All right excellent we're going to get started call today's housing land use and transportation committee to order with a clerk. Please start with the roll call. Floyd here. Harding. Drisco. Gabbard. Fix Sanders. All right excellent. We have committee members. We have an agenda before us to have a motion for approval. All right, all those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Okay, motion passes will move on to, we have the February 13th, 2025 minutes before us. You have approval. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. All right, excellent. All right. We can move on to our new business for today. We have two items. The first one will be a discussion on the panelists on Coast Transit Authorities, Connected Community Network. And we're joined by transportation and parking management director Evan Mori and PSDA Chief Planning and Community Affairs Officer Darden Rice right So lovely to see you both this morning, and I'll let you take it away All right great. Thank you council members. I'm gonna do a real brief introduction and then let the PSTA leadership Carious through the slides and provide a little bit greater detail on this but we Are embarking on some some changes at PS so we felt it was important to give council this update so that you're aware of the changes that are being proposed allow you to ask any questions that you might have and give us input before everything is finalized and this is one of those things where PSTA is looking for a cost neutral improvement. So it's not like a whole lot of new money has come in and we're trying to figure out how to spend it. So it is a challenge in that way, but I think that they've come up with a good way to have the limited dollars that they do get go as far as possible. Also, we are pleased to have another opportunity to partner with PSTA to have them here today. I can report to you that after council approved the additional funding to improve the center under service on Friday and Saturday night by increasing that frequency from 30 minutes to 15 minutes that that has been successful. Early indicators showed that after the first month Friday night service had increased by 100% and Saturday night service had increased by 50% so if those trends continue then That's that's a really good thing and you may recall that that's a combination of the better service and the new stop By the Sun del Garage so with that good news. I will pass it on to Darden Rice with PSTA, our great transit agency who by matter of looking at transit agencies across the country is not the most well-funded but has recently been the most awarded for transit agencies of its size. So Darden, thank you. Thank you, Evan. Good morning, everyone. Good morning, council members. It's really great to be back here and have the opportunity to talk about our Connected Community Bus Plan. And I am joined by my planning manager, Jacob LaBurca, who's been with PSTA almost eight years and is the project manager for our bus plan network change. I'm going to set things off and kind of set the table and then I'm going to hand it over to Jacob. And as Evan said, yes, thank you. The City of St. Petersburg is a great partner with PSTA. The ridership numbers for Sunrunner after dark are through the roof, so it's been a very wise investment. We anticipate those numbers getting higher. Also just a reminder, City of St. Pete has a U-Pass agreement with PSTA. So any city employee can show your badge and get on the bus for free. And you guys have been really good partners. So about the connected community bus network, again, just to kind of take a step back, this is part of what we do every five years to look at and really get down to brass tacks and look at and realign and make changes to our best network as necessary. It's part of a required federal process and it becomes part of our TDP and our LRTP, which is our Transit Development Plan and our Long Range Transit Plan as well. I'm personally excited to work on this project because it's not very often you get to really go back to your network and just start over from scratch and look at what's working, what's not, what are the new trends that we're recognizing happening both in our community and nationwide and to make those changes and to have a better bus network. And Jacob has been a big part of leading that effort and working with our public pretty intensively over the last year and a half. So if we could go to the next slide, thank you. So some themes that you'll hear us talk about with this connected community bus network is, as Evan said, this is cost neutral. means wherever we add service means that we have to make a trade-off, center-place out. We're going to see more service on weekends. That's actually part of a national trend that we've seen since the pandemic. We've seen a lot of latent weekend ridership. So you're going to see more consistent routes that will be spread out over Saturday and Sunday as the rest of the week. PSTA at the behest of our board, oh and by the way thank you to our board members, our immediate past chair, Gina Druskel and our awesome vice chair, Deborah Fick standards. You guys are great, thank you. Our board has given us direction to support more tourism type services, and that's with the Cross Bay Ferry, the Clearwater Bay Ferry, our on-demand service between the St. Pete Airport, Clearwater Airport, and Clearwater Beach, and so forth. We're capitalizing on our premium core routes, and we're really particularly looking at how those core routes succeed in connecting people to job areas. Number five is one of my favorites, and it's also kind of the more difficult things to achieve. But we're decreasing travel time with time to transfers. And that means if you have a 30-minute route or a 60-minute route and you need to connect to another 30 or 60-minute route, if you miss that connection, you're likely not going to wait around another whole hour. That's it when have good connections, it means that we kind of become a one-seat agency. And we don't want to have that in our system. We want it to be more reliable where people can transfer to another route. Jacob will talk about that in just a second. And then just one more thing that I want to touch on before I hand it to you, Jacob, is that what makes this process different this time is I'll be very candid with you. Our existing network doesn't look a whole lot different than how we've been doing things the last 40 years. And why is that? It's because when we make changes to our routes, people don't always like change. They almost never like change. So it takes a lot of work to get the building and the buy-in. And I've been in your seat before. I've been on the seat of a, as a chairperson with PSCA. It is very difficult to vote for changes to routes. When you a room full of people looking at you pleading to not cut their route. So one of the things that we're doing this time is we are we're not just we're expecting that our board we're anticipating that this will be adopted next month but instead of just flipping that switch right away we're we're going to engage in a six month effort of working with the public and engaging the public and really showing people how the new system works. And we haven't done that before. And based on the community outreach that Jacob and his team have been leading, the public input is really key to making this work. And we have incorporated public input into the changes that you see today. So with that, I'm gonna hush up, and I'm gonna hand this to Jacob. Take it away. Thank you, Darin and Kamor. Thank you, buddy. I'm really excited to be here, and I've been really excited to be a part of this project. I think this is a really meaningful way for us to make some impactful changes for our community and for our writers, while also recognizing the realities of our budget. So kind of when I outline on a few ways in which we're able to improve outcomes by adjusting the service. Also apologies, I keep forgetting to take the timer off this PowerPoint. No matter how many times I give it, I keep forgetting to take the timer off, which is why it keeps going forward. So my God. I thought it was heaven. I thought it was heaven. I thought it was heaven. I'm trying to try. I'm trying to try. Oh, she just made it on heaven. Man, I can't. I'm with her already. Thank you. I'm like, what a hit. So could you go back two slides for me, Evan? Thank you. the way in which we measure how these network recommendations can improve outcomes for our community is, wow, the timer is really fast on this. Anyway, on my foot, ignore me. I've heard at least that last thing I just said. Anyway, the way we measure the outcomes of this is access to jobs and access to opportunity. So we looked at system wide and we have a very detailed report that I'm happy to send after this meeting where we looked at how the changes were making to the network increase access to jobs, particularly during those times where we don't have as much service out today. One of the things that Darden briefly touched on is that part of this plan, or because the significant part of this planning effort is to reallocate service from the peak times during the weekday that while we do certainly have a lot of travel during the weekdays, our market doesn't necessarily peak in the ways that other commuter markets around the country peak. And we also