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The mayor is on vacation and I will be filling in for him for this evening. First on agenda is roll call, Ronda, please. Boy, go. Wilkinson. Here. Butler.kinson. Here. Butler. Aver. Here. Cooker. Here. Okay, thank you. Number three in our agenda is, oops, I skipped over number two. Public none. Agenda items, if anyone in the audience has anything they'd like to speak to us about that is not on the agenda tonight. Please face so. Now we'll move on. Item number three, Council updates. Jason. Nothing for me. Fred. Nothing. I just like to say congratulations to the Espen High School seniors that are graduating. And I'm looking forward to seeing them progress through the next level. And it'll be interesting to go to all the Ceremoids that are be going on in the next week It's about all I have first right now also like we're gonna be talking about it But I really wanted to the public to know that we appreciate the honoring of the closure on the Sky Mountain Park It was so tempting and I know it was tempting to me to look up there and see that trail and just go and I know it's good. But it really wasn't great that our community honored the closure in that now it's open and it does look like winters been up there. I mean, I've been up there three times since it's open. So, okay, moving on number four, Sky Mountain Park Plan. And we have Hunt Walker in Gary Tinnembaum from Pick and County Open Space and Trails here. Gentlemen, and we're gonna accept public comment at the end of the presentation. So please be sure you'll have enough time to give us what you'd like to talk to about. Yeah, this will be a pretty short presentation if you remember back in March, we brought before you the draft plan and went through it in pretty good detail everything from the trails to the wildlife mitigation, all those items. I wasn't going to go through that again, but I was going to highlight a couple of things. Put beforehand. One, but there are two things. One is, if you notice, I've asked for an approval by the town council of the Sky Mountain Park Plan. Since there is a resolution, it just be a motion at the end and it technically doesn't need to be a majority because that's on a motion, you can actually be two to one to actually approve the plan. And as I also said in that motion, you could actually be two to one to actually approve the plan. And as I also said in that motion, it doesn't mean that you're agreeing to any cost for implementing the plan. If you noticed on some of the costs that were listed, for 2012 there's about $22,000 assigned to the town of Somas. When Gary developed those cost estimates, he developed them in a way of his, as if he was hiring an outside contractor. For example, to actually open up and build, I guess, in a really fairly improved way, the Out Creek Trail head above the shop, it's listed in there $12,000. In fact, initially what I'm gonna do, and I haven't done it yet, and I should do it here pretty shortly as long as I don't interfere with the wildlife migration. I'll do that with the in-kind cruise. Also, you'll notice, for example, the rim line trail, which is scheduled to be done this year in the flat line trail, 14800, the other one's 20250, just like we did last year, just in fact with the extent. But the same way we did the view line trail, we'll use our in-house resources open space and trails will do the same thing. There will be some cause, for example, signage, that sort of thing. And as far as the cemetery trail head, as some of you know, we have work with a chapel on that, but we don't have an official actually plan for it nor do we have official approval from the cemetery to do that trailhead, but in concept they've agreed to it. That particular trail is going to need some more work because you just can't park on the area that we've outlined. You actually have to put some sub-bass and that, that sort of thing. So when we get to that, there will be some cost to that, but I hope I'm hoping that I can do that with a lot of my in-kind crew. So with that, I wanted to ask you if you have any questions about the cost issue. Just a very quick question, and it may or may not be related, but you were going to remove the boulders in front of the Tom Blake trail. That would provide some parking for the cemetery trail, would it? Actually, not both the cemetery trail in our last presentation. If you remember, we had an agreement with the chapel that we'd actually use the chapel road. And that would allow people to access the flatline trail, and would just be pedestrians and horses, not mountain bikers. But if they did park on the outbreak trail, they could access the high line trail, which allows them to keep on going and access the view line to get up. So it would help. And we have a lot of people over the 10 years approximately that it's been closed. People parked there to actually hit the Tom Blake trail and some of the trails that are on the Mountain portion are on the south side so I haven't looked but if you've done it Yeah, I need to do it. I was out of town for last week and so essentially what I intend to do with my own crews is To remove the boulders. I'm not gonna just Complete really move them so everybody can access that area I'm not going to just complete moving so everybody can access that area. A big spot. We'll direct them to get in there and there'll probably be six or seven spaces as there were in the past. And that I can do without any signage. That I can do 100% within kind labor and all my yellow pieces of equipment. Great. Thanks. Now you can move those existing boulders and just leave them there and just rearrange it as a perimeter kind of fencing Is that what you're thinking? Thank you John. Yes I was hoping that I'd be happy and involved you in the design process so we could I'm just pulling your work. Uh-oh. I'm gonna get fired Not yet. We'll get to that later So you're gonna do a presentation because I will you Because I assume that we all have some questions here. Well, I'll tell you what we have here. I was going to, I was also going to highlight the dog issue because I suspect it's going to come up. So I thought I'm not going to go through all the reasons why last time I was going to mention a couple of things and I was actually going to show a slide. And then I was just going to open up to questions. We do have five slides that we can refer to if both the council has questions as well as the public. Okay. So the first thing I wanted to do is talk about the, as you know, we've talked about a prohibition of dogs that's been recommended by the wildlife study not only on the drosely portion of the Sky Mountain Park, which is this red line here, but also over here on the North Rim Trail. What I wanted to point out is there's been a lot of confusion by people that have contacted us that we felt like people felt like we're closing the whole Rim Trail to dogs and that sort of thing. Let me explain what actually is out there. Right now, ordinance condition number 10 of ordinance number 14 of 1991 reads, dogs shall be prohibited on pedestrian trails in parcel one, which happens to be upward north base as described in ordinance number 10 series of 1987. And that, as you know, the whole 650 acres that is in upper North Besa as described in Ordnance Number 10 series of 1987. And that, as you know, the whole 650 acres that are in upper North Mesa was basically a part of that approval for wildlife protection. And that's where that provision is contained. So what you see in here in the red, the red is the North Rim Trail, it was an existing prohibition against dogs and that. And the Wildlife Study that was done last summer supported that. The good thing about the trails in this area, the Wildlife Study also said we don't need to keep the trails closed as long as we did. So now the trails are only closed from December 1st to May 15th. As also as a part of the wildlife study and actually something Picken County space and trails has always talked about is the whole, the trails that are contained in the drossly parcels, including the view line up in upper North racer, the recommendation is their dogs are prohibited prohibit on that trail. The reason why I want to show this slide, you got a red line there, dogs prohibited. Red line here currently on the brush pre-trail, the dogs are prohibited. No, I've got a long, I'm looking at the long, there's a seasonal closure there, dogs are prohibited there. Every trail that you see in snowmassing green as well as greater picking county, dogs can use those trails and I just wanted to point out a couple other things, is if you allow dogs on trails, there's a greater impact than just the trail width. And so when the wildlife, when we were looking at actually, you know, talking and planning for trails on all of Sky Mountain Park, the reason why we can do more trails than less trails is because dogs aren't allowed or prohibit on those trails. If you started allowing dogs on those trails, it actually would probably minimize the number of trails that we can do. Also, we had a lot of public comment from people that were actually happy that we actually had an area where they could hike bike or ride horses and didn't have to worry about dogs. So that's another reason. And I think Gary did a really good job in his memo sort of outlining why dogs are being prohibited, prohibited on trails. And those are the two issues. Dogs and hunting that actually came up in most of the public comment that we received. So I just wanted to point, use this slide just to point out that this is already prohibited, it is recommended in this area more than likely, picking county open space in trails as well as the Bocc, as well as the city Aspen will be supporting that too. No matter if they picking county open space in trails actually has already approved, is that correct? Yeah. Okay. So Hunt, Fred has a question. Yeah, let me get out on the phone. So actually, we have the other five slides if there's some, I think as Mayor Pro Tem has pointed out, questions from the council, and we have these slides, we'll be able to answer any question you would like, and then I assume when you open it up, the public will try to answer their questions as well, if you can. Well, so now we're ready for questions. This is the question, this is the question. I think because I think people are confused about the difference between North Rim and Frosty. North Rim, so everybody understands, is, North Rim Trail is part of the horse ranch PUD. Right. The Northland Trail is part of the horse ranch, PUD. And it is the PUD, the restriction in the PUD that has been there for 20 years. That prohibits dogs. It's not that the town has approved the PUD 20 odd years ago. The trustee property is a different issue because that's now basically just the county that's regulating that. But in order to remove that restriction, what would have to happen is that every property owner in horse ranch would have to agree to it. So it is very difficult to legally remove it. That said, it has been there for 20 years and there have been dogs there for 20 years. Thank you, Fred. I'm glad you brought that up because it is relevant to where we're at with the rim trail in the dog situation. How would you mind running through the next slides? I think it's important to hear about the wildlife protection that is being enabled by this plan. This will be, this is the wildlife habitat improvements page. This has changed a little bit since the last time we spoke in March. And the wildlife habitat improvements is basically everything we're going to be doing to, you know, change the habitat. The habitat there, as everyone knows, it's gambler oak, it's sagebrush. It is very heavily disturbance driven. It needs disturbance to keep into a healthy habitat. There hasn't been any disturbance up there in a really long time. We're well out of our range of variability, usually in a normal area where gamboloque, service barri and sage rush are, we do get some type of disturbance usually fire every about 50 years, 25 to 50 years. It's been well over 50 years since that happens, so we're going to be doing some habitat improvement work up there. And that is in the orange areas outlined here. And on this map, I also put all of the potential trails that are proposed in this plan. And it shows some of these trails going right through these habitat types. And you know all the reasons why, you know, the division of wildlife was not very happy about this, but you know