Katherine Lutz is. She's me mailing. Yep. All happened at the same time. I'm sorry in the future when something like this happens that will also trigger this next thing to happen? It's my opinion that the planning director at the time that the administrative variance was granted in 1998 should have had cleaned this up at that time. Any other discussion? All those in favor? Signify by saying aye. Aye. Any opposed? It passes unanimously. Thank you, Mr. Conrad and Mr. Morkin for helping that go through so quickly. Moving on we have item number 11 public hearing second reading ordinance number two series 2010 minor PUD amendment parcel D East Village PUD. We should reopen the public hearing and see if there's any public like a comment tonight before we get into it. I see no hands-rearing raise. We will continue in the public hearing open. We have this discussion. Mr. Conrad. Mr. Mayor, you will recall that first-rating approval was granted on February 1 for this item and that there was a supplement submitted by the applicants including your packet as attachment 1 to generally show the format of their intention to include this lot as part of the snowmass that has been areas, which would bring it into their fold for architectural design review of any plans, residential plans pertaining to this structure. And that we receive no direction that would constitute an amendment of the ordinance at first reading. The applicant is present to ask, respond any questions that you may have. And I'm available. Should you have any questions? Okay. Any questions we may have of the applicant? Maybe there's a second reading of the ordinance. Read. Do we have a, this is approving it to go back to the single family home. What, phrase it? What category would like a bed and breakfast for them to. If there were a few qualifiers as that be commercial occupation. Okay. No. Maybe. No. No. I haven't looked it up. No, we haven't had a request for one of those for a while. But I'm a successor to any idea. How do I answer to read what that would be to do? We could certainly look at it if that was the applicants request. Right, but since the applicant's not requesting that I just think he was trying to get an idea for yeah, I just Question is if that was proposed would it have to go through any process? Right would it be yes, save time now to include that in yeah Well include that in. Yeah. Well, if you ask the issue, really cared. I don't know. I just, I don't know. I've been on the side of things where I think that use there is best left as commercial. So I was trying to come to a compromise in my own head and apparently just having conversations in my head Okay, we do that when your head starts to answer when you let us know You heard possibly from the community that these guys may be trying to deal. No, okay? That was all my you got you gentlemen aren't talking about new business. No, okay. From a building code standpoint, it's only the side. That's a wild. Right. It is. Okay. Thank you. And you know, you should know that this is almost a conditional approval in that it goes if that's what the buyer wants. So the buyer decides they want to bed breakfast they would come back and ask for another man at that time. It might be a wonderful place for it. But that's not what they're coming for. Okay. Any other questions? Is there a... No, I have no questions. I think you have answered questions that we've asked in the past. And my feeling is we should go forward and support ordinance number two. Oh, is there a motion to support ordinance number two series 2010? So moved. It's Marky Butler. Is there a second? Bill Boyneau, I second it. You have a discussion. I am in the public again one more time. Any comments from the public? Seeing none, hearing none. All those in favor, what we'll call, right? Ordinances. We'll call. All those in favor will call us right ordinances will call Here we are now yes Welcome sir yes Butler yes Okay no Lewis No This is three two ahead talk to you again Thank you very much. Okay. Now we are going to now move on to item number 12. Second reading, ordnance number one, series 2010. Comprehensive plan. You have a number of names on this. Probably the rest. Just in the way of a little introduction between first and second reading, we did receive comments from Pick and County. And we did a brief oral summary of generally how we respond to them at your last meeting. We've attempted to put that in black and white in front of you tonight. I guess there is a, if you characterize their comments, we've responded to all of them in different ways. They have a strong interest in working with us on intergovernmental agreement, addressing a variety of different topics. And again, what you see as a response to that, we're happy to talk about an intergovernmental agreement and bring it back to the appropriate decision-makers you being the decision-maker and snowmast to discuss that. But so I believe there's a reference in chapter 10 in the implementation section that talks to that. The intercept lot was also a piece substantive issue. We had references about affordable housing. That site being a potential site for affordable housing and working with regional partners. And change that explicit recommendation where it's more of a general statement that we should work with our regional partners on transit-ority and development and locating housing where we have transportation nodes. And they shared with us the long history regarding that property. On the water issue, they had a variety, they had a couple of comments on both water quality and quantity. And we wanted to work closely with the water district on this. So we really referred this to them. They gave us some additional language. Their thinking has evolved even since we began the plan and they gave us some additional language which I think responds to both water quality and quantity issues. Does any other major issues, I think there's a variety of other tweaks and changes. Any other major substantive issues from the county? Yep. And we sent these responses to the county and we heard anything back from them. We haven't heard anything. We sent them both the updated comp and them from them. So the memo kind of says generally how we addressed it references you to the specific language in the plan in terms of how it was addressed. The other thing I'd want to acknowledge is John Wilkinson also gave us a few number of comments particularly on illustrations and maps. And there was probably, I mean, jump in, John. There was one map particularly that referenced housing sites, potential housing sites. And given the discussions we had in the actual housing chapter, that map really goes back to 1998. And I think in response, I think it was a good catch and I would propose we simply delete that map. That's what you proposed in the right. All right. That's not that's currently in this document. I would propose we simply eliminate that was. What page is that? That was what pages that I don't delete 9.1 Do we then amend the Ordinary or now I think Direction with the adoption to a John would you like to characterize any of your other comments? I mean, the rest were relatively straightforward comments at its regarding. I had a couple issues with the mapping and the way it was formatted. And I met with Leslie before the meeting tonight and we went over it. She explained a lot of it was in the way that this was printed up on our own printer and that when it's done professionally, a lot of the was in the way this was printed up on our own printer and that when it's done professionally a lot of the colors will be more apparent because in the key there was green as green and you know they made two different things but it was really important. There were some captioned errors that I noticed. I made all the changes on my master copy here and I'd offer this to the council if they have any concerns to take a look at some of these changes we made Leslie and Russ and I both agreed a lot of them were most of them were non-substance of The only one that I felt was substance that I needed to highlight to you was the reference to the potential housing sites That again, I think was a good catch. I felt that if I had gone through this page by page there would have been a lynching. And so it was. Looking you or stuff. Me. Oh, we don't want to do that. That might be interesting. Wait till we get to our piece out front. I remember the question the town attorney had with that. We told we get to the peace out front. I remember the question the town attorney had with that. Part piece, too. OK. So those are my major things. There was some issues with just basically formatting. Anything else? Thank you, John, for all that effort Okay So what else does staff need for us before we finalize this Yeah I'm in the page 48 And then the page 48. And I want to be cautious while I make an observation here. Within the annexation, under the built environment chapter, let's go all begin, it says existing and this gets into the relationship with the PICC in County regarding an IGA. And I guess the first question gets in to, what would be the pros and cons of forming an IGA with PICC in County? I mean, that's a big, it's a policy decision with his town. You're on the pack. Sorry. Yeah, I'm in this right here. Thank you. I'm on page 48. I think that's the first question that I wrote down. What's the pros and cons? What does it give us? And number two, when we get into the concept of governing jurisdictions evaluating land use decisions, then the question became one in my mind and I would hope this would not happen. But referencing the fact that now Pitkin this language that's proposed in the italics and then far more broadly the purpose of an IGA and what's it really going to do for us. I think you need to have those specific discussions because I think you'll find things that may appear fine in terms of, I believe, Chris refers major applications to them today without an IGA for their review. There may be things in here that would really give you pause, such as an impact fee on a brush creek road. That may not be something you want to do. We haven't gotten into any specific discussions with them about that, and all this really does is commit to a discussion. So the response would be there would be things that may find completely acceptable, and there are things that you may not be. And it's just like any agreement, you need to go in with your eyes wide open, and be critical, and ask tough questions, and understand that that has potentially long-term implications. Having said that, does the whole issue of the concept of an IGA or consideration there of a forming one or having discussions really blowing in our comp plan or is that an issue that we might want to think about on a different town council discussion? Well, yeah, I believe you're right, Mark. There is a different town council discussion. That's nothing that we're going to put in our plan, other than saying, we'll have from time to time maybe intergovernmental agreements on certain things between the county and the town of Stomach Village. But I don't think this is a place to say, here is the intergovernmental agreement for out camp, or here it is for you know how they Look at controlling certain things they would like to control But it's just a recognition that you know there may be some Agreements that we agreed to from time to time that will change over the years But I don't know if you need an IGA to have the conversations Well, you don't think we even should have a conversation about it? Well, I think we should have a conversation. That's all this. This is all we're suggesting and we were, we didn't put anything in policies. And the chapter, all we said in chapter 10, which is your implementation section, is fine. We can have a chat about it. We'll engage in discussions. Right. Good. That's Good. Yeah. You raised some really important points. And I'm starting to get a little overbearing. Wow. Pitkin County is on a number of occasions tried to point us in a particular direction, which they wished to go, which was not the direction the town of Sommas Village wished to go. Are the interests are not the same? So, Marky, again, we're simply saying we'll have a chat, but we're not committing to something beyond that. Okay. I wouldn't even put it in, but you wouldn't even put... You know you might talk to him. No, I don't mind talking to them, but you wouldn't even put it in. You know you might talk to him. No, I don't mind talking to them, but I think sometimes when you put us statement and I'm going to do this, the assumption to the common reader is something's going to come out of that. And then if it's negative and then you've got that whole issue to deal with, but you know, you raise a really valid point. why do we even need it in there just because Picking County said they wanted to talk about it you know you know I mean subsequently it doesn't we framed it so it doesn't subsequently change anything you know I think it is recognizing that we you know communities do need to talk and to be open to talk. But that doesn't mean you have to talk about an IGA. Well, you know, it's really the only way, well, it's not the only way. It's a way of communities agreeing on things it is. And the other side of an IGA is, I don't think we would recommend you sign an IGA unless there wasn't some strong benefit to the town. Yeah, and I'm trying to figure out what that might be. It's difficult. Those, those, yeah. It's very difficult to figure that out. But I never know. They may be a gold mine somewhere alone that they'll be willing to give us. I don't know. No. We've got your ring. Anything else? So the second reading of one is already its number