We have a roll call. Can we have a roll call please? Here. Here. Here. Here. Before you have an agenda can I get a motion to approve? All in favor? Aye. And next we have our approval of the July 11th, 2024 minutes. Move. Move approval. All in favor? Aye. All right, let's carry into our new business and get started with our first item on the agenda. This was referred by Council Member Driscoll. This is our potential amendments to section 16.20. Point, yeah. Da-da-da-da. Regarding the calculation of floor area ratio bonuses for workforce housing. I'll turn it over to Council Member Driscoll that we are joined by Liz Abernathy and Mark Vanloo for the presentation. Council Member Driscoll. Thank you. This is something that was amended a few years ago and you know with the success that we're seeing, with increased revenues coming from this particular payment in lieu, and the fact that we still have this incredible need to put money towards affordable housing. I didn't think it would be such a bad idea every few years for us to take a look at this, make sure it's doing what we need it to do, and kind of talk about whether or not it's a good time to adjust it upwards just a little bit. So with that, I want to turn it over to Liz. I'm interested in getting your thoughts today and then that of my colleagues so that we can see if we're at the right spot right now, if it's time to look at moving, or if it's time to look at moving this up. Okay, thank you. Liz Abernathy, Director of Planning and Development Services. I have Amy Foster with me as well as Mark Vanloo that maybe can help address the second part of your questions. I don't have a presentation just handouts which I made hard copies so they'd be a little bit the table be a little easier to read. The timeline is providing you kind of the changes over time to the workforce housing program which started in 2007. We really did our first kind of major revision in 2019, and that's where we prioritized the Workforce Housing bonus in the downtown table. So that's the first available bonus to a developer. Up until that time, it was not a bonus typically selected by a developer, so we prioritized it as the first available. And then we came back and we discussed at that time the possibility of increasing the fee, but we held off to see how some other measures that were going through the legislature may or may not allow us some different types of fees. So once that wasn't able to move forward, we came back in 2021 and basically doubled the fee. So the fee is based on the cost of construction and this is if the developer elects to pay rather than provide the units on site. So they have that option on site or not on site. And the tracking table will show you where there are a couple of projects that did elect to do on site. The bottom of the first handout, it shows you what we've collected each year. And as you can see prior to the change in 2019 it was a pretty low amount then starting in 2022 when it was prioritized you'll see that number go up and then this fiscal year and these this is the money collected so what the table is showing you is first on the top half projects that came in under the code between 2019 and 2021 where the fee was 0.25 percent of construction cost for 0.5 FAR bonus and then the bottom half is once that fee went up in 2021, it's a point five of construction cost for point five of bonus. This tracking table is showing both projects approved that have chosen that fee, but may not have paid yet because they have not come through and had their permits issued. So either the plans haven't come in yet, they're under review, or the developer isn't ready to start the project. So they don't pay until they start construction. So that's what you're seeing here is in the two different colors projects that have been approved and started, although I'm noting a couple of these that haven't, they're maybe on the cusp of starting that haven't paid yet. So these numbers aren't exactly matching the other numbers of it a little after, but I can explain that if needed. So the tan is showing projects that probably are really going to move forward because either they've started construction or they're about to, the blue or projects approved, which may or may not come forward, but those are kind of monies in the queue that likely would be collected if those projects move forward. So not all projects move forward, some of these might drop off, but it's a pretty big list of approved projects right now that haven't started. And so when you add up what since 2019 is either been collected or is due, word about 13 and a half million right now. So that's kind of where we are. We do have the new overlay for the warehouse arts district. That's the first place outside of downtown that they'll be able to elect to pay rather than build on site up until this time. We've kept that option to downtown, but we because we are utilizing an overlay that's very similar to downtown in terms of FARs and bonuses. We're using a similar structure where the if a developer elects to do multi-family and they go above the base allowable density. They would pay they could elect to pay the same fee as downtown. So that's what's proposed that goes to the board of County Commissioners next week, comes back to you as the full council on September 5th for full adoption of that overlay. But just that's another potential new projects that might go into the, you know, into the pot as well. So just kind of keeping in mind that we do have a potential for some additional monies coming in once that overlay is approved and projects start to move forward there. Okay, so that's what I have for you today. And we're here to answer any questions about, that you might have about the fees and the needs and our effects. Well thank you Liz. So committee members questions conversation? I'll start off sure I mean I'll be direct does administration have any thoughts on. Good morning. Good morning. Foster Housing and Neighborhood Services Administrator. I don't think we're ready to take a stance today, right? We're always looking for more dollars to build affordable housing. However, we believe that the program is working right now. I think we wanted to hear your thoughts and then can come back with a recommendation. I think, you know, in the past, you've always asked us to reach out to developers and hear their feedback. The truth of the matter is, is no developer is going to say yes, charge me more money, right? So I don't know how fruitful outreach will be. I think the one thing I would have you all think about, and we talk about this as we talk about building housing all the time is we are in a unique market right now where the cost of materials, the cost of labor, and the cost of borrowing money is making projects very, very hard to complete. And so for that reason, we think we may be in the sweet spot, but we wanted to come and hear your feedback today, and then run some numbers and have some conversations internally and bring back a recommendation at a later date. Yeah, and of course that makes sense, so I appreciate that. You know, my opinion is that I think that it could go up some only in that, you know, speak honestly like we're an exciting place to invest in right now. And I don't think that this would hinder all of the momentum that we have too much. So I think we have some latitude personally. I understand what you're saying though, you're not going