by call the regular meeting of October 8th, Mill Valley Planning Commission to order. We'll do roll call to start. fellow commissioners, if you don't unmute your mics. Commissioner Mackress. Here. Commissioner Yolas. Here. Commissioner Hildbrand. Here. Commissioner Cerengel. Here. Chair Skow's here. Everyone's in attendance. At the beginning of the meeting, we have public open time. This is opportunity for any member of the public to come on up to the microphone, state your name, your address if you wish, and speak on any topic that is not on tonight's agenda. So this is a time to speak on items that are not on the agenda. Anyone wishing to come up from the public, come on forward now. Not seen anyone? We'll close public open time. And I'll call for a motion to approve tonight's agenda. It's all moved. Oh, we have a motion from Commissioner Macrius. Is there a second? Second. Commissioner Yilla seconds. All in favor? Aye. Agenda's approved, 5-0. First item, the agenda is, and I want to make a note, there was an item before we do the first item. There was an item that was slated for tonight, but as it is noted in the agenda, it's been continued to the October 22nd Planning Commission. So if you're here tonight for eight row and way, the agenda was updated today, that item has been continued at the request of the applicant to be moved to the next meeting. So we will not be hearing that tonight. Okay, first item is new business. This is a report from staff regarding the Mill Valley Sales Tax Measure on this November 5th, 2024 ballot, and consideration and possible action on the proposed letter of support. Would you like to present on this item? Thank you, Chair and Vice Chair and commissioners. It's so great to be here this evening. We're actually going to start tonight by showing you a little TV movie, which we've made. So without further ado, why don't we just show it and then we're going to provide a little more context and answer any questions that you've got. Hi everybody, my name is Urban Carmel, the mayor of Mill Valley. And I'm Todd Kusumano, your city manager. Today we want to talk to you about the most important initiative we're undertaking, not just this year, but for many years ahead. Today, your city is in a really great financial and operating position. Our sales tax and our transit and occupancy tax are among the lowest in the county. Our parks and our field are the envy of our neighbors. Your library was voted the second best small library in America. Last year, we reduced over 400 tons of fuel off the hillside oratory due to fire risk. Pensions are often regarded as a huge financial risk for city yet we've done the math. We can weather the doubling of our pension obligations over the next 10 years and still maintain our level of investment in your community. I can go on and talk about our great initiatives with respect to affordable housing, diversity, equity and inclusiveness, climate action plan, all of which are leading efforts within the county. While all of this is really good news and should be a source of pride for everybody in the community, we face some challenges in the years ahead that require some urgent actions. Led by our public works team, we have been assessing our infrastructure needs for the past three to five years. And what we found is that we need approximately 150 to 180 million dollars in investment over the next 10 to 15 years. And what we found is that we need approximately 150 to 180 million dollars in investment over the next 10 to 15 years. This is twice the amount we have available to us today. Why is it important? Our infrastructure protects the public safety and welfare of our community. When you think about our infrastructure, think about it in three pots. The first is public safety improvements, the second is deferred maintenance, and the third is community investment. So let's talk about them. So first with safety improvements, it all starts there, and this is approximately 50% of our investment needs over the next 10 to 15 years. With climate change in the extreme weather events, it has a major impact on our city, in three specific areas. One, the droughts and hotter periods cause major fire issues for our hillsides. In field reduction, in vegetation management is a number one priority for our city. The second is the atmospheric rivers, causing major flooding problems within our city, but also landslides on our hillsides. The third is sea level rise. In the importance of flood mitigation and management to protect our infrastructure not only today, but for the next 100 years. The second investment is related to Ferd Maintenance. The city owns eight civic buildings, and within those buildings, we have years of deferred maintenance. This is approximately 20% of our need. And when you think about deferred maintenance, think about HVAC systems, mold remediation, remodeling for office space, ADA accessible access, foundation issues, roof repairs. We are in need over the next 10 to 15 years to do major investment in all eight civic buildings. The third bucket is community investment. This is approximately 30% of our investment. This is related to the 70 miles of roadway that we have in our city, expanding our sidewalks for pedestrian and bicycle use to make sure that all of our areas within our community are accessible to everyone in our community. It's also related to quality of life, our library, our park and wreck facilities, our playgrounds, our fields. This is what separates our community from all others. And this is something that is a major priority, not only for our community, but your staff. And we're going to work hard to make sure that we preserve that for the next 50 years. We want to develop what we heard from public works and also form a plan for what we should do next. So last July, your city council formed a 15 person citizens advisory panel comprised of seven women and eight men, and they spent four months studying all of these issues. This is some of what we heard. Hello, I'm Jim Peron, hello. What's me is Jerry Kail. We are the co-chairs of the committee. I should start by saying the committee was not a rubber stamp committee. We wanted to find out whether the city had legitimate infrastructure needs. As a result of that, we spent many hours reviewing lengthy city reports, outside consultant reports. We met with the city's finance director, we met with the director of public works, we asked him a lot of hard questions, and we got great answers. The result is that the committee then spent eight meetings, reviewing all the materials, reviewing the consultant reports, reviewing outside consultant reports, and we concluded that the city's infrastructure needs were legitimate. Actually Actually the committee unanimously agreed that the city has between 150 and 180 million dollars in critical infrastructure needs. I'm Jerry K. Hill. I was co-chair with him and I was extremely skeptical about this requirement for funding the infrastructure shortfall. I wasn't even aware that there was one, but after spending the time reading many, many reports, and also talking with independent consultants, both from the tax angle, and also just how other measures have been done, we think that there is a definite need and we think that the sales tax proposition is the best way to go. Hi I'm Kendra Pollock. After looking at the investment need we then held a meeting over how to fund this. We looked at six different ways. Parcel Tax, bonds, TOT, business license tax, real estate transfer tax, and sales tax. It was an exhaustive review. And hi, I'm Hunter Moore. And the city did a great job about lining the infrastructure needs. And the committee at the end of the day looked at all six of those options and thought a bond investment was really not needed. That a parcel tax would not be appealing. The TOT and business tax didn't generate enough income, and so we really only had two options. The transfer tax on the sale of a property, end-or general sales tax. And while there was disagreement among the members as to which of these was preferred, the research clearly showed that voters would prefer a general sales tax. And at the end of the day, that's what's most important, that we generate enough funds to cover the infrastructure needs. The final thing the committee recommended was that there would be guardrails on this measure to protect the taxpayers. The first guard rail is that the money only be spent for actual infrastructure needs. The second guard rail is that there be an oversight committee, independent citizens, oversight committee to review the expenditures and make sure that they are only spent on infrastructure and nothing else. And we did not want this tax to be unending. So we provided for a sunset provision so it will terminate at 10 years. I'm Al Gromet. We also recommended that this tax go to the voters this November. The city has an immediate investment need and we concluded that the time to act is now. I think it's critical that we take care of this deferred maintenance problem which is very significant. We could let it go and then in ten years we're gonna have an emergency we won't have the funds to take care of the problem and the city could be a disaster. We have prided ourselves over the years in planning ahead and that's what this project is. Your City Council discussed the recommendations from the panel and from EMC at Council meetings in December and March. That's why you'll see a ballot initiative in November for 1% sales tax increase. We believe that that will allow us, together with our existing source of funding, to make the investments that we need to over the next 10 years to improve our infrastructure in the ways that we've described. Over the coming months, more information will be coming out on how we precisely plan to spend our investment strategy. For more information, please go to the website, listen on the screen, or contact myself or staff as we look forward to having this conversation with you. We will hold the community form where we can learn more and ask questions. If your neighborhood is interested, we'd be happy to come and visit conversation with you. We will hold a community form where we can learn more and ask questions. If you're a neighborhood that is interested, we'd be happy to come and visit and present this information to you. We want everybody to be as well informed as possible. Thank you so much for your time today and please share this video widely. Okay, I think you can all agree that that was probably the best video you've ever seen at a planning commission meeting. I didn't have to say that a planning commission meeting, but anyway, I added that provider in there. So a couple of things have happened since we did that video. One, we've gotten a lot of endorsements for our plan. In fact, there was no opposition. So when you do a ballot measure, you write an argument for, and anybody who's against it writes an argument against nobody filed any argument against in fact as far as we're aware Nobody is against this this measure nobody's come forward and said we're against this thing is mounting mounting opposition secondly 11 former mayors endorsed it The coalition of sensible taxpayers which you might know as Cost which is a tax watchdog, actually endorsed our measure. Why did they endorse it? Because it's precise, dealing only with infrastructure. It's got oversight and it's got a 10 year sunset on it. That's why they decided to endorse it. They think it's a model ordinance for how you go about doing a tax revenue initiative in a city. So they wanted to endorse it. The Marine Realtors Association endorsed it and the Mill Valley Chamber of Commerce. The organization that represents all the businesses that you think would be most impacted by the saying, actually, where the first organization to come out and endorse it. So it's gotten a lot of endorsements. The second point I wanted to make is, I don't want you to come across or I don't want you to be left with the impression that we are going to tax payers, take the money in and then spend the money and that's all we're doing. That's actually not what we're doing. So this is a combination of initiatives that we're doing. One, the sales tax will increase are funds that we have available for infrastructure from $6 million per year to $10 million. So it'll add $4 million. But the second thing we're doing is we are rationalizing our operations internally. We are doing the proverbial belt tightening and it's significant. So Todd can talk more in detail about this since he's the person that's actually implementing this. But just as an example, the fire consolidation will probably save the city on the order of about $300,000 per year. We have other consolidation that we can do within the city combining departments and rationalizing how we do things, do things more effectively that could add as much as another $600,000 per year and saving. So we are trying to do everything we can to try to make ends meet and try to do this in the most sensible way. The final point I want to just make is the whole purpose of doing this and as planning commissioners I think you can appreciate this more than anybody, we are literally fixing the roof so that the roof doesn't leak and we have to replace the rafters and get mold and do all the remediation. In other words, a dollar spent today saves us $5 in the future. So that's the purpose of doing this thing. It's to get ahead. It's to play offense. It's to do the things that we need to do to kind of prevent future liability and the liability can be financial and also can be, of course, in the form of human life. So when we talk about safety, one of the things we're talking about is landslide risk. And those of you who have been in Movali a few years will remember in 2005, I believe it was, when the hillside gave way and unfortunately a person lost their life. We also recently had a hillside on Off of Miller Avenue, and you've seen it, right? When you go out on Miller Avenue, right above the Montessori School, previously the mortuary, right? That hillside gave way. So it's preventing things like that from happening. With climate change, we are getting more atmospheric rivers. We're getting more periods where we get multiple rainsome stacked on top of each other and you can see it in the roads. When you see those dashed lines around on the pavement, that shows that the road is actually subsiding. This is something new. This is not something that we've had before. So we have to kind of adapt to our environment and we need to kind of get ahead of the things that are occurring in our environment that cause risk to the city. So those are my comments that I want to make. Did you want to add anything to that? And you could also ask this. OK. So we'd like to turn over to you guys to ask any questions that you might have. Thank you very much for the video and coming in person to present and answer our questions. Are there any questions that the commission has for mayor and city manager? Commissioner Hillbran. This isn't exactly a question, but I remember having, you brought this up a year or so ago, and the first reaction that I would have had too was all the windfalls from the sales of real estate that had been, you know, the fact that that was the first place you looked, right? And I see from all the staff report, all the cons from doing that. But it's curious that, you know, you look at that, you know, houses that were listed at 1.8 suddenly became 2.4 or 2.5 in a sale and then that becomes the comp then for the whole neighborhood and it seems like the real estate industry and we have so many real estate offices around the town is helping to make housing less affordable by running up the prices and the fact that there's no way to get any revenue without harming our senior citizens who, as you mentioned in here, are house rich and cash poor. And it's just conceptually the idea of somehow taking from those extreme profits and and leveling things out because the people that are making that additional $500,000 are are doing that based on having been in that community for a long time. So I don't know I struggle with the fact that they're that that didn't work. But I understand why it didn't work. And so that was just one comment. But I get it after reading that. But I wondered, do people, this is my question. Do people really understand that that sales tax is not really going to just apply to purchases that they make in the town of Mill Valley, right? It's not just going to be the local stores. It's going to be when you purchase something, it's based on your residents, and if you purchase it, you know, then there can be some significant things that you purchase that extra 1%. You know, that'll hit people over time. But it's, you know, that's the only way you're really getting that revenue, because it can't just be based on going to the coffee shop and some of those other local things. Do you think everybody kind of understands that it globally, someone buys a car through somewhere, and that sales tax is 9.25, not 8.25? Yeah. I think that's a question that we've gotten about Internet sales and you're right. That does apply to Internet sales as well. So that will definitely impact everything that you buy online that's delivered within the city. Here's the other thing. So first of all, I'll just say that going into this process we had I don't want to say a bias but we were leaning towards doing the transfer tax. We just thought that was a more progressive way of doing it. There are roughly 250 homes and apartments sold every year in Mill Valley so you compare that to you know the 14,000 people that live here. That's a pretty select group and as you say it's a people at the point of liquidity They suddenly have gotten a windfall from selling property that seems like the right time to sell and a 1% transfer tax One it generated more money than a sales tax Two the average over-ask is 10% so you're basically saying, I'm gonna take 1% of that 10%. So, you know, people making a lot of extra money on their sale of the property. So that's why we're kind of leaning in that direction. In order to implement that, you had to do two things. You had to change the legal definition of the city. That's complicated. And then you had to institute this transfer tax, right? So it was complicated. The city of Belvedere also went down this process. They also failed. So we didn't want to go too far down this thing after it pulled poorly and say we're still going to try to pursue this thing because we think it's the right way to go about doing it. When it pulled poorly, we just said this is important. We got to get these improvements into the city. So we're going to go, we're going to be a bit expedient, we're going to be a bit practical, we're going to do the thing which is going to kind of generate the revenue that we need to do. That's how we got there on that. Here's the surprising thing that I've learned. So take a wild guess, how much sales tax, total sales tax revenue, sorry, total revenue from retail sales. Do you think there are in a city of Mill Valley? What do you think total retail sales are in the city of Mill Valley? So this is a town of 15,000 people, right? So do them out. How many, you know, what do you think average person, man, woman, and child, you know, spends in a year in Mill Valley? $400 million is our total sales revenue at a gross level in the city of Moveli. So if you do the math, every man, woman and child is spending like $29,000. Every single year. So every man, woman and child is probably not spending $29,000, right? That tells you that a lot of people are coming into town and spending money, right? So, you know, one way of looking at this thing, yes, it hits residents. By the way, it doesn't hit groceries. It doesn't hit certain health care products. So if you're literally living paycheck to paycheck and you're spending your money at the grocery store, it's not impacting you. So because food is not taxed. But we are taxing people that are coming into town that are going to, for example, the corner bar or going to one of the other places in town that are very popular now. So it's equitable in that respect, right? Basically, the people that are using our services, driving on our roads, right, going to our buildings, right? Those are the ones that are going to be paying for the tax as well. You know, the problem with the tax, this is the problem problem with attacks. Somebody's got to pay it. It means you got to choose who's going to pay it, right? So, but somebody at the end of the day has got to pay it. So, we want to be really careful in how we spend this money. We're going to be very precise in how we do this thing. We're going to make sure that it's spent in a way that's going to have the biggest impact. after 10 years, this thing ends no matter what, after 10 years. And a future council, future city manager, you know, is going to have to come and say, you know what, this was successful, let's continue it, let's sell it to the voters, or you know what, we didn't really succeed. And voters don't want it to continue. And I think that's really important. Hope that that's very important. Great, thank you. Any other questions? Commissioner MacKris? I've got an observation that sort of turns into a question. First of all, you'll learn we have a lot of these here at the planning commission. I remember this from the plan. Yeah, I'll make it snappy though. I think first of all, you've done a very good job of explaining the need. We obviously need infrastructure to be maintained and the money has to come from somewhere. I personally understand that I do have a concern about the planning commission endorsing something. When we are, first of all, we're political appointees. We're deliberately sheltered from the political process for good reason. That we want to make decisions for the community without thinking, am I going to get reelected and all the sort of pressures that the city council faces all the time. I think it's good to remove the sorts of issues that the Planning Commission has to deal with from those pressures. And so to me it seems entering into the fray on a tax measure like this is in conflict with that intent for the Planning Commission. So I have a hard time not with the measure, you if it just me person I think we're all free to endorse things as individuals but I have a hard time as the institution doing that and I wonder if you have some sure you thought about this yeah so we're going around and we so the city has got six different commissions as you're aware and we've basically done this presentation you know to five I believe, and we've basically done this presentation to five, I believe, right? And we are basically seeking approval and endorsement or not, right, from each one of those. So the planning commission can choose to not endorse this measure. But we wanted to inform everybody the city council unanimously agreed that this was a need and endorsed it and put it forward. And we're asking whether the commissions that we've gotten the city also want to do that. And there is a nexus for planning because you are responsible for our built environment and having the structure around your built environment, for example, you're doing housing element and you're going to increase the number of housing units in the city that requires an upgrade in your infrastructure in order to service that. So there's a nexus with what you do, right? It's got relevance to what you're trying to accomplish. And that's true of all of the different commissions that we're talking to. There's a nexus with all of them. So maybe that's a way of thinking about, you know, whether this is appropriate or not. Does it help you achieve what you need to do as a planning commission? Great. Any other questions or comments? Mayor, the same initial? Let me ask a question if I could do so. Yeah, sure. Commissioner Kelly. Councillor Kelly, maybe you can speak to our role with regard to interpreting and legislating on policy matters with respect to the general plan, not just the housing element, you kind of in furtherance of Eric's question. So the commission's role is advisory with respect to any kind of legislative matter before you that say for example a general plan policy which decision rests with the City Council. So but there are discretionary items so by and large, the majority of your work program rests with design reviews. And discretionary reviews that are limited to planning commission approval. So part of that is actually under state law. For example, like a rezoning, a general plan amendment, our advisory to the council, council's a legislative body that takes action on land use policy. But day-to-day discretionary planning and zoning applications essentially rests with the Planning Commission. Appealable to the City Council. so in terms of appeals, the final decision rests with the City Council. So, if I may, it reminds me quite a bit of a legislative push. There was maybe six, seven, eight years ago for affordable housing, creation of affordable housing trust fund, and how to fund that with the fees. And we were not the body that could enact the legislation the City Council was, but we very strongly deliberated it, created a recommendation, and then sent that up to the City Council that ultimately passed it. And so while the voters would be the legislative actor here. I view our role as being similar and that we are advising by either recommending or not recommending this measure to the voters. Anyone else have any thoughts? I do have a few questions for these folks. You wanna go, come here. First of all, thank you for all your efforts behind this measure. I know it's taken a lot of time and effort to get to this point. And thank you for being proactive. And I totally agree in general with the concept about spending a dollar proactively today. I can save 3, 4, or 5 tomorrow. So thanks. And I know it's in the community's interest that you're doing this work. Just curious, any other state and federal sources available to supplement some of this? Yes, so good question. So we just got, for example, so we are in a, what's called a flood zone, JPA with the county that deals with water coming off the mountain essentially right in the city. And that organization just appropriated to the city over $3 million to deal with some of the issues that we want to deal with with respect to flooding in the city. We just got a $1.2 million grant to study and do engineering on a sea level rise project that we want to enact for the city. Every year we get money from the Transportation Authority of Marin, which is a board that I sit on, that funds our road infrastructure in our city. So there are a number of state, federal and county resources that we tap on a regular basis to get funds to do all of the work that we're doing and we will be aggressive at trying to get more of that. I mean some of this money that I've just mentioned that's new like we have not gotten that money in the last we've gotten that money in the last 12 months we have not gotten that money in the last 10 years've gotten that money in the last 12 months, we have not gotten that money in the last 10 years. So we are aggressively going after every single source of money for this. One thing that you should know, Todd in the video says $150 to $180 million, right? But if you do the math, we're basically going to build $100 million, right? Because that's what you can do over the next 10 years. Maybe we can stretch it with our cost saving to 110, 120 million dollars, right? But we're still going to be short. So we're going to have to shake everything to