I'm the First item on the docket. It's consideration under minutes from November 20th, 2024. Is there other members of the board who would have corrections or modifications for the minutes as a minute? Seeing none, any members of the public that have corrections or modifications for the minutes as submitted? Seeing none, may I have a motion, please? It's a move. There are second. Second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This is item number three, B-A-R 2024-00398, Oldenstark District request for alterations at 1308 Michigan Avenue. The applicant is Michelle Garofalo and Daniel Boeger, representing, represented by Tom B. Jack, agent. I remember the board had like to remove this item from the consent calendar. Is there any, I remember the public, I would like to remove this item from the consent calendar. Is there any member of the public that would like to remove this item from the consent calendar? Seeing none, we're close public hearing. We have a motion on the consent calendar, please. I move to approve consent calendar item number three with staff recommendations. Is there a second? Second. All of them favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed say nay. Second all of the favor say aye Hi, aye Opposed nay, I's happy your item was on the consent calendar. It has been approved and thank you for coming out And next we will move on to new business mr. Conkey Thank you sure we have one item under new business tonight. That's two items, but one one discussion It's item number four and number five BAR 2024 dash 0 0 4 0 9 one discussion. I don't know, I don't know. Number four and number five, B-A-R-2024-00409, Oldenstort District, request for alterations in an addition at 413 Green Street, applicant is James Hughes and Diane Grist by Scott Fleming. And B-A-R-2024, dash 00414, Oldenstort District, request for partial demolition and encapsulation at 413 Green Street. The applicant is James Hughes and then grist by Scott Fleming. So applicant, here to speak on behalf of this application. Please stage your name and address for the record, please. Okay, sorry. Scott Fleming and address for the record please. Okay, sorry. It's got Fleming, a restaurant architecture representing the owners, Diane and James. I was just going to give a brief description of the project kind of going through our logic of where we ended up and what we presented. You know, the owners, James and Diane, they say end unit townhouse, they wanted to kind of expand with the existing kitchen areas. It's very narrow. It's in the string of colonial revival townhomes that are all similar in size and issues. Sorry. We evaluated a number of designs carefully The, the, the, sorry. We evaluated a number of designs carefully vetting kind of the plan, the footprint, the site is an end unit. There is available space on the side yard and the rear yard. The, the, as part of the process, there was a heavy discussion about how deep the, the addition would go and what we ended up with was basically kind of balancing a number of factors. Kind of widening the kitchens in the inside space while also preserving the rear, the landscaping, the trees and the rear of the yard. There's a plant plan and all that stuff. So in context, there is end unit in discussion. There's another end unit next to it and then there's another end unit beyond that, and carefully kind of looking at where they are. Two doors down has built an addition, which is 12 to 15 feet deep, maybe a little deeper. And as part of this project, we didn't want to turn the neighbors into a canyon. So in lieu of going further back, we have the FAR and the depth, but the goal of the project was to preserve that rear open space and landscaping that exists out there. So we didn't go as deep, held it to around eight feet, and but built wider towards the setback where it had less of an impact in the whole in the area in the neighbors community all that stuff. As you can see there we pushed pretty close to the side yard setback from about five feet that widened the rooms that are inside and then the existing form of the house is a you know it's a simple gable. It exists it's not like the gable is front to back. There is a rear flounder that projects off of the gable existing. And so as part of that conceptual massing, we pulled it wider, and then extruded that same flounder form further to the back. That's part of that in the concept of what we were doing. Again, didn't want to create anything disruptive. I think if you go to the, so maybe you should go to the side elevation. Bill, what's that? Yeah, I wasn't blotching when you were flipping that down. Yeah. So, you know, as part of the project, the concept was to mimic the front of the house and kind of keep within the context of the neighborhood. So we mimicked with the materials, the jack arches. The intent is to match the shutters, operable shutters. Kept the freeze that was there. The existing freeze and roof edges is slightly different as that flounder shape existing freeze, and roof edges is slightly different as that flounder shape goes back, where we've essentially mimicked down on what we have to create that same alignment. The roof form, so it's not to overwhelm that gable. Conciously, in a perfect world, there would be taller ceilings in this building. It's built in almost 100 years ago at this point. There's only eight foot ceilings. So we held the ceilings down, held the bearing points down to be on top of the windows, creating that flounder form, but that pushes the ceiling down to where we can align with those, that freeze. And then again, with the same gables, at the time, our attempt was basically to match the brick that was on the existing home, the red brick. I, as part of the review package, it was a comment that an addition should have different character and differentiation from the existing. I will say that what would be proposed, no matter what is gonna have some inter-her inherent characteristic differences. We can't match the brick perfectly. We tried. But