know as Darden said that there is this nationwide shift towards weekend ridership. And our own ridership within our existing system today has recovered much more significantly in weekday ridership. In addition in the eight and a half years that I've been here, both through this planning effort and just from being out in the field talking to riders, the number one thing I've heard from riders is I need more service on weekends and I need more service on evenings. And so this plan is really an effort to be responsive to that community input. So shown here is a graph of how job access improves policies about how job access improves in the evening hours for our writers compared to our existing system and the proposed network. So shown here in the bars in gray are the job the number of jobs the average writer countywide, can reach within an hour of transit, an hour of taking transit. And the orange bars are the network recommendations. So we show that for residents on the left, residents of color, long-come residents, and households without cars. So as you can see, for the average resident, about 27,000 jobs can be reached within an hour ride on transit. But in the new network, that goes up by about 24% in the evening hour. And that's because, for a lot of our system, we're looking to improve the span of service. A lot of our routes don't operate past 7, 8 o'clock, particularly those that operate once an hour. So this is an opportunity for us to correct that and to improve the consistency and reliability of our service. And those percentages increase even more significantly for populations who are more likely to ride our service, particularly residents of color at households without vehicles. We also ran those saving numbers for Sundays, and so you see that overall the number of jobs that folks can reach within an hour is lower. And that's a function of the availability and the frequency of service being lower on Sunday. A lot of our routes tend to operate once an hour on Sunday. But for many of our routes, they don't operate at all. And so you can see a pretty significant improvement across the board of about 25% and the number of jobs that folks can reach within one hour. And that's because we're filling in the gap in the network and for the majority of our routes providing consistent service seven days a week including service on Sundays. Next slide, please. So another big part of this plan that we're working very closely with our friends at the city at is downtown St. Pete. And so this is related to the point that Darden made earlier about time transfers. And so we've identified a few locations throughout Pinellas County where we want to implement time transfers to decrease the travel connection time between routes, particularly those routes that only operate every 30 minutes to an hour. So shown here is the current network of routes within downtown St. Petersburg today. So I think the goal about nine years ago was to create a grid-like system of routes within the downtown core. And so while we did maintain some connections, there were some routes that due to having to split routes across downtown, we did increase the travel time between certain routes. Next slide, please, Evan. So shown here are just a sampling of a few of those routes from the previous screen entering the downtown area. So you can see some routes like our route 7 on the south end that ends around 2nd Avenue South. And then we have other routes like our route 16 and our route 38 that end close to 2, third avenue north and 5th avenue north. So there are some routes that are close together. There are some routes like these that if a rider needs to make a transfer, they need to maybe walk anywhere from four to maybe even ten blocks to make those connections. And so that's something that we want to try to fix to the extent possible and take a look at as we're looking at implementing these new set of network recommendations. So if you go to the next slide please. So the solution that we have tried to come up with in this plan is how do you implement transfers in a very bustling downtown area like downtown St. Pete where we absurdly, wouldn't be realistic to do a transfer facility like we have at Grand Central, but we still want to promote and make more easy the providers to be able to do transfers downtown. So the way that we are looking to achieve that is by implementing what we call a transfer hub, which wouldn't be a facility, but rather it would be a common area for which buses would pass through. So shown here on the screen, it's in the area approximately around third and fourth street, around first avenue south. So essentially the buses would be routed through mostly existing bus stops within that area. And then, but they would not lay over there, they would just pick up or drop off passengers within that area. And then they would go to different locations throughout downtown. So for example, you see layover north on Third Avenue North where we have an existing layover location there. Some of the routes could go there to layover. And then the part that we're working extremely closely with Evan and his team on, We actually have a site visit in a downtown in a few weeks to help identify. A few different locations on the south end of downtown. the part that we're working extremely closely with evidence team on and we actually have a site visit in a downtown in a few weeks to help identify. So a few different locations on the south end of downtown within a two or so block radius of the publics on third street to find existing spaces where buses could lay over but still spread out how they're kind of currently are like spread out in different layover locations but close enough to so that from a scheduling perspective, we can create this transfer hub and implement time connections in downtown. So writers transferring between routes, particularly those less frequent routes, have faster travel times. And so I know this is something that's certainly gonna require a lot of coordination and a lot of work with evident in his team. So we're definitely looking forward to getting out there in the field in a couple of weeks and coming up with some recommendations for where buses could lay over to make this concept a reality. Next slide please. So, Darden mentioned outreach earlier and there was a significant amount of public outreach throughout this effort. This has been a year and a half long process over multiple phases where we've engaged the community and some of the trade-offs around how you invest in transit, such as bus stops basing, whether it's more important to invest in frequent services or to provide geographic coverage, which on that front, based on community response, we've kept the distribution about the same, but we've just reallocated where service is going and streamline services, and of course, obviously expanded service on evenings and weekends. So, shown here is just a list of all the ways we've engaged both our broader community, as well as operations division, particularly our bus operators who both know what is operationally viable, and they're also the front lines to the writers. So we received a lot of suggestions from them based on their experiences from writers that we've actually been able to implement into some of the changes we've made to the network over the last couple of weeks. So we've done everything from talking with writers directly on buses at terminals such as Grand Central, coming to different community committees such as this, a lot of digital outreach. I even went on a podcast of the radio saying, Putes Studios, the Carpey St. Pete podcast, which was a lot of fun, except for the part that I spilled my coffee during the podcast, but it's fine, it's audio, it's not on video, so the only person that knows that is me and now all of you. And like I said, it also did a lot of in-reach to really balance out, ensuring we're talking to as many different folks with as many different experiences and touch points with our writers and the community as possible. Next slide please. And so, a briefly touching on that outreach, I just mentioned, particularly the community facing outreach. So, one of the, so we did a community-wide survey in this most recent phase of engagement where we showed writers in the overall community the network map, I just, we just showed you a few slides ago, and we asked them a series of questions or statements rather to react to. So, one of those statements that's shown here on the screen is, compared to the existing network, the draft network will be better for the county overall. Because we certainly want anything that we do that's major like this, we want to make sure that people think we're going in the right direction overall. And so these are actually pretty very positive numbers numbers based on the survey responses that about two thirds of respondents agree that the recommendations are better for the county overall. About a quarter think it's about the same. So it likely they either maybe only ride every so often or they're a daily rider, but maybe the changes don't impact their trip that much. And 10% of respondents disagree with the statement. So working with our consultant team, Jert Walker and associates, on this plan, they've done similar surveys throughout the country, and they actually noted that these responses are much more positive than