make this thing work over the long term. And I think just to add to it, when you think about how that $10 million rolls up again, $2 million is after you pay for from the general fund, our services, which are our employees and benefits, right? Two million dollars has left over, annually, on average, to go towards infrastructure. Two million from grants and restricted funds like the gas tax and grants a year. And then two million dollars approximately from the MST tax, right? That goes primarily to vegetation management, fire safety in our roads. So we're at six. So this will deliver the remaining four. The other piece, as the mayor said, we have $18 million in flood control projects and we have never really had a serious conversation about adaptation. Like once we get everything downstream, if we do it right, on that 18 million number, what do we do when it hits the Eroyo Creek? You know, and it goes out. We have to have a plan. And so we were closely with Flood Zone 3. We have $3 million over the next five years. There will be a following $3 million request for the following five years. So that $3 million delivers six projects that go downstream focusing really on the Sycamore area as we go. And then the second piece is the $1.2 million for climate adaptation to really start to identify three adaptation projects downstream, speaking to king tides and sea level rise, and bring them to a 30% design, because then what it's gonna happen, it opens up millions of dollars of funding for us to start to, and so that piece will help us engage the community over the next two years, identify three projects that we can come doing agreement on, and then bring them to 30% design. So that's a huge part of what we're doing in the other piece that the mayor mentioned. It's tightening our pitch traps so to speak, but really it's pivving, right? What is being asked of us? So especially for this group here, in all of our boards and commissions and staff, what is being asked of us, how do we set the stage for our employees in good times and bad so when you have a fiscal downturn every five to seven years, we're not freezing positions coming out of COVID or back in the 2010s, we still are trying to fill positions on the planning building side across the board. We don't want to do that. What we're doing is we're re-shuffling. When it makes sense to two questions. When you can maintain or improve services over the next decade and on. You can do it more efficiently and save cost. We're going to bring that to council for consideration. We check the box with southern marine fire. It enhanced our services day one and over the long term. We saved three to four hundred thousand dollars from last fiscal year to this one. As you start to go out the decade, it'll be a seven-figure number of savings and will have improved service. The next piece is admin. So as we start to get retirements over the next couple of years, we have an opportunity through attrition to merge our human resources, our training, our admin team, our finance team, be more efficient, be better, but actually do it at hundreds of thousands of dollars of savings. We're also doing it with, we're going to have retirements within SASM and public works operations. You're going to see some merging there. As you start to do the math with each department where we have those opportunities, it is going to open up a fund of about $600,000 to $1 million. And then the question for us is how much of that should go to infrastructure? But how much of that should go back to the departments that need it so we can lean in and really do what's being expected of us from the boards and commissions and staff. And so there's a lot of good work being done, and so the difference between us and other cities isn't we can't make payroll, we have a deficit, we need to tax you, we're trying to improve and really solve problems moving forward. Great. Thank you. Also Mayor Cormale, you mentioned an oversight committee in the video or in your comments. Can you tell us how that committee is going to be selected? Who will be on it? Yes. So we have to see if this sales tax passes first, right? And then once hopefully it does, we'll basically set up some guidelines for this oversight committee. But ballpark, you know, probably five members, they will probably do four-year terms. You know, we'll have to do it so they're staggered. You know, you get a variety of people on just like we do for our, you know, other commissions rights, so we'll do a selection process, we'll interview people. But, you know, we wanted to have teeth. We wanted to have people on there who are going to be financially astute, that are going to be inquisitive and potentially critical, and who are willing to weigh in on the projects that we're funding. So not just what we've done, but also what we're going to be funding. Okay, great. And then last question, whoever wants to answer. I'm just kind of curious about how you will let out the various scopes of work that are described here. You know, RFQ or P process, whether there's going to be competitive bidding, how do you optimize resources and save as much money as possible while getting all this work? Yeah, so we do this already, right? So all of our road products are put out to bid, right? We get sealed bids back, we open them up, we choose the best provider, right? So we're just going to be basically continuing that whole process of going out and getting the best provider at the, not necessarily the lowest cost, but certainly competitive that also provides the right service. And there's a curious in general. I know there's so many different scopes of work contemplated here, but how many bids on in general do you end up getting back? On average. Three to seven. You usually have your same three to four players and you'll get some extras. The other thing that we're doing and it's a two-pronged approach. One, we have projects that we've learned when we outsource project management on these projects. They're not delivered in the quality that we would like it to. Right, community engagement, and how do we do that? And also, on average, it's $200,000 more expensive to contract out project management. And so what we've started to do on the public work side is higher project managers in-house and so we're already staffing up and we also have expertise and accessibility we have architects on the on the team and so we're starting to like think about if we're going to do a project money matters and if we can save $200,000 annually you know not outsourcing and having that inside philosophy and staff expertise. That'll be really important moving forward, especially when we're doing multiple projects. Thank you very much. Okay, great. What I propose now is just do a poll and if it's something that looks like there's broad support on the commission here to sign this letter as is. Then we would do that if anyone's got, if it doesn't look like that is the case, and there's people who have edits they wanna make, they could suggest those edits and we could discuss them. So just kind of show a hands, is this something we're willing to support as a commission? Okay, looks at the letter as is, looks good. Okay, great. Well then I think should I call for a motion? Should we do this like we do any other approval? Or the motion would be to recommend to bring this letter back for us to sign recommending an endorsement of measure L. Okay, so just it looks as though all five commissioners are supporting endorsing measure L with this letter as written. Okay. All in favor of doing that. Five oh. Okay. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Mary Carmel, Mary Carmel, City Manager, Kuyinbano. I really appreciate it. It's great seeing both of you. Thanks for your continuing work on this. Thank you. Have a snack any time. Great. Thank you. That brings us to the public hearing. Do we need to take quick break? Everything good? Push through. Okay. First item is a designer view application for 120 East Manor Drive. And I'll give our planner, Ms. Johnson, a moment to sit down. And would you like to kick off a staff report? Thank you. Good evening, Chair Skiles and fellow commissioners. I'm Michelle Johnson, Associate Planner and Project Manager for the following design review application for a substantial remodel in addition to an existing single family residence and the Warner Canyon Kite Hill neighborhood. The Planning Commission provided direction to the conceptual design on July 23rd, 2024 during a study session. So I'm going to do a little bit of a, we're going to revisit some of the, from the prior staff report, what the existing conditions of the site for some of those that may not have been present at the study session. The existing conditions are an uphill lot with a unique rectangular shape configuration, shorter in depth than in width. To end them on-site parking, under 13 feet long and 13 wide concrete driveway with a 21% slope supported with concrete retaining walls, wood shake stringles with wood overhangs and two raised redwood decks, off the second level, one of which encroachcers into the 15 foot required Yard setback landscaping includes few scatter tree shrubs low-line vegetation The project is located in the woody and very high severity zone Located at the end of a cul-de-sac with a average slope of 52% The next slide is a neighborhood map that shows the context within the surrounding neighborhood as shown on sheet A70 of your attachment to project plans. Neighborhood Massing Study indicates multiple adjacent projects that have similar existing conditions with two story additions and garages at the street level. At the July 23rd, 24 study session, the planning commission provided the following input and direction, suggesting that a storm drainage study needed to be provided to ensure that there no drainage erosion issues downhill to address the mass and height of the existing retaining walls, the verticality massing the potential for light box effect and noise, the overall massing of the home, the need for a more robust construction management plan, potentially minimize earthized earthwork however the planning commission stated that the existing the proposed site work was consistent with what has been approved for similar projects. The design aesthetic in regards to color material and finer design. The glazing for the windows and respect to the light box effect, and the support for natural grass, the previous proposal included 900 square foot of artificial church, and the request for solar panels either on the roof or information that discussed possibilities of incorporating the solar into the windows. The applicant plans are subsequently revised to address the comments and direction received at the study session. The applicant summary of the design changes are included in attachment three and in the process. The applicant's summary of the design changes are included in attachment three and include the following. The grading plan was updated with a conceptual store water plan and reviewed by department of public works. The roof deck was removed including the elevator and the stair access. The garage was moved back towards the house reducing the massing. As a result, the two pine trees will remain and the 900 square foot, an artificial lawn, is going to be replaced with a 500 square foot living lawn and pervious pavers, patio, and spa. The higher retaining wall adjacent to the driveway has been removed. The entry stairs pulled back from the property line. The driver's office is a legal lawyer. The driver's office is a legal lawyer. The driver's office is a legal lawyer. The driver's office is a legal lawyer. The driver's office is a legal lawyer. The driver's office is a legal lawyer. The driver's office is a legal General Plan and municipal code bindings in regards to setbacks, height and FAR. I've included some drawings also included in the staff report on the on my left shows the design from the 723 study session and the modifications to the front rest west facade. Oh, absolutely. Thank you. Great. We have the prior project plans and staff report and meeting minutes are also included in your packet. This is the side north elevation drawings, side south, and rear east. This is an indication of what the previous service area is. As you can see in the staff report, the existing is 6,873 square feet, which is 71% of the lot. Proposed as 7,282 square feet of pervious surface, which is a 75%. Here is the cut and fill diagram provided by the applicant. I had reached out to the applicant regarding the total off haul. As you you can see it's consistent with what was in the previous submittal, given the modifications and pushing back of the home farther underneath the house, it didn't change the proposed off-haul of 168 cubic yards. Staff finds that the revised project design addresses the comments raised by the commission and achieves a good balance given the lot constraints, slope and second story addition. It's consistent with the general plan, single-family residential land use, development standards for the RS-10 zoning designation for height setbacks FAR and lot coverage, consistent with the single-family residential design guidelines with consideration to site design, building design, landscape design and sustainability, as addressed in the findings for approval and exhibit A. As of today, four letters of concern were provided to the Planning Commission with concerns on on street parking during construction, road closures and egress and ingress. Staff's recommendation to the Planning Commission is that you find the project categorically exempt under sections 15301 and 15303 of the California Environmental Quality Act and approve the design review application based on the testimony and an evidence in the record and the findings in Exhibit A and the conditions of approval and Exhibit B. Are there any questions? Great, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Any questions for staff at this time? Commissioner Millis. Yeah, just a couple questions, Michelle. Thank you very much for your presentation. Really helpful to see that and some of those comparisons. You know I'm sure it's in here somewhere I could do the math but I'm just wondering do we have the lock coverage percent somewhere maybe I'm I believe it's on the site data table. I have the numbers I just and I could, but I just wonder if you have that off hand. And then I was also looking for the FAR. Again, I've got the numbers. I did not see the actual ratio. I don't have the percentage of the math. You asked her next question. We'll keep going. Um, question about the, uh, the conceptual storm water plan. Do you have that that you can show? Give me one second. I had it up. Lot coverage is 61%. 61%? Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Then don't forget that. I did. That's proposed versus allowed. Never mind. Give me just a second. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's on 20 25% okay thanks go Yeah, for us is like what is Skiles doing up there? You're not gonna be on the oversight committee for measure L Yeah, are you sure you haven't in my TV exactly? That's the guy with the MIT Okay, and then yeah, we're looking for that plan still. I am. Give me one second. It's a little wonky. Let me see if I can flip it. So I'll just kind of ask the question. We'll search around here. I mean, I understand the idea. And I think it's great whenever we see a proposal that's got more pervious surface going on than the existing condition. But I didn't see, thank you. And maybe others who read these plans better than me can speak to it, or Maybe you know it, Michelle. If there were any, you know, the stormwater retention area, I mean, I guess it's conceptual, so it's hard to know what's actually going to happen there, but I just wanted to know if there were actual technologies or, you know, basins that disperse water that I didn't see it mentioned here per se. So we can ask the applicant that as well. I'm going to refer to the applicant. And also if you look at the conditions of approval, it's also part of one of the requirements that they'll need to provide that in the building permit process. And the FAR is 0.3. Yeah, I said, yeah, I'll ask the applicant. Okay. 0.3 FAR. Any other questions, Commissioner Ullis? Again, I can ask the applicant on this one too. It sounds like they pushed the garage further back. Do we have a sense of how much further back? It cuts that back. I'm going to refer to the applicant. Okay. And that's it for the first staff. Thank you. Any other questions for staff? OK. Let's bring the applicant up. Come on up. You have 10 minutes to a presentation. And then we'll probably have some questions for you afterwards. OK. Thanks. All right. Well, thank you guys. I really appreciate that we had that study session. I think it was nice. We had a lot of time. So we had a lively discussion and I think a lot of good stuff has come from it. And I think, you know, my wife and I are very happy with the, where are with it. And I hope you guys see too that I think it's in a much better place than when I brought it in before. Which one do I do is? No. Which one do I do is? No, just wait. No. Sorry. Right and left, is that the one I do? What I'm going to do is just really focus on those changes and it'll answer some of the questions that you've been asking. I think, you know, one of the biggest one obviously is to remove, you to remove the stair tower up and the elevator that went up there and change the mass scene of the cube on the right a little bit. And generally reduce the materials down to one singular material to kind of quiet it down and make a little bit more streamlined. And so what you're seeing here is on the lower right is the result of stepping down the roof edges and doing a sloped roof on the building, eliminating and just having the stair be the center section of it now, which is a much smaller massing. And then some of the other things, sorry, we talked about the guard railing and stuff to kind of knock down the amount of glazing, those are all sliding windows and doors, so they're actually become nice, you know, Juliet balconies with their flesh with the building. You can see the solar panels on the roof. Went and did some research and realized that solar panels do pay off the cost of making them in a couple years. So after that, it's all free, free energy. So I'm on board with that. And then looking at the kind of the base and all of the concrete that was being exposed before, even though it was planted to be planted, thought it'd be a nicer to add some stone kind of in the color of the earth that's there on the site, which is kind of a nice limestone almost color. And the biggest thing is on the lower right one here is eliminating this upper retain walls and letting the kind of natural landscape come in down around it. That really dropped the massing what you'll be seeing on this shoulder here on the right. Other than that the mass on the left and everything is pretty much left as is. This is just showing before and after as far as that garage approach. So what I was able to do was pull the garage in and the reason there's no more excavation. I think we took it back three feet so now that instead of it had a stair that kind of came out around. It's a nice clean garage but what got reduced was the uncounted basement space that was there before so we don't need it so we just, excuse me, pulled the garage back in under the house further and so that to helps increase the massing of that garage. You can see we also pulled down the top suggested to lower the planter so it's a much lower expression for that garage massing. I think that's most of the stuff in this view. Some kind of street view changes. You can see the upper one again where that garage and masking kind of popped up. And these are straight from the city session images. And so it's side by side comparison versus the lower one. You don't probably see the much the masking for the stair tower and all that I'd use to you do see it peaking up there from this view. But that's obviously been eliminated and we've added some sun shading for that glazing above that area This is kind of a little bit higher view kind of seeing the massing of comparison of the two obviously a much quieter expression on the lower one You know the upper one was fun, but you know maybe not for mill valley as we talked about You know, it's a little bit quieter and a little bit more traditional here. And I think it'll be a very modern house, but at the same time, I think, have its massing that kind of works with Mill Valley more. You can see the difference in the stone cladding and out and went up and now that stair just goes kind of straight up and that's where we were able to keep the trees that we had had to remove before and pulled everything in from the property line further as well. And then this is just kind of looking above the massing of them. You can see quite a difference on the left side of the building. The roof is going to be an asymmetrical that I call it a moon riot. It's kind of meant to be over the kind of master bedroom area where you'd be able to kind of look up at night and see the moon stars. And then this is just a little bit of comparison. Not at the existing street level. You can see that long big driveway that goes up that we're eliminating and filling in. And you can see there's a lot of stuff kind of going on in the area where this addition is going to be, which I think is going to be a little bit kind of a cleaner kind of expression there from that point. And then, and on, oh, this is a little bit just kind of showing, you know, we talk about the light box effect. And I get it, you know, when you're in a kind of a narrow canyon, but this is kind of looking back across from the hills, across the valley. This is a very wide part of Mill Valley. So I think even though we've mitigated it with the tinting and some of the shading that we're doing, it isn't something that's very close to anybody that is looking right into the windows. And now in honor of the Mill Valley Film Festival, I too have a movie. How do I hit play? Here I'm not sure. I don't know. Oh no, how do I get it to play? Oh there it is down there. You got it. You know I want to do this because elevations don't tell a lot of story, a lot of times, and when you fly around something, you really kind of get a little bit more sense about what does it really feel like as you're kind of moving around this building? What does it feel like from the street level? Going up and just kind of seeing the massings of the building and the landscape, you can see the massings of the building and the landscape. You can see the grass area there now that it's going to be a real grass. You can see the lowered shoulder on the garage. You kind of get this nice still form of this massing on the corner. And then from above the looking down on it, what are the neighbors see from above? And seeing that it's really tucked down low and it's really not going to really affect anybody's view that's up behind us as we're keeping it all the same height as the existing structure. So anyway, again, thank you guys for your time and welcome many questions and comments. Thank you very much and I appreciate that video. That was a very nice touch. Any questions for the applicant? Commissioner McGrath, kick it off. I got one, not I was not able to attend the study session so I'm going to limit my comments but I was curious what have you done to engage the neighbors to let them know what you're doing and try to get their feedback? Yeah, we had a meeting at the site and invited the neighbors there and got some really good feedback. Totally 100% get and understand like anywhere. Construction, traffic, parking, that's a deal. I actually have my contractor here today, Tina, with Builder Girl, and she could answer any of the questions about that. But I think there's things that, you know, she's done a lot of construction here in Mill Valley, and there's ways we can kind of mitigate that, and we'll talk about that. So we had a meeting at the house, we showed them what we proposed, and it was probably a generation before the one I brought here to the study session, but it was basically the same kind of basting in the same house. And again at that it was questions, you know, where's the parking because you know it's a tight area in there and so that was kind of the biggest concerns I think we heard from anybody. And then one person didn't get invited so we had invited them down the one actually one of the most important ones which is the one right behind us and we invited them down, one of the most important ones, which is the one right behind us, and we invite them down to have a private meeting with them and show them our plans. Okay. Good, thank you. Many other commissioners with questions for the applicant. I do, but commissioner, I'll go after the architects if they have any, and if not, then I'd like to. Doesn't look like Greg has any, can I? Okay. I have comments, but you'll see the comments for deliberations. I'll do those either. You're just questions at this time, because you're y'all, do you have any questions? I do not have any questions. Nope. Okay, I've got a few questions. So just, and I hope it can be a little more of a discussion, but I'm just curious, do you had the metal screen and I know you're in that kind of line of work before and I know you've got some metal bronze here now? How do you feel about that now versus what you had before? Do you regret removing the kind of this? No, not really. I mean, I think if this house was somewhere else, you know, if it was down in LA or something like that, it would probably would. But I think it's still going to have, it has some nice things going on with it that'll still be very modern house. I like the massing of it and stuff now. My wife, as I said, loved that we removed the spare tower. She wasn't good with it. I think it's a good mass and a good color. Look, so the metal to me, I mean there's high rises that have been out there 50 years and have metal panel on them, they pretty much look the same. The idea that this is almost impervious to fire, it'll never need a roof, it'll never need paint it. I say never, I mean, but it'll look like this. And we have a lot of projects we use our metal. And we've been doing this for like 20 years. And it looks like the day we put it up. So it's just almost a zero maintenance house. And we talk about it in a woofie zone and the idea that anything you can do to take anything away with wood or any places embers can catch. It's a very clean form on the outside that, I hope it never comes to that, but I think it would do well in any kind of problem. No, I haven't heard about lifespan wise that it will last a long time. The carbon intensivity of it seems quite high though. I mean, you get to your line of work and you speak to that. Yeah, I hope that's now we use, we can use a 100% recycle aluminum, which is great. But if you think about replacements of things, and the carbon footprint of that, it's actually painting, etc. They serve like an long run, right? As far as the light box effect, I saw the tinted window spec, and I think that'll help, you know, UV on the inside, like box a little bit on the outside. But I guess I just want to talk about landscaping and texture and, you know, what can be done to soften a little bit perhaps. Can you, you know, can you go back, I guess my main question is, are you going to lose any of the trees that are on the frontage right now? No, that's a existing pine that's going to stay and no, we'll only be adding trees. Can you go to the very first image you showed in your presentation? So the vegetation or the landscape plan doesn't show the addition of any plans with trees that is that you've got a number in your renderings here tonight. So I guess I'd like to understand which are actually adding because I mean just for context this house stands out as much as probably any house on that entire hillside that you know there is that tree but the house is going to rise above almost all of your trees and it's going to be very very prominent and we all talked a lot about the light box effect the last time we were here so I'm just trying to understand if there's a possibility to add some more trees at that upper level or what you're preserving is like I like to understand and what can be added. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no 100%. I mean look, you know, I'm sure that we love trees and trees provide shade too. And so, you know, the idea of knowing that exactly what the landscape is for this house, it's hard to know until you kind of get, build it, and you see it, and you kind of live there and stuff. But we do have plans for adding trees, especially in the areas we're going to be doing the new grading and all of that. Along the back, probably not so important for the trees, but again, this probably isn't a good representation of what you're really seeing there. There are the trees that I explained that kind of been taken away, so you could see what's beyond them. But maybe if you look at... Yeah, no, actually, there are two new Japanese maples that I'm actually seeing. But they're both at that. Well, one's on the, I guess, Western elevation, and then one appears to be below the lawn, and you know, maple's grow to 15 feet, so I don't think it's really gonna do much to either provide privacy to you or others, or mitigate that lantern effect. And while I know you've got some metal screening there too, I would say it's on about a third of the windows, two thirds or more are exposed. And obviously the third that it's on are only come up to three or four feet high or something like that. Maybe you can tell me a little bit more. I mean, we would love to add a lot more trees and we probably would do that. I know that even up on that edge up there, I know what the neighbors, that was where the concern neighbor had the one that's up behind us on that corner there when they're out on their deck. They can look down and see kind of this side of the house and into the house and all of that. And so the idea of up on the left side of adding more trees to screen that, that's not going to do anything for the light box effect. No, it's real. Yeah, it's more the... But what's that? What's that? What's that? What's that? What's that? I mean, are you concerned about people across or who does it affect exactly? Yeah. You know, however many hundreds of people that live down in the valley and across the valley You're on the other side. So you're saying that some more land. And just, we're not picking on you here. Oh, no, no, no. It comes up on every house that's on a hillside. Yeah, especially ones that have very little landscaping. Yeah, and especially ones in tighter canyons, I can imagine, it's definitely a problem. Yeah, I mean, I would be happy to have had many more trees. And we probably will when we kind of really start living there and stuff and doing that. But we'll probably have the landscaping done. I know that for the most part there was a lot of landscaping in it. And so what I did add was some trees like the Japanese maple here in the front. But yeah, I'm not opposed to adding more trees in front of it at all. Okay. And more looking at the salvation and maybe this is a good one to do that. You know, there were a number of people at last time commissioners who suggested last time stepping back that front element that comes out that is so tall and comes out so close to the road and putting a, you know, basically a balcony there to help it step up. It seemed like there was plenty of space to do that. That bedroom looks quite large there. I'm just curious to know why you didn't consider doing that. That large, that bedroom, but the time you have to put a master closet in the master bath, it's only I think 12 foot deep, but like the width might be a little bit more than you need. But the depth, by the time you get enough room for a master bed and then you get your sinks and then kind of the showers and toilets, you know, you look at that floor plan. There's not a lot. I mean, I could look at that. I don't know if, I like the massing as well as for it to be stepped like that. It kind of always had this image of it being a nice kind of volume, singular volume. Yeah. Okay. I want to keep going but actually before we do, you mentioned you do a division putting a number of trees in here like to address the light box effect. Light box effect. Do you where do you think you might be able to put a tree that can actually help help with that on that primary you know offending if you call it that southern elevation. I think all the way along it. Where? Can you point or I guess, use a laser if you have one or down below, but would they rise up? They how tall do they need to be to actually, you know? How tall is that? Well, what do you concern more about the light going down to people below or going across the canyon? Because if it's the people below, then they don't have to be so tall. I think it's mostly across the canyon. He'll see it. Well then you've blocked the view. Look at the trees. Look at every home on that hillside almost all that have a lot of trees. You know they've got a blend of trees and home. But let's try to make this more of a question and answer unless it comes. But here's just ask me a question. Okay. I know. I know. I'm trying to get the problem in the four we start having deliberations. Telling me that you're going to put in some trees later or we're going to look at it doesn't work for me here. Okay. So I'm asking you so that you can make the call, not me, where you could do something to address this concern that multiple commissioners raised last time. I mean, and I'm happy to hear maybe we'll come back to you guys if we had to prefer to go that way. So why don't we do that for now? Yeah, and I think that if you look in the package, is there's a photograph of that side of the street and see the trees there. It's not like what you're seeing on my rendering. So like I said, I had to remove them so it didn't block the information that was beyond it. But there is more greenery than what's shown in that. And I think they're right in this area because we got a big tree area. Yeah, maybe you can go to that slide that just shows that side of the street. And maybe we can decide right now and say, yeah, if we threw a couple in and filled it, where there's an open spot, it might be useful. I mean, I think just for reference, what is the total height from the elevation, the floor elevation of the garage to the top of the home. Just so we know, you know, as far as tree selection, what we need to do to try to get most of the way up there. Can we go to that elevation for a second, Michelle? Yeah, I wanted it like more than 45 feet. You know, around 50 feet. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I mean, just to be clear, right, we're talking about some substantial trees to get up to 35, 40, something. I mean, the big picture here is context, right? Almost all the homes on that hillside have a lot of tree coverage and we're trying to improve the situation that you have now and we're trying no offense, you know, as much as you and others may like the design, we're also trying to be contextual about the approach that we're taking here. That's exactly a sect of number one thing and the very first thing our design guidelines talk about. So I'm trying to kind of get us toward that a little bit and I hope you can appreciate that. I do. I do. I think it'd be great to go back to that slide. I think you had Michelle with the that elevation because I think it does tell a little bit the different story about how much trees are there and I'm happy to add as many trees as you want. I love trees so it's not like I dislike I'm against adding trees. I think you'll appreciate us someday by the way I really do and there are benefits for you. No, no, no, it provides privacy. Commissioner Ullis, if you don't mind, I do want to make sure we get the public in before we kind of really start with deliberations and I think we've asked the question. You've raised the issue. We start deliberations, he's not here. I understand that, but I think this is a design review hearing with a complete set of drawings and you know we should well-judicated based on that and you know if there are conditions that need to be added we can do that. I'm not trying to cut you off but I just I want to be respectful of the getting the public comment into before we start opining. Okay just two or three more questions. Limestone over the concrete just curious you know I don't know we, anybody expressed concern about the concrete per se last time. Maybe we even talked about board form concrete and whatnot. Do you feel strongly about that? Because it is just yet another material that's got to be trucked in. It's more sustainability, you know, carbon concerns. You know, there's something about that aesthetic retry to address us. Are concerns, or was that something you wanted to do? I think what I'd do is just to kind of warm it up more, you know, as far as a finish on it. I thought about, you know, the idea that maybe we used a tinted concrete or a colored concrete or something that would be a warm color. But, you know, existing house, it's a very thin veneer and stuff and it's real stone. I wouldn't be using, you know, the phony concrete stuff. This will be real stone. I actually had this little bit of fantasy that maybe this is a pretty rocky site that maybe I'd start seeing what comes off the site and seeing if we could kind of use it as a surface, but I don't know yet, you know, that's kind of unknown. So rather than that, I thought, well, why don't I pick up a color that's kind of looks like the color of the Earth there, which is a very limestone kind of warm color to go with the bronze. Okay, so you feel sick to say moderately strongly about that? Or a vary? I mean, it's going to cost me more money to do, but you know, we have it on our house now and it's nice. So... Modeling strongly. Modeling strongly. Okay. The only failure is something we talked about a little bit last time. I know there was a good bit of discussion about excavation and off-haul, and then there's four people who've written in about construction impacts, parking, et cetera. I looked at your construction management plan. You know, there's, and this may be for staff too, so just to, you know, pick up your ears a little bit. I guess my question really to staff is, you know, and they're showing a number of cars parked in the driveway when they're doing much of the excavation loading, and that's probably not going to be possible entirely or at all at times. When, I know that the construction management plan talked about carpooling, my question is, especially for the public here tonight, who have concerns, how does the city enforce that? If the public has concerns, and there's a ton of cars walking the road and whatnot, how is it enforced? Is there anything that they can do as neighbors to reach out to the city or to the, I know they have to put up a contact number on a sign for example but is beyond that is there anything that can do because yeah I think in reality there's not a lot of carpool going on having lived next to a construction site for about 16 months recently? So admittedly, it's difficult to enforce. By and large construction management complaints are on a complaint basis. Our inspectors that do inspect and observe, they'll call attention to any issues that they find to the contractor. But oftentimes it's the building official that's working directly with the contractor to alleviate any issues that we receive via complaints. So it's literally calling in the contractor at times or working with them over the phone or the inspector upholding the CMP. So at this point this is a preliminary CMP and we will get into the more detailed construction management plan at the construction permit drawing phase. Okay, thank you That construction manager playing calls for a 10 months casual. Do you really think this will take? 10 months what why is so I mean because she's awesome I'll tell you why this is I'm all kidding aside. Yeah She is great. She has all of her subs the all are very loyal to her They it's getting them to show up in the day. They're supposed to get up. I'm the owner and I'm the architect. So I go down there every day. There's a question. I can answer it right then. I have to go to the owner. I have to go to the architect and wait for somebody to come back with that answer. So she did a similar size house for us and she did it in ten months. and so I have every faith and that house was new. This one we're actually keeping a large part of the foundation, well the whole house foundation and all the framing of the existing house. So it's really down to the new park that's going to be added onto it. Okay and then last question, the underfloor area seems like a fantastic opportunity to store soil basically. Oh, interesting. Yeah, you should a teeny amount of soil being stored there, but you know, length by width by height is a lot. I mean, that's trucks and trucks and trucks. Wonderful idea, because are you opposed to filling that entire space with soil? Okay, because that would obviously alleviate a lot of impact to your neighbors, to the street. It saves you time, a little money, and I think that's why it's people that are in the audience. All right, thank you very much. Okay, great. Any other questions for the applicant? Commissioner Serena? I think because the construction timing and the disruption and the access is such a critical issue. I would like to hear a little bit from the contractor about. That would be a pretty awesome achievement to build that whole house. Did you say ten months? This is not a first rodeo. Yeah, so I could even be a little bit from the contractor if you wanted that? Oh yeah, any member of the team can come on up and ask an answer to question. You know, what your magic potion is or how you, how you do that? Well, I wanted to tell, um, Yon, is that your name? John. Sorry that you lived next to a construction site with a typical construction of 16 months to three years. That's never been available. I see that, no, I see that around. Okay, but that's not what I said. Let's not. You said you've been living next to one for 16 months. Okay. I'm just saying, I hear, know what I'm saying is, I hear this a lot around Mill Valley. So it's never been my experience. With all the respect, if we could just, I understand. Yeah. But I have a question to you about sort of, if you could just conceptually tell us how, what you do different. How I do it. Yeah, how do you do it? I know what you do. I've been a contractor for 35 years and I've never taken more than 12 months to build a house. And I did their pretty big one. In fact, it was the same size, yeah, in 10 months. And my as silly as this sounds, you know, I pay my guys the day they're done. I'm very respectful. I have a Gantt chart that the guys know about. I put it out when I first start the project. And I have everyone look at it and I say if you have vacations planned, you have things going on, you have another job going on, whatever. I need to know that you can fit in this or I'm going to plan B. And they almost all agree to it. And so they know when they're supposed to be there. It just hasn't been an issue. It's not rocket science. You just have to get guys there when, you know, they've been doing it. Okay, so that particular site is a very difficult place to get to and from. I was up there prior to the first session and there happened to be some construction on a house just beyond the cul-de-sac and there were eight construction vehicles obviously that was in you but there's essentially as far as I could tell no place to park a construction vehicle zero. How do you help? Well we have to be able to park at least two cars. Other than that, it's not a big deal. My guys usually bring all their tools at once. We lock them up and then they carpool. And I don't overlap anybody in such a way that we have so many cars there. We just have a really tight schedule. So I'm really very attentive to that. It's more trucks than cars, but. Well, same thing. Yeah, so just saying that I'm very on top of it. I also introduce myself to all the neighbors. I give my phone number, because you were talking about how to monitor it. I give my phone number because you were talking about, you know, how to monitor it. I give my phone number, my email to everyone, and I say, if you see something that seems amiss or somebody forgot something or missed the memo, you're welcome to say something to my guys are all very respectful. If you're not comfortable with that, call me. I'll take care of it. It won't happen again. I don't get any complaints any time because I'm very, very careful and very respectful. And, you know, as funny as it sounds in this day and age, being a woman in this business, I noticed things that a lot of the men don't. And that's why I got into the business in the first place when I was 28 years old. As I saw that a lot of things were missed and everybody's, the guys talked to each other like this. Where I'm just like, look at me, did you hear me? Did you hear him? You know, I know it's like I'm part psychologist or marriage counselor, between my guys, you know, and it does matter because, you know, they know what my expectations are and I tell them, you know, if you leave something out and it blows across the street, they're not going to call you, they're going to call me. I want my neighbors to feel comfortable, you know, knowing when my sign goes up, who's going to be building it. I've had people call me and tell me, oh my gosh, we just saw the construction sign going up. We were sad to see that this is going to happen. We're going to have a house here or we're going to have a new house here or whatever, but we were happy to see it was you because they already know my reputation. Well, I just doubly raise it because I know that it's a very difficult site. It's a yeah. It is. And we can't do it without cars. Are you sure? But you will have to really do what you say. You're going to have to architect, owner, contractor. It's going to really have to achieve those goals that you've stated. And you know, I am. Well, I've stated and I'm. I do the best I can. Yeah. I mean, I always put my best. It's definitely a partnership and it's good that you have short sort of communication lines because you got a combo on an architect, which is great. So just keep that in mind as you go ahead. I think it's one of the, I think that I have a lot of sort of very positive response to the design things. I'll talk about it later, but I think this particular thing is probably, if you're going to, if something's going to go wrong, it's going to be because of that. Well, and I think, like I said, that's kind of why I got into the business. I saw a lit of miscommunication or lack of communication when I was a young carpenter. And I thought they're not listening, and so I can't do magic. And I can't build the house with no trucks going up there. I can't hand dig it without tractors. But certainly, we know how to do it quickly and smoothly and to be careful. Is there a question because I don't think that was a statement and that was a statement. So, okay, we're done with questions. Any more questions? Okay. Thank you very much. Let's move it now to public comments. Anyone who would wish to make a comment on this project? come on up, state your name, you'll have three minutes, and if you want to have, give us your address, you're welcome to, you don't have to. And yeah, first person, take it away. Good evening, I'm Noan Adenos, and I resided 69, Moral and Avenue, have for 65 years. You're talking about the right things, I think. We have been following this from the beginning. From the beginning, we thought it's way too big. And now it's not way, but it's still big. You're looking at the right context when you talk about how difficult it is. It's a small street. It's a small, a small cul-de-sac on my friend Susan Brown, right behind me, where to the end of that. So she has, she's on the street. I'm up above and I value, I suggest that you not try to landscape this house on the basis of the renderings because they are very, very disingenuous. I should say they are not accurate to what the situation is actually. So we don't want to lose our solar access. Our deck is right above, category. We appreciate that the roof line is not going to change from what it is now, at least to our end of the house, our view. Ian Clayton, who lives directly above, probably should be consulted before you start planning trees behind, because his deck is right above. So the context here is really, really important. This is a tiny street, and we've had, I'm not on the street, but above. So I suggest that you really focus on this issue you've been debating and Trying to get some assurance that the access and the safety where the people who live on that little narrow street is assured Joan I think is going to My neighbor's gonna speak for herself Great. Thank you very much Hi the neighbors going to speak for yourself. Thank you very much. Hi. I'm Susan Reynolds. I'm at the end of the cul-de-sac. No, there's been my neighbor for 65, well, 64 years. And we're still living next door. And we built the house in the early 60s and we had no idea it would become more beautiful as the years went on. And they have, I have huge oak trees and the cal fires coming in wanting to prune them and the worst theory is getting pruned. Anyway, we're in a very lush area. We are tucked down this little street and it is special. We have people asking, you know, would you want to move? Or do you know anyone who has a house? It's a block party a couple of weeks ago. 33 people came. All they did was get an email saying, hey, we're going to do it. 33 people showed up and it's a delightful community. Okay. We've just finished four months of construction next door, an older house which we thought was going to be torn down, a young couple bought it and they have been working for four months. There have been from six to nine trucks on that cul-de-sac and up the throat of that street. And you know, I don't know. The construction workers, I mean, the contractors got used to me. Excuse me, who's got the black talk again? Who's going, so I mean, these people, there was no plan. They weren't parking off site. And the minimum was six, and it went up to 12 one day. Let me tell you, it's the, but really got my attention in addition to being trapped, was that the male man came a number of times pounding on the door to know that this is dangerous. No one could get out if they wanted to. Okay, so the parking isn't issue, but what I wanna say is the interesting thing about the landscape is that I can't remember when the house was built, it was built when we lived there, maybe 25 years, and the house was built. It was built when we lived there maybe 25 years. And then it was built. And it was carved out of the cul-de-sac. It is raw, it is a rough, chert surface. It is not a lovely landscape surface. There are several small oak trees, and they take a while. The Aleppo Pine visit the under the driveway is kind of a volunteer for my big guy that was planted 63 years ago. There's no way you could plant anything on that almost solidly rock hillside. It is solid. It's a mess What has is happening is that apparently the owner has the water going and what's being watered is? Black Acacia Does anyone know what a black Acacia is? I don't think it's really a good idea. It's invasive and it's moved across. It is, these bushes about four feet tall and I sometimes have my gardeners come over yank them out because it's going to be solid, a casea, and the fire prevention people are looking for taking out a casea as well as junipers. But that is, I don't know how anyone can plant anything on that hillside, they'd have to take a jackhammer. And if you don't mind maybe wrapping up, that's just, that in your rational. I understand I just want to be respectful of the respect, but if you get in one last thing, it's fine. Yeah, anyway, it's the safety and there needs to be a lot of trees, but I don't know what trees are going to grow that rapidly unless you plant eucalyptus and you don't want to do that. Anyway, sorry. Thank you for your comments tonight. Appreciate it. Come on up, state your name and your address if you wish to. Ian Clayton, 55,000 in Avenue. So we are the house directly above. So I think most of our concerns were obviously to do with the bouffleine and the height of it all. I think so most of that looks like it's been addressed. And obviously, you know, it has privacy. I did see it stuff on the solar panels. Most of them seem to be on the front of the house. And not on the back of the house. So I'm assuming we're not going to get a lot of clear and stuff like that. And then I only say, it seems the most discussion on the trees we're to do with the front of the house as well to reflect that. I mean, I think as we've experienced, we spent a lot of time on our deck looking out and stuff like that. So we would want to hold a bunch of trees at the back, sort of blocking that. So that was my main concern, but it seemed to be, if you say, that solar panels seem to be not the issue. But thank you. Thank you very much. Anyone else? Come on up to state your name and your address if you wish to. I'm Danak Remy, one of 40's manor, and I've looked here for about 40 years. And I'm really sad that I won't be able to say hi to you on your rooftop deck. I was so bummed to hear that got ditched. And I really appreciate that, you know, everything you're doing with a Firesafe House, I think it's going to be a great model for Mill Valley. I mean, I appreciate that you kept the envelope, the Joan of Lundblatt actually built herself in 1972. And I'm very happy to see Girl Power driving the construction of the project. My husband will be the number one cul-de-sac car monitor. He's at home all the time. So you'll get to know him really well. And I will say that construction has been a real issue with not only what just happened at Susan's house but another house down the street. It's super narrow. We get dinged all the time when we have eight people for a dinner party. The police let us know that cars have parked in places that they shouldn't, making it not safe on the street. So I'm sure you'll address that. I was just going to comment that there are some oaks on that hillside, and it is exactly a Susan just said. I mean, I don't know how you can plant it, unless you're going to do a lot of planting beds along that hillside. It is inhospitable to plants. I personally would like to see the monoray pine removed. I might think that they're fire hazards and the less fire hazards you know, won't catch fire. And then, you know, my one issue, which, you know, we shared when you did that wonderful open house, thank you so much for hosting that, is the shaft that goes up. I am the only house in the neighborhood whose house is going to be directly impacted by the roof line. And so I've looked at the story polls as they've gone up. And I am a little bit nervous because it is impacting my view of Mount