one of two thousand and ten of twenty thousand two thousand any comment from public all those on council any more comment from council? No, I just want to add in. One other John? Now that we're adopting this, at this point can we rescind the the moratorium? I think that'll go later. I think the next step is still making some code changes in this. We have a number of things that have been on hold that we're prepared to bring to you as soon as you. Because we do this now, it's that Gris and staff have a lot more work to do. Okay. So, all of that that anybody is building anything, but but yeah John roll call roll call thank you thank you Merwinow yes Welcome son yes Yes yes Yes Thank you very much moving on item number 13 Just a little bit Mr. Mayor I just want to I mean, a lot of community input went into this and I want to thank the community and also the staff. Yes. Very long and hard in your planning commission did an extraordinary job. Thank you. Very good. Thank you. So, we have asked for a little time today to discuss Paul, Paul Benadetti, about Urban Renoul. And so, Paul's here today to do that with us. Thank you. Mr. Domingue, just as a quick introduction, again, I think the town council is identified as a primary goal to try to move completion of the uncompleted buildings across the street. And again, we have both carrots and sticks that potentially could influence that. What rhetorical statement is one of the fundamental challenges we're dealing with. And just was at a conference on Friday talking about the general economy of the state of Colorado. One of the statistics is we've gone from nearly $900 billion in annual construction in the state to nearly $9 to $10 billion in construction. So again one of the fundamental challenges we're dealing with is the desire to buy, resort real estate, and to actually build it. Urban Renewal Authority is one tool. It's one of the, it can be both a carrot-inistic. We discussed this last September and Paul came up and visited it with us then and we wanted to invite him back. Again, to go through the process. He's been briefed in John, Marianne, and I had the opportunity to meet with him on another conference in Denver a couple of weeks ago and gave him an overview of our current situation. Invest him to kind of go a little bit deeper in areas that potentially may have been of concern to you or that should be highlighted to you also in the memo. We tried to highlight some of the political and economic considerations to using a tool like this. So with that, I could ask Paul to again give you a little summary of urban renewal authorities and how they work and pitfalls and opportunities. Thank you very much. It's nice to see all of you again. I was here in September and we had a nice discussion. And I'm back again and please anytime you have a question, just feel free to interrupt. And I think by asking questions, we might get through this without me having to go through every line item here in this memo. Just to start out with a little bit of background, urmary null authorities are like housing authorities in the state of the familiar with housing authorities. The way the statutes worded, yet the state legislature is actually created in each of the municipalities in the state, an urban renewal authority that a town council or city council puts into effect by the process in the statute. So the power and the authorization for an urban renewal authority operate comes from the state legislature. It operates. It's a statutory corporation that operates in accordance with the statute. And so, and that's important for a number of reasons. First of all, it's a corporate body. It's separate from the town. It's not a division of the town or a board that is a subsidy area of the town or board that is a subsidiary of the town. It's not an alter ego of the town. So that's important because it's debts then belong only to the Urban Renewal Authority. And the town is not responsible even if the town board acts or the town council would act as the urban renewal board, when you take off your council hat and put on your urban renewal board hat, you are in a different capacity altogether. So just to keep that in mind, when we're talking about this, the process to form the authorities pretty simple, it's a petition process for 25 electors. To sign a petition, they bring it to file it with the town clerk and then you have to set a public hearing. And you have a public hearing and the statutory steps are there. Are there if there's enough of a reason for you to enable the authority to operate. You make these findings that are, you have this little memo that I had prepared before. Those findings, indeed, that you have blighted areas in your community. We don't in Colorado have, I don't think anybody really has had a slum area in any of the findings that I've worked on in all the many years. It's usually, it's blight. And the blight, there are a number of blight factors in the statute. And you have to have some legislative record in front of you about those items when you make that finding just as you would when you're acting on other legislative matters. And then you have a public hearing if you form the authority, then you have to decide who's going to be the board. And I think the first important decision you make after the formation process would be to decide whether the town board would want to sit as the board of the authority or whether you'd want to appoint a separate board. And for a long time, the statute just allowed for the separate board. But then there was some thought that these separate independent boards sometimes get crossways with town councils and or city councils. And so the legislature put in the provision that the town council can actually be the board. So, but if you when you decide, if you appoint the separate board, you can't just go and say King's Acts will go back and appoint the town council as the board. Now we want to change it. You have to go through a boat if you want to change it. So I'm just cushing you right now. On the other hand, if you point yourselves as the board, it's easier than there's no such provision. If you decide you want to change, you can actually change in a point, a separate board. You have five, a minimum of five, a maximum of 11 that would serve staggered terms. I won't spend too much time on that. But the board is known as a Board of Commissioners of the authority and the mayor appoints the separate board and the council would then confirm that these bodies exist. And then there's the only formal thing you have to do is notify Dola that you formed the Air Marine Noll Authority and send in your certificate with your names of your board members on it and you're in business as a separate Irmeneau Authority. That's a department of authority. How many of these have you done? No, I don't do all of them. You don't get me wrong, but I've worked on quite a few. I've been working on this since the 60s. They're like 60s. You involved in the Estus Park? I recently became involved in the Estus Park. Estus Park, my good friend Jim Winholtz, represented them for many years. And then he died suddenly about two and a half years ago and I took over as the attorney. I just had some detailed questions around the comments you made so far. Okay. Okay. When we talk about the 25 people to sign the petition, the people that have a convote here. Our town employees. Just have to be electors. Yes, electors. Okay. Number two, over on 62, we talk about the cost of 50 to 80,000 to create the authority. Is that from the point of the petition process to getting a plan created and within that plan, you have to have, if we're going to do imminent domain, if I read this right, five of these elements. Yes. And as you looked at those conditions, and you're familiar with our time in our town. Would you say we have five that will qualify? That sort of depends on your boundaries. You know, I mean the thing about this statute, it sort of pulls you in a lot of different directions at once. There's one of the findings you have to make when you prove the plan is that you've made the boundaries as narrow as possible to achieve the goals. And on the other hand, if you have to find usually four blight factors for a plan and if you want to have them in a domain, you have to have five. And they should be scattered throughout the area. That's normally what I would recommend, you know, just to have a defensible plan. Although I have to say, I've never, there's only been one plan in this state in all the years that has been held to be invalid and that was in Winter Park and they didn't approve it properly. It wouldn't have nothing to do with the findings because it's up to the town board. That's why you have to have a record in front of you. And then you as the legislators look at the evidence that's presented, there's usually a condition survey that would detail the elements of light in all of these factors. Slum deteriorated or deteriorating structures, predominance of defective, or inadequate street layout, for instance, and sanitary unsafe conditions. You can find these, usually a lack of infrastructure, proper infrastructure. We've had situations where you have just a bad title situation on a piece of property that turns it into a white elephant and it just sits there for years. So yes, you do have to find five and I think that if they're properly documented, that's the decision that you would make. If you say we were hypothetically, we drew the boundary for this around the area, including the mall, the base village and the center. You have to find five in all of those areas separately or just- No, just the entire area you that's the you you you know you have your survey ideally you I don't know we've had for the most part over the years traditionally it used to be the planning department of the municipality did a lot of the work and then this time went on it got a little more formal and so now the custom is the other way it It's that you hire a consultant, someone comes in and documents and you get a report with survey findings, details, maps showing you where the I always ask the consultants if they do this to give you at least maps and show you the distribution for where the items are. And so if those conditions are there, they can be documented, then you check any information that town might have from previous studies, traffic studies, code enforcement information, that sort of thing. So I want to take that, read the question a step further. And I want to use the Snowmass Center, which is probably one of the oldest properties in town. And if I wanted to use deterioration of site or other improvements or the deterioration of site or other improvements or the deteriorate of that surface, the structures. Question for you, compared to what? How is that finding? How is that type of a finding document? Well, it's usually has to do with not up to code. Perhaps, you know, or current code. Maybe somebody's been grandfathered in. That would be the town's code. The town's code or some buildings are just obsolete after a number of years on some items. Usually it's a physical thing. I mean, it's a physical, something that you can, somebody can observe and present to you. And of course, as I always tell the municipality, I mean, feel free to question it because it's your decision. You have to make the decision, you have to feel comfortable when you make it. We decide which ones if well we decide if this building if we Interpreter this building is this glass is unsafe and we've got Anything to support it it's unsafe you know you may just go blow up right It's interpretation I guess also typically again against with my limited experience the one time I went through it You did engage a third party they compared buildings against building code and they gave you a list of issues that could potentially comply with the criteria but it's still up to the decision-makers to make those findings. Out of 11 possibilities I'm sure that there's not one building in this community, one area in this community that don't have a supportable basis for five, because that doesn't mean you're gonna condemn everything. Right. No, no. It's. Justifies inclusion in the plan. Okay. Okay, yeah, now, you know, that, Okay. Okay. Yeah. Now, you know, that I think that's the issue of blight as always. I think the most difficult one for everyone to deal with. I mean, no one. And, you know, I was just at the public hearing the other day when people were, you know, people in the audience, citizens were complaining about blight. And yet, you know, there was a study that documented that there was a supportable finding that a city council could make. And once you make that, it's not going to be overturned unless you use fraud or bad faith. And that's always been the standard because that's the standard for legislative findings. And sometimes it gets mixed in with quasi-judicial standards. The statutes filed up a little bit, but that's something for lawyers to worry about. But it either has to be fraud or bad faith, and that the very worst thing is that it was your arbitrary or capricious in doing that. And the courts just don't invade that function of what the municipalities designed to do because of separation of powers. So it is troublesome, but if you make that finding, then there's plenty of support in the statute and in case law for your determination. Okay, that's the least of our problem. Let's, once speaking of... But it's important, it's a whole legal basis for the statute. Talk about the tax incremental financing. Okay. That's the big thing in my mind. Okay. Reading. All right. Now, you know, this is a difficult subject. You're speaking of Estus Park. I was up there trying to go through this with a group of people because I had a recent vote as you probably heard about that. You know, I had a lot of legal issues tied to it, but I tried to explain tax increment financing in a few words to people who wanted to have something simple that they could go out in the community and talk about. Well, when you approve a plan, if we write in the right statutory language about property tax increments and or to the extent that you would make a commitment if any of municipal sales tax increments, the way that property tax increments work is this. When you approve an area, let's just say, you know, like this is the area. And you have then the surrounding community. Well, the assessor gets the total assess value for this area. That's just say it's a million dollars. And as last certified, and it's either, if you prove the plan after August, I think it's 28, then it's August 28. If you prove it after December, then I think it's December 10th because you certify the tax role to the taxing bodies and then you have a final certification. It goes back to that time and whatever that is, it was a million dollars on, say, August 28th and that's the date. Then that's the base value. And then as time goes on, did you have that, do you have a tiff chart in your, you have that chart in there? 