Your doctor or they may as well be in my minutes of my time. Very expensive. I can't do it. You must make a profit on you. Yeah, still. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going a circuit that I'm having a circuit that I'm having a circuit that I'm having a circuit that I'm having a circuit that I'm having a circuit that I'm having a circuit the first here here here here here here here here Second item is for the public non-agenda items Are there any we went up there that would like to speak to our non agenda do not see me hands raised so we will move on to council updates Mr. Cooker nothing Mr. Wilkinson nothing at this moment Mr. Cooker nothing. Mr. Wilkinson. Nothing at this moment. The only thing I, for, it really, any council updates, we're just having a Santa on the mall, or 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, in the mall in base village, come by and say hello. 4 to 6. Oh, 4 to 6. I know the guy. I have a picture, too. Marky. Picture sitting on your lap. Yeah. I would encourage everyone to stop by the Salvation Army bucket, both dead, the snow mass at the center here and also up on the mall. I rang the bell yesterday. Enjoyed to talk to a lot of guests coming in from out of town. So please feel generous during this period of time for our salvation army. Thank you. Jason. I just want to say quick thanks to Jack Rafferty and Tom Yokem. Got the boards up at the ice rink down at the rodeo grounds this weekend. And a first layer of ice down. So I don't know when exactly it'll be ready to skate on but we're getting there. They're working great. Give you a little update a little later on that. Very good. Interference issue John. Okay. Next item we have item four. This is a review of the P-Trab expectation rules and actions with the P-Trab board. we have a couple folks on Skype at least one three three what did I just do here I just got everybody off here uh John oh no why don't we go ahead and press down we lost uh grir there we lost John a while ago he's kind of frozen unless he's always smiling and he's and he is just on, how long is that going to turn up the volume up again? That will help, please. Oh good. Yeah, he's just on, he's not on video. OK? So welcome. So I'm going to try to be sure to hear it here. Let's see what you guys want to come up to. Yeah. Swipe through the microphone on the table here. It guys want to come up too? Yeah. Swipe the microphone on the table here. Be great. It's easy. Easier targets. There's only two chairs. Oh, I'll pull one from behind you there. Hi, Greer. Hi, John. Hi, I'm Victor Blue and Thal, John Mikkelman. You guys know all of us? Michael and Mike Oman. I'm sorry, John. He's a good friend, you know? Yeah, I can tell. So we've got, you know, a dozen pages that you've probably looked at. But I don't think we need to go through it paragraph by paragraph. There's short of it is we've got the mission statement and the ordinances that were produced. And we've been working for a half a dozen years trying to be a liaison between the part timers and the full timers. People tell me things have maybe become a little less tense. Partial leaders have all developed a variety of things. At times? At times, though. Oh, thank you for correction, Billy. And we really want to see how we can work with you guys to be more productive to represent the part-timers who obviously don't get to vote and aren't going to. And to meantime, offer our support both as interested parties and where we have a special knowledge. It's a special knowledge. Great, Victor. You know, one of the things that I do get asked from time to time by other elected officials throughout the Colorado Association of Skitowns and locally here, they hear that we have this type of organization. In some of them are kind of concerned and nervous about trying to start something similar in their own community. And I tell them, I think it's a benefit for all of us to be able to sit down, have a board of members who have lived in the village, care, have compassion for their home, maybe a second home, generally, it has to be, to be on this board, of course. But there's nothing to be afraid of to you know have those discussions that have you folks in the room and talking with us. And so I personally feel really strongly supportive of what you gentlemen and ladies do from time to time. As we have a couple of you here on Skype, well three people on Skype, so we're testing out this new technology. But I think it's great that we can do this nowadays in this new technological time. Mark, you do? Yeah, I always had some questions. I would be interested in knowing how active are our part time citizens with P-Trab? Do they engage on a routine basis? Do is it just a core group or how does it really work? Because I used to be a part timer. Before P-Trab? I think all of us, they're unofficial communication. We all are participants in the community. We see people. They know we're involved. So they bend our ear, ask us what's going on on things. And that happens fairly commonly in our course. Do you have a list of all the part timers house? How does it work? We have an electronic list. OK And so when we have communications, we send it out through the list. Actually, your staff. Thank you. We're in my commercial. Your staff helps us do that. Okay. And they've been very cooperative in that regard. And then once in a while, I've had someone who I don't know from Adam send me an email or something asking a question and I Found it's been productive because you know they're complaining I remember one person complained about the rec center and they they didn't have Flexible fee schedules and I did a little research. You know, I don't think that's true There's about ten different fee schedules and that person explained how they wanted to use it And I said hey, it is punch cards that work just like that. You're golden. And so you went from having an unhappy person out there to someone with more information and who could use the facilities. So you send out emails or we have a lot of friends at our part time, home owners. And I always encourage them to be active in P-Trab. But the question is, you know, best of my friends. There's other people that probably come and have bought condos and homes and don't know about you. What other things you've got? The question we have two events a year that are public events, both summer and winter, where we invite all part-timers and actually we get a number of full-timers to show up because we usually do panels, we've done them on property taxes, village taxes, sales taxes, real estate. So that goes on. We have web pages that are on the towns. There are links in there that have their meeting minutes and just notes and all sorts of stuff. So that we put a lot of stuff up there and we do send out communications to our email list. Lessly keeps that and administers that. That's wonderful. Sounds like it's got a good communication system. Is he what's Marky right now? Okay. I'm the rookie in the group. And so I know the least. So that means I can pretty much mouth off. But good. Pretty good. No comment, man. What's different? But I think there's a lot more we can do. And the only problem that I see doing more is doing it with no budget. This P-Trab could do a newsletter. This P-Trab could do more, I think, to help the local tradespeople. This P-Trab could be more visible. But it's hard when you don't, you know, the guy with the deepest pockets is Mel. And I hadn't seen him take his hand off his wall. You ever heard of Michael Moon Chemical Operation? Right in the down. But there is a lot more we could do, and we don't feel handcuffed for ideas. We feel handcuffed for time, and we feel a little bit hand cuff for finances. If any second homeowner hasn't heard of us, it's our fault. And I think we need to do more. Well, that's a good point, John. And to that end, why can you not solicit contributions from the second homeowners since they're year constituents? I'm the rookie. I made that clear. Well Fred, I think the second home owners are already paying taxes. So if they, if we did need a budget, it would be legitimate for the town to consider giving it to us because it's just like the town pays for the council and other activities. But I'm not sitting here saying we won X thousands of dollars at this point. We don't have that. But you know, it's in John's just raising something that maybe would be good. And maybe we could do it through the SOMS, and maybe we could do it through our email list. But that would be my off the cuff response to you. In better times, a few years ago, we did have, I think, a line item budget. We still have 8,000. Well, we get money now through Russ's budget. We had more before, you know, there's, he provides for us when we need some. That's what I thought. We did have more, but then the, I think there was a recession or something that affected most people, that affected us and you. So we cut back a little bit. We wouldn't expect you to know about the recession at all. I mean, I think John confirmed that a minute ago, so. So we cut back, but in the past, we kind of lived within our means and we've had money, particularly when we do our two annual events because we usually do like a reception and we try to get it donated. But John's idea about doing a newsletter I think is a good idea. I don't know what costs are attached to that. But we probably ought to look into that because it's a way to reach more people than you know than we probably now First step to get something written that's somebody wants to read you know, so He just said he'd volunteer to write it didn't say anybody want to read it Well, it's always gonna be a start you know when you ask him daily news start off in a one page There is a cost of mailing no, let's go away from mailing even It's like let's just talk about email Because I know a number of folks I I am a number of folks who don't understand email. And I've even got some people in the pines who don't do email. So there are a few as around, but personally newspapers, everybody's moving to an electronic form. And if you don't need to spend money on postage and that kind of stuff, you can write it, blast it out. Do you remember? Is there someone when we have them all electronically, that is true. Yeah, we don't have a full list. We only have the people who signed up for our list. And we've solicited people to sign up. And that's always tricky because the condominium associations don't want to share that. And that makes sense. So it's been a challenge for us. I don't remember how what do we have 600 people in a list or so, but you the playboy started off with a very small list too I can do that Let me finish my idea. I know there's one of the things that I'd like to do. And I think I've heard from the council meeting, oh, that's cute. That was, I was the queen in that year. I'd like to do this. I'd like to find a way to support the local merchants and trades people. So in this newsletter or call what you want, there'd be a page of coupons. And let's say the sneaky's in this booklet, we've got to get them to read it. And I'll open it up. There's coupons in here that you can use 10% off on one meal, it's sneaky's or whatever. And we'd go to the vendors around here. And I think we could raise the UC's rates here. And actually if they'd help us pay for it, which I don't think they're going to want to do that start with, but it could be really beneficial to the town from a tax base to see. So that was my concept. I didn't think about doing it by email because I like clipping coupons and, you know, I'm old fashioned. That's okay. But we would need some help. We have those all electronically. Yes, we have less than we can have. You have a list of about six percent out of what it's like. That's the kind of thing I want to present. We need to present to count. Can't you just go to the county tax records and determine who are the property owners that you don't have? So you have a full list of part time homeowners? I don't know how easy that is for you. It would know better than that. That's pretty simple. That could have been done. Could have been done. I have email addresses, I don't think. No, it wouldn't have that. No, no. But your post office boxes. Anyway, that's the kind of thing we need to come up And that would improve the communication and I think I'd have a side benefit for the town Yeah, good. I mean I think that anything else from Colleen and all there A lot of second I just hung up on them Thanks, Doug You guys know that we can't see you though. Hold on. I got to get you up on the screen here John's here So John and we'll start off with you John What do you think of what you've heard just under the first opening five minutes? How about Colleen? Colleen, are you guys there? Colleen is here. And it's been a little bit hard to hear just when people are speaking the microphone. So in terms of my reply, do you want it limited to what I've heard in terms of how to contact part-time residents? Right. I think we've made enormous strides partly in terms of communicating through homeowners associations because a lot of the homeowners association maintain those lists more easily than we ever possibly could. So that has been one way of doing it. And then getting emails, for example, when we were doing the concert table, we were asking for emails. And then we also have other socials and other opportunities like on the webpage where people can sign up. So that has all been wonderful. There are always going to be people who do not want to share emails. And the only way to reach them is either with the mail. And we have done mailings in the past with marketing. And that has been very successful. And then when we do advertising in the SNOMS, sound that also helps. And then when we do advertising in the snowmess, that also helps. But I think there will always be some people that we cannot reach, and that's true in any situation. That's right, Liz. We have made great progress, I think, in reaching as many people as we can and will continue to expand that as we can. And I think we've done a good step here, even with initiating another level of technology being able to communicate with you as well. And I thank you for, you know, doing this test with us. We can anyone here, John? Me? Yes, we can, John. Go ahead. Okay. We've had to go through the process of convincing people that they, that we have something to say to them, because they've lived in a different economical side times when they really didn't want to hear anything, they just wanted to come enjoy themselves. And we've gone through the process of giving them information that they really didn't know they wanted. And now they are in a transition period where they are, if they haven't already become more receptive of information, they are about to, are going through a different time when they will be more receptive of information. Okay. Enough. And Greer? We don't have. Greer, we don't. Greer, we can't hear you. You're uh... Looking good. No audio for Grere it says. No audio for Grere. I don't know what I think. How do you hear me? How do you hear me? Yep. Okay. Um... No. I... I... I just wanted to add a couple of things in terms of communication. We've had very good response from management companies who are willing to send our emails and our invitations and so forth notices about our meetings out to their clients. And the other thing that I am impressed with is the receptivity of second homeowners to our meetings, particularly when we provide access for them to the heads of S ski co, for example, the heads of snowmass, a town of snowmass village. For many people this is the first and only time they have to ask questions directly of the mayor or of the council people who are in attendance. So I think over the years as John has said, people realize that there is value in keeping in contact with Petrob. Okay Fred, John I really commend you on that idea of a newsletter. Getting aside, I think since you have a basis, you've got a base of emails, 600 or so. That's a pretty good number. And if as Greer says, people are willing to either share the, if management companies are willing to share that with you or send them out themselves, I think, and I think what will happen once you start doing that is there'll be a two-way conversation because you'll get emails back. And in terms of starting a new form of communication with second homeowners, I think that's a fabulous idea. I think Fred's right. I think if you provided a good newsletter that the management companies could then say, well, we'll send it out to the people and let them get back to you. You probably get a lot more and, you know, good writing also helps too. What any of our, what any of our, I, you know, I have a normal home, I have a normal home PC. I got one here. I got one at home. I don't know if it would handle 600 600 Oh We just need the text and we can take care of that's perfect You need an electronic at least you don't have to load it right? Okay, that's fine. I know you could do that for it. Yeah, that's great. They've done a good job of that for a while Well, you know, we sort of say in things they don't like. We sometimes edit those things, don't we, but yeah. No, but it is good information, I think, to get out there. And I think if you guys and Gals, you know, can put together some like good newsletter that can be some good dialogue of what's going on. Are you going to pose for our first center film? I'll give you a picture. But you know, we need to get some some way to get them to read it. Yes. I'll take that picture. That picture might take you off, but that's probably the wrong direction. Or scare them away. But the thought is if we put some coupons in there from Sneaky's or coupons from Village Market or something, well they have at least for a while they used to have these snow mass bucks that the marketing committee used to pass out. If you can somehow get that incorporated into an email, they'll certainly encourage people to read it. Would they be redeemable anywhere in snow mass? In that case we'd have to go to all the merchants and all. Well, that was a marketing board program. That wasn't anything. Good market. There was a dollar spent to take care of that. And let's, you know, you got to watch again. When you guys want money for some of this stuff, we have to be very careful because we've had cut a lot of things and stuff. Well, with no postage, as you mentioned, I don't see the cost of this thing being exorbitant. No, it's just the time to put together a good information would be good. Okay. It takes something. You know, I will just go out in the room here and say that, you know, in the last, and I guess I'll direct this with, you know, a couple of the old folks, We had this letter from you guys here about the mammoth stuff. And in my time, that was the hardest thing that I was thinking of in our conversations with you guys. Because honestly, it felt to me personally like there was a threat going on that we had done something in you guys, because it was signed by your board, we're threatening to, we're not going to support fundraising through the town for this mammoth special, you know, this mammoth deal. And to me at that point, I was like, let's close this thing down. This isn't what in my mind this board should have been about. It was good dialogue and I would think it was important to get your feelings, Colleen, and the rest of you, but what anything the town directed anybody to do and so it felt like to me that somebody came off half-cocked and so I was more willing to say like hey they didn't get the whole story so let's have some good discussion about next things that we get into you know we're gonna have hard hard discussions about you know number of things in our lives here in the village. Some things you guys aren't going to want to support if I wanted to put in another double the size of the Rec Center and you know, go after property taxes and stuff. And those are things I recognize that we gotta be real careful of and you know, we don't need to kill the golden goose that we have here. We all need to work together. We need to find things that, because I know you guys and Gals do support a lot of things that do go on here, and you have questions about others, which is legitimate. But just when, you know, when I get a letter like that I got, that we all got, it was really hard for me personally. I know a few other members had a similar discussion, but I just wanted to cross that bridge a little bit today, just to say look, that's not as I thought we were. Well, we all might have different, one of the things about us, I think, we're probably similar to you. We don't always agree amongst each other. And sometimes we don't formulate our thoughts collectively as well as we should. We need internally to approve upon that. And I would like to take that little stumble all call it on the Tusk Force as something that we all need to work together. We thought this was an important issue. I think that at this time, Petra went off a little too fast and a little too far. And we apologized for that. We would throw the letter and issued another one. You actually, I understand it, what's something's out. You can't really take it back. You can say you're taking it back. So we understand that. But I think the goal here, believe I may, and all of you, is we want to figure out how to work better with you. We'd like you to be soliciting our input where you think appropriate and on issues that we think are important to the people that we represent, thousands of them, substantial portion of your tax revenue, of course. We want to be able to stand up. We understand that we're challenged. We're half a dozen people. It's not clear if we represent the 3,000 part-timers. Just as I would say, it's not clear on every issue that you represent all the voters. You're elected. We were not. There's a difference there. But I would like to take this as a starting point. And if you all want to kick us a little bit over something that happened in a pass, go at it. But I don't think there's anything to gain from it. No, I think any to gain. I guess my point was, if there is something that somebody feels strongly about, say it to us. But try it, you know, I guess when it came from the board, to me it was a little bit more offensive that it was something that, you know, we were, we had orchestrated and it was like, where's this coming from? So that said, I think everything has gone well and I'm wondering, what kind of things have your membership asked you to say? What are they inquiring about? What kind of things are they want to know more about? What can we do better for you to say? How does this two-way communication street work so that you have some good information that You may be wondering about how to get answered other than us twice a year coming and sitting down and talking with you. I can, part let me answer. Oh, good job. I have a very good friend. It comes from Cincinnati. I've known him for 40 years. And when I first elected a peat-travel, I said, his name is Bob. And I said, Bob, what is it about snowmast that