bike lanes in the county to figure out where they are in their environment and how to get where they want to go. Okay, this is not a replacement for the existing welcome to wayfinding signs that are in the throughout the county right now. It is really geared toward that subset of the traveling public. And I will pass it on to Kevin to introduce the proposed wayfinding signed apology. Great, thank you, Laura. So in our work on developing the wayfinding proposed wayfinding program. We did conduct focus group outreach and received some really important input about the program design and also what the sign should look like. So really our work focused on two key components here. What the wayfinding signage should look like and where that So really our work focused on two key components here. What the wayfinding signage should look like and where that signage should go. The next couple slides show the six sign typologies that make up the wayfinding sign family. Each sign and the family is intended to serve a specific purpose at a particular point in the users' journey. I won't go through all the specifics of the different signs here, but one of the key takeaways from the focus group engagement was that there was a preference for the standard green signs that you see on this slide here. So that was really in the interest of simplicity and cost effectiveness. So the bulk of the signage in the proposed way of finding program would be comprised of these standard green signs. There might also be custom elements as part of the program. Here we have a few different concepts that were developed with input from the focus group members and in coordination with DTCI that serve different purposes along a journey. Again, I won't go into too much detail, but these would be subject to additional design efforts to revise and refine the concepts that you see here should the board choose to explore this further. And so in developing the program concepts, we also explored working with DTCI staff and with concerning the focus group input. We developed a set of methodologies for prioritizing wayfinding location selection. And those methodologies were built on two foundational themes of directing people where they want to go by walking, biking and rolling, and doing so using relatively low stress routes. So this concept of low stress routes is really critical to encouraging the widest cross-section of potential users that we will be sending them on a viable route that's comfortable. Some examples of low stress routes include shared-use paths, dedicated on-street facilities like bike lanes, separated bike lanes, and shared road conditions along low-speed, low-volume streets. This approach yielded the, what you see in the schematic here, a series of organizing elements that comprise the wayfinding system. It's all built around priority destinations where people want to get to by walking, biking, and rolling, and then using those low-stress facilities to get folks to those priority destinations in a safe and comfortable manner. So here you see the court weigh-finning routes, which are the spine of the system and then you have supporting weigh-finning routes that connect to the priority destinations. So rather than rolling this out on a county-wide basis, DCCI is proposing a pair of pilot roots. This first one is in the eastern part of the county and connects to high profile destinations, the WNOD trail and the Ashburn Metro Rail Station and leverages all the ongoing investments in active transportation facilities in this area of the county. This pilot route is four miles in length with an estimated 54 signs and a cost of $270,000. Our second pilot route is in the western part of the, the, the, the impetus for this whole effort, which is the Western Lown and Bike Route. This connects villages and towns in the western part of the county using a variety of, low stress facilities. It also connects to the vineyards, distilleries and breweries in this part of the county, and it's estimated in length of 43 and a half miles with 205 signs at a cost of $990,000. And then just to circle back to the program benefits, these are the benefits of wayfinding generally but also of formalized countywide program. First and foremost, it helps people orient themselves within the county's active transportation network and that's as that network continues to grow and become more robust and gaps are filled in. It helps direct people to comfortable direct routes to key destinations. It also aligns with the county's vision for safe and efficient travel to multiple destinations by multiple modes it promotes retail centers and commercial activity and it also really complements the county's capital investments the the substantial capital investments in the side of our control program and celebrates the fact that the county does have and continues to build out a premier active transportation network. I'll turn to Dr. Laura to talk about recommendations. Okay, so we presented the previous slides to the T-Lock on September 18th. And at that time, the T-Lock is recommending to the Board of Supervisors that they endorse the proposed cany-wide bicycle pedestrian wavefinding program, which includes endorsing the two proposed pilot bicycle wavefinding routes, the prioritization methodologies, and the recommended wavefinding routes, the prioritization methodologies, and the recommended wayfinding signed apologies. The cost of the next steps for those elements are listed in the table on this slide. And you can see here that the total cost of implementing the pilot way finding roots is $1,260,000 and the total cost of doing the pilot roots plus the additional sign design and prioritization application of the prioritization methodologies is $1,730,000. Estimated. Okay. So our staff recommendation tonight is to forward the funding discussion, totaling $1,730,000 to a future CIP budget discussion. And that is it for presentation. All right, very good. I know Supervisor Brisbane has potential modifications to the motion. Why don't we just go right to you. I move that the finance government operations and economic development committee recommend that the board of supervisors direct staff to send the funding discussion for implementation of the pilot, bicycle, wayfinding routes development of customized wayfinding signage and prioritization analysis for further root selection, totaling $1,730,000 has described in the October 8th. 2024 finance government operations and economic development committee item to a further, to a future capital improvement budget process for consideration and prioritization by the board. I further move that the FGOEDC recommend that the Board of Supervisors direct staff to identify the feasibility of an additional pilot route in Eastern Loudon. And I'm going to add a little bit to this sentence in Eastern Loudon as part of the proposed wayfinding program. Second. Most is made by Sir Resurrected and second of my Supervisor Saints opening. Thank you. So I added that just to make sure that it's part of the same CIP project if that makes sense. I did have a bit of heartburn over this item when it was first presented to me because I felt as if we were spending three times the amount of money on a pilot route that was not necessarily functional for the majority of our residents. But recognizing that this is a project that started back in 2017, I also understand that there may have been some shifting in policy intentions from the board. So, initially I was thinking about trying to shorten that 40-mile route because the 40-mile route is really only something that's going to be used by very, very serious cyclists or tourists. And so in my mind, if it's more for the tourist industry, maybe we should be using, you know, like transit occupancy tax or something like that. But I also understand this is a project that started in 2017. So as a compromise I would like for my colleagues to support an additional more functional route in a part of the county where it can serve more of our residents and less of our tourist crowd if that makes sense. So that's why I added that particular part to the motion. And also there was a little bit of a change from 2017 to our general plan in 2019 because in the general plan, it says that bicycle and pedestrian wayfinding should provide small parking areas and should focus on the suburban and transitional policy areas. So that actually was a little bit of a change in our policy since this project was first started. So that's the addition, but I'm really happy that we're doing this and I'm really happy that we will be working again toward multimodal forms of transportation in our county. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Saints. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Brisbane, for the motion. Just to clarify, the motion says to a future CIP budget process, do we need to spell out exactly which one? Because are we talking about 26? Are we going to talk about 27 or 28, CIP, which do we need to be a little bit more? It's really up to your discussion. So, I'll be asked with the way the motion is now, would you be putting it to the most upcoming CIP discussion or? Thank you, Chair. Supervisor Sains, the way staff would incorporate this motion is we would incorporate it into the next budget process. If you want to be specific for sake of the motion, I would say into the FY26 CIP process. I think we would default to trying to do it in that process and talk to you about where we're able to put it. Okay, no, as long as it's involved. I can accept that as a friendly. Just to identify the CIP process is FY26. Second. More specific. Thank you. Okay. The motion was amended and seconded. Chair random. I'm not going to support this motion with this. Listen. The start with we're one county. And so anything that's in the east is also in the west. People can go to the west and ride. And there is a pilot in the east. It's the WOD in trail to the aspirin metro. The WOD trail runs all through Maiden County, Eastern Laudin County. Eastern Loudon County. It's there anyway. Eastern Loudon County right now does have more sidewalks, it does have more trails, it does have more already. There's a lot already there and more coming and more coming. And, you know, this is the same discussion we have a lot. And later on when it's time to fund something somewhere else in the county, This is the same discussion we have a lot. Later on when it's time to fund something somewhere else in the county, people are going to be like, I don't want to fund that because there's nobody in that part of the county. At some point, yeah, I'm just not going to support this. Okay. Yeah, you can have a closing. I'll have it spoken on the motion. I just wanted to next. No, there's no random motion. Okay, so I think I'll support it at this point. I don't know when we get to the CIP. I mean, look, the CIP is just a prioritization of projects that we want to get done using a finite amount of money. So what I prioritize, a 40 mile, you know, 205 sign wayfinding projects over an intersection improvement or a safety improvement somewhere, probably not. But right now we're just sending it to the budget process for discussion. You know, I always feel a little left out of these conversations and all seriousness, because we have virtually nothing in the southern part of the county. What's so ever, you can't cross through it 50, so you can't connect to any of the wonderful things we're doing everywhere else in the county. And that is why, which I'll bring up, and I guess the next item, I have really need to get this interchange done at some point, so that we can connect these things. But, you know, it is kind of left behind completely on if it's, I think it's fine to move this forward, it's not a lot of work on it. The one question I did have is, I mean, technology seems like it's changed. I mean, we're now, you know, making phone calls on our watches and things like that. So I kind of wondered, I don't mean to sound, you know, is there a better way to do wave finding, I guess, than sticking 205 signs out there? You know, is there a way using technology? Is there like a you know a QR code you can use to sort of follow it? I don't know. I mean have we looked at anything like that or is this just very focused on kind of what the board directed you to do now seven years ago? So as part of the focus group discussions We had a lot of discussions about QR codes or other pieces of technology that would support it. Certainly there was an ADA component discussion as part of that relies on technology to interpret the signs. There are virtual direction apps that you could use, particularly when you get it West and solve services, spotty, those become challenging, right? So we see this as kind of a hand in hand. If you lose power with your phone, you still want to know how to get to where you want to get to. Okay, no, fair enough. But maybe in the east, if we're looking at pilots, they could be something we looked at. So, okay, closing the reservoir. Thank you, Chair Luterno. It's also not really safe to be looking at your phone when you're trying to ride your bike. They do have a little holder's name. So, I will point out though that nobody is, I'm not asking this motion to not do the 40 mile route. I didn't ask to unfund anything. I'm just asking to have another route where that could be functional as we move toward trying to reduce the car centric nature of our county, our entire county. So I appreciate you guys being willing to work on a second route that could be more functional and used by more people. And I look forward to using all of them. Thank you. All right. I'll figure out the motion to say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion'll figure out the motion. Say aye. Aye. I'm going to oppose motion carries 4-1. All right. Moving on to item 21. Now we're into the FY 26 budget development process items. And we have a lot of friends from our towns tonight. We also have, I believe, at $75.5 million worth of requests. This is only a budget development item. We aren't voting on anything tonight. So I want to make it clear to everybody who's here for these items. This is just sort of an introduction. The board can give some general guidance. County Administrator kind of looks for that. There he is over there. We're giving you guidance, Tim, so you have to be here for this. So sorry, but we're not necessarily deciding tonight what's going in and what's going on and all those kind of things. It's more of a general direction sort of discussion. So with that, good evening. Still evening. Good evening, Chair Lutano, members of the committee. The item before you transmits the Capital Project Funding Request received from the towns. Each year, the county solicits funding requests from the towns with general project guidance being for capital projects that are improvements to facilities that are owned by the county or located within a town and operated by the county. Also pedestrian and transportation related improvements that benefit the county. Typically the board has prioritized funding for projects that include town funding and leverage other funding sources rather than requesting 100 percent county funding. The item on includes a summary in table one of all the requests received. There were 20 projects totaling $75.5 million. Att attachment one to the item includes the details of each of the project requests. Of note, the town of Leesburg did requests to partner with the county on the South King Street route 15, route seven bypass interchange improvements project. Planning level documents associated with that project are needed in order to have the project ready to begin once the counties route seven improvements route nine to the Dallas Greenway long-term improvements project concludes. The planning level documents are estimated to cost four million dollars so the town of Lieber, Leesburg is requesting that the county match the town's $2 million contribution for those documents with funding provided in FY 25 or FY 26. Should the board decide to partner with the town in FY 25, then staff would recommend that that discussion be included as part of the FY 24 fund balance discussion if the board would like to do that. I just want to make sure I understand what you're telling us. This is the $17 million project that's listed here in our item, but you're saying that the request is actually to do 2 million of that up front. Yes. And include that in the fund balance discussion. If the board would like to partner with the town and provide that funding in FY25. Okay. If the board would like to partner with the town and provide that funding in FY 25. Okay. All right. And those are my opening remarks and we'll take any guidance or questions that the committee has. Okay. We did get a communicate from Supervisor Kirchner who could not be here but wanted to note that nine out of the 16, well, 16 total projects are in the Catoctin districts. Nine out of 16 have local contributions. Three out of five towns have local contributions. And then he noted in particular a request that we look at the smaller requests of 500,000 and below and prioritize waste and wastewater requests, which are really important for smaller towns. And then he asked the question, which actually I was gonna ask as well, which is whether any of the pedestrian safety improvements would be included in any current county initiatives that we have ongoing in which we've ranked or looked at potential improvements. If I may bring or ask staff, please. Yeah, you would probably need help with that question. That question. And they may not have the answer to that this evening, but Mr. Hoffman, good evening again. Good evening. So I reviewed the request. The one request that may have some overlap is in the town of Hamilton where they requested funding for pedestrian improvements along Colonial Highway. And we do have projects in the planning stages of the sidewalk and trail program that also includes some missing links in the town of Hamilton. Based on my original view of the application, it was hard to tell specifically from where to where all those segments would be in the Hamilton request versus where it is on the county's planned project. That's the only one that we probably have to coordinate to see if there is any overlap on some of the town's requests versus what they only had in this program. Would we consider putting some of these projects potentially into the sidewalk and trails program ranking criteria. The next time we do that, because we have a lot of projects in the county that have to go through a ranking list. And we can't take them out and just do them in the CIP. We all agree that we're not going to do that. So it's always kind of tough when then the town projects come in and they're sort of outside that process. I don't think they should be excluded from getting funding, but I wondered, we have to prioritize the funding. So could we potentially look at doing that? I think we could. OK, and that might be a way to help prioritize some of these things. Well, just in terms of general guidance, I guess comments, which I think we're sort of being asked to give here a little bit. I do continue to wonder if we should have some discussion with loud and water about some of the smaller water systems and potentially taking some of those over, obviously, with some assistance to help with that that might just be a more feasible way. But understanding, for me, of these town requests, wastewater understandable, that was something that we should probably consider. Obviously, the ones that have town contributions would be prioritized for me. But I struggle with the intersection, interchange improvement projects. There's two in here that are big, because I'll go on my soapbox for a minute. I don't have any interchanges in the entire southern part of the county with over 100,000 people. And now we're talking about improving interchanges that already exist in a part of the county with fewer people. It doesn't make sense. I'm not yelling at you guys, it's not your fault. But as you all know, I have been trying for literally now 13 years to get a project moving at Roof 50 in Loudoun County Parkway. It is a half a billion dollars. I am not spending money on improving another interchange until I have that thing funded and