861? Yeah, which one do you have? There's some one in your memo. Yeah, which one do you have? There's some one in your memo. Okay, I had one that was attached to my memo and I think Russ has one in there. The one thing you have to understand is that base value then when the taxing body is levy, the amount that's certified to them is the million dollar base value. And they set their tax lovies based on that value. And if there's a difference between, yeah, the base and the increment there, that green line there is the total assessed value. The taxing bodies are, they levy against the assessed value of the base. And they get that money, anything in between those two lines, any money produced by the levy of those taxing bodies on the assessment role represented by that difference. It goes to the Urban Renewal Authority that paid the project cost. So- What could that be for, Paul? Pardon? You could, you use that for eligible items to help alleviate these conditions of blight. You can use it for infrastructure. You can use it street sewers. You can use it to buy property. You can use it to work with businesses, residents in the area to rehabilitate their property if you have enough money. The problem is that you are dependent then on the private market to come in and create some new assess value so that you have some money to use. This is sort of bootstrap financing, but you'll notice there that there's a stair step. Every every other year there's a general reassessment and in most years, you know the property tax or property values rise in this economy, maybe they don't. But there's a general reassessment, and so the ratio between the base and the increment, if there's a 10% base is 90% of total value and your increment is 10 percent, then they split the increase in general overall inflation at the same ratio. In other words, the base would get 90 percent of the increase and the TIF value there, the TIF assessment roll gets the other 10 percent. But if it's new construction, if it's for changes, all of that goes into the increment. But the taxing bodies do make money over time. I mean, one of the things that you hear is that the base is frozen for 25 years and that's not true. I've even had county treasurers testify that way to the state legislate. You know, I mean, it's just, it's a, it's a misapprehension of the facts. So just so you'll know, I did some work for the DDA down in Glenwood Springs a few years ago and we had a dispute with the Colorado Mountain College folks and the county. And the county had the assessor figure out what the assessed value, how much it would rise, how much the base would rise and how much the increment would rise based on just normal assumption. This was the assessor that did this. The base, I think it started out like 26 million for the base and at the end of 25 years, it was almost 100 million. And the increment went from 0 to I think 29 million. So you can see that most of the value in a built up area like you would have here, I mean there's you don't have quite as much tiff value to work with as you would if you had somewhat less developed areas. So you can to a certain extent predict these things, you used to be able to anyway in the bond market and be able to sell bonds ahead of time right now. It's a little bit tough because nobody's building anything but if you if you have a some redevelopment going on in the area and you're going to have new construction that produces tax wealth on bond underwriters can sit down and calculate that and as long as you have a certain coverage on your bond, and that end is going forward, you can issue bonds. So this is based upon the urban renewal bond. Yes. So it just depends on what the math works out. When you make the boundary large, because you can have a greater tip or smaller because the light is better and your base is going to be smaller and when you get through your increment it's going to be really great. Yeah so that's some practical things about that is that the taxing bodies want you to keep it small mostly because they think that's going to benefit them and sometimes if you have controversy people when you adopt one of these plans and the people here are very null and they I mean they I don't care how many times you reassuring me if you're never going to use them in a domain that's still think you are and if you are going to use them in a domain you have to be very careful then too I think make sure you don't scare the daylights out of everybody if you if possible you dropped your plan in a way that you if you know what properties you're going to acquire that you should mark those properties in a way so that they have an opportunity to the owners have an opportunity to come in with their proposals to rehabilitate that property or redevelop it themselves. And then if they don't, then I think then you know, then you can go forward. But that way then you don't scare the daylights out of everybody else in the area. And we clearly, if we were to involve ourselves in to TIF financing which is very healthy financing for the product for the renewal. You know that we're going to get the school district and Colorado Mount College and the water district and everybody who's special district is going to be involved coming in and complaining but you're thinking on our money away. Of course they're not putting any money in the project. And you know there is, and there's a little more of a trend these days to maybe do some. I wouldn't call it revenue sharing, you have to be careful because you can only spend the money for what the statute authorizes. It's good, you're earning all the that's it's you have to be careful and The counties traditionally have been the biggest complainers and they have we have this provision in here And I'm not I'm not denigrating the counties. I mean I say this they they they have the most powerful constituency in the legislature and they have this business in here about the impact report that you have to provide to the counties and tell them how this project is going to impact their services or infrastructure. And I've always said, well, how do we know? I mean, theoretically, if you are living against the base, you haven't created any of the new wealth. So that's all you could ever expect. And that's been sort of the whole legal basis for tax increment financing. There's a, we have our Colorado case on that. And with the Supreme Court said, the taxing bodies don't lose anything because they have the base and they have the General Reassessment every other year so they would get what they would normally Would you would normally expect them to get because none of the development is deemed by the statute to have taken place but for The redevelopment of the urban renewal area, but I say nevertheless There's been a trend to try to work with the taxing bodies a little more. And so some of the smaller ones, like a fire district, for instance, they can usually come in and maybe show an impact. If they can show an impact, then there's usually a basis for entering into an agreement with them. But you have to be careful because you have to have some money to do some of the things you may, other things you may want to do. So, school districts lately wanted to tiff big problems with that I've heard that criticisms of tiff is because you know now we're having such funding problems with our state that there's worry that the backfill that the state has provided. Normally the, I've had school districts just tell me almost every time, every school district there's exceptions over the years until just recently, that there's really no discernible impact because the state sets up this funding formula on the per pupil basis. And until recent years, the school districts have been limited in how much they can levy because the state they're trying to keep the expenditures per pupil even throughout the state. Well, lately the state hasn't had any money. So part of the controversy that you're hearing now and what came up in Estes Park was even though the school district When this plan was approved a new plan Their first 25 years ran out they did a new plan through to or that they were they they they Their first urban renewal plan the 25 years ran and then they had a Big-long community discussion and approved a new memory and will plan going forward. And then, and at that time, the school district said we're not impacted, but it's part of the debate over whether to abolish that authority, the school, this change your mind. They're saying, you know, don't take our money. Well, okay, then there's not going to be any tiff. So they're going to be any money. It's not going to be a pot of money theoretically for anybody to share anymore. So what, you know, what happened there is they had a vote and legally the vote was just an advisory vote. It's up the way you abolish an authority is this town council has to make a decision and there's a statutory procedure for doing it and there is no vote that's authorized. So that's how they are in the process of winding down and abolishing that authority. But they have some obligations they have to take care of, which I think there's, there may be no authority has some money that can help do that. So you have to understand once you start the authority, and if it has some bonds outstanding and you want to abolish it, you just you can't you know you have to you'll have to take on the debt yourselves or figure out a way to pay those bonds off. So but you're not you don't have to pay them unless you do something like that. I want to tell you I mean you know the town board the town is not on the hook for the deaths of the urban renewal authority. Now we've had, we have had some serious discussions with bondholders and bond underwriters over the years about that. Not too many. We've only had, we've had in all the years, since we had TIFF, I know of three projects that got into trouble, all with the same bond underwriter, and all because of an over-issuements problem. One of them came out of it okay, the refinance or way out of it. One of them did not, but the bondholders will get all their money back plus a much reduced interest component. And in the other one, there was only one bondholder and they worked out a deal with that one. But you know, in these hard times that we're having now, I mean, you know, project financing is more of a problem. When you begin the process, even assuming you create the urban renewal boundaries, you create the board, etc. You don't have to make this decision on tith financing or any other kind of financing until you get the thing going? No, it's a two-step process. You form the authority and its area of operation is the municipal limits, but you know, it's not doing anything. You have to have a plan. But these things can occur, you know, in relatively short order. You can create the authority and shortly thereafter have your planning place because you probably want to do a little study to make sure that when you get this petition that you do have some blighted areas in your city. So frequently what's done is you condition a study and then you use it for both purposes if you desire. But just because you create the authority doesn't mean you automatically approve a plan and it does not and it doesn't Have anything to do with what's in that plan and what's in that plan is up to this board That's your decision even if you create a separate urban renewal authority That municipal board determines what's in the plan when it's if what are in any amendments So you have pretty good control over the entire process. Just a couple of things about whether the pros and cons of a separate board versus the council acting as a board, some of the things I've observed over the years. Sometimes if you have a fairly large municipality and they're busy all the time and they have a lot of late meetings They don't want to be the ordinary no authority. They want to have a separate board because of the time it takes and They also maybe would like to get some Business people different kind different representatives on that board to to run the authority The the cons of that that that come up is that sometimes over time, the board and the council, they, they, they, and I mean, sometimes some city councils forget that they approve this plan. And when you get three or four years down the road now, the, you know, the, the, the, the ordinary, no board is trying to carry