to be able to get solid feedback. But can you give us an idea? I'm sure we've been presented this before, but I don't have it right here in front of me. How much people are doing the payments now versus actually using the bonus? Anyone? So I think that there is, let me find it maybe one of the ones on the table towards the bottom and the blue, the 332, 340, 344, 4 Streets South. For example, is using a combination of bonuses. I know there were a couple on here, who are doing both in, okay, so 900 central, they're doing payment in lieu or 5%, okay, nine unit. I can share well with you. I was looking at that. That in the two years I've been here, there were quite a few workforce bonus developments prior to my joining the team. And since I've joined the team, it slowed down to almost nothing. We've had maybe one or two. What is driving that though is the, just, no, it's the state's gray water bonus. Oh, yeah. And so we've talked to developers and kind of price this out. It's much less cost per unit to do the state gray water bonus. And so we have been trying to figure out where's the sweet spot to tweak on the workforce housing piece and haven't figured that out yet. Somebody like Bayou Court, who you approved some funding to, they layered the workforce bonus on top of the gray water bonus and really made a difference in their deal. And I have to tell you all, I know you just approved that agreement recently and a lot of times it takes a long time to make housing happen in our city. They are cooking. I mean, when Mark sends me pictures, I'm like, wow, they are really getting through that project fast. And so that is the only example where I've seen them be able to layer it successfully and take advantage of our workforce housing bonus recently. Okay. All right. Well, thanks bonus recently. Okay, all right, well thanks. Sorry. No, go ahead, I'm- There is one project where they were doing a combination with building 17 units on site and paying FAR for the difference. That's the 5333rd Avenue South. Again, that project has not moved forward through permitting yet, but that's one where they did choose a combination of build on site plus some payment. To give you an ideal of scale of magnitude, so 200 Central is the Arthouse project. They came in before we increased the fee. Their amount is two million, so that would have been 4 million if they had come in under the new fee. One of the examples of a larger project and what they pay, there are some larger projects on the approved list that haven't come through yet that have, you know, half a million to over a million dollars worth of payments that they'll have to provide to us if they choose to move forward. Okay, thank you all for that. Okay, well I'm gonna leave that part of it there and then the only other thing I wanted to bring up was just like, maybe just throwing out there the idea of like expanding where these bonuses can take place. So one of the things we have in the queue right now with the goal to bring to you by the end of the year, our increases for density and intensity on the commercial corridors. So that's gonna be the rest of the Sunrunner corridor as well as 34th Street, 22nd MLK, 4th Street, everything outside the coastal high hazard area. Thanks, Liz. And we're also putting forth a new concept for the workforce housing bonus using a sliding scale where market rate units increase with the workforce housing bonuses. So right now that they do something similar in Clearwater, I saw that concept and I thought well that might be a better incentive to choose the bonus if they're also going to get market rate with with the workforce. So what we have and what we're talking to the community about now is a program where you would get two market rates units for each workforce rate. Eight east workforce unit and then significantly increase the amount. So where today it might be eight units that you would choose. We can bump that up to 30 and then two thirds of those would be workforce and one one and then the rest would be the workforce housing. So we're trying to balance that too with what the live local option is because we want to incentivize people to use our bonuses so we get the 80% AMI units. So we're trying to incentivize in this increase the use of the bonuses in a way that gets us the 80% units rather than the election of the developer to use way that gets us the 80% units rather than the election of the developer to use the live local with the 40% and 120% AMI. So happy to have one-on-ones or a committee meeting in the future to talk more about that as we kind of get a little bit further along and what that is going to look like. But that's something we've been working on as another way to incentivize the use for the workforce housing outside of downtown where people really haven't been, not very many projects have been electing to use. Right. Yeah. More than there used to be, but it's still not, it's not as effective as we would like it to be. Okay. That's really interesting. I look forward to learning more about it. I have to wrap my head around it. The last thing I'll say is I mentioned this in a meeting once before on another topic, but we've had a lot of conversations about increased density throughout the city, things like NTM1, and so I mentioned it once before, but it was like a workforce, housing, density bonus in single family areas. I knew that it didn't make a lot of sense at the time, but I think there's opportunities for things like habitat for humanity or something to be able to do a town home where they might have only been able to do a single family unit if we had something like that. So I just wanted to throw it out there and I don't know if it's possible or whatnot, but I figured I'd mention it as something that I'd be interested in learning more about. That's all that a question. No, it's I mean, they are just if y'all want to think about it and have anything to say about it, that'd be fine. It's not a question. I didn't know who we wanted to like put on the top. I'm literally like, I don't get to say this and for me, all that often and I have no idea if it's worth exploring or not, but it's just an idea that's popped in my head. All right, sounds like maybe a future new business item. Maybe, yeah. Maybe. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Council Member Curtis, do you have anything before I- Sure, thank you, Chair. I don't know that I have anything specific. Thank you for the presentation. Council Member Driscoll, thanks for the update. I think where I'm at at this point is it's still relatively new in this new iteration. And so especially with this bench of a bunch of projects waiting to come, I'm certainly open to looking at changing it in the future, but I think now I'd love to see how this pans out, especially how the market is and where building is at with interest rates. So I think that's where I'm at. The only thing I would say is, I think when we, Liz, when we come back, if and when we come back on this, I had trouble figuring out how we got to the number on the right hand column. And I know that you have this column with bonus types, but it would just be helpful if like like it said okay they did the first workforce bonus for .5 then they did the second bonus for just a little bit more detail because I was trying to figure out the numbers on the right and how they matched up with total construction cost. Yeah. And it got screwy for me a