responses they've seen in other jurisdictions. So we're very happy to hear that. That being said, even though that disagreement is only 10%, we really made a concerted effort to identify some of the issues that some of those individuals and the survey respondents overall had with the plan. And for a lot of folks, they just said primarily that they just want more. They wanted more frequency, more span of service, more weekend service. And while this certainly moves the needle in that direction, this is, I would say, the springboard from which we can make future improvements. Because I know even beyond this plan, there are certainly additional projects that we're looking to implement over the next couple of years. For example, we've been talking internally a lot about what the next premium transit service is beyond Sunrunner and Spark. So we're looking at studying the 19 corridor for a future premium transit study. So we certainly want to continue to move the needle to be responsive to the comments in this study as well as comments we've received overall. But in addition, like I briefly mentioned earlier, we've received a lot of great feedback for both riders and drivers that we've been able to make tweaks to the network map so we can be responsive to write our feedback and make sure we put out the best plan and the best network we possibly can within our existing budget. Next slide please. Also, some coming to the next steps related to this plan. So a parallel ongoing effort that I'm sure some of you are aware of is that we're working with the city on the Connecting South St. Pete C.R.A. mobility study that's looking at the multimodal transportation network within the South St. Pete C.R.A. So, we're certainly sharing this effort with that project team and also taking a close look at what's impossible transportation recommendations are that could go beyond the scope of the study to improve transportation in the South St. Pete's R.A. This month we are currently working on making of those tweaks to the map based on writer and bus operator engagement. Also like I just mentioned the next couple of weeks we're going to be doing a site visit in downtown St. Pete with our with Evan and his team to identify some suitable layover locations to make the downtown time transfer concept a reality. And then at the end of this month, the KSTA Board will have a final vote on the Connected Community Bus Network. And if approved, as Darden mentioned, we'll spend the next six months after the Board vote, working closely with our municipal stakeholder, particularly St. Pete, our writers, our operations team, our scheduling team to ensure that we have a successful implementation and to also ensure that our community and particularly our writers are aware of these changes and how it may impact their trip and then the goal would be to implement this fall as early as October. And so with that I think D Dart and I are more than happy to take any questions or questions. Well, thank you so much for the presentation. Thank you, Jacob. There's a lot of information. I appreciate it. Yeah. But you delivered it well. Committee members will go with Councilmember Driscoll. Thank you. And thank you for the presentation. It's been exciting to go along this journey with you. And I love the work that's been that's been done so far. And thank you for Going so far above and beyond to make sure that people have an opportunity to weigh in. It's so important and anyone who sees this can see that you really listened. So thank you for that. Absolutely. way in. It's so important and anyone who sees this can see that you really listened. So thank you for that. Absolutely. Oh, for our to point out, we do have zoomed in maps of some of the recommendations, particularly St. Pete there, the full county over there, and down tone over there. We had a similar use these exact same maps in our public hearing that we had last week. I think the only thing they were missing are the bagels. So sorry about that. But we did bring the maps with us but I did also bring swag that I'll be putting in front of you momentarily. Oh nice. Don't make up with the legs. in our public hearing that we had last week. I think the only thing we're missing are the bagels. So sorry about that, but we did bring the maps with us. But I did also bring swag that I'll be putting in front of you momentarily. So nice. I'll make up with the lack of bagels. Thank you. Question about the downtown area and kind of cleaning that up to make it work better for more people, the transfer hub. My first thought was, oh, well, we're going back to the hub that spoke approach, whereas maybe eight years ago, it switched to the grid system. So this kind of feels like we're going back to something. I know it's not, but I've bringing this up for explanation purposes. And what do you see that transfer hub looking like? Would it be an enhanced shelter? Something that's a good experience as people are coming in going from that hub. Tell us more about this. No, absolutely. So I think something that we've reiterated to our, and our conversation with Evan is that to the extent possible, we want to utilize our existing real estate downtown. And so we already have a few stops with pretty good amenity coverage. So for example, I'm thinking of the stop on 4th Street and 1st Avenue South where we have a pretty large shelter there. And not a lot of the buses would pass through there. A lot of the buses probably passed through on the public's on third street where those kind of that I know there's not seating but there is the nearby at least kind of canopy on that writers can stand under but that being said A lot of the buses will probably pass through on the public's on third street, where there's kind of that, I know there's not seating, but there is the nearby at least kind of canopy on that riders can stand under. But that being said, certainly want to continue to work with Evan and his team to identify potential locations where maybe we could put in shelters, admittedly that may be a challenge in certain locations, maybe due to the right of where, easement constraints, certainly want to enhance the passenger waiting environments in these transfer hubs to the extent possible. All right, thank you. Yep, we're not going back to Williams Park. Thank you. Needed to make sure that got out there. I don't know. There was a crazy council member that supported getting diesel buses out of Williams Park a few years ago. I wonder who that would have been. I have no idea. I think to remember her ring, an orange vest one morning, directing people on how to use the new hub and spoke system. That's why I got hired. And thank you for explaining with the survey that you did where it said the draft network will be better for the county overall. I was kind of wondering what the reasons for the people gave for disagreeing or strongly disagreeing. And it sounds like it's not that there's something wrong with it just that people want more of this. No, exactly. And I think certain writers certainly made comments about their particular routes, but it may have just been like one or two comments. It forces a bunch of comments about, you know, needing more better cross county travel times, more frequency, more span of service. So those were like the biggest themes on people just understandably want more, which is why I really am emphasizing that this is the springboard from which we can make future improvements, it's certainly not the finish line. Right, they may have to walk two more blocks to the bus stop, but then there's a guaranteed transfer that didn't exist before. So it's all kind of a balancing act. Right, right, well, hopefully we can continue our advocacy efforts to get more funding so that we can meet those those wishes More efficiently. Yeah, that's all I have. Thank you. Great. We'll go to councilmember fig sanders. Thank you. Good morning Good morning. We just saw you guys Well, first of all, I want to thank you all for the work that you've put in on this, but I really wanted to share how impressed I have been with the process. I'm just impressed with PSTA overall. And the part that really impresses me the most is how well you listen. You allow us board members to just ask you the most insane questions sometimes and you generally come up with every answer We get down to the detail of bus stops and in particular bus stops when we were looking at this Connection and you all had a response For all of those so this process I thought Went well You know my biggest thing on thing on this, what's the marketing and educating the writers. But last week when we had people speak during open form, every person that spoke, someone from our staff, went to them personally to meet them where they were, to find out what their needs were, and how we can change whatever dissatisfaction that they had in the process. And for me that was huge. That was huge. So, you know, I just wanted to explain that we hear what our residents, especially our writers are saying. But it's also important to know that as we try to make these changes the support that you all need to get it done because the board didn't look like the board four years ago or three years ago. And we want to keep our writers first and foremost. So thank you, congratulations. You listen, you put a lot of thought into these routes. You really do. I was impressed with how much detail, Dier doing a great job since you've been there. I don't think I've told you that since you've been hired a great job and you make the meetings worth attending because you provide us information that we can really take away to our constituents. So thank you for that. Wow. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you so much. As policymakers, you all spend a lot of time looking at the whole system map and the 10,000 foot view. But the community outreach is still important because a lot of the people that you represent and who are our bus riders, what matters to them is the curbside experience. Is that bus on time? Is it clean? Do they feel safe? Is there a shelter when it's really hot or raining? So that's where the whole balance is. So thank you very much for that feedback. Vice Chair Vashir Hanowitz. Thank you chair and welcome back, Darden. Thank you for the presentation. Jacob, thank you so much for the presentation. Um, I just have a question I was curious. I'm, I'm not on the board of PSTA and maybe it's something you cover. But on the slide where you talk about increased access to jobs, what is the data source where you get the jobs that are available? Obviously it talks about in the evening, and so does that include when certain places are open and opening, so I just want to kind of get an idea of how you get this data to show the increases. Absolutely, so this data is based on data from the census, particularly from the American community survey, I believe, jobs numbers for Penel's County. And so basically, like a geofence is created around the bus stops within the network to provide the catchment area for the number of jobs access. So that's where we're getting that data from. OK. And then that data, like includes opening out. Is it just like, okay, we know that these places are there? Or how do you know if they're open or not? And the e-mail, you know, that's e-mail. Oh, you see what I mean? Because this is like focusing on evening. So there are places that are closed, right? And then there are places that are open and e-mail. For sure. admittedly it doesn't get into that well, nuance since the data is very high level, but I think it's just kind of a measure that we use similar to population that we certainly use in addition to. into that little nuance since the data is very high level, but I think it's just kind of a measure that we use similar to population that we certainly use in addition to access to jobs to measure how we reach folks. But I'd be happy to share the report with you that kind of gets into a lot more detail, the looking at both jobs, population, and other factors, because there's a lot more data that's gone into this than what's in this report. Yeah, I'm just curious just because nowadays there's so much flexibility in terms of places and how they're open. I mean, how many times I go to a place and it's closed on the Monday? And I think it's open. Yeah. Or on the Tuesday or just a random day. And so I'm just curious how like all that data is collected lately to kind of, you know, figure those things out. So absolutely. Okay, thank you. Thank you chair. Great. Any other council member givens? Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I appreciate all the work that both of you are doing. Jacob Darden, thank you so much for your advocacy with public transit. Definitely think it's something that we need more of here in Pinellas County overall. I have had the opportunity to attend a couple of the South-Safety Connecting Mobility Study workshops at the place that they have hosted in the past couple of weeks. And they've been awesome. My question for you all is, can you share publicly what we've found to be some of the factors and barriers with getting people on these buses and connecting them to PSTA? I know how important of an asset. It is in our community, but I don't think a lot of people really value it as much as others. So can we talk about that? No, absolutely. I think a few things that come to mind, and I've been a part of some outreach efforts, particularly in that community recently. Like for example, I staffed the Cog Green Festival for several hours, which was a great event. I also want some really good food there, but that's besides the point. So talking with a lot of writers that came up to the booth there and at other events, you know, a lot of people may not be aware of certain things that they qualify for, or even the programs exist. So for example, a lot of some people may not know about our transportation disadvantage program where writers can get a low cost bus pass and in St. Pete, of course, thanks to your generous support, that it's of no cost to them. And we've done significant marketing around it, but the marketing efforts only go so far. And a lot of people in those communities may not don't even know that that exists. So that's certainly one barrier. I think another barrier, and I think this is something you see nationwide that for a lot of people who aren't as familiar with taking transit that first trip can seem pretty overwhelming. You know, it's like, oh, do I, where do I, where do I board? How do I find out where my bus is coming? How do I pay my fare or not pay my fare in the case of certain individuals who qualify for programs? So I think there's certainly, and I think we try to do this to the extent possible with community education, but you know, in a county of almost a million people, we can only do so much. And I think we try to really, you know, promote the use of transit to as many other groups as possible who can help spread our message. But I think that's something we could certainly explore additional ways to do to kind of address some of those barriers to people running care. It's that's such a great question council member given. we could certainly explore additional ways to do to kind of address some of those barriers to people running transit. That's such a great question. Councilmember Givens, it really goes to the heart of a lot of what we do. We're always pioneering new projects. We're thrilled to work with the U-PASS program and Councilmember Floyd's district with Kenwood where we negotiated with the Kenwood Neighborhood Association, Historic Kenwood Neighborhood Association, so that when people join that neighborhood association, they get their neighborhood badge becomes a free path. It's not free, it's been negotiated and paid for it. But it becomes like a fringe benefit for becoming part of the neighborhood association. And that's part of this way of just kind of demystifying getting on the bus and really destigmatizing it as well. All great information. And we would love to see that spread. And neighborhood and business associate. And I'm aware of these programs and I try to tell more people you know you have to educate the masters. People perish from a lack of knowledge sometimes they just don't know. I'd love to see the city possibly collaborate with PSDA on a marketing campaign. You know get on board you know three years for me people just need to know that these resources are out there and they're at their disposal. So thank you so much. And then lastly, you brought up something else that I wanted to mention, which is what's taking place in Council Member Floyd's district over in Kenwood, the U-PASS program. There have been any conversations about expanding that to Kona or other neighborhood associations to incentivize my membership. Yes. Yes. We're all smiling. Yes. I'm a new house. I'm not privy to this thing for me. Thank you. They're banging down our doors. Yes. Thank you so much. This one so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And they've done a fantastic job and I think we are expanding with the edge district. Yes. They have their pass. Yes. Very new. Thank you, Charlie. Yeah, the second that the UPass program was announced, I like, opened my phone to eight messages from other neighborhoods interested in it as well. So yeah, I guess. No good turn goes unpunished. And I'm glad you mentioned it is something that the neighborhood pays for but then it does provide service that's free at the point of service instead of you pay for it ahead of time. So we'll go to councilmember Driscoll. Thank you. I thought this might be a great time to bring up an item that I have on the referral list, which is the discussion on universal basic mobility. The reason we haven't come back yet is because as we've been talking and we explored the U-pass thing and really looking at what we could offer, what we found and by we I mean me Evan Cheryl in our conversations and also with Brad Miller, the CEO of PSTA, is that the awareness and that education is really the missing piece even more so than the funding because there are so many people who do not know that we have transportation disadvantage programs and that there is a UPS opportunity and there are all of these great resources that we already have. We just need to help make sure the people know what they are, make sure they can connect to them. And as Jacob mentioned, with some folks, it's really just about teaching them how to ride the bus, which seems it's like second nature to us, you know what I mean? But you know what? If I had a bicycle, I would not know how my bicycle gets on the front of that bus. Things like that. So what we've talked about doing is rather than spending money on