TAM. I don't generally trust story polls. I've seen them go up in other houses and the buildings become much taller. And so I would love to see if there is any way, whether or not that elevator shaft that was supposed to go to the garden. Could come down because it is smack dab in my view of Mount Tim and you know if it's off by even a little bit it's going to be even more invasive to the entire roof line. So that's my wonder cross. Is that you look at that because I am the only house that has a view impacted by your home across the valley. And then one thing, there's a drain line that goes from Ian's house through my property and then down through your property. It's a clay line that comes out right at the bottom of the driveway. I've had to personally clean that line out for Joan and Joan. It's a very old line. I'm sure you're going to have to take it out when you do. But I'm hoping that when you all were talking about water management, I was hoping that we would make sure to look at what is basically a common lateral that comes from Ian's house, runs through my yard. None of my water goes into that pipeline and then goes through your line and then ends up down on East Manor. And it is, it used to gush and it doesn't gush anymore. I don't know if something happened at Ian's house or if it's blocked again. But I didn't see anything in the last couple of winners when I was taking care of Joan. So those are my only comments other than whatever you plant along the line where that new addition is, that you plant short trees, so I don't lose my view too, please. Thank you. Thank you very much. Anyone else wishing to speak on this item? Not seeing anyone else? Okay, I'll close the public hearing, bring it back up to the board for the Commission for deliberations. And I looked at our minutes from last and I believe Commissioner Cerengle had the most volume in those comments. And so we will start with Commissioner Cerengle for deliberations. Not quite as organized as it was last time, but I would like to say that I think that on the design side, the response to the study session for what you've done, I think it's an example of why I think we have design study sessions. And I believe you've addressed many of the things that very specifically that we talked about in a way that is not just verbatim, but you took it on board and rethought it and came back with a better design in a number of ways. Starting with the massing, I think the move to, as we discussed, to make the center knuckle void rather than an object is a very important move. I think it's very successful. The idea of making the two components, the existing house and the new addition to be of a family together, yet different is I think what we talked about and I think you've done that successfully. You mentioned it but you know basically having a black one on a white one versus having two pieces of the puzzle that are compatible materials, albeit I think the existing house is a more traditional version of that and the addition is a more contemporary version of that. So I think that brings it together. It makes it more of a, in a way, it kind of blends in, but it also, I think, achieves an architectural idea that you were striving for. I also think that your use of the screens that were much more aggressive, I think you said LA kind of thing last time are now still being used, but they're being used to shield some of the light. Create the Romeo Juliet, balconies out of a new kind of contemporary material that is of your liking and your, you've got history with it and I think it's kind of a good way of achieving, reducing the light adding character and making the pieces of the puzzle again have some distinction but being compatible. We asked you to, if you would really consider using solar panels, you were a little gun shy on that last time but I think you've not only just done it but you've taken it on board. So I think just in general I think down the list landscaping and the terracing, I think just in general, I think the down the list, landscaping and the terracing, I think it's a really, really nice to see a range of responses across the board. The one thing that, and I don't know what the answer is here, but the one thing that seems like I wouldn't make this a given, but the form of the roof on the new addition with the Oculus sort of off-centered, I think it's a very clever idea. It still leaves the elevator tower as sort of a bit of an odd piece. You know, maybe it's receded back and it's not, it's fine. I guess I wonder if there was a way to grab that thing that has to stick up to be sort of the culmination of forms that it won't put a skylight where you want it. But it's one of the pieces of the puzzle that is a little less than a wonderful, I'll leave it at that. I think I may be swing around again, but I think that captures at least the design side. I just would just go back for just a second on the access. The plan that is showing on page A1A, if you could put that up, A11. A11, excuse me, A11 showing parking11 excuse me A11. Showing parking on that street. I find that hard to believe. You know there's a car directly across from a driveway. Maybe some turning radiuses would be cold for, but I don't see how you could have two or three cars parked there and still get in and out of that driveway. Maybe I'm misreading it, but it just seems like the image of one, two, three, seven, eight 7-8 potential parking spaces is doesn't seem possible to me. So I guess maybe when we circle back, I would like to see more rigor to the management plan, the parking plan, the thing that's going to cause your neighbors to be unhappy. Whatever elements of that that we can improve and focus on and make your project successful. So I'll leave it at that. Great. Thank you very much for your deliberations. Commissioner Hilderrand wants to go next. I'm going to start with the next slide. I'm going to start with the next slide. I'm going to start with the next slide. I'm going to start with the next slide. I'm going to start with the next slide. I'm going to start with the next slide. I'm going to start with the next about. I think you did a really good job of that. And I'll just add a little bit to I agree with what Commissioner Surangle said. But you basically addressed every single thing we talked about. And that never really happens in my view. And I'm a big fan of glazing because it brings in day lighting. I think the fear of the light box effect, I just don't think that's the future. The future is day lighting, not small windows and lots of energy to light the home. But you've addressed it. A lot of people would want Lorraine Glass there, but you've addressed it with the light bronze tint, and that'll help the, that'll help with performance of the glass and, and it'll cut down on the, on the carbon, but it'll soften the, it'll soften the, the light. And so you've addressed that. So I do appreciate that. I don't think we should keep talking about that personally, but that's just my own personal opinion. And the way you've used, because I've been lucky enough to use Bach modern panels before on projects, and the fact that you've used them so well, and you've come back to us, not just where you had that kind of black and white graphic going, but you've brought them in and as a shading device. You've brought them in as a screen that that's often to the glass and does address privacy. And you're using the Core 10 fencing, which is so much better to be able to use recycled steel, then end up taking down our northwest cedar and redwoods to surround everybody's property with redwood and cedar, which is what we see around Mill Valley. And I can't agree that that actually helps with privacy, but that's what everybody wants to do. And so the fact that you've done that with your product and you've used it in different finishes, I think it's going to look fabulous. So, and then the comment about the limestone cladding, you know, while your house is on the hill with whether that's board for and concrete or other concrete, this really softens it. And so I really appreciate the addition of the line stone because it, you know, it's often, it warms it up and it provides texture. And I think that's going to be at your, your sight line when you walk up to the house. So I think that's great. Um, and I, and I think, um, you know, as far as the, um, as far as the concern about trees, I, I have full confidence that you're going to want to plant them where you can. Um, and, you know, we all talk about trees so we can hide a house. I just, to me, it has to be more about how do you create a garden that you're doing in some of these planting areas. You're going to have a nice garden. You're going to add a Japanese maple. You're going to try to maintain the trees you have and then add to it. I'm not concerned about that. I think you can do that. But you also have to be careful how you do it from a fire safety standpoint and from blocking off the neighbor's views. So that's just a fine line that I'm not going to dictate where you put the trees. But in any case, I'm in full support and I think you've done a fantastic job. Thank you very much, Commissioner Hullbran. Commissioner Ulyss, your deliberations please. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I just want to say, you've made a good number of improvements to what we talked about last time, and I think we all appreciate that, and I'll just reiterate what I said last time, which is, you know, I don't think we see a lot of modern architecture that works, and I think what we're seeing tonight in general works a lot, you know, better than last time. You know, the darker material palette blends into the hillside and that's a huge improvement. I think, you know, something that receives from you as much as it can, you know, is always appreciated as much as good architecture is fun. You know, I don't think most people want to see structures out there windows. And so that's really appreciated. It would have been great if you could have done that roof deck on the master bedroom. I think it would help step that very forward prominent piece of the home a little bit further back. Because it's quite tall and quite prominent. There's a lot of really large retaining walls going on here. It's going to take a long time. It sounds like you really want to plant them and do as much as you can to screen, but it's going to take a long time for everything to grow in. And planting landscaping doesn't always take either, especially on a really steep hillside. So I think that's important to keep in mind. As much as I think you addressed a lot of the improvements and this is more about process than I think this particular project, I think it's also important for us as a commission to not just look at improvements but look at what the new proposal is and still make sure it is largely compliant with the design guidelines and where it isn isn't compliant, that there's good reason for it. And there often is good reason to not be compliant. Or maybe there's other areas of a project that excel that carry it and others maybe don't need to as much. And I think to some degree, that's the case here. By the way, I really appreciate the contractor speaking up. I think we need, if she's half the contractor, I really appreciate the contractor speaking up. I think we need, you know, if she's half the contractor, she sounds like she is. We need more people like her in town and maybe she'll consider offering a contractor training course to some of the other contractors in town. No guarantees. Ten months? She's going to be stolen. In any case, Commissioner Sringle mentioned that roof that I think, you know, you've got an AIA fellow here, which is a big deal, who's being recognized with a legacy award at his architecture school, and I think about 7, eight, nine days, which is also a huge deal. And you're getting some really valuable tips from somebody who could be billing out, or probably a thousand dollars an hour right now if he wasn't retired. So I would just jump on the Commissioner Sringle-Bandwagon here to say, I think he's on to something with that roof. I hope you'll study it. I'd bill out at about 60 cents an hour for architecture. So here's my 60 cent version, which is maybe some kind of cool modified hip could work there. Maybe it's a shed roof or something. I do feel for your neighbor who's talking about views being impeded a little bit, views are not protected under the law, but they should be honored to the extent that they can be. And she's been living with the condition, I'm not quite sure how long you may have said, I'm sorry if I didn't hear that. But four years. Four years? Four years. 40 years with a certain vantage point. But four years. Four years? Four years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. Forty years. And that is a tricky thing. It's not like you can just easily move that sort of thing. Let's allow to handle that. So just the couple of things that I want to come back to in the end. So again, largely kudos. As far as the construction management, I think we've all been up to the site. Most of us have been up to the site. I do think you can generally park a number of cars up there. I'm curious to make sure that we actually have the width. I don't see a dimension going this way. I mean, we could dimension it. I don't have my ruler tonight, but maybe somebody can dimension to make sure that we've got the required EVA there that's necessary. And if not, okay, well, that sounds like it's not a good situation. So we got, I think we should talk about that a little bit further. The conditions I would say that we should consider applying to this project that I would like to see applied are. The applicant sound of very amenable to filling that under floor area with as much soil as it can handle. I really think that would be a benefit to his pocketbook, his neighbors, and the whole community by not having that many more trucks go down and out, and we all know what that can be like at 3.30 when school gets out. I still do think it would be nice. It's great. As much as, first of all, there is no spec. Lowbrown, you've got a tint. You said a bronze tinted glass. We don't know if it's 1% tinted or 99% tinted. And so I really would like to get to a little more specificity. And I think I see Commissioner Hilden rolling his eyes basically over here. So I'm not asking you to speak yet, but I would love to hear your, I know you have a lot of technical knowledge in this area, so feel free to address my concern here. But I'm not just speaking about light box here. I'm also speaking about texture and blending into your surroundings like every other home pretty much does. And not no offense showing off this big thing on a prominent hill. When you look at the site plan, most of the trees that look like they are existing into remain are within a foot or two or three of these retaining walls that you're gonna have to build. And I doubt that between the retaining walls and the root systems and that incredibly steep hillside, most of those trees are going to remain. So I really do think we should consider making sure that if they don't survive the construction, that we have a condition so that there is a certain amount of, at a minimum, retention of what you have there now and ideally, and I've got some specific city in this and I'll come back to it Just to get maybe a pair of trees that will grow tall enough into Michelle if you'll bring up the main elevation the South elevation tall enough partway into the the set of windows on the there we go the set of windows there on the South facing facade, you know some some kind of, I don't know, 25, 30 percent opacity when canopy is full grown or something like that. And I think that's it. So again, you know, thanks. I think this is going to be a cool addition. Be great if we could solve, you know, address the neighbors concerns. I think, you know, staff, we should talk about that a little more. But I think this will eventually be an exciting project. Thank you. Thank you very much, Commissioner Ehrlis. Commissioner Meckers, your deliberations please. Yeah, thanks. Since I couldn't attend the study session, I'll keep this to a minimum. It does seem in general that you've been very responsive to the feedback from the commission. So thanks for that. You might want to talk a little more about what John brought up. Seems to me the number one issue is the construction management plan. You've got a good recipe for about as good as it gets in that you're the owner and architect. And you've got a very experienced contractor with you, which it sounds impressive if you can actually do that. Another key here is just listening to neighbor comments, that there's no perfect solution here on construction manager. You'll have to cooperate and coordinate, and I know you know that but I'd just Encourage everyone to remain neighborly and communicative To make this work and and it sounds to me you've all been there quite some time you know what that will look like when it happens so that's you know we can't can't legislate that into into being we can perhaps ask Patrick more about the city oversight. Is there anything extra that can be done from an oversight perspective because it's a call to sack, because it's a narrow road, because it's a steep hillside where there are going to be truck rolls and it's complicated. So would it be appropriate to do anything extra on that? And maybe I'll pause there. That's a great question. And in asking that question, I was kind of drawn upon, I think it was lower Wayne Wright, where a project at the end of the road ended up as a private road and that was more about just access to the project, but that was one, I think, came to mind, but this commission, maybe the commissioners, this commission, I would say with exception of church scales, may be church scales, you may recall 501 cascade, The commissioners, this commission, I would say with exception of Chair Skiles, may Chair Skiles, you may recall 501 Cascade, where the commission actually imposed certain restrictions that became conditions of approval. For construction, worker parking, even how to manage, with very intricate at this level of conditions of approval, because 501 Cascade is way up on the mountain, it's at narrow road, it's a very steep topography. And I wouldn't say this project is apples to apples are the same. I'm just saying to answer your question, if you feel the need to go beyond what you see in the conditions of approval to impose specific conditions or beyond what the applicant has identified in the construction management plan sheet eight, then offer up conditions of approval. What I would recommend, I can't think of any specific to this project site other than if you wanted to go further and there's a certain phase where the driver will be completed and that then offers an opportunity for parking, getting cars off the street for example. But there will be a time period until that's completed where there will be some challenges with this project. So like project development, there's phases where we're feeling questions today about a project and they're delivering materials and there's a lot of impact. But next week things will be different. So it's just that time period where there are like in 501 cascade again, we were receiving complaints when they were a pile driving because of noise impacts. That went on for a couple days and there's nothing we could do about that and uphold the noise ordinance and ensure that they're not going beyond the hours that are limited for construction. There's a lot there, but I can't think of any staff didn't through our coordination with the Department of Public Works identify any specific conditions beyond that of the standard conditions for construction management. I wondered that, that's helpful thank you. And beyond the conditions we could impose, I guess I had been thinking about operationally after approvals during the construction. Can we do more because of the unusual constraints in this site to enforce whatever the conditions on? I mean, if you want me to answer some other things I've seen over the many years of this coming up and there was a time period where we had things called impacted streets when there was more than one project going on its own and then you had to kind of like use with work with staff to kind of coordinate your parking with the other project on the street, limit your hours of deliveries that used to happen on impacted streets. That probably doesn't apply here but those are other conditions that I've seen certainly around the schools as well. That was popular for a while to try to limit the number of deliveries that were happening at the same time if you were you know three houses down from a school park kind of thing. I saw that for a while. So there's those are ideas. I'm not sure who one of those directly apply here and then of course limiting the number of cars is a classic. I mean you can write a condition that says no more than two construction vehicles can be parked on the street in this cult sec. That would be probably the most applicable to this particular project. Okay. And I'm not really sure what to ask specifically other than imposing conditions. Not sure I'm proposing that either, but in terms of enforcement and coordination, is there anything more that the city can do as a partner along with the neighbor and the builder to make sure that when issues pop up and are somewhat unpredictable day to day, that we try to make things as best as they can be. So we've called in contractors in the neighbors, like 501 Cascade again, it was a good example where we had two meetings during the course of that project with neighbors in the contractor. But it led to the contractor actually literally taking phone numbers and emails and communicating when there's a delivery for example. So I think that deserves sort of a sound like we have a good contractor on hand and the proactive. It's incumbent upon them to be doing that. And if there's issues along the way then the building official and I we call a meeting with the neighbors in the contract. Okay, so I think it sounds to me like the rules in place are there to be enforced and they are reasonable rules and it's up to everybody involved on this to make it as good as it can be because it's going to be disruptive for 10 months. Yeah, well, then right. That's a trade-out book communication with the neighbor seems key. All right. And the construction manager plan, I mean, you probably read this. She ate states that vehicles show park on the project site. So it does call that out. And then it talks, it speaks to the park and ride, Manzanita, and the public parking construction workers would park and then carpool. So the tools are there to be dealt with. And I think that's bad as far as I intended to go on that. The only other comment I'll finish with on the trees, and there are a number of trade-offs here. Will the existing trees survive the construction? Can new trees be planted? And should they be given all the various constraints, including fire safety? So I'm, I'll be curious, I know John, you've given that a lot of thought. You might have more thoughts on how to structure a condition around that. But it just seems there are a lot of constraints and unknown factors right now where we need to allow some flexibility. If I may, I would suggest that any condition related to vegetation would be subject to approval by the Southern R&D district. Yeah, yeah. Okay, thank you. Okay, great. I'll give my deliberations and I'll go have an opportunity. I have everybody come back around and hit some of these specific topics. So I'm gonna echo what's both my fellow architect commissioners said regarding addressing the items over the study session. I think you did an outstanding job of coming up with creative solutions to each of these. And this is, I said this the first one, this is a challenging site. So I mean coming up with really elegant solutions is hard. So I appreciate you doing that. Overall I think this is a fine project and it meets the design review guidelines and it meets with kind of the assignments we gave you and I think you seem to be pretty happy with the way it's turning out as well, which I'm very happy when that happens. A couple very specific things I'll now deliberate that I'll give my kind of thoughts on that we can then open up to the group and discuss. I think this is an appropriate amount of glazing, particularly with the addition of these Juliet balconies, masking some of the glazing, where I'm not concerned about cross canyon lantern effect, and I'm also not concerned about kind of glare and things like that because of the way the glass is being treated. So to me, it's kind of a non-issue. I think that's where I rest on this one. With regards to the trees and the vegetation, your neighbors, a couple of them both brought up the quality of the soil there, and that is really apparent. So I think if that one tree that you're now going to be saving can be saved. And if it can somehow thrive in that sandstone soil, great. It might be hard to get any other trees to do that or it might take a very long time. So I would say the rest of the landscaping effort should really be focused on just making it as beautiful as possible. And you know, small gardens, specimen trees, Japanese maples, as you have, those are great choices. And while they don't hide the building, they offer a softness and just a beautiful quality that I think blends well with the architecture. And overall, it just makes a really pleasant addition to the cul-de-sac and that your neighbors will enjoy and appreciate, regardless of how it's all the trees get. I think they'll just look very nice. And then with regards to trees behind the home, I think I agree with several of the neighbors where they want to be able to enjoy the views they've had so they don't want anything that's going to be taller than the roof that you are going to be building and I agree with that entirely so I wouldn't over landscape that with trees. Last thing with regards to the roof forms. I totally see what you're saying, Commissioner Saringle, when you look at this view. I was trying to imagine this when I was at the property, and I don't think you can actually see that roof when you're on the street or on the property. You might when you kind of get back a little bit, but I think it would be pretty rare to see that structure at all. So I'm not as bothered by it. Certainly the neighbors that are uphill behind will be able to see it, but I think it's low in their vision scape and I just don't think it'll be that offensive. That being said, if you come up with a better solution, then a elevator penthouse, I mean, we would all appreciate it, I'm sure. So everybody, it's an opportunity to see it, but that would be something I think you can leave with staff. I'm confident enough in the seriousness that you took from the study session to now that if we kind of just make that a suggestion, you're going to take it seriously based on what I've seen from the generations. So with that, Commissioner Cernyly, you wanted to make a comment. Then if anyone else, we can just continue to kind of deliberate until we kind of coalesce around an idea here. Yeah, just quickly back to the massing of the elevator. I think your point is well taken. I think the position of it is probably not very visible. Just one thought is you do have a chimney on the other massing of the building and maybe you think of it akin to like a foe chimney. So I'll leave it at that. Could you put on just a 8.1 on for just a second. I think this project is a unique situation for your construction management plan in that it has this very long driveway that you're taking advantage of during the first phase of construction upper left-hand corner. That's a very unique situation that you that you're eventually going to turn it to something totally different which is great. It's going to be a plateau. The only thought I, it says on that phase one, excavation and teardemulation duration two weeks. I, I guess I wonder, is there a way for you to think about building this house and making that condition of all those parking spaces last longer. Could you build the addition and then could you build more could you take advantage of that for longer? That's that that would be a suggestion. I see ahead not the wrong left and right but I think that's worth thinking about. There probably is an opportunity to start using the garage rough slab once that's built to park cars in the second half of the project that would be more probable than getting. And I would say regarding cars, I think they already have in their construction. I was going to bring this up as a condition that we should limit the number of cars they're intending to park on the adjacent street, but they already have that in their construction management plan, that they're not going to do that. How many cars do they have? That they're going to shuttle cars and carpool. And so they're really going to use the drop off delivery spot as where cars can be parked unless there's a delivery and then they'll be shuttling people. So that kind of already is the way it looks like it's going to prove. I think that's a positive response. I do think that drawing that we had up earlier that had seven or eight cars parked along the street is just a 16-foot wide street. You park one any car, it kind of doesn't work. Huh? Why does the chance exist? Well, if we, if we measure or bring you up, I think for, you know, now what we typically do is deliberate and then turn on. So, did anyone else have any? Okay. Did anyone else have any conversations on some of the fellow commissioners' deliberations? John wanted me to address the class spec so I would do that. So the key issue with the glass is not the JMT where I just was, but the VMT. So that's visual visible light transmittance. So that's a number when you look at glass. So if he did anything darker than light bronze, there wouldn't be any visible light coming through and then you'd have to have the lights on all the time inside. So usually when you expect glass, you want the best performance in a low number for the solar heking coefficient and the u-value you want to not have a lot of heat loss and you don't want to have the heat gain but you want to have the highest visible light transmittance you can. And so that's a real challenge so that's why glass has certain coatings and such. But anything more than light bronze it'll be dark inside the house. And then you lose the whole point of having daylighting from the glass. So I think he's done a wonderful job of cutting off a lot of the glazing with the screens. And so, and that's at the upper level. And the most prominent corner is going to have this screen coming around the corner. So from the distance the upper level would be the most visible and the lower level would be the least visible because you're going to have other trees and such. So I don't see it as an issue personally just like mission or skills mentioned. Okay. I appreciate that. By the way, to me as a lay person, light bronze, those sounds generic. Does that actually mean something specifically? Yeah, it's a particular tint. I mean, there used to be everybody used that actually at a certain time. Okay. And. And. and uh, you see, you see to know how buildings, some like commercial buildings, you know. Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Yeah. The popular glass back in the, how can early California modern. Okay. Kushyles? Yeah. So, let me just for a moment, if I could come back to landscaping and trees and whatnot. You know, it's too bad we don't have a landscape architect on this commission. We used to have somebody who was focused on it a lot, but we lost her when she moved. And I just want to make sure we're all kind of fresh. And it was really helpful for me just now to go back to these design guidelines myself. But number 15 is protection of existing vegetation and habitat. And I don't think there's anybody's taking issue with protecting the existing trees and whatnot. But it does say here any construction improvements are discouraged in the drip zone of a significant tree or a riparian zone. And then last, trees during construction, last, you know, should be replaced. Replacement should be as approved and are directed by a city arborist, certified arborist, or landscape architect to aid in soil stability, provide necessary canopies, screening, and enhance the unique visual landscape character of Mill Valley. So I think we've got something to help, we can point to with respect to any potential loss of existing trees, because it seems like, there's a good chance that the four, there are four that are within, looks like a couple feet of the retaining walls that could well be lost. Number 16 is landscaping to maximize privacy and views, landscape design. If anybody wants to follow along on page 16 of the residential design guidelines, single family residential design guidelines, landscaping design should include appropriate landscaping to maximize privacy between residences. Soft and any undesirable light pollution reviews from offsite, we've talked about light pollution. Landscape design should include appropriate planting to soften the appearance of new construction as seen from offsite locations. I guess that one kind of really hits on what I keep coming back to which is this is going to be The most prominent home on that entire hillside if we don't do a little more to screen it and while I think You know nobody's saying it's unattractive. It's going to be super super prominent And so that's why I'm you know recommending something to soften it a little bit Just a couple more landscaping design should include appropriate screening for unattractive views of building and site elements, including an aunt limited to building foundations, deck supports, etc. Design compatible with the site and more natural locations the designs are integrated with the natural setting and should focus on restorative efforts to replenish native species and complement preserved existing vegetation. So when you read that one about softening the new home and new buildings, do you read that to mean that there should be trees of enough substance and size on the bank below the home that when you're walking along that street, you're not kind of just hit with a massive wall of new home and new retaining walls, but that there's enough trees to kind of mitigate the amount of new building that you see when you're walking along there. Yeah, I mean, reading this, I think it speaks to anything newly constructed. So whether it's a set of very large retaining walls that step up. No I get it but I mean the vantage point is my question. I mean but they're they're gonna be neighbors across the street. Right. People driving that street every day obviously not a lot of traffic. Walking etc. So I think it should address from that street. From that street and and you know again I'm spending a lot of time on the map you know Google Earth and Google map looking a lot of time on the map, you know, Google Earth and Google Map looking at what it will be like for people across the canyon looking at it, and it will be, it's quite exposed, especially if it loses some of these trees, but even if it doesn't, this house will rise above those trees, and it will be quite exposed, especially compared to almost all of the homes on that shared hillside. I mean, I get your point. I read that guideline to be much more about the immediate surroundings, meaning like the neighbor across the street, the people walking on that street. You know, that's what I think. Well, I'm not saying we should, you know, we should condition them to put redwoods that are and grow up above the roof. Like I said before, I think it's important that we think about a couple of trees that maybe create a little bit of texture for those lower set of windows on the first floor, where you've got full exposure of light. And just to kind of soften it a little bit. I'm open to anybody else who has ideas on how to speak to that, but to me it's a combination of preserving what's there or having it replaced if it dies or is damaged during construction per guideline 15C and adding a pair of trees that accompl, just certain amount of softening. Yeah. So, and again, I just for the benefit of the folks, the audience, whenever we provide a commission of approval, it needs to be empirical so that staff can actually enforce it. We just say, through some trees in there, they don't know what to do. So that's why I'm being kind of strangely arbitrarily specific about what I'm saying. No, I appreciate that. And how I would condition it given that we don't know enough about the soil and everything of the quality. And really a professional would be the right person to do that. Would be that we would condition that the applicant engage their landscape professional and or arborist to determine the appropriate number of you know 24-inch box trees that can be put into that hillside subject to the review of the Southern Fire District, Southern Burn Fire District, with the effort with the outcome being to try to soften the first story, the view of the first story from the adjacent street. Up to, just to be clear, up to, we're not talking about, yeah, the, you put them higher in the hill, as a point. Yeah, I think we're both saying the same thing. Yeah, I think we are. And that that would be the way of doing it where we're not making an impossible condition for them or for staff to hit, but it's also we're really making clear what our intention is. Yeah, Commissioner Sringle. Just a thought in looking at the plan here. In listening to the comments about how difficult that Rocky Hillside is to plant on, the current plan has a planter right along the leading edge of the lawn area seems like the best opportunity for three or four trees. Some can either do the right side. And then they would need to be that tall. To accomplish what you're doing. But that strip, it trees down in the slope area. First of all, they're falling. Yeah, it's sloped. So you're losing every inch you go down the hill, you're losing advantage for trying to get... It's 52% on average slope. I mean, obviously there are trees in the forest that grow on the out of the edge. But again, on this drawing. This is a very, I don't, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to particularly specify, specify exactly what to do to solve this discussion that you're having. But that seems to me that, that strip there is just right for, you know, if you're going to put trees somewhere. Right. That's a brief look. Got it. And then I think the other condition that Commissioner Eoles mentioned was to fill in the soil in the underfloor area, which I think we all probably, you know, nod your head if you agree with that. Sounds like a good idea. Yeah. Okay. And that we already have in the conditions of approval that if a tree that's shown to be kept is damaged to where it doesn't survive it, it has to be replaced. So we already have that. That's in the standard conditions of the pillars. Yeah, that's what actually in there. That's already in the standard conditions of approval. Okay. Yeah, so that one, I think we're good on. Okay, good. Great, thank you. and so does anyone else have any kind of commentary on things they'd like to see? No? Just double checking. Anything further on construction management, not a condition per se, but on... Well as I read the plans, I mean their construction management plan right now calls for them to Carpool and to use the loading zone and to not be parking on the street. Yeah, is that staff at that? Yeah, so that to me is what they're getting approved for. Yeah, is that staff that you yeah, so that to me is that's what they're getting approved for yeah We don't need to condition it. Okay. Yeah, the construction drawings, you know, will be reviewed to and you know for compatibility with the Design review set approved by the planning commission. Yeah, I'm glad you pointed it out besides I do think that's a pretty specific paragraph on that on that sheet that that does specifically say that on-site parking if it's available and if not? Yeah, and that's extraordinary most projects don't do that most projects do say they're gonna use a couple streets spaces so Okay, so the condition that I said I kind of rambled but I mean basically it's that the the I kind of rambled, but I mean, basically it's that the applicant will work with their arborison landscape professional to determine a plan to add 24-inch box trees, two or three, if they can, to the banked area below the home as high up as they can with the prospect of them growing up to at least the first floor level. Yeah. So just to give them a little more flexibility. Senator Kevin? Yeah. Go ahead. Mr. Rangel. Yeah. Mr. Rangel. Again, I think the most opportune location would be actually not on the bank but in the strip of planting so if we could have it at least be you know either or I wouldn't want to you know wouldn't want to preclude that that is a great opportunity and I even see the applicant nodding about that but I think either opportunity is fine by me I mean I think that's where we're going to lose another professional to come up with. I mean, I have confidence that this applicant will be able to do something here. The forms are quite nice. I don't want to open up the public hearing again unless we actually have to. I do not want to open the public hearing again and we'll absolutely have to. I was just going to clarify further. Were you going to recap it? If you were, then hold on a sec. Because I do want to give them flexibility to either locate it in the planter or what is currently shown as the lawn area or could even be in the paved area so long as, at least two up to three 24-inch box that ideally grow to the height of those windows. Or it could be if possible in the landscaping below, so long as they accomplish the same. Absolutely. And yeah, leaving their professionals flexibility to come up with the best solution. OK. Patrick, you want to recap that? Make sure we go. So I'm talking about the parts that have been discussed before the South African Shell Engaged Professional Landscape Professional, a landscape professional, for example in Arborist or Landscape Architect, determined the number of 24 inch box trees and either the planar strip or along the street or landscaped turf area that can grow to the height of the window. And that's what I was going to say. Level one of the first, yeah. The best West facing story for South-Fate. Level one, South-Facing, pair of windows. I guess it would be the western side of the South-Face, the western end of the South facing elevation and Patrick just to correct one thing you said along the street But I don't think it necessarily it somewhere between the street and the retaining wall You can say on the bank wherever is appropriate for them if they go that direction to locate those trees to accomplish the screening We're talking about and the other condition will be that the Underfloor area is a area that gets filled with dirt from the cutting and the operation of operations Okay, I think with those two conditions would anyone like to make a motion? Okay Motion to approve 120 East manner with the two aforementioned conditions. Okay. Commissioner Yollis has made a motion. Second. Commissioner Mackers has seconded. Let's unmute our microphones. Commissioner Mackers. Aye. Commissioner Yollis. Aye. Commissioner Hillbrand. Aye. Commissioner Saringal. Aye. Chair Scalz. Aye. Passes 5-0. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Chair's count is aye. Passes 5-0, congratulations. Any, I have to read my script now. Any decision made by the Planning Commission on the above items may be appealed to the City Council by filing a letter with the Planning and Building Department within 10 calendar days, following the date of the decision, describing the basis for the appeal, and accompanied by the $1,083.0 appeal fee. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Can we take a quick break? And then the next item is a 316 West Blight deal. And I will be recusing from that because I'm the applicant. So vice chair, sireringel's taken over. Quick break. That's like, is that why we have to be on this screen? Okay, so I'm on the screen. Let's try to get thirsty. I really like this one better. It's so fancy for anything. It is. That does look like something that came out of a seminar. You can just be on the screen. Oh my gosh. Oh, she started in the ball. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you for getting rid of the power. We'll see you later. Thank you so much. Good night. Thank you so much. Good night. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Good night. Thank you so much. Oh, man. You were up in Eugene. Well, because I've got family friends to all the kids soccer years that he just keeps talking about. Oh, you tired. You've got to go to Ben, and Oregon. It's got like everything. You can ski from there. You can mountain bike. You can hike. You can kayak and raft and it's like, that's the place to go. And he he's like I want to fix up my house and read it out I want to move to bed and we did one of the week there for a while. That's a new house. It's a single story house, at least some vision. Just a short walk from the open space area. I can't see any nice park over there. Because it's all kind of a planet element. I like that the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the virus and the Oh, you can just move. You can just move over and see if you can. Oh, nice. Oh, wow. Really? Yeah. I know I did. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I just thought I'd find a pretty link in the scenarios. Oh, yes, well. Oh, yes. What do you find out? I was like, this is the thing. And then, this thing, I think, is the thing. Oh, gorgeous. What do you know that you know? I don't know. I kind of like, you can't. Because there's a huge amount of people. like Peyton knew was like, all right, well how are we going to convince Peyton to go from, because it was spring break and I was like, like, you know, you were a jackness, a college tour that he's going to do at Uvo and so, but I want to go skiing, so, hey, simply went, we went to, we went skiing at Elhamados and then, and then we drove and actually we just got his license so he ended up like driving over the past and going in dark while he was raving with all the folks. Strux? And then coming down into Ashland and then, and oh my god was that, he became a pretty good driver and I was like Well It was still And then we spent the night there, and I was just like, well, we didn't do something. And make it fun for paid. So she's not just going to be this towards it. And so I shopped and found shaking places where they did get all of that. So this was a very generic video. It was a little bit better. It was kind of rare. It was like, and then we added up. Yeah. I'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very tired of this. I said, I'm sure you're here. I did see second show. So I took a few things to hear. And then I had one of them that I was personally with the problem with, and they were there. And I was like, this was a grand total of, you were taking advantage of this. You would have made it. So I had to mean this recently. No, that's the first one. I have a question. I'm trying to make a military public hold time. You know, one building hits time. Um, uh, scrap, whatever. You can do it in your passenger room. You can get back in what you want. Uh, there's a stopper. You have to stop it in here. Uh, uh, you will probably be used up all the day to see my goal. You can understand. You can use up all the day you see my goal. You don't understand. You said boys, this doesn't have to end. You use up all the tape on the trees. And you know, the old trees, there are these, those in the fields, at least two dollars, you can use everybody. Hey man, we're just trying to replace this mess and then there you go. We'll be chatting to them. You still have a good place to put it, but you see the stairs? Is that all on there? There's two rooms. Oh, you know, I thought I knew I was going to be talking to you. You know, it's great. You know, it's great. It's a trick. I was thinking this thing, but I didn't want to take away. Is it long? I think they do that there because they have some scale or something. How do you do that? Because they're asking to do that. And don't charge anything. I need to buy. He keeps the key. I was chairing down. We're finding a guy from down in the neighborhood. I'm trying to go to chair. I think that has some of the, like, four-year events. So I feel like it's a huge, ten-year-old thing to start. So the next item is 316 West Blightdale Avenue and just a note this is a study session. So we'll be advising the applicant. We will not be making a specific recommendation during this meeting. So can we have a staff report? Sure. Yeah, this is a study session for 316 West Blightdale Avenue. It's, the project is on a 8400 square foot lot that's mature, has mature redwood trees. It's a vacant lot that was occupied by home up until 2007 when it was demolished. And there's an existing retaining wall that's along the front edge of the street that is within the city's right away. The proposed home would be about 2600 square feet with a two car garage, a 515 square feet at 8U, driveway and parking space within the public right away, front decks, and the rear patio and the proposal is to preserve the mature redwood trees and remove one smaller redwood tree that's about I think six inches in diameter. This is site plan and main floor plan. We can go into these later if we need to. There's a fairly large garage and basement area that occupies the lowest level. The main level includes an ADU on the right side of the building above the garage and storage area. And then the second floor is the bedrooms. And the roof is flat. Colors are stucco, white, gray, black window frames, gray panel sighting, black window frames. And let's see, cedar sighting. So the applicant had some specific questions for the commission to weigh in on, you know, regarding design review, sorry, design guide and compliance, meaning the parking, height, bulk, and mass, and the grading. So how does the commission feel about this project in terms of the design guidelines? And we'll get into this a little bit more. So there's two parking spaces proposed within a garage plus about a 17-foot long space in front of that that could accommodate a compact space. And then there's also a proposed parking space within the city's right of way. One thing we're noting here is that that public parking space is a public parking space because it's within the city's public right away for the street and it must be publicly accessible by retaining the existing retaining wall. It would appear like a private space and wouldn't be very usable to the public and probably discourage public use. So DPW would like to see that retaining wall removed so that it looks more like a public parking space. And that there's a fair amount of excavation required for the access and parking, even though it's not a steep lot, but there's just a lot of material behind the retaining wall and where the driveway and parking and garage is proposed. As far as height, bulk and mass, their projections on the building and color material changes the break of the visual mass, but the building volume is still fairly blocky, and if you look at, you know, kind of take away those sort of projecting elements, there's some massing there that might, you know, the commission may wanna see some, some more adjustments in's some massing there that might, you know, the commission may want to see some more adjustments in the building massing. And of course, you know, when viewed from the front, there's the garage level, and then two stories above that. But in this view, it's taken from above, you know, kind of at the main level, but that's not what you see from the street. So, you know, you're a little bit larger from the street. So the commission should comment on the massing. As far as grading and topographic changes, there's a fair amount of grading proposed here in off-haul for a site that was previously developed with a single family home. Obviously that home was both lighter on the land than this one. There's a lot of basement area that's not necessary to be excavated. That could be removed from that level. Play stale's were on the site and avoid that grading for storage. Stairs that come down to the garage and the mechanical room. So that's a potential area where there could be some reduction in grading. Also, the rear yard patio extends out of ways at the finished level of the main floor. And if that were to step up higher, so I step up a couple feet to that patio level, that would reduce some grading. Potentially, that could be pulled back a little bit from the redwood trees as well to give them a little more breathing room from the retaining walls. Some of those retaining walls are six to eight feet high where that patio would extend back. So if that were raised up and pulled back that could reduce those retaining walls. So take a look at that. And also as I mentioned before the driveway and parking areas could be potentially reduced to cut back on grading as well. And we don't have an arbor support yet but like if said there's some exclamation retaining walls close to some of the trees especially on the left and rear. So we'll learn more when we have a grading and drainage plan and an arbor support. I think the applicant intends to preserve the trees, but it may be necessary to pull things back a little bit just to ensure they're held. So, you know, pending more details on a actual complete design of use in the middle, we can evaluate that information more. But this time the applicant would just like to send input on the proposed design. And the applicant is a planning commissioner with some experience in this area. just like an input on the proposed design. And the applicant is a planning commissioner with some experience in this area. So he understands a lot of these issues, but he's looking for feedback from the commission. With that, yeah, we've received one letter of support from a neighbor on the applicant, has done some outreach with neighbors, but we haven't had any other correspondence yet. So I've summarized issues here, parking, driveway, and the public parking in the right of way. Like I said, that needs to change a little bit to be meeting our standards. As far as height, book, and mass, commissions should weigh in on what you think about what we have here, and also regarding the greeting and retaining laws and topographic changes whether or not the commission field there should be some reduction in that and if you want to make any additional comments about potential tree impacts like I said we don't have a lot of details now but you know I think the commission shares the idea of protecting the tree that's just a matter of learning more about the status of the trees getting on our report and upgrading drainage ground plan to really see how the project would affect them. So that's my brief report and of course the applicant's going to present his project but I'm available for your questions now. Do any commissioners have questions of the staff? Commissioner McGraths. Thanks. Thanks for the report. wondering is there any information about the original house that was there? I wonder if there any lessons to be gained from. I could. I mean I could do some more digging. I didn't think it was relevant given that we have a Bacon site except for some retaining walls. Yeah, I just wasn't sure for example in the middle of the parcel there's some rocks placed down what looks like it could be a seasonal creek and I'd Wanderer if drainage was an issue and maybe that led to I I really don't know. I'll tear it down. Yeah. Maybe, maybe, maybe, I'll have to get a husband. OK. Yeah, I'll ask him to. All right. And then also on parking, just to understand the requirements then, he's essentially got five spaces, two in the garage, two in tandem, and then one off to the side which is in the public right away. So I gather that space on the public right away counts toward is three are required, right? Three spaces are required, one of which can be located in the public right away. And if that space that's in the driveway is, the space is in the driveway in front of the garage may not be deep enough to count toward the actual dimensions for a space either standard or compact. One of them appears to maybe be 17 feet deep which could meet the standard the compact sparking space. So that might be the parking requirements may be met entirely on site just by having three spaces. That was really what I was getting at. One of those tandem spaces could count. Yeah. Yeah. So that other, you know, the space excavated, you know, in the public right away on the other side of the retaining wall, that's not necessary. Okay. Okay, thanks. That's it. Any other questioner? Commissioner Heather Grant. Okay, thanks. That's it. And whether commissioner Heather. So just all that same topic, there's only three required because the ADU doesn't require one. Correct. But the applicant is is wanting to as an amenity to add an additional space. Correct. But if he's not required to tear down the wall, right? No. And it's not because it's legal non-conforming, even though it's in there. And so it's not like DPW is say, no, that's in a right away, you gotta take that away. It's, they're just like amending it. Yeah, we're saying if he's proposing to put a parking space on the other side of that wall, it needs to be a publicly usable space. And if that wall's there, it's going to look like a private space. Right. No, I saw that. But he's not required. He's only, they're just saying you can't put a parking space behind the stone wall in any case, because it's in the right of way. So you can't really do that. Well, you can put a space there with, you know, per DPW's design requirements. Right, which is a remote control. And they're okay with that, but it means make it look like and make it usable to the public. Yeah, okay. But it's not like they're saying you have to take the stone wall away. No. Okay. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a nice amenity, but also it's a narrow stretch of West Bliftele, which is as we know, serves a very large area as a emergency access area. So taking that wall out and making that space deeper for general public access could be good for fire department access and other serve other purposes serve as another parking space available to the neighborhood. So we're not opposed to a space there. I just want to make that clear. Just the current design by keeping a retaining wall which may not be able to keep you, you know, excavate on the other side of it. I don't know how it's designed, but I don't know. That's okay. Okay, I just got to follow up question to. Sure. So the stone wall that's there now is in the public right over the whole thing long street. Okay, and that's more or less in line what he's proposing for a new retaining wall, right? He's planning on keeping the existing retaining wall. Is that what that is? Okay. Okay. I mean, I walked by there all the time. It's a beautiful stone wall. Looks like it's been there a hundred years. So it's kind of part of the neighborhood. Yeah. That's why I'm asking, would be real shame to lose that as even though I don't know when it was built but you don't get that kind of masonry work all day you know every day so it's just one of those things you know if you ask the Department of Public Works yeah take out those those redwood trees because we want this tree to be 16 feet wide or whatever it is it's like I don't know are we designing around are we designing around the automobile? Well, this is keeping the wall and having a space there is still designing around the automobile. It's just designing it such that it really appears as a private space and we don't like to let people do that. No, I understand that. I understand if he's making that a parking place. So that could be, I mean the wall could be sort of removed in that wall material or you could replicate that on other retaining walls that are visible to the public, but just to make that more easy to get in and out for the public if you wanna have that there. And if that's, anyway, that's just, if it weren't a parking space there, then you wouldn't have to excavate more behind the, just leave the wall. Yeah. Okay. So. you wouldn't have to excavate more behind the stone wall. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thanks. Any other questions? Fisherie Ellis? Yeah. Thank you. My only question is regarding the six inch diameter redwood tree, would that require a tree removal permit? No. Thank you. Any other questions? It looks like you're pondering commissioning all this. Oh, you're reading, okay. I'm reading, thank you. Senator Godlin. Just on the, I'm assuming the applicant is going through the study session because it's good practice but also because it's a linchpin for his strategy for moving forward or not with the trees. Without an arborist report, if the trees become an issue, a little bit too far down the line, could you have a little bit of that? So this is a risk of the study session, right? We comment on what's submitted to us, and that's what we have. And the applicant needs to understand, you know, there's no story poll requirement. So we don't have any comments on that. There's a lot of things that we comment on what we have in front of us. It's just to provide feedback. You know, the next stage would be full design of use in middle story polls, you know, a lot more detail review and comments. So it's not like this is the only time you have to comment on this project. Just, I'd say try to respond to the applicant's questions about is this appropriate for creating parking and height building mass, et cetera. The other stuff, I'm just pointing out, we don't know about trees, but I am saying, there's a lot of excavation proposed close to some of these trees, that may be a problem, and we will learn more about that, but I just wanted to highlight that as an issue that we will look at again, more detail of this proceeds. Thank you. Just a little more nuance on that parking space that we've been talking about in the wall. It sounded like from the discussion that A, the wall could stay or and or could it be replaced? Well, let's say there's no parking space back there for just a second, but the wall is there. Yeah, you can keep it well. Yeah, we're okay with that. I mean, I think the opening for the driveway is essentially where it is now. It's just been filled in with dirt or something. Maybe it's a little wider to accommodate this proposed driveway. But what I'm trying to say is that somebody designed a parking space in the public right away with the line this year, you know, we don't want people to make private spaces in the public right away. Right so It sounds like An alternative since he since there are the requisites three cars actually does a potentially fourth one without you in space. So the car count is not the issue. It's the putting a parking space, a private parking space, or visually a private parking space in a public right or right. So just want that that's kind of the distinction. Yeah, and I'm trying to clarify also that this is more or less a DPW Direction it's it's not really something that you need to have a lot of purview in there I think you could represent or reflect that the commission likes the wall You'd like to see the wall remain or as much of it as possible or whatever But what what DPW's policy is here is that They don't want people building private spaces in the public right away. So I think as long as it's designed to accommodate, you know, if you want to have a space there, make sure the public can use it, make it look that way. Okay. Thank you. Well, no further questions. It sounds like. Can we hear from the applicant? Yeah. And just wanted to remind everybody that we do have the clock ticking on the video feed too and it will have to have a delay. We're trying to finish by 9.45 if possible. Is that what you're in? Yeah 9.40 if we can. What happens if we go over? They know off the pause for a few minutes or start a new recording. Oh, okay. Good evening, commissioners. Kevin Skiles speaking on behalf of the proposed project here for new home and ADU, 316 West Blightedale. The rendering that's in your pack is, I would say a little cartoonish. And so I have a rendering here. I would appreciate if we comment I'll be happy to go back and forth between these slides. But these we've been able to move a little further along since those drawings were developed. So I think this is a little better representation of what we have proposed in the plans in a 3D visual. So the site. It's not moving forward. Did I just hit this to make it go forward? Let me see if it's all on. I'll move it forward for you. Oh, OK, perfect. So the site is one of these really magical mill valley redwood forested sites in the canyons. It's got some pretty incredible Redwood trees that are up in this part of the site that really all of the adjoining neighbors enjoy. I mean there's this kind of untouched forested area here and those were parts of the site where I felt you know the strategy would be to protect them. Abs you know don't touch them and really focus the efforts for developing the site in the open flat sunny area where the prior home was located as well and which is away from the trees. There's also a grove of redwoods down here that straddle the property line between 325 and the subject property. Those also, I thought, you know, quite important to protect those and to keep the home in the area that's away from that and keep the driveway access away from areas where there'd have to be excessive cutting into potential root areas of those trees. The rock wall that is a long west-blightedale is fantastic and absolutely the strategy is to keep as much of that as possible. Just riffing off the conversation that was just being had, I would much rather lose this parking space than lose part of this wall. If where we land tonight is you don't need that many parking spaces, that would be the sacrificial. And you just keep more of the wall and keep the entrance to the driveway, the minimum that it needs to be to get through the wall. And then the home itself is being in the location we described is downhill from the two side yard neighbors. Their homes are up higher on the hill, which allows for great privacy between the side yards. And really, I think the balance, which I would love your opinions and comments on tonight, is we have a balance between, and this section shows it kind of well, how much the home is nestled and bunkered into the site is particularly at the lower level to keep the height down. Right now we are well under the double setback 35 foot height for the tallest part of the home, and we're well under the 25 foot height limit for the single setback parts of the home and we're well under the 25 foot height limit for the single set back parts of the home. But I agree with the staff report that that results in more cut and off haul than we probably typically see on a home with a 20% slope lot. And so that's something I think I'd love to get some feedback on is is this achieving the right balance or would we rather see the home? I don't think the home is going to move further back in the site or further forward because of setbacks and Requirements for dimensions of driveway and garage etc But the home probably could go up a little bit and have less cut. And I think similarly, the driveway could be a little more sloped. And then the garage floor, the garage story, wouldn't need to be as tall. But again, that would mean losing probably this parking space because then you don't really have a flat. This would be kind of a ramp instead of a flat garage. So those are because of the trade-offs I'm looking for in the discussion that you'll have. And then I think the other, so yeah, it's height and off-all and parking and off-all. And then I think just to go through, yeah, here's's the runner in the shows materials. Both the neighbors have commented that they like the design in the way it protects the privacy to the side yard and that they didn't think that the height was excessive. As an example, if you're standing on this, just this weekend I was over here, I stood on this balcony. The highest part of this home will be at the underside of that balcony. And so it really will be able to look over the home and not be visually impacted. And really this part of the home, which is the closest to this neighbor, is four feet lower. So it's quite a bit below this deck level. The home that's over here, the bank of Redwoods that's along that property line is so dense that they will not even be able to see the home. When we were on this site, we couldn't even see the house because of the density of the trees. Really quickly on the trees, definitely in our, you know, in our worst report is going to be required. I'm confident just with my many years of building around redwood trees that the footprint of the home is outside the drip lines for these trees. And so really all that would be adjusted per the arborist report would likely be the location of these walls that are creating the patio space. And if you've been to the site, you'll see that for these trees, this land was benched. So there's a pretty significant cut in the grade, approximately where these walls are already. And so I believe the Arbor support, I'll work with them to determine the exact boundaries with the roots and everything. But I think there will be some amount of retaining walls that will be allowed there to still have those trees be healthy. And then the footprint of the home is significantly outside the drip line of the redwood, so I don't believe that will be an impact. And you know, typically we use peer and grade beams in homes like this for the deeper roots to not be affected at all. This one single redwood right here, I thought it would be nice to have that in the deck, I'll have like a 1970s mill valley home, you build the deck around the tree. Obviously the arborist would have to give me the blessing to do that. If that's not okay, then we would just have a smaller outdoor deck and not have it engage with the tree. But I've always kind of loved that about throwback mill valley homes when you go out on somebody's deck and there's a huge redwood tree in the middle of it. Going back to the rendering, so materials we're going to, we're wanting to use permeable papers for the driveway. This is that parking space we're talking about and with the comment from DPW, I would probably be inclined to have the driveway. This is that parking space we're talking about and with the comment from DPW, I would probably be inclined to have the driveway not include this parking space and just have so that we still continue to have this wall. And then the massing breakdown, so I think the original rendering didn't have this second story stepped back from the first story as we now have it. And similarly, the area over here where there is a two-story wall, it's now been broken up with this large overhang of the deck and the chimney that provides, let me see if this is on the... Yeah, the chimney that breaks up the mass so that it's not so long as a two-story plane. And that could be done with a different material. I think that's an opportunity to probably use, you know, a different kind of material, a darker color, or something like that to break up that mass. With that, I don't really have any other things to present. I think I'm kind of curious to hear what your thoughts are on. The strategy and the height, bulk, balance with the off-haul and the parking balance with the off haul, and then just any comments on the architecture and design review guidelines. Do any commissioners have questions of the applicant? Just has a general question. Kevin, I think as Commissioner Sringer's saying this. Thank you. As Commissioner Sringer alluded, I think we understand, the situation you're in where you're under contract on this. And you've just mentioned what you'd like us to touch on, but are there any things like really in particular that would be most helpful for us to really focus on with detail? Well, I think the site strategy is kind of, there really isn't a lot of different ways of locating a home on this property and so I think kind of Blessing this site strategy, you know and the size the height, you know how how the home is organized with a Garage level that's nest you know that's built into the hill with the home on top. I mean, that's a strategy I've done with several homes in Mill Valley. We've seen it several times. It's kind of a classic. But I think that's kind of fundamental, I think, to solving the riddle on this one is to having that be the way we do it. But I would like you to confirm you agree, I guess. Sorry, just two more informational items. My set of drawings didn't print very well and I can't tell what your lot coverage in FAR are. Do you know what they are of hand please? The site data tables attachment one to the report and it's glasses. I'm going to read something this small now. Let me hold the foie over here. Yeah, you might need to. 22% and the maximum allowable for is 2841 and 2617 is proposed and does that exclude the ADU for? Correct. Yeah, that's the homes floor area and then the ADU is what at 515 or something. Right. Yeah, so we're about a hunt what a 180 feet under or 200 feet under the max FAR and but then we have the ADU. Wait, what was the FAR, was the actual ratio? Oh, ratio, I would be... So a lot of coverage is 22% right? Yeah. And the FAR, the actual ratio there is... I don't know, we don't. 2800 divided by 86, right? What's the math I can do real quick? Like 26, 17 divided by 28. By 26 17 divided by 26. 28 6 400 right? So 84 oh six is the lot area. Okay 31 30 yeah. Thank you. Yep. Okay 31 30 yeah, thank you. Yep Thank you Commissioner McGrath's That really is a beautiful lot and that stone wall. I just I Picture asked there so I like what you're trying to achieve here and Couple of questions then Well first of all do you know anything about the original house? I just wondered for your own benefit if there's any less than to be learned about the no, I don't know anything about it Okay, I was wondering whether there's some I do know about the original house, I just wondered for your own benefit if there's any less than to be learned about the- No, I don't know anything about it. Okay, I was just wondering whether there's some- I do know about the rock formation, the little creek- Dry creek bed. So the neighbor up here told me that at some point the- The prior owner to this home owned this lot and was starting to kind of landscape it the way they wanted and they wanted kind of a dry creek bed and that's what that is. And it's not a creek. It's kind of a landscape rocked feature. I think they were hoping that it would maybe eventually if they kept working on it. Turn into a creek. Then I also noticed on the rock wall there's a newer portion. I think that was filled in when the old house is torn down. There was a driveway there which you're now looking to excavate but there's a newer portion of the stone wall and is that where the gap is there? It is. So that is not part of the original wall. That appears to me to be loose rock that was stacked up to hold in the dirt. To hold the dirt that would not be part of the masonry wall. And this is a detail, but on the lower right side, you've got this kink in the driveway. That seems like it's asking for an arant teenager backing up dad's car to back into that. And I'm wondering is that to preserve the piece of the old stone wall you've got there? Is there some other constraint? I think this is my idea with having a little bit of area here is to allow cars to back up so that you don't have to back into West Blightdale. Because while West Blightdale is not that busy of a street, there's cooking down there. And a lot of bicyclists do and this is at a downhill. And a lot of mountain bikers use this. I would not want to back up. And you know, did away with the fifth parking space over there, is there still room to turn around? Yeah, you would use this space. For the cars that are like the parked here on the driveway, no, they would have to back out. But a car that's in the garage would be able to use this turning motion. Okay. And again, the kink in the wall and the lower right then that's to preserve the stone wall. Oh, yes. Okay, yes. Okay. And I guess the main issue I saw was the off haul and you know that we're aiming for, you know, as little as possible, but you had 430 cubic yards, which is beyond where we usually aim. So I think, you know, there's no single, whether it's that matrix showing the attribution of the off haul versus the function. So there's no one thing that is the dominant contributor to it. But it does seem like that would be an issue, I think, and there are a variety of ways on this lower level you could deal with that. I think, for example, not having that fifth parking space. Any idea how much off-haul that would save you? Yes, this particular spot right here is like 60 yards. Okay. Oh, it's something. It's not huge. But okay, I'm sort of fishing around curious what you guys say, but mainly the off-haul was a key issue and I think you've got to do as DPW is saying you can't carve out that private parking space on public land. Anyway, I may have other stuff. I just wanted to get going with that. Any other questions? Commissioner Hullabrat. You've got the ADUs on that one side there. But that's not, you're not doing minimum ADUs set back on that property line, right? You're doing a typical minimum set back. And I was just, you would ask about site strategy. It looks like you'd dimensioned it at the bathroom at six foot and some change. So it's a little bit less than the eight feet that would be required if it wasn't an ADU, but it's more than you. The minimum would be four feet, right? You can go four feet to a property line for an ADU. But the ADU is not too story. It's just one level. So the house above it wouldn't be four feet. Correct. So it's stepped back. So what? No, the. Oh, so you've moved that over. So that's that is six feet. And it's closest. I believe it's like six foot two or four, whatever's in the plans, because that's the ADU. This is set back. And that's where you get to 8 feet? Yeah, the full set back. Oh, okay. Exactly. And then what about what's the rule on the garage? It's gotta be the 8 feet too. Okay. I mean, the minimum I would, it could have told me is what you did. The garage wall, even if it's the foundation for the ADU. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't quite hear that answer. Could you go to that again? The question about the garage. The garage must meet the regular building setback. The ADU could meet a four foot setback. Well, he's trying to stack it, so that makes it a little hard when you're doing a site strategy. But that's why I was just trying to ask some questions about what your site strategy was on the property line there with a setback to help me understand. Yeah, that's, I mean, I think what Steve brings up is a potential issue where I would have to set this back and cannelly with Haiti or something. If that's the way that's interpreted, I don't know if that is good. The garage is not required for an ADU, so the garage is not subject to a minimum ADU setback required. Right. So it's just because it's. Kevin, where is the this rendering is a little different than A1.1, as you mentioned it, you've progressed a little bit. Where's the existing, because that's not the existing opening in the stone wall, which is more in the center of the property, right? So you're, you're going to want to put it where it works with the driveway. So you're- Oh, this one- Rebuilding it or are you using that existing opening? That is the existing opening. Okay, so that's not exactly what's drawn on A1.1 shows it off to the side. Yeah, I think A1.1 is not as accurate as the survey. Yeah, it is drawn. The idea is that the opening that's there is going to be the open space. Oh, okay, great. So you're trying to keep it, and even though it's a small opening, it's enough to meet the rules. It looks fabulous. That piece of property is fabulous. So, all right. So the goal is, so the goal is to keep it wall. Don't look at A1.1. It's not like you're going to move the opening and then reuse the stone and try to build it back. You're going to try to keep it as it is. We're going to keep it as it is. We're going to keep it. Okay. That's awesome. All right. So that was my main question. And then, you know, I think the way you've located a house down the hill, and we can talk more about the other stuff. But I agree that maybe that back patio needs to tear us a little bit potentially to deal with low line routes that head out horizontal. And then storage room, you know, I wonder the question is based on staff's comments about that seems like a lot of excavation there. The commitment I would definitely make is that I didn't size any equipment at all at this point. And so I can make that the mechanical room in the storage room as small as they possibly can be to still hold any water, cisterns, and battery backups I'm doing and I'm sure it can be smaller than what's shown right now. All right, that's all I have for now. Okay. I just, I have a couple of questions following up on the setback on the, I guess it at the drawings, I thought that was a very clever strategy of the ADU taking advantage of a lesser setback and then set up the house back. But now that we discovered that unfortunately the garage needs to go back to the full setback. Do you have any thoughts about that? It seems that take it, your garage width is probably minimum, so the whole thing, I don't have to shift over. What are your thoughts about that? Because that's of all the setbacks and heights and the basic requirements, that edge is the most clever and the most sort of, it hits all the different, the garage, the ADU, and the main house, what do you think? Yeah, what I think will happen is you're right, the garage will slide over, that doesn't meaningfully change the driveway access to everything, because it's only, I believe, one foot eight or two feet that it needs to slide over. I would imagine, so this wall right now has a pop out and then it goes back. So I would imagine this wall would probably slide over with the garage, but this would probably stay where it is because that isn't, that's on grade. So along that, by the time you get to hear, this foundation for this back part of the first story, it's like on grade. It's not above the, you know what I mean? It could be its own foundation outside of the garage, because it's not, once you get to about here, this is grade. This is on grade. It's only here where it's up on top of the garage. So this wall would probably slide over with the garage, but at this point that foundation would be where it is. So I don't believe that would move. So I'm looking at 820 that line is also extends back as mechanical and storage. So I guess this might be a question for Steve and or the applicant about oh like can you build a basement and a setback? Can you build a business? I'm looking at the site plan, a 1.1, and it's showing the 8 foot 6 inch setback, and it shows the main level compliant with that except for the year-end bathroom projection. It's only the bathroom. You're right. I'm sorry guys. I forgot. I'm in the garage. We fixed that setback as well. We fixed that problem guys. Sorry I forgot. I'm the garage. We fixed that setback as well. We fixed that problem guys. Sorry about that. I'm confusing you guys. It's only this bathroom that is closer to the side yard. It's only this bathroom that's taking advantage of the ADU setback. Okay. The rest of it is not. Sorry. I didn't. Oh, that's that's a good, that's a good clarification. So the project's in the office. Just to recap that, that east side wall, except for the pop out for the bathroom is compliant. Yeah, that's the top. So the E.D.U., the garage, and the house. Is that correct? I think the pop out's compliant too, because it's part of the E.D.U. Oh, OK. And it's that grade. It's like here. So it would be a foundation outside of that basement. Yeah. Well, the corner of the living room of the ADU, that is an eight foot six. If that's the corner of the garage. Yes. That's the minimum eight, six. Right there. Yeah. So that's the minimum. Right there. Yeah. So that's the minimum setback. Right. That's a compliance setback for the size of the line. The front corner is going to be eight. Yes. Okay. So it looks like the site plan just needs to be updated then. It's not like I just glanced at the clock. It's 9.45. Do we need to take a break right now? I can check and see if you guys. I just glanced at the clock. It's 9.45. Do we need to take a break right now? I can check and see if you guys... We'll take a break because of the technology here. Make sure we have enough tape to... Before this for posterity. You want to get to the neighbor. You know, if there's public comments too. We're about ready to make a transition to public comments here so maybe that's a good. Looks like we have another question. Are we going to keep going? Are we at a take now? If you want to record it, let's pause and re-reboot. Yeah, because we might just miss it a little bit. No, it's because he in order to record this on the hard drive or whatever. He needs to swap out something to continue recording. So we're on pause. Yeah. So maybe take a two minute break and come back if you want. Two or just stores. Welcome. Hard storage got used to have fun. Tree discussion. You filled up the hard drive. It's like off-holed data off-holed. You would have to read from the beginning. We'd still be going. You did the sketch. You could have just given the sketch of the trees in the planters. That would have been the end of it. Exactly. It's his fault. I don't know. Somehow it's probably Steve Rouse's fault. Oh, thank you. That's quick. All right. We lost the other applicant. Yeah. So we're back on tape and back in session. Do we have any other questions for the applicant? Is that a yes? Commissioner Eoles? Yeah. Questions? Let me have a real question for the applicant. Kevin, you know, I'll deliberate on this, but just ask a question. I mean, this is a super special spot in Mill Valley, like one of the quintessential canyons, and you know, there's a lot of spectacular homes and landscape. There's those two lamps, you know, to the east of it, right on that rock wall, the spectacular rock wall. There's those, this kind of magical ferngrove to the West. Just curious to what extent all that figured in as you came for, put together this proposal. I know you didn't have as much time as you probably wanted, but just kind of curious to what extent context and site and both natural and build all figured into what we're seeing tonight. Yeah, it has everything to do with it. I mean, I thought the most important part, I've been to the site probably about 25 times in the last six months. And this, the light at different times of the day back in here, and I mean, I've like laid down on the, you know, pine, the redwood lead needles and stared up. And I mean, preserving this as untouched as possible is just absolutely fundamental, I think, to the strategy here. And then the other thing that's really beautiful is the late afternoon kind of canyon light that comes filtered through all of these trees is really pretty magical. And you get some of it, and maybe in March, April, and October, November coming straight from the South, but mainly I think it's this Western light. And so a lot of the windows, a lot of the rooms are oriented to take advantage of that light. So the kitchen as an example has glass on three sides. The this corner window for living dining kitchen, we'll receive a lot of that light. Then on the upper floor, the primary bathroom and the primary bedroom have again two sides of light on that. So, yeah, that's... Yes. Can I refocus my question a little bit? Yes. I guess, to what extent did you factor in, especially like the built environment, when thinking about doing a flat roofed, more modern, highly articulating, highly diverse material colors came versus something that's frankly I'm not saying you should do something very traditional like everything around it necessarily but to what extent did all that figure into the design approach not just site strategy what you're talking about. You talked about the context with the neighborhood when you go down that street. Context with the material surrounding the car. Other architectural materials, for sure. In this part of the canyon, there's a lot of shingled homes. As an example, there's a lot of homes that have more traditional roofs, either gamble roofs or pitched roofs, for sure, craftsmen-styled roofs. That's something that's really important. I've done that before. I mean, 23 Jains is an example of that. That's a modern house with a very craftsman, styled roof and overall form. Your question was how much did I think about it and how I think about it is really, I wanna make those beautiful, elegant house I can that takes advantage of all the natural beauty and then I wanna have a landscape program that either Doesn't spoil anything in the case of the rear uphill part of the yard or Compliments it really beautifully in the in this part of the yard. I clearly haven't gotten there yet I mean we haven't really spent any time on that But if you look at the at the property next door they have a beautiful beautiful garden and I would like to continue kind of their or they have a beautiful, beautiful garden. And I would like to continue kind of their garden strategy throughout our front yard. And that I think would be a way of really honoring that part of the block. You keep the rock wall, match their beautiful garden with our front yard, which I believe we can, because we've got a good amount of area here. And that to me would be the way of integrating with the neighborhood. Thank you. I'll sit. One more question. One more question. I'm really dug in on the retaining walls in the backyard six to eight feet. It says here. I think like right here might be six to eight feet. These are more like three and a half to four feet. Okay. Yeah. I was curious how much digging you're doing. This seems a lot more. The site is taller here than it is here. Yeah. And have you thought about terracing that somehow or where you did get up to 168 feet? I think it would just all depend on the arborists' report. I mean, we would like to have the most amount of usable flat patio back there while still protecting the trees. And no one can see any of this from the street or either side yard so it isn't like it violates kind of our designer view guidelines about not having large retaining walls and you can see from the street. So it really only be the residents of this home and see it. Okay and then I think final question on the off-haul issue again and you touched on it earlier the mechanical room and the storage room behind the garage or next to it. What are your thoughts on trying to reduce off haul by changing those? Yeah, I'll commit to making those as small as they possibly can be to locate the equipment I want to have in there, which is you know battery backup and water systems. So, which I know it can be smaller than what's shown. So right now I'm showing it just lining up below the floor above. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'll disengage that. Okay. You know, as best as I can. You think grey water, recycled water when you say, it's a system? Like fresh water for irrigation and things like that. I don't know if we'll do a full grey water system where we're using water from shower and laundry and things like that to store it. But storm water, what's storm water? Yeah, storm water attention. For purpose of emergency water and also irrigation. I know it's early in your design, but I'm wondering if it would be helpful for us to talk about some range of off-haul that would be appropriate. We've done that with other applicants. Maybe we can come back to that in our deliberation. I would say less. Yeah, well that'll just be... Maybe if we deliberate on that, we might have a series of ideas and then we can circle back and see which one stick. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I just want to ask one question, so I understand the site strategy now it relates to the. So this stair that you see on the lower level, that stair goes all the way down and becomes the back of the garage. Yeah, so that's so you can, yeah, exactly. Get up to the main home from the garage, yep. Right, so that was one of Steve's staff's comments about that. Having that stair there is a significant amount of grading to the stair and the storage which then stacks. Does the storage stack under the full ADU? The storage back wall is, yeah, is that exactly. So you're- But that's what I was just saying. I will commit to disengaging that didn't make the storage as small as possible Okay, and it's not it's not the that's the perimeter of the ADU basically Right now that lower yes basement. Yes Okay, and with regards to the stair. I mean You can't go you can't go out and go up around well you can't go out through a garage door You'd have to put a mandor in which means now you're getting wider by three feet. So that doesn't really help Okay One more question Kevin I'm glad to hear you talking about you know possibly lifting up the home a little bit and maybe receding it, setting it back a little bit further and whatnot. I guess I'm curious in that spirit. By the way, the home generally, I mean, if you can show a section where the height is toward the front, the max height is toward the front rather where the front is toward the max height is toward the front rather than the rear I think optimally I think we don't like to see that the opposite. I'm just curious within that spirit of lifting up and maybe setting back a touch and maybe pushing high back if you consider inverting the floor plan and that way and with the that way you'd have the open space, the common area potentially contiguous with the rear outdoor yard space, indoor outdoor access so you could still have your rear yard program. But obviously you're living your bedrooms down on the floor floor. On an upslope lot, you typically don't do that. You see the inverted floor plan using a downslope lot. I mean, it's not that it's impossible, but it's less common. I don't know, upslope lot. I'm trying to think about if I've ever done that. I don't like that. I can picture like a central stairway going pretty much straight up, you know, better down the side and you go up and you go right up into, you know, skylight. Yeah, the question is that I consider, and I didn't, on an absolute plot, I kind of like have a, but, but, I mean, I understand I get, I get to do it. I get the conventional view and feeling and whatnot, which I, you know, but just a thought because I, yeah, where I think the real opportunity is now that I don't need to have this so mellow because it's not accessing a parking space that's tucked behind that wall. This can be more aggressive and this whole thing probably goes up to 1.5 feet. And so all of this off-haul is no longer there. Because this is oversized because of this. If this goes up up that solves a Fair bit of where you say where you say you think the garage enters how relative to gray? Do you think you know if it enters like here like two two and a half feet up and then you just have a modestly sloped Drive away. It need to be Where as far forward as it is or do you think it could? You've pushed it back then. There's more awful so I or do you think it could? You've pushed it back then there's more off-all. So I think keeping the minimum distance between the garage door and the property line is important. Because otherwise you get... You start pushing it back further into the hill. Oh yeah, I guess the section shows it. Do you have any sense for how much off-haul you reduce by getting rid of that on site or that parking space behind the wall and what you're talking about. Just 60 yards. But then it affords you the opportunity to make this steeper and then this whole thing comes up another two, let's call it two feet. I mean the combination of those moves, are you be saying 16? The combination of those moves could be well over 120, maybe 150. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, could be well over 120, maybe 150. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it could be significant. Thank you. Okay, I think I'll save some of my additional comments for deliberations and in this point see if it's okay with everybody. See if there's anybody wishing to speak on this item and if so, please state your name and address and take about three minutes. I'm Suzie Ann Childress and we're at 350 Cordomadera Avenue, which is across the street. So it's our backyard and side yard that this house will be sitting behind us. So, and I have to say it's beyond impressive what you guys are doing. First off, I'm just blown away by the depth and the questions and the knowledge. So I've just given your time in doing this is amazing. So thank goodness for you guys. The comments you've made, I just think are wonderful. So I would say I love that the trees are being kept and that they're a huge factor in this design because they're a huge part of the canyon and our house has a lot of trees that we've worked really hard to protect and that we care very much about. And I actually like the house sitting a little lower because of how it will feel to our house. So, but I love the stone wall and I agree that it's an important factor in keeping it I would even like to see a little landscaping in there and I don't think the additional parking space will ever be used by anyone Just the flow of humans and traffic in there. It just wouldn't be somewhere people would park so I don't think that would be a necessary factor. Well, there's been a lot. So the trees are wonderful how you're working them in and protecting them. And I agree the back of that house is just magical or back of where it'll be sitting. And besides Sean and Catherine and I think it's really beautiful I would love a tiny buffer between us and The house where the stone wall is right now there's landscaping and if there were some trees in there That would be really nice to kind of soften the impact often the impact. And I do remember the existence, we've lived in our current property for 15 years. And so I was there when they took that house down. And it was a small house, and it sat facing toward the east. And the driveway is off center. I mean, it seems where you have a located, is the is off center. I mean, it seems where you have it located is the little off center. And the rocks were part of landscaping that the former couple who owned that house for a long time up above lived. There is a lot of water flow during the rainy season. I mean, it's downhill. We're further downhill to the creek. So it was a fairly small or I wouldn't even want to guess on square footage, but I guess it was pretty small. Yeah, so I might vote for a little more off-haul, keeping the house a little lower. But I don't know how that'll end up coming out with protecting the land behind the Brockwall. So I don't know. That's a hard one. I would agree. Let's see. Yeah, I guess the only thing I do have some comments on is the design. Let's see. Yeah, I guess the only thing I do have some comments on is the design. And it was mentioned by all of you, and I think about the manner drive house discussion and some of the comments made. And I know you're early on in the planning phase of this. It will be overlooking our house and our yard and so like I mentioned there are a lot of windows on the front and how that reads for both properties I think is important and I think there's a lot going on in the design. Full confession, I'm a designer and I work on a lot going on in the design. Full confession, I'm a designer. And I work on a lot of projects in town. So I love the idea that you guys brought up with the Manor House of Simplifying and keeping it more elegant. There's a couple other modern houses in the area that I think have done a really nice job of that that kind of fit in and feel a part of things. So I just feel like there's a little more going on. We'd like to see. Since we have so few people coming together to close out, you know I'm just a little bit longer, but if you could keep it. I'm passing my time. You're putting a bit of a pastoral time time but I don't think we have it. It wouldn't be the first time. I was in a journey too so. Well then we're going to cut you off right now. I was in environmental attorney. You know that? I'm in a way. But so anyway, I would just say, you know, I love all the thoughtfulness being put into protecting a lot of aspects of the property. I just love to see the design worked a little more into keeping with the neighborhood and the feeling of the area. Thank you very much. Is there anyone else that has comments? I see none. So at this point, we'll close the public hearing and bring it back to the Planning Commission for deliberations. I wonder if I might lead off because I'd love to get some response to what I have to say. Is that okay with folks? Yeah, because I do want to talk a bit about context, a little more about context. And, you know, by the way, I assume Vice Chair Sirengel, you know, since this is a study session, we can, some degree, have some interactivity here, comments, responses, either ongoing or at the end. Okay, great. So just to provide a little bit of background. So I've had been coming to New Valley for 37 years, mountain viking since I was about 18 years old and coming to the railroad grade, which is just, I don't know, quarter mile past this site. And so this has always been, I mean, when I came here, it's just such a quintessential part of this town and just as very magical that canyon is just so magical to me and has great memories. But it's also just beautiful. I mean, the Reblitz are really spectacular and magical and it really makes Mill Valley what it is. And it's one of like, to me, like the two primary canyons like that. And you know this area you know is really really unique and special and has a lot of charm to you know. And as I mentioned you've got those street lamps just a short distance to the west you know like on the neighboring property and that ferngrove on the property to the, sorry, that was east and then to the west and, you know, the homes like, you know, there's a lot of very special homes that, you know, everything is new around here compared to the east coast and certainly compared to Europe. But if there was an old world charm ofville Valley, this is kind of it. And it makes me think back to the discussion that we had around that flag pull shape lot home on Throckmorton, which actually was a modern flat roof home. But what was unique about that, and remember that drew a lot of the historic preservation folks from the area out. It drew a lot of them out out and they were very concerned. And the reason I think at least I and I think others did not jump on that bandwagon more was because that home was in sconce deep within a massive redwood grove and you really couldn't see it from virtually any other property. I don't think that's going to be the case here. I mean, it sounds like great. Like you're going to really try to landscape it and bring some of that garden over and do more, obviously more than we're seeing here now and removing that parking turnaround, which by the way would be one of the only ones around with a turnaround. I think with a mirror, you can be safe across the street. And even if you're backing out, not have that issue very few homes have a turnaround in this area. Although I do know that home, you know, bikers do pick up speed going down that hill as they're going toward the grade. I'm one of them, but I think, you know, people will get used to it. You'll have a mirror where you can look out if you're reversing out. So I just want to point out that I think really, especially for your benefit, Kevin, because I do think something obviously work here, and I think it's a very special site. But I think to be careful about those same kind of people who live in and around this neighborhood coming out, saying, am I going to be very clear? I do not have a design type, you know, a style that I think does belong here, but I think you should be really careful, frankly, about something that feels a lot more modern in this area for fear that you're going to get, you're going to pull some people out of the woodwork with something like this. And I do want to read because this is not me. This is our design guidelines talking here. But I just want to read two or three lines. You know, the guidelines are based on an approach that takes into consideration the interrelationship of individual houses with the neighborhood. Guidelines are provided direction for the planning design and site planning design and neighborhood compatibility and then just one more real quick. The design of Singapore Family Development should be compatible with the natural and built character of the surrounding neighborhood. And this to me would be very unique and very distinct as proposed. Again, I think you're going to hide a lot of it with landscaping. But what I am seeing, frankly, stylistically does not really jive. And I'm not saying you should build A, B, or C. But to me, I'm just concerned that this, for me, I don't think contextually relation, in terms of the relationships with the adjacent properties, it works very well. I think this design could really work in a lot of other places, but frankly not here. So I do want to be just very straightforward about that and hopefully helpful, assuming you move forward. As far as the height, I think I made a point about the height. I really do feel like the max height should ideally move up toward the rear. I have not studied your program in detail. But I do think I hope you'll spend a minute and maybe others will care on that inverted site plan. It doesn't have to be an inserted site plan. I think to do what the guidelines call for doing, which is stepping up into hillsides a little more than this does. That mask, that height and mass toward the front, I don't think is where it belongs. And I think we heard some concern already from from some potential neighbors about how they feel about that I don't think they want someone kind of more peering down. I think if it was back and up into the hillside more They would probably feel better and so would anybody kind of passing by again. I know you'll screen it you would screen it a lot Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, sloping roofs, by the way, virtually every home, I drove it today just to double check, has some form of sloping roof in this canyon. And I really think you want to think closely about trying to, you know, do some form of roof slope, especially, you know, not, doesn't have to be entirely bit up and away from the street so that it, you know, it pulls back and away and steps down and we've talked a lot about that on other homes and projects, you know, again, respecting the general context of neighborhoods and, you know, you've been a part of those discussions. As far as a couple of the specific things, we talked about parking, so yeah, I don't know together again. Yeah, I mean, again, I think it, you know, just to talk a little bit, I mean, it doesn't suffer from a lack of articulation, materiality, color, but I do think it actually suffers because of it a little bit. And I think I made those points earlier, so I won't repeat that. But I think there's a lot going on here that goes fine and well actually other places. But I think something much more subtle. And again, with more earth tones that recede more into the background would be more appropriate in this location. Just to speak to a couple of the things Steve brought up, we talked about, I believe we talked about parking, we talked about the driveway, I guess I've spoken about height, not so much about bulk, but I don't per se have an issue with bulk or mass. So long as again, I think it works hopefully a little more back and up into the hillside. I definitely think we've talked about potentially getting 150 cubic yards of grading out of there which would take it down to the 250 range. You know you're talking now about 50 trucks instead of what's probably about 75 trucks. Again, and we've also talked about other things, I think mechanical storage, et cetera. I mean, I think it's still a lot of trucks running all the way through town, even though you are right on Blightdale, and they should be able to turn around before they come by the site and load up. That's a lot of trucks running through town, and obviously we want to minimize it and having talked to elected officials before. You know, it takes a lot of toll on our roads every time we add trucks. So I think your efforts to reduce that as much as possible would be appreciated. And we also talked about the retaining wall. And I'll just end on that saying, you know, I think the retaining wall, and as you have commented, is really one of the special features of the site and deserves being preserved much like that home over here on Throckmorton across from beer works or what are the former beer works. Really, I don't know if folks, everybody's kind of admired that home lately, but it really helped preserve the charm and just the history of that home, even though they did do in that case a bit of a modern design. But again, it's closer to town where there's to me a lot more eclectic design than in a location like this. Happy to respond to any questions you may have if and when we get there. Any other commissioners? Commissioner Heldman. You've put a lot of work into this, and I appreciate the fact that you're pulling it towards the street to save the growth. So I think pushing it back, I don't know how he could push it back and have any usable space behind that without damaging the redwood trees, even with pears and gray beams. But I think my first impression is the amount of