all the reasons why we feel very comfortable with this was to, with the dog limitation, the dogs will be limited to the edges, more edges of the property and on other areas that already experienced dogs where this area has not. And this would allow, you know, this is called the ditch line trail and it goes right in the middle. It looks like it's impacting habitat. But with no dogs on this, the habitat impact will be limited to the width of the trail, and otherwise it would not be. And so the other thing for the habitat improvement projects, one of the things that we did get some comments on was our proposal to do some hunting up there. And the hunting area would be totally on picking county open space. It would not go into Hidden Valley where the town of Snellmust Village is here. And also what it would do is, what we're proposing is for hunting is only during the last rifle season of the year. Not usually happens around the 12th,, 14th of November, and the last four to six days. And then basically the, what would be closed is the skyline ridge trail up here and in the future, the cozy line and ditch line. And that would be closed the four to six days to do hunting. We would have pretty significant signage in barriers to get people not to go up there. But you would still be allowed to do the View Line Trail from Snowmass. Still be allowed to do radar web. Hopefully one day we're working on this airline trail. Talk about the second. But, you know, talking with the Division of Wildlife, I outlined it in the memo pretty well, but I wanted to reiterate it for people who have been read it, whereas providing hunting in this area is critical. Yes, it's not going to solve the overall issues of raw life habitat and the lack of habitat and our elk number issue that we have in this area due to lack of habitat, but incrementally not allowing refuge effects to happen in this area and hopefully the division of wildlife has worked really well with wildcat. And although a bigger area is Cougar Canyon, hopefully in the future and everywhere else, not shutting these areas off to hunting during the migration when the elk are moving through is a critical piece to help maintain habitat health and herd health of the elk in this area. It's a very limited hunt. It's only going to be up to five. We'll probably start with two the first year. It's going to be by watering and so it'll be basically, you know, it'll find a way to disturb some elk before they migrate through to the winter habitat and then once December 1st rolls around we stay off and we let the elk around and if there are natural predators in that area we let them take care of it. And so that's basically the habitat improvement stuff. That's the only stuff that's kind of changed a little bit since the last time. The other thing is this trail over here is the, called the last time. The other thing is, is this trail over here, is called the airline trail. It's an option to avoid the radar road. As anyone knows, the radar road is extremely steep, and we've been working with the airport. The airport has, you know, this property of the airport was purchased results of federal dollars, and the FAA has purchased, put some funding into the purchases property and FAA limits their funding to areas that are for airport operations only. And we are working with them right now to this area is really never going to be used for operations of the airport. It's on the steeper hill sides. It's up in areas that are away from the main areas of the airport. It's on the steeper hill sides. It's up in the areas that are away from the main areas of the airport. And I think if we're working with the airport and the airport supports this, we could have this thing called the airline trail, which we're going to map out a little better. But right here, it's about, we're averaging about a 7% grade where the airport, radar road right now, is average is about 16% grade where the airport radar road right now is averages about a 16% grade So it'll be a significantly easier trail to get off plus give you great views of the airport My son is gonna love watching the airplanes take off and so it's another little amenity there and So that's another good change that's happened and we're still working with the airport a mock I can't say I finalize it but those were the thing. Then priorities. Priorities where we worked with the community to see where the priorities were for building new trails. The Cozy Line Trail came out towards the top. The Cozy Line Trail, if we go back to this page, is this trail that connects the intercept lot and cozy point ranch up to Skyline Ridge. And then the next one was the rim line trail. The rim line trail is this one that connects the existing rim on an old trail here. Well, some rerouts going to occur, especially down here, and then you would connect to the brush Creek trail down here Provide another loop option through there since that trail is Relatively Established now we just need to work on it We're hoping we can get that done this year too, and that's one of the things that we're gonna work on with Huntscrew And then as we go down the list, as you can see, we're starting into 2013. And there's some two-be-determins because the airport trail is something that we're not definite on. View line to Highline, that was this trail that connects the view line here to the Highline. We're trying to work with this neighboring landowners on this side because there's an old radar radio tower road. A lot of people use it. It's trespassing, but right now the landowners haven't really done anything but they could shut it off at any time. But we're trying to find either can we use that or something. And so we're going to work with them over this year to really find a way to see if this is anything more feasible to do that otherwise we'll find another alignment to connect around. Flatline 2 is Hunter already talked to you guys about the flatline equestrian and hiking trail to separate bikes and horses on this area. Other trails is that bitch line will happen to about 2014 and then some cozy point south and cozy point ranch connections and then one of the cool ones is working with the buttermilk master plan is how do you connect has been the snowmass via dirt or via trail and not having to take you know roads parking or anything like that. This, hopefully, during the buttermilk master plan will be able to connect all the way through to Aspen via trail, and they connect via trail to the Zaireline trail and they connect all the way back to Snowmass Village, and then you can connect to Snowmass Village trails. So it really does what we set out to do is to connect to two communities. And then we already talked about the trail heads, existing trail projects we have a lot to work on together. We got some of the questioner and trails on up on earth, Mesa, need some work. And I think we're definitely going to work with the crews over the next two years and the questioner and community to work on that one. And then, you know, the other one is the skyline ridge is, you know, it looks great, but anyone who's trying to bike it and stuff, there's some areas where the trails just go straight up and straight down. And so we're going to be working to get those re-rooted. We have a National Trails Day project that we're working with the town of Svillais Village and the city has been on June 2nd and hopefully we get a ton of people out on that one. That's the date for the National Trails Day. National Trails Day June 2nd. Is that one we're going to do that trail project up there? Yes. That's just in a couple of weeks. A couple of weeks. Well we're going to do skyline ridge re-ro. So we already have the reroutes scheduled, and it's already planned out. So that's on the skyline ridge ecosystem trails. And here's just the summary of public comments that we have received. And so as we go through this, I mean, you can see how on the public comment, wildlife protection and recreation acts as for our number one public comments that we receive. I think we'll have to put the ball aside for the recreation access. It's not the easiest to do both of those, but I think we and our clan came up with the best possible world. And then we can see some of the other ones we got. We're not by, we didn't get any negative mountain bike comments, so I just said positive. Hiking, we didn't get any negatives, or on a question, we didn't get any negatives. And then on hunting, we did get some negative, but we also, it seems as you can see, we got more positive on the hunting aspect than the negative on the comments. Dogs were the same thing. You got more negative on dog was to keep dogs off. That was a higher level of public comment than we received for dog positive. And then got a couple on Snorty Skate and we got one on continuing agriculture. That's his summary on that one. And I think that was it. Great. Thank you Gary. Thank you, Hunt. Questions from Council? Fred? I'd rather wait for the public to speak. Okay. Jason, do you have any questions? I can wait for public in part two. Okay, just a couple of questions. Gary on the, well actually it's a hunt question. On the flat line it was number three and that was the horse connection. Is there any way we could get that potentially moved up to this year? The issue is that have sharing horses that are using our rodeo area with the bike and hiking public on the view line trail has become an issue. It was an issue and I was hoping that we might be able to get that done this summer. And I know you may not have the budget for that or the staff, but I think there's enough people in the community that be willing to go out and help put a trail in for their own specific use. Right at the moment I don't have the staff or budget to do it. I can carry and I can talk about it. I know the sooner that we get to have one done the better, the quicker that we can actually separate the uses. But at the moment, as you can see, it's scheduled for 2013. But I'll just take your comment under consideration to see what we can do. I know the worst back because I've had several emails from the worst cutback community that they would be happy to help with. That the first thing is we kind of have to do some things in order. First of all, I'd like to be able to work with the council and get the chaplain, get their approval of that, even though we do have the right to put a trail through there. I'd like to work on, you know, be able to establish that particular trailhead, which you noticed on the slide was, might take, it'll take some time to get that trailhead built. Plus we have any, as you know, most of these trailblaeners, just like the view line, we've kind of guessed where they should go, but until you got in the field, you don't know the actual alignment so if a hundred horseback riders weren't to go up there we don't have a place to tell them to where to cut the trail in but we'll take your input and see what you know we'll kick it around. Well I certainly like to see that this year that would probably be my top priority at least from snowmass field side and I'm happy to volunteer to help out in that effort I've met with the horse council twice last year, and I know they're enthusiastic about getting their own trail as well because it's tough on a narrow trail like that. So on on that. Yeah. I would recommend making sure the trail head goes in before you open that trail because horse people won't be able to access it without that trail head because otherwise they have to come on the area of the High Line Trail that is closed to horses currently. So that would be one consideration would be to get that trail head built if you're going to do that trail because otherwise the horses really can't get to it. Well, let's kick that back to subcommittee for the trails if you'd like and that might be the best way to do that. Second question for you, Gary, on I know we're going to talk about it a little bit further, but if you could explain on the dog issue on the Skyline Mountain Park. It was my understanding when the approvals were put into place for Peter Dosedy to develop that property, the homeowners that were going to be able to buy homes up there. Dogs were not even going to be permitted to be on that site, on their home site. Can you fill us in on that? Under the Pick and County Land use code right now, there's no development allowed in critical wildlife habitat areas. And you can obviously take somebody's property we fought with the trustees on how much development can be up