it out and then they have, they're having some dispute and sometimes, you know, their legitimate differences of opinion. Uh, I have found that, uh, if the, uh, for instance, if the town council wanted to be, uh, the Ermering Nual Board, they usually then, uh, you know, it's a little bit easier, uh, to figure to figure out what to do. And the political responsibility there is there. And if just what happened in Estus Park, if there seems to be a change in sentiment of the community, and they reverse direction, and that's the all-American way of doing things. So I do think there's some benefit to having the town council serve as a board. You can also, can you not, the council can serve as the board plus, you could have a larger board. No, no, you see the one way or the other, you have to have the town council, or you have a separate board of five to 11 with one Municipal official on there so it limits that so you can either have you can either have and then That's a way to it. I mean it's it's a strange statue Yeah, I have it back all the way up. Okay You're talking about this chart On valuation and we had the base at a million. Let's propose that we set up this darn thing and the base value was a million. Let's say we continue with recessionary times, God forbid. And for the next five years, we're going south versus north on this chart. So why even, we're in the hole, aren't we? Well, you don't, you don't wouldn't have any data. We can't do a damn thing. Well, you, no, you, I mean, that's your finance, you wouldn't have any financing unless. You're financing, so. Well, unless, unless, I mean, you can get, you can borrow money, the town could lend money to the authority. You could perhaps, I don't know, dude, we've had municipalities figure out ways to lend money to authority to get it started. It's going to take a while to get an increment anyway, even if you're talking about a decrement. And you have to make that up, you're right. But the taxing bodies get all the money until you get past the base. But I don't tell it, you're really selling by what you're doing is you get, for one of a better word, you're creating Blue Sky which you then pedal to a bonding company. Yeah. They give you the money. Yeah, I understand that. Or you can create an up-blue sky. That's it. You have to have been any examples of sort of a public private partnership where you do the bonding like a normal Taxing authority does but then also perhaps sells shares like more like a stock situation No, it doesn't work that way, but you know public private partnerships Are the linchpin of this whole thing. I mean that's usually are the linchpin of this whole thing. I mean, that's usually, you are required here to have the redevelopment of the area be carried out by private enterprise. And if you, usually what, in lieu of issuing bond, you can enter into agreements with owners and developers to reimburse them for the same kind of things you would pay for, use the bond funds for. Or make it even a little more complicated. You have a metro district that is formed. And the metro district issues the bonds for infrastructure, say, and then the ordinary null authority contributes to the tip. So you kind of leverage your different ways of financing. And what the, if the private developer wants to do his project, and he can borrow enough money to cover a lot of infrastructure costs, what you would do then is analyze his performance. He comes to you and asks for some money to pay for things that he might have to pay for in a different situation. But because of some situation like you can't assemble the property properly without overspending for it or he has some, there's some terrible topographical problems that you have to ask, and it property sits there for years because you can't develop. That's, you pay for eligible public items that have a public purpose generally to make up the difference so that they can, allows the project to go forward, which you usually do speed up the market. What happens? I'm really not clear now on the developer as well as the seller. What happens if we don't have a willing seller that wants to participate? And if you don't have, that's the first part of the question. Second part is if you don't have a private developer who is interested. Well, let's do the first. Okay. What is their options? Would they do they have all kinds of legal rights to challenge you? Well, what are you going to do with the, are you talking about eminent domain? Yes. Okay. Well, if you're going to do eminent domain, you have a whole series of steps that you have to go through. And those are not in this outline because that's a little bit of a separate discussion. And what you have to do is you can combine, there's a series of steps in the statute that the legislature has put in place to make sure you're not, her marine authorities aren't abusing their powers of eminent domain. So there's another, there's a special requirement that actually part of the public hearing for approving a plan, you have to notify all of the property owners, residents and owners of businesses in the area by publication and by mail. And if you're going to have M and a domain, there's a separate provision in the statute that says you have to notify the owners of the property that maybe you're going to acquire. So you can combine those and have one public hearing. But if you're going to then acquire the property, then you have to go through these steps in the statute. First of all, you have to give, if you're going to condemn somebody's property, you can't be negotiating ahead of time. You can't have, before you start negotiations with the third party developer that you may want to, you used to be able to buy these properties, you know, you have developer that you may want to, you used to be able to buy these properties the property themselves and they can come in and present a plan. So it's complicated in that way and then you have a bunch of findings. You have to specifically make a finding as either the Urban Renewal Board or the town council that the principal purpose is to eradicate white and not for economic development. You can't condemn property for economic development. They've amended the Emanut domain procedure act to the legislature has to make sure of that. So you just have a series of steps and a series of findings you have to make, but you do have to be careful if you're thinking about doing them in a domain to give it serious consideration I think from the beginning. If you don't, if you prove the plan without a near most plans are approved without them in a domain these days because people are finding it, you know, it's difficult to do. But it's still there and you can do it, but're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it And it gets expensive, but it's up to you. And Paul, again, through imminent demand, you do have to pay fair market value. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, well, yeah. I mean, there's no doubt about it. I mean, you just can't go take somebody's property. Actually, my experience is if eminent domain is used, you overpay for the property by some margin. But it also used to be a way of controlling cost in a way because then you have all these holdout parcels. And there is, you still have a provision in the statute that allows you to condemn a holdout parcel. You have to make a finding that you can't complete the redevelopment without that holdout parcel. But you have to, and if you're displacing people, if you're not displacing somebody, then it's easier. But if you're displacing somebody, you have to adopt the federal relocation standards. And that's expensive. If you develop the plan with the possibility of M and domain, you're not required to use M and domain. No. No, no. What I would recommend, and this is what we've usually done in the past when we do this, we say, if you know which properties you probably think you want, I mean, and sometimes it's hard to tell. I mean, you may find you're going to go back and amend it later. But if you know there are some parcels that you really do, either want to see redeveloped or you want, by the owners or you want to perhaps have the ability to go in and buy it, then you would write in your plan the owners of these parcels if they will have an opportunity and you just put the statutory requirements in your plan and then say, please come in and tell us, if you're going to be able to redevelop your property. And then if not, then you can make a determination at that time, whether you can buy it or not. I mean, in order to buy it, you have to have money. So, you know, you know, I mean, that's certainly going to enter into it. If you can't, you have to make, you have to have it appraised, you have to then make a determination of fair market value, you have to make an offer. I don't know if you've been through Emma domain before when the connection with some right-of-wack position or something, but there's a process that is very formal and it does protect people's property rights. And if you're not forcing widows and orphans out of their homes, you know, it's a little bit easier and you're not on television every night. You know, I mean, it gets to be a political problem for boards such as yourself to follow through on something like that because you do get pressure. In our case, I suspect the widows and orphans would send us congratulations. I have a question relative to the widows and the orphans. This would be if we were to put into the plan, the snowmass center, which is, as you know, commercial. Here? Yes. Okay. And now we have businesses in there. Would we be required to find other places for businesses or does it only apply? Well, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. Yeah, or does it only apply for residential? No, it applies, though, it's businesses too. And you have to make, you'd have to set up a relocation plan and a program to help them find, you're supposed to either end in the boundaries or as near to the boundaries as possible and relocate them, and then you'd have to pay their actual reasonable moving expenses. So that's why I'm saying it gets really expensive for an ordinary null authority to condemn a piece of property. It isn't impossible. I recently worked on a plan in Colorado Springs where, and I represented the developer there, although I've done some work for the authority there too in the past where on North Nevada where they have now they have a new Costco and a Lowe's and in that developer went in and bought all these properties and you know paid enough to There were several paid enough so that they were sat they they could take care of their moving expenses too and you know overplayed over Patre immensely for the land but what the City Council and the Irmory Nool Authority told him is if we'd rather pay you out of the tiff and overpay for these properties than to use them in a domain. So that turned out to be quite a complicated process but that's where the public-private partnership sometimes comes in. There's another recent project on Sheridan, in Sheridan, where there was some kind of nation, but the developer assembled all the property himself. As far as having to move the business, is that only in the event that they have a lease or if they don't have a lease or they kind of? No, it's your own rock. I mean they're there if they're there legally and even if they're there illegally sometimes they have some. Well, they can't just they have to be there prior to the time the projects have proved. But they can't have people who does that. I mean, you still have to deal with that. Well, if they're still on a month-a-month, I mean, you say that, I mean, we've had, you know, it gets a little bit tricky, but usually if you have any right to occupy the property, you have to pay. The determinations are made mostly in favor of the person who's being displaced. Did you make any assumption that you're going to displace somebody? You don't have to. You know, if you just let's just mind thinking for a minute. You're going to condemn building seven. You're not displacing anybody. Right. The fact that it happens to be also in base village doesn't matter. Or you can then, let's say you can them the entire West Village. I take a stupid example. But the only thing you're going to work on is building eight. Not replacing anybody. Well, you don't want to. Ben's on what you do. You wouldn't do that. You wouldn't acquire the property unless you were going to? There's a lot more to this. I have another question. I have several more. In terms of a statement you have in here, the URA as you citizens can be concerned about combination, particularly with the value of their property, their own property in the community. Can you give us any comments on what you've seen in terms of initial time that you do a URA and then maybe five years or 10 years, what has been, what's happened to individual property values? You know, it varies, it depends on the private market. I mean, it's just like anything else. You have, we had a project I worked on in our Vata. You know, almost, there are 25 years of running out. There were parts of the area that redeveloped and that property was assembled. And they really, you know, they did well. And then in one little area of the, that nobody did any work on for a long time, the property values, you know, I mean, the adoption of the plan and some people worry that blight designation is gonna make their property values go down. Right. That, that isn't the case. How about an escape resort, though? Oh, I don't know. I don't think so. I mean, they did didn't fail. I don't think there's a perception versus the reality. What? The exception and the concern from some was that saying