we're not close. So that's just where I am. I know that's not where everybody is. But at some point, we've got to take care of the southern part of the county and prioritize it and we can't keep getting Divertied here and there and everywhere to improve other things. We got Route 7 done. It's great. I'm glad we did it So those people deserve it, but now we've got to look at the southern part of the county So I would not be supporting the larger Interchange upgrade type of projects considering the status of the lack of interchanges But I certainly think that we can incorporate some of these projects in the CIP and work with our towns that are trying to improve their situations and help. That's me. All right, Mr. Staines. Thank you. Just had a question for the committee chair and staff. So the request from the towns is pretty much just, again, not trying to be cute here, but it could be anything and everything, or do we have a criteria for them? Because we do see a mixture of road improvements, safety improvements, the nurse water treatment requests, but then there's a request to fix up historical buildings, churches, the like, does that match? so we just have an open-ended criteria? The typical guidance has been for pedestrian and transportation related improvements, facilities that the county owns or operates that are located in the towns. And the board has supported in the past water, wastewater, so we're related projects that also benefit county residents. Okay, so off memory, he's put you on a spot, but have we ever funded restoring old buildings and- Yes, we have. Okay, so it's pretty much open-ended request then. They can submit any request. Okay, All right. Okay. Supervisor Amsterdam. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I very much sympathize with Supervisor Lutorno. Is there any way for us to get him his $500 million quickly? So I could quit. Yeah, so you could quit. Yeah, I was saying it could be anything. No, I mean, I don't disagree with you on that. But I do think, and this is something supervisor Luternos had that water and wastewater projects are of special importance for the, especially the smaller towns. And I would tend to prioritize those over other projects. did eliminate from its list of requests. A hugely expensive project, which is the bypass, the route 15 bypass interchange at Edwards Ferry Road and Fort Evans. It would be a huge project, probably $300 million. And when the Leisbertown Manager met with Mr. Hems Street and me, I told Mr. Dentler at the town that the county would never have that kind of money. And unless the federal government wants to come in and provide that kind of funding, I just don't think we could support that project at any point. So the town did come back and request much smaller amounts of money in this year or in the next fiscal year certainly $2 million from the county for basically accommodating the widening of route seven from route nine to the greenway with a planning documents for the interchange at the bypass and South King Street. I would like to see us put two million in out of the 2024 fund balance. And that's with all the respect in the world for Mr. Luterno and his frustration. And I would be happy to support him on his project down in the south, probably above a lot of other projects. So anyway, that's where I'm coming from. Thanks. Okay, thank you, Mr. President. I'm stead,. Thanks. Okay, thank you, Supervisor Amsterdam, that chair Randall. So I'm gonna ask the same question again. So looking at all the requests, and of course I always want to support our towns always. But looking at all the requests, it feels like that Leedsburg and Perseville, their local contributions that they use was, and one other place was NVTA. But it just could be Leedsbury from Turissa, no other local contributions that they put in, but MBTA money. And then they came to the county for the rest. And I have to say again, there are so many pots of money out there that we are not accessing. Leedsbury in Percivil, because of their sizes, could apply for CTV money. Why they haven't or in some cases have and kind of gave it back to some degree. Especially if it is a historical building, there's a lot of grants you can apply for. I mean, obviously I want to support, especially with what they're doing in Middleburg, with the church, with the historic African American church. And I really do appreciate the mayor of Middleburg giving me a call and telling me about that. But the number of grant opportunities out there for these types of projects are vast. And so, I keep thinking, yes, if you have to come to the county for funds, okay. But the first thing to come to the county for funds, okay. But the first thing you come to the county for is talk to our grant writers and find out what you're not accessing because the money is out there. And also I want to remind everyone that when we do this and then the tax rate goes up and half penny or penny the same people who are here are going to be yelling at us about the tax rate going up. Half penny or penny. So I don't, I'm supporting my town, I'll vote for this, I'll push it on, but I think that we, the big week, all of us can really look to do things that are a little more inventive than NVTA, which I know was coming out of the NVTA because I'm sure of NVTA the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of in a wastewater projects, looking at smaller projects that have contributions. I think, obviously, anyone could add anything at any point in the CIP process. So, if there is a desire to bring one of these really large requests into CIP, that we can, you know, some residents that could do that. And obviously, she's asking that we consider for fund balance, the $2 million. So we can have that discussion and have fund balance for $24 money. But I think in terms of what you're looking to incorporate into the base budget, I think there's general support for the things that I discussed, and then we'll have to sort of patch it out on some of these other things. Is that good enough guidance? Yes, thank you. Because you're probably going to get. All right. Thank you very much to staff and to our towns. All right. Item 22, home stretch. Transit services program updates. I really feel badly actually that we're doing this at 11.30 at night. Just because it's an important topic. We're coming back on some kind of wavy things that we've been discussing here and some service changes So I apologize it's so late but No worries supervisor turno. It's at your preference we can go through the agenda at a high level or go straight to the money slide, whatever your preference is. Literally, it's the money slide. So, well, we got a lot of money here for trash collection, so I definitely want to cover that. I'm not so sure on that one, but I don't know. What you think we need to know, Ernie? Okay, so I will, I'll give a real high level and then we'll just kind of go to the money slide, and we'll go back to the trash slide. So I know. That is what it is. And then we can just ask questions as we go, because there is some good detail in here that we can maybe hone in on. I'm not supporting that. I really do have a money slide. The money slide. Okay. So real quickly, we during the transit summit, which was really an amazing event, we gained a lot of guidance from the board and we really appreciate that opportunity to do so. We had a lot of conversations about the discontinuation of the underperforming commuter routes, the cessation of the service to and from Brambleton Park and Ride. The fair increases between 25 and 26, the pair transit service area boundary increase and then extended weekend service. Those were the boards direction out of the summit. And what we have here is the costing associated with that. This is why it's really a budget development item because we're looking at some savings and some sides and some increases on others. The net LTF impact for 2026, you're looking at just over a million dollars for those items, I'm sorry, two million dollars for those items. The biggest impacts are pair transit service increase. I'll let Scott talk about that because I'm waiting a little deeper than I should. And the increase in weakened service, basically mimicking the Saturn and Sunder services, which is a net increase in that. The other two elements that we talked about at the transit summit was the micro transit feasibility study. We do not have numbers on that yet. It should be back in December. The feasibility study on that will have a better feel of what that would look like as a cost impact in the 26th fiscal year. I know that's very late in the process. So we will just have to have a discussion about how you'd like to proceed on that. And there's no way you can have that, sorry, I mean, there are up. We will just have to have a discussion about how you'd like to proceed on that. There's no way you can have that sorry I mean there's no way you could have that for the FY24 fund balance discussion. I would certainly talk with Mr. Cost. The answer to that question is yes we will talk to if we have that we may be able to get it in with talk to Mr. Himstreet and Megan on that to see. Okay, I mean, I've really prioritized that. Okay, all right, then we'll take that for action to see if we can get enough of a nugget out of the Feesability Study. Fund balance is in one of your December meetings. Yeah, so we maybe get something early from them. Okay. The other thing that we don't have, well, we do have numbers for, I didn't want to bring it tonight because we're going to talk about on the 16th. And so I want to kind of leave the commuter bus feasibility study for that evening. But it has a notable cost for a couple of year pilot study on that. The final element that we, that was added during the feasibility, I'm sorry the transit summit was the question about trash and recycling receptacles. And there's a price delta there. One is the board that was specific about all bus stops, which the stick and flag versus shelters. Now pending Now, pending other guidance staff is recommending in this to put into the budget as a budget development the lower of those two prices. $22,000 is