little bit. And so you know because some of them are at 1% some are at .5 some of them are at 1%, some are at 0.5, some of them are at like 0.75. And I'm sure that's a combination of a lot of things, right? I mean, I eventually got to like, okay, they're doing two bonuses, but then they're getting all the way to 7, right? And so it would just be helpful to see how they're stacking it and how that num, and how they got, specifically how they got to that right hand column. Yeah, yeah, okay. Noted. But otherwise, you know, I appreciate the councils that have come before us and put this in place. I think this is really powerful. I'm looking forward to seeing how this bottom half of the sheet pans out and then certainly open to looking at the number. But that's all I had, Chair. Thank you. Well, before I send it back to Council Member Driscoll to kind of wrap this conversation up, I'll just share kind of my thoughts. Council Member Gertis, thank you for bringing up what you did about kind of trying to do the math, right? Because I was a little confused on that as well. So would be very interested in understanding kind of how those numbers work on the combination of bonuses. Because I very much did notice kind of this trend where after everything after we increased, all of a sudden started utilizing a combination where I don't see that up in the top. And so my question is, did things change other than just the workforce bonus? Like all the other stuff. Well, the historic, right? That's why you're seeing historic TDRs. Right. 2019. But I think it's that word combination of workforce bonuses that isn't prevalent above where it is prevalent in the lower part of the chart. And that stood out to me. And so it led me to think, okay, well, there's more opportunity now than maybe there was then with all of the other incentives to your point that you've been building or is it something else? So would love to see more context around that. Also, you know, your point to trying to make sure that we are incentivizing our programs so that we are getting those 80% units versus developers going to live local. I very much support that philosophy. That, you know, live local has got a lot of great things in it, but one of the things that I think specifically for developers is it does give our ability to work on those incentives. And so I do have a bit of a pause on an increase that may do harm to that philosophy. So I would just be, I'm not opposed to it by any means. The first time we increased it, I was very much in support of that. I'm open to having the conversation. I just don't want us to take a step too far that throws us out of the potential of being able to negotiate these 80% units. Because that is what the community is asking for. And so it's kind of like a do-no-harm type of position that I would like to take. But other than that, thank you for the presentation. And you know, be very interested in continuing to keep the conversation going. We can leave it on the referral list and bring it back at maybe a six-month check-in and see kind of where we are. But for that, I will turn it over to Councilmember Driscoll to wrap this one up. Thank you. I think this is something that we should look at periodically or on a set regular basis because we did a lot of work to get to this point. And from the numbers we can see that well depending on what the goal was I think it's working because the goal was either to get developers to include more workforce housing or give us somebody we know where it's needed. We know where we can really have some impact with these extra dollars and it's coming in. I do wish that more of our new developments out there were including some, if not more, workforce housing as part of their developments. But I don't know that wherever we're going to be able to raise this to a reasonable, a number that everyone can agree is reasonable and really creates that tipping point where we get more of it. And I think Administrator Foster and all of city stuff that works on this stuff has really been so smart in the way that we use these dollars and in the way that we use all of the funding that we have to go towards affordable housing efforts. So I feel like we're in a good place right now, especially with some potential new changes coming to us. Sounds like hopefully by the end of the year. I'd like to see how that works. We need more time for NTM1 to, I would like to review that at some point in the not too distant future to see if we're actually getting anything out of it because to me it was kind of a narrow field that we chose for that zoning. And of course I was, I wanted to go bolder with that, but I love at some point for us to see in this committee the same kind of thing. What's happening from these policies that we've worked hard on in past? So I would be so thank you. Thank you for putting this together for us. I would love to keep this on the referral list and kind of Target early next year to look at it again and just you know keep the ideas going because we have This shows that we've really we've really made a difference And I'm really proud of the work. Thank you for the timeline too, because committee chair Gabbert and I started in 2018. And you can see, not that we can take all the credit. But you know, you can see that this has been a focus. And Administrator Foster was on City Council at the time that we started all of this and so we're starting to see some of the The real long-term impact of these things that are so important to us. So Thank you for the presentation. I appreciate the feedback from my colleagues and I look forward to seeing what's next Thank you. So I've made myself a note to Put like a six month update if that works. I think, you know, with the way development flows and, you know, the timelines for developers six months, maybe you can come back and maybe we can kind of talk about where you're marching. Yeah. And that might be a new committee chair by then. So it'll be really be up to them, but I'll put it on, I'll leave it on the referral list. Well, and we could add, you know, the status on NTM lots to how many permits and what type of permits are coming in. I'd be thinking, the last I looked at it, and it's been a few months. It was a mix of single family, single family with 80s, some duplexes, I think a triplex, one quadriplex. So, you know, it's a mix. That's about 3,000 lots. And I'd be interested in some heat mapping on that to see like if there's certain pockets of the city where people are taking these advantages more. Yeah, that's a good idea to map as well. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's my interest. When you, when we do bring this back, I know it's going to be not long after we hopefully have the final approving approval on the zoning overlay. Yeah, the overlay is September 5th for final adon. Right. And then commercial package. But I suspect that there are some things that will be moving quickly once we get that one. If that is approved. So if there's any update at all on what's happening there as a result, when we come back in six months, I'd love to have everyone hear about that. Okay. Because there will be some exciting things happening there. And I think it's going to turn quickly. Sounds like a comprehensive update. Yeah, we can kind of give a status on different areas of the city and what's happening and what we're seeing. All the tools and excellence. And TM, the overlay, the activity center. We could call the toolbox review. There you go. And we do, I need to kind of get it on a public place on the web page, but we do have major projects in activity center, GIS map that we've been keeping updated that shows, what's happening in downtown Skyway, and in the, which are the, generally, right now the bigger projects. So the major projects and we're working on a few more tweaks to that to get it ready for public use and help with answering questions that people have about what's going on, what's this project, what's the status, you know, who's in charge from the contractor if I'm having a concern about. And that would be helpful for us as well. If we had a place where we could just point people and say, or we can go and look at the info and not have to be bothering you guys all the time. So I've been working with our teams on that. So thank you. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you so much. All right, we will move on now to our next item on the agenda, which is our expansion of the James Town Apartments for Affordable Housing. This also was referred by Council Member Driscoll and we are joined by Chris Bolesstra this morning. And so Council Member Driscoll, I'll turn it back over to you. Thank you. This was a project that was actually submitted for consideration for the Mayor's Innovative Equity Project Contest, if you will, for this year. And this, when the five projects were announced for everyone to vote on, I asked for all of the list of the projects that were not selected in the top five, just to see what other departments had come up with. And this was one of them. It was a request for funding for a feasibility study to look at expanding the Jameson apartments. This is an area of my district that is really special because it creates that affordable housing and it has for a very long time in an area that is now, you know, like an extremely popular part of our city. It's also got great easy access by foot, by bus, to jobs, grocery, all of that. So it's in a wonderful spot. And I remember my first or second year on City Council that I thought, we gotta do more of this. And in the meantime, we had Unity Park, which borders fourth Avenue South, that quite frankly is a challenging area with some of the unwanted behavior that can take place in that park. And there's playground equipment there, and the families, James on apartments, had told me at the time. They didn't like to take their kids there to play because it was not considered to be safe. Some changes have been made to that already, but I still thought as I did back then, maybe the park could be reimagined into a space where we can expand this success of James the James Town apartments and really you know create more affordable housing for residents. So I loved seeing that this was on that list. I loved that there was I think there was an element of partnership with the St. Petersburg Housing Authority and so I decided to make it a new business item so that we I think there was an element of partnership with the St. Petersburg Housing Authority. And so I decided to make it a new business item so that we can all learn more about what was intended by this project and see if there's a way that maybe we can move this forward. Well thank you, Council Chair, members of Council, Chris Bolescher, City Development, and thank you for the referral council member Driscoll. This is a potentially an exciting project and it's been discussed within a small group of city development for years and a little bit with parks, now community enrichment and housing as well. But to walk you through today, we will, and it's a very brief presentation. You've laid it out very well. But we'll review just quickly a quick update on Jamestown and Dwight Jones. We'll also look at possibly Unity Park alternatives, the asset immediately, contiguous and north of Jamestown, and then look at those expansion alternatives. And then what are the real considerations for them? I first though would like to introduce our relatively new manager of Jamestown, Jonathan Macias, Jonathan former Marine with post-military housing, including affordable housing experience. So he was a very kind of a hand-in-glove fit for this position. So we're thrilled to have him. He's already been tested out there a few times. And so we're very, very high on Jonathan right now, and he's available to add as needed throughout the conversation. Additionally, Heather Judd has provided us advice and air and fish with real estate and others as well, Liz and others. So we have plenty of folks who can add on here. I would add one final information before we get into it a little bit. This, there's a big caveat over this entire project. This is a charter park. talk about that in a minute, but there's challenges inherent with that. And so it is possible that we may not have the ability to do what could be contemplated out here. That being said, it's informational, it's a potential vision, and I'll take a few moments to walk through it. So, James Town, of course, and Dwight Jones for that matter, were purchased in 1974 and developed in 1976 with the Dwight Jones Center opening in 1977. Going back to the Charter Park subject, some of the monies for that were park revenue bonds. So that's just one of those caveats that, while those bonds have expired years ago, is part of the investigatory side that staff is still going through right now. Obviously, not obviously, Dwight Jones has been very successful in serving the community. It is a community center. It may not be, it may be as active in the same way as an Enock Davis, for example, yet it does house the Boys and Girls Club. It houses our city staff. It provides space for the Penalist Opportunity Council. We had folks, in fact, passing out backpacks just a couple of weeks ago for school kids. So a community-based and serves the community well. The Jamestown units themselves, you're very familiar with them. 76 total units. Again, vintage 1976, but probably 80 percent of them, 85 percent, have been rebuilt interiors. We've got about 10 units left. That project, Jonathan's working on right now with engineering and real estate, will commence within the next six months. So thank you to Council and Councils before you for advancing that project, as well as the County of Pinellas. Those are penny projects. So we've had a reasonably substantial amount of money over over 12-year-plus period to get to where we are today, provides a wonderful, safe living environment, and in my opinion, a banner example of affordable housing in the city. So we're very, very happy with where that has been and been redeveloped. Moving through just again, a graphic example of the sort of standard that we live by there. I think Jonathan is still busy cleaning up the grounds, following her tropical storm, Hurricane Debbie, with the beautiful oak trees that surround this asset. It sometimes can get messy out there. But again, that's just a prototypical of the older units. There are units that were finished in 2008, which we used HUD money for. And I believe it's about 12 units. And so we do have a different schedule of restrictions and requirements tied to those units. Those bonds actually expire in about three years. That built or facilitated the construction of those units. Dwight Jones Center as well. As I noted earlier, I don't need to double click on that one, but it's pretty straightforward. Tied to