I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to do it. the We have for roll call please Barbara here Here here here very good next time we have is for public and non-agent items Moving on, Council update. Let's start with Jason. Anything sir? Nothing for me. Okay. Markey? Let me turn off my cell phone since I always forget to do that. Yeah, I had several phone calls. There's some people from Kentucky looking at purchasing property here and they happen to be horse owners And want to know how they could get their horses into that beautiful property down at horse ranch Now I have no idea how that works Can anybody put a horse down in that property? How does it work, Russ? It's private land so you just need to know property owner and that would be It's private land so you need to know property owner and that would be Norman Polmitter okay, and right now the horses that are in there. I think part of the what was it a temporary Outfitters I think that the horses that are still there are from the outfitters and I would assume they have probably going shortly Well, I thought that's what the answer was, but I sure, you know, I don't want to pass on what I mean. Other than that, I think we have to go down to cozy point. That's what I thought cozy point. That's what I recommended. Yeah. I see if they have any space. I'll crew. I understand that maybe changing here. We'll soon. And so Alcreeke has also been one that people could board at. Other than that, that's about it. Other than that, that's about it. Okay, I'll hold my tongue here and move on to Mr. Wilkerson. A couple of things. Don't forget to vote. Everyone should have their ballot in the mail. And so I don't forget to fill that out and get that turned back in to the Clerk and Recorder's office or put it in the mail. And the other vote that's going on is that the naming committee for the property formally known as Drosty took place. We had a meeting a couple of weeks ago and we narrowed it down to five different names for the Rigline Trail and also for the property itself. But I urge everyone to go to the Pick and County Open Space and Trails website, just Google Open Space, Pick and County Open Space and voteils, website, just Google Open Space, Pick and County Open Space and vote, because it's important that we all register what we prefer for names, and there's some pop culture names I'm not too excited about, but I urge everyone to take a shot and look at it. So that is it. Mr. Cooker, nothing. I will add one other thing here. That's apparently on Tuesday number 1st. There will be a flu shot clinic here in Town Hall from 3 o'clock to 6 p.m. Flu shots are $30 or flu mists. $30 for adults, children under age 18, $10 and the shot for adults is twenty dollars kids ten dollars cash or check only if you have questions call 920 54 20 540 for more info and Medicare covers that so if you're a Medicare person so how much is it three dollars for adults okay and if you do this, it's $30. It's cheap. Yeah. And I'm going to get one. But so you see a 10 bucks by not getting. I give. Oh, at your location. Anyway, that's great. Please do that. Moving on. Item number four we have is for continuation of public hearing and Fannie Hill, Kevin's minor beauty amendment. Mr. Wallstrom Thanks mayor this particular item came but before council back on May 2nd when it was initially introduced to Presented and at that time Council directed staff prepare an ordinance for the next meeting As it turns out the applicant requests to continuance. I believe it was at the June 20 meeting at that meeting. It was agreed that it would be continued to, the public hearing would be continued to this meeting for 17. The applicant has since requested another continuance to April 16th of next year. Probably as a result of... You're betting the foreclosure will be done by then? Yes. Yeah, based on the situation and I probably put ten bucks on it. Okay. Any takers? No. I think I'll also need to mention based on a suggestion that we enter into the records some of the comments that we've received in the past, but maybe I'll do that when the public hearings opened. Sounds good. At this point, I'll go ahead and open the public hearing. And the public hearing. Re-opened the public hearing. Well, then in that case, we did receive on Monday, October 10th. And I think I received a day or two earlier, but after the packet was distributed. But we received an email from the Part-time Residence Advisory Board. Jim, would it be better to, depending on what we do today, would you be better to read that today, or would be better if we decide to continue this till their discussion for a broader discussion, to read that at that point? Well, I'm not gonna read. I'm just gonna mention that they submitted their letter. They basically reiterated the same comments from their May First Meeting. And then as a matter of record we also received a letter from Marine Bell dated April 18, 2011 and also an email from Matt Curtis dated May 17th and I believe it's fair to say that all of those folks basically expressed an unfavorable opinion regarding the proposed amendment. Okay. Thank you. John. So noted for the record. Appreciate it. But I think the matter before you is the continuance. Right. So, Council, do we want to hear anything from Mr. Jim? I mean, Don, about this, or do we want to continue on with the question before us today? Should we grant a continuance? John, we'll consider. I do have a question because you're allowed to have one continuance without finding, but the second one you have to have. Good cause. Good cause. And so we're being asked that the good cause is that for closure may happen. No, no, I That was my question the staff What are the rules regarding good Mr. Chris Good good cause shown would be for you to determine and you would utilize the letter that Don had submitted found in page two of your packet date October 4th 2011 you might recall that it was continued to this meeting that was the one meeting or the one Continuance applicants Request and it was continued to what would thought be a reasonable period after the the sale that the thing is projected out be a reasonable period after the sale. That the thing is projected out. So it's not quite certain when it'll be coming to closure. So they're asking for the April date. Right. Then I have a question for John Dresser. Then can you give us an example of what you might consider a good cause may be? Because I know you're going to ask us. You're going to tell us that it's up to us to determine, but I don't know if there's any way we could have some guidance on what might be a good cause parameter. Well, it's in the discretion of the body conducting the public hearing, so it's in your discretion. And so for me to give you an example, one way or another might be actually an undo influence. Okay. Marky. Well, I'm gonna go back into what I recall in our conversations previously. We've talked about this foreclosure. I don't know how many times. I don't know how many times we've had date set. And of course it doesn't happen. We don't even know if the November 16th or whatever the date is pushed to now. I only track what I don't even follow it anymore. But it's worse than an elephant being pregnant and giving birth. The point is that we know that consideration for this property in the build out accordingly was based on the completion of other substantial properties down in base village. So I see that as kind of the contingent, the quid pro quo. So I'm for the continuance personally. I don't want to say well, we only do one more public hearing or two more or half a one or what have it because this whole thing is pushed out based on what's happening with base village. That's where I stand on it. Thank you and I think that's very apropos point. Right. I absolutely agree. This was continued because the ski co-thought before closure would have taken place by now. It hasn't take a place by now. That was the rationale for it. I think this is good cause to extend it again until it's done. We're not prejudicing ourselves in any way. We're giving them the opportunity to come back before us, which I think is fair. And I think we ought to continue it. Anyone else? Is there a motion? Some move it. Second. Marky motion to Someone move it. Second. Marky motion to continue this until... Whenever. April, when do we have to have a date specific? 16. April 16, 2012. At some time after four o'clock. Fred made a second of that motion. Further discussion? All those in favor of that motion. Further discussion? All those in favor of that motion? Please signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Those opposed? Aye. Okay. Four to one. Thank you. And Mr. Wilkinson would be negative. What do you reckon? I just didn't find it compelling that for closures it's a much too positive. Okay. Let's move on then. We'll put a minute here for the new group to set up. This is item number five, public hearing. Actually, at this point I'd probably go back and continue the public hearing until April 16, 2012, at some time after 4 o'clock. Okay. Now we'll move into the next group. Item five, Public Hearing Resolution 30 is of 2011. Radio play subdivision, second minor amendment, amending final play in Resolution 15 in the series of 2010. Let's go ahead and open the public hearing while they're getting set up and see if anybody has any desire to. And then we will continue discussing it as an opening hearing for a little bit longer until we get done for our work. Mr. Conrad. Mr. Mayor, this application does concern a lot for the rodeo place subdivision. Dan Rotner, Bob Kaufman and Joe Kauf here present to discuss this in greater detail. However, just as an overview, this you may recall that an application was considered in April 5 of 2010 to deal with lot for, which is set virtually the same as this application before you today. And it was denied at that time that the planning department's recommendations contained in our staff report, we have actually three options that are available. One is to deny this request, in which case lot four would remain for a top lot and open, I forget the exact language, but would not be for residential use. Or to approve the application is submitted, which would allow the lot to be re-platted as shown on page nine in the packet, which incorporates a portion of Open Space A, which is a part of a ditch easement. In addition to that, the town has an intention of putting some designated wetlands within that area. And so staff with the Planning Department has suggested your consideration, a third option, being that the lot not be replanted to include this additional portion of the open space A. And but rather, it remain as it is today, it'd be permitted to have a single family residence. And remember that that additional portion of the easement was only being added to this lot to create, increase the lot size so that it could have a two bedroom house. So this approval today for your consideration allows a two bedroom house. It retains the lot as it's currently platted. It indicates that a variance would need to be applied for the floor area that's permitted for that residents with the planning commission. And one would imagine that as the land owners of lot floor and as the principles in the development of this lot, that they would need to be bringing back any design specific changes to the house you've already seen, or even at some time prior to the variance, they would need to discuss what they'd be submitting for a variance to the Planning Commission in their direction. Mr. Fred. The foot could remain the same, right? That doesn't change at all. The footprint for the house. Well, not at this time, it doesn't. No, no, no. But even if we were to, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if we, if mean, this may be a distinction without a difference, if you will, because if we approve the variance and say the house can be built on lot four, it's the same house whether we give, increase the size of the lot or not. Isn't that correct? For the most part. In other words, should they apply to the Planning Commission for a variance? Right. They can apply for setback variance, which will allow it to change the footprint of this house. They could apply for additional floor area, which could make the house slightly larger than what you have previously reviewed. So I think we need to discuss that and they're present to be able to do this. They're fairly comfortable and they understand the Planning Department's recommendation on this and we think it's workable. That they're going to be coming in to the Planning Commission following a meeting with you with a design specific variance proposal for the Planning Commission to consider. Again, is the variance to allow a house to be built in this footprint at a lot that smaller than what otherwise allow That square footage. Isn't that what's going on? Yes Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay Okay, so and so if we don't if we don't give them the extra If we don't give them the extra feet that they might need to get a lot to the appropriate size to build a house of this size, he easement simply remains and that's the concern, as I understand from reading the stuff, that's sort of the concern that we somehow interfere with that easement. And that would take care of that problem, right? problem, right? They need a variance to build a house. So you would have to direct them as to what house would be appropriate on that lot and then they go to the plank. I understand that but the concern about giving them this extra attaching if you will this extra footage to that lot is that it will incorporate the the drainage easement that's there, okay? And that's the concern that's being expressed. Right. Am I correct? So what you'll have is That it will not incorporate that drainage ease portion. It will be a non-conforming lot. Right. You're comfortable with it It being considered for residential They need to obtain a variance from the planning commissioner or the size and footprint location of that residence. Design specific, which would have come to you before. Let's hear from the applicant. Hey, well, actually, Chris did a really good job I think of summarizing the process we've been and you know, I think some of you obviously are familiar with Council. Would this lot from previous discussion, the previous Council there? And so just as a free overview, here's the overall rodeo place site plan. And there is a lot for, and then the arrow points through the training to the site. So, next slide, illustration currently recorded flat in the subject area. And would this, this is the parcel grant boundary that we talked about with the 3,320 flat area. And then by way of reference, here's the drainage easement. So part of the drainage easement really extends over all the way to the boundary of the building envelope. So this is just highlighting the building envelope. So the, and this is just highlighting the building envelope area. Dan, could we get you to speak closer to the microphone? I'm sorry. So the green just illustrates the building envelope area. So the discussion, I know what's complicated here is I think that when we went back and met with staff and dealt with the multitudin of issues that were affecting this parcel, I think that staff came up with a pretty creative approach or an approach that really did take a big picture view of solving the issues and making the most out of this property. And I think that the question which was asked, was a good one, which is, are you going to change the building envelope if you go for a variance? And what happens is that because our initial approach to this project was to not change the building envelope, not ask for bigger building, ask for a, ask for an amendment to the plat, which allowed this to be a by-right structure that fit within the existing envelope. And there were some limitations to what we could do within that envelope. And I think that there were concerns about the size and livability of the resultant design given those limitations. So in going for a variance, it opened up the opportunity to look at making some small adjustments to the building envelope or effectively going outside of the building envelope to basically provide a more livable design. So we weren't looking at a major reconfiguration of the house just potentially opening ourselves up to the possibility of improving it a bit. But you can't go outside the envelope on the easement, right? Absolutely not. You'd have to go back the other way. Yeah. OK. So, and what we've illustrated here, we've taken a quick look at what could be done if we were to say, OK, all we want to do is make it more livable. We really don't want to do a wholesale redesign or looking at a larger house. But what can we do if we took this approach? So again, this is the view of the, this is how we applied for the platt amendment and this is the area in question that we looked at bringing in to the lot to make it a conforming lot. If we're going to ask for the variance, this is what our lot would end up looking like as it is right now. And the opportunities that we're looking at or the potential opportunities we're looking at to modify the home to take advantage of the opportunities afforded by a variance are highlighted in this area. So you can see we're looking at some pretty minor setback variances in this approach. Things we could not do before, but which under the variance process we have the opportunity to take advantage of. I keep coming back to why you want to go into that easement. I mean, if we can do this with just giving you a variance, so you could move outside the existing building envelope, and we'd make this a non-conforming use, why would you want to go into that easement? We're not planning on going into the easement. And actually, what would you ask for your red line shows? Well, the red line, what's interesting is the lot is already platted along the lines of the red line. So part of the lot is in the easement already. So that's the way it's defined. But we're definitely not interested in building any part of the home in the easement. That's something we would never consider doing. So no improvements in the easement. And so it's the green that other green the green areas actually so if you look at this These are added this the darker greens the original house. Yeah, this brighter green is added areas that are within the building on Vlope and the red of the areas of the building that we're looking at potentially Outside of you know in terms of scale what is that a nine by 12 or what is it? This area in here is basically enough to add a bathroom five by 10. That's about 60 square feet in. Okay. And over in that one corn six. And this actually this area doesn't need. Let me see if I can get this mouse to show here. This area down here doesn't even include additional living space. We're just talking about adding a deck area. So there's a little bit of outside space on that house. And I've in discussion with Joe, this design that I've illustrated today, which I'll show you in a second here, shows that it's being a covered porch, but it could just as easily be an uncovered porch, depending upon. And what would be the living area that's the square footage? The total living area, this I think we've got it spelled out here. So the total finished area before the amendment was 1,020 square feet, and we're looking at upping it to 1,162 square feet. So pretty minor adjustment. We've been spending a lot of time on this. No, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Conrad. I just need to point out that what he are showing is essentially the way they'd be pursuing their variance application. And there's some benefit to that for you to understand that there is this process. But for you to be expected to make a decision whether to allow them to design a house with this additional amount of square footage, that's probably a discussion better for another. Not really. Well, are we? Mr. Dresser? You can delegate as owners now to your design team the ability to go forward with the variance if you're satisfied with it. So that's really, that's separate from the process of this resolution. Can do that tonight. We probably I think what Chris is trying to get is to focus on the resolution first. And then if you want to go into design discussions with your representatives, we can do that. So he's trying to make sure we don't cross any lines. I didn't want you to have a belief that you were approving this tonight. It's hard for your be your action, but we're talking about. Because you don't grant variances the Planning Commission does. You can direct your representatives to seek a variance and understand that variance. Okay. Request. Yeah, a couple of questions under staff comments on page five, the bottom paragraph. It says that the draining management is identified as open space on subdivision plan. Does that mean it is zoned open space? If you need a security to change? Should you go back to the site plan that shows what open space A. Okay. What we're meeting is that this 50 feet here is the is part of well is part of the open space a I guess it's better shown on the drawing page 9 of your packet Yeah, there you go. What's interesting is the the easement and the open space don't exactly align. So part of the easement is on the private property and part of it's on open space A. So is it? The easement is 50 feet here. Okay. It's the area and bay. And it's open space A is includes this portion of the easement, but it also goes down over here. All right? So when we use the term open space, and that is coming out, that when the proposal was for this portion here to become part of that lot, that was part of open space A, which is also part of the drainage easement. Right, so does that mean that you have to have a super majority to approve the change? No. It's not a zoning open space. OK. So that's my question. You're calling it open space, but it's really not open space. It was plated. It was zoning. It was zoning too. Yeah. That's like on our page 9, I guess. OK. And then another one of my concerns is by changing the lot line is that on page 13 in our conditions C is landscaping and grading. Before we go to expand that into the drainage, it has a prohibition of doing any landscaping or grading, but is there anything going forward that would prevent the homeowners from planning shrubs, trees? The issue we're dealing with right now is there's the potential that with the town that this portion in through here was going to be designated as mitigation wetlands to be restricted to the court specifications of the court. And so this language