one-time expense and $187,000 for a recurring expense. Here's the nutshell on that. I do need to show you another money slide. Okay. So the cost to purchase trash and recycling bins for all bus stops. We're looking at the one-time cost of about just under half a million dollars and a recurring operating expense of 1.5 million. That's a pretty heavy expense for trash. When I'll just be blunt, the stick and flag sign, the poll and flag signs, what you get is dog poop. And I would ask if that is really the goal then let's put those things up through part of our water quality improvement efforts and not Create this this this expense for that is purposes. I'm just we blunt. That's our recommendation However, we do think there is value in putting it in Has anybody brought to you the term dog poop at all tonight so? They're dinner oh Then I must say I'm glad I was not there that supervisor has since the part of the meeting okay Thank you for that I've heard I thought I was gonna be the first, but I guess I'm not sorry This would be if the board wanted to pursue Oh, this was not a privileged item in any way just to be clearly It's no really clear. There's no FOIA violations here at all. All right, sorry. So if the board wanted to pursue that, we would recommend that we only pursue it at the existing shelters. As the shelter program expands, they will be part of that process and that is built into the CIP and the growth for that. So yes, we will not have doggie bins at the Poland and flag sites but I don't think that's really where we need to go. Again, that's staff recommendations. This would be our recommendation. I think it's an absorbable amount. So wait a minute, this is the right, so it's 22,500 to buy 25 10 gallon trash risk ethical is 25 10 gallon recycling receptables and 50 lids and then you're serving it, servicing it twice a week. Yes sir. Those are those locations and this is just where there are shelters. Correct. Now, for full transparency as we get more shelters, there would be more trash cans and the service will also increase proportionally. But that's already built into the expectations as we build more shelters because the shelters will have. That the lovely schematic on the right hand side is the schematic of what the trash cans would look like on the new shelter builds. Thank you. So that would, again, unless other directions provided, that would be what we would put in the budget for that purpose. This is, the board did request some more detail on the bus shelter. I will tell you that we chose this shelter not for glamour, but for practicality and long-term maintenance and effectiveness and durability. It is probably the best one out there for the ones we could choose from that provided appropriate security and safety visibility compliance with V.Dot and zoning and the maintenance is ideal for us. General services looks at long term maintenance as a critical and core factor. What we do is make sure that it is cost effective in the future for the citizens of Loudoun County. There is my spiel. So that is the prototype that we provide it back to DTCI as they move forward on the bus shelter project And if there are any questions about the actual status of the project I do know that marks here if you if you wanted to delve into that But we were not prepared to discuss that from a TGS perspective All right, so I'm gonna go back to this money slide and if there are any questions, did I say everything pretty right? Well, let's just talk for a minute, Scott. So what we have on here is the list of routes to eliminate, which is serious business. This is the same list that we had discussed the transit summit and this is being implemented was a December 4th. Second. December 2nd. Correct. Okay. That decision has been made by the board already to do that. Correct. So this is just an update reminding us that we have decided to do that. Okay. Both the commuter bus routes and the local routes that are being eliminated. Okay. And then also on December 2nd, the fares go up by dollar on the long haul? Yes. Okay. And does fares free on local get implemented then as well? January 2nd for fares free on the local fixed route services. Okay. Okay. Questions or guidance? Supervisor Brisbane. Thank you. I agree with pretty much all the recommendations. The bus shelter that you showed us is it says the other one. So, the other one is the first one. The other one is the first one. The other one is the first one. The other one is the first one. The other one is the first one. The other one is the first one. The, that's the goal. We won't, I don't know that we're gonna be there ready to do that out of the gate, but yes, that is the goal. Okay, okay, great. And I agree with the assessment on the trash, but it would be for 25 shelters, and how many bus stops do we have in the county? Just under 500. 500, okay. So would this be an appropriate time? Because I think we also talked about this at the transit summit and since we're talking about bus shelters. Would this be an appropriate time to discuss or have a motion about as we talked about accelerating the installation of the bus shelters. I think the program calls for 20 or 30 a year. And I would frankly like to see that doubled at least. So if I may, if I should burst from the, that would certainly be a question that, or a topic that needs to be discussed with DTCI, because I suspect there are constraints on how quickly they can actually roll those out. And so I would not be comfortable speaking to that because that's the DTCI side of actually constructing and implementing those. So you buy them and they construct and implement them? So they'll buy them. We did the design specs because we run the transit system. And so they are actually doing the builds and To be fair, it's quite complex. They're actually doing all the land acquisition. I know I know I know that stuff. Yeah, that's not our so but not your department. Okay. Thank you. Yes, ma'am That might be it and being a budget question. I used to submit. Yeah So you're saying. Thank you. Thank you for the presentation. I agree. Yeah. So, residents. Thank you. Thank you for the presentation. I agree. Yeah. Let's do the trash recycling for the best shelters and not for just the standalone flag polls. And for the receptacles and the trash recycling receptacles will be will these be nailed down or attached to anything or they will be free standing. They'd be attached. Okay. And for the shelters it says glass, but I'm assuming these are very hard to break, but easy to replace if... Yes, these are... The big thing with those shelters is they're already approved by V.Dot and they've got much heavier duty or standards than we do or the most bus shelters to so the glass is rated much higher. OK. And then the image it looks like there is a bench with a divider so that it looks like for three people. So is this what we're envisioning just the one bench for seating for three or will there be two benches for seating for six? Or we would probably the way that there's set up now will be one envisioning just one bench for seating for three or will there be two benches for seating for six or We would probably the way that there's set up now be one bench and then leave in space for wheelchair accessibility Okay, well that's a lot of space for wheelchair accessibility so pretty much What's in the image here? It would be looks like three people be able to sit on the bench? Yes, and then the reality of it is is if we have any shelters that end up exceeding that, it's very easy to get another bunch put in if we need it. Okay. And then the micro transit, it looks like, oh, so the study will be completed in December of 24, and then assuming in some point in the new year we'll get the study presented to us. And what we will do, as mentioned by suffrage alternatives, we'll work with Mr. Himmstreet and budget to see if we can get some preliminary numbers to get that, as part of the consideration for fund balance if that is the desire of the committee. Should be able to get some preliminary numbers out of that study before it's finalized. In which vehicle will we get the study back, everything looks good for board approves it, implement which vehicle would we use? Would it be our current vehicle that's in the right in the picture or one of these, that our image are these are just here for. They're there for show. And Scott and I have had wonderful conversations about this. There is a goal, certainly if we go full time to make it a more versatile vehicle that can handle paratransit as well. And so that would be more aligned with what the small repair transit vehicles we have now. There are a lot of options out there, and so we are looking at the best practices, which will come back with the feasibility study for those recommendations. Okay, yeah, but just if we can plan ahead, when you come back, to give us a little bit more detail and proper images of the vehicles that you're proposing for us to use for. If we move forward with this. Right, thank you. Supervisor Rumpstep. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So how confident are we that people will use recycling containers for the proper items and not use the trash container. I Don't even want to ask you guys this question, but do we analyze what people put in? Two different types of containers So putting on my solid waste hat There are very low percentages of actually recyclables that trash cans are usually a mixed bag. Scott's team has done some assessments of this and they really, they've truthfully wound up being two trash cans. Is that fair? Fair. The problem that I struggle with is it's leadership by example, right? So, while it does happen, not providing that option is a very difficult thing for us to do because we are trying to promote a stewardship ethic out there that would encourage those to do so. Now, again, it does result in low return. We are rebuilding our waste management team by creating several new positions. And we're going to spend a little more time working with PAC and developing some stronger communication strategies with promoting those kind of efforts and trying to simplify over cycling. So we're hoping to see an increase in that but this particular setup, unfortunately it is usually two trash cans. Okay, thank you. Chair Randall. I just want to be real clear because Mr. Sains asked you guys a question and the answer was not quite accurate. He asked you were you trying to sit three people that bench is not about how many people you sent that bench is because you're trying to reduce Loydor when you don't want to when you run in that in their lane down correct. Yes, man. That is the purpose the primary purposes of the area. Yeah, and truthfully I don't think he was gonna come out too loud into loiter. I just don't see that happening like we're gonna like and and I'm fine with the bench It's fine, but I but I just think there I I've never liked the idea of punishing people for being poor or homeless and I don't think he was gonna Wake wake make their way out here to loiter So if somebody does happen to be out here and they want to I wouldn't have any issue with all with that I think we need to go find that person and help them get housed versus telling them sorry but you can't be on the bitch out the elements so that's just my comment. And I would just add Chair Randall because it is a a problem that we're trying to get our head around with our social services teams. We are seeing an increased number of unhoused at our metro stops. We are, but I think that the answer is not, you can't lay down. I think the answer is, it's a different answer. It's a fine solution answer, yes. Thank you. Yeah, and to that point you're making, we do find at WAMATA, it is a deterrent for everybody else to use the system if somebody is doing that. It's just a reality. That's how people react. So it's like you got two goals. You want people to use the system. You have to have a certain level of standard that they have to feel safe and so on, and it has to be clean safe and so on and has to be clean and so on. So that's, you know, those are the two things. The trash thing, I mean, I'm barely there on even the 187. I just think this is a, we're in search of a solution to a problem but doesn't really exist. I mean, no disrespect to any of my colleagues, but I think we got literally like one complaint about this, and now all of a sudden we're gonna spend, 187,000. Is it a, I mean, is it a best practice? Is it normal? Does Fairfax connector have these at all their shelters and so on? It is generally hit or miss depending on the jurisdiction you're in, and even in the jurisdictions, I can go over to Fairfax, probably. But I'm not sure it makes sense in every location. So I would probably like to apply a little bit more of a common sense standard to this than just blanket do it. I mean, I think it's a bit of a problem. I think it's a bit of a problem. I think it's a bit of a problem. I think it's a bit of a problem. I think it's a bit of a problem. But I'm not sure it makes sense in every location. So I would probably like to apply a little bit more of a common sense standard to this, then just blank it, do it. I mean, the one time expense is not a lot. It's just more the proliferation of the trash contract. I assume we have to bring in a contractor to do this, and so on, then you get the traffic associated with those pickups and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, definitely not the high end, that would be absurd, but even the low end, this is something that's going to, you're asking for this in the 26-budget discussion, or is this... We would propose to implement this in the 26-budget discussion. Okay. So maybe as part of that, we can just get a little bit more information about... Absolutely. Okay, so maybe as part of that, we can just get a little bit more information about what the norm is here. Because I mean, I think some shelters would make sense. I'm just not sure it doesn't all of them. Otherwise, yeah, the micro-transit stuff. I mean, I've been my head in more thinking that when our current provider contract with keyless is up, whatever happens at that point, that's probably when we do a primary implementation of a completely new thing like micro transit. Am I being too cautious or conservative with that, and were you thinking of doing that sooner? It depends on when you define when the contract is up. Okay, because there's renewals associated with it. Yeah. So the original contract is up in OK, because it's renewals. Right. I associate with it. Yeah. Right. So the original contract is up in about a year and a half. Yeah. To try to implement a system wide and replace many of the routes with micro-transit would probably be a difficult proposition. You're talking about having to identify thousands of virtual bus stops and where they can actually work and We have to have a discussion around internally and externally around how do we handle bus stops when you move out of a local fixed drought world into a micro transit world For wheelchair customers right? If the wheelchair customers are riding the bus every day now. So there's a little more depth to it. It's definitely doable. It's probably the future, a mixture of local fixed routes and that. But it's not as simple as I think to be able to get that done in 18 months to that level. No, I wasn't thinking it was. I was thinking this would be a multi-year kind of transformation. I'm really excited about it. I think there's a lot of opportunities here for us but it would take us probably some time to get there. So I still would like to see if there's some upfront costs you know associate with vehicle purchase or whatever that we would discuss as part of fun balance if that's part of the study. But understanding it better, a little bit after talking it through with you, I think it's probably more something that's going to be over the long term. And then when our contract is up, I would want to see us reallocating some of the resources currently in that contract that are being used to run essentially empty buses all over into micro transit. You know, it's just a different model that we would need with our contractor So I would just I would just I'm gonna shift over to the paratransit issue because we are amazingly maxed out with with our existing seven Vehicles for that yeah, we are because we're pulling a number of the commuter buses off the road We're reallocating those resources this fiscal year to buy five more Paratransit vehicles so that we can actually solve that product solve solve, address that service need is the right way of saying that because that is the right answer. When 26 hits because we have, by making the boundary where it is, which is, people are responding and which means it's being used, which is a great testament to the services needed. So to that point, when we start decommissioning other vehicles, those are the prime opportunities to reallocate those resources to buy the right vehicle as we transition. The pilot study is really designed to help us. The feasibility study is really designed to say, here's what a pilot study should look like. And then the pilot study is to really give us the hard data about our routes and our services. Not the whole thing, but how it really works in loud and as you will know, things are changing. And there may be a suite of opportunities that are presented to us as a county, as it relates to how transit is run. And I think this provides us an opportunity to be pretty nimble with that. So. Okay. One last question. Is there value left enough value left in those buses ever retiring? That will get some money for them and be able to reallocate? Or are there so many mobbing? These buses run like millions of miles. It's amazing. Like we think about our car as 100,000 miles a lot. These buses have like one million plus miles. The 12 year buses that we're selling right now the top end we're getting out of them is 35 or 40 thousand dollars. Wow okay. So the buses the 15 or 16 buses that are left right now are about halfway through their life. Most of them there's most of them are 2017's. If we can get other jurisdictions to pick them up, we've got a couple that are interested to do them. We might be able to get some decent revenue back on them. If we end up selling them outright, I don't imagine we're going to get much more than then 60, 70,000 dollars top end on those things. How much of the paratransit vehicles? About 150,000. 150,000. And so Supervisor Turner, what I kind of highlighted, where the opportunity is there is instead of replacing a million dollar bus and the replacement fund, we're able to reallocate those funds and purchasing these. So that's really where the economy of scale comes, not necessarily the resale. Yeah, I know I just was curious. Right. Well did you mention the The reviser sayings all you want to know what the wayperiod is for a new bus in general? Oh it's long Yeah, I want to know what the new new bus way period is just a regular one on an electric bus right just a regular one regular one is 15 to 18 months. The electric buses, so we just got into two electric buses that we ordered in April of 22. Yeah. All right. And I do want to go back and just touch on the equipment. We do want to run smaller buses on the micro transit. And we can, we definitely know that there are efficiencies gained between operating between micro transit and Paratransit in down periods, so it makes a lot of sense. Yeah Okay, anything else on this side of them? All right. Well, thank you so much for the update. Appreciate all the work that's going into this Thank you I look forward to getting that study next week. All right, we've reached the end, our last item. FY26 budget development proposed, Mickey Gordon Memorial Park, and Little River. Ooh. I'm going to have to go to the next one. It's Torpey. Good evening. It is still evening, I believe. You got two minutes. I got two minutes. All right, I'll try to get through this quickly. So this item is seeking guidance from the board through this committee on improvements to Mickey Gordon Memorial Park. As I know you all are aware, a while ago staff was working to add an additional cricket pitch and potentially light the existing unlighted pitch. During that time, there was a lot of back and forth and it was discovered