there and we always felt that there was too much they wanted more and that's where the fight lay but you have to allow some type of development but to mitigate for that development in the critical wildlife area no dogs were going to be allowed in if you do have to allow some type of development in critical wildlife areas in the Picking County Code, you're not allowed to have dogs. So that's one of the many reasons why, you know, in the private land, if you had a private house up there, you wouldn't be allowed to have a dog. So, you know, it only makes sense if you are, you know, if the public agency comes in and develops a trail that they shouldn't be allowed to have dogs either, but all while life study and, you know, the reality of that area being, you know, relatively dog free up until this time where public has been up there, that's, there's a lot of different reasons why we recommended that. Okay. Okay. I'll go to the committee. I'll go to the committee. Two questions. One, if you mentioned the date change on the North Rim Trail, could you speak to what the science was behind that in the Wildlife Study that you had? It used to be a date that was closed later in the season now. It's open earlier. What was the? It was one. I wouldn't recommend all the 1987, which is where this came from. Then approval 1991. Division of wildlife recommended the other. Hunt the microphone please. Yeah, thank you. The other. I sorry, recommended the other. Close your dates, which I believe were from November 1st to June 20th. And when we were considering doing, that's one of the reasons why we wanted to do the wildlife study this past summer. There were a ton of wildlife studies over on the East Village area when they approved the two creeks development over there in as well as the ski area. And even though the division of wildlife back in the late 80s recommended accepting the 650 acres for wildlife protection as well as actually up with North Mesa. There weren't really any wildlife studies. I looked and I couldn't find any wildlife studies where they actually base those recommendations. So we thought last year and we came before the council and asked and the council gave us permission to expand the wildlife study from the grocery property to our two parcels. And I don't have a wildlife study with me, but when they went through that and took a look at the impacts of trail users on the upper North Mace area, they said they reduced, they recommended to actually continue the dog man, but they said, you don't need to keep it closed as long as the division of wildlife recommended because there weren't the wildlife weren't there. They'd already passed through the area. So they recommended in the study to shorten that closure from December 1st to May 15th. And last week since I kind of knew that's what was going to happen on March or May 16th, because I wasn't sure whether it was through the 15th or 2th or 15th, we just opened it up. We opened up up in North Rim Trail, which is the only trail that exists in up in North Mason now. We opened it up on May 16th. And then to go further on that it was basically they thought it was a calving area. There's some aspirin stands up there that they thought was calving. And last year we looked and There was no calving on that property We're gonna continue to monitor those areas to see if calving does exist anywhere there But as of last year and so far this year has shown that you know you you close it to June 20th to protect calving areas Yeah, the migration period is basically, you know kind of a November 15th through about May 15th. And then after that point, they're mostly moved on to their cabing areas. So that's more why those dates have changed. Just since the public is here and other people watching, we haven't. That's only pertains to upper North Mesa, hidden valley, the closure dates, because of the cabing areas that are over in the East Village area still are maintained for Tom Blake sequel and those other trails that are on that side in government. And that was based on another study that we did in the 1990s. Yes, there was a very closure is a solid closure and that's one that is not even part of this plan that we're looking at. That's true, cabin area. I mean, they have mapped out as cabin area, and there's plenty of evidence that's that's cabin area. And just another question. Have you noticed anything different since this year was so much different than last year in terms of snowpack? As you know, with the wildlife change, and everything else going on? One of the things that we have started was to monitor the basically the alcohol movement through the property during the spring season. Because the spring is a critical time for them, more so than in the fall, because the spring is when they are very pregnant and they're moving to their calving area. And so it's a critical time to get as much nourishment as possible before they have in approximately right now and so What we're watching is what kind of use is occurring on the properties and at what time and how much and so we're trying to figure out is Just because the snow left does that mean the elk left too and there was a good question because a lot of people were like well I don't see any snow so don't worry about it let's go up there. Well what we're doing is monitoring and this year was a great year to monitor because it was so low and last year was a great year to monitor because it was so high and so now we have the two extremes and now we could see regular but you know what we have seen through a wildlife cameras and through studying up there is that wildlife was still using the property in significant numbers to quite to basically qualify for closing as of about the ninth of May. So we're going to see you over time. We're very comfortable with the date now and maybe in the future we can flex dates if we can find some better science to flex those dates. Okay, we're good. We'll take some public comment at this time. Anyone that wishes to speak on this please step up to the microphone and identify yourself. Dave. Thank you. My name is Dr. Allen Altman. I live on Brecht Creek Road, with respect to the prohibition of dogs on this trail. Let me start by saying that as a physician, when I present data, it is data that is peer reviewed, it is data that is studied and re-studied, it is data that is looked at as it goes to additional medical journals. And I'm bound in some way by that data. To hear that a wildlife study demonstrated that my little 18-pound dog, leashed with my little plastic gloves and hand is going to have more impact on a trail than a horse and the horse's manure and the flies that go with the manure. Then a trail bike Then a trail bike that is destroying parts of the trail as it goes through, then the concept of hunting, which is real good for our life, boggles my mind and makes me think that the inmates are running the asylum. I would say to you that the thought that having dogs up there leashed and whose excrement is taken by hand. Prevents wildlife from migrating appropriately, I wish you would tell that and take-cree crude, come up to my house into my gardens, where my dog excreats on a regular basis, and love to eat the flowers and the vegetation there. Somehow it doesn't seem to stop them. Nor does the fact that walking the dog on the trail or when the trail is closed, walking dogs on brush-cree-growned riches allowed somehow doesn't prevent that migration. So this gets to a level of absurdity that there is either bias or that this data is so far removed from reality that those of us in the community get very upset about. We get especially upset when we are told to vote on an issue like this to fund $2 million to this trial concept. And yet we are not told at that time that by the way we're not going to allow dogs on this trail. So what prevents us, and the voters of Snowmass, from saying, oh, well, now that you're telling us no dogs are allowed, we're going to fold an initiative, put it on the ballot, and vote that we know what we're going to continue to fund the remainder of the $2 million. So, and it seems to be a fate of complete, as I read in the papers, or as I hear from people, oh, you can't do anything about this, because the wildlife studies said this. There are absurdities here that need to be addressed and there is a feeling of betrayal when we were not told that we were voting for something that was going to exclude dogs. And again, if this does go through, I personally, and a number of people sitting in this audience are going to move to get something on the ballot to prevent the further funding of this. And that is not a threat. That's a promise. Thank you very much. Anybody else? Dave? Or Scott? Hi. For the record, I am Dave Spence and I'm a resident of the Crossings in Horse Ranch and I'd like to speak about I believe Rim Trail North is how I would describe it from Sinclair Road around to where it comes out at the crossings. In that area that's my backyard. I'd like to say first of all, I think the public comments at the different hearings really didn't call out for the different areas that might be impacted by this. And until I read Hunt's comments in the snowmass sun last week, I really didn't really put together that the rim trail is going to become part of Skyline Park and all of a sudden there's parts of this thing that I don't think the public understood. I could have brought six people from my office alone down here tonight to speak in favor of dogs on the rim trail north. So I don't put much credence in what the public comments were in this particular case. Having said that, I really would like to make a plea for cooperation between mountain bikers and hikers and hikers with dogs that we all cooperate with each other. I think we do now on that rim trail. I see very little conflict, but frankly, I'm much more intimidated by a mountain biker coming by me at high speed than I am. Somebody coming at me with a dog that I presume is friendly. I mean, I would assume that we had all demand that dogs be friendly. So I think it's, I guess my request is that somehow through however the code reads and the previous legislation that the status quo on rimtot trail north at least be allowed to remain where I understand it. Technically, there could be enforcement up there. There's never been enforcement up there. And as far as I know, there's never been a problem. Well, Dave, you weren't here earlier, but we talked about that a little bit on the rim trail. And that's a separate issue on dog you see. Then it is from the Sky Mountain Park. And that's part of the PUD approval that was for the horse ranch that prohibited dogs. And it has been in place since 1991. And it can be changed, but it has to be 100% approval of every homeowner in horse ranch. So that's kind of what we're facing with that situation up there. Is on that particular part of the rim trail, in order to allow dogs, you'd have to get 100% approval, which I think would be difficult. I apologize for not being able to get here. I did see that note in the paper and I don't know if there's any way the homeowner's association could, for horse ranch, could say we agree with waving this or if there's some way not to chase this very hard but it seems to me this is an opportunity for government to run them up or over enforce depending on what the government wants to do. Because we've been fine since 1990 I think. Do you think I was just gonna ask Gary Hunt to comment on enforcement as far as dog prohibitions or lease laws or whatever relative to the North Rim Trail versus some of the most interesting handles that, where? You don't have, the county doesn't have jurisdiction over that. No, they don't. Within the town of Stomach Village is what, whether you're talking about Hidden Valley or Upper North Mace, that's actually through animal control underneath the police department would enforce that. And basically I believe it's the Pick and County Rangers that do it within Pick and County portions of Sky Mountain Park. Is the answer to the question? Yes. Okay, thank you, Dave. Anyone else care to speak? Hello, I'm Scott Gordon, resident of Milton Ranch, and I'm also a member of the Snowmass Trails Committee, and also on the Roam Fork after the volunteer board and part of their Project Slection Committee. And I've been involved in part of this approval process. And it's been really insightful for me to be involved in a public process and one that involves different user groups and the different jurisdictions. And I