the brick that is existing on the building is a size that's not available today. It's like a longer size brick. I think it's the same height, but it's not the longer size brick. The existing building has a great fine joint. It has, I think it's called common bond, where you have the headers every eight courses. We're proposing by the time what we have, it would be a different character red brick. We've selected a sample. It's very similar, but it'll have a slightly different tone. It won't, without a great vine joint, without the header bricks. So it'll have a little variation, the size difference from what is there currently. And discussing with the homeowners, we would be perfectly willing to work with staff and making adjustments to what is proposed if we want a slightly different deprocheted red or a bit of, we discussed a line wash. I'm not saying we would do a line wash, but it's an option. I feel like I've been on a number of discussions in Alexandria where everybody is doing not red. We want more red brick, so I feel compelled to keep it as red brick. But that's just me. So anyway, in the top of the conversation, we mimic the existing house. We mimic the details that were on it, and are willing to work with staff for some small adjustments in materials if that would be agreeable to the board. And then the last topic is the front door. Now, front, it's on the side. The main entry door, it's on the side. The main entry door, you know, it's an existing door. And as with not uncommon old town, it has no cover. And so as part of the rain cover, we added a canopy. The staff comment was that it's a little more Victorian than colonial revival. And I can I can see how that's the case. What we have is kind of, it was a result of several different things. And we don't have enough room on the side yard for a porch. Like there can't have posts, so it had to be a canopy. I think the letted glass is a little different than a, well, I'd be interested, maybe I shouldn't put words in staff's mouth, but I'm assuming it's the leaded glass that's catching a little bit of eye of being not colonial revival, but it is characteristic in that neighborhood. There's a number of houses that have that dyno-tattered, it's not unusual. I think the general just of our approach collectively was kind of a more, a little bit more unique front door, which is not atypical in Old Town. Something that has a little bit of pop to it than your traditional straight up door. I will say the bracket that holds it in a true colonial revival. I'm not 100% sure if I could even John and I were going through trying to figure out if there was a bracket that's colonial revival, but it's not really what we have as a little swirling. So we could work, we were willing to work with staff and some of those finer details if that's appropriate. We didn't select a six panel door. It was a conscious decision to choose a two panel to be a little bit more eye-popping, his owner, that's kind of what they selected they like. So anyway, long roundabout way of we are willing to work with, would be happy to work with staff on some of those issues in terms of keeping the adjusting the front door or the operable shutters, the mass, excuse me, materials. And one of the comments that I will say that we're probably the struggling a little bit is the representation of the Gable versus the House. And our intent in the design process like we were going through is that to keep that Gable prominent. So we do have a 3D, maybe I should have just been looking at that the whole time. Page five. So we showed a 3D to show what the relationship of the, yeah, there you go. Actually, you had a good existing photo that I think was going to a before and after. I definitely had one, but I feel like mine was a little more oblique. I'm going to go ahead and I think you had one of the staff report, then. Yes, it's in the staff report. Thank you. Thank you. My photo was just from a couple of days ago, and it's got all the trees all. Even still have leaves on. So in this one, you can't really see very much of it. That guy right there. It's in the staff report. I think it's in this time report. It's right before the demo. Yeah, there you go. So that's the existing house. You can kind of see where the the red boxes representational of where the addition would go. And then now, sorry, if you want to go to the proposed massing, or the proposed rendering. Is that one? OK. So that's the proposed addition. You can see it basically tucked there in the left to the best we can show it with the matching the masonry and of the main house. I think that's. Oh, so the general just is like I was talking about what we really wanted to do is keep that cable as prominent as possible. So we shoved down the roof. The bearing point to keep with the eight foot ceilings we shove down the roof, the bearing point, to keep with the eight foot ceilings that are in the rest of the house, or approximately plus or minus. And drop that flounder roof that's in the back as a lower pitch. We'd be happy to work with staff on that pitch of that roof in the future and keeping that, making sure that Gable is as visible as possible. I think that's probably too much to say. Thank you. Thank you for the thorough presentation. Great. Are there any move with the board that has questions for this applicant? No. Staying none. Mr. Harris, are there speakers that has questions for this applicant. The uniform's the have from the owners. All right. Would the owners like to make a presentation? Are you guys good with the architects' presentation? I think we're good with the architects' presentation. You need to go to the mic if you're going to speak. Thank you. The station name and address for the record, please. My name is Diane Greist, and I'm making this presentation to correct the pronunciation of my last name, Mr. Conquie. My apologies. Thank you. And my address is 413 Green Street. The one thing that I wanted to draw the board's attention to is in 2017, the Alexandria Times Historical Society