that back in the 80s when the site was built, there was no legislative action at all that was done for this park. So as a part of that, we started, began and submitted a special exception. And it was at that time that we started to receive significant pushback from the community as a part of that process. We agreed to pause this process and started a series of community meetings, which in hindsight we do agree should have happened prior to the submission of that special exception. With the feedback that we were getting at those initial meetings and through discussions with county administration as well as several board members, we ultimately withdrew the application with a commitment to continue those community engagement meetings to determine what the community needs were for this park. All of that occurred over the summer and fall of 2023. We took that feedback and I know that you all are aware it was significant amount of feedback and working with DTCI in the budget office worked with a contractor to create three different concepts that was based upon the feedback from the community. All three of those concepts can be found in attachment one of the item. But in generally all three of them leave the one lighted ball field that's at Mickey Gordon still lit. But it does convert it back to baseball. All of them add in. From cricket. I'm sorry. You said convert it back to baseball. That's correct. From what it is now. Currently it's cricket. Correct it. Yeah. Interpretive signage, historical signage. It adds additional parking to all three of the concepts. The recycling facility. A lot of folks don't realize that there's a recycling facility at Mickey Gordon Park, but it's on the Foreastern part of the park. It relocates that up into there and adds real restrooms in all of the concepts. Additional, excuse me, additional buffer planning along Little River Term Pike as far and quarters farm lane in all three of those concepts. Concept B, one of the differences in concept B is the addition of Pickleball Quartz and the northeast section of the park and there's a new relocated entrance drive that's closer to the intersection of Carter's Farm Road and Little River Term Pike and then that serpentines through the park and there's an actual secondary entrance on the eastern side of the park. There's additional playground and pollinator garden in this concept B as well as a second pavilion with restroom and enhancements to the pond. Concept C has the things that we originally discussed. It also adds a grouping of pickable and tennis courts in the central part of the park, but this one does maintain the entrance road and has the playground and pollinator gardens. So those concepts were completed and staff from PRCS and DTCI met once again with the community back on September 5th of this year. Prevented those concepts to the community and also placed those concepts online and provided time for the public to review and provide the feedback. So from all of that, concept A was the one that garnered the most support. I will say that the primary comments that we received throughout this process was, please put popcorn field back to baseball, eliminate all lights from the site, and if it all possible, don't pave the driveway or the parking areas as they wanted that to remain gravel, which is in the community's opinion more in line with the rural character of the park. You'll see in the option A, we do not have a recommendation to remove the one-lighted ball field and we have in there for paving. That's just our current standard. Obviously that has been taken care of in other park applications. If we go through the special exception process, Love It's Bill is an example where gravel was replaced, Replace the pay being up in that particular park. So from this staff is recommending concept A, But we also would like to add a few amenities that came up in conversation as well. A couple of pickleball courts added to concept A and a second pavilion with restroom, all of that in the central part of the park and a few associated parking spots with that. So it is our recommendation that this concept be endorsed and included as a part of the upcom and CIP discussions and that based upon the outcome of those discussions we would move forward with the appropriate legislative type application. And with that I'll turn it back over to you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Torpey. Mr. Torpey, we should have bought you a suit of armor for the amount of work that's gone on in this. That a very difficult process. Appreciate your work and patience. I'm confused about why we're even here at this point on this. Honestly, we have to, completely no, let me, I'm sorry, let me ask the question first. We have completely deviated from what the intent was of PRCS, which to actually try to provide services that we have a demand for in the county. And now we're pivoting to something that quite frankly to me doesn't seem to have very much value, especially considering the massive demand we have and unmet needs across the board in the county and lots of other money that we could allocate to actually address them. So I'm kind of confused. I admire your persistence, but I feel like if this was a starting point today, you would never have initiated this project. So the, there's no doubt that the process was backwards. There's no doubt about that. And one of the things that we're trying to do here is, as we do with all of our projects, is be responsive to the community that we're trying to serve. And one of the things that also has come to light, I mean, you are correct and that we have a growing need for cricket and we are, we have a large demand for that. One of the things though, just like in other sports, one of the things that we hear from that community as well is the travel time that they have to go all the way out there. And so, you know, in some of the other projects that have been initiated or have come through your approval process, even while this is going forward. The Arcola project is a perfect example of that. We're trying to deal with that by adding pitches where we can further in towards the population base. And so, yes, it's different from where we started but that also that change was really based on that feedback that we got. No and I understand but I'm just questioning the allocation of money at this point to something which is not really addressing a demand issue. I'm not saying we should stick with the original plan. Communities doesn't want it, But at this point, why would we prioritize funding this over I could, you know, super-reservoir and I could give you a list of my own long of things that we know we really need? Yeah, well, and I think that's where the discussion would come as far as priority in the CIP discussion. And some of these things we could, and we have been, like for example, we recently as a part of the park renovation fund and renovated one of the pavilions that are out there. Just as a normal maintenance type thing. And so this very well could be a combination that it's a CIP project for certain things in the future and we have a discussion at that time about okay this is the priority thing that needs to happen out there perhaps we do that in another manner. All right last thing I'll say and I'll turn over to others is I wish timing wise we have not approved the Dulles South Community Park plan yet which I know I believe is going to be a PRCS cricket recommendation, but I also sat through a community meeting on that project in which there was similar type of opposition to the cricket pitch or any pitches for that matter of any sport, especially with lights in that area. So I'm really uncomfortable doing anything that eliminates a pitch until we're darn sure that we're replacing it. And I can't say, and yes, we've got the one at our COLA as part of that project. But other than that, you know, this dull self project would be big and I'm not sure it's going to happen. So, timing wise here, that's tough. Well, one of the things that's happening also currently at Hands in Park, we do have the overlay pitches that will be done in this month, which is similar to what we did at Bowling. Yep. All right. Let's go this way this time, Chair Randall. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So I was at the meetings in Middleburg with Mr. Crrony who did a fantastic job in Mr. Torpy. My gosh, you were just incredible. I mean, you took a lot of incoming, you turned it around, it was just incredible. One of the things that was said over and over again, because I did take the stats out to them and say, like, how often the fact that they weren't using these baseball fields very often, if they weren't using them very often. And what they said to me and as it turns out after I checked on it, it was true. Is that the county for whatever reason had for the most part stop caring for this field. So it was kind of so the whole place was overran and it was not some place that was particularly, I mean, even the baseball diamond, it was just kind of, it was like the forgotten park. And so it was almost like, if you build it, we will come back kind of thing. And so, and I did hear that, I did hear, because I confronted them pretty hard and said, you're not using it anyway. And they talked about how the community themselves had gone out and been the ones that have been moaning it for a long time, because the county had stopped doing that. And then when the community didn't do it as much, it just kind of got over ran. And so they would find some place else to go play baseball. But they were very clear that they wanted to still play baseball there. And so I've never had kids that play baseball past T-ball. I hear all the time the baseball fields are needed. So I honestly don't know. Obviously, we do know cricket pitches are needed as well. And so I don't know what is that. I don't know, like I say, one thing more than the other. I think that, you know, there's communities that allow and I understand that too. So I don't know. The one thing I would agree is because I haven't gone out there more than once is the light, the one light that's out there, you drive from that