think in general, everybody's done a great job in cooperating and getting a nice plan here tonight. I think the wisdom I get through the process is that compromise is OK. You may not get everything you want if you're a mountain bike, you may not have everything you want. If you are a dog owner, you may not get everything you want. But I think the compromise here is fine. The management plan, the RABAT studies incorporate all the parcels as we said earlier, it's Skarnut and Park, not just the town of Stomach Village parcels. When the benefits of the wildlife, elk migration study was to determine if the North Room could be opened earlier, and as we said earlier, it's been opened earlier. So that's a benefit to this whole study and analysis. We own two dogs personally, and my wife utilizes the trails in Stomach Village, and we would love nothing more than to have access to the North Room, since we can access that from our home in Milton Ranch. But I think we realize that if that was the case, that the actual trail access and the droste property and the broader Sky Mountain Management plan may have been reduced. So the trail office, the compromise is we get more trail access for all users by having this master plan in place. The other point I'd like to make is that what you're approving tonight is a management plan, not an enforcement plan. As we just said, and the ton of storm has to be the ones to enforce that. So, all there are some questions about that, questions about whether there could be a petition. What you're really approving tonight is just the management plan. So with that, I'd recommend that you approve the management plan. I'll present it tonight. Thank you, Scott. Anyone else? Mark. Oh, sorry, Bernie. Mark Cogan, resident of North and North and North of Brush Creek. And myself, I have a pet and avid user of the local trails here as well as for mountain biking so I'm kind of on both sides of the fence here with a dog and riding a bike at the same time um, I was in favor of the drossy property when it came to the table and the town approved it and I was under the assumption at that time that we were going to have a trail for hiking with dogs and more mountain biking and now being told that we're not having any dogs in the open space area there for the trails that are current and we're looking at adding a horse trail with the use of a hike trail together. I kind of think that's not a great idea when you're sharing the two together. Maybe I'm wrong on that and I need to review that a little bit more. The horse use trail over on the dross, the property, is it going to be based at the rodeo lot or is in and use of the high-line trail I did hear you mentioning that earlier and I'm just questioning and does that lead down the road to the use with outfitters? That's another good question because there is part of the plan is to have commercial outfitting use the trail in some manner. Would you like to? Yeah I can I can answer that as far as the horse trail that Mr. Hogan's talking about, we're talking about the question-hiking trail that would link up to the viewvine. Currently, last summer, both hikers, mountain bikers, and horses could get to the skyline ridge trail versus the viewline trail that we built last June. The plan is, at least from here to here, is to separate the horses over on this trail here. And yes, in order for this particular trail work to work, as Gary pointed out earlier, that we want to create this parking area, parking area big enough to have horse trailers. And so a horse that was going gonna try to get up to the skyline ridge trail with park here is Gary pointed out. If they parked here, it's not really comfortable for those guys. Not only to cross through the round of epitome, but to go up on the high line road. And in order to get to here, if we didn't have this parking area, they'd have to go along the high line trail to do it. So the way we look at it is we build the parking, the trail had parking first, and then that would allow the access to the horse and hike trails. That's on that side. But one thing I wanted to point out, and for those of us who've been here a long time, there are existing equestrian trails where long before the town even became a town back in the 60s and 70s that the operators used that actually were down in this area. And what you see on this map is, in purple, is the equestrian trails that have always been in so mass. And in back when we built the rim trail north, the goal was to keep the hikers and bikers separate from the equestrians. Last summer capital peak outfitters as well as this summer will be using this trail. Right now they're right now they're prohibited from going up here. We haven't really addressed that issue about whether outfitters be up here. They might be up there on a limited basis, but right now horseback riders, private horseback riders could park down here in the overflow lot as well as capital P can use this equestrian trail today. And back to kind of the cost issue, the hope in talking to capital P since they'll probably the main use of that particular trail, I want them to actually maintain and get it in a position where they can use it. This one over here is going to take a little bit longer. So Mark can answer your questions. Yes, we're trying to separate usage. I would ask that that would be kind of on the forefront and to separate the use of horses in chairing the trails and the drossity. Separate and equal. The other thing is it seems like you're limiting the use or discouraging walking with your dog in the drossity area but at the same time you're introducing hunting with the wildlife. And to me that seems kind of off balance there if you're taking away from public comment that we want to walk our dogs on this property. And then you're also introducing something that we've never had as far as I can remember in this area, is hunting, and is specifically in an area like that. That's been private property forever. It's been elk migration forever. And now we're going to bring in muzzle loading season, archery rifle season. And we're going to get the,zzle loading season, archery rifle season. We're going to get the, you know, it's a lottery this year and 10 years from now, it's a bigger lottery. And then pretty soon our elk migration is depleted and how can we only see a couple hundred head versus where we're seeing three or four hundred head? Well, I think they allowed hunting up there in the past. The josties did allow private. Private. Private. Yeah, but point taken. Point taken, thank you. The other thing on the North Rim Trail, if possible, maybe the talent council can meet with the HOA of the horse ranch and give them our public input to the HOA and saying that we've been using this trail. And yes, there's a gray area with the government usage and the enforcement and if we could get approval and Kind of put that to breast No, I think the issue there is 100% all you need is just one owner and the crossings or horse ranch to say no and that's it So we don't know that until we go to the table right John can you just clarify is that your interpretation of that that we need individual approval from homeowners or can we talk to the HOA and see if they can do something to coordinate? The PUD that was approved in 1991 made a finding that respected what the Department of Wildlife presented to the town council when they were considering developing the horse ranch subdivision. And in that PD, one of the conditions is that there is no dogs allowed on the pedestrian trails in parcel one, which is the North Rim Mesa, which were the present day North Rim Trail runs through. To change a PUD when the Covenants run in favor of both the residents in the town, there has to be a predicate showing of change circumstances. So if you wanted to change the prohibition on the dogs, on the pedestrian trails on the North Rim, Mesa, there'd have to be, the zoning is there for the benefit of the town, and it also runs for the benefit of the residents. So the town can't unilaterally say, well, we're going to allow a skyscraper in the middle of horse ranch. And the residents can't unilaterally say, well, we're going to have a mobile home park in the Meadows. So it's protection for both sides. And to open up the zoning change, the predicate is a change of conditions. So the original conditions when the video was approved was there was a concern about dogs and the mixing of dogs and wildlife on parcel one which is that North Rim Mesa and that resulted in the prohibition of dogs on the pedestrian trails in that area. So to change that, either the town or the homeowners would have or any member of the public in the town would have to present that there are change circumstances there now to begin to show those change circumstances to then hear the merits of whether or not there should be a change in that condition of the PUD. I think quite- But the question is, what kind of vote does it take to, let's assume you could need the predicate, what kind of vote does it take to amend the PUD to remove that restriction? Is it, as I was told, 100% of all property owners of the PUD. Any property owner could challenge that. I don't, there's no provision for a vote. I mean, it's not like you go and have all the horse ranch homeowner's vote in the town council votes. That's not all works. So there's a council decision? Is that? Yeah, and to amend the PUD is the council's decision. And we would, we could potentially rely on a new wildlife study that indicates some degree of change given that we just changed the closure dates on that trail. You could commission another study and you would have the study that was done in 1991. You'd have the study that was done this past year in 2011, and then you could have another study to whoever wanted to ask to prove the change circumstances could come forth. Well, I'll ask you that. Just a second. We had a study in when the horse ranch PUD was put in place, correct? Now we've had a study in 2011. Now, why can't we sit down and look at those two studies and say, what's different in 2011 than there was in 2000, then 2000, I'm sorry, 1990? I don't have a problem with it. He asked me if we could do potentially a new study of conditions. No, I'm saying could we make a determination that there is a predicate of change based on the 2011 study that we have that we just basically made a decision that there was some change, at least enough to affect closure dates? Yes. So it doesn't, then I am incorrect. It doesn't require the approval of every property owner in horse range. Right? No, it doesn't. Okay. I was under that impression as well. I think, John, finished a sentence. I don't know that. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that I, that I apologize for my earlier statement because that's what I was led to believe. And if, in fact, it is something that can be done through a study comparison of the two studies and see if there's been any deterioration in the property between 1992 and 2011, I think it is incumbent on this council to do it. And I think there's certainly enough sentiment among people who live in horse ramps, certainly, to say, well, we'd be happy to have you do that. Make that analysis and amend the PUD. I think the challenge is we just did a study and it's, it had very similar conclusions on this issue. Then the study says it could be damaged. It doesn't say it's been damaged. Well, you know, this is a separate issue. I think we need to take this out. As a separate issue. I agree. Because we're right today just discussing this guy mountain park. I agree. But I, you know, I made a statement earlier that was absolutely correct. Well, I was under misunderstanding too. Well, and this question lends to this guy, Mountain Park, decision as well, because I mean, my question would be, and if you could comment on it, the reason for a rowing seasonal prohibition on dogs on the brush creek trail and why that approach wouldn't be effective or desirable on the higher trails. I mean, I'm assuming you're not anticipating that this large wildlife is going to be on those trails during the October 15 to May 15 timeframe. So is there a scenario where seasonal closure or prohibition on dogs makes sense there? Or is that considered and determined not desirable? Yeah, the brush creek trail is different because it's right next to the road. So it's a lot different habitat. You got the road right there and so it was really the brush creek trail is really affecting only alcatat where the trails in the interior of the property are affecting the whole host of other habitats. You have Virginia Warbler habitat, your brewers fire habitat, get more than just L-cabitat because the L-cab, the L-cab are out of there in during the summer months. And so it's not really affecting it. One of the things that we are going to do is a Mule deer study because Mule deer have not been studied in this area at all, and they are there most of the summer. And so what impact do we have on them? So there's still a lot of answers that aren't totally, you know, just magically answered in one study. It takes a little time to do it, but that's the difference why we couldn't do the seasonal closures because it's affecting a lot different habitat. Got it. Thank you. Any other public comment? Marty. In Annette Mosman, I've been a resident of Melton Ranch for 35 years and walked up on the North Rim probably 30 times a summer for since it opened and I have never seen dogs running amok and so I would support any sort of study or discussion about reopening the rim trail. Secondly, I have a question about why we can't walk up view line to the top of the drostee border and then walk back down. I think it penalizes us the Drostee border and then walk back down. I think it penalizes us when open space says open space expects us to go on the Drostee trail rather than turning back. And I'd also like to make the comment that I think the town is trending toward an anti-dog attitude. And it's a very upsetting. And Mayor Boyno supports the idea of starting a dog association. So our rights as dog owners aren't trampled upon. Thank you. Hi, I'm Judy Altman. I live on Brush Creek Road. I want to know how you do a study and it says dogs would be bad. Don't you have to do it without dogs and then with dogs to compare them on the drosky property or if you're giving mountain bikes rights up there and horses, can you give one of the trails to dogs that they just stay on and maybe it would be inside all the others so that it wouldn't have that impact? I mean nobody told us that, you know, no dogs would be allowed. That was never said and I feel duped and I don't really like that so much, to be honest with you. Would you like to answer just the first part of her question on the studying it with and without dogs? Well, you never, this property gave us an opportunity to study it without dogs, which is usually the best time to do it, because once you have dogs on the property, you have impacts. I am a dog owner of myself, and so I do have a dog. You know, if the reality on number one enforcement issue throughout Pick and County is dogs off leash, number one by far on the way. And you know, this would be a lot different conversation if we could guarantee everyone would put their dog on a leash. We have not gotten that even close in Pick and County. And that's where the major issue happens is dogs off leash have a huge impact. We have dog bite issues. We have a lot of issues that we deal with on a daily basis at a weekly basis that is very difficult and you know that is one of the reasons why we can't even look at pretending to put a dog trail in there because we just know that most people, you know, there's very good dog owners and there's also people who just kind of don't put the dogs on a leash and it's right now on the rest of our trails, our rangers are out there all the time and we have significant issues with dogs off leash, chasing wildlife, you know, lighting people, we do have it, it happens, a lot with dogs off leash, chasing wildlife. You know, lighting people, we do have it. It happens. A lot of dogs are good, but if you have just 10 to 20% of bad ones, it makes a huge impact to these areas. And so, you know, right now on this, we looked at keeping dogs on the perimeter. And the perimeter is, you know, right, keeping the brush creek trail open to dogs, and keeping the high line and low creek trail open to dogs and keeping the high line and low line trail open to dogs and you know the real grand and the Aspenmash trail and the Alcree trail they're all open to dogs and we're not recommending any closures on any of the other trails that you have in this area you know all of these government and all of these, you know, even the South Wind Trail, we haven't, and neither is the town staff has even come close to going. We have a big issue is basically trying to protect this one area that hasn't really been touched. It's been fought over for many, many years for wildlife habitat. That's why this area was the one that was picked as kind of keeping it intact for habitat. Okay, one more quick comment, Mr. Altman. I have to do it from here. Oh, you have to, you have to go, come to the microphone. Go ahead. I'm going to see gross and I'm not a dog owner. And I think my only comment would be that when this jurisdiction property was brought to the community to vote on for our financial support, none of this was ever mentioned. And as I say, I'm not a dog owner, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I do think I can understand why people feel that they were dooped or not giving the full facts before they voted. I think this is unfortunate. Thank you. I appreciate the chance to just make more comment. Did I just hear being said that if the dogs were on leash, this would be an entirely different conversation? If that is really the case, why aren't we having that entirely different conversation and simply having the same people who regulated on the real ground trail and the other trails be there because we use our tax money to pay for that. If I truly just heard this would be a totally different conversation than it darn well should be. Well we can certainly take these comments and add it to our comments to the plan as comments back to the Picking County Open Space after sure we get through going through our board comments. So I'd like to wrap this up, Fred. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be terrifically short. First of all, I do find it unusual that for some reason dogs misbehave more on open space than they do anyplace else. I am a dog owner and we walk our dogs every day and nobody gets bitten, nobody that I know gets bitten. No dogs are chasing anybody. So it must be something unusual about open space that they do it. Secondly, this study has elevated this piece of property to a level that is beyond any other piece of property in Pitkin County, certainly any public piece of property. I find that rather unusual. I mean, the Forest Service owns an awful lot of public land here. And somehow this piece of property is got to be so much more sacrificing than anything the Forest Service owns that you have to have these restrictions and have it this way. Now in my mispent youth, I used to deal with appraisers and the certification for appraisers was MAI and that meant something technical but the cognizant at the time said, NAI stands for made as instructed. Now, I'm not suggesting that you instructed the study to come up with the conclusions that they've come up with. But my guess is if you hired them to inspect another piece of land, they would probably come up with the same conclusions. I find that a bit disingenuous. Finally, as you have heard, people feel misled. I, as a voter, had no idea that this property was going to be as restricted as you are now trying to make it. Had I known it, and I supported the acquisition of it, had I known it, I wouldn't have supported it, because I thought I would think this was built as open to everybody, walkers, hikers, bikers, and walkers with dogs. I had no idea that that wasn't going to be part of it. At least from what you've heard in this room, and from what I've heard from other people as well, don't be surprised if there is indeed a referendum circulated and the withdrawal of this town's pledge is out of the November ballot. Jason. Well, initially I didn't really have much in the way of concerns around pre-heavating dogs on the property. It's seen a small sacrifice in the way of preserving habitat and for all the reasons you talk about. And, you know, hearing the comments in the room, obviously a lot of concern out there about that and that feeling of being misled. And I don't love the idea of supporting that. And frankly, for me, the issue of hunting is really the bigger concern and much like the comments you heard. Had I known back then at the time that this was going to provide new hunting grounds, whether it just be for four days or what, my vote would have been in question as well, I think. And so, frankly, the idea of allowing hunting, you know, the idea of allowing licenses to take two to five elk seems nominal and minimal, and I question why that's really necessary given that hunting is allowed up on the mountain at various times. So I won't be voting in support. You might not get a motion to carry forward support from this council today. All right. Yeah, I was going to say, and that's, you know, if we don't get the support today, I mean, that's basically, if you vote yes, then we'll actually begin to do some of these trails. But if you vote no, we won't do anything and that's fine. Yeah. There's a practical better hunt. Isn't this a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing because it's ultimately the county that has the final say? I mean, we don't have jurisdiction over this land. I mean, I hope you listen to us. But if the county wants to do it, it's going to do it. Each owner of the property has final jurisdiction, in the case of the Council, or the town of Final Jurisdiction over Upper North Mesa, as well as in Valley, Picking County pretty much as Final Jurisdiction of all the drowsy, and that's the time for me. That's the second in my point. Right, right. So the question of building trails is not what we're talking about. We're pointing out to a, I know, but if you don't support, if you don't support, if you don't support that we don't support. If he don't, it's a defunding and dabs. And so, as an example, if he don't support the trail, that doesn't make any sense for us to build the rim line trail, which is gonna go nowhere. If he don't support the trail. Yeah, in other words, on the rim line trail, does that on there? The rim line trail goes here, the town's property line is here and you could say go ahead and build the trail of there, but the county are going to build this portion. So we wouldn't build this board. Similarly, we wouldn't build this one either, build this trail either because the council doesn't support the plan that we wouldn't. I don't think you're hearing any opposition to your trail plan. I think you're hearing opposition to your management plan. Well, 50's a thousand. Exactly. Well, from my point of view, they go hand in hand. Okay, hold on. Russ, I guess this has been a partnership to date in the county and the town did the wildlife study. And I think we're now talking about two specific issues in a much broader plan. I think I'm hearing support for the actual trail system and structure. We don't have a full council today and I think again, this input going back to the county and them deliberating on it would be useful. It may require some further dialogue between boards. But I think we're potentially down to two issues. And again, I just, through this process, there's been lots of give and take and compromise. I've seen it with the horse community, with the utilization of trails. So I appreciate the give and take and the compromises that have been made today. So I think, you know, this is input that could be taken back considered and it may be it requires some further dialogue. But to Jason's point, and he's absolutely right, we're not disapproving the trail system or anything you want to do to the property. What we're, what I am against is the management plan. And specifically, it's like, specifically the dog. One management issue related to dogs at least. And two and then there's an issue of hunting. So but that's what we're opposed to. We're not opposed to constructing trails or anything else. So nothing we're saying here inhibits that. Is there any other elements of the management plan that are a concern to this council? So Gary when he goes back and talks with others in the county, he can be clear about the concerns. So Fred, to your point, though, this is a county plan. And they've come to us asking for our purview in a review in our public comment, which I believe that we've gotten to date. We've heard from the dog owners and the people that are in favor of dogs on these properties, but we haven't