finding ways to successfully give the community a gathering place and housing some of our operations at the same time. So again, the ability to potentially expand Jamestown fits very well within the mayor's, one of the mayor's pillars of past towards housing opportunities for all. We're, again, it seems to fit very well and successful assets tend to breed more success if they're managed well. And we feel pretty confident at this juncture that we're at that place. Now that leads us into, you know, what else can we do? And we do have fun with these kind of things from a city development perspective of how can we, you know, I like the word multipliers, how can we multiply one success to get to a higher level. So that land directly north of Jamestown, I'll provide maps in a moment, is underutilized. It is a charter is underutilized. It is a charter park called Unity Park. It's really a Jamestown park on our map, our charter map. It was ordained as Unity Park years ago, but it's technically Jamestown Park. And this is several examples of, including a blowup and then a zoning map of the areas that we're talking about. The charter, in the lower left corner, you'll see that green zone with kind of a sprawling piece beneath it as drawn in the charter park map. That is Jamestown Park, number 33 on our Charter Park map. The zoning map directly above it, that it's kind of a cartoon looking item, but that more clearly shows very specifically the Unity Park to the North. So that is the Unity Park is what we're really here to talk about today. So moving on, again, more specifically tied to where this park lies and I won't speak to Unity Park in terms of what it is. I can say that it has and a lot of it has to do with its proximity. It hasn't properly functioned as a park in my humble opinion for its lifespan. I don't think it's serving the community well. Obviously, the park's department has a say in that, but part of it is just a simple proximity. It is up against both a freeway and fourth avenue north, which on any given time, you have vehicles going 30 to 50 miles an hour. There is no parking for it, so it's a little bit of an island right there, which leads to the larger discussion is it possible to make it serve the community better in the end. I had asked Jonathan to go get a fresh picture of Unity Park. Unfortunately in that image, it's an example. There happens to be a homeless person on the left-hand side. But it's a beautiful park. It's maintained well by the Parks Department. The playground that used to be there has been removed. It did not serve children. And the police department does a great job of managing and controlling it. So I do not think it's for any lack of city staff resources on how it's become what it is today. And I'll leave it at that. But in terms of is there an alternative and how might that be effectuated? Park acquisition bonds were the original impetus for the entire site. And for reference, I'm not aware of a park that has ever been removed from the city's park system. So there is that. That's a real hurdle. It clearly would require at a minimum a referendum. The earliest opportunity for that is 2026. All council approvals for that would likely need to be approved and required in the, I would say may, but at the latest June to be in the supervisor to have public hearings, ordinances, and then in the supervisor of elections hands in the month of August of 2026. The bigger issue, though, is once again, staff analysis, primarily legal and real estate, if it is a worthy pursuit, given what it is and the constraints. So I can't emphasize that enough. Now moving on to what it could be, we, I'll show you a few photos that are in your packet, but we have a low-density example right now of 42 units. We think that there is an alternative to make it a higher density example. They could be substantially more units and still accommodate parking. So moving through, that's Jamestown, again, kind of a cartoon look, but very crystal clear on what it is with the North being to your right, Unity Park to the right. So that vacant park is Unity. Everything else accurately represents from Dwight Jones to the lower left, up to the HUD units, which are the red ones up at the top of the screen, and then overlaying an architectural rendering of one way, one example of how you could lay out a change to affordable housing at Unity Park. And then a secondary shot, just rotating this with a proper due north view corridor, fourth half to the north, Unity Park wrapping around the borders, a budding or contiguous to Jamestown as it sits today. So that is what we're talking about. It's got, I think some exciting buzz about it, and I would just want to make sure that we don't get ahead of our skis on the subject. I'll walk through considerations, and I might have Heather come up for a moment to share, again, what we're gonna do next, which is go through a detailed legal and real estate review, along with city development and housing and community enrichment on if this is a viable option, if it is something worth pursuing, and if so, then what preparations do we need to do to get to a referendum finish line, a successful referendum finish line. And is that viable? We don't take referendum items lightly nor do we like to fail. So we want to make sure that the community would be accepting of something like this if it's an option. There will be plenty of analysis, cost of what it could take and lead times to get through it. There's also an out parcel directly to the east of Unity Park. That is not available at this time. It would round out the site very nicely, just in a forward looking way. But we're not too hot on that one right now. It is not available at this juncture. Another item as noted by Council Member Driscoll are partnerships. I, you know, it's to be determined if the city would want to take this redevelopment on by itself. It very likely could be done through third parties, including the housing authority and others. Or even private development, you could ordain or do restrictions that run with the land demanding that it remain affordable housing for years. So there's a plethora of alternatives on the funding. That being said, as you've seen with other projects in the city, building housing is not cheap in today's environment. And so it's to be determined on how the financial structure of that would go. Again, I mentioned briefly town homes as we currently have apartments and town homes today. Versus a higher density asset where you could easily get 100 to 150 units in that location. It's possible. Again, another exploratory item worthy of consideration after we get through the first hurdle of should we pursue it, period. And anything of this nature, it would probably be recommended by staff at least that we would embark on a master plan to make sure that it conforms and comports with everything we do citywide. We're so thrilled that Jamestown, it seemed like when I began here that Jamestown was sort of way over there and during that time downtown has exploded to the west and Jamestown is across the street from City Hall right now. It really has been all the time. Part of the larger method is town complex. And with that, maybe if I could just for a moment have Heather come up, I do want to expound and Michael Dima, obviously very experienced in our charter park system, can maybe take a stab at that particular subject, which is a threshold question to