that you're reading, that paragraph C on page 13 was in the original plan, and we're just restating it, that the planning department has to any grading site worker landscaping within the drainage easement shall receive prior approval of the planning department. If you went out there and look, there's some people down here that have property and they've done a few things that kind of stick out into the drainage easement. These types of things are things that should be approved by the planning department so that they do not interfere with the drainage or what may be ultimately some mitigation wetlands. So in the future, is there going to be anybody checking on that to make sure that they haven't done any planning? I mean, this is, I mean, what my concern is going forward that that may happen since it is now going to be part of their lot. It's not going to be part that the original application was for this portion to be part of this lot. It's not our to be part. The original application was for this portion to be part of this lot. It's not our recommendation and they've agreed that this portion will remain, yeah, the lot will remain as it's currently platted. The envelope will remain as it's currently platted. That they're going to design a house and go to the planning commission for a floor area variance. So they don't need this land area just to have to increase their floor area. They're getting a design specific variance from the planning commission for floor area. And Dan was talking about the potential for a deck extension a little bit here and a little bit of increase to put a second bathroom in this house. That's something that you can discuss here later. One of the reasons we also were concerned is this house has no deck off the back and so we really didn't want to have to deal with variance applications to be sticking out into the for decks to be sticking into the drainage areas. So working with them to create a deck here would probably be a beneficial thing. I just want to make sure that nothing affects the water course easement through there. That's why the planning department made the recommendation that they made was to preserve any encroachment into that. Any further encroachment? Well, I still feel that this is too small of a house on, too small of a lot. Okay. Well, let's see, is there discussion about resolution 30, is there a? I just had a quick question for Chris really quick. I thought I saw somewhere that there was some condition or requirement to put a split rail fence. And I, but now I'm looking at this resolution and I don't see it. No, is that ringing about for you guys at all? There was a split rail fence and something that I read. It said something like a split rail fence would be required along the back lot line or something like that. That was in one of the B2 proposal that was in the packet. We're not proceeding. That's another scenario. What we were saying was if you're going to be plating into this area, we want to split real fence because we've got to keep people from encroaching further. Since we're not doing that now, that will not occur. Okay. Thank you. Is there any other comment from the public? This is a resolution of a 30. Is there a motion? Some moved. Motion by Markey. Second by Mr. Cooker. Mr. Mayor. Conrad. A couple quick changes on line 28. Whereas the First Amendment, it says 2 was 2. It should scratch the first 2. Okay. On page 11, line 94, I believe it is bold. it says note the maximum FAR 4 lot that should say 4 instead of lot 2 so I was typing error if you and that should do it. question about this Rezo. I'd call for approval. Resolution number 30, all those in favor. Seedin' the papasign aye. Aye. Aye. Those opposed? Aye. Mr. Wilkinson opposed. Board one. Please move forward and then as Mr. Dresser had stated, is it something that the council wants to do to let them go forward? And it would be valuable for us from a timing standpoint to understand if you're comfortable with us moving forward as they articulated in an application. Can I just ask who made the motion second? I got it. But you had it never mind. I would say yes. I think you can be open. Move forward. Yes. What's that move forward with the variance? I would say yes. I think you can be open. Move forward. What's that move forward with the variance? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like the idea of moving forward the variance application. Can we look at the design a little bit though? Let's get to the first one. We'll go there. Marking. I'm fine. Move forward. I don't want to deal with it. John. Sure. Good. I want to close the public hearing. I'll go ahead and close the public hearing at this point. Thank you, Mr. Connmed. Let's just a favor ask for some other details. Sure. Let me move forward here. A few slides. Whoops, sorry. A long way. Okay. So the change is basically what we did. I know that Mr. Wilkinson's concerns about livability, and I think that there were some challenges in this building. I mean, namely, the biggest one that we identified was that it's a just two bedroom single bath. So for something that's small, that was definitely a limitation. And the second feature was just the limited outdoor use space. We only have the front porch, essentially, and then the issues associated with the drainage on the back. So the changes that we're proposing allow us to add, it adds a master bath, essentially, off of one of the bedrooms creating it as a master. And then a pretty, I think a pretty nice deck opportunity off of the main living space that pretty that that faces south which is definitely desirable compared to the porch. And then at the same time when with more space downstairs we we developed the entry downstairs and we developed a small space at the lower level which could work as an officer, dense space, and at level as well. So just to summarize, these are the areas of added floor area or added exterior and then these are the areas where we reconfigure things on the interior to some extent. So fairly small changes but we feel like they can make a pretty big difference in terms of the livability of the unit, especially for the small unit people are going to be pushing more against the maximum limitations of their homes. So we felt it was worthwhile. And how many occupants? Four. Four. And just to give you some sense of what the exterior, I mean this is a very quick illustration of how these changes pan out just with the additional deck area. And in fact we've talked about not putting a roof over this section I think that's the, which is advantageous because there's less view impact to the neighbors because the better views are in this direction anyway. But this will give you some idea just of the change in the next room at the house. So what's the date for starting and completing or what's, well, you know, what's the plan going to be? Well, they have to get through the planning commission first before they could really even estimate that. I think they're still a desire to start this year with construction. If we can move quickly through the variance process. That's what's helpful about presenting these changes to you now, so you have some idea of what we're going to be presenting. And that's the plan. That's what we can pull it together. So by doing this owner's conference here and now now because your next meeting is not really for three weeks They'll be expedited the process It's desirable if we can if we can move this house forward at the same time that the If the other units are under construction it reduces the general conditions and overhead costs associated with this house as well, so and overhead costs associated with this house as well. So, the anxious get that place completed then there. Okay, Chris. And, you know, this is the first time I've seen this, and I think we've been working very well with them. And the only thing that really would be that that is a covered deck, and it may interfere with the view of the person further up. And I mean, it's a classic what it takes to get a variance approved through the planning commission and they'll make an independent decision on this, but and we'll process it as promptly as we can. Mr. Joe, we are going to look at removing the roof over that deck because it'll be less, they'll be more affordable for us. And I think it'll be less impacted to the neighborhood. With it being personally, with it being such a small place, I'd probably prefer to keep the roof over it so to have a little bit of an outside place to sit in a little snow or whatever, but that's up to you guys. Yeah. There's still another cover for us, but I'm actually too. Yeah, okay. Well, I'm not going to get into design. Right. Okay. Anyone else? I just want to other question. How many people do we still have remaining in the lottery from what we did down there? Let's see. We have four. If this home is approved, then we have buyers for all the homes, unless the phone drops out. But I sent an email out a few weeks ago and I haven't heard from anyone. So I think everyone's still interested. We have two potential buyers for this home. One young couple, one bandwagon. This is a very nice small affordable home. It will be our most affordable home in this certain project. And so right now we have an environment for everything we're building, I guess. So we have to reopen the lottery with this one now being approved. No, because I extended the lottery period. Okay. For your directions a few months ago, we extended that lottery period and I advertised this one. Okay. That's good. I'm in the ads. I told him it's pending your approval for this home. So we're all set once we get approval if we approval from the planning commission. We can go ahead and hold our lottery or move forward. Good. Thank you. Very good. Anything else we need? It's kind of red. I think we're done on this one. Gentlemen, thank you for your time and energy. Okay, let's move on to item 6. Got it. Yep, you're on. This is presentation on the marketing specialists and group sales, stakeholder plan and recommendations on that plan from the financial advisory board. We have a couple minutes to set this up. Let's take 10 minutes here for a little while. We had a couple minutes to set up. Let's take 10 minutes here for a little bit. We'll add a schedule. Your ahead schedule and Susan and her crew are not quite ready yet. Oh, she'll be ready. Correct. Quickly, you also, I believe, have the packet that we just got. The numbers for the EOTC budget changed even in the last four to five days from the information we put in the packet that we got from Tom Oaken. We've gotten a little bit better. The story is in fundamentally different. Again, as you recall, the free bus service will end as budgeted in April of 2013. We are also attempting, the budget is attempting to pay back the entrance to Aspen to the tune of about $50,000 a year. That payment would have started next year and would have been a repayment of $250,000 and that's paying for some design work for a bridge or an underpass at the ABC location beside the airport. Because of lower than anticipated use tax revenue, even though sales tax has gotten a little bit better, the primary beneficiary of that will be the, will be rafta at the end of the day. There still will be eventually a shortfall in being able to pay back the entrance to Aspen for this design work and paying for the fair subsidized bus route. So this is an issue, it's not going to be an issue that you're going to have to make a decision on on Thursday. Take a close look at the numbers that are in your packet. David and I just got a chance to look at it. It's something that we need to, we would suggest you need to begin working on now so that this is in a crisis as you're in the 2012 timeframe looking at 2013. We've been looking at what might be, if you've stayed the same, what might be a graceful compromise that could enable to continue to fund the entrance to Aspen and the free bus service right now we're at a 66 33% split for the cumulative discretionary funding. If we change that to a 60 40 split in other words the entrance to Aspen get just a tad less money and sort of 66 that goes to 60 percent that could potentially allow a 66 that goes to 60%. That could potentially allow the interest to ask them to continue to get funded. It could potentially allow the free bus service to be funded over time. So again, just wanted to give you a heads up. The way we were looking at the numbers a week ago, it looked like this issue might have been more of a topic at this meeting. Looks like with the numbers Tom Oken has in front of you. It's not an immediate issue, but it's something that you do need to be aware of. You need to be very aware of it, particularly if other jurisdictions want to throw other projects in such as construction on an underpass or bridge. underpass or bridge, there clearly would not be enough funding to do both the Free Bus Service, another capital project, and continue to fund the entrance to Aspen as originally anticipated. So the numbers that we have, this package, are correct with these. These are the most recent numbers in the packet you have from Tom. You got to, again, a little bit more optimistic about the numbers. So I'm 60% in here and that could have stopped. Yep. So make sure those. But we still have a challenge in the future going beyond 2013 if Ustax stays at its same rate. He's being very, very conservative though in terms of his financial numbers on that. So just want you to be aware of it, and there's still a tough discussion to occur with EOTC. Doesn't have to happen on Thursday. Right. And for that discussion, make sure we're all going to be there, or it's right now going to be there. For this, I will not be there for this meeting. Next, next Thursday meeting. Is it four? Yeah, and the four. I will do, third meeting. Okay. Is it four? Yeah, and the four. I will do my best, ma'am. The topic is, again, you'll be looking at the 2012 budget. Just a quick, uh, uh, cross, I don't follow all of the politics in this valley. Uh, sorry. There's a lot of politics. I know there's a lot of politics. Was, has there been any movement on the entrance to Aspen from previous council in Aspen? After we did that whole study? And they would indicate that there's still an interest in moving forward with that. Whether something is imminent or not, I think it's hard to say. I think it would be a good question for you to ask your colleagues from Aspen. Okay. Anything else else on the evening? We also have a cast meeting and dates. If you are interested, please contact Barbie immediately. I think we may have passed the deadline for inexpensive hotel. For the discounted rooms. Yes. Is anyone going? I'm going to go. I don't need a room. and expensive hotel. But it discounted rooms, yeah. Is anyone going? I'm going to go. I don't need a room. There's dinner. There's dinner. Right now I'm planning to go. That's about all I have. Okay. Thank you. It looks like we're mostly here. Rick Griffin is, like I've mentioned, who will be representing FAB. I think we may have some other FAB members joining us. He's coming back and we'll be here as soon as possible. All right. But. Let's start off then. Hello, Susan. Could it be helpful, Mr. Mayor? and just a little bit of background in terms of how we got to today. I'd be happy to do that. Let's go ahead. I just wanted to take a couple steps back. March 21st of this year, the town council and the marketing board got together a lot like this and you had a very fruitful discussion where you talked about measurements, governance, reporting, summer programs. And I think the resort, the idea that the FAB would review and a financial accountability and measurements at that point and at that meeting that was reconfirmed and we began looking at scheduling time with the FAB and the marketing board. I really just wanted to say I think the two boards did a fantastic job of really listening to each other, focusing on the challenges of what is measurable, what is not measurable in a quantitative way, and really actively listening to each other. And I think the stakeholders report that you see in front of you has been an evolving document. I'm personally hoping that could kind of turn into a business plan that this board presents to the council on a quarterly basis. And then it also is a tool for the rest of the community to kind of clearly demonstrate goals, the results of those goals and again where money is going. In one of the last discussions with the marketing board and they've had a number of meetings and I guess I just wanted to share with the council. I've been impressed with, you know, they've looked hard at what they've done. They've kind of gone back to the purpose statement of the board and where they started and had some tough discussions. One of the things that really got my attention is at the last, the meeting before last, I wasn't at their meeting on Friday. They began talking about summer and what's the goal? You know, regardless of the tactic, whether it's events or a different type of program to move the needle in the summer, what's the goal? And again, I just would want to really encourage, you know, to be a discussion about what is the goal? Because again, we had a pretty good summer in terms of sales tax improvement. We've done a lot better than some of our peers and mountain resorts. And so again, I think it's important to be able to celebrate success when we have it, but if we don't hit a goal to be able to correct our actions when we don't receive that goal. So again, it was a very interesting discussion. And I think David spoke quite a bit about that, but the board is a whole didn't I think at the end of that discussion identified a specific summer goal. The purpose of tonight really is to give, for you to get an update on the stakeholders report, the discussions and the progress that has occurred between the FAB and the marketing board. I think it's also an opportunity to have a discussion about budget. We purposely did not get into the details of this, even though I think Fred, you framed a number of questions when we had our budget retreat. But again, I think you've got the board here and all the resources here to hopefully answer questions you might have about the budget in November. At our first meeting, November, we'd like to bring the 2012 budget to you. If you needed another opportunity to have a follow-up discussion, we could take that to the third Monday in November, but that would be our final opportunity to have a 2012 budget approved. And again, the marketing budget is part of the overall town budget, and we believe that needs to be considered and approved together. So with that I know Rick Griffin is coming might make sense at this point to begin with a little overview and presentation from the marketing board and when Rick Griffin gets here I know he'd be happy to run through the recommendations. I think those recommendations from the FAB are on page four of your memo. Okay. The Susan. Mr. Quigley. Good evening. My name is John Spigley. I am Chair of the Stomach Sparkling Special Events Group Sales Public Relations. I guess service is bored. marketing, special events, group sales, public relations, get services bored. First off, I want to thank my fellow board members for the time and energy and dedication they put in on an annualized basis, but most recently since March, a series of meetings where we were drilling down, as I mentioned, we had a board retreat, analyzing and evaluating what we do, how we can do it better, taking a hard look in the mirror, hearing what Council says, FAB, and the community at large, and we have, you have a document that is a narrative, and what I thought we could do is start off by going through some slides, some slides, a presentation that will give you an overview, a score, scorecard of how we're doing so far. Good. Yes, please. What's the strike? The first image up there is the winner in 2010, 2011. What this is showing us is the occupancy in stone as the overall number. Hey John, I'm sorry. Speak like. Yeah, better than the microphone for the TV guests. As David, my assistant is pointing out, the winner total is up 11%. Could you go through which is 2011, which is 2010? I mean, I can read that, but the audience probably can't read, which is what? I mean, the audience can't see the graph as well. That's why, Daryl, you score a wide. 2011 is 43% in the blue and 2010 is the striped. So you can see each month, except for November. November we missed by a point. December we were up January. February, excuse me, we're down. Yes. The increase in March is carnival and the Kitski Free Program. And April. Yep. So that's the winter. Sure. We'll do the lead on the microphone. Just make sure you mic on in front of me. Speak please. Yeah, I mean this represents the last winter's calendar quite effectively. Very positive results. Of course, you know, with the change in the Easter, a very late Easter to get these results even in April is pretty good, but March was a big month, especially with the way spring breaks fall and as well as Carnival. And of course, as everybody knows, March is the largest revenue producer of the entire year for the town. So I was encouraging to see. Next, isn't this summer of 11, comparing it to 2010. And we have the same as of August 31st, thank you David. Comparing last summer to this summer, and you can see the end total for summer as of right now, we're up 20% and every month is up for summer occupancy and reservations. So June is 19% up by 18% up by this 25% up. September and occupancy 18% up. September and I can see 18% up. I think a lot of these numbers align well with the sales tax revenues that we have. I know it to date. A question for you guys. Do you have a broken down by lodging? By vice-roy versus subvertory or any of that type of detail. Okay. How long have you been using M-Trip? Six years. How does snowmess compare to our competitive set of 14? And you can see that in, we're in the top six December February, second in January, tied for first in March. This is from a largely perspective. What I've noticed for the silvery wildwood over the years is winter we tend to be very competitive with other ski hotels, other ski lodging and in the summer as you can see we're not as competitive. Eighth in June, July, August, we're pacing 10th, and September, once we get the final numbers, we'll probably come in 7th. And you're measuring this based on occupancy, what percent is that, what this represents? Yes. Yes. Next. So, some of you are closed on up where the emergency started. So why don't you go on with that? Susan, go back one if you would please. Oh, not that one, the next one. You would. On that 14, can you refresh my memory? Good luck. Does that include the front range? Ski resorts as well? It includes a bill copper, tell your ride, Bracken Ridge, Vail, even Creek Park City. So it includes the wide range of resorts. So we have a drive market and a fly market. Robert? Bob? Also, Dave? Thank you, Bob. Hi, Crump, please. It also includes them out of state. Oh, OK. Yeah, Mark City. So I think. Park City, with the park city. Park City. And Tom. Yeah. I like data. So next question would be of the 14, we came in six, up there in the winter out of 14. If I removed the drive, the drive twos, where would we come out? We don't know that right now because when we get the report to keep it autonomous, it just says next highest resort, it doesn't say who the resort is. We could get it, we could go back and ask M-trip to do it. There's a minimum number that need to be in the Comset though to keep it confidential. What we're going to do moving forward is now we're this down to six and the Comset will be different winter and summer. So the Comset in the winter time would be more destination resorts. They'll be the creek, tell your ride, perhaps Park City. And then the summer we'd have more, as our competition changes in the summertime, probably more of a copper keystone as destinations in the summer. So it'd be a true comp set where we can drill down as you're asking and get that. How are we doing really? I have the same question. Okay. Next of his question is, okay, what about the money? This shows winner sales tax revenue. 