heard from the people that are in favor of not having them on this property. And when we saw from the comments that are in the plan, there were more comments in that regard that are not here, that are not being addressed. We can send this back to the county with our comments, have them addressed and represent this, but I just assume get this plan, at least from our side, we're not approving the way they're going to manage it. We're approving what they presented to us in saying that. And I don't approve that. That's my point. That's precisely my point. Are you suggesting John and proving it, but with conditions? Conditions? Yeah. Or suggestions for change? Well You're suggesting John and proving it, but with conditions? Conditions? Yeah. Or suggestions for change? Well, if you want, I will approve the plan, but for the dog issue, and I assume Jason will do it, but for the hunting issue. Now if that makes you happy, so be it. The other option is, again, you could continue this, or we could simply reschedule it with the full council. I mean, that's kind of, you're having a good honest debate. Some of this debate has occurred in the public meetings and It would be entirely appropriate. A the county could take this input considerate see if there's any other ideas to address compromises in this and then have the full council. And I would reiterate and I would take the comments that you've several of the comments that you've heard from people about being misled, I would take that very seriously. That has nothing to do with the management plan. That has to do with how this issue has been handled from the beginning. And the consequences to you are that there could be a valid initiative to withhold, withdraw our pledge. And, and otherwise there aren't really consequences in terms of taking this forward. It sounds like so. At this point, I mean, you don't have support from a majority at this table. And you have lots of comments from. The room that you can take back. It as you go forward, I guess. Well, one of the things I can do is the Pick and County Open Space Board and the City Open Space Board reviewed this and they have approved this management plan in its form, but that would really be only for the Pick and County portion and the City of Aswin portion. And so, you know, I can inform them of this board's desires of redoing it. But the reality is, is what you guys do on your own properties is really your jurisdiction. And so, you know, I don't think they're going to cheer. We got an unanimous vote on it. We talked about the dog issue. There are other people we have done public comment for a really long time. This is not the only public comment we've heard. And I'm sorry that people feel this led. We didn't really ever try to do that through this whole process. And so, the whole thing with the dog thing is, I think you might be at this impasse where the county is, you know, you're going to stick with layers and what the town does on their properties is maybe we can come to some type of compromise on that where you guys can figure out where you can access and what we do on our property doesn't involve you at all. I'm saying. So, so do you resolve obviously our comments are directed strictly to the drossity property. Our property is a different issue and we may have to go through an amendment of the PUD to remove that restriction. But that's either here or there. That's nothing you have to consider. Well, the only other issue is that it's not only drossity. If you look at these boundaries, the VUI actually hits seven star. I'm older, a pick and count county property purchased with just picking county dollars, and it throws in the two connection, that's the connecting to Drozdy. How these trails connect is how we try to enter it. So because the trail doesn't always just go on picking county property or town of Stomas Village property, it kind of connects. So how do we compromise on that, the connection part of it? That's what I was trying to talk about. You're really got a sign up there that says you can't go beyond this point with the dog. Right. And on our property, we could take the dog and your property we can't. Right. Okay, so I mean, you've dealt with that issue. But what I'm saying is that the rim trail issue is something totally separate. I'm not talking about, I'm talking more on this stuff. Our property, we've got your restriction. On your property, you've got your restriction. Correct. Okay. Again, hearing this, my suggestion is I think the county can take this back, digested in any way. I think, again, this has been a partnership to this point. And I think probably some more further dialogue between our floor board and potentially, you know, contacts and the Picking County Open Space, or the County Commissioners, might be helpful. And soliciting some additional feedback and input and having the full council kind of express their thoughts at the end of the day. For me, I would have much rather seen a monitoring approach to this refuge effect rather than a preemptive approval of a hunting season. That seems to be jumping in the gun a bit. And I think there's more humane approaches to management that might have been explored. Well, since this isn't an action required by Council, we could either continue this and have these comments taken back to your board or to your staff and address them and then represent it to our Council at a question. John, I want to ask you a question. If this was two to one the other way of proving the plan, would you take a vote? Well, you can take a vote if you do. I think you will. You will take the money that most of you know. Yeah. Well. You're. I mean, your options, you can take an action, a motion on this to approve, disapprove, or take no action. You could also continue. Well, but my guess is if this was going to be approved, we take a vote. You probably will. Okay. So if it's not going to be approved, I think we're entitled to a vote too. And I will, I will, I will condition the vote on the state we approve the plan but for the two issues that we've discussed. And I think that's a fair statement of where we are. At least two of us are. We'd like to make a motion to that if so move. Okay. Do I have a second? Second. Any further discussion? So I just want to repeat what we're doing here. We're moving to approve the plan subject to further. It's not a motion to approve the plan. It's general. Except it's of the plan but for the restrictions on dogs and the allowance for hunting. So it's it's not adopting approval. It's not. And it's not in person. Okay, the schema thinks you came to us and asked for it. As for this, you didn't need to. I mean, the schema thinks you did need us to vote on this at all, but you guess for it, now you got it. Specifically, the motion is to accept the plan except for those two management recommendations. Is that... I don't know. It's a statement of where this council is today. John, do you have a suggestion of an action that would be appropriate to reflect the position today Our council advice I don't make recommendations you guys do what you need to do I think Russ has given you the best recommendation That's a personal opinion not a professional opinion. Okay, well, all in favor of the motion? Aye. Opposed? I'd prefer to see the plan approved as presented. Well, understand it may be a completely different plan. In other words, counties under no obligation to have any of the connections to any of the snowmast village trails. That's true. So, if you want, I mean, if you've taken this action and it could very well be that the county decides that access to the Sky Mountain Park won't go through snowmast village. That's true. I mean, you've made it very clear that you control the trails on the town of snowmast village property. That message says to me if I'm the county. Snowmast, you may have very clear, you can show it on this sideline, which makes it very clear to us that we can show it on this sideline. And they've been here with several iterations. Now this is the final one. And you're saying, nope, on our property, it's this way, which gives them the opportunity to say on our property it's this way and it could very well be. I'm not saying this is what they're going to do. I'm just telling their options are wide open to them as well. Well, but they've already said that to us, John. They said on our property there will be no dogs. And we said on our property there will be dogs. Right. So, well, there is. I mean, on our property, except for the rim trail, there are dogs. Correct. So, they've already said that to us. I mean, it's not that they're worth throwing down a gauntlet to them that they haven't thrown down to us. The point is missing my point. They've said that, but they're also showing all these trials connecting. And their plan could change. So the trial goes to the snowmass-village time limits. And then there's no more trial. I suspect if they do that, John, then the chances of the referendum passing get much higher. I'm just telling you that off here, I'm not trying to make a decision for you. I just didn't hear this considered whatsoever in the discussion that's gone forth. And then you ask. Again, I just make this, you've made a motion, you've approved it. And I'd make the further recommendation. I think the county will need to deliberate, consider this. And I think it's a further discussion between the two bodies probably would be suggested in the near future. But give them the opportunity to kind of digest this thing about this. Okay, very good, thank you, gentlemen. Thanks. I'd like to take a 45 minute break. 45 minute break, 45 minute break? I heard. How about it? We've got a board waiting. Item number five, quarterly report on snow mass tours and business plan. I see we have the group sales marketing special events board here. Welcome, gentlemen. Appreciate your time. All end Susan. End Susan. Yes. I'll take it away, Susan. Robert? Well, I'll start off here briefly. My name is Robert Sinko. I am the current chairman of the marketing special events and group sales board. I take this opportunity to introduce the rest of the board. We have this year, in February, we, the board grew by two members. And I have to say that I think the additional two members are both at large members, and they both have been positive, influence, influencing and giving this board a lot of very helpful information. Are you sure? Yes, I am. I'm not under oath, but I'm not lying. Am I? Yes, I am. You're right. Anyway, we have at large, we have John Borthwick. Raise your hands when we know who you are. Howard Gross and Peter Moore. The format changed as most of you know. David Perry is sits on this board as the ski company representative. Johnny Henshell represents the retail. representative? Johnny Henshell represents the retail. Bob Purvis is the Food and Beverage representative. Take that wherever you want to take it. He's not here today. He's traveling. So we're missing Bob. A lodging representative's Hugh Teppelin from the vice-chair. Steve Santomo from destination resorts and Stonebridge and myself from the C-chair Steve Santomo from destination resorts and Stonebridge and myself from the crestwood. So with that said, I guess we'll turn it over to Susan for her presentation. Good evening. You have the quarterly report in front of you and this presentation is not going to change much from that. It's really just showing you the business report in PowerPoint format, some visuals, and I'm happy to take questions and ideas. As you have seen, the four primary quantitative goals every year, growing occupancy, increasing sales tax revenue, improving group sales performance, and ensuring that events achieve ROI, and the metric targets. Three percent year over year, 2011-12 winters the only time frame that we can talk about right now since we haven't gotten to summer or full year yet and that landed up eight percent year over year, which is pretty good in a very tough time for resorts around the country with no snow. Susan, do you have any statistics comparing our that percentage with other resorts? Right, and those are the two badminton bullets. The competitive report as we get it today is misleading because of the way that it's reported. You don't know who the next different resorts are. So I've asked for a custom report so that we can show you that very information that we promise you in the last two bullets. Improving group sales, Fred, for your first quarter, he embered 65 qualified leads per quarter to the lodges and the