a program that would be offered to people who already have discount or free resources available. Why don't we look at investing in communication and education around this and partnering with PSTA to take the great work that you're doing out in the community to the next level and not stopping with the bus because UBM was not just about bus service, but also about you know, a multimodal approach. All of that together I think, you know, a lot of people don't know that they may qualify for a discount on using eScooters or the eBikes. We need to do a better job of communicating and educating and giving people hands-on experience with it so that they're comfortable with it. So I will be bringing that back. I will certainly let you know when we're ready, but I just wanted to give a heads up that we're kind of shifting to that because I think it's clear that education and awareness is the real step that we need to take Thank you Thank you chair and I'm gonna kind of piggyback on that as well because council member given and Council member Driscoff said the same thing education. How many of us have written a bus yet? So I'm thinking that might be a great field trip for us one day to get on the sun runner, write the bus experience and especially the new electric buses, those are really nice. And see so that we can actually sell what we're trying to promote. And then I also prefer early, preferably individually. Yes. I was eyes twitching. Oh, oh, you mean because that's the, yeah, yeah, yeah. My son's son's, my wife's son's went off there. OK, you know what? And that's the sunshine thing. Just it's nice outside, but you forget it inside when you're trying to talk about problems, I forgot. But anyway, make a personal effort, I actually ride one of the buses and I wouldn't know how to catch a bus either. You know, I have to look at it and figure out the time and chart it out, but when you're taking straight routes, okay, that's easy. But for us to do that, but I do agree that the marketing is huge, you know, whatever that the city can do to help educate the riders on that, that would be it important to do. And I don't know how we start that conversation, but that's something that I totally agree with. Thank you, Chair. All right. Any other committee members, council members? All right. Thank you so much for the presentation. I'm really excited about the changes coming forward. I believe you all will implement them as well as possible and we'll move forward with a more connected community. I will also add, I started writing the bus in college and yes, I was very intimidated the first time I got on it. It was very confusing. And the thing that made it the easiest for me in my experience to serriting the bus was whenever routes are free and you just get on and you just get off. So I hope we as a city and as a county continue conversations in that direction because that really not just makes it easier for the rider, but I think the driver also is less point of friction for everyone involved in the system. So, I mentioned that for everyone. But thank you again very much. I really appreciate it. And I hope to have you back again soon to continue to hear about this topic. Thank you it's been a delight and it's always a delight to work with Evan Mori and his staff and what can we say St. Pete you're like the most favored nation status and so we look forward to working with you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, a committee committee council members we're going to move on to our second item which we have 32 minutes for. We have 32 minutes for our next item. Yeah. So I appreciate the well-attended meeting. Thank you so much. Please. Our next item is residential land development regulation update. We're joined by Liz Abernathy and Cory Milischa. And now at this time, we have 31 minutes left for our second item. So that everyone's aware. Well, I speak pretty quickly, so hopefully. Good morning. I'm also joined by Deputy Zone Officials Scott Ballyard. He'll be helping me with this presentation. This was the outcome before the HLUT in September. We were asked to bring back some of the updates that have been made since. Of course, we were on a delay for a little while because of the storms. So hopefully this will move forward after today to DRC in April and City Council in May. So as you know, in 2007 we did a citywide rezoning and later in 2017 we did adopt floor area ratio bonuses and our traditional neighborhoods. This came out of concerns from a lot of the historic areas of building two large of homes. And this was actually initiated by Lizette Bernathy, one of her first projects when she joined the city. And then in 2019, we provided just a general update. And now here we are today since the adoption of 2017, about 2,000 new homes were constructed with 356 new homes utilizing the bonus structure that was adopted in 2017. So the proposed update for the residential is to really evaluate the FAR bonuses in the sea of their working. I addressed several items presented at council committee meetings as well as including toements to the code language. Just every day we hear new things from new customers and always trying to keep our code up today as much as possible or there's a lot of confusion and gray areas in the code that need to be refined. Some of the things that we have done, we looked at doing some additions to the FAR bonuses as well as changing and modifying some of those, which we'll talk about today, as well as our building design regulations that are also included, which were adopted as the O7 LDRs, and the design regulations are citywide. So looking predominantly here again for residential and making tweaks to those. Again, we hear from our constituents both the development side as well as the residential resident side. We had some upgrades to the fence regulations. We're looking at a payment in Luford sidewalk, doing some additional language for structures and flood zones. We've been dealing with a lot of home especially ins insure acres that are wanting to elevate. Unfortunately, a lot of those homes don't meet current setbacks. So how do we make the process easier for them instead of being taking them through a variance process that delays that? Is that could take additional six weeks? And again, just cleaning up some inconsistencies in the code. And again, this is just a reiteration of what I already talked about really looking at why we adopted the FAR. And I'm going to let Scott talk about kind of some of the changes and revisions to the bonuses. All right. This first change is a minor change for front facade articulation. You currently get a .06 bonus for each additional foot of front facade articulation. It maxes out at .1. By providing the minimal articulation, you get the maximum bonus, so we are going to remove the per foot bonus. The next one is for planning larger shade trees. It has a typo. It says the minimum spread required is eight to 10 inches when it should be eight to 10 feet. Next is the current FAR bonus for solar ready is vague to address this. We're adding a 200, we're adding that a 200 amp electric panel and conduit running to the roof are required to be provided to be solar ready. And we are also reducing that bonus from 0.02 to 0.01 to offset new bonuses for solar installation that provide a 0.01 bonus per kilowatt installed up to 0.03 and .01 bonus for residential EV charging capabilities. During stakeholder meetings last year, attendees from historic neighborhoods indicated that new homes are typically built with taller interior ceiling heights and lower foundation walls, resulting in new homes with lowered front porches and increased building heights compared to the historic homes in their neighborhoods. Based on this feedback, staff is proposing a .03 bonus for homes with front porches elevated a minimum of 18 inches above grade, where 12 inches is currently required with limitations on building height to encourage construction of new homes that are more to scale with existing historic homes in the historic neighborhoods. A workshop was held with DRC members and one of the commissioners expressed an interest in adding a bonus for quality materials on exterior facades. So staff is proposing a .05 bonus when exterior facades are proposed with solid wood siding brick, stone, or wrought iron throughout all structures. And a .03 bonus is proposed when brick or stone veneer or hardy border utilize. Staff has also been seeing a prevalence of new homes built to maximize the entire buildable area of the lot with large two story box like structures to help break the box. A new FAR bonus is proposed for providing a minimum 20 foot separation between the principal and accessory structures as well as between second floor portions of the principal structure. And we can see on the top photo here, the massing stretches from the front set back line to the rear, and on the bottom one it's, you can see that break is provided. Another new FAR bonus is proposed for preservation of existing grantees. It will grant a .02 bonus for each tree with the maximum bonus of .04. Preservation of existing on-site grantees is currently not incentivized. So here are existing homes in special flood hazard areas. Typically cannot adhere to required setbacks when elevating the structure to meet current beam flood elevation. To address this one, staff is proposing a