2010-11, this would be January, no, excuse me, November through April. And you can see that this past season, it was the third best since 2002. So we are moving the needle in the right direction and we have our goal of matching 2006, 7 and 7 and 8. So I think a point two is that the historical trending up has continued again. Summer sales tax revenue, this does not include the summer of 11. We'll get to that in a moment. This would be made through October and historical. So was the drop off greater in the summer than it was in the winter? As a percent, because I'm looking at the difference between three, yeah. Between 11, 07 and 936 is at percent wise. So it looks like there's more of a drop off in the summer. Percent wise from 320 to. The ADR in the winter, the somewhere north at $300 a room night. And the ADR in the summer is just barely over 100. So you may be seeing some of the demographic effects of recession, responsiveness to the economic downturn by different people coming at different times and those people having different economical ast capacities in recession. And that also reflects too. Like that's the ADR. I'm sorry, but this is sales tax. What is how does that relate to ADR? We have as part of the entry report, one of the statistics we get is showing average rate for the lodging occupancy and the revenue accumatively for snow mass and as Bob said in the winter it's about $300 and the summer is hovers for at around 100. So with lower rates in the summer Fred you're going to get less sales tax occupancy. So if you're room is only a- Is this, I thought, lodging, bed tax or lodging tax is different from sales tax? Lodging pays both taxes. So the lodging revenues are for instance subject to the 1% talent tax, the 2.5% marketing. So this is just the lodging portion of the- No, no, no,ging portion of the total revenue. Excuse me, overall revenue. Yeah. It's lodging, retail, restaurants, service. Okay, so this is all sales tax. Yes, also. Okay, that's the last thing. Yeah. This is summer sales tax as of August for all years. So May through August, and you can see for the summer of 2011, we are tracking right now for the fourth best summer. We believe once we get September and October, we will certainly pass 2006, and we will get close to 2008. certainly passed 2006 and we will get close to 2008. So you didn't pull out August of September in the prior years? On this slide we pulled out the, we pulled out September in October. Okay so that is it. And the memory design, it's apples, apples. How I went through this is what's the next question I would ask. Yeah. So you go through occupancy and then you this is, what's the next question I would ask? Yeah. So you go through occupancy and then you say, okay, now where's the revenue? And then you would ask, where are we now versus previous years? And that's what this is perfect. Giving you an idea, perfect. So we're pacing strong. This is the overall annual sales tax revenue for the entire season, total sales in snowmast from January through December. And it's the same message of trending upwards every year, dropping down, felt that the most in 2009 with the recession and now turning the corner and heading back up again. Do you have the year to date? Number? Yes. Come up there. Much like that. Guys again. You imagine that next question didn't you? I wonder what the fourth one is going to be. Well, let you keep working. Stump the professor. As of August, so we did the same exercise again with total revenue. And you can see that the summer of 11, as of August, is tracking pretty well. And again, I don't think the bottle pick will catch eight. It's a lofty goal, but where we are right now is pretty positive for the year and we see it continuing to grow. I think that's seven, I think that would be nice. Yeah. You think you'll sketch seven. Well, December is not really, we would say yes. October will be up, but it's small numbers. November is not October will be. We don't know in, we had a group previous year Kellogg and I'm not sure. When I did these these numbers I said if we're going to be flat the rest of the year where are we going to come up and we came just short of 2007. Okay. Next. This is a thinking slide. You had a package. That was in the packet. This is a thinking slide. That was in the packet. This is in the stakeholder's plan. So this is a change in snowmasses minus 12 percent. 2010 versus 2007. David, would you like to? This is a more data that we get from M-Trip and they measure these various mountain towns and their sales tax base and their percent change year over year by month. month. And this is June, this past year versus June prior year, and showing percent growth. If you look at snowmass village here, 18.8% growth, second best performer in June versus this said, if you can't read it, that's Tellyride Mountain Village, catch a myadah to hoe Silver Thorncrest Abute Aspen, Ava on which Clude's Beaver Creek, Steamboat, goes on and will tell you what I have to say. This is called Reconrich, Durango Vale. So that was June. So I was encouraging Performance in June against other mountain towns. And then we have July, which is the last month that we have compiled in so much village in third place with almost 14% growth year over year. Vail had a good month in July, poor in June, but good in July, up high, and then you see cascading down here, Aspen, for comparison, up 8 and a half in July. So encouraging there compared to some of our competitors. We don't have August yet, September to see how the whole summer comes through, but we like how someone is trending. Well we have this, if we're looking at various metrics, I really find this very telling. I don't know about the rest of you. It really does begin to benchmark against those other resorts and what's happening in those other resorts. So if we're talking about a quarterly update at some point, I'd kind of highlight this one as well. Yeah, it is really strong information. It's, I mean, compilably I'm tripping some more recent study because they're now getting data from all of these resorts in a compilate in this way. So. And I think it's fair to say that our numbers are not as big as some of these resorts in a compilate in this way. And I think it's fair to say that our numbers are not as big as some of these other resorts, but the fact that we're double digits every single month is very telling and very encouraging if we continue this trend. John, did you ever hand up for potential? He was moving the iPod screen. It was before that, just before I saw his head scratching his head Thank you Try little both both of us on this one If you've been reading the newspapers recently you could have read that ski magazine snowmasses now port in the resort rankings and snowmasses now forth in the resort rankings and the top overall resort transworld and skier visits. Let me talk to that a little bit ski magazine. It's encouraging us to prove the number four. We come behind Deer Valley, Bale and Whistler in that survey and And the ski magazine, of course, is a slightly older demographic average age of their readers or reader survey is around 45 years old. So it's like the older traveler. Transworld is the number one snowboarding magazine in the world by far. And this is the third year that Transworld is ranked so mass number one resort. And then there's individual rankings for the park and pipe. That's what I think. So very encouraging. Within the Scheme magazine survey this year, one of the subcategories is family programming. The snowmass was number one in the winter family programming. Schemeer visits for last winter for snowmass, 737,000. That was up 1.6 percent prior year, which was very close to flat to the overall Aspen skiing company performance, which was 1.7 percent. So although we didn't see a big jump in skier days, once again, we're encouraged that the trend is at least upwards a little slower than we like to see, but coming along. And as we look ahead for, it's not in this report, it's advanced bookings because those are just forecasts, but the forecast so far this one just went her encouraging. So positive. And what's positive about those two superlatives, if you will, is that they speak to our different audiences. We have families and empty nesters and they're in that top bucket so we get to tell them that message. Then we also have the young aggressives that are so important because their future, all the audiences need to be there in the trans world. We'll pop that bug on everything that talks to that audience so they know it's the best here. And the bottom one just speaks to LA Times and other papers, media recognizing that our summer's here. We have free music. They're not necessarily talking specifically about Thursday night concerts to the audiences, but the message is there's a lot of free activities here and we've got one of the best scenes. So media is very important with events. Very good. One of the things, one of the measurements that we look at is we as Susan to put down every week in the summertime with a graph against events and activities that are taking place in snowmast. And as you can see, where's the top divot? The red line is 2011. That's 2011. The occupancy percentage, they're 80% percent. That's first and second priority, blue lines, prior year occupancy. It's easy to look at the center line. There's zero line you can see black bars above that zero line. That's an improvement over prior year in occupancy. By the day and I think below the line is a decline versus prior year. So this is a good view of the summer. This is basically made and you can see all the flip-up are all the different spikes around the events and improvements year over year. So I think that's right there. Right there. This is the forecast. So what does that mean under the 7-4-JS. It's a combination of events. It's not any one thing. Traditionally, the Fourth of July weekend is not very busy for us. And that's why we put this new event on that weekend, which did just, OK, action not very well for them at all. But for us, Fourth of July weekend, plus EMU plus jazz has been snowmass in Aspen, the combination of the three gave us the second highest occupancy of the summer compared to other event weekends. And the slide also speaks to both our desire to create and Fred, you're trying to say this too, and we hear you. Long-term program. I said this chart also speaks to something that you're fond of saying and we hear you. We need to work really hard to be able to get long-term stays. And at the same time, we need to balance it with today's reality. People are somewhere out of jobs. They're time in poverish. They've got kids to go to soccer games and such. So there is a reality of behaviors that a lot of people just travel on weekends. And we want to get them to. So the right balance of the weekend travelers. There's a group 30% of Americans, recent statistic, take speed vacations. From the day they start planning to when their vacation is over, the six days. So if we can get them and the family campers and in the whole mix to fill up the summer much stronger, that would be the goal. So question then. You can obviously see where the holes are in the summer, quite graphically there. You focus on that as your board and say, how are we going to address these holes and specifically target them? Or are you just continuing to push the events that are pushing them to meet a lot? That's a great question. And what I didn't include is an image of what we looked at last winter. As we put out the occupancy statistics for the winter, we could see the shift because of Carnival in Brazil. We also saw a drop in occupancy for the month of a time period in March. And we worked with the Aspen Skiing Company, Stey Aspen Snowmass, to create the Kitski Free Promotion. So we very much use this as a dynamic tool to help us plan. This was a look backward in the winter time. We're looking forward to see. So if we see a dip, we would look at the first week in December and see a dip where we had the Kellogg Ski Group last year. and our occupancy, we didn't replace that for the winter of a lot of it. That's a good tool right there. I get a stab to that. I think that the word over the years is very much used this occupancy chart to look at need periods. And for long-range planning, which are most events are long-range, you know, you try to look at the calendar. Can you stretch, you know, the summer or start a little earlier, go a little later? That's where chili pepper and, of course, the balloon fast on the shoulders of the season are very specifically calendar to try and stretch the season. What this chart can't, you can't do with it is respond quickly because by the time you get a snapshot of the holes in a forecast for that season alone, you've got a month or two to react. So you can't do an event, but you can do certainly marketing specials and try to plug in those holes and the board and the staff do that. And as you'll see, when we get through the recommendations of the FAB, one of the recommendations is to keep money. Certain percentage of our budget for next summer set that aside. So when we start to see these downturns, we can target specific dollars with a specific program to try to move occupancy. $5.00 with a specific program to try to move occupancy. What, just could you speak to the spikes after Labor Day? And what were those three spikes that we see? Sure, that's pacing. So that timeframe hasn't happened yet. We won't know how it lands for another month. We don't know what that is. Oh, actually, we do, we won't have October. We want to have October. Sorry. What are we had groups? We had relay. That is in 2011 though. the right to come in. Pacing 2011. So now that we have the new report, you're right, David. It just came in. So JS Labor Day actually landed 92% on Saturday and 90% on Sunday. And we'll see how. So the blue line is last year's actual. You're right, Fred. That's last year's actual. This is the pace. So there's a there's fill in. So what we don't have on this chart is how it filled in and how it might cut off or not. And we'll know what the group side, what we don't know is social business, because this is a time frame where people wait to see what the weather is like, because honestly it's snowed at wine fest in the past, and they don't have to make their decision sooner. Susan. To give greater detail, when we can see a spike where we put that you can see the top of the chart. Here there was a car show and what was will in this medicine group so as we drill down in here. If it doesn't become apparent we ask some more questions. Was there a specific conference in? Was it chalk it up? Was it October Fest? Was there an event and activity? Was there some kind of a promotion that we worked with the town, worked with the properties on? It was an October Fest. Yeah. Jason, when you pointed this out, it's really interesting to see what you can pick out of these charts. But what you see is the swing and occupancy in September weekends. So these are Saturday nights. These are the lines of the Saturday nights. So it's weekend spikes in September. Far more dramatically, of course, than when you see here where the occupancy spikes are 10 to 20% not. Like here, it's about 40 percent spikes. So clearly, you know, the ups and downs in September are hard to handle. And those were weddings last year, I believe, for the most part. Susan, and whoever wants to respond, as you look at the events, and you see kind of a dip after ice age and the email and then you go what is it two weekends with we might have had something but nothing is on your calendar wouldn't that be the periods that you would really want to do some things more events more events and maybe a longer stay the promotions are all summer long by two meaning get to Lodging nights and get 50 $50 gift cards so that is promoted all summer long But yeah, those are events and that weekend in between Fourth of July and culinary that's one where if we did something additional And we were working in conjunction with the group department as well to fill in these spikes with some conferences. One other question. Have you ever, you've probably done this pretty impressive with all the detail we've got up here. Do you ever overlay what's going on in Aspen with the occupancy here to see if their spillover come? We should say spillover going to Aspen but spillover coming this way based on their events. Yes, it goes both ways. You want to talk about the silver trees, a really good example of that. Because you know, even though we see this huge occupancy, I see these huge occupancy swings, I'm going well, you know, what was going on in Aspen as well. Well, historically, if Aspen has a slow 4th of July, it affects snowmass and if Aspen is doing very well over the 4th, and Bill Thompson, which might be able to comment on this, then snowmass starts to do well. We have not done that in the past, but I think it's a great idea if there's something like the volleyball tournament or marker fast, because we do snowmast does get reservations for all of those events. And we do get the S-PEN report too, and we always look at it because if we see that they're up at 90%, we're up that weekend too. We've probably got some of that business from Aspen. Peter Moore? I'm marking the other thing that this chart has had the committee really begin to talk about is are there other types of events that have longer shelf and other words, is there something that we could do that would bring people in week after week after week rather than a spike here, a spike here, a spike? I think that's really a big opportunity for us going forward. Okay. Bob? Are financial gurus. Oh my God. One of the, as we were going through our conversations both with Council and with the FAB, we need to come up with a measurement that makes sense to begin to look at an ROI and not only look at occupancy but look at total spend for an attendee here or an occupancy point. What does that really mean to give you more depth as we're going through analyzing our numbers? And Bob, who worked on this a great deal of time, I thought he'd be the best one to explain. Nice that Bob knows that. Nice that Bob knows that. If you sort of take a look at what we already actually have in our current reporting system and for the moment you set aside the possibility of future daily sales tax, which has been a lot of discussion about. I guess the first thing I'd like to say is that daily sales tax has been something this board would like to have had all along, but agreed with our town staff colleagues when they said it was very difficult. And we, I think, were comfortable that we could make informed decisions without pressing that issue any further. If anyone wants to press it, this board is happy to have that happen. It just wasn't something that we thought we would press. And I thought, you know, it would probably keep peace in the village better if you got to a point you didn't need to press. But that's not for me or our board to decide either. So I said, what do you know? You know acual occupancy. You just looked at a whole chart of little black things up and little not black things down and blues last year and reds this year and there you go, day by day we know. We know the. And actually, we can also agree that we have a lot of data out there, and you saw high points and low points, and we can get a baseline. The baseline is agreeing what would have happened if we didn't do the thing we're trying to measure the effect up. That is hard work, but it's work that people do all the time when they get serious about comparative economics. Right? It's not easy. So if you've got actual occupancy and you have a baseline and describe what would have happened if the thing you were trying to measure hadn't been put into effect, then you have incremental occupancy. Occupancy that you believe was essentially caused by the thing whose effect you're trying to measure. So if you know the hotbed based in the village, right, then you have an incremental occupancy of 10% as an example. We have 1,800 hotbeds in the village now. We added 265 with base village et cetera, et cetera, on top of 1603, the baseline numbers that you would have seen in your younger days, Jason. We got 1,800 ish, right? 