published an article on the Yates Garden Houses. And one of the things that they mentioned about the original architect, Mr. Carr, Mr. Edward Carr, is that he wanted the functionality of each town home to satisfy 20th century occupancy. So some flexibility was allowed. The size and placement of windows were determined on specific room use rather than principles of exterior symmetry or alignment. Mr. Carr further named this neighborhood Yates Gardens. And I'd like to emphasize the gardens part of the name. Our intent is to create as little imposition of this structure on the existing lot because the Yates Garden property was intended to have landscaping around each of the houses. We have neighbors on two sides of us each with large extensions. These some of our neighbors have deemed mausoleums. We don't want to create a mausoleum in our Yates Garden House and so we've attempted to adopt a design that poses the least amount of impact on our neighbors allowing them to keep their garden views and allowing us to preserve ours. There are also modifications made that allow the interior of the house to be modified in accordance with modern standards. Currently, the second floor of the house has two very small bathrooms, one that wouldn't even be up to code today. These bathrooms need to be fixed to say the least. And so for the purpose of maintaining the quality of the house, the difficulty in any resale was with the kitchen design and the bathroom design. And our proposition solves a lot of the problems in the interior of the house, which I understand is not part of the bar purview, but I'd like you to understand why the shape is the one that we're proposing, rather than going further back into the garden or a different design. And I would like to say on behalf of my husband and I that we love this neighborhood, we love this house. And the beauty of this house is, and it's character, it's traditional character. And so as we went through each bit of design We did so with the intent to keep as much of the building as possible in the feeling of that traditional design including keeping the gable roof as prominent as possible So I'd like to say thank you for your time today and I would like to continue to work in the spirit of Mr. Car and keep that traditional yet flexible approach. Thank you. Is there anyone else, Mr. Harris? No, that's all. Okay. I guess we'll close the public hearing and move on to or deliberation. Who'd like to begin? Mr. Lions? Thanks. Thanks for coming out and talking to us. I don't really have any questions, but I would say it's much appreciated that you considered your neighbors and you didn't go to our vacations you had to or could and kept that open space because I think it's important. In general, but also just based on even that article that you mentioned. So I certainly fully support the project. Is Miller? Well, I second what Mr. Lyon said. I really appreciate your presentation, viewing your husband's thoughtfulness, and the way you planned the design and consideration of the community and your immediate neighbors. So thank you for that. And I also really appreciate that the addition remains secondary, visually, to the primary property. So again, thank you for that and for your architect's presentation. And I'd love to read that article sometimes, if you, sometime if you would share it with us. I have a question. Thank you. Mr. Adams. I think it's a very nice job. Mr. Fleming presented very well. I like the idea that it's hardly noticeable at its addition. It sort of blends in with the existing original architectural, which is really, in my point of view, a valid design direction. So it's very nice. Thank you. Ms. Downey, you? I like that you're keeping the red brick. I think that's nice. I've discouraged the lime wash. The darker red brick might be nice that we'll recede a little bit from the existing, so I would maybe go a little shade darker if possible. Ideally, the gable should read a little more prominently. The, you had the, what is that like the four-foot depth of the addition? Had that been a single story just for that length that might, it would have helped that facade. Right now it's really protruding from the house and obscuring the end of that addition. I don't know if that was studied. I wasn't quick enough to ask the question. I know it wouldn't change the plan of the first floor. It would reduce the plan of the second floor by that. Is that three feet or something? Is two feet, okay? I knew I had to get up. If it was studied, the plan upstairs to kind of get everything to fit, there is a small bedroom in that area that would be compromised by pulling that wall in, basically that wall puts that bedroom in a position of about seven, and a bathroom at a 70 square foot bedroom already. So like we just couldn't kind of give it any room. And I understand too that having the inset with brick, then now I have to hold it up with steel and it's another problem. So, otherwise, that was minimal. Yeah, we explored having a bay and other opportunities, just, you know, with the canopy and all that stuff. It was kind of the most appropriate solution that we looked at. Mr. Vice Chair. Thank you for your presentation. Well, I mean, I think you've done a nice job. I think perhaps I have a little bit more caution than some of my other board members. I think I would want to see your proposals for the roof line. We often will defer to staff recommendations or ask the staff to work with homeowners on very small matters like the door. But the roof line is, to my eye, you've significantly changed the front of the house, it's the side of the house, but it's the roof line very prominently in the way that the staff did. And to me, I think there might be ways of maintaining that facade of the three windows in the front. I mean, I've looked at the one image of the existing house and seems to me there might be other massing options where you get the same square footage without interrupting that original facade. But if you have to for these square footage