that word blight was very significant and it would impact their values now. And that scenario, there was a strong partnership with the underlying property owner, and there was really immediate redevelopment, so actual fact property values escalated significantly. But it was because of that redevelopment. One of the objections that you hear, I mean, they take the opponents do the other thing. They say, with property values aren't going down, so how can the area be blighted? Well it can't be. I mean because the assessor is the, the ordinary null authority or the town doesn't have anything to say about what the assess value of the property is. You know, you have to be worried about is that the assessor is doing things properly and that he's making that the calculation of the base and the increment correctly every year. So, blight itself doesn't seem to, I echo what Russ said. It's a perception sometimes and I've had no one lady who cried at the public hearing because the property that was going to be a declaration of blight. Well, the plan was to fix the street in front of her property. But the council didn't, I mean, they just, and so a few weeks later then she wanted to work down. Thank you for working in mountain towns. What has been the communication strategy to offset the potential impact for tourists coming in or perception out in the marketplace? I don't think most tourists would know about it would they? I mean it's... The things on who wants to tell the story out there. Until it's a day tomorrow they forget it. It isn't. I don't, you know I don't, I mean I don't see a problem, you know I'm a attorney so I'm not an economist or a... But I haven't seen any problem like that. But the way you know is a practical matter what I don't use this term but a lot of times the town councils and the city council see this as it's a way to do some financing to do some improvements that are needed in your town. As this park, when they did theirs, they had the giant flood. So they had a real need to do something. But they used all their tiff on, I think they had one eminent domain case for redevelopment in all the years. They did that, but they built River walk and they built a conference center and they all kinds of community improvements other places you know we have each project is a little different so in a mountain town There haven't been too many and there yet, you know, they're used There haven't been too many and they're you know they're used Sort of prudently, but it depends on The private market no matter what what you do As far as I'm concerned. I mean if you if you if you don't have a market you're never going to have any tip I mean, but if you can help the market along by Usually what happens when you want to do an urban or you have some kind of white elephants that's staring you in the face, I mean, that's, no, no, I'm just saying this. I've had, you know, in towns where, in towns where, you know, they're just thinking about doing this unless they have some kind of somewhat of a crisis or something that's happened or an opportunity comes along that they see that could benefit the town or the city. It usually doesn't get the kind of support from the community or from the public officials. But if there's a problem, then this is one way to deal with it. Mark, from my experience, I remember getting called from a national NPR, wondering how could a ski community declare blight? And yeah, we had to go through the legal process and describe to them, it didn't mean slum. But the message right beside it was, here are all the public improvements and private improvements that are going to occur because of this. So that messaging in terms of what was next was very important in that communication process. Sometimes it's just impossible without some kind of, I mean if the private market is going to take care of it in a reasonable near future then you might don't do it. It's my ride, but if you have an ongoing problem but you know an empty building down in Golden that they had, you know, over 25 years. Right, and on the 100% corner of town, just because of problems with the owner, finally ended up, you know, doing a long negotiation and coming to an agreement with them. And it was because of the urban renewal project. Mr. Mayor. It shortens negotiation. Rest. What do you have a carrot and stick? I think it's also important and this is constantly evolving at the State House and I just spoke with Paul today about where his State legislature and his he concerned this tool would go away and thought he might kind of express those thoughts to you as well. This year, every year, I have to say every year and recently, TIFF has been under attack at the state legislature because of the perception that you are taking away money from the taxing bodies that they would normally get. I think they mostly get it, but they want more leverage to get more of the money, and the harder times are for everybody. They, I mean, it's a real concern. So this year, one bill has been introduced that has to do with agricultural land, a blighted agricultural land for urban renewal and TIFF. And that bill is probably going to pass, and it will restrict the tool. And this probably wouldn't concern your community very much, but it doesn't in places like Pueblo and Brighton, where they have brought vestiges to town. And they don't have a site within the town that will accommodate that kind of a use and they can't assemble one so They go you know to the edge of the city of Pueblo it's down just south of the steel mills So they're probably won't be able to do that anymore Under those restrictions or it'd be much more difficult. Then there's another bill that may or may not get introduced this time and this would affect you and this would have to do with a much more complicated process of an expensive process of doing studies and working with each taxing body. And in essence, you would be under a lot of pressure to give back a significant portion of the tiff. And to the extent that maybe you couldn't do something that was really expensive. And there's going to be a new, I'll always have a lot of pressure. And I had an urge you to think about this from the taxing bodies to put in some, at least some municipal sales tax into the tiff. It's discretionary. The way the statute works, all of the property tax tiff goes to the ordinary null authority. You can give some back. to the ordinary null authority. You can give some back, but if you can choose to give some none or all of the municipal sales tax tiff and that's calculated based on the 12 months, total of the 12 months collections prior to approval of the plan, that's your base and then anything above that. And there are periodic readjustments for inflation too. And that's true. Very careful with that. Within our financial impact assessments, we assumed as development occurred, there would be more services and that sales tax would flow back to pay for officers. You know, frequently the city manager, town manager doesn't even give me a chance to finish my sentence. Right. Don't do that. He warned me ahead of time. But I mean, there's a, you know, you can enter into an agreement between the authority and the town too, and you should, I think. You know, especially if you have to advance some money to do this. Also, key point in this, and after going through it once once I certainly learned that it's a significant discussion and dialogue just educating our other partners and you got to educate the county assessor to get on board with this even though they're obligated to but it takes time to just educate both the community and other taxing entities. You know what it pays to meet with both the community and other taxing entities. You know what it pays to meet with all the taxing bodies, I think. So I guess the question now is does this somebody want to engage somebody to help us with? I have two other questions. Okay. Please. What's the timeline? If we were to do this thing, how long could you come out of the gate with it, the norm? It isn't how long. It's how short. I mean, you know, because you can- Tomorrow? No, well, no, no. It takes- Well, I would say realistically probably sometime in the summer. This summer you could have both the authority formed in a plan in place and I will give you some time. You have certain notice requirements in the statute but you can tell us you can make it you know shortest I'm working on one that's on a pretty short fuse now because of this intending statutory change And that is with the cooperation of the adjoining county that is also going to be, there's a provision in the statute that you can, if you're on the edge of the municipality, you can add a little piece from the county if the county commissioners agree, and we're doing that. And this is taking two months, but we don't have to form the authority. It's, I mean, you know, that's about as fast as you can do it. And the second question is what's the potential cost more than 80,000? No, I don't think so. I mean, I don't, you know, I know. I put that up at the high end. We stated as a range of 50, 80, and it's coming. He actually had it higher. I talked him into making it a little more because I don't think it costs that much personally, but I don't know. I don't do the town budgeting. I was factoring in my own experience dealing with a friendly condemnation action. Now that's different. This is a very important point that there's the two steps that Paul just articulated that gives you the authority and the plan. That's all I'm talking about. And that's all we're talking about right now. If there's an interest in terms of assembling land and putting it together, that's when you got to take a real hard look, are there other development partners? Is the development current owner amenable to this? And then there's very significant resources that come to play both in the process and obviously paint their market value. But you've got to start someplace. You start and as you go along, you develop, you get information and you make decisions based upon the information that you have. If you don't start, it ain't never going to happen. Mr. Dresser, I think there's one other point when you talk about that, you can stop any time as well. Right, good point. I presuppose that. I hope we all understand that. You don't have to go through this thing. You blow whatever money you spend on it, but that's about it. So where's our next step? Well, I think it's, you know, if you're interested in moving forward, it's really then, you know, there's a two-step process. You can take it sequ really then, you know, there's a two step process. You can take it sequentially, create the authority, create the plan. Paul's also described the scenario where you do a number of things concurrent. So you're biting off, you're going faster, and I think probably the time frame of the summer, you know, presumes you're doing a number of things concurrently. We're looking at a conditions survey. We're engaging the right people to do that. The hall is helping us through the process. There might be some financial work also needed to do an impact study for the county. So it's a matter of, do you want to pull the trigger? And again, anytime you do anything, being very clear what the goal is and what the outcome is you want to achieve? By doing it. It's really important with this process because you'll get some tough questions that will need to be answered along the way and Turns that you want to not want to have big of a geographic area. Do you want or how small? So being very clear about what you want as an outcome is very important in terms of starting the process. Right? I think we should engage a company or someone. I don't know which is the most appropriate, but someone, some entity that is familiar with this process and we should begin it. Get that entity to assist us in determining some of these things. How big should the area be? What are the pros and cons of that? What are the examples? If you do this, this is what it is. If you do this, this is what it is. And then we make the decisions. As we all know, I know that's a budget problem, but the fact is, everything we do is a budget problem. We can either sit here and wall in our own mud and go nowhere and say, well, you know, we just have this problem, and we'll have to eat it and we'll have to stay here and we'll have to do it and It never gets better or we give it a play Knowing that we have to spend some money Yeah, again, again, I think if council said today we're interested in taking that next step I think what we would do is again, you know working with Paul, you know Assemble what would be a reasonable scope to get the job done along with the cost just like we do with any project. I'm against doing this for many reasons none of it by designation of blight or whatever. We're actually taking upon the work that a landowner and developer should be doing on their own. And yeah, we're not having a willing land owner and a developer at this point going forward, but I would like to think that that is going to happen. The cost of doing this and the cost of the community and the exposure we put, this taxing authority in our jurisdiction, just to me, is not acceptable. One thing, this authority has no taxing power. It's just, it's a, it gets allocated money. I understand. I just want to make sure, I mean, that's, I'm not raising everybody's taxes by doing this. Yeah. I just don't see our town in the position right now of expanding any kind of limited resources we have on a problem that may or may not solve itself over a period of time. I'm just concerned about the exposure for our community to doing something in this manner. I'm in the solar campus, John. I think if