bothers you the most? Look, I'm a rookie, I can ask all kinds of things. I can't really embarrass myself. Oh yeah. So I asked him that question and he said, what bothers me the most is taxation without representation. That's not the answer that I would have... I expected that answer. I said the closest thing we have to that. And we're probably a hell of a lot better off than most small towns. Is we do have a P-traum? Okay? It is the best conduit that the non, this part time homeowner has to get to council. And so I said to him, that is why I joined this board. He says, great, how can I help? He is in front of you in a couple weeks to become a member of this board. And that's, but that is the number one thing that I hear. And I hear it repeatedly. Oh, sure. Well, but do consider yourself a whole lot better off being a second- second homeowner here than you would be in most others' details. That's correct. And I think the fact that this board is established is living proof of that fact. That's what I told him. He will be in front of you in a couple of months, in a month, February. His name is Bob Fike, a wonderful guy, PhD in pharmacology, loves snowmass. Absolutely loves this place. Been coming here for as long as I have. So I think when you ask, well, what are we hearing? That's the number one thing. And I think this P-Trab is the best answer to their question. Along that line. One second. We're moving now first and then to Corin. Is that line, we're going to mail first and then to call in. Thank you. Okay. Along the similar lines, most of you remember probably, yeah, I think it was in 2007 and I think it's attached to the packet that you guys got from us. RRC did a survey of the entire town, including second homeowners. And Greer on our behalf, for our group, went through and synthesized a lot of the things in there that related to part-time residents. I think it's, we periodically take a look at it with respect to our constituents. I think, you know think that was 2007. Probably would be a good idea if there's any money floating around anywhere to think about doing another survey, and updating that survey. Because we got a lot of valuable information out of it regarding part-time residents. And so I would call that to your attention to think about not only for part-time residents and so I would call that to your attention to think about not only for part-timers but for full-timers in the village. It was a very helpful process. The other thing is sort of one of my missions and I hear it from a lot of people and actually it came out in some degree in the survey is is what we try to do, I think, is create a sense of inclusion where everybody is included, part time and full time. I think that was sort of the heart of the mission, to try to bring together the sort of antagonistic divide that existed before a p-trab. It was palpable then. It's not fully cured now, but it's a lot better than it was before we got started. And I think we ought to play on that. And when I say inclusion, when you guys are making in-girls, are making decisions, and I stuck my nose out a couple of weeks ago when you were talking about the marketing board. I think there's a lot of talent, not me, but a lot of people that aren't sitting necessarily here in that part-time ownership group, that could bring a lot of creative talent, other kinds of talent. And so when you're putting together advisory boards and so forth, a couple of them, I know that financial advisory board is open because Colleen served on it for a time. But things like marketing, it just seems to me as a ripe to have that group of people that if they do have professional credentials, be able to apply and then you guys will make the decision. But I like that idea being inclusive and including them. And it will give them the feeling not just that they have petra, but they're more vested in the community if they can participate. Let's go to Colleen and Fred. Thank you. And I'm going to take a little bit on what Mel said. But first, I just want to back up a little bit. And I think I will apologize for the letter. But I think that what we had tried to talk about in that letter was more regarding the inclusiveness. And the fact that we are here today just dialoguing about it, I think, says a lot in how far we have come. That you are receptive and that the rest of the teacher, our members were receptive to come together and talk about this because I think that has been critical. The letter came out of something that was very divisive and there was a misunderstanding about that. And even though I had written the letter as chair on behalf of, no one had come back and asked, you know, what is, you know, where did this come from? So I think there was a miscommunication at that point, and now we are back on track and we've begun the dialogue to heal that. But I think, as Mel had mentioned, the one thing that I have heard repeatedly is this lack of inclusiveness. It's continuing today, unfortunately. I think we have made significant progress about it. And I think that just you're welcoming us into the Council's meaning today is just evidence of that. But we really need to have the vision and the direction from you as Council that this is going to heal, that we will be a healed and inclusive community. It's in our town aspiration statement, but if it's not coming from you and if it's not trickling down to staff and to others in the community, there's no hope for change here. So that is what I'm really hoping is one of the things that comes out of this dialogue and what has come before and will go in front of us. Is that direction and that vision from you because that can be your legacy as counsel that you are the ones to really bring this divide. You know, I call it the continental divide because it's written back here, but it's more than that. It's the part-timers, it's the full-timers and the localism then there's the guests. How do we heal that? And I look to you, and I ask you to think about how we do that. One thing that we have mentioned in the packet, and I had a conversation with one of the council members, was that perhaps a retreat that helps council come together, all of the board members come together, John Dresser, Russ and others on staff to really have a cohesive and inclusive dialogue on what are the expectations, what are the resources, what is the expertise that everyone can contribute and build that network and then everyone will be trickling out and it will be a ripple effect that we're all under your guidance bringing that out to the town. And I think you're right and the only lesson I'll do to say before I go to Fred is, we will have difficult discussions from time to time and that's great. I think we need to have those. I don't want to be shying away from having those hard and tough discussions because I think we need to have those. You know, I don't want to be shying away from having those hard and tough discussions. Because I think, you know, that's the only way we bridge this gap and we understand your feelings because your feelings are very important to this community. You know, without you guys here, we wouldn't be as successful of an area as we are. So I'm not afraid to say, let's buckle down and have those hard discussions that you may want to have. Fred. To Mel's point about inclusiveness and being on committees, as I think you know, I think you were at the meeting when we had the marketing committee report, there are going to be three brand new advisory committees in connection with the marketing committee. These are not statutory advisory committees or code advisory committees. These are going to be volunteers and the marketing committee said anybody who shows up for one of those committees is going to be on it. So if you've got marketing people, if you've got group sales people, if you've got, I forget what the other one. The third committee? Which, special events? If you've got, I can forget what the other one, the third comment. Special events. I mean, if you've got people with expertise in those areas, I am sure the marketing committee would be delighted to have them on those advisory committees. Just one thing, as I was going to raise it, on that point. I read the language that you're doing second reading on today and the committees. It's not clear, actually it's clear to me that we could not apply even for the committees. And I know what you said two weeks ago that we could, but that language is written. And so it doesn't look like part-timers could apply even for the advisory committees. You might want to think about that when you,, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want to say, I want We saw some marketing. Yes. So if we knew that and we sent out this newsletter, are you any good at these things? We could help the town. But the town has posted on their website. The deadlines coming up this week. That gives us a lot of time. But also these other special rules. I think the deadlines for the board, right? For the boards. For the boards. but not for these little subgroups. I think, you know, from time to time, someone could come in and say, hey, I've got some time and go to that marketing board, and say I'd like to be included for a discussion, at least about marketing, you know, the mountain for the summertime, stuff like that. Russ, do you have any John Wilkinson? Yeah, I just like to get back to the original legislation that created your board. And I was on the council of the time and I supported it at the time and I still support your board and the enabling wording is that it's going to provide a mechanism of communication and education. And that's really what I see your function of is being able to educate the people in the community. And not just part of time homers, I think you touched on that a bit. And I think it's a mechanism to communicate with everyone that has numbers. It's no math phillage. And how do we go about doing that? The news has limited abilities to do the education in our community. And so I'm looking to your group to be able to get the word out in a more succinct and editorial way to say, these are the issues facing the town. These are things that are, and if you have an opinion, let the council know, let the people in the town structure know what your opinions are and any one subject. I welcome the emails back from anyone that has an opinion. And more often than not, I'll read something going, that is a really good point. Whether I agree with it or not, but it is a good point. We like hearing those things. A lot of times, we operate in a vacuum where we get the packet, we, in people that are really interested in any one particular issue show up and talk to us. So in that regard, in looking at your, in the packet, you have the goals, work plans and recommendations, I would certainly look to somehow to frame the skyping cost. Do you talk about that? I don't know how much that is, but I can see why that's an important function of how you can actually operate your board and committee. And when how the town can help you out with that, I would certainly be in favor of that. You talked about liaisons on other boards. I don't know how far we can go with that. I mean, you're certainly free to go to any of the board meetings and be part of the public. You're not going to be asked to leave the room less executive session. But I'd certainly welcome anyone that's on your board that wants to attend any of our board to attend those. And then on the Newtown Survey, if we could do something online, because it is old, it's four years ago now, and it's going to be soon five, that it was last done. And if we could do an online survey, I take them all the time. Espin School District has one right now if you really want to read some interesting questions. That's a good one to go to. But to continue this work towards educating both sides and make sure we're not operating in a vacuum. And then there was a, let's see, it was one last one. I think that's a great idea, inviting homeowner associations to designated one or more of their members to serve as liaison to your board. I think that's another great idea because there's a lot of large associations in this town that don't really participate into the detail that you guys participate in. And that's what we're looking for. Broad basis support of different issues, different perspectives, and opinions back to it. So again, I support your board going forward. I don't want to look in, you know, looking at the river near doesn't do anybody any good, but I think this is where we can say, okay, we stumbled a bit, let's move on. This is where I would like to see your talents to be able to help us make better decisions. Thanks, John. Well said. Anyone else on the council have any other comments for what they've read out of their pack of the sweet journey? You know, when I did go to the town's website, and maybe this is part of our fault, I didn't see a whole lot of information over the last year of notes and minutes. So I went into that part time residence and I saw tabs on different years in 2010. I didn't really see much because I was trying to say, see what you guys had talked about. So if we can keep that kind of stuff updated, I think that will help your membership read on our website, what's going on, what you guys have as a current item of discussion. And I think that there are things that we'll be discussing at this table. We'll go and say, let's throw this to the part-time residents to say, does it make sense to add another lane at the rex center or something? Because I think it is important. Because a lot of these things, if they do become a property tax type item, it is something that you and your membership would like to have some input into. I mean I guess when I hear we don't have representation, it's basically taxing questions I guess are things that come to my mind initially are big things that may be an item of a concern to somebody of you know part-time residents. And I think our interests are aligned with the full-time people almost across the board. I mean, you could certainly pick nits on schools, because most of us don't have school-aged children. But in the main, we're going to be similar. And we'd love to be challenged. You know, if you are considering something, you know, if you can't us, we'd have to go out to our membership and try to collect those opinions and get them informed and then collect their opinions. We haven't done it because you haven't asked that question of us. But we try hard. Well, I guess like today, we're gonna talk a little bit about capital projects. And maybe those were the kind of things that we can say, hey, we're gonna be talking about capital projects. And maybe those were kind of things that we can say, hey, we're gonna be talking about capital projects in a month. And unfortunately, we can't put our documentation together. Really, I mean, our staffs work on it like, they normally do just before the time we get it. So maybe there's something in there that we can say, you know, we're gonna talk about this and we're gonna request three weeks to say what do you guys and gals think about you know things we're looking at. That would be exciting. We'd welcome that Billy and we'd work hard at it because if you're reaching out we're going to try to respond. Mill? Billy just two things to respond on two things. I forgot to mention when you were talking about communication, our two big events each year, Russ and Ronda, make available to us, Granicus, for those big events. So those get broadcast, they get archives. So those items are there. You're right. I think we probably haven't been putting a lot of written things on this year, but I think we will get back to doing that. We're trying to get access to be able to make those entries into the website. I think Leslie is ready to teach one of us how to do that. So we will be able to do that. And the other thing is the point that you and Victor just talked about, you know, in our enabling language, the coming up with things for us to do is to side it. But in the past, it's only been really functionally one-sided. So if all of you have things you would like us to do, please bring them to us. In the past, that hasn't really happened. So we've been left to coming up with our own areas of interest and projects. But when you're getting into a big area, I mean, someday hopefully base village will come back to life, I can assure you would like to participate in that dialogue and discussion. What are those kinds of counsels? Yes. But if I had a list of the membership of people who are part-time residents, and I could look down and see how our gross was CEO of limited and you know. Victoria's Secret. Victoria's Secret. I've got that out of all the the picture shoots I've already talked about that But you know that the council could have a list or even you know say hey, you know, we're gonna talk about Trying to bring these groups to shoot in the snowman's village Maybe I could talk to Howard about this and how could I marketing bring those folks here to to show off the grand You know vistas of snowman's Village or I could talk to somebody about You know, how do we bring chemical? You know scientists warfare the town or do a number of things You know if I can have a list of people that you know Right, because I know there is because I work on other computers and so it's sort of like I know they're here. How do we? Open that door? I think it'll be fantastic because all you and the gals here have, you know, have a heck of a lot of great experiences that we need to take advantage of. Well, we can all work on Howard, Fred Cantu, to do the first Victoria Secret here in Cast at their first layout for their next catalog here in Council. Change Bruce. No, no their next catalog hearing counsel. No, no, no, this would be a very boring shut. For the newsletter. Done. To the part time owner, homeowners know who you guys are. I think so. Okay. You know, you don't, they don't vote for you. They don't know, but they stop us. You know, I get stopped by a number of folks that have different places I go and they tell me that they are second homeowner. So the word's gotten out. And so they're identifying. Please don't stop that. Keep them doing that. Well, you know, I think we all recognize that it is a large part of our community. Yeah, and there's certainly a way to watch us any Monday or any time they want. You know, if you sit out your newsletter, in case people don't know, all these meetings are broadcast on the computer and then recorded and they're available for everybody. Anybody's got an interest in a particular issue? Should turn us on? No, no really help get that going in this valley. And so I need to, you know, put all your pictures one a month or one quarter and the end of some kind of a newsletter or maybe Mel can do something in his column, I don't know, you know, Mel's not a lot of this column. Yeah. Maybe else, Counselor. You guys, you may have the same identity crisis as we do with the part-time homeowners. And I think that's what we're talking about. Very good. And I'll go actually to the Skype folks. Colleen Greer, John, anything you guys want to we're going to finish us up in a few minutes. And I'm going to go to Russ next after you guys. Colleen? No. I think the idea of a newsletter is very hopeful. I think what Leslie uses for the town It would work very well for our purpose. One idea would be to incorporate like the snowmass bucks or discount coupons, which would be of the part time residency incentive to open them. And we can also include in the newsletters links to free online surveys as well. So I think it's all very doable. It's going to be a matter of somebody on a feature of having the time and the energy to do it and then also working with Leslie who has just been absolutely phenomenal in helping us to accomplish our goals. Great. Greer? Anything new? Yeah. I would just remind you of the incredible diversity represented by the part-time resident community. Some people are avid on vacationers here in love with the town. Other people on property because they are interested in renting it. As still others are interested in flipping it and making some money. So, you know, when we talk about the part time residents, we really, as a board, have tried to keep all of those diverse interests in mind in trying to represent to you what opinions and ideas are from that community. Very good, John A.T. Muehner. John Barrett, either. At a point in time, when we need to come together and work with the town council and get their input as to what they would like, what you people would like for us to do. We have a changing situation and the ownership has got to change and more money has got to come into the place and that's what we'd like to see happen. And whereas you people view this as your first home, a lot of people are changing their attitudes and not viewing their ownership of property as second homes but as investment properties. And we have come a long way and we're looking forward to supporting this community that we all enjoy very much. And what we're looking forward to is your help with this. That's enough. Thank you, John. And Russ? Well, I know we've always very much welcomed. He trapped kind of communicating out and informing constituents, the community, of issues related to development applications. However, I know there's been a question about actually taking formal positions on development applications. And John might want to speak to that. Well, it was and I would just urge from a legal point of view that the board carry out its mission and its establishment clause. And that is carry out such duties as directed by the town council and generally to provide a mechanism of communication and education between the residents of real property who don't live here in the town council. My concern comes up in the land use plan when we get an official resolution of the Petrabe stating they feel one way or another about a land use application that's pending before town. And when the board is an officially designated board about a land use application that's pending before town. And when the board is an officially designated board of the town and they take a position and that position is reduced to a resolution submitted to the town, if the town and the council or the planning commission, whichever board it may be, takes a position contrary to that. And that becomes controversial and it becomes appealed by either side, the people that get turned down, the people that didn't get heard, whatever it is. And the position that the Town Council, or the Planning Commission, is taken, is contrary to what Petra has done. And that appeal goes through the process and ends up in court. It is detrimental to the case of defending the town that, well, you know, you've got an official board that tells you to do it this way, and this board didn't see it that way. And I would prefer, and, you know, this is in keeping with what I understand the mission to be, that if the board has taken a position that you encourage your membership to represent themselves here at those hearings, rather than an