go forward? I would say initially the threshold question is, Mr. Wilson was referencing that legal and real estate are doing some checks, what we're doing is the parcels were assembled from individual owners, there were several folks that we acquired all of this for from in the 60s and 70s prior to James Tom being instructed. We need to make sure because some of that was dedicated by Platt as Park and some of that is now all of it actually as part of, as you can see, the charter parks map. So we're making sure that when folks deeded us those properties that they did not dedicate it for park use because then it could trigger a reversionary interest where we would have to return the properties to their heirs. So we just want to make completely sure before we embark on the workload of a referendum item that we can do this from that. Also, it was marked on some of the mapping and records that we have that these were purchased from park bonds. And so we're just checking to make sure that though we've already paid all of those off years ago that there wasn't anything Where we have agreed to keep any part of this as park and perpetuity to just make sure that there's nothing that comes back and the finer details That undoes this yeah, that's where we are now just making sure we're doing the really thorough look at that Thank you for that. We appreciate that. That's why you guys are the best legal team around. Anything else, Chris, before we get to the conference? No, again, I believe that as a state of the beginning, this is informational for Council and committee at this juncture. I think the burden of due diligence is on staff at this point in time. We'd be happy to come back with recommendations at the appropriate time. How long do you think your legal review is going to take? I think that Mr. Fish from real estate is pretty far along and maybe another month or two based on workload and things like that. We just some of the documents are old. They need to be ordered right now. Yeah. Okay. All right council members, conversation, questions. I'll go ahead and start. I'll come back to you. Council member Driscoll since it was your item. So we'll start with council member Gertis. Thank you chair. Council member Driscoll, since it was your item. So we'll start with Council Member Gertis. Thank you, Chair. Council Member Driscoll, thank you again for bringing this item. This is, I think, a really good exploration. I obviously love the idea of expanding Jamestown, what I will, and I'm interested to see what happens that obviously is a huge speed bump that we need to make sure that it's not a speed bump. But I have two concerns. First being obviously this park, I mean if I dry by it every day, this is how I get here. And so, obviously this park is for lack of a better word, a bit of a sanctuary for some of our homeless population. And I wanna be cognizant of that. And if we build on that, hopefully obviously this is a place where some of those people could live, but obviously we'd be displacing some of those people too. And I have a concern about that. The second is I think the closest playground other than the one that's on this property is probably the pier if I had to guess quickly. This one's been removed, right? Yeah, so the Parks Department was just completed a playground internal to Jamestown right now and then we subsequently removed the playground that was in Unity Park. Okay, so there is a pocket playground within the... Okay, so then that gets rid of... It's a brand new. Because I was concerned about taking a playground away from the complex. Yeah. And so, and I apologize for not noticing, no, I'm obviously trying to be a safe driver. And so, just in case my wife is listening. So that was one of my concerns. But otherwise, I'm excited to hear the updates and see what this could be. But my first concern still lies, but excited to see what the future holds and excited to hear the update from legal and from real estate and appreciative council member Driscoll for bringing this forward. Thank you, Mountain Chair. Council member Flay? Thank you. Yeah, I'll pick it up right there as well. Council member Driscoll, thank you for bringing this forward. Thank you, Mountainshire. Councilmember Fleigh. Thank you. Yeah, I'll pick it up right there as well. Councilmember Driscoll, thank you for bringing this forward. I had talked to Mr. Ballestra about it previously and you know, I wasn't sure how to get it to this point, but I'm glad that you brought it forward for us to have a conversation about and I'll reiterate Council Member Gertis's concern. Same thing like I wouldn't support anything here without a detailed plan as to, you know, what it looks like for the people that use the park all the time. That's just what it is. There's people using the park all the time and, you know, out of necessity and that should be one of our highest considerations, especially it's located close to homeless services. And yeah, across the street, yeah, from homeless services. And that's a common location for people to congregate if they can't get shelter space or maybe they can and they just have to leave during the day or whatnot. So that's probably my biggest concern that comes to mind right away. But it's something worth exploring. And I'm eager to hear what legal and real estate come up with. And then the only other thing I'd mention is further down the road. I tend to be in favor of more density and maybe looking at more mixed-income model. And I really support the city's continued ownership of it. I think that's what's special about Jamestown. But I know Jamestown is we've had to go out and look for sources of funding to continue to maintain it. I think looking at something like more mixed income, still affordable, workforce at most, really, and small consideration. But maybe getting that mixed income might make our sustainable funding a little easier and moves us in a direction that consideration, but maybe getting that mixed income might make our sustainable funding a little easier and moves us in a direction that I've been interested in for a long time. And so those things further down the road, but right now like yeah, we get through the legal considerations and then the actual impact on the people that use the park I think is the biggest thing that's in my mind right this second. So thanks Council Member Gertis for bringing it up and that's all I've got. Thank you Well, I'm gonna carry on that same thread Because that was of a concern to me. I mean I have a couple of concerns. So I'll kind of start there so certainly concerned about displacement and The proximity as you mentioned to other homeless and shelters type services. And so was there any conversation had within the teams about potentially if we're going to go down this path utilizing this property as some sort of shelter wrap around service type of asset. Have we talked about that? We have not today, Council Member, and I think it's a great exploration. I think we've, as stated, if not overstated, we get through the first phase of Investigator, let us see if we have the ability to proceed. Right. And from there, broaden the discussion. Okay. And look at every potential alternative for this asset, it does not need to be affordable housing. What could it be? Right. And once again, I think in terms of threshold questions and non-starters, can it possibly, even with no, nothing holding it back from a technical