reasons and you can't do like a cantilever in the back or anything, yeah. Okay. Personally, it's just me. I would like to see the proposals for the, what you would do to address the roof line, rather than just leave it up to staff. I would say that's, that would be my comment. Thank you. And me. My issue with this rendering is that I agree with, is Donnie, you know, I think I would like to break that contrast a little bit more so I can tell where the addition was added compared to where the new, or the existing home was stops. And I think this rendering is just, it looks like it's all built at the same time. So I think this rendering is just, it looks like it's all built at the same time. So I would like a little more contrast with the brick. I'm not a big fan of the roof line, but I understand the roof line. And I understand your desire to not protrude further into the garden, which I appreciate that as well. And so I think I could be OK thank the staff for their support and support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the support for the can see the side of the house being subservient to the front. Yes, do I like the large cable being prominent? I do. But I understand that historically over time, additions are made, and things are compromised for the functionality of the home. And I don't think this is too much to ask personally. I would still like you to work with staff on a different door and that would be what I have to add. So, board members, does anyone have a motion? I would move to approve items four and five with staff recommendations. There's second. Is there a friendly amendment that someone would like to make to the motion? A friendly amendment would be a staff is recommending a different material, but I think material-wise, are we okay with the brick? I'm okay with the brick. Yeah. It's not the shade of color. To clarify them, can we say differentiation? Just leave it a different change. Right, right. Exactly. And I think I would like to also ask you to work with staff to see if you can improve that roof line. That is. We're treating. I don't know, the roof line and the door. It's part of staff recommendations. It's part of staff recommendations already. Okay, sorry. Okay. Yeah, it's changing now. Okay Door right Okay, so that staff recommendations for the most part with the subtle change of different material as opposed to Different Differentiation Okay Differentiation. Okay. That friendly amendment? Are you okay with that friendly amendment? I'm okay with that. And is there a second? Second. Okay, Mr. Conkey. Yep, sorry. Got me too quickly. Ms. Miller. Aye. Mr. Scott? No. Mr. Adams. Aye. Mr. Scott? No. Mr. Adams? Aye. Mr. O'Neill? Aye. Mr. Alliance? Aye. Mr. Spencer? Aye. Congratulations. Thank you for coming out. Mr. Colkey, what do we have under our other business? We don't have anything under our other business tonight. Tonight, this is do we have under other business? We don't have anything under the business tonight tonight. Tonight, this is all we have. I just point out that our next hearing is on December 18th. What two things back up? We have an appeal to go into City Council on the 14th. Miss Miller will be joining me for a lovely Saturday in this chamber. And then we are our next hearing. Last hearing of the year will be on the 18th and just as a heads up, it's a lengthy docket with a lot of some fairly large cases. And also we have elections that night. And we have elections that night. I would before we, I know we're about to adjourn. I do have a question, a clarification, a procedural question for you. We had a meeting, I don't know a month ago, where we were deadlocked in a three, three vote out of consideration for the homeowners. I changed my vote to a no just to give them an opportunity to appeal or to request a deferral. It's my understanding that we could have as a board chosen to continue the matter and not made a decisive vote on that day. Is that accurate? Yeah. So basically you have a few different options and I apologize for not being here that night. You can, when you hear our case, you can either decide it. If you're deadlocked and you just can't come to decision, you can either continue the case. We did this, this happened with our heritage case as you may or some of you may recall, and you continue it to the next hearing, and in hopes of having basically having a number of board members here and so that we'd have a decision that way. The other option that you had to have is to take no make no decisions, to take no action. In any case that has, there's a zoning ordinance requirement that in case we within 45 days, I believe, is 45 days, of being deemed complete, no action has taken that application is approved automatically. That's what I thought happened. But I think we were informed that we couldn't do that, or that if we didn't take any action that it would be denied automatically. No, it's a good on a madman. Yeah I thought I was terrified of the confusion. Yeah, there was confusion that night and I mean it was clear from the deadlock that Continuation was not going to serve the homeowners interest they wanted to move on had we taken no action I think it would have automatically been you Prove right there was some wanted to move on. Had we taken no action, I think it would have automatically been. No, it proved. Right. There was some confusion by the board. I also just want to tie it in because we will often tell homeowners they have to request a deferral if we're not ready to make a decision. But in fact, homeowners, applicants don't have to request a deferral. We as a board can elect to defer a matter without a request by an applicant. No, you have no you the board the only the applicant can request a deferral they have to request that you think and accept it. Okay, so you cannot take the action of deferring that is not an action that we can take no action though. You could take no action. But what about continuation? The continuation yes you can do that and as long as me that's a deferral and a