official position being taken by the Petra board saying, we are against this development, we don't believe, for whatever your reasons are, it then becomes an official statement sanctioned by the town because of the official nature of the board. It could cause problems in a future land use litigation. I talked to that Billy. Victor, go ahead. Yeah, well, John, I appreciate you bringing that up. We don't want to function with a muzzle and we don't want to harm the town and expose the town to future litigation and I would suggest and request that you join us at one of our p-trave meetings and perhaps we can work this out in a way to meet both of our goals and needs. Well, I understand. You've never attended a p-trave meeting. No. And we haven't invited you. So that's not your fault. That's true, too. No, and my only advice is, and it's really to the council to pass on to the board because I don't really represent that board. I mean, if I were directed by you to do so, I would. I don't want to squelch any input from your membership. I just don't want, because that's great. I'd have no problem with your board sending out a mass email to everybody you have saying, the board has discussed this. We believe that we are against it for these facilitating being the mechanism for that communication. But taking the official position that then becomes submitted and is part of the record, this troublesome to me. So I'm not trying to squelch any opinions or anything like that. I just would like it to make the town in a better, more defendable position that you encourage your people to, I mean, send an email. Because when those things come in, those are opinions that are valid opinions from people that are within the community, but they aren't more dignified with an official statement by your board. And that's the issue. That's the issue. Wait, I want to talk about it for a second because this is, I'm concerned here. I mean, based upon from, you know, how we were established. I mean, we've been in business six years. We've taken positions on any number of issues. There's a lot of issues there going to be coming up that sometimes it land use issues and sometimes aren't. Our role is really to represent through communication part-time residents. If they have a concern about a certain issue, we have to be able to communicate that, John. I don't know where... That's not what that is. No, it says. Well, you are the mechanism of communication and education. Right. And if they communicate to us, we're gonna pass that communication on it. They're concerned about it, and it's no different than the way we've been functioning for secures. I mean, I don't think we're doing anything different than in terms of that two-way communication. I mean, there's a lot of issues that are gonna be coming up in town in the future, assuming we get back into that area, that we'll be tying our hands if we can't have a role in that. I mean, it's not feasible for most part-time residents to be sitting here at a council meeting. It just doesn't happen. But they do have opinions, and so we're trying to relate those opinions. Now, you know, I'm willing to sit down as Victor says, but I think we have to be able to pass along those communications and those concerns as any other advisory board. I mean, we have no decision making power on anything. We're merely an advisory board, like any other advisory board, the financial advisory board, I guess they could take a position on something that related to a land use code item if they wanted to or the marketing department, the marketing board. Victor, do you have anything else you want to talk about? I think this is something we can talk about in essence. But I don't want to walk away. I think this is a serious issue that if we were to just go along with that, I think it takes away any reason for Petra. This is Blink. Can I jump in? Sure. I think there are two issues here. One is the substance and one is the process. I think in terms of the substance, what is communicated, obviously we have to fall under the free speech and everything else. And in order to have legitimacy, there has to be that expectation that it will be on its communication. That's just one issue. I think my understanding is that's what Mel is getting at. I think the process, however, is where we have proposed this retreat because we don't fully understand or I think we've tried to understand as best we can what the open meetings laws, for example, are. And that's why we have proposed this retreat in terms of having John come talk to the different boards to really let us know what is expected, what is required, how do we go about even noticing the meetings, how do we go about reaching the people that we need to reach to notice the meetings. Do we need to take resolutions? Do we need to have formal minutes? I don't think that has ever been clarified. You know, I know when we started Mel and myself, we're really trying to work and figure that out. But as new people come on board, that's forgotten. And that's something that I see the town doing very well with council, you know, having the council retreat every January and bringing forth all of these rules and understandings. But I don't think that's ever happened to systemly with boards. And I think that's the process piece that's lost here, not the substance piece. Jake Leibbred. I'm gonna go Bell. I'm gonna take some issue with you and I want to go back to John's concern because I think it's a very legitimate one. When there's a land use application before us, we are acting in a quasi-judicial capacity. We have legal exposure as a result of that. The board that is charged with recommending land use issues to us specifically is the Planning Commission, not the Marketing Board, not P-Trem. If you as an official board make, submit a resolution, either opposing or favoring whatever the land use application is, and it's disputed and we get into litigation, you have prejudiced the town if you are the wrong side of the issue. And we can't, let me finish, Mel. We can't have that. We can't have you prejudicing the town. John Solution is the appropriate solution. If your members, if you are truly representing your members, and they are saying to you, we are against whatever this land use application is, you should communicate with them and have them email us, have them attend meetings, all of which they have the right to do. But for you to take an official position that could prejudice us is I think unacceptable. Well, I mean, I'm willing to sit and discuss this. I have not seen this as a problem in six years. I don't know where it's coming from. And I know it's not feasible. The reason we were put in place was to be that communication voice because there was no voice for them. So when there is a concern as any other advisory board, we weigh in and we weigh in to the council. We always say is, you know, here's what we're concerned about. You ultimately make the decision. We're not taking a decision-making position. We're just putting input as anybody else makes input, or any other advisory board could make input. We don't get resolutions from those other boards though. We have the questions all the time. Well, we don't have to call it a resolution. That's the concern that it has. That's the concern. If that's all we're calling, if you're just concerned about what we call it, maybe we can call it something else. I guess it goes back to that letter that we got from you guys. Because I had a number of talks with other people who are part-time residents and they go, what the heck is this group talking about? I have no idea why they're sending you this letter and I have you over call you. So it's one of those things where do we morph this thing in this part time as a advisor board into more of a association that has voting rights among the association to where I hear that, you know, the P-TRAB membership, 25 were in favor and 40 were against. Instead of just saying the board says you shouldn't do this, because then it could be Melon's position of this is how we're going to do it and the board says you shouldn't do this. Because then it could be mayor's position of this is how we're going to do it and the rest of you follow along. We admit that particular event was a mistake on our part. For the future, it's going to be John's concern. But we don't have to call it a resolution. I mean, if that's the concern, but we want to be able to communicate those concerns. We will do a better job of canvassing if you think we haven't done a good job. We'll do a better job of canvassing. We don't have to, I don't even, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd, And Mel, I think that's perfectly appropriate. If you want to go out and canvas your constituents and say, listen, we have gone out and of the 600 people, 250 in favor, 400 or guess whatever, that's fine. That's fine. That's expressing their opinion to us. And that's perfectly acceptable. That's a say, we oppose, we as an official board oppose or are in favor of, that's a position that could ultimately hurt us. Jason and Marky and then Victor. Yeah, because I don't think we get official recommendations from other advisory boards unless the council expressly asks them to weigh in on an issue. So that might be another avenue to get there is if you're hearing from a lot of your constituents that they want an official way in on a particular issue, maybe come to the council and request the opportunity to develop a formal recommendation from our time residents. This point is a survey again. Mark, you didn't want anything, Victor? I just want to state that all of this conversation is going back to right where I was 10 minutes ago. Just said Let's have John come over and help us out because we don't want to expose you to litigation But we also don't want to operate with a muscle. I think if there is particular language call it a resolution Whatever that heck is going to make it hard for you guys. That's not our goal We want to make it easy for you But we also if we feel you guys are going in the wrong direction, we want to tell you. And I think we would like to hear those comments. Okay. Anything else? We call this good today? Thank you for having us. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Colleen. Thank you, Greer. Thank you, John. Thank you. Barrett. I think to do the presenters, they have to reset that computer. Okay. Doug, what do we need to do? Yeah, let's take five minutes. We just need to turn it off or... Yeah, is it like that? Or do we need to take a break? I'm working on that. Can you turn it off? I was a word. We have a couple of folks here. Sally's barhawk and John Hornblower. So let's hear from you guys. Okay. Well, we're pleased to be with you and I am currently chair but my two years is up so our group voted in at our meeting John to be our next chair and he was willing to do that which we thought was pretty good. So we're in good shape, we're in good hands going forward and basically this year was much easier for a couple reasons. One is that the whole budget situation is better, so you allocated us a little more money for, you allocated a little more money for the nonprofits, so that helped and we're glad. We're hope the budget continues to pick up for the town. town and the other thing was and we're not sure exactly why but as you looked at your papers you saw what applied last a lot of people didn't apply this year and we're not sure in the past evidently Donna gave her mind or calls which didn't go out this year which you know we decided that the nonprofits it's the same cycle every year right so we could only deal with the ones that came before us. So we were in a position and made the decisions as you saw, based on our criteria as it's outlined and also based on, or the organization's ability to raise other funding. Some organizations are good at raising mega-megabucks on their own, and many of these are smaller organizations that don't have that option. So those were some of the things we factored in, and you have the list of what we decided. And did, was it in the packet the rationale that we gave? Typically, that isn't in the pack. I don't see that. No, that was going to be one of my questions as well as your criteria and what is the tie into snowmass village because I see quite a few names that don't have snowmass in them. Okay, so should we just go through then? Well, I don't think we need to go through it all but I think if we can just you know hear a little bit because I know that this council values your time put into this thing. It's been one of those hard ones when before we had a group like you and the council was doing it, you know, it's pulling at your heartstrings. And I do need to save for the record that Marke has recused herself from this part of the discussion because she found out when she was reading the packet, the whole organization was in there, so she stepped away and hadn't let anybody know. Anyway, I just wanted to put that on the record. And again, just for your reference, on page 15 of your packet is the list of the 13 organizations in the breakout. Giving. Okay, so, call someone. Don't go ahead. No, I just wanted to hear your criteria. What is the tie-in to snowmast village? Okay. Generally, the criteria is that there are non-profit. There's a whole list, but that there are non-profit legally and that. One of the things that we look at is what they are spending the money for. We also look at their budgeting process and what percentage of their revenue are they spending on their operations as opposed to their services is something that we really look at. And then we look seriously at what, how many people are they serving? And they're the grant application specifically asked, how many snow mass village residents or residents have you served? Okay. And if they, if we don't feel like they've served enough, they aren't even considered. The one exception we made to that this time was that we wanted to show support. There was a strong feeling on the committee. Challenge Aspen's military operation. Several people felt that it was very inspiring and that we wanted to support that specific program. And that brings military in from all over the country, although I guess we could make the case that those military protect us in Stomach, as well as I mean the protect our country. So that was one that we had a significant amount of discussion on and decided that one program of challenge aspirin we wanted to give $1,500 for a specifically earmark to that program. So we made an exception to that. I guess you know with that vein of the discussion about the challenge asked from the military you know one of the things I was thinking about this weekend when reading this was the community town puts out a request for donations for the disabled American that's when they do their their some scholarship type things. And I was thinking that we need to do that a little sooner this year, like as soon as possible, put that letter out also. But those there are times that I see things like that that I'd love to be able to say, you know, you guys need to come to us and ask for a donation because that, you know, that helps a lot. And I really get a lump in my throat watching those men and women come here with that DAV and also with the challenge Aspen folks. When I see those people out in the hill and really moving themselves to another level, not only physically, but mentally. Mental side is this whole thing that they can do something, that they never thought they could. And for those kinds of organizations, I personally wish we had hundreds of thousands of dollars to do. But- And actually, the disabled American veterans is a separate organization. And actually the disabled American veterans is a separate organization. The challenge aspect is not, they help that a little bit, but this money is for other activities that have been disabled vets. We just had a number of women here last week, right? It's those kinds of programs. So those are the kind of things that are fantastic that you saw that. Fred and John, I've just got one question. You've sewn. I thought that was strictly in Garfield County do they serve up here as well yeah they served 139 families 28 from Stomach Village really okay great just to welcome yeah when we went to our budget we authorized increasing the grants to 60,000 I believe was the number we went to? Not quite. It was from 40 to 50. Oh 40 to 50. And then we got, if you don't see the math, I was asking quickly why the budget number you see on the spreadsheet is a little higher than that. And we got a donation from citizens for responsible growth Ted Grinda specific. Oh, right. Gave a nice check for this Very good. Okay, and then any other question I have and it's always an issue when I see religious organizations on our list You know, I like to have the separation of church and state and as far as we can go, but I understand there's exceptions to that. So if you could- Well, we have in the past given to Catholic charities. Right. Which supports, because that was the first time it came up for me. I said the same thing and it's Catholic charities. And so do you want to go ahead? I can talk about this. This came up, it was my concern as well. And these two programs are strictly secular. I can talk about this. This came up, it was my concern as well. And these two programs are strictly secular and they're for families who are below the radar in Somas village and there are a lot of them. For the top one item number 12, for example, the family dinners, Somas chap, we expected about 20 families to show up for Thanksgiving, 70. It wasn't Thanksgiving, it was Thursday. It's not the big Thanksgiving. Yeah, Thursday night, skinny dinners, it's like that. Yeah, yeah. So they wanted to open up the community space in the church this completely separate from sanctuary. It's just a community center to the community for kids to come after school and have a place to congregate and form strong bond relationships with whatever background they're from with a non-religious message. And there's a tremendous demand for this in the town. There are kids go home and they play their video games and they have a sense of isolation that this specific program addresses in a secular way and I think it's very strong for the community. Well yeah, the Snowmass Chapel has this matchbox life. I've already seen their brochure because I have a 15 year old son who could certainly use some getting out in town. I appreciate them having some opportunities for the kids in this community. But maybe next year just a little explanation, just a brief little something or other that would tell us. That was actually typed up and I thought that number participants in snow mass village. And when I see snow mass chapel without an explanation, it causes me to have a concern. So I'm glad you have one as well. So sorry, could you just clarify what the two different are first snow mass chapel? and it causes me to have a concern. So, and I'm glad you have one as well. So, sorry. Could you just clarify what the two different, our first no-mass chapel? Because I don't know. The top one is a family dinner. The Smashbox Light Life is a family dinner. Yeah. And then the youth zone is after school program for kids. No, no. Oh, I'm sorry. I got the good one. You go. Yeah. The Smashbox light life is the youth program. And the one that just says Snowmass Chapel is for the family style dinners that they got a much larger turnout than they expected. They're just doing like spaghetti dinners every Thursday night. Right. And there's no religious messaging around these events or programs? No. No, no, this is not a recruitment activity. Just this little, these are. Okay. But you understand the concern. Absolutely. Sally, being on the council, I'm sure you do. So appreciate your being involved in this group. Eighth Heltz, move to approve. Motion to approve. Resolution 37. Resolution authorizing and spending her funds for the budget, for the grant contracts, for the charitable human services organization only. Second by Fred. For the discussion. Just one more clarification, can you just speak to the Little Red School House what their project is or what that sport's going towards? And actually, they're feeling the budget crunch like everybody else and are asking for some help with just operating expenses. And again, they serve local kids. It's the only one in our town. So that's what that one was for. Okay. Anything else? All those in favor of resolution 37, please say goodbye by saying aye. Aye. Those opposed? Who passes unanimously, foro. Thank you. Thank you. Someone go ahead and call this butler back in the room. Please. Thank you. Someone go ahead and call this butler back in the room. Please Next we're gonna move on item six resolution 38 series 2011 FTA grant Motion by mr. Wilkinson second by Jason John you know in the past you've, should I read reading this whole thing? Yes, Bill, you should read every word. You should call me for a consultation if there's anything in that 69 pages. If you don't understand. So, otherwise know that we're going to get a junk or federal money that we usually get. And Dave does a lot of compliance through very good. The certification is in assurances and it has a lot to do with how we are able to run our bus system. I was really asking the title. Do I need to read a resolution of the town of Stonato-Log? Yes. That's part of it. I've been watching other councils and other things going on and it's apparently pretty required. It's required by our charter. That we read this so you have actually you have to read the entire resolution less a copy of the resolution is present in the room for today to review then you're allowed to call it by number and read the title so yeah that's I guess was the resolution of the tennis and was very good to me resolution of the town council of the town of Somersville, excuse me, a resolution of the town council of the town of Somersville, which Colorado authorized in the firing of applications with the Federal Transit Administration, an operating administration or the United States Department of Transportation, four federal transportation assistance authorized by 49 USC Chapter 53, Title 23, United States Code, and other federal statutes administered by the federal transit administration. It has already been moved and seconded. The other thing was digressing a little bit. When I went to the state capital, there was this young fellow sitting there and re-seeing so we're going to quick. Why is he even doing that? Now I know. David. The reason was kind of interesting, actually actually the good old days people couldn't read Is that what it was yeah? Thank you Record Happy to answer any questions this obviously is covering a number of that grant applications that we have submitted We are on October 1st you go into the federal fiscal year so we are already in 2012 On October 1st, you go into the federal fiscal year, so we were already in 2012. The Tigger 2 project was completed in November, so it falls under this category. That's why it's listed there. But basically, this is our admin operating