legal perspective is this something that the city wants to do which would be the first time taking a park out of the park system. It's a philosophical question, right? It's a little subjective and I think that requires a lot of discussion to get to that point. So, and then broadening it to where you go from there. Administrator Foster came up when I asked the question. I'm glad you did, because this is certainly your will house. So, can you speak to what my specific question was? I mean, we certainly haven't had that conversation with Mr. Ballastra, but you already fun to day services program at St. Vincent de Paul. Yeah. You fun shelter at St. Vincent de Paul. Yeah. You fund shelter at St. Vincent de Paul. The reason you see people in the park, this is my assumption, based on conversations we've had with the unhoused, is at a certain time in the morning, the police go through and ask people who are sleeping on the sidewalks to move along. If they are in the courtyard area of St. Vincent de Paul, and ask people who are sleeping on the sidewalks to move along. If they are in the courtyard area of St Vincent of Hall meaning there's not enough shelter space inside, they've had to sleep in the courtyard area outside. They have to get out so they can spray off the area, clean it, and be ready to welcome people back in the morning for the day program. And so oftentimes people travel right there and then travel back to where they are staying and utilizing the day program or the shelter space. Miss Rhymes has been working very diligently with St Vincent appalled to beef up what that day services program looks like. In previous leadership, they had more outside services coming in. So helping people look for jobs and do other things. They have had some pressure on the site with their own construction, their building affordable housing. They have had some pressure on the site with their own construction, their building affordable housing, they've also needed some renovations that has caused some of the pressures that we're seeing down there, but she is working diligently with them to build in better outcomes in that day services program so that we get what we're paying for, and we hopefully alleviate some of that pressure on our downtown park system. Could there be an opportunity to partner with them for expansion of their services on this site? Certainly is a possibility. I mean I think we're all about possibilities right now like so I think now's the time to have those conversations. And of course, once legal does their review. Personally, let's say legal comes and they say, OK, we're good. We can move forward if this is what the voters decide that they're comfortable with. We could move forward on something. We have time. I would like to see us have a comprehensive conversation. I mean we've got master plan development down here at the very end of the list. To me that almost moves up the list because if we're going to tell voters we're willing to take something out of the park system because that's what it's going to say. No matter how we try to sugarcoat language we're telling the voters we're taking something out of the park system. I think we have to have a really good reason why. We're willing to do that. And I think that a conversation like this could be a potential answer, especially when we see everything that's happened in Tallahassee in the last year about criminalizing homelessness. And I just think that there's a real connection to providing services if we're going to go down this path. And I think that could be a really easy ask of the voters. So I would not want us to limit our conversation to only expansion of the Affordable Housing, which is also a very worthy cause, of course. I want us to have a conversation about both if we get there so that we can then weigh the pros and cons of each and decide what's best to put before the voters. Because for me, it's not just about, do you want to take it out of the parks? It's about, do you want to take it out of the parks, but then do this with it. And I agree that that's where the discussion with the larger group I think can be very fruitful. You know you have 75 words or less to be state your intentions very clearly. It's not easy to do to come up with those 75 words and the last thing you want to do is confuse voters. But on the front end, as you noted, the master plan word is at the bottom of that list. If there is clearance, all internal clearance, it moves to the top of the list. Good. So that's why it's not we're not there at this juncture. So I think it's really an internal review. I saw Heather, I kept seeing you raise. So I apologize. Go ahead. Where do you go back to your maps page? I just want to be very clear that we aren't going to be removing James, the one with all the down to waterfront map. Oh, certainly. Yeah, exactly where. So what we know is Unity Park is that top portion. Right. And then you have the housing complex, and you see the strip down, and then that green. That's also part of the park. So what's being discussed here is we wouldn't be taking Jamestown Park as a whole off the map. Unity Park. It would be a portion. A portion. And then the park, actually, as you see on the lower map, is all of that bottom and then we actually have some out parcels to the west. Okay. So that's not being contemplated. It could be but again right now the ask is if we were expansion of Jamestown would be just going to that north portion. Got it. It wouldn't be a complete removal of the park but there is still some other areas that we also are inspecting the deeds for but could have other uses. Okay. All right. Fair enough. I mean available as passive park. Okay. So we can leave this as well on the referral list and this one we could bring back in what a couple of months for a quick update. Do you think you'll be ready real estate, Erin? A couple of months. Sometime this fall, late fall. Okay. Because the referral list is not enormous right now. And there are some items that I know we need to get through, but at the same time, we have plenty of time for updates on these items. So, okay, we'll leave this on and bring it back after legal. It's been able to do their review and then we can have more of a comprehensive conversation. So Councilmember Druskel, let you wrap it up. Thank you. I'm excited. This is, it's no matter how this turns out, it tells me that both Jamestown apartments, those residents, as well as the park, those who frequent the park, are all going to benefit from whatever comes out of this. With the, as you move forward, determining the possibilities with the park and it sounds like there could be some previous parcels within the park that possibly can't be changed into anything else. And I think that depending on how that all comes out. And when you return a map that shows any kind of restrictions or not, it could be really helpful, like just to... I wouldn't have spayed it would be a more detailed and color coded map with more measurements so that we could see the work going on. Because it could be that there's maybe one parcel, but that's where we create a park within the redevelopment. Yeah, as noted, there's parcels directly to the west. I mean, and you can see on that map, there's a piece of Jamestown apartments right now is on charter park. Yeah. So, you know, it's a murky, it's murky on how that lays out. That being said, the Unity Park component of it called Jamestown