stucco for this part of town. And I guess my first thought was, you know, could you, because you've already got the concrete down below from the garage, and the whole thing is very vertical just because of putting the garage into the house, which is the right thing to do. But my thought was if you could have the lower level, be a plent, say, where you did use Stucco, but maybe not having that kind of third level of a cementitious finish, it just makes it very massive in appearance. And so, and, you know, I don't have a problem with a modern home here, and because I think, and I appreciate the comments that you made is how can you simplify this and then the gray stucco is going to feel like the base and then if you could change the material up above and I understand you're trying to get the contrast. I mean, not quite sure what to call it element but it's almost like that knuckle that we were talking about before where that knuckle in that original scheme when he came in, it was the stair tower and it was the elevator and it was the taller one in the middle. You know, I wonder, because that's kind of like a monitor skylight in a way, right? You're trying to get the light in there over the entry, which is a cool idea, but I'm wondering, is there, because I think that gives the impression to the neighborhood and the city scape as you're going down, is it really creates a tower element there that becomes more massive, I think. And I'm wondering if there's a way to get this a little bit more low slung in appearance and simplified without losing, I don't think it has to have a pitch roof. I just think that creating a simplified version. But you've got, I mean, you've got a thoughtful plan, I think you're the comments you asked about. We already talked about item one and your questions. We kind of resolved that with the parking. The high-pulking mass of the home meets the design guidelines. I think it needs to be adjusted. I wouldn't want to make it any taller just because it's so far up in the face of and I think we are going to have a lot of time to talk about that. the design guidelines, I think it needs to be adjusted. I wouldn't want to make it any taller just because it's so far up in the face of, and I think you know, you've, your neighbors made a really good comment that that's really going to be prominent when viewed from, quote, a Madera Avenue and Madera Avenue and because it is so close to the street, is it how could you get that upward level to not even though you're floor to floor heights are reasonable? It just, some of that might be material, but I think some of that is also that tower. And then the amount of grading, the other comment on the grading, I mean my gut would say that storage room should go away. And if you really, I can see the logic of why you have the stair there. And I know staff had recommended maybe getting rid of the storage room and the stair, but if you have the garage and you don't have to have this high of ceiling in there, so it grades up to the house, so it's not like cutting the driveway. And you have the, so then the driveway, then maybe that's part of the problem with the verticality is that you've got a very tall garage door. And so if that's a little bit more linear looking rather than be so vertical, and then the ADU glazing that kind of punched window there, its proportions are again really vertical and the two punched windows up above there are pretty vertical. So everything is kind of stretched into a tall mass. But I don't know, it just having that storage room back there just seems excessive. If you just locked that off and we compromised then you had the stair because that does make sense to communicate here without having to cut a hole in the side of the garage and And then just look at materials I Think it's that's all I want to hear what my fellow architect has to say Commissioner McQuist could you chime in first? Yeah, sure. I agree this is a beautiful location and a historic one too. And you probably know the mountain railway used to come, you know, right? Maybe is that the bridge? I was going to ask you that. There's a mountain railway bridge that is now a footpath in your front yard and it comes you know your future house would overlook. Can you walk it? Well they can. It's a private park. A U-cam. From from from Corda, Madera you can you can look and see these massive girders underneath their footbridge and it's a beautiful piece of milvalley history. I'm glad you've got it there. And your site, Kevin, is just so picturesque. I think honoring all of that as you're aiming to do is great. The main issue for me, again, off-haul. I think we've identified a handful of things, but just for clarity, I wanna mention things we've discussed, ditching the fifth parking spot, perhaps raising the level of the garage and steepening the driveway bit, and then you mentioned shrinking these storage and mechanical rooms. I think if you did all that, you could get, you know, perhaps a couple hundred feet out of this and we'd be down close to 200 cubic yards instead of 430. You know as close to zero as you can get is the guidance from us. And preserving that stone wall, I think I'd strongly support that. I think the landscape design, when you have a chance to do it will make a big difference in for your neighbors all of them to understand how this house will relate to them and the rest of the neighborhood. I think John's comment is an important one. There's an extremely conservative part of Mill Valley culture that just doesn't want anything to change. And I'm sure you'll be faced with some of that in this particularly important historic part of town. So you could anticipate people coming out as they did on the Throckmorton House. Keeping that in mind, there could be hordes here or not, but doing what you can to kind of soften the relation of the way you present the house through a landscape plan. And I think your collective guidance on softening the perceived mass and and the height, I guess, mostly more than mass would be, I think a good idea. That's all I got. Thank you very much. So I will first make my own comments and then circle back and try to summarize what we've all said. Let me start with that I think the general strategy for the sighting of the house and the general massing and the positioning of the pieces of the puzzle seem to be very rational and seem to fit well with the sight. I would like to sort of combine a couple thoughts. Commissioner Hildebrandt talked about a plinth. And Commissioner MacRuss reiterated the strength of the idea of preserving the Stonewall. I'd like to sort of maybe double up on that and combine those two notions. You know, maybe the Stonewall more inspires the idea of a piece of this house and the stairways and the sight walls and even perhaps the front of the garage were stone-like or stone, and as we've already said, the driveway, if it tips up more and the garage becomes less height, even the driveway surface, if that were of a similar color and material stone, this house could then start feeling like a two-story house sitting on the land. You know, so make the wall, the driveway, the stairs, the plinth of the land, and the simplest way to do it would be just make it out of stone. That might not be the only way to do it, but if the color, if the visual impression were, oh, it's a two story house sitting on some terraces and stairs and a plent. I think that would be a beautiful thing for the neighborhood. It would take the stone wall preservation idea and make a concept out of it. You build on it, you make it a thing. I think there's a real strength to that. I think that the house really, if it were a house sitting on the land, stucco, I think stucco in Stucco or light colors just seem to hurt the ability for it to be in context. I personally don't think it needs slope roofs or to look like a ye old fashioned house. I think it can be a contemporary house. But if it were darker colors or wood, you've done this before, Kevin, you can use those, you can use very contemporary materials. But the darker colors and the woods, I think the massing and the articulation is the overhang roofs are all working. I think a two-story, woodish, darkest color house sitting on a land-slash plinth would be something you could make really sing. I do think that every bucket of dirt that you could not take off of here is a good thing. And I think we've kind of outlined them all. If you don't need the fifth parking space, well, put some landscaping in there. And if you don't, if you maybe, the stair, I think the stair is a really sound thing to have where it is going all three levels. I agree that the storage, you need some storage, but I think you can craft. You can get a lot of bang for your buck with a really efficient storage idea without making a big room back there. So if that room could go away completely, or if the garage got a little deep. Yeah, I think you, if you essentially lose the storage area, raise the, shorten the floor to floor ice for the garage, tip up the plane of the, do all those things, you're going to, you're going to, amount of all falls, going to come down to signify. You might even, you know, if you actually, if it helped to lift the house up one foot, no one would ever see the difference. And, you know, and so maybe, maybe even a little tweak up, you're, you sounds like you got some room within the height limit. So all those things, you could craft, I think, to get the, the off-haul considerably reduced. I think that there was a part of partly assembly and partly my own thoughts. I have one more one you know one question about that the the redwood tree in the front. I hope it can stay. You gotta make it stay. So you have to, it seems like that would be, really important to make stay. And you know, with the effort to tweak the geometry a little bit or whatever you have to do, going through the deck doesn't seem like it's gonna hurt the tree one way or the other. It's gonna be wherever the walls are, the are so just I would just be careful about that I think that is All I have So Does anybody want to take another little spin around the block here? Yeah, I would like to actually make and then maybe we can give Mr. Skiles a chance to come up here. By the way, before I forget, I just wanted to thank the neighbors for coming out tonight. Your input here at this early stage rather than what could be the final night or later is hopefully very helpful to the applicant. So thanks for coming out and sharing your ideas, thoughts, concerns. Commissioner Srirangal, that was a thing of beauty. Really, admire it, really enjoyed hearing your comments just now. And that was really fun to hear. What I was going to say before, honestly, before you made your comments was, it was some of the same things as I made my comments and actually thought about that home, but that preserved the retaining wall. I think it was the darker color and the wood or fiber cement whatever they use materials, not entirely. But they also did, I think they used some rock elsewhere too. But that actually enabled, I think, that home to work there well. And I do think you can do modern here, as Commissioner Sraengal said, if you make some of the other moves, the right moves and combination, I know you think I'm a craftsman kind of person, but I'm not, I really am a modernist, but even more so, I'm a contextualist. And if I could typecast myself. Steven, I just don't mind, there's no VMP, there's no landscaping plan proposed here. But I know the applicant mentioned how these redwood trees screen the building and this redwood tree proposed, you know, close to these in a couple places. So, I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a good idea. I think that's a couple places. So a vegetation management plan is required and in some cases depending on the proximity of the home that requires limbing up to like 10 feet above the structure. And that of course eliminates a lot of the screening that is being considered. So I just want to caution Kevin to talk to the landscape architect and make sure you look at the VNP and what that requires so that you're not losing all this vegetation that you want to preserve. Yeah, no, I love the idea of trying to preserve those trees. I've preserved trees through roofs, decks through decks and roofs before, but we didn't have, you know, a wooey designation, even though it's in the Sierra, is actually where we did that and the regulation we have here. So if it doesn't work, I mean, frankly, I was thinking, you know, maybe hoping that maybe some of this side yard to the west there, there's no reason he couldn't actually plant some new redwoods, further out and more than whatever is required 15 feet away from the home or some Japanese maple or ferns, or whatever you think is appropriate in this contextual and goes with the architecture, which is kind of what our design guidelines speak to. And so I was just going to say, yeah, I think some more fibers are meant here could be helpful. The fact that you guys were talking about the knuckle, I think, right, the center. Yeah. But that's really like more than double height above your entry there. And would you guys think it doesn't need to be there? What would you suggest think it doesn't need to be there or what it's a suggestion on that? That was one thing that I had on my list of things that come out and I forgot. I think Commissioner Hildebrandt's notion that maybe there's a strategy where that becomes a void. Maybe it becomes, because you got two strong masses, you might want to think about that, because you're using a really great material wood there, but if we're suggesting that you use wood and or darker material to be more contextual, that's one place where the function behind could be more glass, it could be a separator. I think we should fairly quickly hear, maybe ask Kevin to sort of comment on what he's heard here a little bit before we. So just to finish up, I must have been learning something for you guys, or maybe I heard it, but that's kind of what I was picturing to, I just didn't want to repeat what was said if it was said and clearly was. And then curious to know, I mean, I assume you probably want the ability to park for cars here because there's not a lot of parking nearby in this area, but if you'll speak to that. And I think that's it. I think it'd be good to hear what you think you heard. Thank you. That was very thoughtful, very thorough. I really appreciate it. And you covered what I wanted you to cover with the questions I had and the staff had and then some. So I appreciate that because it's great to get input when we are still, you know, kind of early stage here. And I'm not discouraged that I can't have a beautiful home here, given the comments, it's just going to be, you know, we're going to adjust it and modify it and, you know, make it right. Really quick on a couple of the just technical stuff, and then I want to get to some of the commentary. So I do think four cars is possible here and I think since the driveway is going to be wide enough to get to a two car garage having two cars right behind it is going to be fine and the cut that's in the wall now will allow for that to work. So I do think that will work. Regarding limming up the redwoods, the neighbors, the Carlson's over here, they have been doing that And so right now, not universally throughout this grove at trees, but most of them don't have any limbs until about 30 plus feet above ground right now. So that kind of has been the pattern with how they've been managed. And I'm in touch with the Arborist who's been doing that. So it'll be nice to have continuity there. Now, so let me get to the rendering, because I think this is kind of a good spot to start. When Commissioner Sarangle was talking about, Commissioner Hilda ran his idea of a plinth, and then really kind of a hammering home the idea of using this, that's a beautiful idea. So I'm going to take that and run with it. And so I think that will definitely allow for something more contemporary to gracefully sit on something that's contextual and make that marriage work. That is the assignment I'm coming away from in a big picture way. And now the details of getting the cut and fill and the off-haul right, I think we kind of know what I'm going to do. And that'll, you'll see something that's reduced quite a bit. With regards to the materiality, I mean, I think I definitely will study a lot of different materials that aren't stucko, that aren't light gray stucko, and see what might work to make a home that recedes more into the forest, particularly once this starts getting landscaped more heavily. This does, I believe, have the opportunity, given that it's 40 feet or so from the yard to really be a background element and let the foliage be the foreground. And then with regards to the tallest part being where the entrance is, yeah, I'll definitely look at some other options. I mean, I think the idea of the wood being void and the volume is being on either side, that's a cool concept. I'll definitely look at that. I mean, in all honesty, I did not look at that while I was designing the home. So that's certainly an interesting concept. I think how these roofs interact, some work could be done there to potentially, start unifying the top floor. So it doesn't look like three things, which sometimes three things look bigger than one thing. So there's an opportunity there. So I wrote down a lot of notes. And I think while a few of the comments were definitely pretty particular to style, like wanting to see a different style, I think it is possible to have a modern home with flat roofs and have it work, I just got to get this right and get this to work with the context of the neighborhood. And you know, this is kind of not really designed. I mean that's I spent as you can tell probably you know 10 minutes doing that. That's I spent 50 hours on the house and 10 minutes on the stairs. So you know some things need to be done to kind of start integrating it really you know at that level. And so I think you guys definitely saw that. So no questions, no clarification, just want to make sure. I don't think so. I mean, I guess I don't want to come back with a project as a flat roof and like that's a deal breaker for two people on the commission. So if that is a deal breaker, go ahead. Yeah, I just want to say, I think we're're I don't want to speak for you because I didn't I heard I think we're all in the same page that I'm yes I think actually a modern home flat roof can work here with what you just described and what you've heard you know blending okay background. Quite or settler but we can't obviously speak for who may ever make come out of the community. But I think once you do that, once you do additional screening and landscaping, and you know, Redwoods, people freaking love Redwoods. So to the extent you can add some Redwoods, I think that would go a long way and building goodwill with the community. Okay. Oh, adding them. Okay, just to be it, you know, they're going to obviously going to be small. I mean, I know you also want to preserve some views in sunlight, so maybe there's a way you can selectively do a little bit of that. I'll look at something. I mean, I do want the ferns. You know, certainly would definitely be. And you could be some, I mean, the nice thing, he's got such a massive grove already to just add an artificial grove. It seemed like if he was to get some contrast like, you know, when you would see, like what I would hike around when I was in Japan when I was hiking around. There was like cedar forests, but then there was a contrast with the maples. And so if you were to put in, you know complemented the ferns, maybe there's Japanese maple, the context that the neighbors were talking about, and I'd leave that up to you. I mean, you know what the idea is there is to spend some more time on it and work on that. But I don't really have, I think Commissioner Surangle kind of summed it up really well and I don't really have anything else to add except for that Throckmorton project that you were referencing before. The nice thing about that, it was very clean in modern, but because it was, it was very low slung looking, right? So it wasn't, it was more of a horizontal massing than a vertical. And I think if you do what Commissioner Surangle talked about and that stone, he's talking about that I'm picturing, is that stone isn't like a limestone that's just decorated in the front, it's the stone color of the wall that's kind of coming and creating a plant, right? So that it's all kind of... Yeah, it's part of everything. It's all that palette. I think the more that the garage lower level becomes not a building, right? The better it is. Okay. I get it. I know exactly what you're talking about. All right. One or two last things, which is one on the curb cut. I mean, it looks pretty narrow there. It's just, I assume that's like a one car curb cut or roughly. I would point is, two car with wide garage fine, the narrower you can reasonably make the actual curb cut preserving that wall better. For sure. And then just to the discussion around preserving the redwoods in the back and, you know, citing and whatnot. I mean, I do think, you know, you suddenly studied this more than us and I know you haven't studied it fully yet, but I do think there's an opportunity to preserve those redwoods. Obviously lower the front a little bit, and you're talking about lifting up though now, right? Going at working with the grade more, which is going to make it feel taller, even if you pull that little piece out? That may not be necessary. I think honestly, the height of this is significant enough where if you're doing what Ernest is describing and you raise the floor up to here, and then it's sloped, and this is the minimal height garage door, and this is all kind of like almost feels like stone or earth or something that you're really bunkered into. I don't think this needs to necessarily go higher. This can stay where it is. I think this goes up. Okay. But I'm gonna look at it. Okay, yeah. Okay, okay. We're watching it. It's like a week ago. You know, you just, it's not really something. You know, I don't think it's a... I'll just strategy to actually lift the house up, but tweaking, you know, if one foot tweak helps, it helps if it doesn't, it doesn't. Yeah, I will definitely, I get where you're going exactly. I will study it. And I think I understand what you're saying as well, a commissioner, you would prefer to see something stepping with the hill instead of kind of a column. Yeah, and by the way, I'm also looking, 13 foot floor to floor on that first floor, is that right? Only on half of it. Right. Let me just say that, that's a lot. So I mean, I would think, you know, I would think about. I'm not careful about that. You know, we haven't quite seen it. Is the living level 13 feet? Is that what we're saying? Yeah. Which part, which half are you saying is 13? This and this. So this is a, this is a break in the ceiling. Ah. So this kitchen in this living room have a 12 foot the ceiling. So this kitchen in this living room have a 12-foot ceiling height. Clear. Yeah, from the floor to the ceiling, 12 feet. And then this is nine. And this is nine. So the floor of floor is 13 to get 12. Correct. Well, I mean, that's all part of what you're going to try to, the idea is to have maybe get rid of the tower, maybe look at that again, what you just mentioned, and try to get what looks like a two-story modern house sitting on this stone plent. Yeah, I think the comment about being more horizontal is a good one too. I think you've got a good mechanism with your horizontal overhanging roofs. You know, the center piece right now is kind of maybe breaking it too much. It makes the two sides look vertical. Somehow if the horizontal's overlapped, or you play with the horizontal, because that'll just visually reduce the height. the horizontal overlap. Play with the horizontal, because that'll just visually reduce the height. I agree. Okay. Maybe a balcony on the front. That's what I'm talking about. I don't know. You got something there on the front. How good? Okay, appreciate it. Great. So, did we already summarize or do we have to? Yeah, we're done. Good. I think you do need to summary or I can rewatch the video. Do we make our vast audience a happy ish? OK, good. Thank you. Back to the. I think I think you like to do anything official now. Oh, oh yeah, right. Infinish up the main events here. The other. You can have your chair back. All right, man. I hope you don't send me a bill for $2,000 for designing my plans. He was there. Yeah. I mean, you were awesome. Since John told me you have $1,000 billion. I don't know if you've got so much that hour of billing. God, I know what it's going to bill for. No more work to that. All right. Moving on. So we have minutes to approve. And they are from July 9th and August 27th. Motion to approve the July 9th minutes. And we'll do them separately because I was absent from that one. And I believe Commissioner Hill to bring as was yeah Commissioner Macress so if we could yeah motion to approve that one noting those We too are absent Do we do we technically make a motion? I want to make a motion to because I look through the July 9th That was the Redwood Lodge property. Yeah. And so I'll make a motion to approve those minutes from July 9th. Okay. And can I get a second from Vice Chair Saringle? Second. All in favor, it'll just be a Skyl Saringle and Hilderrand on this one. Aye. Aye. Three O passes. And we also have to approve the August 27th. I'll make a motion to approve the August 27th. Second. All right, we have a motion from Commissioner Mackers, the Secretary of Commission Yolas. All in favor with Hilderrand absent. Aye. Four O passes. Okay, bringing us to the Planning and building director's report. One item and that relates to the retreat. So here it is October 8th and we're kind of screaming towards the end of the year, so we're going to try to squeeze in a retreat here before the end of the year. I spoke with Chair Skiles this afternoon about a couple options, but I'll follow up with the commissioners dates to kind of hone in on a date that would work with your schedules. After talking with staff, I think we're probably going to need more than a couple hours, but we talked to Commissioner Skowles and I talked about it to our block. Given the agenda items we're thinking and design review thresholds revisiting that again. Parking code update basically status report on where we are at the time of the retreat. Commercial code update kind of status update but then get direction on the threshold that triggers design design conditionally is permit. The 1500 square foot threshold. And then offer up some of the kind of the direction we're going with streamlining like conditionally is permits, minor, major, what would be administrative. By that time, we should have a list of all the uses and sort of a matrix of the recommendations on what would be administrative, what would be permittable, what would be conditional. So it would be really helpful to get feedback from the commission and help with directing that effort. Our staff today, we kicked around a few ideas so the items are kind of growing a little bit. So I'll follow up with a couple of blocks of times, our dates. Again, we're thinking November 21st or December 5th afternoon. And we can offer up a few other dates, but we're thinking more mid-November, given our workload and schedules to fit this in and make it work. But to be coming soon, we'll be communicating here shortly. Thank you very much. With that, we're adjourned.