grant and if we get some funding for our capital acquisition for vehicles. Thank you. Any questions today? How much are you asking for? Well, what you asked for and what you get are two of the things. I understand that. We're hoping to get somewhere around 100,000 in for capital in 2012 that may not come through, but in 2013 we looked positioned to do way better than that. So over the two years that might average out. Then annually we get about 190,000 in admin and operating funding. Thank you. Jason? Assuming you've read the 69 pages, is there any significant onerous changes this year or is this pretty much same as we've been doing? It's pretty consistent with what it's been over the last seven years. Russ? I don't know if John had a job or something. No, Russ Gouffer's. I just want to, I know this feels relatively routine and mundane, but I just want to acknowledge Dave. It takes an enormous amount of work and brain damage to go through these grant processes and then comply with the reporting requirements. So there's a lot of work behind a mundane resolution. And then the deal of the FTA or somebody from that organization when they call to say, you're not following, it's been a ledge that you're not following certain things and they go, no we do. But Dave does done so. John? Yeah, I just got a question for you and all these requirements what's come up of late is the use of drivers using cell phones for texting or calling. And I know there was a federal opinion that came out last week as far as that goes. Is there anything in here that is going to be a mandate for our own drivers and snowmass village to be quiet? Currently, we already require that there is no use of cell phones while they're operating the vehicle. We have allowed drivers to step out of the vehicle and operate phones. Now, I know that driving around we've all might have seen someone chatting on a phone and we try to deal with those individuals on a case by case basis. We have posted in the driver's lounge the national transportation safety administration's position paper and the pending legislation where there are penalties that can be assessed on drivers in excess of $2,000. And there's also pen and only T's that can be assessed on organizations that allow such practices in excess of $11,000. So it is a big deal. We are trying to impress that upon our crew and short of body searching and scanning drivers before the intervehicles. We hope that they will comply. But do we have any procedure in our town that is that a requirement for your staffer, is that a townwide requirement? That's a requirement in our implication book. Okay, so is that something that we should take a look at for the town on on a whole including not just bus drivers but anyone driving town vehicles. That should be a town policy it should be for council. Yeah that's in the personnel manual so that hasn't been something the town council. Okay but obviously we're responding to federal laws, federal guidelines when we set those and specifically with transportation. Okay. And state law. I'm going to call the question. There obviously is the new texting law that applies to everybody. I'm texting in use of phones. Okay. Okay. Question. Is there at this point all those in favor of resolution number 38 please signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Are you opposed? Thank you. Moving on item number seven, resolution 36 series 2011 EOTC budget. Resolution of the town council of the town of Stomach Village, Colorado, approving the initial 2012 budget for Pitkin County half sent transit sales and use taxes. Is there a motion? I'm going to. Jason. Second. Second. Mr. Wilkinson. Discussion. Mr. Peckler. Council, this is the budget that you reviewed at the last DOTC meeting on October 20th. We're bringing it forward to you for your approval as each jurisdiction has to adopt for unanimous. Approval by all jurisdictions to approve the appropriated projects. Okay, here's a quote, I missed that meeting. So here's a question for you. Kimellith Sirplus is 11 million over two years, basically. is 11 million over two years, basically. For 2011, it's 10, 160, 2012, it's 11 or whatever it is. Is that correct? Correct, that's the, the, built-ups, the annual surplus that's added to the funding of 615,000 is added on and that's what makes ten. We're still doing that split so much of that excess goes into. If you look on page 29, okay on page 29 the calculation for the amount allocated to entrance to Aspen, the second box, if you will. That is where the formulas that make that reservation are noted. Now, for clarification, the two thirds allocation is made before any discretionary spending. So it's the total amount of revenue, less the committed funding, which is the purple elements up above in the funding uses. And then discretionary projects below that purple line are then considered discretionary. But the allocation for the entrance to Aspen has made before those expenditures. That's why there's a deficit in the calculation below that shows 24,000 in 2012. Or 270,000 in 2011, but that's the pedestrian project at the airport business center. That's just the planning for the project. That's just the airport business center. It's just the planning for the project. That's just the design. Yeah. So at the EOTC meeting, what was the conversation around the free bus service? You were going to have a special committee that we were going to, so we'll need to continue with that discussion. Well, yeah, you know, I was sitting in that EOTC when this whole 2, 3rd, 1, 3rd. John, I don't remember if you were there too. And I don't think all of us supported it. At the end of the day, I think we did all support it. Yeah, well, I wonder if we ought to revisit that because I'm really getting up concerned about this. Well, Mark, I think that was part of the discussion that we did have the last meeting was that we we hear the next few months need to move forward with that subcommittee moving on having some discussion about it. But at this point with this, tonight's not the right time. Russ? We would recommend you approve this budget to move forward at your next meeting, your first meeting in January. You're going to get to kick the year off with Mr. Peckler in a couple of ways. One. I'll bring my ski boots. A nice promo. Anyway, we do think it's important first to get re-grounded in the history. And so David's working on a couple things right now over the holidays. Hopefully I'll get to enjoy his Christmas a little bit too. Got some historical documents that have been prepared that Dave's going through and I think that's extremely important. And just kind of go through what was the purpose behind the various funding mechanisms or some of the discussions. So getting re-grounded in that will be important. There is a little bit of history. Michael Manchester was discussed several times in the EOTC meeting, and we're trying to figure out how he can convey. And I've chatted with him how we can convey kind of what discussions were occurring at that time when he was mayor. But the other two jurisdictions will reference a specific discussion with him and we need to share that with you along with David's preparing kind of a summary of where expenditures have gone historically with EOTC geographically. In other words, we'll have a little bit of debate with our colleagues, I'm sure, from Pick and County, NASPEN. But it's our view of kind of where the dollars have gone and where have they been generated from the three jurisdictions. I'm looking forward to the summary. So, we're off. Our intent is kind of prepare the entire council. And whoever, again, you've appointed, appointed I think Marky we've heard your name and John I know I think you've raised your hand but you need to kind of formally acknowledge who you want to be on that subcommittee but we'd like to get the whole council grounded in the history and the dollars. Right. Okay I'm fine with moving forward the budget I forgot that that was coming. Yeah. David enjoy your holiday season. Well yes, Mark, you did. Don't kick me too hard when I come back. No, but it is something that, you know, I talked with George Newman in the county and he was saying, wouldn't be going to try to get this together to have these, this little subcommittee discussion. I said, well, we're going to be working on that and hopefully here before March, you know, the next EOTC meeting will have a Get together with that subcommittee. We need to be real clear as to what we anticipate as to the outcomes of that subcommittee and we have this meeting January. We expected outcome of the subcommittee is to develop a recommendation on the free bus service, but I think what you're going gonna really be talking about at the end of the day is a philosophical discussion of should discretionary dollars go to capital or is there a better use with operations? Yep. Thank you. Mark, I appreciate your concern and nervousness about what this implies going forward. If you look at the plan here, 2013, the budget for the no fair service drops from 553,000 to 275,000. Because that's when the free fair service is expected to be completed at the end of the season in 2013. What I've spoken to the council in Aspen and the county commissioners, I said there's no way that we're going to go back to a fair service. We've got to figure out how to do it. And they look to snowmast village, well, you guys are going to pay for it because it's benefit to snowmast village. We have to put that away. It's a benefit for our communities. It's not an aspect. It's not snowmassing. It is for our communities. And I'm happy to serve on the committee as being on the raft aboard as well. I'm very familiar with budgets and operations of how the fair service works and how the free fair service works. So we need to get on this. It's something that we all need to share. It's a benefit that we're, it's not going to go away. It's just there's going to be some rough water between now and then. Anyone else? between now and then. Anyone else? Call the question then on the resolution 36. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Those opposed? Thank you. Thank you, Dancer. Thank you, David. There was more than five minutes. I know. I didn't rate discussion and policy direction and recommendations to staff regarding potential land use code amendments to improve review processes and procedures. Mr. Comrad. Mr. Mayor. One of the things that the Building and Planning Department engaged in is around July. Prepared a four question brief survey. We put on our website to give anyone who wanted the opportunity to provide meaningful, some were meaningful, some were not. But some comments concerning the Building and planning department as it related to. principally the well land use processes as well as building processes. That what we're here for this evening, concerns the an item that was on the pending items within the town managers report. That called to review input from customers on the development review process and make recommendations on approving the process. At the bottom of page 30, I summarized from the responses we received. I listed five comments that were made and we'll go into those individually. I think the point that the survey indicated on page 36, attachment to in the packet was that with regards to the processing wait time and service efficiency, that it's evident that those are the two areas that we could focus on. Staff courtesy and staff knowledge, knowledge ranked fairly well from the 21 respondents, but those are two areas where there could be an improvement. So then we went to the comments and then I broke out the five that I've listed. On page 31, we'll go through each of those discussion items and so you have an opportunity and I can obtain comments and feedback from you giving me some direction as to how you would like we to proceed or any comments that you would like to provide. One of the things that they spoke about was that desire to expedite processes for small matters. And that concerned not only small building permit applications but also building permit applications that may be small that had issues that required variances. And so I listed the small matters may include flora area, crawl spate, height or setback issues, discovered during the construction phase that are not currently able to be administratively authorized within a reasonably short period of time. These matters often happen when the planning department is called for a final inspection prior to a certificate of occupancy. We'll find things like a crawl space area that was supposed to have been filled to less than five foot six inch ceiling high clearance that it was not filled and is actually full height and may very well have been converted into something. foot six inch ceiling high clearance that it was not filled and is actually full height and may very well have been converted into something. As we proceed to deal with that, that's a more of a willful type of situation that doesn't really fall into engineering. When you get one of those, you say, you got a 50 day penalty now when you find those kinds of things, but no, you can't do that. Well, one of the things that becomes a problem is the fact that the excise tax is an avenue that can be applied for those area where the owner needs to make a value judgment, whether they want to buy that converted space or area that exceeds the five foot six and utilize it or they wish to fill it. And the Xi-Sax is fairly expensive. So that will lead into another one further down here that we'll discuss. But let's say that there is a flurry of glitch of some kind where an area that was going to be was not calculable becomes calculable or that there is a setback the house they slipped when they when they initially set the foundation and roof over hanger whatever is 3 4 5 feet outside of the envelope. I only have administrative authority to grant a flurry of variance of 50 square feet or a setback variance of a foot or a height variance of a foot. And so these are fairly they don't really help in a lot of situations. That I would say that there used to be prior to 1998 that the flora it was allowed to be 3% of the flora limit that was on a lot. If it were a 4,500 square foot flora limit on the, that would give me administrative authority up to 135 square feet. In 1998, it went to 2% or 50 square feet, whichever is less. And so that would be about 90 square feet, or 50. It's the 50 square feet. Now today it's 50 square feet. That I can say that quite often when there was the 3%, I found a propensity of architects that just had this tendency to just miss a few things and they came in about a, you know, 2.9% over and they were, it was like fact when we got into the realm of the real estate. I mean the flora excise tax where it's the circumstances by which I would be willing to grant 50 square feet when there's the opportunity for them to to purchase that flora area. I don't grant that many fl floor area administrative modifications these days. Those are generally when there's something that an architect may be from out of town or hasn't worked here before and we disagree on an interpretation and he didn't count something that should have encountered. I can keep the plans going and deal with the 50s for a feat we move on. So I guess the thing is that to expedite processes for small matters, really, they don't think that the administrator mechanism we have is sufficient or is satisfactory. And I think the fundamental question I'm asking you because as we go further along through here, you'll find that the problem is we're in the regulatory business. And I have a land use code that tells me and tells everyone what we've set as far as development parameters. Presently, let's deal with single family residential for discussion tonight. That's saying, this is the maximum allowed for it. This is the envelope where the house is supposed to be within. This is the height and this is house calculated. And a lot of the people who are most disturbed by us calling for the necessity of an administrative or planning commission variance process, are the people who had a condition that we discovered when we were out into the field or in the course of reviewing the building permit plans. Sometimes it's unintentional and sometimes it's not so but regardless we have to deal with them that delays their ability to get a building permit. In the case of someone who's expecting a certificate of occupancy, there could be something that has to go to the Planning Commission and there's a 30 day notice period. That is a big issue. We have dealt with granting a temporary certificate of occupancy for the period of that variance with the provision that if the variance is not granted they will have to To remove it or do whatever But the fundamental thing that has to be understood as far as being in the zoning regulation business is it's awfully hard to Give someone a variance when The special circumstances that caused the this issue are something that the applicant created. Then they created their own hardship. It's very difficult. I often, I sometimes have, I'm confronted with asking the contractor or the owner or the architect, G, when you first thought you were going to convert this to something different that was on the plans, did you think that maybe you might want to come in and talk to me? No, it's three months later when they're trying to move in for Thanksgiving that it comes in issues. So, you know. Well, Chris, I guess, you know, when I read this, it was thinking about, you know, the question of, do I ask for forgiveness after I've done it or do I ask permission to do something up front? If I get caught doing something that, you know, the plan show, it's a five foot ceiling, like you come in and check and it's a six foot ceiling, gosh, you know, something's just not quite right. And I would personally hope that, you know, you would say say you got a problem here and the next step is going to take a bit of time unfortunately yeah I guess a temporary certificate of occupancy if they're trying to get in but I've seen a few people who've had that discussion with you and they've had to come back in and fill in a voided area but then you, I've also seen the houses that they filled that in and five years later, they've sold it. Someone does a check and all of a sudden, gosh, that space is now six foot ceiling. And they have a reverse vacuum cleaner. Well, you know, as planning director, I have reviewed a lot of plans and I've dealt with a lot of contractors and a lot of architects. And I think what's really important for me is that I've maintained a level playing field. There really doesn't matter who it is or what the situation is. But there have been situations where an administrative authorization, as allowed by code, has been approved where there are other circumstances where I'm not willing to administratively support that. I have had situations where I have provided relief for someone in a circumstance that really you could have maybe been a little tougher on and it seems as though that then becomes the norm. I will see that condition happen. So the one thing that I try to maintain and I have over the years is that is the level playing field concept. The question for you tonight based upon the responses from the survey is if I were to return with some code options, not necessarily detailed code language, but a mechanism to deal with some of these five issues, then do we want flexibility where if it's six foot, when it's supposed to be no more than five-six, this close count or this close-not count, you know, 10%. You know, you go in communities where the speed limit is 35, but the community knows that 38's probably okay. And that's okay. But if there's to be an absolute and regulatory enforcement, then that's another thing. And it deals in the realm of administrative authority. I can send things to the Planning Commission and they can make their own decisions. Council, what do you think about number one and staff recommendation? Expand the authority the Planning Director to interpret the municipal code number two above and or I'm in the administrative modification process and the rate to expedite the time frame within which a small matter could be resolved. Well, I always like to think that our planning director has a very good brain on him. And I've always found when I chaired the Planning Commission that he was very, very conscientious as to when and how to use discretion. I'm fine with number one. I'll span the authority of the planning director. Fred? Yeah, I am too, because I've known Chris a long time and I do think he has a good head in his shoulder. I think he's fair. And I think the key to seem to me seems to be the ability to distinguish an act of omission from an an active co-mission. That is, if somebody accidentally has six inches more than they're supposed to, your ability to say, yeah, but you knew better than that. You shouldn't have that six inches. Or, yeah, that was a mistake. It was an accident, you know, your ability to distinguish between, you know, an affirmative act to go beyond what is permitted and an absolutely accidental act that nobody intended to have happened seems to me as crucial. And, but that's, you know, that's your experience, that's your discretion. And I think it ought to be in your discretion. There's a big difference between conforming to our code And, but that's, you know, that's your experience, that's your discretion, and I think it ought to be in your discretion. It's a welcome. There was a big difference between conforming to our code and gaming the code. That's what I want to avoid. I'm sorry. The difference between conforming to our code and gaming our code. And that's what I know you are aware of all these things going on, but someday you will not be here doing this. Do we want to relinquish enough of the checks and balances in our code to prevent somebody in the future saying, okay, that's it. You can start doing it this way because we haven't enforced it in the past. And I know of homes that were built with the five and a half foot ceiling in the crawl space that was graveled. And the second they got to see all the gravel, Marky said had a reverse vacuum cleaner on it. And those are the kind of circumstances that okay if we're going to make a change in the code let's do it. But this not put our homeowners in our residences into a position of having to game the system to get there. Okay, letting open a bit but I want to have a good check and balance on what we are talking about as far as giving you more discretionary power. I would say that, you know, I left for about two years and when I came back, I was actually retained as a consultant to help the planning director at the time, to reach up on some of the administrative approvals they granted. And some of them I've really had some issues with as to how they justified those approvals that granted and some of them I really had some issues with as to how they justified those approvals but yet they were they were done. I mean everybody loves when everything something's approved nobody really makes