I lived in a different area, maybe downtown Detroit, you know, it might make sense to look at some of this little differently. But in today's economy, and with this saber rattling, I think, you know, we're trying to do. This is not the appropriate step in my opinion that we need to take. We need to look at all our options with our friends, partners, community. But I just don't see that anybody's buying or selling anything right now. I think that we are in a state of economic turmoil that I don't wanna take this next step of starting this process. I'm kind of split because I think it's going to be very expensive. On the other hand, we need to move forward. We can't, like we're going to see more and more businesses in our town clothes and we're going to have another whole mess on our hands. If we can't get to some point and I'm talking almost more of the center in the mall where people are going month to month and they can't live like that. And I just, I feel like there's got to be something that's going to snap to get things, we got to try something. Okay. Marty? Oh, Christ. He'd be helpful if it's for you. We can take a pause too. All right. There's part of me that is very interested in outlining the steps. We've kind of outlined them tonight, but I'd almost like for our staff to give us a work plan from here to there, and that would not include outside council at this point unless it was necessary. We need to have the list of questions without come. What are we really trying to achieve here? And how much would all this cost? That's one thing. A second point is it appears to me we don't have a willing seller. And I think that would be a struggle at best and a lot of money. And I don't know that. Number two is I don't know if there's a willing developer out there willing to come in. So we could spend 80,000, 50,000 I don't know the magic number that's more detailed like the staff to really hone in on before I say yeah or nay. I think tonight we need to is my thinking that we need to either say tonight yeah or nay. Well, my point is I'd like to go ahead and start doing it. I'd like to get a work plan. You know, what are the steps? I think that's part of this 50,000. I don't know if I want to spend 50,000. I want the whole steps outlined. I think we can do a scope. Yeah. With a schedule, maybe what I'm maybe a little bit of a decision chart in that. Yeah, that's where I want to go. You know, I could I do it for absolutely zero? I might still... Well, you might. I still would want to ask for a little bit of help Particularly with the timeline of the process But I I don't think that would be a significant cost. I think that may make some sense. Maybe dollars will spent well, I agree and There's two different viewpoints here besides the economy Arnie's recommending that we engage in consulting firm and begin that. And I think if you do that at this point, you're throwing the $50 to $80,000 figure out the window. I don't believe Paul's talking about a complete condition survey, which I think is what you're advocating versus versus an analysis I don't I don't think what she's talking about is the same thing as you're talking about Oh, I don't think so either but there's no reason why you couldn't do a Whatever you want to call it it's a scope it'd be a scope work. Yeah, so it worked first That you know you want to call it. It's a scope. It'd be a scope work. First, everyone ought to know where it is we're going. Exactly. The real economy that exists is one of policy it seems to make. You either rely on the private sector, which is proven unfortunately impotent at the minimum, if not dilatory near the end, intentionally you make it happen. That's a philosophical difference. And I suggest that if the philosophy is you just wait around, I don't care if it's going to cost you $10 or a million or a hundred million dollars, you just go wait around. If the philosophy is that you make it happen, then I think it's really important to know, well, what's it going to take to make it happen? What do I have to do to make it happen? What are the results if I make it happen? And John suggested one of the things he has concern about is creating some kind of an obligation on behalf of the community. The fact is, when you go through one of these things, especially if you do tip financing, you're not putting any money out. You're bringing money in. And although you may have some incremental cost, that you have to lay out today versus getting it back tomorrow. But it's not a net loss, it's a net game. And at any time the developer wants to jump in, they can do that. You're not committing to those things. But I think it's perfectly legitimate, John, to, and perfectly reasonable to know where it is you're going to go. But you first have to get through the philosophical thing, it seems to me, because the philosophy is you don't do it, then you don't do it. I don't care what the heck it's going to cost. You need to have the philosophy that you're willing to go ahead and do something or you're not. That's enough. I'm not willing to say no to going forward with the process. I'd like to see a little bit more detail in scope and then come back for a decision. And then you may not decide. You may decide, okay, I need more information on this or I want to take step one to nine. You're taking a step. You bet. Your real decision is, do you want to, I think the question is today to create a scope, so at least you can look at the cost to create a tool. You may choose not to use that tool. It may not be able to afford to use that tool, but it's a cost to create that tool. I'd like to see it. Yeah, I'd like to see it. I'm sorry, Russ. And some time elements. So how long does that, that would be extremely helpful. I'd like to at least have the flexibility to work with all the little money because you need to be a little bit of time, you know Just picking because the process here is so important in technical and precise But I don't think that's a lot of money Paul No, I Know some of the Support going for something like that. So, okay. So we'll bring you back a scope. It will have a decision flow chart. And again, I, again, we'll probably reinforce, you know, what are your goals and what are your outcomes? And then what's the cost for going through that? Have you, have you run this notion of the flagpole with any of the other taxing districts? Just one. The county who's jumping up and down. No, I would tell you that's that that is one of the most challenging parts of this and lengthy parts of it is having that discussion. That's why there might be very good reasons to include all three of our commercial areas. The smaller and more precise it is, the easier it is to communicate. But that would be one of the decisions. That would be one of the decisions. Okay. So we'll do that. Okay. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you, thank you. Thanks. Excellent. Your decision. Remember that. I'm not, here's an advocate. No. Thanks. Excellent. Your decision. Remember that. I'm not here as an advocate. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. You're an information provider and thank you very much for doing it. Thank you. Thanks. You need a break. You want to take a break? Don't think so, I mean. Okay. Okay. We do. Yeah, go take a break. Okay. Only five. That. Take six. Of course, in your business, you just shoot about... Alright, next. Please. Good follow. Evan will see you Wednesday. Sounds good. Oh, there we are. That's it. That's it. We're going to work for the party to still get up. Can we on it? I think we're recording. That's okay. Oh, Johnny here. I don't know. Probably. That was not a final break. I also wanted to, he stayed at the Polka Lodi. If you guys were at the Dragon Lodi. I wanted to let him know. Good. The dragon would be available, but I think he's pretty hungry. I tried to get him to eat some of Barb's cooking, but Paul, I wanted to let him know that the mountain dragon happens after this, if you guys go up there and that's where you're scheduled, etc. I'm going to take on all these damn breaks because it's staff. Okay, we're ready to go. Looks like everybody's back on the roof. Number six, series 2010, extension of the excise tax move. Second. Motion by Wilkinson, seconded by Mr. Morgan. Any other discussion? How much is in the fund? All those in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Prepare that one. Five zip presses. Managers report. Managers report. I want to start next Monday at five May I add may I Give a piece of information the council I Have been unable to get anybody's Commitment With reference to the switch so please if we can if you do adopt the five o'clock it will be very very helpful. I was just kidding. We told Arnie we would do that and let's go ahead and make that change. I would hope to probably bring no dose for anyone who can't stay away. That'll be the strongest we got though. But that point for me. Yeah, I would imagine at that point when we do that change to five, we probably should schedule, you know, half an hour dinner time that we just take a break because some of these meetings keep under, you know, 10 o'clock. We'll try to keep it to nine, You know, I'm sure. But if there's anyway, let's start at five, I guess. I'd rather just work through dinner. I agree with the working like dinner to work dinner. Absolutely. So continue to we'll be fine. Should we continue to have some food? Yeah. Okay, versus. Yeah. Well, even if we took a break, we'd have to have food. You can't go anywhere. You can't have our need in the back. Again, a lot of communication going on regarding the EOTC. And right now, I'll be mentioning it doesn't appear the county wants to meet in a subcommittee to discuss this issue further. But why does that make that decision when the group wanted to do? Right. This was asked you to make it clear for the public. The county suggested that we have this working group. And now they don't want to meet with us. For next Monday, we have, we'll bring back the EOTC budget, but we are not going to include any reference to the split towards the front door project. So it will come back to you without the section that talked about the split, without a wear-ass statement, or a reference in the budget. We'll simply wipe that out somehow. Okay. Now, the only perp, go ahead, Joe. You're talking about the exhibit. Exhibit. Okay. Now the only perp go ahead. You're talking about the exhibit. Exit. The only purpose behind that is I don't want to put you in a very difficult position of going to the March 18th meeting and saying we want the free bus service but we're not facilitating the payment of the free bus service for this last year. So we're confirming with Tom Oak and Dave May, Peckler may already have an answer, but we believe it'll be okay to approve it with that expenditure, the other expenditures without that reference to continue to have this debate. So you're not conceding any position in writing in the form of a budgetary resolution. Even though some of the emails that we've been seeing have said we already conceded that at a meeting. I think that's the position. Certainly your colleagues will take. Again, didn't agree to that precise language. You agreed to a concept. You didn't necessarily know what the implications are. And one point I just want to give you to think about is when you look at their budget, there's actually adequate funding for the free bus service starting in 2012. There's actually nearly enough money in 2011. It's really, I mean, if we put emotion to the side, there's an opportunity, at least it didn't take the staffs of the three entities too long. But there's an opportunity, not saying the other staffs conceded anything, but to simply talk about a compromise in that funding ratio for this year. And there would be the opportunity to have this debate every year, but there would be adequate resources there to at least get that discussion. So there's an opportunity for a compromise. Again, it's really up to you if you want to reach out to your colleagues informally. You know, I guess it's up to them to say, ear and aid to a cup of coffee. Mr. Wilkinson. No, my recollection of that August meeting, when we did agree to put a lock box on a percent of that funding, it wasn't part of the discussion that it would eventually have the demise of the service, the free fare service between snowmaths and Aspen Aspen and snowmaths. What did Creek and everywhere else? The bonding, I don't know. What you did not have in front of you, John, was this budget. Right, so you didn't have this piece of information in front of you. And actually, I mean, there's good and bad in here with that funding ratio, you do have inadequate resources this year. You'd like a little bit more next year, and then you have adequate resources. But you didn't see how the numbers actually played out based on that discussion. And again, two of you, I think, voted affirmative. One didn't, and the rest, I mean, right there. One question I do have is, I think, given the communication, are you available on March 18th? I'm not, the work. The reason no, can everybody else make it? There's none. I would love to start my spring break early. I'll be there. I think it's important. We have this meeting that you're well represented. That we need to be at that meeting. Well, back to my question on that. It was that Bill raised the issue that we're going back on the decision we made. Well, the decision we made in my mind was not to the demise of the fair service. It was a log box for a percent of the money to pay for the entrance solution And I I don't feel we're going back on anything by reopening this In fact, I was not aware that was an issue until we saw the