10% of 1,800 is 180 room nights, right? So, the 180 room nights in the summer, that's where this $100, this summer more like $110 or $12 average daily rate comes into effect. Every time we have an average incremental room night, we have an average incremental income of the ADR, it's 110 bucks. Let's keep it simple. It's 100 bucks. Right? So that means that $100 times 180, that was the incremental lodging revenue impact. The real tricky deal without average, without the daily sales tax was yeah, okay, but how about everybody else in the village? Launching only is about 45% of the total revenues if you look at it. And I was surprised that it's about the same and winner as it is in the summer. But let's just use 45%. So 55% of the revenues upon which we collect tax and upon what your businesses thrive is not launching. It's food leverage, retail, and entertainment. And if you just look through the numbers, you can actually, pretty simple arithmetic, see for every lodging dollar, how many of those other dollars show up? Now, I sat at home and did this on the back of a envelope. So I don't want to use my number. But it fits that 45,55 distribution in that a few more dollars of non-logging show up every time you get a dollar of lodging. So if I can figure out how many dollars of lodging, which I just did, was my 10% increase times 580 units, times 100 bucks a night, it's, you know, whatever that is, times the average number of non-logging dollars that the sales tax data already tells us comes along with each one of those lodging dollars. I can add out the lodging dollars that I know. I can add out the non-logging dollars that I've just estimated pretty hard data as an estimate. And I know that if I put those two together, I know the incremental dollars that have come to the lodging industry, the food beverage, the retailers, and the entertainment folks. And I know the incremental dollars, if I'm willing to accept this as an analytic approach, I could say roughly roughly, that's what we got for it plus the town gets 6.7% of those dollars. Now they get 7.9% if it's a lodge because they get to 2.4% at center but remember it's 45-55% so when you average that all out of every dollar no matter whether it comes from lodging or not lodging, on average the town gets about 6.7%. So if I compare the total incremental dollars with or without the town tax, that's for somebody else to decide, to the net cost for the event of the program, which Susan knows the net cost and the board looks at it all the time, then and I have a target. I say if all those dollars come back and they break even against my cost, I haven't taken any credit for brand awareness for the fact that we mentioned snowmats, snowmats, etc., etc., etc., then that's okay. Or if I say no, there's some other target. So we would need to accept this as a sort of analytic concept and believe the existing data will allow us to use this with reasonable validity. And then we can say, oh, OK, then what would our target be? But this is a tool. And I think I've discussed this for a couple of you briefly. And I wouldn't call it return on investment. But I'm just being picky. I call it return on investment, but I'm just being picky. I call it return on expenditure. All ROI is sort of when businesses make major capital investments, they depreciate over years and all that. But most of these dollars that we be looking at, as you know, are primarily expense. They're just expenditures at one time. And actually for me, I guess I'm okay with this. I was just going to ask, what's the methodology for determining the baseline? The methodology for determining the baseline is to go back and look at all that data that you were just seeing across a period or historic periods. And so, for instance, in the case of in June, what's the average June occupancy? Well, this year, the average June occupancy was 25%. And that included the first week of June and the last week of June. So that kind of gets averaged out a bit, right? Because we know the last week of June is going to be higher. And the first week of June is going to be lower. So to some extent, Jason, one has to come to a an economic gentleman's agreement when you get into the notion of baseline. But from my past experience businesses do it all the time. But you would certainly, I would certainly look at, you know, comparable periods. And there was, I wouldn't pick a baseline for summer. Because I know July is different in August and June and that sort of thing. So you would have to agree a baseline. And you would rebase each year? Well I would review it each year yeah. Just to be clear for the council this is a response to one of the FAB recommendations which was looking at page 26, and then you see a bunch of data sheets for each event. How do you compare results against the baseline, and this was a response? It was a kind of a response and an attempt to sort of perhaps enhance it a bit. I think it makes. Rick, by saying we couldn't use lodgingging and that's what the FAB found they could hang their hats on. And I think that's right. It was this reaching out to see if we couldn't include the non-logging portions of our villages. Well, I recall from the early days of marketing one of the things we tried to do, and you see it in the structure of the board by the seats for each of the industries was to make sure everybody felt they had a seat at the table. So I was always concerned about theme psychology if our metric for return on expenditure was only lodging based. It starts with lodging, and that's the firmest part, because we got daily occupancy. So we know every day and then we go and we have to do a little extrapolation when it comes to getting the non-logging component. So these are the numbers that sort of help you decide after a three year period whether this event makes sense to continue investing in or is it, you know, all these figures come in. Yes, I would. Well, I would always argue, for instance, my view is that the second chapter of the stakeholder report that you looked at in title results, I would call that metrics. Because I think what you've seen this afternoon, for me, those are the metrics. You're on your comparison for annual, for seasonal comparison to competitive resort. We agree the competitive set is appropriate. So we're comparing it to others. I mean, I think you've got about five or so things that I would call metrics. And I'd say that would be the format that we would agree. The establishing bylaws say that we will report to you quarterly and that format will be agreed. And I would suggest that if you would like a metric-based format, for instance, these four, five, or six, whatever, out of all of them or most of them, I would say most of them, if not all of them. And I would say that you would look at this last one we talked about for particular programs and events. Hey, so Bob, just a question for you. So if you use the return on expenditure model, which to me makes some sense. Some sense. Have you run it and tested the events for this last summer? Against this board has not the board has not seen the outcome. So they haven't been prejudiced by a peak under the covers as to what the outcome would be. There will be some of these that would probably not chin the bar. And I would suggest that persons should not live by one metric alone. And therefore, there may be some that wouldn't chin the bar, unless you set the bar pretty low. And there be some that would chin the bar, even if you set it fairly high. And I think we all know the one most likely not to chin theendon bar. And I think it's also to be honest with you, the one least likely to be changed. But you we've discussed in past years and changing the nights and all bunch of different things. Yeah, I mean exactly. So I would say anytime, you know, in other words, you would like to know the outcome of this analysis if you agree it's a good one, but it wouldn't necessarily say, okay, you know, if it isn't covering its costs, it's gone. So as we develop that balance scorecard, this would be one of the metrics. One of the metrics. Well, with all due respect, Bob, none of these events cover their costs. They're all loss leaders. I mean, your expense overreview would, damn, there are every one of these things, is reasonably significant. And as I understand it, you don't, the numbers in your individual event analysis don't include the marketing dollars that are applied to that event. Am I correct in that? They're listed in each sheet. It shows you the promotional investment. It's separated out because it's not just the event in the promotion. If you promote chili pepper, you're also promoting by 2 get 50 or whatever specials are going on. Okay. I don't know the answer to your question because I, I on purpose, haven't run all the events through here to make sure that I wasn't creating metric which would shoot my favorite event in the foot. I'm a guest I'm actually I don't know. Peter Moore. Two things. Bill back to your question. One of the things that this approach gives us is to look at the momentum of an event. Sometimes if we're starting something new, they'll take two or three years to get some real momentum and build an audience for and stuff like that. On the other hand, we've seen some that immediately are going in this direction so we can get out of them quickly. But I think that's another valuable part of this. But I think going back to the issue of, if the goal is to have every single event to make a profit or pay for itself, then we have to approach things in a very different fashion. Okay. Okay. Fred? Well, for example, and I'm looking at your presentation. A page? Starting on page 41. This would be in the Council Pack. In the Council Pack, your expense for Chile, for Chile Brufes is $230,000. Your revenue is $166,000, and you've got a net expense of $64. So it's a loss in terms of just revenue versus expense. See. I see. May I ask a question? I want you to just sit. Oh. Oh. In the Snowmass Culinary Arts Festival, your revenue is $22,000. Your expenses are $80,000. So having said all that, because every one of these is a loss leader I mean that's not the point but you guys aren't in the business of making money I mean I didn't think that's why you were doing it So I took some of this with the greatest saw but you're clearly just on an internal basis. You're losing money on these things Okay, Fred Marky has the floor. You're not the chair here. I'm not going to speak but I thought I was stepping on the toes. You can yield the floor but you can't rain. Fred, when you look at the expense and revenue and the net expense, and yes, I could look at this and black and white as a business might and say, oh, I just lost money on that event. But have you run this through the formula, the Bob Purvis signature formula here? And if the answer to that is no, and we don't have all the detail of the occupancy sales tax, et cetera, that's generated, you can't say, well, that's a loss. I'm just talking internally. Well, see. That's the headache we have here for years. Well, OK. Fred, as you know, I was a marketer. And one of the things I never had an ember in our, I'm not sure. And one of the things I never had to do was to generate a P&L from my marketing department internally within the company for whom I was marketing. So if you see down there on that last bullet point, total net cost. And the total net cost for chili pepper brewfests, whatever you just said. And what we're saying is, OK, we understand that revenues at the event versus cost expenditures on behalf of the event are negative. And that's the net investment in marketing or net investment in that special event. This ROI tool, which my recollection is you are a great proponent of the notion to have such a thing, okay, is not an internal to the town or the town's marketing department measure, it's a village as a whole. And if you would buy by absolutely agree with me. So therefore, I would argue that if the average of June was 25%, occupancy. And the Saturday night of Jelly Pepper was 30. Now Friday was 30. And the Saturday was 45. That you had a 5% incremental occupancy boost on Friday and a 20% incremental occupancy boost on sanity and I would take 25% time 1800 hotbed units and I'd get 450 room nights and I'm multiply that times a hundred bucks and I get $45,000 and if I was doing it, I would take $1.30 for the amount of non-logging that a company had each lodging dollar. But I don't want to enshrine that number. But if I had to do it right now, you're going to shoot my dog, I'd say $3.30. And if I took 1.3 times $45,000 and I'd get 60, if I added $45,60, I'd get $65,000, I'd get $60,000, if I added $45,000, $60,000, I'd get $105. So the benefit to the village before 6.7% sales tax would be $105,000, which is bigger than the loss net cost that you just represent. Bob, you guys are not in the business of making money. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no I'm jumping my gun here because I got a whole big log presentation for you guys. But if you agree that the average occupancy rate in the summertime by your own numbers is somewhere between 25 and 35%. With nothing going on. So you're spending this money on chili brew fest and Friday night, according to your figures, the occupancy rate was 33%, and Saturday night was 45%. Okay, so does that 10% increase over your average, move the needle enough to justify the event? And that's the issue I would deal with. And the answer to that question is yes. Yes, yes. Okay. I mean, if you buy, if you buy the return on expenditure indicator, that we have created in response to what we thought was council's request and enhanced and built upon the FAB's work, if you buy that as a analytically appropriate measuring tool, the answer is yes. Well, I think it makes a lot of sense. And then each year you look at that 25% or the 30% you're going to get a rebasing every year. If it goes down, you'd say, hmm, we have a little problem here. So I don't think you can, if we went back over the last two years to see if that 25% is up from 22%. You've got the data. Yep, that makes sense. So. Question about whether that makes sense. When you see the spike graph, weekends where we typically have most of our events tend to be on average higher occupancies. Does it make sense to take the average monthly averaged over the entire month versus average based on the weekend days? I don't know that. And like I said, what you see up there on the slide is essentially a formula. And it says you need to agree things like you're just asking. And does it make sense to take a month average to see the impact of a first week in June event when the last week in June is included in the month average? Does that sort of come out in the wash between the weekend effect you're talking about in the early June late June effect? That, I mean, you just need to agree a baseline. And I guess, to be honest with you, we were trying to avoid picking the baseline for a June event here this evening just to say okay you need to recognize if you want to use this approach you got to answer those questions. Isn't the baseline Bob a diminishing factor because you're going to have a solid baseline as yours go by and you're not going to have to solid baseline as years go by. And you're not going to have to have, I mean, you got to start somewhere. So that's why you're proposing database. The gentleman's agreement as to the baseline. You have kind of represents shown here that you would say to start with you to use the monthly average for whatever month it is. But as you go forward, you're going to be able to do, you're going to have the repeat weekend. I mean you're going to have the same weekend to compare year in and year out. And then I think Peter said or maybe it was Markey, when you get to a dive for a weekend, there's other factors that are in that. I mean, it's talent. It's weather. Weather? And so, but that baseline, it will be established more firmly with a longer period of information. Yeah, and that's the same reason why the hydrogen banister couldn't win a mile race today. same reason why Roger Bannister can win a mile race today You've got you've told me five or six years worth of M M trips statistics do you not Can't you go back and start from there Will want that give you a long enough history to see what's going on? Sure, we'll just have to manipulate it because the events do move Different weekends on? Sure. We'll just have to manipulate it because the events do move different weekends. Well, you can do that manually for sure. So you can have a pretty good baseline right now. So technically, in terms of, I think personal ball, we need to agree on the metric because it makes no sense to do all this analytical work. And then we say, well, that didn't work out. So what's the next great child? But Bob, was your notion put forward to FAB as well? Not the last part. We set the work that the FAB did. And that, I think, this notion evolved during last week. Yeah, to be clear, that FAB's final meeting was, and Rick Griffin is here. I see. Well, let's go finish up with what you guys want to do. But their meeting was Monday in the marketing board. Okay. That's what's pretty good. This was an evolving thing. It started. It started evolving when the marketing FAB first met. We went from that meeting, which was Lauderdale, here's us, this kind of stuff. And here's us FAB, and yeah, that. So then we went from there to actually trying to have some goals that we're trying to accomplish and some way to do some of these measurements. That being the case, everybody dug in. And what surprised me was that after we had gotten a lot of this stuff together, because they had another meeting after us, they actually dug it into another level that we had not gotten to, because it was really their board that had to do it. But they did it because they wanted to do that. And it wasn't a matter of stopping at the report. It was a matter of taking that report the next step and trying to come up with information. And that's- So one of the decisions we have to make tonight, really, does it seem to make sense and run some numbers? And we ought to come back on that one. Yeah. Let's go on your report, guys. And the wall. Yeah, let's go on your report guys and we'll I love a goals we discuss this in our most recent board meeting that the goal for the 2012 season as you can see is increased occupancy 3%, and increased sales tax revenue 3%, and then group sales bookings coming up with a measurement for that as well, and that is ongoing. We have a meeting with the, we now, John Quickly, lodging guy, as a member of the town of Snowmass and Snowmass lodging association to discuss what is the measurement for group because we're both organizations lodging and the town of Snowmass are focused on coming up with an equitable, measurable group sales effort. And so you know that group sales work is done. Fred's completed a really good plan that the board, the FAB, accepted, but it needs to be vetted with the lab is one more time to make sure that everybody is in sync with it. One of the conversations, our conversation we have with FAB is, again, suggested increasing these numbers and the marketing board will be working on a what's called a stretch goal for staff. So we have a goal that we can budget on and then we'll have a goal that we can incentivize on a stretch goal which will be higher. What is the industry telling this right now? The world has changed. What do we do? Yeah, keep the industry told us that our meeting. You've been regards to goals for the coming year? Yeah, 3%. You know, I think that that's a great question because, you know, we've seen this call it slow crawl out of the recession. And I would actually say this past summer here in Sonoma, I know other places is surprised a lot of people at the strength of the growth. So I know in our business and other ski resorts there being a little bit conservative, saying if we can get to a 3% growth rate, or we'd be okay with that this year. You know, it's not many years that I would say that's a stretch target for performance, but because, you know, for us, for example, the Aspen skiing company, we've seen growth in, you know, 1.6%, 1.7%, maybe 2%. So we can see volume growth of visitors at the 3% level, we'd be happy with that for this coming winter, for example. I can't speak for our other businesses, but we're seeing that because with, call it the storm clouds on the horizon, you know, whether it be Greek debt or, you know, the latest spasm in Wall Street, it's, we're all kind of looking to see when the advanced booking trend might be affected by these world happenings. And we have not yet seen it. So when we look at advanced bookings, for example, for the coming winter, they're still looking very solid. So we have not yet seen the fear negative effects. That answers your question. So some of these advanced bookings for winter are international markets, Brazil, Australia, with the currency attractive to come here. Martin, this is a personal anecdote, but I think it's representative of how we may have to change our approach. I have spent a lot of my time in the last four or five years. It's just called on Wall Street Consulting. And now increasing spending time in Silicon Valley. Totally different points of view. Wall Street is very constrained, very conservative. And I'm telling you, Silicon Valley is as hot now as it's ever been. And so part of our thing, our challenge is if we haven't tapped into that potential part that segment of, that's a geographic segment, it's also I think a mental segment because there's a much more positive attitude there than there is on these coasts. So that's going to be an interesting balancing act. So it's tough because we look at the general economic numbers as David mentioned, but there are pockets out there that if we're really good and precise in how we go after them, I think we can benefit from that. Rick, on the FAB side, the note bottom suggesting increasing. Where did you come up with them? Why were you thinking about increasing the numbers from what they gave you? What you're thinking about increasing the numbers from what they gave you? Yeah, we were, that's it. I'm just trying to choose the words here, but yeah, there's, there's, do you, do you have the goal at the lowest common denominator at the median, or do you shoot for a high goal and therefore you might fail by not reaching that high goal but you get actually a higher goal. You know, then you would have had you been one of these other ones. And that's kind of where the discussions went back and forth. And there's a number of people if AB that felt strongly enough about let's set the goals high and try to attain them if we don't, we don't, but let's try. But I guess, you know, my experience has been when you set the numbers high and you don't make them, then there's got to be a reason the numbers didn't get there and you start looking for fall people or other things to market, you know, say, well, you didn't get that number, so we need to make a change. It's okay. John and I decided that you could can both of us if you didn't get those numbers. No, thank you. I'm not a supporter of, I voice, I believe, internally, a stretch number is great, but when we put numbers out there to the public, we ought to be realistic in our expectations. Yeah. Can I just add that? Can I add that recently? I don't want to quote numbers exactly because they're not embedded in my mind, but lodging magazine for different segments of lodging was in the