a big issue about it and you don't get bad reviews in the survey or letters to the editor. It's when you regulate somebody that they get terribly irate. So I'm just trying to be fair because I should not exceed my authority or abuse my discretion. So if I'm given discretion, there's an expectation that I use it wisely. And if not, well then I should hear about it. The other thing that can happen is that I think that you have to create a mosaic where you decisions are all consistent with what you've approved in the past. And I think you can do that by, that would pass on to even after I'm gone, could be some policy administrative policies that speak to some of the day-to-day issues we deal with and how we've applied the code interpretation to that particular issue. Jason? I've worked with Chris for several years, I guess, as well, and agree that he possesses the qualities you guys talked about. But at the same time, I don't necessarily think it's good practice to set policy around an individual in that position. I think it makes a lot more sense to just draw the line and create a culture where people expect and are expected to just fill that line. So I've heard criticism and I guess commentary about our development process here, which is, you know, you go through this hellish bureaucratic process and you're dealing with all these jumping these hoops and I think there's a and at the same time then I for people say, oh it's snowmast, you can build anything there just go ahead and do it and ask for forgiveness later. And so I think people have found avenues, you know, if they don't hear from Chris what they want to hear, then they know they can go somewhere else. And they take that opportunity liberally, I guess. And I think it makes a lot more sense for us to just be a little more firm with our code. And that's the approach I'm inclined towards. Working. I want to go back on this. We're talking about Chris using some discretion, but the major item number one is expedite processes for small matters. Well, there's multiplicity of small matters. What I've heard complaints about is the timeline it takes from going from square a to square B to square C to square D. My thinking would be going, jumping all the way down to your last recommendation of getting a group together and you had construction people I think. Yeah, absolutely. And really a surveys one thing, sitting around the table and getting more input as to what do people really mean because the question was kind of an open-ended type of question. And then coming back with recommendations might help us out a little bit because I see that expedite processes like this and now we're dealing with this cross-space issue as the major example. So I would prefer to see a group of people coming together form a little task force. I see Mike Tandy sitting right there and you know you get some of those guys and gals around the table and hash out what might be the best way to expedite processes and or some of these other issues then coming back to us with recommendations and or through the planning commission and then back to us. Yes. I didn't get an impression that you wanted us to go ahead and let them start building paperwork to follow. I know. But there are some glitches. And first of all, I can say that I've been working with John Dresser and Russ and we've been talking about both the administrative modification procedure, but also some of the provisions in our PUD processes. And that it's a perfect time this winter to try and take a good look at our processes, planning processes, and improve them. I was very clear in my staff communicate that I'm going to work with the building official to improve the building permit administration processes. One of the things has to do with you have a set of plans, an individual should kind of know whether they need a variance or they're pushing the envelope somewhere. And before they submit the plans, the people who are most indignant are the ones that have submitted plans and then after they're being checked for zoning, it's determined that they need to then go through a planning process, administrative modification or a variance or whatever. That is in the timeline of the building permit review. And so yes, of course, they're upset by the time that it took. But really, that was not part of the building permit process. That should be isolated from the building permit. It's the planning process that was necessary for the proposal that they made. Or they're welcome to modify their plans to avoid that process. Presumably. Or they could modify their plans to avoid that process presumably or they could modify their plans to avoid that process Well, I think you need to look perhaps consider looking at the entire process from the point that we have a little brain Mm-hmm. I call them brain parts, but we want to do something to Somebody's house when do you had that first meeting with Chris. Now, let's walk all the way through the process. Yep, and then have the construction people sit down and say, this is an area where it could be approved. I didn't sit through this process. Other people have lived the process, and I'd rather get recommendations back from them. And what I'm speaking to Russ about has to do with the fact that the building permit process is the chief building officials. And the manner of means by which he wishes to get through the process, the zoning, the planning people, we are the people who actually, to the extent that we're asked, we will look at the plans and we then advise him regarding consistency with zoning. And so, so expediting the process is really going to be a tandem effort with Mark Kiddell and I as to how much involvement does he want. And I think we'd be able to make some strides in that area. But that's something that for the most part is an administrative process that you may get as a report item once we get a few things worked out that may we'd want to report to you about. Right. You mentioned reviewing the PUD process and as we all know, we're going to probably have some significant PUD issues coming up here and sometime within the next two or three years with base village so maybe maybe absolutely right but you know I want to be coming I would like to think we would yeah yeah but I think it's but I do think it's important that when base village comes before us, we have as good a PUD process as we can have. Because like all developers, they're going to want to build, like all councils, we're going to want to be sure that whatever they build is appropriate and right. But to allow unneeded bureaucracy to interfere with that process, I think would be a mistake. And I think it would hurt the town. I agree. I mean, I amended the PUD section last October. And it did clean up a few things. But it also then added some things like adequate public facilities and that things that really may make it a little bit more complicated than it had been previously but not much but clarified a lot of things. And a lot of one of the things that can help the process is the is council's expectation on how they'd like to have applications process before them. And how many meetings it takes and what information should be provided at a staff level, what do you need to get engaged in involved in, or what do you wish to just let staff handle and report to you that it's been handled. So that's another one of those trust issues that I think we've gone very far from where there have been previous councils that they wanted to hear everything down to the doorknob. And I think this council is a little different and I think hopefully future ones are also to where we depend on you staff to be taking care of the code, understanding the code, and doing with it and bringing the variances to us. And, you know, to be a little clear about what Chris is speaking about, particularly in the PUD process, you know, the code calls for an administrative process. There was some prior counsel that basically wanted to see any and every little thing. Our intent is to actually follow the code and where staff has discretion to utilize that discretion. So that wouldn't mean we would do an FYI to council where that the code doesn't require it or as appropriate to refer to the planning commission. So that's how we plan to proceed, which is, again, in that category of applications, you know, there is some administrative discretion or there's some discretion to refer to the planning commission, and that would be our intent. The other kind of area in the PUD that kind of Chris talks about that has been a topic of discussion is where there's particularly design-related changes within a PUD and it pins on the PUD. Sometimes it's very, very specific that a color change needs to come to council. Is that the most appropriate form to deal with a design change or not? A lot of other communities will deal with it again at a staff level or at a planning commission level. So again, you know, that's an area, particularly within our PUD process, that needs a little bit of attention and some thought in terms of what's the best process. A lot of the residential items that Chris referenced in his memo, kind of relates to flurry ratio. And I, after dealing with FAR for probably 15 years, that consistently creates conflict with customers, with even between staff, between building and planning staffs, because sometimes you get into life safety issues and you begin to debate, you know, what's the significance of FAR when you're dealing with adequate head height for an HVAC system. But both are laws and both require staff to implement. So again, that's something that Chris kind of talks about in his memo and it's in snow mass intertwined with our excise tax. And again, there is a specific idea of potentially looking at excise tax a little bit different, which might actually require a vote of the people to modify that. Do we apply it or not apply it in crawl spaces or other areas that are not habitable? So, I mean, just that area of FAR, my experience in chatting with Chris creates a tremendous amount of, can create tremendous amount of frustration and a lot of time regulating it. Not to say that it's not important though. That was a good segue. I'll be brief with regards to the excise tax because I do not, we only administrative in the planning department to the extent that we calculate the amount and the square footage involved in the amount that to the extent that we calculate the amount and the square footage involved in the amount that they need to pay and then we collect it for a building permit. But when you look at the essence of the code itself, the question would be whether sometime here in the next year we wish to have discussions that does not be initiated by me but regarding the excI tax program and the language. There have been issues that have come up at a staff level that we've discussed, and they really, we cannot, you can't amend some items without going back to the voters. And that's not a problem, but it's just something that, a step that would need to occur that you should possibly be aware of. In my case, I have two areas that are problematic for me. One is item number three there on page 32 that they're making reference to why should I have to play the flurry excise tax, which is 70% of the improvement value for this junkie little space. It's not living area. It's not living area. It's not good area. It's not the same as kitchen space or a media room or the like. I shouldn't have to pay that amount, which can be hundreds of dollars per square foot. And so legitimate for them to be concerned about that. The only thing short of an ultimate amendment, amendment of the excise tax provisions would be that there could be, I mean 50% of it of a space like that would be excise tax and 50% would be something administratively that I'd have to allow. And I have to give that a lot of thought and I'd have to certainly be coming back to you. I don't have a good answer. The second biggest problem that I have are the cases where the owner just can't have a house that's big enough. So the plans come in and they have maximized the 5,500 square feet allowed for the house, plus they bought the 550 square feet, and then they start building the house, and then it gets nearly complete, and there is a space that's calculable, flora-ery. Well, there's no quick remedy to deal with that, because I have no, they cannot buy more than 10% or 550 square feet, and there is a is a flurry limit without sending it to the planning commission or something of that nature. So we have to decide maybe whether we want to do something that deals with subgrade space and excise tack being applied in some manner and how to address things where the house exceeds the maximum allowed by not something that they've created themselves. It was inadvertent or whatever it may be. I mean, you can make up whatever the regulations are going to be, but to deal with those kinds of problems. Well, here's a question for you. Go ahead, Mugging. I'm looking at the survey, and now we're talking about the floor area tax. I don't see that on the survey. So is this something that you've had to deal with? Is it your concern or did it come up in the survey? It was referenced in a comment that someone had one or two had said Do number three. I took it's a straight quote out of somebody's comments do not assess flora excise tax for non-living space See we don't have the comments on here, so no I Think it's also his experience. Yeah, it's a legitimate issue for you. Well you had I'm just all over the map on this because I think we're all over the map. You have a you have a survey and then the action items I thought were going to come from the survey. Now we're talking about the floor area tax. I see that as a whole other issue for us to really put our arms around at a council level. So I mean the number one deals with flexibility in the process or expedite, then make codes more flexible. The two items that they did, that the planning and building departments did not score well in or as well in, were processing wait time and service efficiency. Processing wait time could be a factor of- The cost. Working on the administrative process is following, or delays as a result of, say, planning actions that were required before they could get their permit issued. The service and efficiency again is that something was uncovered and they really kind of expected you to not make a big deal about it, but you did make a big deal about it. And it delayed being the completing of the project or required some kind of additional action on their part that they felt was not necessary. Yeah, you know, unfortunately, this area is a very difficult area because Chris has dealt with a lot of these things. I think a number of times he'd like to say, you know, your contractor knew better. And therefore, you know, we're making him persona non-grata from this point on, anything they built, they can't build with some S village anymore. You know, you could take it that far to say, you know, this isn't right and you knew better. Do you take it that far to say, you know, this isn't right? And you knew better? And so that's going to be a long process because now we've got to check everything. Now we've got to sit back and say, you know where else do they try to jump the curb? My history, in my experience, it's been where I've really, not ever really held, formed an personal opinion regarding an architect or a contractor. I have heard the situation that the owner has approached the architect and says, I need to have this and he goes, well, I don't think you can really do that. And he goes, well, if you can't design it, I'll find someone who can or the same thing with the contractor. So, you know, there, but there's always the stories and they're fun to hear, you know, and let her say, but I've got regulations to deal with. So as far as, you know, our discussion tonight, John Fred, actually Fred. Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong. But if an architect and a builder comply with the code, the process would not be drawn out or extended, and it would be fairly expeditious. If the plans came in, in accordance with the code, and the building was built in accordance with the plans, it would be a fairly expeditious process. Would it not? Absolutely. Plain of us. Absolutely. Yeah, that's. I don't know if that's true or not. If it's a complete application and if it's consistent with the regulations, even during, yeah, they could be through rather rapidly. You have to understand some people submit substandard plans to get on the board. And sometimes then that's not quite right. And there needs to be an administrative remedy for us to deal with that, how the people who are in the board are going sometimes then that's not quite right. And there needs to be an administrative remedy for us to deal with that. How the people who have submitted clean plans are able to get through much simpler. The people who submit small projects can get through very quickly. And but again, these are not things that I would be working on that would be working with Mark to help him to get his permits out. So how long does that usually take? I mean there's no time frame there's no reference to that. There's not a lot on the board right now things will fly right through in a week but in the other side of the question is in our economy we have downsides that you know department and those people because we used to have a few more bodies up there doing this stuff so I mean this would be a tipping point to where the community says you know we've got to hire more people or no. Well I'm just I'm really trying to get a point of reference here I'm really struggling with the points of reference Fred asked the question about how simple it is well simple is that done in 15 days or 30 days or 45 days or 90 days? Well, my zoning goal on a single family residence when it's available to the planning department is two weeks. Okay. That's what it's in for building permit. Yeah, but then it has a building. building process as well. But see, zoning is an issue because it's very complicated. Whereas the building department, when they review a set of plans and if you've seen them, they've got red ink all over them. They merely cite the sections that something needs to be in compliance with. They do check the engineering and all of this, but I'm saying the zoning guys, and unless we change our policies, which we may well do by the next spring, that rather than just putting a note, which we do have them show the correction. In the case of crawl spaces, which are the biggest problem, and I appreciate Russ's sympathetic ear on this, we put a stamp right on every crawl space and says it needs to be filled. And so it just seems that some people just quit reading the permit plans. They just go to building. And so at the end of the line, we end up with a problem. And so Chris, back number one, you're, I guess we're not going to possible to censor, we're not going to get a sound decision on how we do this without, as Mark and maybe said, and two people said, let's put together a little more of a discussion. Well, yeah, I needed to report to this because it was on the work schedule to get it to you to December and I was quite willing and pleased to do that. I've already mentioned to you, and we fully intend to seriously work on the administrative modification section of the land use code. And that would include, and we would bring back to you the possibility of increasing those limits like setback being a foot to something a little more, assuming that you believe that we can handle it at an administrative level. Although I'm still hearing a little bit of a philosophical debate on that. Yeah, there is. Generally, I like the last recommendation of putting together this to talk about absolutely all these issues and come back with some commentary and recommendations. I think we just don't want to be planning Billy Boyz. We want to be applying the types of limits and thresholds for zoning that are the community standards that are acceptable. What we desire to apply to them. I've spoken to other previous councils about the intention of flurry limitations is to control mass and forget it's a horizontal plane thing. You want to go volume. Do you want to say we don't even count basements. There's lots of things that you could look at if you wanted to. But I'm working on focusing on these five today. One concern just in terms of this recommendation around getting representatives from the construction industry around the table. If you limit that representation to that side of the counter, then the recommendations are obviously going to be very one-sided. Who is the protector, if you will, on the other side of that argument, to get balanced input and have that debate about? Well, I've seen a lot of things come and a lot of things go as far as what's been been submitted with plans and what's been approved and what hasn't. And I think that what we do need to listen to with regards to architects, contractors are where perhaps they agree with what the intent of that regulation is, but it's just a clarification of the language or just a little bit of flexibility could make a lot of difference to them. I mean, even on the way we calculate height, it drives to what the architects, the designs that you're seeing in this community and a few minor changes to that would help them design better looking for the residents. I guess maybe this no mess homeowners association. Yeah, I would think some people that have been through the process as homeowners. That goes with the homeowners association. Well also in the formal process to answer your question Jason. I think if these are land use changes, you probably want to solicit the input of your planning commission. Right. Definitely serves that role. You know, the homeowners association would be another group, since they have a designer in the community. It's Markatex. It's Markatex. Yeah. I mean, I'm not so, I mean, I hear we're hearing a lot of concern from people that are going through the process. They're hassled by the bureaucracy and the time. I'm more concerned with the people that are concerned with impact on neighborhoods and impact on, you know, neighbors and things like that, making sure they're part of that conversation. Well, you know, one foot in the pines cannot make all big difference, but one foot in Fairway states country code states. I don't know what a sure fairway drive Exactly. We can make unbelievable difference, right? Right. If you're trying to come up with a definitive standard I'll tell you a lot of stuff. Yeah, that's why we have a planning commission, right? They have the ability you don't have the ability to create Variations boards the appeals and adjustments we have they still yeah, but they don't You don't have the ability to create variations. Board details and adjustments we have. Are they still? Yeah, but they don't. That's a different process. It's hard for people to understand that one foot up here can make a difference, particularly if you're dealing with a viewpoint. Yeah. And the million dollar views we've had