minor encroachment option to allow an existing single family home to be elevated to meet FEMA requirements when specific criteria is met. Another change for properties and flood zones is to add an allowable encroachment for wooden platforms for energy meters as these platforms typically encroach into the required side yard setback. Staff has been processing numerous variances for these platforms and they're really only usable for servicing the meters. The picture on the left here is a home with the double-bagged garage door that's typically 16 feet and width on the right is a home with two single-bagged doors. Single-bagged doors have been found to enhance the visual interest and architectural quality of homes compared to the double-bagged doors. With an NT2 and three districts, garages are required to face an alley when present. Garages that face a primary street are limited to 40 percent of the width of the home and when they face the side street and about a neighbor's front yard, the single-bagged garages are required. This code change expands that requirement to all street facades, excluding alleys. Next is for repetitive design. The code requires home to be varied throughout, or the code requires new homes to be varied all of their homes within three parcels of each other. The minimum of three board, three of four variations required. It's architectural style, roof form, building materials and architectural details. These regulations do not account for new homes. Proposed with a different number of stories or varied heights and widths. With the proposed change, new homes with varied habitable stories will not be considered repetitive. We're also adding a fifth variation for new homes with different front facade heights and widths. Next up is currently doors, windows and other details are required on all sides of a home with no blank facades allowed greater than 16 feet and width. This can create challenges when a kitchen or closet is proposed on the interior of the home. And they've got cabinets or shelves that make providing a window or other feature in practical. So the proposed change would allow for blank facades up to 20 feet and width on interior and rear facades located in the rear one third of the lot when they're not visible from a right of way. We got a change to ADU's to allow them in the neighborhood suburban single family zone districts on lots with at least 4,500 square feet that are located on an alley and also on corner lots that meet the minimum lot area requirement. At this time NS corner lots and lots on alleys must meet both the minimum lot area and with requirements. Next one is for a side setback waiver request for docs. When a property owner seeks a site setback reduction for a doc, they get the sign off from the budding neighbor on the side where the setback reduction is requested. After that, notices are made to all waterfront properties within 200 feet on both sides of the request. This allows property owners that are not affected by the request to appeal it to a public hearing. In all instances where this occurred The DRC has approved the setback reduction, so we want to change this to revise it so that only waterfront property owners within 200 feet on the affected side of the setback waiver request notified and the last amendment on the slide is to add an exception for installation of walkways between public sidewalks and curves that do not meet ADA slow requirements due to existing grades. So, another addition would be to do a payment in lieu for sidewalks. We've received many requests over the years for variances, where sidewalks do not make sense because of the existing development pattern. Either, and we, even in some of our historic neighborhoods in Old Northeast, there's certain districts that have no sidewalks, and the new house has to go on, and it just doesn't make sense. And some of the neighborhood associations agree with this a lot, of course, the developers as well. And our transportation department is working on a sidewalk master plan, so that's what the money would be used for. So if you're not going to build it here, we'll take your money and we'll implement it elsewhere through Evans department. And so we're going to establish this. There's going to be criteria. And there's no guarantee we're just not going to give away you know this. You know, we have to look at what's the existing conditions. Is it within proximity to a school or a park. There's some comp plan elements that we have to follow as well. There will be an appeal process as everyone's due process, so that would go to the commission as well. And then we are working with transportation and engineering to establish what is that base fee. Of course, that people have to change every year just due to the increase in construction costs. Another item for debate that came up in 2019 was metal fences. We've seen people wanting to do corrugated metal fences. So we did some outreach and know people don't want that. So we would allow something that is a metal fence, but a metal fence that is not corrugated metal is not a roofy material. You know, we already allow a aluminum picket, rod iron, but this will just put an additional language that can't be, you know, reflective, can't be shiny, so that doesn't, you know, impact the hovers. Also another thing that came up from Councilmember Alexander's was the design of walls are 150 feet in length or not and some of them, especially in the neighborhoods where you know you have this picture up on the top where you have a new 6 foot tall solid masonry wall running over 150 feet. So it seemed to be extremely imposing to the neighborhood. So still allowing you know properties of this length that would still be able to have a 6 foot tall fence but requiring that only four feet of that fence or wall can be solid, the upper two feet would have to be opaque. And also looking at this is just some of the outreach that we had. We initially presented this in September just hearing from some of the communities. So we had two different meetings. We held them at Suncoast Hop at Hospice, Ampath, excuse me. And some of the neighborhoods just talking about, you know, looking at eliminating the bonus to porches, which we did not. We did look at the second bonus down, increasing the bonus from porch to 18 inches, decreasing the overall height down to be more consistent with the older homes, as well as looking at the scale and sizes of the existing houses in the neighborhood. Other comments included non-traditional fencing materials and a green wood code that they didn't want roofing materials. They liked the payment and lieu option, and they also did the potential domestic equipment in the front yard. We've met with TBBA, which is the Tampa Bay Builders Association. So many people in maybe no-can-fee builders as part of this organization. So we deal with them a lot as well. They do a lot of construction in the older neighborhoods. So that's why we did some tweaks to the registration requirements. We did also the change to the sidewalk or walkway between the South American curb because of ADA requirements. And we made a couple of little tweaks to the repetitive style design. That's just additional comments from them. And these were the comments made by HLUT back in September. So it was basically general support for the non-traditional fencing materials, interest in requirements for the bonuses related to the physical massing of structures as well as the ADUs that were brought up and the sidewalk payment. And then of course we took this to a DRC workshop. So they did have some concerns. You know we do have architects that sit under commission and planners, real estateers. So they felt that reducing building heights from what they are now would actually be a bad idea because the current market, you know, people do like their dollar ceilings. They didn't want to add additional articulation to the exterior facade as one of our commissioners. He said that basically houses are boxes. So let's actually do quality materials. So that's where the quality materials from is came from. Because if you look at a lot of the houses in the neighborhoods, they typically look like rectangles or squares with their articulated nice materials. Also, just making sure that if we do give a bonus for the trees that we have an arborist report to make sure that trees were saving, which is typically what we do for our commercial developments when we look at saving trees. We also, again, they didn't like our definition of Bay Window when we said 50% glazing. They would rather have us look at dimensions to the Bay Window. But from a lot of our research, communities do it both ways. A lot of them do say 50% glazing. Some do say limit that to a third of the facade. Right now, we are just leaving it at the 50%. And again, looking at the wall heights, they didn't have an issue with that either. And so that's kind of where we are at today. There was a lot in the short period. Yeah, it's real hot actually, but we want to leave some. I just wanted to add two other things that we're going to be putting in with this package. One is an ADA kind of a waiver. We're going to call it for reasonable accommodations. There's other communities that have a process for which somebody comes asking for a reasonable accommodation. Our variance process is the only way to really deal with that, but