range of 1.5 percent for next year to 4.5% based on economy and luxury in various markets. And I think that the middle range, you know, typically over the last couple of years, the luxury market actually was doing the best, but they're forecasting next year for the level right below luxury to perform better in luxury. And I think that's an indication of the people looking for a bargain a little bit, and not spending money as freely as they had been. Yeah, and on FAB, when you're talking about FAB, you have to start thinking about when you said high-level goals, OK? You're talking about sales tax. No, not necessarily. You're also talking about real estate transfer tax. You're also talking about amping up a certain department. You're talking about new equipment over here. So I mean, these goals, they keep they morph budget to budget department to department. And you sort of have to try to intertwine everything together and that's kind of Your job What's the underlying assumption for sales tax increase in the general fund? From this year to next yeah Flat Now it's based on a revised number from this year But it's based on a revised number from this year, but it's flat. I think there was a point to it was made by Howard Gross, and I think I'll go from the rest of the FAV. This is an important slide to have a discussion about and to revisit. And I think the other, I know once Rick gets his chance to kind of convey those recommendations, it was a very constructive recommendation that these two boards continue to interact and talk about the metric and the goal and the achievement around the goal. But particularly for the council in this board, take a tough look at these numbers and then it's a point of discussion as you move forward. Okay. I'm just going to have more data to the confusion about forecasting. I just called up here because this is all part of the M-Trip report. There's something called the Conor Metrics and these are things that a lot of people look at. But you hear about consumer confidence. Well, I think if you follow the news, the consumer confidence index has gone down for seven months in a row. It's now at the lowest level it's been since early 2009. So you've got consumer confidence to call it East Coast attitude, right? Right now. Then we've got another one which business people, or maybe it might be familiar with, is it's LEI. It's a leading economic indicators index. So that index has been going steadily up since that same period. So we've got these divergent indicators out there. So LEI, which takes into account industrial production and currency and balance the trade deficits and surplus, those kinds of things in addition to consumer confidence is looking up. So we're balancing a negative consumer confidence with frankly raw economic data that actually is actually encouraging. So it's really difficult to pick where to go from that, because the one is negating the other. I know it's OK. Moving on. This is a packet. We've already just free-packed the one. We're meeting with FAB. We've just discussed changing the Yachimbatsi comparisons. And I mentioned this earlier dropping it from 14 to 6 competitive resorts and doing it by season. We're in the process of doing that. Adjust for inflation as we present our statistics. It was requested that we put a footnote regarding inflation and we will do that. We're creating an investment tool to measure campaigns by season, Bob. And the board has talked about that, so we're moving forward on that. Applying that to the summer events, and we just had a brief presentation on how that would work for one event. Thank you you Bob. Measurement of group sales, Fred presented the group sales thoughts and there was agreement. There was one dissenting member of the FAB who wanted much greater reliance on what is booked. And I assured David that I would take that to the next lodging meeting and present that his point of view regarding that. It was all we also had a conversation in our marketing meeting and in FAB. And I think someone here mentioned it tonight that March and is such a heavy month of revenue for the community that we, because there's always been conversations or in the background saying, the ski company will take care of winter. You guys need to focus in on summer. And we had a discussion showing that our efforts in winter are very important. And the ski company can't carry that water along. And lastly, and I mentioned this already, creating a greater, not reserved, but an unappropriated balance. And Susan is in the process of working. greater, not reserved, but an unappropriated balance. And Susan is in the process of working. That's what we will have that, especially for the summer of 12, with the silvetry and the law would be enclosed. We would shift some of our dollars looking at perhaps doing something a little differently. We have some groups coming in next summer that could be that look very good to fill up the hotel product. We might be tweaking some marketing efforts specifically for condominiums or this upcoming summer if these two or three conferences book they're ten week two well one is already booked one ten week conference and we're trying to finalize the second two week conference. So you know the conference center will be open starting in June and we're working with this group to take care of their meeting needs. Very good. Director anything from the previous one you said about winter. FAB was very strong about, we need to look at gross dollars. That basically drives the budget for sales tax. That drives the government and its expenses and it's good to have on the table at all times plan and an operation and you're moving forward to help some expand grow and be better. But you don't do it at the cost of winter because winter we are a ski resort and that ski resort is where we're going to make our money and if we want to live and die by summer I'm going to opt for winter. Let's go into that if we can't a little bit more because I know that has been a discussion point that a lot of people bring to us and say look you know we've got a great mountain out there and you know why do we need to put any money towards it but it looks like you know we've got a great mountain out there, and why do we need to put any money towards that? But it looks like we've got a number of areas in my mind that we invest in because it is the time of year that we make the most money on our investment. With airlines doing their things, we're trying to get people in here, the summertime market, I personally see as a market that's a drive market. We're not going to get the people who have spent the dollars. Our rooms are less expensive in snowmass than they are. And let's say, glum what I guess for the summertime out here. So why can't we market ourselves in the summer and say, hey, come to the Rolling Fort Valley, but stay in snowmass, you'll get more bang for your buck. You'll be more bold in that area maybe. So you know, what is it that anything different than I can tell people who say, look, you know, we're wasting our money in the winter. It's there. They're going to come no matter what. Why should we invest in that? Why should we be a partnership with this key company and the law. And time for lodges and other things. Since I'm from the bookkeeper side of the committees, it's pretty evident when you stop and think about it. You know, your rate for a lodging room is three times what it is in the winter time than what it is in the summertime. Your number of restaurants are, you know, they're at least double because you're also collecting sales tax from all of the restaurants that are on the mountain. You've got a lot of other sales of other equipment that's used for winter sports and stuff that you can't replace with summer sales for shorts and t-shirts. So therefore, I mean, you start looking at the whole, the whole enchilada, so to speak, of what is out there. If you have a higher base for your percentage of sales tax to go against, and you have more things to sell, and you have greater numbers of people here, then we need to focus on this because it's key companies job to focus on selling their mountain. They've got a crown jewel in that mountain called Aspen. That doesn't mean that snowman gets the shorts on this, but it does mean that they have to spread money around to four different, four different items versus focus on one. And we as a group focus on one. And I think that's where the importance really comes in. Greater detail that the FAB discussed was moving an occupancy percentage in the winter 5% is similar to moving it, it was it 15 or 20 percent in the summer. So the focus, so the focus on winter driving the needle and winter time moving up occupancies, specifically personnel masks, the Aspen skiing company gives us some tools, but we have to get the message into the marketplace. And that's why to respond to some of these folks, you still need vitality in the summertime and you're right, it is a short-term booking window for the summertime and it is very much a drive market. Bob? There's a perspective, or there's more than one perspective, as Rick pointed out, the FAB is sort of the accounting people that vises you folks all across the town's budgeting. The marketing and special events, folks in group sales, they have a somewhat different perspective. And actually the marketing is a bit different than the special events. They actually have to get the stage there and turn the lights on and worry about whether Fannie Hill's going to be de-ordered by the start of the concerts and the group sales and Fred and those guys, they haven't held different. They're actually in the sales business. I mean, they're hardcore sales people as I just did. And then we have individual lodges and individual restaurants and individual retailers and shops. And they look at the world through a different set of glasses. They look at through the lenses of their own glasses. And when you look at 2006, and those numbers up there and we go, wow, that was nice. We look at 2010, the fact of the matter is the total village revenues, excluding lodging, or up 1% over that four-year period, before the recession and after the recession. But the work that the FAB did, and particularly financed, these wonderful nodal analysis work, which is maybe a hard work, I know, and not fun, but you guys do it really well. It said that the average dollar per square foot, least went down in 2009 to $270 some dollars to square foot. Now how could that be in a village where the total non-logging revenues went up 1%? Well I think not everybody agrees, but I think it's good old delusion, in fact, that came from how base village stopped. We added 70% of the commercial anticipated in base village and only 30 to 35% and not quite because we had half the vice worry that got stuck for a while. It was built, but they just couldn't pass out keys. keys, right? So I think we, you know, sort of, you know, had an imbalance created. Now, to be quite honest with you, that imbalance was created for two reasons. Number one, a great recession came when it did. But the other thing was, we as a community, by your predecessors, agreed a construction management plan that said in that day of 2008, 2009, that's where we're going to be, 7035. It wasn't because somebody didn't do what the plan said they were supposed to do. It's because they were right on target and the great recession surprised us. So those sort of two reasons came in there. And I think therefore when we sit here and say, well, you know, the numbers are going up and they're going back up, they're wherever, and Fred says they're not high enough and we agree we want them to be higher. But you know, we were happier in the neighborhood of those numbers before than we are now, but that's because individually I think we've had this delusion effect because of the stall out of base village with more commercial added than the logic needed to support it. And those restaurant tours and merchants and retailers, and I think they're right. Because if you just look at those productivity numbers and dollars per square foot of revenue and they go from over 300 to back down below 300, hey, you know, those last few dollars are the ones that end up making the whole bottom line. Because the rest of it goes to pay the staff and pay utilities and all that. I think we have sort of two different perspectives around town and actually I think they're both right. Okay. Johnny, anything else with you guys? Because I do want to go to a good dialogue here and we'll let Fred. I'm going to just take issue with something you said right at the outset Bob. If all of you have a different lens, we're in real trouble. Because according to the code, marketing, group sales, and special events has one job and one purpose only to promote tourism and snowmass. So if you're not looking at that as your goal, there's something wrong. And so that troubles me. Okay. Let me start off by saying that I think this report is excellent. I think you all have done a terrific job. I think it is thoughtful. I think it is thoughtful. I think it is thorough. And I think it is soul searching, all of which you needed to do. And I commend you for it. It's well done. And that's about as good as it gets. No. I do. I do. Actually what I have, and I I spent a fair amount of time looking at this and thinking about it. I have some thoughts that I hope will help you and I have some constructive criticism that I hope will help you. In general, let me say what I appreciate is your candor. I think you're coming out and saying and admitting your two faults. Number one, your failure to communicate effectively with your constituency. And number two, your failure to have a good quality summer marketing program for tourism is absolutely right. I think you do fine in the winter. I think you devote sufficient resources. I think you do fine in the winter. I think you devote sufficient resources. I think you will continue to improve it. But those are your two faults. Those are the things that I've heard about marketing and group sales since I started running for office and being on council. There's a lack on the part of your constituents, which are the large owners, the retailers, the restaurant tours. There's a certain lack of trust. There's a certain feeling that we don't know what's going on. They don't talk to us. We don't talk to them. And I know that through your packet, you have in your packet you indicated that you're going to be having conferences with them. You're going to be having regular meetings with them. They are your constituency. Those are the people you need to make happy. Put people in lodges, put people in restaurants. That's your job. So to be at odds with them, it seems to me to go against your very mission and what you're supposed to be doing. So I'm glad that you've recognized that, and I'm going to take steps to cure it. So I'm glad that you've recognized that, and are going to take steps to cure it. But I really want to focus on summer. And we talked a little bit about it in the events. And you have, I think your presentation here is good. You tell us how much it's been, how much it comes in, how much it moves the needle. And I guess all I would say, and in a number of instances you say, and then you talk about what should we be doing, and in a number of instances you say, to be determined. And I assume that's going to come as you look at your metrics and how much you're moving the needle, because the drill is moving the needle, moving the occupancy needle. I mean, that's why you're moving the needle, because the drill is moving the needle, moving the occupancy needle. I mean, that's why you're running these things. I know Susan you say it's advertising and it's marketing, but I think it's to get people to come here. That's why you're running those events. And you know, you have done the analysis, I think, quite properly here. And again, as I say, you lose money on almost every one of these things, but that's fine if you move the needle significantly. And that's the analysis you'll have to do and you'll come up with the right thing, I trust. Okay, and I thank you for responding to the FAB, and I thank you for responding to me. And I now want to go to one of your responses. All right. All right. I had asked you what you spend 500 and What you spend $500 and, I'm sorry, no, now your budget is now $725,000 on summer marketing. And you have given me a chart here now, obviously I don't know every dollar, but you've given it to me by category. And you spend $95,000 on national advertising. And you spend $68,000, it looks like a front-range radio spots. You spend $58,000 on outdoor advertising. You spend $117,000 on online advertising. You spend $74,000 on front-range newspapers, and you spend $157,000 on factory labs designed TMRC. What is that? That's a huge number. It says factory labs designed and TMRC. What is that? 150 lab. Sorry? Factory lab. Right. I don't understand the TMRMC, but yes, it's all the creative and the placement and the media plans and everything that we work with our agency. Okay. And that's $157,000. Included new summer branding, which was a major initiative. All those numbers, I have just ticked off to you. I assume meet Bob Purvis' categorization of marketing as art. Because I don't see how, in any of those categories, you can measure the effectiveness of it. Unless you survey everybody who comes up here and say, what did you see, what did you hear, what happened, how did you get here, you can never know how effective or what use the expenditure of those really substantial amount of dollars is. But you can tell what it isn't doing. You can tell it isn't producing tourism in the summer. Because our occupancy rate is somewhere between 25 and 35% on average. But for the bliffs in the thing in your events, I don't think for spending $725,000 for marketing in the summer and getting 25 to 35% occupancy, it's not working. Okay? It can't be. So guess what you did. You came up with a summer vacation program. Brilliant. I'm glad you listened. I'm glad you do. I am very excited about this mammoth and mountains. I think you have done an extraordinary job in a very short period of time coming up with the idea, with the elements, with what you're going to need to do. And I truly commend you for that. Because I think that's where resource is ought to be focused. If you're not doing significantly better, getting significantly more summer tourism, spending $725,000, targeting summer tourists, I think this is a better place to focus your efforts. And I truly commend you for coming up with something as detailed as you have in such a short period of time. It is a great beginning. I have some thoughts about your your your plan if Right can I put you on hold a second. I've got Rick Griffin here that is why I have to be leaving here momentarily And I hate to separate your thoughts But I like to really get Rick's thoughts in here. No, Rick hasn't was done. No, Rick hasn't really gotten going, and he's looking at a pale right now. I'm not serious. I'm not sure he'd get here to go back before he needs to go. I thought he was done. No, no. Pale face need want them. Want them. Well, maybe I'll follow you out to give you some want them if you need it. Only thing there's a couple things I wanted to bring up, is that we had such great interaction between the two boards because we have a couple, I would consider a couple of them were fairly big powerhouses and marketing that sit on FAB and then we have the marketing board that deals with numbers all the time so you didn't have the isolation of two boards trying to talk to one another and not having the words sink in. They really knew what each other were saying. And there are things like the attachment B that is in the packet. Those are the kind of things that are going to come out and those will start helping make some of these measurements. It's, we're looking for tools. You know, we're basically, FAB was kind of the, the record that was out on the road and marketing said, hey, we got a flat, we think, but we need to sit down and talk with you. So we all got together and we had some tools and they found a way to use them that we hadn't thought of. And pretty soon we got to the point where there was the fear of discussion disappeared. The disgust that another board is telling me what to do, disappear. And we really had some great conversations that helped us as a group, sort of get to this point that you're at today. John and I had another couple of conversations about, we need to have an ongoing type of relationship like this. Regardless of who's chairperson, regardless of who's on the board, there needs to be something that helps the two boards maximize their potential. You know, we don't have all the answers on numbers. I can tell you, my shoes on, I can only count to ten. So I mean, I've got problems, but we depend on those ten fingers Yeah, she was on so anyway But the point though is this is that I Didn't come in here prepared for with a real big report because it was incorporated with what John and Susan were doing. I really want to tell town council that A, it was time to have you guys direct us to do what we did. B, it was time for marketing to open up where they opened up in order to be more successful going forward. And see it was time for FAB to understand that we're not bullies on the on in the bowry here with the club while we're here as we're part of a team trying to make things work. And I think if anything comes out of this. It should be that we as a group have a better town operation with the boards working better together and then working better with council. Council getting better information. Council being able to make decisions that are good for council. So that's all I want to say. I appreciate that Rick and you know thank you for your effort and your board's effort in this meeting because it is something that I can all- Yeah, I'm sorry that I'm not a big one. You need to get out of here and take care of yourself. Just to reinforce what you said, I got a phone call from Howard Gross after your last joint meeting and Howard, as I'm sure you know, has been critical of you, and his opening comment was, it really went much better than I expected. So I think that confirms what Rick said. It goes back to the lower expectations of 2% or high expectations. Very good. 15%. We got to raise Howard's expectations. Anyway, thank you all very much. Fred, back to you. Okay, I was looking at your presentation on this this mountains and banners, which again as I, I think is incredibly well done in the very short time that you've been working on it. I just have some