planning commission variances where there was one on down in country club on fairway drive where the lady actually invited it. We had them build a little mock up of where it would be out of foot and up a foot and the neighbor had us all come into her kitchen and we showed that it wiped out an important view of the ski hill and a significant thing she liked to look at in the morning, one of the lifts and everything. So, you know, one foot can make a difference. And it's really tough if you're gonna do it administratively because there's sometimes not quite, you're not absolutely certain you've got all the comments from everybody around, you haven't been able to do a notice that drew a lot of people to provide comments to you before you make your decision. Well, I think you guys do a really good job. And I think it might be helpful for talking about populating the group construction people. I would look to staff to come up with some recommendations about who that, who needs to be included. I don't think council should, I mean. You need to appreciate, I don't intend to exceed my authority or abuse my discretion. But if you give me authority, then I'll use it wisely and I'm responsible for the decisions that I make. So I do intend to come back with some ways to improve the system in land use code. I intend to work with the chief building official to improve the processes for his building permits, so that things go better when things pick up. And that will make a big difference just in the manner of the way that's done. And people could then have a clear understanding of the processes. Jason? Just a question on the excise tax discussion here. You said some change may require voter approval. What's the most cheaper, what are you thinking of when you say that specifically? If we go to the... I'm referred to John, but pretty much there isn't a whole lot of flexibility as to what can be done for us to just bring an ordinance to amend that section because it was a ballot question. Yep, great. Cross that. No. Of course that. No. Well, there's actually a strategic discussion too with that that's broader than land use in building code, which is this is a diminishing fund. And I don't know if we want to further extend it, but do we want to do anything to stimulate some additional activity with this? Those could be interior conversions, say, with existing buildings. That might also be helpful at the end of the day with some of the things that Chris is discussing. But just to kind of wrap this up, is there an interest to kind of spend some additional time, again, with both individuals that work in design and construction, also hearing you loud and clear inviting some individuals that may represent homeowners associations. Well, you mean additional time before council? No, stay with Chris. Yeah, investment of time of staff. Yeah, I think it'd probably be a good thing, good time. And I do want to make sure, as we said earlier, that staff knows the code works the code and You know doesn't we don't I personally don't believe that the council wants to have all these people coming to us Say I need a various because the damn Building and planning wouldn't give us what we wanted Guys you got a code, you know, you knew exactly what you're getting into. So I think that you guys have to do your job, and we have to back you up when you do the right job. And you know, I think it's important that a community is able to work as efficiently as possible. And I think you guys, you know, in your departments, you know, one of those critical locations that there shouldn't be very many gray areas. You know, the bad guys, that's this one. Yeah, that is part of Chris's channel. Yeah, Arlene, you code, that I'm, that's why I hope you know it. But you can find a lot of gray in it. And I think that's what, you know, we've been talking about for years, you need to make some enhancements to our code so that it doesn't have the gray area. You have to be careful too, because one of the things that leads to such value in the homes here is the reliance on the house across the street, down the street, in your view plane, is a plan under the same rules. Right. So you have to look for consistency in a long term way too and not be reactionary to the market demands and I can tell you that in just in my experience, the problems arise when the owner, the architect, the contractor, aren't forthright. And it's discovered later. And then you have to go to the planning commission and try for a variance. Well, let's tear it out. We don't do tear outs very often do it. We are usually able to work with them, but no, we do covenants. We put deed restrictions on places and and we go back and we find them that those don't work as well. Right. Right. But you can't go willing, I don't want to say willing, but you have to think in the long-term consistency of your code. Because not only is it for the benefit of that person that's constructing, it's for the benefit of the person, the other people in the community as well. And that's why we have limits, upper limits on square footage, because we know that there's, there are the resources here to build, big, big, big, Fred Witch. John, I couldn't agree with you more. And as Chris will remember, when I bought my house before I bought it, there was a vacant lot across the street for me, and I took a look at the, at the platt, I took a look at the footprint. The house was set down the hill, and his view plane was out over the golf course. When the gentleman bought the lot, he bought the lot, he came to me and he said, he wanted a variance, and basically what he wanted to do is bring the house out of the footprint up to the road So the view was up towards Ferdinand And Chris and I had a little discussion and Chris said you're not happy with that. I said absolutely not He said like me a letter and I did and problem solved so you're so so right I would say you get this is what I'm thinking. Keep get that group together to deal with some of these issues. And then the floor area excise tax. I think that needs to be. I have a broader discussion here. Yeah, as I was saying, I don't administer the floor excise tax, but I definitely can bring some points for consideration the fact that could improve that program. John Wilkinson. Yeah, but we need voter approval. Yeah, I support you going forward looking at some of the stuff, Chris, but I'm very concerned that you open up the door one side, it closes down something somewhere else. I need firm definitions of what's going to be covered under FAR exemptions. If we're going to do that, I mean overhangs, balconies, I mean, there's all host of things that are non-living areas. What are we opening ourselves up to? What could go wrong if we make these changes? Because you know, people look at changes opportunity. You know, we've crafted our code. I could just say I came to you tonight to know whether I'm supposed to be losing up the regulations. I have no problem clarifying the arguments. We'll be tweaking them. But it could just as easily been, you know, I think the time is for us to rethink about, you know, just letting some of this happen. And I don't I can't do that because No, I don't think that's the message I would If that's what you see the direction that you'd like for me to to investigate John was so right on with this I understand in that continuum that I'm talking about Fred There's already been this radical radical change that Anybody can add 10% of their house. It happened in 1999. If you're a single family home, all you have to do is pay this voluntary elective flora excise tax and you've in essence paid for the ability to increase and put additional, I don't want to say demands, but I mean, you're allowed to add a room that could block somebody's view, could create a setback. You know what I'm saying? So that radical change happened just over 10 years ago. And if you're going to go with what I'm Chris is wondering about, are we going to loosen it more? That's going to be a pretty drastic change too, which is going to affect that long-term continuum of protection of values. Russ? Well, again, what you're talking about is the basic purpose of a Lane Use Code, which fundamentally defines the character of your community. I think there's kind of one element of what Chris discussed, which talks about efficiency. He gets you to do the same point, but more efficiently. And the other element is a regulatory. And I think what I'm hearing is a, go ahead within staff's discretion as the current land use code allows, follow that process and certainly we have your support in doing that too. Is there interest in terms of spending additional staff time to work with contractors and other parties to look at, again, as I characterize how to find efficiencies in the existing code? I guess there is. I guess I am a little bit more concerned than Marquie though that when you bring the Fox into the hen house, they try to figure out how to, you know, gain the system. So, you know, I think that we do need to look at these efficiencies and look at some of this from time to time and this may not be a bad time to look at that before we have a new upsurge. So you're saying though that the sources would be at my discretion for the purpose that I wish to utilize the committee or the group to benefit any potential code changes. It's not mandatory that I get 30 of the- No. So and so on. That's a bit special. Unless free lunches involve, then I'm glad to get a meeting. Okay. But specifically, is there anything else that we need to deal with you tonight on on this stuff? I don't think so. Unless I have a policy direction that I need specific to something that I'd develop in the course of this, I would then work with Russ with Mark Kittl, with John Dresser, and we've perceived the Planning Commission. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Next item we have is item number nine. Follow up on next steps for CIP planning. Actually, you want to take a break? Yes. Okay, we'll take a break and then I might just actually change the order here a second and do item 10 first. you The agenda from item 9, item 10, that's okay. This is the second reading, ordinance number six, series of 2011 marking groups sales and special events board. In ordnance, mending chapter two, article 14 of the Tennis Months Village, Missile Code, advising the provisions for the composition, powers, and duties in providing an additional advisory committee for the marketing group sales and special events board of the Tonsumus Village. Is there a motion? So moved. Test Mr. Cooker. Second. Second by, the welcome sir. Okay, Mr. Dresser, did you get any one here? Thank you Mr. Mayor. This is second reading of the ordinance that was considered last Monday at your special meeting at first reading. You made a couple of minor tweaks to the language before you moved and seconded that and those are included here. Another than that, I think it complies with where you wanted to go. I was not able to be here for last week's meeting and I have a few questions. On page 41 of the packet under composition, I was thinking about, I think it was Jason who asked this when we had the meeting with the, that Wednesday retreat. We have three nominees from the village lodging industry. And then it's basically one from all the other industries. I've been thinking about that. Is that too weighted versus just having one? I have similar concerns about that. I'd be open to talking about amendments and composition and we have marketing board members here. So we could have some discussion about that possibly. It's just a question of looking at fairness for each segment of the industry, either to each or three each or one each or I think they may be pointing to the lodging guy in the group. Well, I mean, just, you know, I guess what the history has been is that we've had three members of lodging on the past boards, correct? Well, my understanding though, with back when this was put together on the town ordinance, that way or the resolution that we all voted on, it was kind of a compromise deal. It might have worked, it might not have worked, but I'm a believer is equal representation by each segment of the industries that really drive this town. So I'd be helped to know why three. I did think about what you said. Yeah. So I'd like to really know a little bit more as to how we landed here. I guess I could address that. Originally, there were seven members on this board, with one, actually the exhibition was added later, but they had specific nominees from different segments of the lodging industry within the village. And so there were always three lodging representatives on the board. And one was a nominee of the Snowmass Village lodging industry, nominated from the lodging businesses that were members of the Snowmass Village Resort Association by virtue of a covenant or other restriction on the real property palm, which the business was operating. So that was your first lodging representative. Your second lodging representative was one nominee of the Snowmass Village lodging industry nominated from the lodging businesses in Snowmass Village. So that's almost your at-large lodging. And then the other one was one nominee of the lodging industry nominated from the lodging businesses in base village. So it's really not an increase in number. It's just that we've taken away the categories and allowed the lodging industry to nominate three nominees. So it wasn't an increase in the number with this proposal to increase the size of the board. It was actually a broadening of the nominate, an elimination of the restrictions to how they could be nominated and who they had to represent. So why it's that way is historic from my perspective? If it's correct, I don't know. I know that it was the Board's recommendation after a Wednesday meeting that this composition continue. And while we didn't specifically speak to the deed restriction of the SRA, I actually spoke to John and Bob and they said they didn't see any reason to further that, those distinctions, those segments within the lodging industry for nominations. I guess, I don't know. You can go speak to the table here. Let's prep the other. I don't, the other reason is, is obviously that, I'll feed it. Do you want to sit here? Yes, perfect. Group sales is very much a, it's part of the board versus marketing and special events. So that may be a segment of the operation that's targeted towards lodging. And I think, if I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll let you guys take it from here. But you're in a hurry. I think if Bob were here, or Bob were to speak, or maybe some former members, they would say that one of the ways that they believe the success of the marketing board is measured is by heads on beds because guests in lodging spend money in the other areas and that I hate this metaphor but the rising tide floats all the ships. So I don't know if you'd use that one or not. They're here, so I don't know why you're asking. If I may, John, quickly please. John, quickly, Chair of the Marketing Board, lodging member, the original board, if I'm correct, I believe historically was five members. When group sales was folded in with the additional tax of 2.3%, the group, the lodging portion went to additional seats because of those monies. It was a bit disappointing. Two additional seats, not three. And that was the five floor seats. There was three total, so there was lodging retail and restaurant to it large. And then when group sales was folded in as part of the agreement with SRA, is two more seats would be added. SRA, looking at the composition of the village, it was our thought that with 600 units coming online in base village, that base village should have a specific seat. Second, the second seat would be for, we'll say the SRA footprint and then one at large. And in talking to both lodging members and talking to other board members, the thinking now is that we have three at large seats nominated by the lodging sector. seats nominated by the lodging sector. Okay. Jason? It's interesting. The original board, when you were just dealing with the marketing tax, had balanced representation from those sectors. And when you added the lodging tax, you added two more seats. But in effect, that majority of lodging representation now has sway over the marketing dollars as well. Not just the increased lodging tax revenue, but is that accurate? How the board, what the responsibilities of the board is you go there with the idea, you're correct, representing your individual constituencies, but when it comes time to vote, you vote for what's in the best interest of the overall community. So then you take a step back. So you're not, we are charged with representing the entire village and the board is such that that we're an issue, the other board members which without way the lodging sector would chime in. Does it ever occur, John? Bob's been on the board longer, I would say no. Well, actually I would have answered Jason's questions and say yes just by the numbers. Because we all know that we have a bias based on the industry that we represent. We do challenge each other to do just what John says. And I think we've been relatively successful, but I still think we all wear different color jerseys. I guess I would just share for your consideration, the notion that the original five member board with equal industry representation was put in place because there had been concern that there was unequal waiting to the needs and opinions of certain industry segments. So in the early days of doing this, we said, look, you know, in the name of teen unity, there will be no difference numerically in that issue. There may be different sway, there may be people who speak more eloquent layer, folks who do this or that or the other, but in terms of numbers, there's one each for three industry segments. That's the original thinking. There was a long negotiation, right, John, and where the town was represented by Morkin Arty and were various members of SRA, led by Hiram at the time Chairman still is, negotiated what was to be an eventual dissolution of SRA. And that was a major strategic intent of that discussion. And so I would say out of that negotiation came an agreement, a meeting of the mind in the middle of the road road that there would be these additional lodging seats. And some people as John said represented that as appropriate because they were bringing in additional revenues, not paid for by the lodging folks, but collected by the lodging folks in group sales, but it was part of a rather complex negotiation of give and take. And some of the give was two more lodging seats as the way I recall it. So I think now for this debate, for you folks, on duty today, is, well, what do you think about those various perspectives and how to balance or not, and how to carry on with what was agreed in the 2005 negotiation, or to amend it based on experience in one way or the other. The board at their retreat agreed as a majority that to go ahead and leave the three seats there, move the board population up to nine was okay. There was a minority view there and that minority view thought that the equal number would be a more appropriate distribution of representation. But for one, we got to three lodging people as a result of given take negotiation in 2005, trying to reach a middle ground and move forward and at the retreat here just a month or two ago, the sitting board, I think agreed it was, okay, not to claw back one or two of those lodging members, but they were in place, so we'd leave them in place. The as is was easier to move ahead than to try to make a change. But that's an issue that has been debated, as I say, is recently as the retreat of the board. I guess when we asked the question at our last meeting, and I asked why it went up to nine, and you said you needed to have an odd number. So I've been working with that. But it seems like if you- That's the answer to the question of why not eight. Right. Well, to me- That's the answer to the question of 1 at 8. Right. Yeah. Well, to me- I'm not selling. So going with odd numbers, if we went and stayed with 7, which to me just seems like a more manageable group maybe, if you had two members from the lodging industry and two at large members. That puts lodging on equal footing, if you will, with food beverage and retail, if those two were aligned. And then you have three, you have the two at large members, and you have the skiing company member. And the skiing company presumably has interests towards lodging and towards the other sectors. So it seems like pretty balanced representation with the idea that the at large members would have pretty good sway over how that. I'm going to address from them, Fred. and just to address from the foot. I would, when Bob brought up the 2006 group sales agreement, which was the politically negotiated instrument, I would- You didn't say politically negotiated. Well, negotiated political grounds, whatever, however you can't use your exact. The agreement does provide that on a before January 17, 2006, the town shall approve an ordinance of many of the organizational structure of the marketing special events board, and the key languages the ordinance shall provide for two additional designated lodging industry representatives. Be my advice to you that you follow the letter of that agreement, because even though the agreement provides that SRA would be gone within 12 months, I don't believe they're gone. And I would not advise you to breach that agreement until we could say definitively that this agreement has been fully performed or otherwise legally terminated. Hasn't the agreement been breached on their part? By virtue of the 12 months? I think that the SRA and their dissolution process could probably point to the town and say that the town breached it, and I would think that the town could point at the SRA and say that they breached it. I would prefer, and it's been the direction of previous councils is to continue to fully perform this agreement and eventually arrive at the complete and unquestioned disillusioned of SRA. But if we want to, I mean to alleged breach against the SRA to amend the organizational structure of the board. You could certainly do that. I don't know if that would lead to litigation or if it would lead to a finality of the SRA. Mr. Cooker. Two things. First of all, the addition of the ad large member, I thought number one was excellent because you're broadening the community's participation. And the human cry that I have heard since I started running for offices that the community needs more input. So I think that's a very important seat. Secondly, when I see the board sitting here saying, this works, I don't think we should be in the business of changing it. They're saying it works, they're saying it's fair, they're saying people put their own interests aside when it comes to a final vote, excuse me final vote, and do what's truly best for the community. I don't think it's our job or our position to change that mindset. Fred, I agree with you and I'm wholly supportive of the membership that we have in this