light to the closest house. I don't quite understand that complaint because that light is not shining in that house. And the new light would be very directional so it would just be kind of down. And so that they wouldn't see that light at all. And if they really, again, I don't know how baseball would have been to baseball. I guess it's just a summer sport and so you don't really play in the winter anyway. But they want to use that field. And the winter, use it at all later on. You need to have a lit field out there, even for the summer. If you want to go past eight o'clock, you won't have at least one lit field. So I do believe the field should be lit. And I'll support this effort because the constituents are saying that they do need the base, that they want and still need the baseball fields. But Mr. Lutano, I also hear constituents who talk about the cricket fields just as much too. So I understand what you're saying. Okay, so those are saying? Thank you. It's a tough situation. Yes, you have concerns or suggestions from the community. Definitely want to hear from the community. But at the same time, the county does have needs. So when we see an opportunity to add or programming, especially if there's the need increases, we need to try to figure that out. So I think this is an opportunity to, yes, restore the baseball, but at the same time keep up a pitch at this facility. And to me, it makes sense to enhance what's already there, because we know people walk. The trails, as one of our former colleagues would say, I'm not sure if you can see that there's a lot of things that we can't see. What's already there? We know people walk. The trails as one of our former colleagues we say they've made a goat trail. So the goat pass why not enhance that? We know people are there doing that already. And chair Randall is absolutely correct. the site. We're in that area met and went to an event and drove past that area at night stopped. And yeah, the light that's there is definitely shining directly onto the field and not in the pathway of the house. And so I think if we improve the lighting, there's still going to be any issues with lighting. So I think we need to keep the lighting and improve the lighting there. So to me, my personal opinion, I I'm only one vote, but my vote would actually be option B. Because we need we know we need these things and I believe it's kind of the old old saying and the movie if you build it, they will come. I know people are already going there and I think if we enhance it and keep up the maintenance, people will continue to go there and use this area for many years coming in and joy. The recreation and various stages from in the morning or lunchtime afternoon and in the evening and be able to have fun in that nice setting. So it was up to me like I said I'll be voting for option B but I think we definitely need to have the pitch there in the lights. So thank you. So, Rosa Briskman. Thank you. If I read in the item correctly 17 years ago, Parks and Rec decided to decommission the baseball field because it wasn't being used. Not 17 years ago. There was two soccer fields that were not being used. And 17 years ago, those were converted over to a cricket pitch. OK. And then about seven or eight years ago was when the baseball field was converted as well. Because, because... Lack of use. Lack of use. Lack of use. People weren't registering to use it or asking to use it. That's correct. So it was converted to cricket as well. Yeah, it's a modified cricket field because it's not as large as a normal pitch because of the size of the baseball field. And help me understand, I don't understand cricket actually that well. So help me, and then when that happened, the cricket club actually formed their club and started playing there. The community came to us and actually we run the Loudoun County Adult Cricket League, Parks and Rec does, and that started the 17 years ago when we built that first pitch. Okay, okay, so there used to going out there. They've been playing at Mickey Gordon for some time. Yes. And are both pitches used consistently and constantly right now? The fall season, the one pitch is only used on the weekends because it's unlighted. The other one is not used every day but it is used every Saturday and Sunday and several days during the week. Okay and if there's a cricket tournament happening is it better to have more fields in one place like if you're having a cricket tournament are there more than one is there more than than one game going on at a time? If you are holding a cricket tournament, typically what they try to do, like when the tournaments come in historically, they oftentimes are held at Bolton or Hansen because those pitches are of the correct size. They're not modified. Neither size at Mickey Gordon is correct. The unlighted cricket pitch is a little bit small as well. That's why if you see any item there is a thing for re-grading of the existing cricket pitch that stays. And making it larger. That's correct. I guess I'm confused as to why we would remove a cricket pitch that is getting a good amount of use after it was put there because the baseball field was getting no use. And we didn't have any demand for baseball there. So baseball is something that comes up and down. But the biggest issue that we are seeing out there is not just with cricket or baseball, but with every sport is the leagues don't want to travel that far. Yeah, OK. And so when we're going through this process, one of the things that we were trying to take into account also is what is happening in other areas of the county, where can we provide the service the best, what is the best way for us to utilize the funds that would be coming and looking long-term because we have heard, as I mentioned earlier, that if there were other options, the folks that are currently playing out there would rather not be making that 45-minute ride. But the plan is it stands, well first of all, the original plan was actually to add a cricket field. Yeah, at that time we did not have other options that were available to us and that was- Oh, I see you're saying. Okay. other options that were available to us and that was- Oh I see you're saying okay um but if we're going to have the baseball field with lights now in the new plan why wouldn't we put lights on the cricket field? Well that could be an option but the as you know we have had challenges with lighting fields in the West particular. OK, even though we have dark sky lighting technology. OK. And what was the original, what first of all, Mr. Torpy? I'm not sure I agree with you that the process was backward because your department came up with a plan based on needs and demands of the county. So maybe the plan could have gotten to folks earlier, maybe the messaging could have been better, but I don't know that I would call it backward because you did it based on how long have you been with the county? Over 27 years. Right, so you have a good understanding of what the demands and needs are for recreation in the county. So I just I just wanted to tell you that I don't think it was necessarily backward. I just think maybe the messaging could have been better, maybe the community could have seen it earlier, something like that. And, oh, my last question is how big was the first budget? Right now, we're looking at 10 million versus upward from that. There wasn't a budget, it was something that we were going and it's correct. Okay, okay, thank you. All right, let me just jump in. I do know a lot about baseball, as you all know. So baseball field allocation is all driven by leaks. Whether it's travel organizations or rec leagues or whatever it is and sometimes both are hybrids. So the issue here, and you say in the item that you have survey leaks even currently, and there is no interest in using this field. For leaks, that's correct. One of the things that we were thinking is, you have a significant number of independent teams that are popping as well. And this could be a thing. But the one thing about independent teams is, they typically are older. And so would have a later allocation is usually the way it goes but if they would not be interested if there was not lighting. Yeah so just to be clear which proposals include lighting? All three. All three right yeah but only on the baseball field. That's correct. That's being converted away from cricket. That's correct. OK. All right. Well, I'm not going to make a motion on this because I'm just being honest. Like, we could send this to the CIP, but I know I'm not going to vote for funding for it in the six-year period just because we barely have any room in the CIP anyway. And there are other parks and rec projects that I'm just going to see as a higher priority. And I am not going to vote at this point, take away a cricket field. Unless we know for sure we're getting another one, that will replace it as part of Dell's South. And we're not there yet. We haven't gone through the process yet. We haven't approved it yet. I don't know where it's gonna go, so I'm not comfortable with doing it yet. Maybe I would be down the road. So, Chair Randall, would you like to make a motion? I'll make the motion. I'm one of the finance and scrap remalperations and economic development committee recommend the board supervisors approve concept A for Mickey Gordon Park with the addition to this concept before Pickleball courts, Park and additional Pavilion restroom facility and the rec staff to bring the necessary to begin the necessary work to initiate the specs process based upon this plan. I further move the funding consideration for Mickey Gordon Park and Pooom is be sent to the FY26 budget process, prioritization and the capital improvement program. Motion's made, Sarah seconds. Motion dies for lack of seconds. Guys, Laura Laura come on. All right, I'll second but I have a question to ask. All right, most second I miss your scenes. All right. Further. I want to opening. Yep, it's your Randall's opening. We're in motion. So at the very least, just out of some professional courtesy, knowing how much Laura Mr. Crotton Krutten has done on this issue, we should at least let her talk about