thoughts, and I put them out to you, and this is, you know, you take them, you accept them, you reject them, whatever you want. But it seems to me, one thing you need to identify is a program director, or somebody who can coordinate this thing, and indeed run it in the summer. I mean, I don't think we have the in-house capacity in blue sales and marketing to do this. I mean, it's going to take some outside person who's got camping experience or has done things like this. And I asked Markey before the meeting that she still have contacts with folks up at this Camp Nishagania because that's what they do. You know, it's been very, very successful. And it's a totally different market than the one we're going to be looking to. And she said that she did and maybe you can have a conversation with her or maybe you have thought about that and are working on it already. Do you want to say some time? No, we discussed this and we in our marketing meeting and what we realized that there's potential to make this quite large. So what we did is set aside or directed. $10,000 expenditure. I saw that in the 2010s. On 11th. On the 2011s. To find out, is this thing, could this evolve, or maybe we could create a business, or someone in snowmass if they wanted to take this over, but we wanted to flesh it out to see how this could work. But we realized that the expenses you set for a program director and getting elements of the community, Camp Snowmass, Johnny's company, some other companies in Stomass and bring all those pieces together. So we're right in line with what you're talking about. Another thing you see is, okay, you're talking about marketing this program and you say, first the audience would have to be identified, i.e. travel agencies, specializing family travel, luxury travel consortiums, online travel agency, loyalty rewards companies, incentive travel companies, etc. What I didn't see mentioned here is the most obvious low hanging fruit. And that's people who come here in the winter. I mean, think about it. Everybody comes here in the winter as an outdoors person. They know what Stomass is about. I mean, it seems to me you should have a brochure available starting when the ski season starts and handed out to every person as they check in say, you know, previews of coming events at Stomass. You know, mammoths and mastodons. And when you, when you ultimately get the program together with, with the program and with whatever marketing tools you're going to be, you hand them out to every lodge and you hand them out to every hotel and you hand them out to the ski company. And they send it out to everybody on their guess list. I just didn't see that in here. Right, that's part of the plan, that level of detail we didn't go into, but we cross remote seasons all the time. We have a winter brochure that's always available in summer and vice-first. We do the same with products. We send the e-blasts. So it's part of the detail that you don't see there. But the point of the comment was, we need to develop channels to sell the program. And I completely agree with the low-hanging fruit. And that is something that we've been discussing. If we do feel that this is a very viable concept, just to make sure it is rolled out by the ski season. So the lodges can let their guests know and pieces, collateral can be ended out. But I do believe that other channels do need to be developed to sell the product. You make a statement here in Canter, I find troublesome. You say furthermore, it can be said that the snowmass as a whole is a bit of an unknown cabada deep to the non-skiers across the country. That speaks volumes, it seems, to me, to the expenditure of $725,000 on summer marketing. If we are that unknown to non-skiers, to whom and to what are you marketing in the summer time for $725,000. And I was just. And Fred, you can step up the micro in there and make some comments too. But is that more of a marketing? Yeah, that's not a good question. You've saved yourself. I mean, these are in question, you... Go ahead, sure. It's to listen and as we have in the past, not respond each individual nuance but to take it as a whole as we've already demonstrated to council that may be and the community we are listening and we'll we take this much like you do when when the community comes and talks to you we take this and we'll incorporate it into a plan and we and we've acted on things already. So rather than back and forth, I think we should. I could actually couldn't agree with you more, John. I wasn't expecting you to have two minutes left. You had two minutes left. I got about five minutes worth of stuff. No, I wasn't expecting a response. These are just my thoughts. And I said, you take them, you leave them, you do whatever you want with them. One of their observations I made was your costing. And you've got $187,000 budgeted for this. Now, I don't know whether that's a good number or a bad number. Well, no, I should say, I don't know if that's the right number or the wrong number, but it's a good number and it's a good number because it's a big number. It shows a real commitment on your part to this program and I would urge you if you, as you go through your planning process and you say, we really need to dedicate more money to this, that some of that $725,000 that you can't account for, that you can't just say it's done this is applied to this, is applied to this thing, to this program. And let me tell you why I'm so big on this program, because I view it as an investment. It's an investment because we can see a payoff. If this program is successful, we're going to know it. We're going to get people here. This advertising for $725,000, I don't know whether it's successful or not. Well, I don't think we're so successful because we're not getting that many people. But this is an investment. And I absolutely understand it may take some time, year, two years, three years, for it to get some traction, for you to get it right. But I certainly think it's worth that effort because it's something we're not doing and it's something we can easily find out whether it's going to work or not. And I don't mean this to sound harsh, but I know very well it may not work. I guess the ski company has tried this in the past or other resource have tried it and it hasn't worked. So it could fail. And you know something, that's okay. You know, investments fail. But I would rather invest and fail than toss money against the wall in the hopes that it sticks. So I encourage you to put forth the effort that's going to be necessary to give this thing the best shots you can. I've just got a couple comments for group sales and I truly don't want any responses. I have to commend you on your candor. For somebody to say to us, when speaking about the matrix that is used to quantify the efforts of the TSOV group sales departments, two things are obvious. First, the change needs to be made to the current system that is in place now because, by all accounts, it is largely ineffective. That's candor, and that's tough to say. I think it is a sad state of affairs that for four or five years that this group sales has been in business, that it's taken you this long to realize that you don't have an effective means of measuring how well you're doing. that you don't have an effective means of measuring how well you're doing. So part of that is shame on you and part of that is shame on us. This council has since your inception has had the right to demand a business plan, performance standards, and quarterly reporting to see how you're meeting those performance standards. And we haven't done it. And so it's as much our fault as it is yours. But now you've done it. And the FAB approves of it, I think it looks like a great deal. I look forward to your quarterly reports and showing us concretely how you're doing. showing us concretely how you're doing. I have one thought for you with respect to the, this mountains and vast are mannest. I've been around here long enough to remember when, when snowmass had lots of summer professional meetings, doctors, lawyers, and counties, would come out for a weekend for a convention. Those haven't been happening so much. You now have a new arrow in your quiver. And it seems to me you can go to the various entities that organize these medical conferences, these dental conferences, what have you, and say listen, not only should you hold your conference out here through four days, but you can have a family vacation. Bring all your kids up, bring your wife out, and just have a ball for a week. I put that out to you because it's something we had to successful doing before. We now have a new dimension to it, and it seems to me it might be something you try. One last comment and this is a comment really addressed to your constituents. I know because I have heard that one of the reasons you haven't come up with a good metric is that you haven't had cooperation from from the lodging community. you haven't had cooperation from the lodging community. We haven't had cooperation, the town hasn't had cooperation from the retailers and the restaurants and providing us requested sales tax revenues. I mean, the story I heard is that lodges won't tell you groups, they book their numbers that they book because the guy who's in group sales there would get less of a commission if they knew that you helped them. I think that's infantile and I think that's very narrow, very narrow-minded. We are all in this together and I think you all have pressed a reset button. You've understood your shortcomings, you are taking steps to cure them. I think your constituents need to do the same things. The lodging community needs to be cooperative, retail and restaurant community needs to be cooperative and give us, and if we need sales tax information, we're asked for, we have to ask for it. We have to get it. And if they're not willing to do it, they become part of the problem rather than part of the solution. And they shouldn't bitch. So with that, I again commend you on what you've done. You've got great challenges ahead of you, which you've got a great start. on what you've done. You've got great challenges ahead of you, which you've got a great start. Thank you Fred. Other council comments? John Wolves? Well I want to thank you also for bringing it in. It's tough to measure and report back to us what it is you're doing and how far our responsibility could go. I don't even pretend to know how do you market this resort. I know what I like, I know what things brings people in my group to town and what puts the needle off on that. But it's a morphing situation. When we had the Snowmass National Bike Mount Bike Race here in 2004, we had over 600 cross country mountain bike racers. Blast the mass of summer, I think we had about 100. I mean, you can, but on the other side, you have the downhillers, the people that ride the lifts and come down. Their numbers have started to swell, so you're always having to morph and whatever you come up with a concept might work today is not going to be what's happening out there in the future. And so that's a tough challenge for how do you measure that and how do you report back to it. What I also find interesting is that a lot of discussions we've had today, discussions we had in 2003, when we were going through the base village review and how base village was going to lessen the dependency on winter to get our businesses and live through the summer and the shoulder of season. Well, we know what's happened to that is stalled out. We're sitting here with a product where we need a lot more residential to prop up what is happening in our retail sector, which is where I hear a lot of the complaints. You know, it's hard to complain when we got our last month's year to date numbers on sales tax on lodging tax. We're up 8% for the year on the sales tax and we're up 12% on lodging tax. But you've talked to lod donors and the retailers, they're all saying they're all suffering. So what we have is a big pie that's been spread out even further. And it's a challenge for everyone that's in that kind of a business trying to operate to make it through from lift shut down to lift opening in November. And that's the challenge that our communities face with. You're doing things in the right manner to move us forward, looking forward with different ideas, and I agree with Fred, I mean, not everything's going to work, not everything's going to be success. And that's okay because you need to try things. You just never know. Mountain boarding. I mean, we were all remember when that was a big thing. Where you haven't seen him lately. And it's just, it's a challenge for us as a town to provide the infrastructure necessary to attract people. I got to commend the ski company for bringing forward the idea and the investment into the downhill mountain biking in the summertime. I made it. I wrote it yesterday and it was nice because there was no analysis there. I didn't have to look behind me so he was catching me. But it was one of those things that you can see is going to attract all the, what did you refer to them? The young. I'm going to be able to get the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to the right to also looking for things that can sustain lodging. A voice been frustrated with the Thursday night concerts. I've said, should be Friday night, maybe you could perhaps capture a weekend stay rather than it's a great community event, but does it really help our lodging? And trying to work these things together where we can have an overall increase. And hopefully we'll keep moving forward. And I commend your whole board for bringing increases in our town and I hope to see it continue. You know, some of the broad, 30,000 questions that I get to, say, I'll text questions. Are we at the right number with new passage maybe of E3E and a few other things that are going to change the sales tax numbers? Are we going to be bumping our heads against a point to where we should be looking at reducing the marketing special event sales tax number? Are we at that point in time where we're hurting ourselves because we're bumping our heads against a number that some people say is too much. People come in some of the shops and say, hey, I'm paying all this and what do I get out of it? We try to explain it's a number of things you're getting out of it. It's the summertime events. It's buses for a general fund. It's all sorts of things that we do. But is that something that we need to sit down you guys talk about to say, is this appropriate number or does there need to be a change in those kind of things? You know, the world has changed. Part of that is what does it mean? Is our retail segment selling the right thing? I mean, is it something that we, and go up into the malls, locals, and say, hey, we have to go buy this stuff? Or is it just a tourist-based economy that those guys are going to buy something from D&E, because they're sitting right there in the corner, and they have to buy it? Or what are we going to do to draw people into snowmast to partake of what we have? partake of our cheap, less expensive rooms. You know, so, do we need to reinvent ourselves somehow? Do the retailers need to say, hey, the emis of snowmats are gone, you know, there's not a big nice art gallery up there to go in and to invite. You know, we got asked them to end the street and we all get frustrated saying, well, how come Aspen is doing all this much better than we are? Guys, snowmasses have been doing pretty well, I think. Numbers have been showing it, but it's not the big numbers that come and ask them. The Blue Shwitzer said, you know, you put a hat down that says Aspen on it, but a hat down that says Snowmass Village on it, they pick up the Aspen hat. That's why we're aspirin and stomest. So that's sort of helps, you know, what you guys have sort of taken on, the ski companies help us do. And I think it's a good thing, but those are the kind of questions I think we sort of really need to sit down and ask ourselves, what's happening? Are the numbers that we looked at in 2004 for, you know, base village in the economy and the physical responsibility and assumptions we made are those still correct? No, times have changed. The commies change. People are not traveling in the summertime like they used to. So do we continue hitting each other in the back of the back saying, you're not doing the job. You're not doing the job. No, it's a combination of things with guys. And it is something when the economy has had an effect on us. We have to look at this a little bit more positively maybe and say come to snowmast, you'll get more of a bang to your buck. Bring your family and it's going to be something that when you leave snowmast, your family are going to be talking more because you've been not doing things, you've been rock climbing, you've been hiking, you've been doing the ropes courses, you've been in Fred's camp. What kind of things are we going to be able to send people home with thing? Hey, I enjoyed snowmassen. We should go back. But I think these are some of the questions that we're all trying to find. How do we jumpstart ourselves? And it's not easy. And I think a lot of it is the economy. When I drive across country, my RV to see some place, they're all telling me the same thing. They're not seeing the numbers they used to. So I sometimes challenge Fred and Fred challenges me, cook her here because I said, look, you know, get Fred, it's not snowmass. It's not as much snowmass. Maybe there is a bit there because of our retail and stuff. But there's more to the world. We're not getting people here. People aren't spending their money. Businesses aren't doing the, you know, travel that they used to do. They're all watching it because they're all nervous. So what can we do to help get people here? You guys are the experts, you know. These five of us up here aren't the marketing and group sales people. We do know that there is money out there that we have to be careful with and that are we getting the right, the right bang for our buck, but you guys and Gals are working on. So, I think there are a number of things that we'll go on to, we've got budget stuff to discuss and look at. But I think we're going to have to be with that, you know, unfortunately, at a later time unless we're going to go on tonight, a little further. But, you know know you're the experts here. You guys have been working so hard all these years we put this together. SRA had the same problems. Maybe more of them. I just think that you know we have our people in place here and maybe there needs to be a little more better communication is you know quarterly things that you're going to come to us and we're going to get out to the community. We can ran along, but at least I could. Mark. Well, I really do want to commend the marketing and special groups for this great report. I think you've done a fabulous job. I'm not going to be critical because I'm not a believer in criticism. I'm not going to be critical because I'm not a believer in criticism. My believer is, my belief is always to try to focus on improvement. He've identified where the weaknesses are with our program and you've done a great job with that. So I will not spend a lot of time on that. I would like to put forth some of the thoughts that I've had over the last few weeks. And this comes from looking at the municipal code and the time that we created the marketing and sales and then subsequently the group. And I would put forth the question to the board which we have not discussed tonight. Do we have the right structure? Does group sales really belong within a town or should it sit someplace else? And I don't know what that answer might be. I don't know how other marketing and sales and group programs are put together in other ski resorts or resorts. But I think that if I go back, I always look, I'm a little contemplative at this point saying, is it the outcome that we're struggling with a result of the wrong structure or the wrong process? And I don't know the answer to that. I would really be helped to have the board to come back and really think through that and I'm sure they have. I'm sure there's been some discussion internally within the board. And I would look for some recommendations. If it's the right structure, then let's make it work. Let's figure out how best that we can work together to continue to move forward. So there was one other thing. work, let's figure out how best that we could work together to continue to move forward. So there was one other thing, there's a notion of a lodging advisory committee within the municipal code. I don't even know who's on that. And then there's another advisory committee. I don't know who's on that. I would be helped if that if someone could provide me that information. Other than that, I don't know if $600 or $700,000 from some of marketing is a good number or a bad number. I can't look at, I know what, I spend on marketing. There's a percentage I spend in our organizational time organization on marketing. I don't think it's enough. And I can't measure point A to point B at 100%. I just know what happens in terms of volume of business and revenue at the end of the day. So I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on this discussion tonight. And I think I'll take Marquis's path a little bit myself. I echo some of those complaints. I echo a lot of those compliments and some of those questions I think are important to. I'm really happy to see development of this metric. I'm really happy to see the collaboration with the FAB and the marketing board. I think that's a really positive evolution. I think this introspection with the group sales structure and things, I think that's really positive to look closely at that. I've often asked the same question whether that's really appropriate to have that in the context of a government organization, you know, typically that's not the traditional structure and it causes things to get weird, I think, when you put it in that context. You know, these are typical functions of an organization outside of government and you often have the benefit of not having to maybe deal with this type of transparency and all this type of inquisition. So I don't know if it works better or worse in this context or not, but I guess we're stuck with it. So I like the direction that we're taking. I think this has been a positive conversation. Thank you guys for the presentation. A couple of things I'd like to hear more about in the future. This notion of, you know, Frank talks about this long term investment in things that are lasting and identity creating. You know, to me some of the things that we talk