language. Mr. Wilkinson? I guess you and Mary are going to go down to the middle. I guess so. Mary want to go to the mayor. I guess so. We can't. You know, so how we move from there on this membership, you have more questions, Mark? Yeah, I did. I want to ask the question. Does the council approve, we have two, two, I wanna go back. We seem to have what's called a business plan in the language, and I heard at that Wednesday, meaning we had a strategic plan, two separate documents. This ordinance, so that ordinance or resolution, ordinance speaks to the business plan and nothing about the approval of strategic plan. It's been my experience that the strategic plan is what contains the goals for a board. The business plan is the tactical plan that is drawn on an annual basis from the strategic plan. I don't see any reference at all to the strategic plan only reference to a business plan. I need to really get that issue sorted out in my little pea brain. Who approves a strategic plan for the marketing and sales? The firm, so the individuals on my right, but there was a marketing strategic plan that was created by the marketing board and is referenced in our comprehensive plan. So that was a high level strategic plan. I don't know if it specifies when it would be reviewed or updated and that does identify high level strategy. I would think that the council should be very interested in an update on a strategic plan every two to four or five years. That's been my experience. You do the strategic plan and then you get your tactical plan. There was also, and I don't know how it was really landed or whether there was a conclusion on this. I did hear some direction around this. John Borthwick, as you might recall at the last meeting, got up. Right. And kind of asked about where was the strategy, and I think Bob reminded him that there was in fact a strategic plan. And there was some discussion of could the two be somewhat merged, or could some of the highlights of that strategic plan be integrated into the business plan so that you had high level strategy, you had the goals and then actions for a particular year. Right? Well, as you said, Markey, a strategic plan is something that is done and then reviewed every two years, every three years. But a business plan is an annual thing. Not necessarily. Well, it should be. I don't think we've said in here we want it to be. And we want it to be an annual thing. And this ordinance says it's an annual plan. It's a tactical plan. It's not a business plan or a tactical plan. But all I'm saying is, I don't see anything wrong with us getting a report at some point with the strategic plan merged into the business plan to show how the business plan is executing the strategic plan. But I think it's the board's obligation, the marketing board's outlook, you're the one who's concerned about micromanaging. And I think if we start getting involved in the marketing board strategic plan, we're micromanaging them. Now, a strategic plan oversees the tactical plan, the business plan, I think the strategic plan is what should come to the council. That should be approved, reviewed, and approved by the council. And then comes your annual tactical plan, which in this essence is your business plan. And you're talking about, we talked about merging the two documents. Well, or- I'm sure you thought of merging them out there, right? We didn't really talk about merging them. What I would suggest was that we excerpt from the strategic plan, a pager to, which is the essence of the strategic plan, and then put it up front of the business plan and say, well, this is the strategic context within which the business plan is informed. So there should be symmetry between the essence of the strategy and the annual execution tactically and programmatically. And what I was thinking to do was be to take a page or two and capture the essence of the strategic plan so that as way to let people know when they read the business plan, there is one. And then as a bibliography, tell them where to go find the whole thing. If somebody would like to read it chapter in verse, but not to, as Billy said, not to actually merge the whole thing. I think in the strategic plan, for instance, you wouldn't include any particular years annual business plan. You might say there is one, and you might say that it is this not in the other. But, you know, I think strategic plan is, I think, marking your right, a higher level plan. And much of that sort of notion was captured in the original days when the budget not only was presented as the finance department would in terms of line items and this and that in the others. But it was really presented in what was called buckets. So it said this much is spent on winter, this much is spent on summer. Within winter, this much is spent on events, this much is spent on marketing, this much is spent on PR, this much is spent on admin. So you said, well, strategically speaking, how do we balance our expenditures between winter and summer? Strategically speaking, how do we balance our expenditures between events and marketing? And how do we look from a productivity efficiency point of view, with what percent of the total spend is on admin? And what about PR and et cetera? So that was looking at it in sort of larger buckets and saying that those were matters of strategic intent. For instance, when we updated for your targeted comp plan, the strategic plan is when we added another targeted audience, which was the independent traveler that was emerging. They aren't ski clubs and they aren't continuing educations, but they're small groups of people who get together in Denver because their friends or because they belong to an association of young professionals. They're in San Francisco skiing, where should we go? Let's call up some folks, we're not a big group, but we're a group, but we're an informal group. We're not ski club of Toledo. And that's an increasing part of these folks who come and they make late choices and they come in fairly small groups and they don't typically come and stay like a family from Brazil for a week or two, et cetera. So that was part of what happened when we updated the strategic plan. We reconfirmed. I mean, one of this things in the strategic plan this time that we may or may not in the future spend so much time on was this notion of product development. I know when we met with you last time there was some talk about product development. Product development is not in the hands of you except through land use 623 units and base village an average of 1.7 bedrooms not an average of four bedrooms. That's product development through land use. The marketing folks, we have very little control over what the product is. But now what we did in the strategic plan is we spoke to some of the work that was done because base village had been placing that work in the forefront as to what we thought the product best be. And it spoke to the role of fractional product versus the role of holy owned traditional. We spoke to the role of, we needed 45% or so of our lodging properties to be group, a 10B friendly, to be first time trial friendly, IE smaller units rather than bigger units. But we just spoke to that as desirable in terms of the product we think we could most effectively market. But we really have no way to say that was the product that the village of Snowmass was going to manufacture for us to go market. But we spent some time partially because it was feeding right into the targeted land use review. So sometimes in the strategic plan, we will almost address product as a wishless. What we think would be the best product for us to market. But we have no way to determine that. And we do have a way to say these are the target audiences that we're going to try to reach. Either through social media, or through various magazine picks, or through billboards in Denver, or whatever. So there's some things we can say, this is what we think as our strategic intent, and we'll guide our actions by that. There's some things we say we wish other people would provide us a product like this, because we think it would be best to market in terms of achieving the aspiration. John, do you have a question? I don't disagree with Bob, but I guess I want to know between what Bob's saying and what Mark is saying. Are we accomplishing that when we talk specifically to the powers and duties in that section? Section A is develop programs and policies to accomplish its purposes. To me, that's exactly where the strategic plan fits in. It's A, it's number one, and it's up to you, the board to develop it. It doesn't say in there, it never has, said for approval by council. Okay? Now maybe we don't interpret developed programs and policies to accomplish its purposes to mean establish a strategic plan. But if you, with Bob, what he started with about a strategic plan that is, I don't know, two, four, five years I've heard here. And then an annual plan which draws from that as its preamble, and here's what we're going to do this year for it. And that business plan will include the relevant performance standards, now we're down to F. I guess what I'm seeing here is, when I look at the powers and duties are that there there seems to be a method to the way it was laid out and developing the programs and policies to me that's where the strategic plan is. No, that doesn't that's not what it says to me. Okay. We need to have some clarity on some of this stuff at some point because strategic plan would is normally what a board approves vis-a-vis the council, the highest right now. This I've never seen a strategic plan approved by a committee. I see a strategic plan approved by a board and then the tactical elements are worked through by the committee to achieve the strategic plan. John and everyone, maybe they're trying to cut to the chase if it were just me and it's not. I would say the budget approval is as it's always been for council. And I would say that budget discussion should be held within the context of an informed council informed by the strategic plan. Now if council would like to believe that that strategic plan should be approved by them and it should be called out for review when they you think it's time for it to be reviewed. I, for instance, never when I work with folks put a time limit on when you review the I say every year you take a look at it and you suggest it's okay as red or we should review it. I mean I could imagine that there could be a period of six months after we agreed it was okay. We decided that the world is changing such a way we ought to think about reviewing it. So I would just say that annually, you know, the budget approval process would include the marketing board's recommendation as to the current suitability of the strategic plan to leave it as read and approve or to update it. So you, the council, in the budget, approve the budget, I would say from a so-to-non-detail programmatic tactical level, and you agree the strategic plan is fit for purpose, or it needs to be reviewed. And when it's reviewed, you agree that it's now fit for purpose. So budget approval, strategic plan fit for purpose is new folks. It comes to the business plan. I see that as more a tactical, programmatic, execution kind of things. Frankly, I think that's for the board. And if the board doesn't have that authority, the board is gone from having some reasonable, and it says that in the bylaws, a reasonable amount of autonomy, having no decision-making authority at all. And to be honest with you, that I think this board should have some level of decision making authority as it goes annually through its business planning tactics and programs in order to fulfill and achieve. Strategic plan. Yeah, I mean, just to rest. I'm afraid. And again, I do think if we define strategic plan, we should be clear what that is and what a business plan is. I know some of the most productive discussions that occurred over the last six months with FAB, the marketing board and you have been around what's the goal, what are we trying to achieve? And then how do we measure progress in achievement around that goal? So whether we call it business plan or a strategic plan, I think it's critical that we have agreed goals in a means of measurement around those goals. I think having clarity and agreement around that is absolutely critical in your annual budget process to make sure there's a clear understanding of when we achieve those goals that we can celebrate it and we can make corrections if we don't. Those goals should be in your strategic plan. That's where they belong. Fred, I disagree, Markey. The goals should be in the business plan. There should be performance standards and we should annually or semi-annually, I should say, reportedly, I beg your pardon, see how the marketing committee is meeting at plan and meeting those performance standards. That's what the code has said for years. That's what we have not done for years, and that's what I think we need to start doing. I would hope that we would approve a strategic plan. I think we, and we're not talking some ideas here. We're talking important business terms. And strategic plan is a whole different issue than a tactical plan. So what I'm hearing us say as a council is we want to only really look at the business plan. We don't really care about the strategic plan. That's what I am hearing. No, I don't know. Well, we don't have anything in here as we approve the strategic plan. We don't really care about the strategic plan. That's what I am hearing. No, I don't think that's true. Well, we don't have anything in here. It says we approve the strategic plan. We approve the budget. Well, that's not a strategic plan. Well, I don't believe it. I'm sorry. Well, I never seen the strategic plan. Yeah. If I could just share my thoughts on this one, I appreciate it. And I wasn't president at the governance meeting. That's probably a good thing. It would have gone even longer than it went, I understand. But, you know, in my opinion, you know, I've been working this board for a number of years and in other situations as well as that, you know, the way it's been working with council approving the budget has been an essential tool. And I actually agree with Bob. we haven't talked about this, but the strategic plan which provides the long-term direction, call it three years plus, direction four of the work of this board, should be present, it should be agreed upon, and it should be essential. So that I think is always present, even when an annual budget review is coming up. I think it's the board's job to present and create a strategic plan and use that as a guiding light at all times. And I think the council should be in agreement with that. I don't think it's an annual discussion. I think it, for example, it can be always present, it can be referred back to. And if someone is feeling that the board is out of alignment with the strategic plan, then they should bring it up. And the hammer is always the budget. But I think that's one thing. The second thing is that you mentioned the goals, which are very important. I think the strategic plan should have goals. And in an annual business plan, a more tactical plan, which I think is also another important thing here, there should be the metrics, the targets that we've talked about. There are very specific measurements. I see that as being different than goals. Goals are we are going to establish, no messy, you know, this light and that light in. But the metrics that we work so hard on recently in clarifying, I believe, are different than just the goals. There should be goals present in a strategic plan, absolutely. And those inform the budget, and I agree with Bob on that. So I think that when I see it, I see the council agreeing to the budget should be comfortable in accepting of the strategic plan, which includes goals. A way in it will ask a little piece, which is, you know, we're talking about the business plan piece. I do believe the business plan, by its very essence, on an annual basis needs to be very tactical. It will reflect what's in the strategic plan. It'll reflect the goals, but it's going to have specific metrics in it, and it's going to have very tactical actions. And it's going to have specific metrics in it, and it's going to have very tactical actions. And it's up to the board to get, you know, work with staff on that. I see that as being a board duty. And the analogy that I would use is that a board of directors deals with an annual business plan, but the ownership, which I view you folks as representing the ownership. You control the money and you should control the money and you vote on the money. So I think the ownership has the ultimate hammer which is controlling the money. The board should work on the business plan and share it. But I think the control should go strategic plan, supporting the budget, board works on the business plan. That's just my thoughts. And I would see your report coming back in on a quarterly basis just to be performance against the plan as the important element. But the control for a strategic plan is here for a final approval, but not the tactical plan. Yeah, I think, you know, we're jumping around these words here, but I think you're right, you know, the goal is, we want people heads and beds and bring them here and have a great time in Stolman's Village where they always want to come back and we've got amenities and things to do. The metrics are, we're going to do that by 15% next year. And how do we measure that? How do we decide we got to that number? Or no, we got to 7%. And we look at it quarterly to say, we're not attaining that. What do we need to change in our game plan, our business plan to make this workforce also. So, you know, I think that our ordinance here speaks a lot of this stuff, but I think that there is going to be time to work it. You know, I've heard there's been a discussion that some people don't want us to approve, have the council approve a business plan annually. But I think that that's part of the deal where we understand what the metrics are, the approve of a business plan annually. But I think that that's part of the deal where we understand what the metrics are, the community understands what the metrics are, and this is, you know, it goes up to the strategic plan of bringing certain number of people into this community. So, you know, personally, I believe that this language gets us there. No, it's pass-ass, it's pass-ackwards. Sorry. That's not the way you do this. John, I'm comfortable with the way this has been crafted. We discussed this at length over several meetings, and I'd like to call a question. Well, any other? OK. You've had the question call after we called for. So let's do that. This is an ordinance, so it needs to be roll call. Roll call please Barbara. Okay. Cooker? Yes. Okay. Wilkinson? Yes. Weon? Yes. Weino? Yes. Butler? No. Hayber. No. Three, two. We got it passed. Need some work because I think you were all aware of that. I think you guys did a very nice job last meeting and helping this. I understand there are some areas that could be changed. I think we'll look at that as we go, but I think that there are, you know, we'll move forward. Sorry, Todd. Okay. Okay. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Now we're gonna move back to number nine. Follow up on the next steps for the CIP planning. You looking at your watch, you know, we heard No, no, no, no. If you remember back in September, in August, we actually went through a thorough presentation of all the projects then in September. We came back and presented the 22 remaining projects and we discussed most of them fully and then you all rated them on a low medium and high scale which is one, two, and three. And so I took notes during that meeting, our CIP staff group met and our whole goal of actually putting this memo together is to make sure that we got do tonight was actually just go there about six items Is to go through those to see if staff correctly cataloged your wishes and then if there's other things you want to change your ad to that we can do that as well Okay, so council findings number one you have on the end so actually you hit on this one a little bit earlier when David Peckler was here we did consolidate all the West Village projects into one projects which you hit on this one a little bit earlier when David Peckler was here. We did consolidate all the West Village projects into one projects, which you see on the spreadsheet. And as it indicates here, David's going to come back January 9th and give you a full-blown presentation on where we've been with all of those projects. So I'm welcome them. So one thing I want to make sure that we don't lose sight of is the funding place marker we have on the UOTC budget for 6.4 million. And that has to be all part of this. I mean, our intent is to use that money in some manner for a project. That's why we're doing, we want to do this at the same meeting so you get the history of VOTC, but this will be a key issue, and you need to be well grounded. And what the heck were we talking about in 2002, 2003, and probably for the last 20 years around this issue? But I just want, yeah, we all understand this. That's the best thing. We get it, but I just want to make sure that it's a method to the madness with the timing. Because we've got to be able to go back to the EOTC and say here we are. We're doing it, man. Jason? I don't think I'm following why this is a priority topic in 2012. Oh, to be clear what you said when we discussed this was let's start at where we were, where we last discussed this. So let's make sure we understand what was kicked around when we talked about the West Village transportation planning. And again, you are also talking about EOTC that that was an issue in terms of, are we going to use that 7 million or not? Correct. Which is now 6.4. I guess. So this is just an educational piece in terms of what was last discussed and what you- My previous council. Right. Yeah. And again, it's more than- it's a significant period of time, but David's going to show you the last time we spent money on this. And the questions you could be asked would be be you want to do anything with this further in terms of further design development is there something you want to look at in terms of controlling our own fate with $6.58 million or should we just wait until there's a private partner in the future? Also on the September 12 meeting we talked about the individual projects, talked about combining them. We also mentioned you couldn't take care of this in 10 minutes. So we thought we heard the council say come back with that as a separate issue and a separate agenda item. That's why David has developed the background on that we intend to come back on January 9th. So coming out of that will be, I'll be better informed, informed but will still have $6 million against a $50 million project. This is just an informational item so you're prepared to talk about it further when you inevitably get some tough questions in EOTC. Good. Also when on September 12th when we talked about what I've always called entryway planning phase three Which is really the undeveloped portion of the town park area. That's the rodeo arena area as you know We actually had some planning efforts that were going on for that undeveloped area until the bottom dropped out of the real estate transfer tax We pretty much developed about two-thirds of that and at the September 12 meeting, I think I heard that because we always seem to be getting increasing demands on that area everywhere from ice rinks, multi-event facilities. Let's possibly develop our RFP for that, go into the programming that might occur in that area. Right now we have an identified money that they could actually pay for that, but I think you wanted to at least make that effort. And you asked us to include discussion of the ice rink as well as the visitor center in that area because we already, we already did have a spot further down the road that was a part of that whole original entryway planning process. So that's what I heard on September 12th and the thought was we could, by March 1st, that we would come back with sort of a programming effort on your part as well as a review draft RFP. The question for you. I'm welcome to the first. I'm sorry. Good, Marky. I just like to know what the parameters are. What the geographical boundary of what you're talking about here, I kind of get it, but I like to see the whole thing, and that can be part of what you're talking about here, I kind of get it, but I'd like to see the whole thing. And that can be part of what you do. And also include the pond and potentially tennis relocation if that really is an issue we need to talk about. Because I brought that up when the tennis people came here. I wasn't comfortable with going forward with their poles until I knew if that was indeed the right place. Maybe there's a better place. But I think that discussion needs to be in that. Yeah, without a map here essentially, essentially got the rodeo arena area and then also the pond, the wetlands and everything that actually goes to the east to where you actually enter into the, where the booths are, where we used to have the, that was where our visitor center needed. And actually there's a location there for the visitor center needed. Yeah, and actually there's a location there for the visitor center at some point, but that was put on hold to that whole area. I had, and tell you mentioned, I didn't, I thought the issue mainly with the tennis was the bubble, not the actual location or what we have now, because that preceded, that preceded actually development of the rodeo property and as an outdoor facility without the bubble, I personally don't think it's an issue but you certainly could raise it at that time. Well, you know, I just don't like to hear it. I'll be discussed. I think we'll go very far. Right. Yeah. And you're talking about on the other side the entry where we were going to have the nature center. Is that what you're when you say visitor center? We had we the visitor there isn't one there now. You know, but we actually had a site for a visitor center just as you entered into the pull out on the other. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where the booth's on. Marky and actually there have been actually internally we've talked about a bunch of other things that could happen in that area. As well and that would be the opportunity to roll all those things. Right. Right. Including and John might bring we bring bring up the relationship between that property and the property that's for sale behind it. Oh, Markie. Well, is this going to be, when I was on planning, I thought we had a whole master plan for this entire area, the entry way? Is this an update or is it total way a new RFP? What I would do is we come back with what the latest plan in that we had for that area but times have changed a little bit and I think the visitor center I know have heard that maybe we don't locate it where it is. I think it would make sense for this particular council to confirm that all the things that we wanted to put down there is still what you want to put down because the previous plan was a clean slate right now. Not to have built on it. So I think it's appropriate. We're going to look at the last master plan. It must have been money on something that we don't have to. Right. The third item, I'm going to try to get that done by April 1st. I'm a little bit sure to staff on that, but I already got done. That's what the council directed us on the 12th. So regarding a building replacement schedule for all the facilities that have down has, similar to what housing does for roof replacements, for boiler replacements, that's what it is. As you notice, you didn't see a project list that listed all that out. We need to do that, because it's a fairly significant amount of money. We need to know what's going to take to keep our house in order. Number four, I wasn't sure. I thought I heard somebody, and I don't know if it was a council consensus that if Jason actually went and is employed with a town earlier to actually have, I think as a plan with SGM that shows how parking lot could be created on the point site. Seeing to me, the thought would be, is go back and look at that plan, see what it would cost to actually just create a gravel lot. Or maybe something smaller than that. But I wasn't quite sure when I was with you all back in September that's something you want us to look at, but I stuck it on here. Mr. Wilkinson? You know, when we originally were looking at this site for approval, we did discuss it length, possibly having it over there. And there was some discussion whether or not that'd be appropriate to do anything. And I'm not, you need to go back and take a look at that. I'm in favor of the idea because we do have an issue with parking up here on certain days. But to revisit the history of the approval of this site, it would be part of that. But I agree conceptually. Also, I agree that the appropriate place to look at. Yep. Jason. Yeah, I think the approval of this project was predicated on a pretty aggressive traffic management plan. Right. Several strategies, I think, that were laid out around that idea. I don't know that we've really tried too hard to go down that path. I'm not really in favor of converting the point to a parking lot at this point. Fred, that's just me. I thought it might have ended up being just temporary until something goes out. I mean, I think a gravel site means it's not, you know, it's temporary, even the pave lot could be temporary lot. And that could be wrong, but if I remember what we did with SGM at the time was not necessarily putting, turning the whole point site into a portion, just like pulling off the road with just, yeah, numbers, a little pull off. The basis that came out. Yeah, it didn't take up the whole site. I didn't really look at it. Right. So let's go forward and look at that number four. Okay. The fifth item we had. No, wait, wait. If the cost could be kept low, what are we? Well, I don't know what that means. Well, you know, we say, I'll tell you what, it won't take cost to do that. I was a good assing. I was a good assing. That's what I'm waiting for. You know? Okay. Do we want to bubble over that? We're going to our best. Well, you're the month gets to pay. I'll tell you what, I'll talk to my boss about how much you, oh, I'll call it, actually, figure out what it'll cost. Please do that. Okay. The trails to transit project was if you remember what that's all about, as we have a trail system out here, we have a bunch of bus stops, and there's probably some gaps. The thought was to put that as far as into the trails and the astroplane process, which I've just put on here is something we ought to do. I think the research I went through the 80s, I haven't been through the 90s, talked to John a little bit, I think the actually last trail's master plan update, and actually was codified was in May of 1988. And I think it's something that we should be doing anyway. So we thought we just added to the council's added to that process. Good. You agree we'll do that. And the last one was basically to remove this domestic on project from the list, because that's kind of being handled through a non-profit. So it was really good. But on their times when some people may think that they're going to try to come to the town for some funding somewhere, you know, it wouldn't be a... They certainly may. I don't know if Jason, you've raised your hand to volunteer for the 501-C3, but they certainly could be knocking on our door in the future. In the town, you may continue to hear recommendations, say from marketing on the exhibit. And don't know if that will occur, but you certainly could hear recommendation. Okay. It doesn't sound like this statement precludes public funding support, but it's not going to be a town managed capital improvement. It's not going to be a time action. I'm not going to be a time action. One thing that's not on this list, because you didn't give me a direction on it at the September meeting, but on our own town staff is basically looked at some conceptual planning efforts for the brush creek owl creek roundabout and I've had some work on it enough that I could actually get the internal staff that are going to be impacted by that police transportation myself. We're going to start kind of working on that obviously there isn't any funding for it at the moment. But there might be a way that we could take a look at it in the future of funding increases. So we're doing that on our own. We didn't direct us to do it. That's the brush creek out creek kind of about. And right now, all I've said about the wood road, brush creek kind of, kind of of dependent on we're on hold until the new hole in the Celebrity Merge now what's the opportunity for the town to say you know we're tired of waiting let's just find it bond for it let's make make it work and then have people buy into the development of that roundabout is that doable absolutely I mean and you know it's something we've debated internally. Are we increasingly concerned there in that alkrich about safety issues? Hunt, what do we still owe on that project if we had to develop 800,000? Right now we have, I have earmarked every year, I think, 800,000. It's in 2012, I don't think that's going to happen. So I just keep pushing it to make sure we have it there. Well, can we push it to the point where we start saving to build? Well, well, what would be the next steps, if we said let's go, we would need to do some additional design work. Correct. We'd have to fund the additional design work. And then we'd have to do the only way I can think of doing is really bond the fund. You'd have to bond it. You might not necessarily be reimbursed for any design work that you do now under the existing funding agreement for it because that obligation was on the development that I developed across the street. I would also caution you that there's potential for development on this side of the road and the other side of the road and designing and building a roundabout that could be obsolete because of future near future development or redevelopment might be problematic. Well I guess we've always been worried about but at some point you know the community has to say this is not a safe area. I mean last night I was driving down here and I saw four people trying to get across that in a dark intersection with all their groceries and you know thank goodness I saw them and stopped and let them across but you know. I crossed the same intersection on Friday. It just happened and noticed that the street lights out. So it's even darker than you're saying. And that's how it is. I don't know. Whether we need to do something to say, look, this is not safe. It's something that the community really needs to address. I'm wondering if we need to push that button and say we need to move forward. Well, there's two asked Hunt and Dean Gordon to also look at if there was nothing in the future and there was no practical way of moving forward. Is there something that could be done from a traffic calming standpoint to enhance safety? It wouldn't be as good as a final solution. They did have some initial ideas. If that's something you wanted to look at, we could discuss that further. Again, we have $800,000 that will contribute in some form or fashion, John's right. That design could change if, say, the conoco site or the center developed in the future. They may have to design themselves around us too. I mean, that's what other communities do. We might. Absolutely. I'm just, that was part of what I said. That was the second part. I understand that the design responsibility for that, although it would be approved by public works, the financial responsibility as the agreement is tailored now is on them. So to advance design funds does not necessarily mean that they would be reimbursable by a developer under the terms of that agreement. I guess my own recommendation on you know the bigger picture is you know let's take a hard look at where we are in the first quarter of next year, I think either we're going to see a new developer owner emerge or we may have the banks knocking on the door looking for a pathway forward and we're going to need to think about that very strategically. Yeah, because I think the council and the community need to sort of step up and say that's very important to have it up front instead of waiting, waiting, waiting. But that's my personal feeling. Well, I guess the question is, could you wait into the first quarter of next year? Yes, we can. I think we wait that long. Moving on. So that's what we wrote down. It was anything else that there was anything we missed or anything you thought up since then that you'd like to add to this list? No, I just have a question. We do this annually. Go over the CF. We haven't done this in five years. Yeah. I think it's helpful to just keep a list handy and look at it on an annual basis because things do morph as a good thing of the year or so. You spent a lot of time in your budget process in previous years when we had money. Right. And so it was a point of discussion in the budget process, but since we've had no money, it was a good opportunity to go back in history. Yeah, Jason. This is not really related to the CIP discussion, but just if we could get a quick update since you're here, the patch on Brush Creek Road that was done by the water district is a serious hazard. I was sitting here, I didn't know that. They've been contacted. Independently, we're actually taking a look at an asphalt contractor about what he would recommend, because that was cold patch, terrible patch. It is a safety item, and I don't think kid is responded by four o'clock this afternoon, and I'll get on it tomorrow morning, but it is an issue. Is it something that we should be doing, building back to them? Well, I think from a public state, if they don't do anything, that's what we have to do. And we're trying to figure out what the best way to do it is. Well, do it before it gets to below zero again. Well, we want to fix before we get, obviously, to the weekend. Is it cold front coming in just? Well, what do you think can be done, honestly, with, you know, before the weekend? They could come back in and... I'm going to tear it out and actually do cold patch better, but we're actually contacting RIPI, who's the closest to see if there's another product that we could use that'll hold up. That's the problem with cold patches at the wintertime, unfortunately. Right. If we don't put hot mix down, ideally you want to done between April and October. Unfortunately, this busted. Right. We didn't have that opportunity. That choice. All the right to date. All the hot mix plants, obviously, are close. But today, so like you're saying, use infrared. You know, that's a part of what we've suggested that didn't occur on that. So that's one of the options. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. Moving on, we have a manager's report. Just a couple other things to add to that. First I think Jason raised the question about the ice skating rink. We have been contacted by Tom Yokem of Snowmass Western Heritage. They are having problems securing insurance for that operation. It is something their board is obviously, and for good reason, wanting insurance so that they're protected. He has asked, could the town operate this? We've contacted our insurance company. Again, they've been fairly clear that if we're operating it with our insurance, it's our operation. It has to be managed by the town and would require staffing of the facility, which generates a cost. It's been inferred that they might be willing to, and I think it's the individual that's been supporting a lot of the cost, there might be a willingness to support whatever that cost is. We don't have a time frame. This came fairly recently in the last week. And Hunt is looking at a budget if we would operate it, but I just need to let you know. Their board has got a serious issue with insurance. They've made that request to us. What is the issue with insurance? Is it being able to secure or being willing to pay? I don't know what they're specific. I think the specific issue there, their hitting is getting an adequate insurance policy that provides adequate coverage for their board from liability and I assume it's a cost issue. Okay. Here's a question for you. If we were to take this on, does our town allow for volunteers? To manage it. To manage it. I guess that would be a specific question we'd have to ask. Because I'm thinking about volunteer workforce that we've had conversations about. It seems like the variation on the volunteer workforce. Well, again, this would not only be supervising the ice, but you would be driving a piece of machinery, the Zamboni, which a lot of people would love to drive. In fact, I think Andy Warline did a Zamboni driving class before. So, you know, there is a little bit of training that goes with it. Something we can ask. Well, it'd be great to get that ice ring open during the holidays. That'd be nice to do that, but I'm not certain I want to spend a lot of town resources doing that. At that point, I believe I'd want to get ice sheets and I'd want to sharpenings booths. I'd want to have a whole number of things if it was a town deal. I'd have a more of a problem if the town had to run this thing honestly. If volunteers, you have a benefit issue. You have workers' compensation liability, I mean, it opens a hole. I guess that's what we probably would hear with this sort of scenario. It's one thing to do plantings or trail work. It's another thing to schedule people, although arguably we're doing it with a discovery center up in the mall. Yep. Is this something you would wanna entertain? No, not me. Again, when I said entertain, that's if somebody was willing to cut a check to compensate for costs. Well, there's more to it. I mean, it's what's the exposure to the town? Is there a community? I think we need to look at it. I don't think it's... Well, we could look at it, but the problem is it's so late in the game and it's going to be over before we get a chance. We won't meet again until January. And they've known, they've had to have known about this issue for a long time. I guess it's okay to look at it. I think three of us have said let's spend a little bit of time then looking at it. But honestly at the end of the day, I don't wanna expose the town to more, having to hire more people, put more people out there. If you can, you know, 20 minutes say, can you do volunteers and have them run it? But I don't think you're gonna find that. I mean, there's a reason. Cersei sees a liability issue with this. That's why they have some strong recommendations. But is this something you want us to come back to you with? I think we're January 9th. I think we should be engaged to support and try and help make that happen. However, we can if that just ends up not being reasonable, then we'll have the ability to make that just in that point, but it doesn't hurt anything to look into. I totally agree. I'll support the right side of the table. Thank you. Is that the right? Correct. My right side of the table. The only other heads up, this would be a scheduling issue. Again, at your next money, you needing you appoint boards again with the nomination process that we're trying to reinvigorate with the marketing board, particularly the restaurant group. Certainly will not make the 23rd, so you may not have a nominee from them by the deadline. So there still may be a few individuals or vacancies that may require filling. So I just wanted to give you a heads up on this. What was the deadline for depending after 23rd December? December. December. So, and I'm happy to answer any other questions. I think I just heard from our solid waste team they did forgot a little window to repaint. That was nice. Our way dumpster. I think it's done. Yep. That's it. That's it. Okay. Hey the old for us. So the manager agenda for next council meeting. No changes no questions. I may not be here. I Supposed to have surgery that day, but we're trying to get it changed Okay, Markkey may be out For surgery Approved meeting minutes September 19, 2011 So moved Markey second by Fred discussion All those in favor please signify the saying aye. I Opposed October 3 3rd, 2011. Move to approve. That's Fred. Second by Jason. Mr. Wilkinson. Yeah, on, let's see what page is this. 57 and it's talking about line 108. Line 108. It says mitigate energy use on site due to glare on the adjacent ski runs. I think this in reference to having solar panels. Yes. Yeah. So if you wanna just throw that in there. And I have some scribbling that I don't, can't read. With that addition of the solar to clarify that language All in favor Council come as committee reports calendars Mr. Cooker nothing Mr. Wilkinson you get a question. There's a new sign on brush creek road. And when you turn off at 82, says snowmass, didon discovery center, four miles. Do you know who put that up? I think we did. Why didn't we put it on 82 so that you turn off at 82 on to brush creek road? That probably has something to do with the department of transportation. To the state sometimes didn't do allow is parking found the site and I think they actually they had some dialogue I think with the appropriate person okay no I like seeing it I think it's great but I was just kind of curious it would be a nice place to get them to turn off 82 see if we can get a big variable message sign okay now works spots are Okay. That works. Spots are highway cleanup. What are the other members doing? Nope. Yeah. Okay. Nothing for me? Nothing for me. Jason? Just committee report, I guess the rest, did you get a copy of the email from Mark Fuller about dues for Waffa? I did. Okay. And we have that Just in case I'm going to have to Okay, great Is there a motion for adjournment? So moved. It's Fred. Second by Bill. Holds in favor? Ah, we adjourned. Any discussion? I'd like to keep Fred here for a few more minutes. Happy holidays. Indeed. Happy holidays. We went a long night, sorry for that council member, but there were some good discussions that happened there.