Park on the Charter Park's map, that is a rather clearly delineated zone right there. And do you have any thoughts or any information on that? The parcel that's in the Northeast corner of this area that's privately owned? Yeah, not at this time. You know, we'll, with Aaron's help, we'll investigate the opportunity at this juncture, there's been no interest in the ability to make that one available for us. So depending on how all of this moves forward, that could be an area of interest. It fills out the site very nicely. That being said, we've only looked at a simplified design option that does not include that, obviously. Right. Okay. And I'll quickly go through my other things. The renovations at Jameson apartment, apartments has been just incredible. And I hope any city council members who have not visited to see the transformation and the improvements there, I highly encourage a visit. It's a great way to get together with you, and which I have not done since, because last time I was there was before you started. So we've got to get together soon, but really putting your feet on the ground, walking around and seeing what's happening there is what's really motivating me to get something done with this. So thank you, Chris, you are such a big part of that. Making sure the funding came in and the things were done right. So thank you for that. And I know it's early, but when you show what this could be, the example here, the first thing I see is like a giant parking lot. And so it's not exactly what I had in mind about turning our park space into residential and considering that this is affordable, this is housing for folks who may be transportation disadvantaged. I wonder if this is, was this done based on parking requirements for this area right now? It was, and this, again, we've, this was done gratis by a local architectural firm for us. So we're thankful for that. It also is probably, that image is probably seven years old right now. So, but it was done in compliance with the parking requirements at that time. Clearly going back to master planning and a more detailed discussion, we would likely need to spend a little bit of money to develop more fully thought through examples and multiple alternatives. This is a singular. Right. And including high and low density alternatives, if this thing were to take flight, yeah, all right. opportunity. Thanks. I just I just want to make it clear while it's early that. That's not the only thing. As I mentioned at the beginning, this is an area with very easy access to transit. And access to many amenities and services on foot. This is not with this being adjacent to downtown, that's not the type of development that you see in an urban area. So I'm just hoping that parking will be considered and we've got time. I mean, it's two years before we can even do a referendum if it's decided that that's what we'll do. That gives us time to look at this and make any adjustments that to parking requirements that might be needed to make sure that this is something that makes sense. And then finally, I think the points that were brought up by my colleagues regarding our N House population that frequent CUNY part, one of the things that has given me some comfort while thinking about this is that St. Vinnie's is so close by. I think it would be an even greater success story if we did work with them at the same time to see what some long-term collaboration could look like with that. I want to make sure we're not finding needles in the park all the time anymore. Right. Right. I want to make sure we're not finding needles in the park all the time anymore Right But those come from those are from people who need help yeah and so I I love the idea of Working with them and having that in mind as you begin any kind of master planning process Finally, is there anything that you need for a must today in order to continue moving forward? Thank you for offering that up at this time. No, I believe right now it is a staff or administration exercise at this juncture. And again, as always, with full transparency, we'll bring back the results. All right, thank you. Perfect. Council member, go to show your final right. Thank you. Perfect. Council member, go to show how to final thought. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Chris, I was just wondering if you knew what was happening on the north side of fourth avenue across the street. I know it looks like, I don't, there's something. It's being used as like a staging area right now. It seems like, do you know, are they just using it for staging for the project that's happening on the other side of 12th? I believe that is. Oh, it's happening. That St. Vincent de Paul's property. It is. And so they will be moving, I believe, the area you're talking about. It's like, there's a house, there's st. Vincent de Paul, then there's like a four plexer, small apartment building, and then there's a weird sliver of property. Yeah. That is their property. They will be using that for staff parking once they build the affordable housing. So people will have to kind of walk. But all of that is their property. OK. All right. That Alright. I was just curious. We knew what was happening and how that might work in. Thank you. That's all I had, Chair. Alright, and then I just had one final thought myself. One thing I forgot to mention earlier. Chris, you had said in your presentation, talking about all the different possibilities. I wrote it down. You made a comment. There could be a potential that we could also work with like private developers, put you know restrictions, all of that on there. I don't really have any interest in that personally. I feel like this is a property that you know we have long been proud to own and operate and I want it to continue regardless of what the reiteration is. So I know we're kind of throwing everything at the wall right now and this is our opportunity to give you that feedback that would not be a direction that I would want to see us go in on this particular property regardless of what the outcome is. Partnering with you know to some extent I think the housing authority or if we do some sort of like homeless you know type of services with St. Vincent DePaul, those kind of things make sense. Otherwise outside of that scope, I probably wouldn't have much interest in moving forward with something when they private developer for this particular piece. So I just wanted to mention that. Thank you. And I would just simply enclosing that none of this was necessitated by the private development community kicking tires out there. Yeah, no, there has not been any interest expressed nor have we even considered or going that direction. I just throw the global net of every possible. We're doing like a white boarding session today. So yes, I understand putting everything out there. But then again, giving you that feedback, I just wanted to like, where I stood on that. Thank you for that. All right. Well, thank you for the presentation. Welcome to the team. Thank you so much. We look forward to working with you. And legal, we'll bring this back in a couple of months and you guys can do your update, Aaron. And then we'll kind of go from there. This is Amber. I'm trying to go from there. All right, very good. Well, thank you so much for some fantastic conversation this morning, and with that meeting as adjourned. Have a great day, everyone. You guys, dig right for it. I