team achieved 61. Any other comments on that? Could you define a qualified lead for this? Yeah, could you explain to us what a qualified, a Fredy, if you could identify yourself? Fred Bhatsky, a group sales director for Tell us no mass. Our qualified lead is it's 10 bedrooms or more per night for any given amount of nights. Obviously there's a little bit of, it's not necessarily scientific. Obviously some leads may be bigger than that, but they just play may not be a fit and snowmass. So there's a little bit of discretion taken to qualify a lead in that it would fit here in town. It makes sense. It would have some chance of landing here. Is 100 bed lead, one qualified lead? Yes. And same as a 10 bed. Yes. They come in all shapes and sizes and with a range of financial capabilities as well. Do you have any sense of how many of those qualified leads or is 61 the number that actually turned into reservations? No, that's the qualified leads that were presented to the community. We are trying to garner how many of those qualified leads go to contract. Unfortunately, and we've kind of had this discussion here. One of the things that our job is to do and one of the main things it's a is essentially set the table We don't contract the business it's up to the lodges to close the business We do try and get information on what business was closed And what business was not we don't always get an accurate reading on that Is there any way to track that? John can I step back just a little bit here. One of the things that also happened with our board over the course of the last three or four months is that we created three committees intended to take a closer look at the three key areas of subcategories, so to speak, of this marketing board. And the three committees are events, which Howard is chair of that committee, group sales, which he is in charge of that committee. And the third one is overall marketing and Steve Santomo. So just that's a little background information that's important because he and his committee are the ones that actually look at the leads and they will say, Fed, you're headed in the wrong direction or Fed, your people are, these ladies are not qualified and this is coming from the hotel people who are really in tune to looking at group sales and groups that come to Snowmass Village. And that's how you're basically your compensation too, right? I mean, as I remember the way this was set up, because there was no accurate way to measure how effective you've been, you came up with this concept of qualified leads that was to be approved by an independent committee. It was part of it. And which I think is terrific. I mean, I really commend you for that. And I assume Fred that you're you're compensating people on the basis of producing qualified leads. But whether there's there's really two over arching goals. One is is is qualified leads. And and the second piece of it is it is what we refer to as the macro goal, which is does the groups and meetings business year over year increase in snowmass, whether we've had our hands all over the business, or whether we've just had a small something to do with the business, or whether we've had nothing to do with the business as far as we know. Unfortunately, we weren't able to collect all of the data to set a baseline in years past. So what we're doing this year is we're using 2012 to set a baseline for that macro goal. And what we're going to do is qualify. How much business is being put on the books now for the future as a village? Because really at the end of the day, that's what we're all about. It's not what's operating now. It's about what we're doing for the future. So 2012 is going to serve as the baseline for that because we just don't have that data from years past. We weren't able to collect it. We tried and just didn't get an accurate reading. Okay, thanks. Part of the reason for that is the silver tree sale. So a lot of that data, none necessarily lost, but not accessible. Individually, winter is key for us, as you know, with recorders of our business. We don't sell anything, we don't sell lodging or lift tickets, so we use the promotions and leverage what ski co-puts together, as well as direct to lodges. The promotions this year, kids ski and stay free, which has been very successful for us every year by four get more, meaning nights and skiing, perfect storm, and the kids ski and fly free that we did towards the end of the season to really try to help march out because March was suffering. We benefited from the early opening. We benefited from our international guests, primarily who booked early on. We benefited even from our domestic guest who booked early on. So those were all done. It was the second part, March in particular, where people were looking at the snow and either over it or just waiting to be last minute and didn't book some March hurt. We saw it hurt extra much because last year we were the top performer in March so that drastic difference that others around the country felt is more visible. I think it's fair to say the reason that we promote winter not only does it generate the most revenue but the SAS report shows that of all the packages, the SAS been snowmess booked 87% of kids ski and stay free were booked in snowmess. That's pretty big percentage that was here. And that's due to the extra promotion. These are just a sample of some of the ads that appeared in national publications outside, travel and leisure, ski, powder, buried by family, and by aggressive athlete. And then we got a bonus. American Airlines threw another opportunity our way. This is the Aspen skiing company's ad, which they agreed to put the snowmess version in there. We also had billboards in Denver because, especially given the snow, we needed the lowest hanging fruit to be able to come up here for the weekends. We used it in the beginning of the season when we knew we were opening early. These are digital boards and within two hours we could put the new message up there. And we could use it throughout the season as well to keep snowmastop of mine. First look, all right. Oh. Eric, does it have snowmast? I'm just going to play for you. Short video, we did three vignettes. Susan I got a question for you on billboards in the Denver media work that you're doing. Do you track the visitation from different areas to here? Is that can you see how effective your billboards are in attracting Colorado visitors to snow mass? Sure. We don't know if it was the billboard, the print ed, the Denver Post Snow Report, the E-BLAST, the online campaign, it's probably a combination of all of them, and we do have reports to show where people originated. Because I think at one time Colorado was seventh in the list of visitors that come to Snowmass. It's higher than that. I think it's three, David. Denver, I think it's three, three place. And where's third place in the investigation? Colorado. Okay, it used to be number seven. I just remember that from years past. It's up. And part of that is talking to these people because they have choices. And you have the weekend warriors where they can Just drive to Vale but why not drive a little further and have a better product at least an eye-pandid There's you Ten years ago I came to Snowmass, and I got a part-time job with the sea's for teaching kids. It was super fun, just having a whole new entire world and I couldn't be happier. The kids take the year off school five days a week, so they just want to have fun and I told you a lot of things the treehouse is the best school facility I've seen around the world they have rooms for every age but one of the best children they have is a common room usually more thereafter than their skiing a once a discovery is a nice one. We should go there after we down there in Skimey once we discover this amazing place with that game on common which is one standard trails for us. I really love and enjoy being outside the mountains and the outdoor sports. So for me this place is a little bit of a paradise and when I'm teaching I can find a little bit of a paradise. And when I'm teaching, I can find a little scene of Russian mother for the mountains. Giving those kids a free throw that love in that fashion. And then you can come back here, I'll be here. So we've done three vignettes like that. And it's obviously the character of Snowmass are part of the reason that people come here and they love it. And you can see it's more about then just about the skiing. It's the whole experience with the instructor who's having a good time being a big kid as well. How many hits have you had on that video? I knew you were going to ask me that and I forgot to write it down, I apologize. Has it gone viral? It's gotten around. It's on Facebook. It's, I believe, accessible through our website. It's gotten a good traction. And it's only been done for a short time. We have two other vignettes that we're doing too. So group sales activities, Fred. Can you talk to this light, please? As it relates to the business plan? Well, I have a real simple mentality when it comes to some extent, when it comes to the activities that are going to gain a distraction in a competitive marketplace. And it's get them here, get them here, get them here. And when we're not really in prime season, it's go out and see them. We're just actually coming back from a two-day client event for our here and when we're not really in prime season it's go out and see them. We're just actually coming back from a two day client event for our color our best clientele and we have four fans planned for this summer starting with a company called Conference Direct. The third party site selection company perhaps a second or third largest in the world edition additionally, Aclia, which is the Association for Continuing Legal Education administrators. Their national meeting is in Denver this summer and we have the official post fan. So we're going to be bringing a lot of key decision makers for continuing legal education business. We're also looking at, we're very excited actually that site, the site classic is actually coming to the St. Regis in the last bit in late August. That's the Society of Incentive Travel Executives. We're going to have about 80 of the best and biggest incentive travel buyers in our valley, which has never really happened before to my knowledge. In addition to hosting the auction in the Gala at the Bice Roy and the golf tournament at the Stoomass Club were looking at bringing some of them in early for a pre-fam strictly here in the village. And additionally it looks like we're going to try and run a labor day fam as well, where we will run a labor day fam as well with a lot of key decision makers. We're out on the road quite a bit. We're really getting in front of people. And I think the results in the lead production is kind of showing. Thank you. Budget breakdown. As you can see, we are a 25% of the year lapsed I'm going to show them. Thank you. Budget breakdown. As you can see, we are a 25% of the year lapsed and I broke these into the primary buckets which show that we're depending on the original budget that you approved. And then since then we've had some opportunities which you have not approved yet. But should you do that during the official process, then that would be the second column. And that would put us at either 24% or 23% of budget at 25 year laps. So we're in good shape on the marketing budget. You're talking about revising, presenting us or the revised budget. When we do the revised budgets, which starts in July, I believe, and then it's formally presented in October and approved by you. You're also going to get a budget update on June 4th. That'll give you a snapshot of potential movement on a revenue standpoint and on a cost end point and all of our funds including marketing. So are you asking us to do something for this year? Okay. You're not being requested anything. Not at this time, but yet, yes, for this year. And this was based on the FAB's recommendation. Holdouts and dollars for summer. Come up with some more plans that you think could be effective, present it, and we can approve that. So it's been pre-approved by the board, but not by council yet. You'll see that in Mary Ann's report. Group sales, same thing, we're at 18% of budget, through 25% of the year laps. So we're also in great shape there. percent of the year laps, so we're also in great shape there. The work plan, this goes through again the business plan item by item. We worked on the new summer brand and came up with a new