continuation is similar every very similar I deferral allows the homeowner to amend their application a continuation There's no amendment. You're just not deciding that day Right continuing the main difference here really is isn't the timing right continuation has to be at the next available hearing Okay, so deferral could be months, you know while they while they're app continues on it. Continuation is, it must be at that next event. Okay. I just want to clarify our options as a board, because if in the event that we can't make a decision, and we don't want to have a null vote, a type I'd vote, and the homeowner does not agree to a deferral, we can still dispense of this by, on our own, as a body, continuing the matter, even over a body continuing the matter. Correct. Even over the objection of the applicant. Yes, you can reconsider it at the next minute. At the next hearing, it was just basically what... Basically what happens then? At the next hearing, you pick up the conversation exactly where you left off. Okay, great. I really appreciate that. I just wanted to get that on the record. Thank you, yeah. So thank you very much. I think also when I talk to you about this, I mean, one of us could have abstained, and that would have broken the tie. That is true, yes. So I just think it's important for future times if that happens that, you know, to get it moving along. Yeah, I will say, I mean, like, none of the no votes were prepared to abstain. So that's I as a yes vote changed my vote to a no out of consideration for the homeowners But had I changed my vote to an abstention it still would have failed Right, I'm just saying you can move it along as opposed to being in a deadlock and I would have abstained I just wasn't clear if I could So anyway, just guys it's useful. It was a useful exercise. Yeah, yeah And I will also say that I also knowing another avenue to take to help the applicant. I think we did ask for that information, but like I said, it wasn't. I don't think the staff was very clear that evening on what actions we needed. We needed to hear Mr. Culkey. Now we know we've had clarification. I would just suggest whenever we do our annual training. Yes. The board actions be a topic we cover. I also think I know the homeowners have appealed in this case. I probably will be representing the board in this matter when they are before the city council and I may raise just the procedural confusion as an aspect just to clarify to the city council that there was a little bit of confusion around that issue. So you. So you're. Go. Mr. Chair would you like to talk about the you requested that we reconsider the work. Yeah. So we have just for we've requested that we reconsider this this particular docked item on our next meeting. So you'll see this on the docked on the back. We'll have another discussion about it. So you'll see you'll see doctor. If we have another discussion about it. So you'll see on the doctor for the 18th there will be a doctor item to discuss a potential resension of the denial and would be then immediately followed by additional discussion on that. Yeah, and I'm totally comfortable with that. I mean, I had considered that myself. I think that's appropriate because of the confusion and because we didn't have a full board here on that day. I just also want to be considered the homeowners' desires. I don't want to jerk them around anymore. They, even though there's a lot of disagreement between the board and the homeowners on the design, I think they have really tried in good faith to do everything that they have to do. And I just want to make sure that they have to do. And I just wanna make sure that they are on board with whatever reconsideration we may do because I think we owe that to them. And they are. So before putting this on the docket, because this docket will be going out today tomorrow. Next week, sorry. I'll be going out next week for the 18th. Before doing moving forward with that, I've been back and forth consulting with I spoke into the applicant and said, listen, this is what we would like to do. This is the board has expressed concern about the process and we'd like to give another shot. You know, obviously, we want to make sure that you're comfortable with this before we move forward with it. And I've spoken to them about it and they are on board with it. So we will have a chance on the 18th to the terrific thank you. Okay. So anything else Mr. Colkey? I think that's all I've got. Is Miller a U-R-Bot H-R-Button? I was because I won't. Thank you. I want to be clear that when we make a decision, if there is afterthought and concern about whether we felt proper procedure, then we can reconsider it. So the way it works is that you will need to take a vote to rescind the denial. And it'll have to be a majority to resent it. If that vote fails, and we're done with this topic, and the appeal will move forward. If the vote to rescind passes, then you will basically take it up again. And at that point, you can, for the discuss it. And if you deny it at that point, then they will be proceeding with a, from my discussion with them, they will be proceeding with them, I was an additional appeal at that time. But they've agreed basically to let you guys have another discussion about it. Very similar to how we handled the window project. Correct. This is exactly the same thing as the way we handled the two one given process. And the long run we still turned that one down. Right. And in that case, the board decided, you know, listen, we really need to talk about our window guidelines. And at the end of the day, we we all became much more educated on it and came to the same conclusion, which is, you know, that's fine. I mean, that's an appropriate, basically, you guys, that I need more. We need to talk about this more, and then you came to the same conclusion, which is fine. And they, and you may do that here. I mean, of course, that's tailored to you guys. Anyone else has any other other business? It's a charm. Thank you. I mean this one tonight.