budget at our meeting What was it to you know two meetings ago? You didn't have again you didn't have that information in front of you. If it was available in the October meeting when... Well, I didn't make it. Yeah. Yeah. It was not available in October. So, I mean, I think we were taken by surprise. We didn't vote in October. I really think we were taken by surprise to this, because we always assumed that yes, there was going to be some negotiations going forward to maintain the service, but in no way was my decision or our vote in August predicated on actually going away in April of this year. Do we happen to have minutes of all these meetings? Yeah, they're mess. Yes, we do. What have you, what did you look at? We may have to review those. Yes, you. You don't have any of this. No, we did not have mess. What have you put you looking at? We may have to review those. You don't have any of this. No, we did not have that. I think you voted on concept. Yeah. And I think even again, with the dollars there, there's still the opportunity to support that concept. But again, the cost sharing would be need to be a little bit different this year and it had different next year. Well what I remember at the October meeting was that we were beginning to see a decline in revenues. Yes. And so therefore one really needs to adjust budgets based around revenue and prior commitments. So just like what we did several times last year you get a new budgetary reality and you make decisions right so anyway again we're for you available from our GT I'm supposed to be in bail but I'll see what I can do I'll try to I just that's I work on it I'm sorry I have an EOTC meeting that day. Just a couple things. In the report I won't go into them on just read when I acknowledge we're doing a few signs set by Mountain View. We are talking. You skipped over. Yeah I need to talk about the marijuana thing. I need to address a couple things that have come out in the paper and I don't generally give too much heed to that but in Mel Blumenthal's article he alluded to why don't we sell marijuana at the concerts and I don't think that's appropriate I don't think that that was ever anything that I intended. There was another article from some I don't remember the name of the gentleman he didn't communicate. I didn't see his name in the phone book. It was in the paper at any rate. I didn't get any personal communication from him. But he was saying I, I know, again eluded my progressiveness and advocating smoking in the lift line. If we're paying any attention to anything that goes on here, you would know that Mr. Wilkinson has already made it illegal to smoke in the lift line. Regardless of what it is. So I just, I don't know. I was just a little annoyed that the lack of education that some of these people have given themselves before lashing out at perhaps a progressive idea. I'm just needed to say that publicly. Thanks. I also needed to allude to something on that. And it's been a hot topic on the municipal lawyers' dialogue with regard to zoning issues, et cetera, et cetera, with the medical marijuana and the status of it in the state. And one of the things that I wanted to make you all aware of is that one of the strongest things that I've seen out there besides complying with the state and coming up with your own reasonable local regulations is federal grants. And in every federal grant you sign, you will comply with all federal, state and local laws. And so even though this law, by this administration, is not going to be enforced, the law is still on the books at the federal level. And their speculation is what if there's a different administration, if you have allowed this clear violation of federal law, what will happen to your federal grants. So I just wanted to let you know that that's something out there that you may want to consider in a long-term context. And it may even be worth it just to wait till November when California passes their tax on marijuana and realizes how much money they're going to make from taxes and the entire House of Cards comes tumbling down. Although I got to I got to tell you I've read that this has been on the black market so long. It's there may not be. Well, good point, but we might enforce a lot more if we're getting taxes than just eradication. But again for everybody. Well, this isn't in the municipal code. We don't right. We're not specific. Right. I I guess that's what one of the things I needed to get some clarification on. I was unclear. What it is. We as counts are being asked to do. I don't think we're being asked to do anything. I don't think you've directed us to do anything. I haven't directed you to do that because if we did start to have that discussion I need to recuse myself and I am the enforcer of the laws. I cannot be in that. I think that's why most of these have come via the people because you have all taken an oath to uphold the laws. But they can change it I can't. I know, that's what I mean. That's why I think most of them have come from the people rather than from boards like yourself. But I guess we're just not going to at the moment to anything on it. Right. We don't have anything to do on it anyhow. Correct. Yeah, again, we don't have anything to decriminalize in the town the and I appreciate that you Made it clear in your memo and I hope clear To the public that these communities that have dealt with this issue Quote decriminalizing it. Their municipal codes made it a specific crime. They have the authority over their municipal codes. We do not have that in our municipal code. Nobody's ever proposed. Add it to our municipal code. Therefore, there's nothing to decriminalize in our community. You can't change state law. You can't change state law. You can't change federal law. We may think we're omnipotent, but not quite that much. It doesn't go that far. Can't do it far to one. Yeah, we can. I again, a note on the pedestrian improvements in front of Creekside Mountain View. And also, we've been chatting with you about the meeting next week. but again, this is just the list of topics that the Marketing Board is proposing to chat with you about. If you have any thoughts on that, let me know. And then finally, again, it was a busy day. But John, Marianne and I on a trip to Denver talking to Bonn Council. I heard a very interesting depressing overview of Proposition 101. Amendment 60 and 61, this just came from Sherman and Howard wanted to pass it on to you. The impacts of any one of these is profound for municipal financing, bonding. I mean, it even kind of penetrates, it deals with 911 financing. It has a tremendous impact on financing for schools from kindergarten to college. It truly, you know, has many tentacles and will be something that will be discussed. I think at length, that cast, at CML. The word is just getting out throughout the state in terms of these three initiatives. We'll be on the ballot in November. The word is getting out in terms of the implications of these, but it really does make us want to think about our financing and what we might do in the future. The other implication is selling bonds in the state of Colorado if these would pass. Would be very problematic if not impossible in the near future. The other addressor? That's why I ask for us to put this advisory in. This doesn't really deal with the nuts and bolts which we dealt with in the seminar. This is our bond council's firms. Advice to us as we go forward. And these apply to things that you've already addressed with us in terms of. Do we want to have a ballot question on funding for to refinance the COPs that funded this building. Another thing that I hadn't thought of, but is in this advice, is if you have obligations with final maturities in 2011. I believe our operations facilities, bonds are up in 2011. And their advice is you may want to consider prepaying those because if you don't, then your tax rate has to be reduced by the amount that was necessary to generate the payments on that obligation. So there's a lot of concern here and in my opinion, this is going to take long range thinking, early decisions and effort on the council's part. So I wanted it in there because it came in and came in about 10 minutes before the fact that I put it in. And I just fired an email and said rust stick this in there because this is draconian. I also want to let you know that as Russ said it is starting to come out. I'm a subscriber to the Denver Post and today was the first article I had seen on it yet. Discussing this. What's the genesis of this? This is, well, that's a matter that's in court. Good question. There are enough signatures to have this certified. The newspaper today said that Douglas Bruce is tied to all three measures, but he's trying to distance himself from it. There were some interesting quotes, and they had a sidebar with the language and what will happen if these go through, and then they pulled three people, Mayor Hickle-Looper, and he opposed all three. And then they had a representative of the, I'm probably not going to get the title of this group, right? The Colorado Union of Taxpayers, and which might be the proponents of this, even that spokesman was not unanimously supportive of all provisions of all three. And then the last candidate to speak on this was Scott McGinnis, and he was opposed to all three, which I personally found interesting. But it did start in the post today. And it's one of the interesting things in it, you know, it's easy to find out Bruce, but a lot of the boosting measures, one of the impacts of this is any deep boosting measure that a community would have passed through the constituents would go away. You know, so I mean, but the story goes on and on. One of the things related to this, we did have an initial discussion, I think Madeleine wrote about it with the FAB. I mean, that was a very focused discussion about what's the marketplace doing today and are there any strategies around it. We'll be coming back to you and discussing various strategies. This is something kind of in the big picture. You'll need to really give some thought to in terms of both our financing, how many initiatives we may want to contemplate, consider for November or if any. We'll be starting that dialogue, a little piece of information next week when we bring a little piece of information next week when we bring a little update of where we stand at the end of 2009 from a financing standpoint. But anyway, it's something that I think all decision-makers in the state need to keep an eye on. It directly impacts our financing, the strategy behind our financing, and something at least at this point we need to all get educated. John sent me this page 82 by email. And on that, on the page it says, the webinar, the unrelated materials available by clicking here, I started listening to it before I had to go up and see the webinar. But I will forward that to the rest of you because it's a good thing to listen to. Yeah, that'd be great. I just wanted to add one more thing and it's, this just really drives it home to me as a resident taxpayer and snowmass village. One of the most draconian provisions of these three are that if you have a certificate of participation which we do on this and whatever that generates each year, once that year is paid, you have to reduce the source that pays for that. So in other words, we should not increase our sales tax to fund this building. We just allocated a portion of that to fund this building. And if this passes next year, or next, in 2011, the $640,000 that we pay on this building, whatever the amount whatever the tax amount is that generates that amount our sales tax has to be reduced by that. Oh so it might go under 10% I'm just kidding. There's a silver lining to this. And when we discussed that I said I know one member of our council that will like that because he has brought that up before but the problem is It's the wrong place for it. Yeah, it's just yeah, well you can't get it back You lose it each and every year and those things go on for I think another 20 Three years something like that so every time you make that payment it gets reduced your sales tax gets reduced by the amount It's like reverse compound interest We're paying people to come here sex gets reduced by the amount that it's like reverse compound interest. Yes, it is. It's quite a good thing. We're paying people to come here. Oh, we do that anyway. Yeah. I also, while we're on the management report, managers report, I also wanted to let you know that today the Supreme Court declared amendment 54 in valid. And so unconstitutional. Which one was amendment? That was the campaign finance act whereby John's great grandchildren wouldn't be able to, you know, it was a sole source contract campaign contributions and any contractor that contracted would not be allowed to contribute to any political candidate for a period of two years or any member of the family. You'll remember John, you brought this up when you were researching tuition. In other words, if you remember. Right. And anyway, the Supreme Court, and it was not an unanimous decision. There was a pretty heavy dissent from one guy, one person, and his basic premise was the voters voted on this, narrowly I'll admit, but this was their will. But the State Supreme Court has determined that to be unconstitutional today. So I wanted to bring that up to you. It was under the junction, but it was okay. Very good, thank you. Okay. Let's look at the agenda for the next council meeting. Jim, there are a couple of things to acknowledge. A couple of ads and potential some offsets to that to recommend. We've got a... We've had been approached by an individual. He's actually with Smithsonian Institute. He's