about, like this opportunity for capital investment with some of the marketing fund dollars. I'd like to see some more thought on that and maybe why we haven't used that money or where we have effectively or where we could effectively. Really looking at those advertising dollars and thinking critically about how we direct those. I mean, with being ranked number one in trans-world snowboarding now, I don't see any dollars going to that in terms of kind of where you talk about the dollars going. And maybe with the American Airlines, I've heard that represents a whole new opportunity to get advertising opportunities out there to all those customers that are coming through that avenue. Again, along those lines of, do we focus on the big events versus these more spread out kind of identity creators. We have this Thursday night concert that everybody seems to live and it really does create this sense of community and a reason for people to be here and stay here. I think there's more opportunities maybe away from music getting on the bike thing. You have a weekly bike event or a weekly run event or some kind of thing that people know they can keep coming back to snowmassen and building that, whether it's educational, scientific, whatever. And then also just really emphasizing, leveraging the partnerships that we have to be as efficient as we can be with these dollars. I think a lot of people see this big number, $5 million between group sales and marketing and you say, are we getting as much paying for that buck as we can be? And so whether it's booking through SAS or going after groups or going after different market segments with that partnership or with the SICO, just want to encourage us to try and maximize that as much as we can. Thanks again, everybody, for being a part of it. Russ, I'll actually go ahead. Can I go ahead? I just need to clear one thing up here that's been said tonight that I feel a little uncomfortable with is this marketing group, I think, works as a team. And maybe some clarification needs about all these different bottles and different glasses looking and putting their two cents into the marketing of snowmess. I think that as a group we work quite well together and we do very much have best interest to snowmess involved. So I don't know about if you want to clarify that statement as being a wider group of people that have different viewpoints and whatnot. And we amongst ourselves, yeah, we have a lot of different viewpoints. We have a lot of healthy discussion, but in the end, we clearly think about snowmass and not ourselves so much. We think about snowmass as a whole. For example, as a larger representative, we get very, very benefit from Thursday night concerns. I personally think it's one of the best things we do. So I just wanted to say that because I don't think that was clearly represented. I don't know if there are any other comments, but I just wanted to be clear about next steps. And my sense from the marketing board is that the AFAB looking at the stakeholders report has made some recommendations and from a good dialogue about looking forward in terms of how to improve the metric and I think you've heard some ideas from the marketing board in terms of how to do that again the code talks about a business plan being presented back to the council and then you having quarterly updates using that as a point of reference in your discussions And again, I think the previous and agreement around communication has been to have kind of two detailed presentations like this and then to be provided minutes. But again, I just want there to be some clear agreement about next steps and my sense is the next step would be taking this input, a lot of input, particularly in the last two weeks, kind of finalizing what I think would be a basis for a business plan from the stakeholders report. And then moving forward with communication with the council, using that as a point at departure, but wanted to make sure there was agreement between the council, we were consistent with the code in the marketing board. Rosemite, I also point out that Bill Thomson has been here very generously, generously giving his time, but the question had come up about American Airlines and so he offered to come and meet with him. That was my next one is to make sure we're prepared for the budget. I would be helped to take all the comments to see if the BP model really works. The L.O.E. That would be the response to that. I would like to believe that we're one step away from you folks agreeing a set of metrics, which I think come out of the slides they presented earlier and ended with the return on investment. I think there are five or six metrics in there, but I would like you to say that's the language I want you to come back to us quarterly and speak to. We'll do it in person. As you say, every other quarter, we'll do it in writing and the quarters in between. I just want to make sure you're reading on how to form a balance. I mean, we can land after a balanced scorecard. Yeah, yeah. We can land that. I also would like to agree that we get on with ill and you're budgeting because I know you have needs, but I'd like to accept Markie's offer because we talked about it. And we were going to ask for it if you didn't need it to ask for it. We'd like to come back and talk to you about structure and governance process. We are at a place where I think that would be a very appropriate discussion to make sure we now that we're analytically perhaps with the metrics from the same page. We're spiritually on the same page in terms of governance and structure. So maybe there could even be a two for maybe a final product that that business plan in a governance discussion that would occur in the future. Please. And then not too distant future. Yeah, another thing I'd like to add to that report that you bring back to us are some of the ideas that you're kicking around. Some that you think might work and some that won't work. I'd just like to hear some of the creative ideas here group is putting together and it doesn't hurt that. I mean, it would give you a list of all the ones that he talked about and they never pulled off with. Well, yeah, I mean, I would like, I think our community needs to hear those ideas because they get the impression a lot of people that we're not listening to them. We're listening, we're not always responding. Hopefully this is an okay time just to let everybody know that we do have a community launch on December 13th and there's a lot of fun things that we're going to be sharing. So now get on your calendar. September 1st. December 13th, lunch time. Yes. So again, back to budget because, again, November 7th, we would like to bring back the entire budget and you've got a lot of people that could answer a lot of questions about that budget that are in the room. Do we? Yeah, thank you guys for your time Peter. Yeah, I know. We pass bricks. There are questions really well. Spend his afternoon here with us. That we have about the specifically the American Airlines and what happens. I mean, I'm sure we'll talk to a number of us over the last few weeks anyway. To the community. We've heard a number of things. Is there anything specific Bill? You'd like to? We've heard a number of things and it's very special. Bill, you'd like to- I think it'd be really valuable for all of us out there in the world that haven't heard the details like why this idea is a good idea or why we're even talking about it. I would love to hear you talk about that a little bit. Thank you for the record. My name is Bill Thompson. And I'm the President of State Aspen Snowmass. We are the Central Reservations Office that is owned one-third by Aspen's Scheme Company, one-third by the Aspen Lodging Properties, and one-third still by what exists as a Snowmass Resort Association soon to be the Snowmass Lodging Properties. But we function as a central call to action. And it's been very interesting for me to listen to this discussion going on here for the past couple of hours. I'm really pleased to see how important all these M-trip numbers are to this group and how much attention you pay to them because it was only a few years ago that we were about six years ago actually we were discussing at our board meeting you know whether or not this kind of data would be of value to this community. And it was actually a staff and snowmast that initially funded licenses for all the lodging properties and the destination marketing organizations to participate in M-Trip, which has led to six years of historical data that we now have at our fingertips. I'm also very pleased to see that there's interest in further slicing and dicing this information and it sounds like some customized reports for snowmass in particular to really carve out the effectiveness of groups is something that's very important to this community. Similarly in Aspen they've got a need to try to carve out and isolate how the small lodges are doing relative to everybody else and also the fractional. So I do see a future in this occupancy reporting, and it's only going to get better with time, and this is very helpful for me to see how this information is being presented here at the town council level. The other question I thought I'd take an opportunity to answer, because it came up, is it arose how much business is overflowing from Aspen into Snowmass, particularly this past summer. And I can actually speak to that because as an office that's located at the main visitor center in Aspen, where a lot of people come over independence pass or straight into town looking for accommodations, we send a lot of people who might aspire to stay in Aspen who end up staying up here in Snowmass Village. And no more so than this past summer. In fact, I'll share with you some of our summer results. Overall, our room nights at Staspen, Staspen, Stomach is somewhere up 12%. But in Staspen, they're only up 2%, whereas in Staspen Village, they're up 23%. So I think that pretty clearly indicates a lot of folks who have migrated up to Staspen Village because of our reservation agents that stay aspen Snowmass. And as it relates to Aspen Daily Rate, average daily rate, which is also very important, obviously Snowmass has more attractive rates, particularly during the summer than Aspen. But the average rate that we produced at Staspen Snowmass for the visitors who wind up seeing in Snowmass is almost 20% higher than the town average. So I think that's also a significant indicator of the role that we play in terms of driving business from Aspen into Snowmaster in the summer. So I'm very proud of that fact. And in terms of the answer your question, Jason, about the American Airlines proposal. And I've spoken with a lot of you about the details. And I won't bore you with all the details of how this began from day one. But I feel in the end of the day we have negotiated an incredibly attractive deal to lure American Airlines into this community beginning December 15th of this year. They were not easy negotiations. American Airlines drives a very hard bargain. I've been working with them for the past 20 years or so since in a prior life I had the same role over in the Vale Valley trying to trying to recruit 757s into the Eagle County Airport so I know how tough they can be. And we ended up getting a deal for literally pennies on the dollar compared to what they were seeking which was a full minimum revenue guarantee in order to fly into this community. They've got a lot of operational challenges being that they've only major airline that hasn't gone through bankruptcy reorganization so they do have higher operating costs and they also have some lingering pilot contracts that don't allow them to do the kinds of things that every other airline that has had those contracts thrown away by the bankruptcy courts can, including the incumbent carrier United. So from that said, you know, they don't have dozens of regional jets can fly in here. In fact, the one regional jet that they have in their fleet, which is the same one that Sky West flies in for United Express, they only have 44 of these total, and their scope clause restricted from acquiring any more. So in order for them to fly that aircraft into our valley during the summer, they have to cancel an existing route, one that's already making good money for them. So there's a very significant opportunity cost associated with reallocating that aircraft to the Roaring Fork Valley. And it's basically one aircraft for an entire day, all ski season long, and again beginning mid-June all three next summer, with one daily nonstop from both Los Angeles and Dallas Fort Worth. Time to offer perfect connections from not only to top domestic markets, but international as well. And that is the real key in my mind to the benefit of Snowmass Village. I'd like to share a quote that was made by actually United Airlines CEO just last week at the executive's club of Chicago. It was on the front page of airline weekly that I just received this morning. And referring to the US airline industry and United Airlines in particular, all of our future is tied to international flying. It's almost impossible to make money domestically. That really shares some thoughts as to why American Airlines is so interested in this market and why we were able to negotiate such an attractive deal for them to fly here. It's because of the potential business from Australia, from Europe, and from South America. It's the international business, the lion's share of which is going to Snowmass Village this winter. And we've seen some very strong advanced bookings as a result. That is really key to the airlines willingness to fly in here. There are other resort destinations that have to pay full minimum revenue guarantees, most of which have seven figures attached. We have one less zero on the incentive package that we have negotiated with American, and it's a very small one-time start-up subsidy. The vast majority of it is in terms of marketing dollars to help support them both this winter and into the future. And let me tell you, there are other resort destinations that would do anything to have that kind of deal where they can spend marketing dollars to fill up their seats as opposed to paying the airline after the fact for empty seats, which is what most other sphere resorts do. So I'm really pleased with the logo of collaboration that we've seen between both City of Aspen and the Aspen Chamber Resort Association, certainly Aspen's skiing company and the Stemasterism through the marketing board to help put to deal together to lure American Airlines into town. Clearly, the one risk in my mind from the beginning was what might be the competitive reaction here from our two incumbent airlines, United in Frontier. In the end of the day, we couldn't have asked for a better competitive response, which is that United has since added more flights, one additional flight from Houston and one flight from Los Angeles. And the timing of those flights for Jeff Spines' ex-quote here last week in Chicago, it's time to go after more international visitors. And that's where the battlefield is being waged and fred to your comment in terms of some of the opportunities about marketing to the winter visitors. This is something American Airlines is going to be really interested in doing because they're already seeing the advanced bookings grow, particularly from Dallas. And you better believe the lowest hanging fruit that they're going to see is going to be an opportunity to market to those people who are flying here this winter, try to bring them back next summer. The other final point I want to leave you with is not only the collaboration that we've seen here locally, which I'm really proud of, but some of the influences we've had in terms of working with American and their international partners, specifically Quantis. It's been, while American and Quantis have already had a relationship being that they're part of what's called the One World Alliance and their co-chair partners, they don't all work together in the ways they'd like to see. And it's actually Aspen's Scheme companies, international sales manager who introduced Americans, director of sales marketing to the senior sales manager for Quantus. And now they are working together to promote the service. And the connections that exist in Aspen's glasses this winter. So a lot of good things are happening as a result. And I just thank you in advance, or certainly to the marketing board for your support on helping make this happen. They have to answer any questions. I saw some of you know, one of the papers or somewhere talking about the percentages of people who come into Pitch and County, how high the number is coming into snowmess. Can you speak to that a little bit at all? In terms of international business? Yeah, I think that's what it was. You know what I can speak to is our numbers right now on behalf of Steyaspen's snowmass. And they're very impressive for this upcoming winter. And this is just a snapshot of winter bookings and I'll just use room nights just to put in perspective. And this includes the international international desk which caters to the international tour operators or the businesses is truly off the charts right now and I have to flip the proper page here In terms of room nights for Aspen in our total volume is up 18% for this upcoming winter. Snowmass is up 54%. And again, that's all international driven. And I think there are a lot of reasons our international businesses up so strong at this early date. But certainly one of them is the improvement in the airline access and the international connections. And that would not be happening without the new American connections through Dallas. Very good. Well again, thank you for your time tonight. Does council have any questions about John Wilkinson? Yeah, I got some questions on the letter that's in our packet. It looks like you're requesting a total of 225,000 from Snowmass Village. Over two years, is there a two year cash commitment or is it just the 75,000 startup cash? Startup cash is the one time startup cash to get them into the market. And then the ongoing marketing is for two years. And of course that is subject to continued service here. But based on the really advanced bookings that we're seeing from America, and I don't see that as an issue. So do you see them going beyond just this first year and their commitment? Their intention is to stay here long-term. And going beyond just this first year and their commitment? Their intention is to stay here long-term. And if the initial flights from Dallas and Los Angeles are successful, certainly the plans would be to add flights from their other reachable hub, which is Chicago, which also has brilliant international connections. Now I would also say that next summer, the flights are actually scheduled into the GDS through what they call infinity. So there is no expiration date for those flights. At this point in time, next August or September, although I'm sure at some point in time, they're going to decide what day makes sense to cut the service off and take a break until the following season. And this is the recommendation from your board Susan for approval. Okay. Another question I have is that, you know, what they're bringing in, how many seats on that on the plane? There are other crafter configured for 63 seats. So is that possibly that they're taking out seats that would have come in here otherwise by another airline or because it's more convenient from LA or? No, it actually had the opposite impact. We had a total of three daily non-stops from Los Angeles on United Last year and when American added their daily non-stop United added a fourth. So we've seen exponentially more seats as a result of American's entry into our marketplace. And then how come do I talk about operating out ofIA, having a shuttle to Denver from here. Every airline that flies in and out of the Aspen Airport, or any ski resort airport for that matter, connects the destination through one of their hubs. United is a hub for both, I'm sorry, Denver is a hub for both United and Frontier Airlines, and therefore they can collect passengers and offer connections to multiple destinations. Denver to American is nothing but a spoke. So the only non-stop that American flies into Denver are from Dallas, Los Angeles, also Chicago, and they have one daily flight from Miami. I don't think we're ever going to see a Miami non-stop into Aspen, although I'm sure the market could support it if they could fly it. But, you know, essentially, the strategy for the airlines is to fly from their connecting hubs, which in Americans cases are Dallas and Los Angeles and potentially Chicago in the future. Now, one of my experiences lately traveling by air is being diverted away from landing in Aspen. In fact, I think of my family and I have experienced it on almost every trip we've had lately. One of the things I've liked about the direct flights, though, is that they're not diverting back to Denver, but to Grand Junction or Eagle, what's the plan on American? Excellent question. And as you and I spoke last week, John, generally speaking, when an airline doesn't fly as many frequencies as, for example, United does with up to 24 flights a day of the swimmer, their ability to complete those flights is far greater. So in Americans' case with just one flight a day from Los Angeles and Dallas, they're going to make an extra concerted effort to take care of those passengers. Certainly, there will be times when they're not going to be able to land at the Aspen Air Port due to weather. But the timing of the flights will allow them to divert to grand junction just as many of United's long haul flights currently do and be connected with ground transportation and out of luck instead of just allowing the passengers who are trying to travel outbound to stand by for the next available flight. The timing of the schedule that American has developed for Aspen this winter will allow the outbound passengers to take ground transportation over to either Eagle or Grand Junction and take other commercial flights on American airlines to make it to their final destination. So I believe American is actually going to be able to provide a superior product during periods of what they call irregular operations than either of our incumbent carriers. How many flights a day ought to Eagle on American do you know? They have I have to add an add them, about six totally. Two to Dallas, one to Chicago, one to LA. That's a nice safety outlet. It is a very nice backup safety outlet for American passengers. So do you need a decision from us today to approve this? Are