variance is run with the land and a reasonable accommodation is individual individual specific so we're going to be coming up with a process that allows folks to not have to go through the cumbersome variance process and we're going to get some input also from a lendels office on that and that's really the big thing I want to add for now. Thank you. Committee members, council member Driscoll. Thank you. I'll be quick. With the blank facade, with in the rear one, third of the lot, do you have any before and after photos? Do you have examples that you can show? If not today, can you follow up with that? So that you can show us what the deal is right now? And one that would look, you know, if we make these changes. That would be great. Just, I can kind of see it, but I think a... There's a little representation there. Yeah, really helpful on that one, thanks. Very good. With this sidewalk, it sounds like this change and this payment in lieu would be restricted, because we like sidewalks. We need more sidewalks. But I like that there's a payment in lieu of the sounds like it would be for not having a sidewalk on a block where there is no sidewalk anywhere else. Because we've had this come up before. We've also had instances where, and this might just be a downtown thing, the wider sidewalk requirement makes it a wide sidewalk just in front of that property where nothing else on that block or the next block or the next block is the wider sidewalk and it's not a block where future development is going to be happening because it's already been done before we widened the sidewalk requirement. Are we is there a way for us to fix that part too? We can. I know some of that came out of the complete streets as well which I think Evan's still here where they had you know certain depending on what neighborhood you were, what street you're on, and I think downtown, it's in the street level, they said 10 feet. You know, some districts, it's 8 feet, but, and that's why we came up with, okay, we'll allow parts of the sidewalk to narrow up to 8 for our trees and our landscape planners, but the majority is 10. Do we look at it as 8 and then 6? things like that. I want to like having the chime in from the complete street standpoint. I don't want to put you on the spot. But it's something we can look at. Yeah. I just I just I think we should be flexible when it's when it's reasonable and obvious. Yes. I know the project we did on 4th Avenue. That's the one I was thinking thinking of as the example and I think we were able to not make them put in a big sidewalk. Yeah, they did a lot more planners in there so when you go by it, it would transition to be a little wider. But then when you're there, you have all these planters through it so it's not looking like it's all pavement. Yeah. The family would be a great ground. I'm like, dude, you still got the fence up. OK, so that's great. And then my last one for now is about trees. And this, the Arbist report, can you? And I know that we are hindered somewhat by state regulations on what we can and can't require regarding trees. But I wonder with this one, this is from the DRC comments, our press reports may utilize for confirmation that an existing tree can be preserved on the site prior. So that one's not about taking out a tree. So are we going to be or do we already, sorry, just don't know, so why are an Arbis report for every tree on a property? This is in return for giving an FAR bonus. We want to make sure the tree really is going to be of equality that it will survive the construction, that it is worth, said that it's worth saving. So we don't want to give a bonus to allow a bigger house and then have the tree cut down six months later because it didn't survive. So in return for getting the bonus, that's where they're doing the report. Okay. And we have where we've had variance cases in the past required an arborist to be on staff during the construction process as well because we want to make sure that the tree is properly prepared for the construction process, because there's root pruning and fertilizing that can be done ahead of construction to help make sure that that tree survives. In addition to the tree barricades and making sure the workers aren't piling stuff on the roots and driving across the roots and making sure it's pruned properly. So again, when we're giving a bonus for something to save a tree, we wanna make sure that tree is going to survive. So that's where the arborist report and then being part of the maintenance and the construction process comes into play. And there's a difference too currently like we don't have protections like we do in our commercial projects like for single family or duplexes so for commercial projects it's typical we have to earn our risk report because we require certain percentage of trees to be saved so we want to make sure that while the ones are saving are in good shape otherwise. Otherwise why are you going to save those trees when you're in a nice healthy new tree? The same thing too is if some of these sites get so tight and they're saying I've got to take these down and it's in bad shape. Well show me that it's in bad shape. So on the residential ones they do come in to get a tree removal apartment or our risk does go out to verify and look at the the tree, you know, they look at options, you know, okay, that tree can be saved or maybe needs to be pruned. But this is like Liz said, if or maybe needs to be pruned. But this is like Liz said, if you're going to get a bonus, we want to make sure that tree is healthy and can be preserved in its spot and not. You're going to go for it and then it comes down or gets damaged and now you've got to make up for that. And we've used that same process where people are asking for variances to setbacks in order to save a tree. We want to make sure they go through the right and help them to make sure they understand that you really do need an arborist as part of that process to make sure that the tree is prepared properly and can survive the construction, intrusion, and activity. We want documentation from a profession. Yeah, right. And would this be something we would follow up on like throughout the construction in the neighborhood? So we do go out and do inspections. So this is our traditional neighborhoods. Scott's division, he handles this. So him and his planners actually will go out and do site inspections to verify that they're compliant with their approved permitted plans and that the bonuses that they saw are everything's on site. So we've had people that do the large trees, we go out there they're not large, you know, sorry you're rejected you gotta take those trees out put in a nutrient. So if someone comes up and they damage that tree there is a penalty to that for that and then they would have find another bonus. And part of that report is the arborist preparing the plant. So the root pruning and limb pruning plant. And then that's reviewed by arborist. And often arborist meets their arborist down the field to look at major limbs that may or may not need to be cut depending on the height. So it's an iterative process with their arborist, our arborist, making sure that the design of the house and what happens before during an after construction to help improve the survivability for the children. The minimal distance is from the tree to the house. I mean, you can't put a house right out the tree. You know, our arborist likes 15, 20 feet, especially from large trees, so that you know down the road. I need to take the tree down, because it's encroaching into my foundation. So we do evaluate that too. Excellent. And finally, Liz, is this your last APLU team meeting? I think it may be., I was going to announce at the end. Thank you. And this won't be the last time we see you, but last A.O.U.T. meeting, I'm glad you're here and presenting this. And it just really is such a great example of a small example. It's a lot of stuff, but it's a small example of the incredible work that you've done for our city. And this committee won't even be the same without you. Thank you. And I'm not going to cry, so I'm just going to wrap it up. We're going to go to councilmember Harding next. Thank you, Chair. The appologized, I think I'm a little behind everyone else in the room the the idea of the sidewalks. First just so I understand what what triggers homeowners needing to build a sidewalk is it all new construction or is it there's there you know x amount of permitting that you might be doing at your house. The new homes and neighborhood traditional districts are required to provide a sidewalk on both sides of the street. If you're in a neighborhood suburban district, it's only on the north and west sides of streets. Okay. New construction. New construction. And again, if you would, the in lieu of payment, where would that money go again? Or where does it sit or how is it limited in its application? So just like we do above all our other funds, so it'll come into a fund that we would establish. We would assess the fee of time of permitting. They would have this submit an application saying I want to do a payment in lieu, because we'll make a comment where's your sidewalk. And if it's something we can support based on criteria that there's no other sidewalks, it's not near school, there's no plan they have a sidewalk here, elevation issues, tree issues, utilities issues, those are things we look for. We also run a by our engineering department and our transportation department because those are the experts too. It's not just in planning. So if we agree to that, we'll assess the fee. They will provide that fee to us when they pick up the permit and it goes into a fund. Like a lot of our other funds that exist here. We have our open space fund. We have an art fund, our historic, sorry, our housing and cabinet improvement funds, which is my department collects. But other departments use that money. So it would be Evans Department, once he establishes his master plan, that they would take that money to the side blocks. Okay, so that money would be it would be Evans Department once he establishes his master plan that they would take that money to build sidewalks. Okay, so that that money would be limited very strictly to sidewalks. Yes, correct. Okay. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, Chair. All right. Council vice chair, hand on this. Thank you. I thought you said the council member fixed it. Did you have anything? You had. Yeah, but I saw you first. I know he's on the committee. I can go ask her. Yeah, I'm sorry. No, no, you're on the committee. Go ahead. I just want to say thank you on the committee. I can go ask her. Yeah, I'm sorry. No, no, you're on the committee. Go ahead. I just want to say thank you for the project that I brought that started like what three years ago. So I'm just being very cordial today because I'm glad to see it finally making it on paper. I don't know if it'll, you know, change the current situation that we've had, but I think moving forward, this is a great addition and I was patient and you all were patient. So thank you so much for this. I appreciate it. Thank you, Chair. All right. Now, thank you, Chair. So I remember this 2017. I was actually on the ground floor in the neighborhoods. I remember all the input that you got and you all did such a great job kind of Coming up with something it was a ton of work Clearly a ton of work into this a lot of material you went through it extremely quickly, which is fantastic The only thing I want to add and it's something that we have discussed Liz before on some of the issues that have arisen and and's come up before at City Council. We have in the CRT districts, we have town homes that are going up and they don't have the same design standards. And so what happens is you have these neighborhoods that have certain design standards, you're building town homes on these quarters on the, not matching. And that's caused issues. And I know we talked about having some of the, some standards to make sure that these town homes kind of fit with the neighborhoods in the CRTs. So if you can talk about that because you were thinking it could possibly be going here. And it would make sense as opposed to waiting for the quarter part of it. Yeah, so Corey and I agree with the idea of adding that to this package and Corey had some feedback that for the and I'll let him speak. Adding some requirements for porches could help break up that flat facade that we're seeing a three-story flat facade building provides. So Cory, do you want to use better at articulating design? So I mean most of our traditional neighborhoods which is CRT is traditional. You know they usually will be elevated. We do find some in some of the townhome areas with they do have the elevate to be a foot above crown and you see some of that especially like on first avenue some of the older townhomes they did put stupes in you know and you know we look at and again it depends on the architectural style so a stuped would go with a colonial style but not necessarily something that's gonna be more of a four square traditional so there's opportunities to ensure like a porch is required, just like we do in NT. We say you have to have a porch in the porches of a certain size. Me, it might not be as big here because our town rooms are a lot smaller. Where we say in 48 square feet in NT, it's six foot wide, six foot depth, you know, by at least four feet. This might be something that's more of a stoop size, it might be a little smaller, but it will still articulate. And some of them would require to have grooves because we would have to go with architectural style. So that would help break up that long facade. There's also different things. We want to be careful. We hear both sides that you don't honestly want to un-delay the facade because then increases costs now because of the foundation. But there could be changes in materials potentially if there's such a length to the building where there's an offset. Or we do have it, we'll be in our district of Bay System, which is the height ratio to width and ensuring that it's complied with cheap prevent just along facade with no break. So I think what we should do is draft some language and get that to all of you. So as we want to keep this package moving forward and then we can have one on one's if there's feedback and that way we can go ahead and get this change because this is happening next to the traditional neighborhoods, which like we said require porches, but townhouses aren't required porches, so this will help. And we might have some language that it's, you know, where it's a butting a traditional neighborhood. This is a requirement. Right. We can refine it so it's not, you know, it's backing up to an industrial area, then maybe you don't need that because the consistency of style. So we'll get that language out and we can answer questions. I know we're time limited. And thank you for those council members have the traditional neighborhoods. You understand we're getting some of those and then you get pushed back. And Dave figured out it's because of the design, the different design standards and it's not kind of, and so they've been trying to look at it in a way where they can go ahead and find a solution so that way, the neighbors and everyone's kind of happier and it kind of is consistent with the neighborhood. And I know this packet was sent to you, I think, everyone. So if everyone does want to have it, individuals one-on-one beyond today, we are available. Okay. That's was it. Thank you, Chair. All right, any other council members? Okay. Thank you very much for this. I appreciate it. I do have two quick things. One is, you mentioned an appeal on sidewalk fees. I wasn't sure I understood that. Like, if you could go into depth. So it's a due process for, so we have this for other items in our code where the POD, which would be me, would have the final say if we're gonna support that payment in lieu. So they may not agree with that. So it's an appeal process where they can appeal my denial of the payment in lieu and I would to the commission. And we do that for property card interpretations or billable lot letters where we're telling people like you don't have this process. So it's an appeal process for the commission to make that decision. Okay. You want to? Yeah. I'm just with the fee though. I haven't seen, can you point to other parts in the code where you can appeal a fee? Like this is more like almost like an impact fee. Well, it's a payment and it's either installed a sidewalk or goes installed. I think it's not that the fee that they're appealing, it's the denial of their ability to pay the fee to pay the fee instead of building the sidewalk. So if we say no, we don't agree. You have to build the fee instead of building the sidewalk. So if we say no, we don't agree. You have to build the sidewalk. You have to build the sidewalk. That's what's being appealed. And they can appeal all that. OK. I love the payment of them. Got it. Got it. You know, I love due process. Yeah. No, we still want them to pay. Yeah. Got it. OK. Yeah, it chumped out at me because I couldn't think of another scenario when that happened. Okay. Because they still have an opportunity. Nope, makes little sense. Yeah. Got it. OK. Yeah, it chumped out at me because I couldn't think of another scenario when that happened. OK. Because they still have an opportunity to make little sounds. Yeah. If I deny the payment in lieu, then it can request it very easily. But I'm going to be like, no. So yeah, so it's basically makes your legal happy. All right. Thank you very much for that. The only other comment I have is I see that domestic equipment was brought to the community and didn't receive positive feedback. I still personally would like to see some sort of compromise that means people who don't have side yards or alley access could store some amount of domestic equipment on their property, specifically boats and whatnot, small boats. But I see that we did not get great feedback on that. But I do want to reiterate my support for some amounts of compromise there. But that's all. And I appreciate you all for presenting us a good amount of information in an efficient manner. Anyway, Liz, thank you very much. I'm really glad I got to be a part of your last HLUT meeting, but we'll see you soon. So I'll leave it there for now. Committee members, thank you so much for a really productive meeting this morning. We'll call the March 6th Housing Land Use Transportation. Housing Land Use and Transportation Committee adjourns. We'll run to the adjournment. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. I'm going to do a little bit of the same thing. Thank you.