chatted with, I think the mayor, he's chatted with me, he's chatted with Susan. He has kind of an interesting concept for creating a telescope. And there might be some dollars out there. Observatory. Observatory, it's more than a telescope. And he is actually in town next Monday and would like a little bit of time to just communicate the concept to you. I say rodeo place. It's not on. It has been advertised. We've done a public notice. And again, Ernie, I know you've spoke to this. This is, there's a component of rodeo place that has not yet been approved. There is a lot that is in 30% slopes and there's another small lot that in the original provost for rodeo place required town council consent just because you consider this whether you approve it or deny it doesn't mean we build it right now. Frankly I wouldn't feel great at this point building anymore in this environment but we'd like to get that on the agenda. Chris does have a valid notice for in this environment, but we'd like to get that on the agenda. Chris does have a valid notice for it. And then with the discussion you just had earlier at the meeting, it sounds like we have direction from council to add an item for interim building seven. Again, we'd get the materials tomorrow. John and I won't have the opportunity to look at it. We'll certainly look at it afterwards. But I understand from the beginning you did give us direction. Maybe it would be advisable with the consent of council that we're not absolutely fixated on producing the packet tomorrow. I totally agree. I'm glad that's for us. I'm always fixated. Yeah, I think you guys should, know well that might be a good compromise Give us a day and Rest of right. I think you should you know take a day two days most To look at it review it We've had what your comments and concerns on this. That's why you didn't. They pulled back one that they gave to me. Yep. Great. Thanks to. Let's make sure that we can get what we say we can get. I tried last night to get our material online. I got two agendas, one for the divisions, or was it number seven and then I got agenda number eight in no packet you got another words materials were available for seven and eight no there's a there's nothing more than the agenda I could not get any packet I don't know if anybody else tried to look online, but you're looking at the agenda. I thought, well, you know what? He's looking at the whole packet. You have to be on the live needs. Well, then let's change our. I mean, I don't think I'm that much of an idiot in... We need to know. I've not always been that way, but I went to look for it. I know how to look and I couldn't find it other than where it said it was. So if we've got if it's someplace else, the packet I'm looking for the packet. I went to town council. You're looking for today's packet. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Then where'd you go? I can do it. Okay. Well, let's not play quiz now. You know, Arnie, we trust that it wasn't there. Well, I don't know that it wasn't there, but if it's not there, then it's not where one would look. And it's somehow some secret idea of how to get there. Okay, well, I'm asking you. You didn't put in the super secret password. Yeah. Three things that could come out. I mean, that takes you. Hold it. You got another add on. Second reading of the arts advisory ordinance. Right. Fine. Pretty easy stuff. That could go on the consent thing. Yeah. We have a consent agenda. Why don't we do it? It's an ordinance and it'll require a lot of good. Well, three things that could be bumped on the agenda is item five, six, it's two the two FAB recommendations. The FAB would obviously like this as soon as possible Nothing Just trying to get you in and out under six hours Look like it's that long yeah, it didn't appear that was a long meeting Had a particularly starting at five in the past. Anything else on the agenda? Nope. Hey. Arnie. But we all got right. Everybody got this letter from Decker Jones, MacCacken, McLean, Hall, and Bates. Got windy roads on meadow. Yeah. I know. So it's a great street on meadow. Yeah. I know. So it's a great street. I live on it. I know. But I mean, we all got this letter. And I just want to know what we're doing about it. If anything. I was just going to craft a letter saying, thank you for your input. I mean, we're not certainly. They're dealing with it. Yeah, okay. That's all I want. I know you're doing something about it Maybe put up extra sign or something No, whatever. I don't know. So Kerry it would get in my way of going down the hill in the wrong lane Okay, we're just gonna keep an eye on Jay I'm 17 approval of meeting minutes item 17 approval of meeting minutes. So moved. So moved. There's some minutes in here that you can't approve. Good. Here it's not then. OK. Which ones are those? The GID minutes. Because they're not the GID. Probably. I could pay the manager. Page 103. I can pay the manager. Page 103. I can pay the manager. Page 103. Why don't we do do one at a time. 90 through 95. Yeah, we have to do that. I think that's okay. This is for Monday, August 17th 2009. I would just I would just note that I was present at that meeting, but I'm not listed as present. Well, probably you weren't paying attention Okay, this is the first one Ronda August 17th 2009 Mr. Drescher says he was here Granicus bears that out I can't I'll do it instead. I'll second it. We're not just. I have already made my comments and changes and corrections and submitted them earlier to the secretary. All those in favor of the one day August 17th minutes as amended. Aye. Aye. Aye for all those matters occurring after 640 and evening. Thank you. Moving on to next one, which is one day until 19th. Come on. It's March. Wait a minute. That's the ID one. No. No, no, that's the regular. Regular. Hey 96. That's it GID one. No, no, no, that's the regular A. It's a H96. It's okay. This motion by Mark II. Second by. You want up to. Boy no. Any discussion? All in favor? So if I say aye. Aye. We'll pass the 103 GID. Moving on to page 106. This is a special meeting Monday, October 26th. So moved. Just a second. Read Lewis and Arnold Wartgen second. Any yet? Olsen Pader? All right. Any post? That's happened. Yeah, whole packet of these things. Thanks for your time. That I'm done. That's happened. The whole packet of these things on it. Yeah, I'm done. That's wonderful. Moving on to Monday, November 2nd. The party's a little bit more fun. Yeah, you went there. Yeah, what? It was. As I was. Well, that is, you know, it said that at 448 you arrived. Where does it say that? On P-V-111. Oh wow. So for everything after 440, let's only. So Mr. Wilkinson, are you going to make motion to prove these? Second by Markey. All those in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Okay. Next ones. Monday, December 12 12 on page 116 December 21st thank you and second by Mr. Wilkinson all in favor all right to we then or we have to wait until it. We have to wait for our next news to be noticed. No notice. Okay. Council comments, committee reports, calendars. We have the EOTC on 18th. Anybody interested in going down for a legislative slash session with cast? I'm not gonna be able to do that one. I'd love to go but can't. Okay. Being grand junction. I will be missing the first meeting in May. Okay. Tell us a comment. Start with Marky. Anything? No. Nothing really important. Okay. Read. I don't have anything. Did we have a conversation or ask who takes care of the sidewalk down? Coming up Wood Road at the base between... Fight story? Down for the past. We plow it. We plow it. We plow it. We plow it. We plow it. Yep. Because if you people have told me that it hasn't been very good, but it's plowed. It's not down to pavement. Right. It's not like it's the asphalt because it's not in the system. The difference is it's one of our only areas in a commercial area were responsible for that's not snow melting. So really smart. Right. Well, you might remember this is a sidewalk and I'm not, well, I mean it was nice they did it, but this was a sidewalk related came and said could we build it? We knew we were committing to plow it, but there that in our priority in terms of when we plow things but it's not a road you don't just decide what it's a sidewalk it's a sidewalk it's a sidewalk and needs to be kept clean and clear I don't we probably immune anyhow but I don't know what the requirements are about keeping the sidewalk in front of your property. I know in grand junction if you don't get it you're $150 fine. Well we can't find ourselves but I don't know what the state law is. But we need to do more than just power. Unfortunately we should have thought it out before we accepted it to sidewalk. We shouldn't treat it anything differently than we treat the brush creek trail which runs next to the golf course and that's what I mean. That's what I mean. Well, it's not a sidewalk. A sidewalk is a sidewalk. A trail is a trail. Right. I agree with Arnie. We need to do a better job if we can. Well, we can. It's a matter of, you know, resources and some shame that we didn't think of it at the time but it's is what it is. You put dirt over it and call the trail? I have to worry. I mean there's a cost. Sure. Maybe we should have done it at the beginning. We shouldn't have put the sidewalk in. We should have said the vice-right, yeah, you can have it but you better snow melt it. You got to take care of it. Yeah. Or you have to take care of it. I can assure you, if this was vice-right, we would have said, hey, get out there and clean the sidewalk. Well, if we had said that to vice-right, then we owe it the same obligation. Yes. And I'm sure we can't do anything on the mall. But those guys don't know how to remove the sidewalks. We're not like private cars. Those guys don't know how to remove snow. I picked up six people yesterday afternoon. No, but the well, what car is your husband know that? Look, look, look, marquee. Look on the blight side. Operating snow melt system causes public safety. There you go. Let's look on the lights. All I have. The lights on. The lights on. I do. Yeah, I'm just kind of curious what's going on with the Crabloon issue I received approximately 30 emails over a couple of weeks where they all individually written and the pros was different in each one like the ones I received. No, they were all the same. Cutting paste and I respond to each and every single one of them. You did. No, what do you want 30? I like off the more. I didn't respond. One of your work, one of your work, one of your work. I'm just wondering, is there anything going on in that issue? I've heard that there, I haven't confirmed. It's easy to check. But I have heard that there's a bill that was introduced. Yes. It's been discussed. Yes, what I heard, yeah. I just said there, that's just what they were talking about. Yeah, it's I think based on how long a dog can be leached or changed. Right. Okay. Did you get that one? I'm not sure responses. What's that? Did you cut and paste your responses? I did for a couple. Just be careful. I mean, I told this to John. Be careful the responding to those you have a wide variety of people that are participating in that some more radical than others. And some who live in the non-elphite. Well, you could very well be end up in a quasi-judicial hearing on this matter. And if you express an opinion that could be caused for bias and have you recused or removed from. I'm sorry. It's only 24 of five votes any out. Okay. Maybe I'll start. Nope. Arnie. Our town staff, although I'm pitching about the sidewalk. In this very, very difficult time, what we just passed weekend did a super fantastic job. They did absolutely I'll tell them that because they must have been out there every minute of the day you know it's very interesting to work and ask for. I've been asked oh my god you know slip in the streets and fall down and all that and then come home and see the kind of job you could do if you really wanted to put your mind doing it. It is. It's just. I was very excited this week to actually be out there at 2 o'clock in the morning. I enjoy it but thank you for the comment and I will pass that on. I've been hailing diesel those last four days so I'm cropping. We were complimenting you private snowplow. Yeah. Yeah. And then we'll go private stop. We're done. Are we done? Are we done? Yeah. Do you want to take a winter picture for your constant picture when you like to wait to spring or to bring any ideas? Spring. Spring is nice. Spring is nice. Yeah. We always have to spring. Oh, always. We have to wait a minute. Right? Yeah. One winter picture. That's good. We really have to spring. Well, if the town would, you know, get it to buy the ski passes, we could buy it, do them up on the hill maybe. Are we working on that for next turn? Actually, what we talked about was... Go ahead and vote for yourself. I talked to the security to say, if, because we're on talent council, we don't work that requisite number of hours. It's a, be able to buy one on the chamber pass rate. And the ski company said, we could make it, you know, work for council members, county commissioners, if they wanted to buy one, they wouldn't have to do the required number of hours. Quick, we've probably had a county commission to vote against that. Well, that's his problem. Anyways, all, you know, so the two company would work with us. So next year if you want to buy one or this year, if you want to buy one, you can buy it at the same rate as other employees. I think they're waiting to spring. Yes for the spring. Spring. Thank you. A warm day in spring. Yeah. Anything else? It will be adjourned. It's a motion to adjourn. Second by Reed. all those in favor. you Thank you.