we waiting for the budget? Well, again, our plan would be to present you with this budget. We had a lot of resources here tonight. Might be nice for the gentleman and particularly build a know, whether he has your support, but our plan would be to present this in the budget to you on the seventh. Is there any dissension about what, some of the American airlines that we need to clear up tonight? I just have another question. Jason, can you speak a little bit to what impact this has had on prices or what impact you expected to have on prices? Pricing is a funny thing in the airline industry. It's really a function of supply and demand. Right now, airline prices for the future aren't necessarily cheap, but they're not cheap anywhere. Prices throughout the entire industry have been going on. aren't necessarily cheap, but they're not cheap anywhere. The price is throughout the entire industry have been going on. By virtue of the fact that we have nearly a 20% increase in overall capacity during our peak winter months, I'm talking about Christmas February through March. If we didn't have that 20% increase, I can assure you that the airline prices would be a whole lot higher than they are right now. And one specific example is look at Christmas New Year's coming in on the 26th and back in a second. And I've been in charge of central reservations here in Aspen since 1998. And I can't remember a single year where by this point in time if you want to travel on those peak days, you're buying one of the last available seats at $1,000 and more round trip. Right now, you can buy round trip flights on those peak days still in the 700s. So it certainly has had a favorable impact on pricing more through capacity than through the actual pricing behavior of the airlines. And of course, the other career that's had a huge impact on pricing, particularly locally, between Aspen and Denver has been frontier. Okay. I think you sound like you've got some good support. I don't hear it to me people saying no to the American Airlines portion. I don't think that's very good for all of our wealth reports. And we appreciate you guys working as hard as you did to make that happen. I have one question. This has nothing to do with American Airlines, which I totally supported. It gets into what we heard early about the Silicon Valley. And that being a pretty significant market. This winter and into next summer, are we going to see a lot more flights direct from San Francisco? Actually, that's a very good question. United has been flying two daily fights from San Francisco. Based on advanced bookings, they've actually trimmed back some of their January flying in San Francisco nonstop. So they're going back to one flight a day. But they're going to continue to flex their capacity based on the actual demand they're seeing. Right now, the demand that I'm seeing at St. Aspen's Film Ass is based on early bookings and addition to international is Texas and Florida. And I'm sure that snow's small coincidence of the fact that we have new flights not only to Dallas, but also the new United States through Houston. I don't know how much we market in San Francisco. That's another whole discussion, and that's a season in marketing board, but what we're hearing tonight, I'm going, hmm. Talho's five hours away and it's frequently too difficult to get there. Very true. Okay. Anything more, Bill? Great job. Thank you. Thank you very much. Moving on with our marketing, what is Council's further? We're asking you to set it for the budget process. We really need to hammer on or discuss this for next meeting. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have a question. So, we're going to have the resolution for the 2012 budget. That would include all the funds. And then you'd have the revised 2011 budget, which would be two readings of an ordinance. That would be first reading of that on November 7th. So we just want to make sure, particularly with the marketing board here, that if you had any questions about that budget, you can answer them about that budget, an answer or that we could be prepared to respond to them if they were straightforward questions on the seventh. I guess the question I have given all that you have heard, will you be prepared to present a final budget on the seventh? Okay. Let's do that seventh. Okay. Let's do that then. Okay. Seven to be the, you know, budget discussion. Very good. Anything else, Council would like to, very good, you guys or gals, gals, would like to, you know, talk to us about other than, you know, us just other than us just saying things to you. Here we have some food back here too. A couple of remarks and I must admit it's tough for the board to sit and hear some hard words from council. But I do have to say having been part of the board, either unofficially or officially, since its inception is that the board and the two accounts efforts in your selection has been able to attract some very strong people to the board with marketing experience, good analytical skill, and an ability to adjust and adapt. So, you know, we know we're not perfect, we know we can improve. We don't mind being challenged, we really don't, and pushed. But I do have to say that, you know, the way the staff works and the board works, it's not broken. We do a lot of good work. The staff does a lot of good work. The board does a lot of good work. Suggestions and comments that have come forth tonight. In many cases we could have and wanted to respond saying, well, we do this, we do this, we do this to try and answer your questions or comments or concerns. You got a strong group of people, strong board and a willing to listen and adjust. So I don't think the model's broken. I really don't think you need to worry about that. And I think as the budget gets proposed and adopted and adjusted over the next period of time, then we'll continue to do good work. No question is huge challenges right now. Since the recession hit, the microscope is turned on to marketing, events, group sales in a big way, where when we were in the heavy days of 2002 through 2007, the same scrutiny wasn't around. But that goes with the territory. In any business or any town government or certainly with this marketing board, we expect it and we'll rise the challenge and I think we're going to do okay. I just like to say, if you've heard Hush Words, it's only because we've heard house boards. And this is the only way we get to tell you what we've heard. And to help you understand what your constituent is saying, as I said at the outset, I think you have done. I think a reset button has been set. This stakeholder's report does it. All. I hope is that you will follow through on what you proposed here. And you're right. Life has changed since the roaring early 2000s. And everything I read says it's going to stay changed for a while. So we have to adopt to this new reality. And it sounds as though you're starting to do it. Thank you, Fred. OK. Anyone else? Let's move on to the next item. Take a little break before we move on. I think we're nearly done. Let's get on this diamond. We're almost done. Now, hold the minutes. Let's go. The agenda for next meeting. Oh, you. I just went through the agenda basically. It's a budget discussion. Okay. Approval next meeting minutes for Meeting for September 6th Second Thank you I will confer with the clerk on some of I will confer with the clerk on some of the units. Thanks, John. In the case of all of them, they were pleased to be present on. Hi. Any opposed? I intend to cancel comments from the ear of our staff members. Jason. Welcome back, man. We'll leave starting later. Thank you for here. Okay. If you would. Marky. Welcome back, ma'am. We'll leave starting later. Thank you for your hair. Okay. If you would. Marky. Two things. On the evaluation process for our town manager and town attorney, we only have a couple results end. If you all could work very hard to get those to us by, to Mary Ann by Wednesday or Thursday of this week so I can get Information from her then Fred and I will meet on Saturday or Sunday before the meeting of the seventh Is that doable that is doable. Okay, as soon as you can get it done I And if you have any questions about the process Just give give me a shelter Mary Ann. Okay Okay. Those threads out at hand now for two weeks. And I think you're gonna talk about P-Trab at some point. Yeah, I'll let that letter, okay. Okay. Jason. I was just gonna mention State of the Valley Symposium. If he goes or familiar with that, I'm like, is this Friday? Friday. Yeah. Yeah. Put the call out, I'm going to try and make it to that. So, uh, anybody else is interested in going along with that? What time is that? That's a year. I'm not sure. So, it's 9 to 12. I think it's 9. Yeah. It's a true word. So, it's a lot of demographic economic information about where they're seeing trends going for our region. Okay. Do you need the old Jason? about where they're seeing trends going for our region. All right. Okay. Do you need any old sheets? No. I'll go next. We've gotten a letter from our part-time residence advisory board last week that had been sort of circulated to the town. It's sort of... We've got two letters last week. Okay. You did clarify. Well, good clarify. This is the, there was a letter sent to us last week, specifically talking about the man with discovery test force. And a member of the committee apparently, or it was signed by all seven members of the part-time resident survivor board. I had made a comment that I guess I probably should read this letter, which I'll do. They got out October 10, 2011. Dear Mayor, Del Boino, Council members, John Wilkinson, Marke Butler, if I cook here, Jason Haber, Rest Forest, I sage sage Discovery Committee, Tuss Forest members in the Sonless Village community. Our community has said that appears as far as to be an inclusive resort community seen by others as welcoming and always responsible stewards of our society. So that if or when successful Sonless Village will assure our future as a sustainable resort community. Each community member plays a critical role in setting and working towards achieving the community's values and aspirations. The depth and breadth of the experience, wisdom and public service that our community members, including part-time residents, have already given and continue to give ad significant value to the community. As members, as community members and as representatives of the part time residents, we continue to seek to serve our community, including continuing to serve in areas in which part time residents are instrumental in helping move our community forward. Due to concerns regarding recent events whereby part-time resident representation has not been included on the board directors of the non-profit corporation, we have no choice but to adopt the following motion. Unless part-time residents are represented on the board directors of the non-profit corporation that will be created as a result of the I-Sage Discovery Committee's recommendations. Whose recommendations were approved by Council on 815 2011? The Stin-N-S-Vorge Part-Time Residence Advisory Board will not participate in or endorse any related fundraising activities. Respectfully yours, Part-Time Residence Advisory Board Collin Doyle Chair, George Blenstis, Vice Chair, John Barrett, Nobel Peace Hall, Greer Fox, John Michaelman, and Victor Rausch. When we got, I'll say when I got that letter last week in Reddit, I was offended for the government because it is not something that the government has been involved in setting the members. We went to the task force and said, come back to us as a recommend anybody of what the next step needs to be. They decided it should be an individual separate organization not controlled by the town. One of the things is the town doesn't have any money to put into this. In my opinion, it was one of those things where we have a number of people in the community, which are very qualified to help get this put together, which a number of people have. They sat down on their own, decided who those members were and what size committee that would be. So when I got this letter, I was felt that it was a threat and I was not real happy with the tone of the letter because again, it was something that we had not had any control of picking and we were keeping the arms length so that it would not go in this direction. So a few phone calls were put out by some members of the community, two other members of this subcommittee, part-time resident, survivor board, and then today, actually on the 15th, we've got another letter. Now I won't read all the deer to, but it's the same people. At P-traps, September board meeting we were appraised to have and discussed conversations that took place during the test force committee meeting which included the test forces recommendation concerning the formation of a new five or one C-3 non-profit corporation to handle the S-H projects going forward. As we understood at that time, the test for committee meeting included a discussion concerning whether or not there should be part-time resident representation on the non-profit board, and that a decision was made by a majority of the test for committee to not include such representation on the initial board of organizers. Further recent discussions have resulted in our clarified understanding that part-time representation may be considered for the full board. Thus in good faith, we apologize for and rescind our previous motion and wish to express our gratitude and strong support for all the work done by the test force. We hope that the nonprofit organizing board will see the merits and benefits, including part-time residents' representation on the forebord in the near future, respectfully yours the same folks. So again, this has come about and it made me feel a little better when I got this. But again, it was one of those things where I was concerned that when someone's not selected, they decided to pull up their models and go forward and challenge what we had been working so hard on. And at the same time it was something where I felt that it was personally an opinion that maybe one or two members had on that task force committee that didn't get chosen felt in the front and wanted to let us know. I just think that it's something that Communion needs to be aware of. At this point in time, I'm not going to, you know, elaborate more than reading these out. I think Council has the opportunity if they'd like to make a comment on their own. Let's... What I'll say tonight. John Wilkinson. What I'll say tonight. John Wilkinson. Yeah, one of the comments I'd like to make is on the response letter that we got asking to be rescinded. One of the things that really upset me in the first letter was the last sentence it said that the part time residents advisory board will not participate in or endorse any related fundraising activities. And I know the letter was rescinded, but that particular comment was not addressed. It was more about not having representation on the Ice Age non-profit committee. I really want to know that this community supports what has been just a tremendous scientific discovery in snowmass village. I mean, it's of international significance. We've had scientists from all over the world coming here to study the site and to think that we absolutely need the help of everyone in this community to build what is arguably one of the most important scientific discoveries for our town. So I would like to- I don't think it's rough. They did withdraw the resolution. This is part of the resolution. I understand, but in there withdraw of that, it didn't address that particular part. They just talked about, you know, having picked the people on the board. But I just wanted to make sure that the community knows that we really need their continued support and fundraising help to make this a successful endeavor. I also feel that we may have been lacking in giving more clear direction to the part-time residents advisory board. We set it up in its enabling legislation said it's going to be a mechanism for communicating and educating the town council and the part time residents of Snowmass Village. I really think it's be Havana Pana to give more clear direction on what that means. And I would like to direct this board to have this discussion at their next meeting or so on what they feel the parameters should be on how we can be better enabled to do the communication and education. And keep it more focused on what best we can do to keep that communication open between the council and the Partime Advisory Board. So I'd like to request that from this board is what kind of things would they like to see coming from the council and what kind of things they would like to bring back to us in in what manner. Because it seems to me it's been more of a free for all they do great meetings, they've done great outreach, I see them up on the mall on Thursday night concerts. I really believe that this is a great committee to have in our town because we do lack that communication between part time homeowners and our council, and I welcome their input, I just want to be a little more succinct on what the expectations are from both sides. John, I think that's probably a good discussion discussion point at some point in the future, maybe not being November 7th, but I think it's some future meeting in the near, you know, the next three months or so we should be able to have that discussion. And again to be clear, your council having a discussion with that board of representatives of that board. Talking about expectations. Or do you just want to have a discussion amongst yourselves? I think for starters it would probably be good just for us among ourselves. Because they can watch and you know, trade attention. I don't think we need to invite them to the table. But at some point after that I think it would be a good move to have them come in. Okay. Express what we have, you know, would have recently let them know or direction we're going. I just maybe ask for feedback on this, but in advance of our discussion, maybe for me, at least it would be helpful to hear something out of that group as to what they do, what they've been doing, where they've been effective in that charge. So I think it would help inform our conversation and whether they're here or not I'd like to have some of that information up front. Okay, John Dresser. Bill, I know that November 7th, it's not really a great time and you kind of indicated that the council doesn't want to take that up. I would just encourage the council to take it up at your soonest opportunity. Being as it will be very soon that the town clerk will be advertising for the positions that are going to turn over on that board and to encourage applicants To apply for those vacancies that may or may not occur Because I really don't know what it's how it's turning out. I don't know which positions are over But for people that may want to apply to have a clear vision of what this council expects of that board to have a clear vision of what this council expects of that board would be important before we go to that first meeting in January when you're going to you're going to we're going to start accepting applications in in December but you would want them to be clear on what their rules going to be before they would apply. So I would encourage you to do that sooner than later and I don't know that it's really a long discussion. Yeah. I mean, and we've had some strategic discussions with that group and we could attempt, well, we could ask them, you know, what do they believe have been the accomplishments and what have they achieved as a piece of background information for you. Very good. Very good. I mean, how long is our meeting on the 7th? I mean, it's the budget. Well, you, well, right now you don't have, again, our time frame for the packet for the 7th. All right. So maybe the second meeting is November. I think there's an opening potentially. We could take a look at our second meeting November. Certainly our first meeting December. Okay. Let's do that as soon as possible. Yeah. Yeah. And the meeting is council feel that maybe we should have them at our initial conversation. Jason sort of brought a big point. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not opposed to it. I mean, they're part of the town. Why not have them here? Okay. Councilor S. D. Yeah. I get to. Yeah. I'll get to. Yeah. Okay. We'll try and get obviously attendance and participation will be important as well. That's scheduled. So thank you Jason for. Anything else? Mr. Wilkinson for Council comments. We've been approached by a city in Japan to be a sister city of snowmass. And Mark and I have talked about it. We've had several emails back and forth. And what we talked about is going to an Aspen sister city committee meeting and just talk to them about the potential going forward. And it's still on our burners, but we're going to see if it's something that we is appropriate for our town moving forward. Just kind of, as just a bit of history, we did do a review on the formal sister city process, what's involved, what the cost was, and at that point you kind of took the pass. Is that what two years ago or a year ago? And it might have been two years ago or a year ago? It might have been two years ago, a year and a half ago. We have probably ought to pull the dust off of that, but I'd like to go to the sister's study. I just wanted to mention. I had John and I talked about going over to one of their meetings. I don't know where they meet. When? Sister's city room in the house. So Russ could you find out when the next meeting is and see if we can get on the agenda? It would take the free time. The agenda should be the passman's. Yeah, we want to be. What would you on the agenda to show this to us? Well, I think we'd want to be on the agenda because we'd want to discuss what has been brought forward to us and to gates of react to have a conversation with them on that opportunity. Could you pull out the stuff from two years ago and then that'll give us probably a framework for what we'd like to discuss with them? I don't. Yeah, that's easy. Okay. So memo. Okay. Any else, John? No. Fred? Very quickly. I think it's fair to say that all of us on council were quite upset by the first P-Trad letter. And I am very glad that they wrote the second one. Thank you. Okay. Motion for adjournment. So moved. As Fred, second by. Second. Jason. Okay, motion for adjournment. So I'm moved. Fred, second by. Second. Jason, all those in favor? Hi, any opposed? Thank you very much. It was a good night. Thanks for the time. Executive decision. you you Thank you.