this when we, because this just is moving it to the board's advice meeting. That's all this is doing tonight. It's moving to that meeting. You can vote against it there, but to not even allow her to speak on this after all this time that she works on this. Again, there's a level of professional courtesy that I think we seem to have one another. Listen, I don't know anything about baseball. I know what the community has said, I know and I feel like I said it, but then it just got ignored. They said that they weren't using it for the reasons I stayed it. I don't need to state it again. And the truth was, when you will look at the field, the whole place was not being well cared for. It was overgrown. There wasn't the baseball fields were not at all cared for. And so it is realistic to me that that could have been the issue. You know, the people in that area in St. Louis and the Middle Burg feel very much like this is their park. And, you know, these are always heart decisions because it's a big county and there's need all around the whole county. There is. There just is. And so, you know, we'll see what happens. I will support it when we get to the full meeting because I, you know, I have followed this all the way through, including going to the meetings. And so I don't think it's as simple as we have a park that wasn't being used. I think that there was a reason it wasn't being used. And there are leagues that are staying that they want to be out there now. In fact, they've literally reconstituted their leak to start playing there now so I'm gonna support it but but but I will definitely Push us to move this forward just if if nothing else to let mr. Crony speak on this item Thank you just a procedural question mr. Hems. If the board were to not approve a concept, this would still go to the full board, just with a recommendation of- No recommendation. Just with no, yeah, with a recommendation that we not approve it, right? I do not. Well, I guess so, you know. So we would ask you to just say down the record that you're not making a recommendation. Yeah, yeah. So you could. But it would still go to the full board, I guess. Okay, yeah, so Mr. Crony will have an opportunity either way. This is just the finance committee's recommendation. Okay, Mr. Sains. Thank you. Clarify for Mr. Tarpy for the rule any option. This says reestablish the cricket pitch one. But none of those would have, as right now, you're being proposed. None of those would have lights. That is correct. The lights would remain where they are right now, which is on the converted baseball field. OK. And then can you speak to the assumption that people were not using the fields fields or the baseball field before it was converted to a pitch because they're not being maintained. Who was supposed to be maintaining and how often were we maintaining it if we were maintaining it. Could you give us more information on that? So that is the maintenance that was occurring is no different than was happening at all of our other un-staffed park sites. I think where the opinion of that in the community may be coming from is that if we don't have scheduled use on ball fields, we do not go out and do the dragging of the ball fields and the lining of the ball fields and things like that. That's, I mean, with 300 and some odd ball fields, we have to direct the resources towards the ones that are scheduled for use. So I could see where there was periods of time where the infields were not drug or lines put down on something like that and over time that does make a ball field look different than the ones that are being maintained. But there was maintenance being done out on that part. So at least cutting the outfield and then is it true or not that if there was a league playing, sometimes the league will take it upon themselves to drag a little thing for the dirt or put the lines down themselves. I'm not going to say that leagues don't do that because I know Chair Lutorno is sitting there and has probably done that many times, but we discourage that simply from a liability standpoint but I do know that that does happen. Okay. And I don't know if you know this or not when was the last time there was a league using that facility? Well, I mean it's been converted to cricket for several years. And there was a period of time where we had both cricket and the in-field skinned. But that was obviously problematic when you have a pitch behind second base and trying to have multi-use. So it's been a little while since a base. Yes that's correct. And so in your opinion though would you prefer to have a light set the the the reestablished cricket pitch? I'm sorry I didn't catch would you prefer to have lights at the cricket pitch? The well and any And any field that is lighted is obviously a benefit to us as far as overall programming. The challenge that I have with recommending adding an additional lighted field out there is it is a lot of money and as we talked about earlier as we have other things come online in different areas of the county I would fear that there would be another situation where we have a lighted cricket pitch that is underutilized after spending that money. Yeah, Chef. Okay. All right. That answer my question. Thank you. Sir, I was a risk one. Thank you. I think I'm going to abstain because I'm not sure that I would recommend approval for concept A. But I am okay with this going forward for a conversation at the Board of Supervisors. I'm just not ready to recommend A, B, or C. I need to have more understanding of what's going to be lit, what's not going to be lit. And so I'm probably just going to abstain from this motion. Thank you. Yeah, I'm not going to vote for the motion. I'm not if I'm going to stand or just oppose it. But I think for me, it's really a timing question of understanding what the big picture is before we approve one of these plans. Because like I said, we have some uncertainty over what the replacement for this is going to be. And so I would really need to be able to look back community in the eye and say we have something for you that's coming before we vote to endorse a plan that gets rid of something that they're currently using. And I'm really highly skeptical that there's a lot of use for baseball out there for this. It's just, it's baseball as a type of sport that's played every night and yes, travel teams travel all over the place and you know I've been through that. But you know, the wreck leagues need something pretty close by in volume for that and we've provided you know we have we still need but we have provided some of that and been able to accommodate that and hand some other places where the population is growing so this is not going to be a great use for this compared to a use that is existing so I just think it's premature to endorse a plan now that, you know, until we have what the big picture is for the services that we need to provide. That's bottom line for me. So I wouldn't say I would be against this avion forever, but at this moment, I'm not, I can't vote for it. Closing to your end. The population is not supposed to be growing in that part of the county. That's the whole point of that part of the county and the zoning in that part of the county. So if we're going to base things on where the population is growing, the West is never going to get anything because it's not supposed to be growing out there. These meetings were not one or two people or 20 people. These meetings were packed with constituents in St. Louis and Middleburg, which by the way, this is St. Louis and Middleburg, not just Middleburg. And these people who have been there for a long time and have lots of history playing on those fields. Lots and lots of history going back generations playing on those fields, playing baseball on those fields lots and lots of history going back generations playing on those fields playing baseball on those fields. So I missed it. I don't know how a field that's supposed to look. I don't know, but I do know that I go to our parks if I have because I'm, because you dragged me there enough to know that this one did not look like it had been cared for very well at all. And not just the baseball pitch, just the park, the overall the park did not look like it had been cared for very well at all. And not just the baseball pitch, just the park, over all the park did not look like it had been cared for. And I understand what you're saying is you're not going to do care for when those games play. But the entire park, it just didn't look like it had received the care that other parks and Laudan County have received. So, you know, I'm not going to say the community is wrong, that when they say that they want a baseball field, or as they call it, their baseball fields back, and we'll see what happens at the meeting. Thank you. Okay, I'll have to hear the motion say aye. Aye. Opposed? No? Aye. Abstain. Abstain. Okay. Opposed? No. Any? Upstanding. Upstanding. So motion fails one, two, two. But it would be forwarded to the Board of Supervisors with just no recommendation. Or a recommendation that yeah. It's not a recommendation that to die. We just did an endorse at this time concept day. No I don't think so. Something different. Let's ask staff. I would say you're wrong if I said it. Okay. Ms. McClellan. Your lights on. So. Would you like a motion for me to forward this with? I think this is a no recommendation from the committee or you could vote to have a denial recommendation? No, I don't think that's necessary at this point. So it'll be a no recommendation forward to the board. The finance committee declined to endorse the concepts, but it should still go to the board. The board, the finance committee declined to endorse the concepts, but it should still go to the board. Or discussion. Okay. At this time. Yes. Okay. We'll go to the board with no recommendation. Yes. Not with a no recommendation, without any recommendation. Yes. Yes. Oh. Okay. Not. No one should say it. Not no. Right. I apologize. Chair Randall worded it better. Yes, that is what I meant. Yep, you got it. Okay, with no further business to become before the Finance Committee, we are adjourned. Thank you. you