positioning statement. I don't know that I need to read it to you, but if you take one second to read it through, this is what after research in both nationally through an online survey. I think it was about 10,000 people were surveyed and I can't remember what response we got, but it was statistically viable. It was also regionally in Denver. We did focus groups with two groups of individuals, and that was more quantitative, and it was also here in this valley to get their perspective. So a lot of different opinions were considered in landing this by about the 10th version, I think. From that, this is, I know, ad concept. The one place with many ways to move you. And basically what it does is it takes two different kinds of notions of ways to move you, either on your mountain bike or at a concert and it just opposes them into one visual. So we thought this was a pretty creative way. It stands out. Everybody else has just like and went to their ski porn, their summer porn and this really is something that makes you stop and read it. And what it does is play up on what we have here in snowmass, what we have with our partners in Aspen and which can get in the valley. So you'll see some, that's actually the belly up in the picture. Without us telling people go to Aspen, you get the understanding that you can do both. And we mentioned Aspen in the copy as well, saying that the combination of these two neighbors is powerful. Let me just add that the first go around the marketing board wasn't real happy with what they saw from our ad agency. And I'm not sure that staff was either, but when I mentioned earlier that the boards were working well together, this is something that the board unanimously approved and very much kind of forced the hand of the staff and the marketing agency to go out and let's rethink this and do this over because we're not sure we like what we have. And when it brought this back, it was very well received. That's cool. There's another concept almost finalized for family, but the board hasn't seen it yet, so I didn't want to preempt that. And then we continue to our strategy that we've done for the last two years of having a full pay ad and a publication and then you have a story in the middle and then a right hand third. So it really gives us enough real estate to keep the clean ad here and then give the detailed information about events on the right hand side and almost feels like you have two full pages for less. The mix out of, let's see, radio print online. Most of what we do is online. It's the most cost effective. It's the way people communicate these days. But you still have to have some print, because not everybody is online. And the messaging, we increased this brand. I believe last year we wrote about 35% of the ads were focused on branding and the rest on event. We elevated the brand and that's this extra dollars in the budget to do more. So 41% is a pretty good number. We can make a dent with that nationally while you still need to promote events. If you have an event and you don't tell people, they don't know about it, they don't come. What does the 26 million impressions mean? Eyeballs. So let's say a publication, well, two sets equal one. There are certain formulas that different publications use, so you take how many people, circulation or subscription, and then how many times they think that it will be seen, because I may order a certain magazine, but it's on the copy table and my husband might see it. And each one has a different formula. Could you just comment? I was surprised. It says here 49% of the spend was in print, but only 15% of the impressions. Yeah, because it's so expensive. And that's why each year we do less and less print, but again, we're not ready to pull out yet. And guess tell us that there's still people that want to see that printed and people who use ski magazine as one That's really really targeted people can't wait for that thing to come in their mailbox So you still have to be in some of these things But we are doing less and less and doing more and more online and that oh oh Billboards and such okay outdoor Yeah out of house Okay, right air. Yeah, out of house. It's really. Okay. And then just a quick, for online, we do online ads that have like five different transitions. So it starts here, so you get the mountain biking. It moves to first, that kid couldn't be happier. And your parents couldn't be happier to see your kids smiling like that. To, um, rewinding. Again, many ways to move you and then worth panel and fifth panel tells you here's where you clicked the book. There's more like that, that's just an example. Family Summer Adventures is the next piece and had a really good meeting with John Borthwick who helped me get comfortable with the notion that going from where we are today, with do it yourself and picking out your activities that you want to book. All the way to the family camp is nervous we're going to fail and John helped me get my arms around. Get comfortable with this. Let's get to the near term, which is an activity guide and online of everything that there is organized by, I'll show you her. Yes. I'll say so that's what gravity about this is that, suddenly in one page or two or three pages, there are all the things that, if you come here for a week, you could be doing. Exactly. I think that's a, that's, grab my touch right away, and I think it's terrific. Good, thank you. He's just in the middle of the game. And more touch of justice? I believe it or not. Oh, John's been great to work with and he got me comfortable that we can do this. We just have to not jump to the end. We've got to do it the right way. And then the camp should have all of that. You should see some patterns and what goes together and then we'll be smarter in the way that we book. And this is just such a tiny little representation of how it might be presented. We do it by day, by week, and by specific events. Categories could be adults, younger kids, older kids and family. We used to have a joint ESPN SNOMAS community calendar and a technology got old and people were keeping keeping it up so we're relaunching that and it should have the ability to tag the different options that you're looking for and bring up everything that applies. American Airlines is next on the list now I want to point something out you'll see the little red lines nomass that's because this deck that I got from American Airlines was the first rendition that they came back to us with advertising concepts. They immediately in the first meeting got so hard, love and clear that no, it's a aspirin snowmass. So they went back and they changed every add to go, I think only one add out of everything they did, which was over half a million dollars went out with just the aspirin. They fixed everything because they didn't have that add. I just want to make sure that you see everything says Aspen's no-mass, same size too. Bigger font for the snowmast. Yeah, that was just me putting that in there to be able to make the point. Same font. The Everties Print Radio Online Interactive, they were at the Skiedazzle Show, which was very targeted. LA billboards fired too many things for me to show here, including Fort Worth Stur, Austin Monthly, etc., etc. So they went above and beyond the commitment to us to really launch winter. Also, this was in Mexico and in Brazil. So they did a lot of translated. I sage discovery center. We are still involved with that in certain extents. We refreshed the I sage center, put a new ulna in there, which was an exciting moment. The outside graphics, we staff it. We produced plaques together with the Espenskin Company about the I sage, which you'll see on the Skittles. As soon as the Skittles start running. And we're supporting the board as they move forward with their long-term plans and Jason is on that as well. The partners in our belly as we're working on the bigger plan that you just talked about, Fred. We had a committee meeting with Aces, with CMC, with the kids treehouse and others. What are you going to do this summer around the ice age so that we can put together a short term program in the meantime. And ACES is now doing as result hikes Tuesday through Saturday, to our hike every day on this topic. So they've really stepped up. CMC is going to do eight to 10 workshops, which is great. We're producing the calendar, which again goes back to that program. It fits very nicely of all things I say the people can do. And then I also created a speaker's barrel. Yes. Is anything happening on the Zecler property yet? I mean, they committed to build something there. And is there any, what is it, when you say they're taking a hike, what's the access? Where are they going? Kagan Well, it's a very good question, and I don't have the answer today because they're working on getting access to ZIGAR, because that would be ideal. But, short of that, there's a hike that they can take all around Snowmass, and there's other sciences they can tell. They can go up to the rim trail and look down and tell the stories from there. So that detail is being reached out. If I remember correctly, they were going to give us an easement to the public over a trail to some museum or something they were going to build there. Right. Some kieska stories. Yeah, and my understanding is they still want to do that. It's a matter of just moving forward. Jason, do you want to comment? That's fair statement. The Aces is taking the lead. They have a great relationship along with the DMS representatives. But as far as the Aces hikes go for this summer, one option is you must go up to to the room trail you get a vantage point, but the Ideal is to take the sleigh ride trail and then cut across there and either use their Drive-over for access or another trail so they're just finalizing and in terms of long-term the zigglers have indicated that they want to Make some type of permanent viewing platform or pavilion happen at the property where you can look in it just hasn't been finalized at this point so. Right, if the desire is still there. And then lastly I was just mentioning that we created Spikers Bureau. The teacher diggers from the site last year had been trained by Dr. Stinson and Dr. Miller and we've got a database of those people. So we've already have a couple of groups set up to where meeting planners coming into town, other groups have asked for somebody to come and do a talk, and I now have somebody that I can call to do that. So that's been great. Fred's up. Groups, mix and measurement. Well, I think the mix and measurement, we've kind of discussed to some extent with kind of creating this new matrix to define our successes and maybe not our successes. One thing that I did want to make note of is we've adopted a vertical orientation where our sales managers have several vertical markets, some two, some three. I have one myself. I really wanted to kind of bring a little bit of my entrepreneurial background to the table. And I'll allow my staff to kind of work their market, develop plans within their own market, and kind of leverage opportunities within their own market and kind of leverage opportunities within their own market. If we're going to the next slide I think is me as well. So again just for the public what's a vertical market? A vertical market would be like a medical field or for instance my market is incentive. So essentially each of my sales managers has multiple markets and they're going to tell me, spell off what types of things that they're going to do to leverage these markets and be successful in these markets. There's that way of doing business where you could go geographical. I believe a vertical orientation could be a little bit more strategic. To me, geographical makes a heck of a lot of sense when you're phoning during the hook and you're distributing leads. This is a more proactive stance in my opinion. So I've been talking about, was a group's event, the variant. I think one of the biggest issues is that we're not exactly egalitarian. It's kind of bothered me since I got here in day one. We're very good at producing needs for the Western and for the Vystra. But we're not great at producing opportunities for maybe some of the smaller lodges. So I kind of brought to the table this kind of semi-permanent events per volume that would have been in the base. It turned out to be very cost prohibitive or it would be a summer piece as well. Our summer 2013, we've got a few pieces of business that are coming down the pipe that I can't really elaborate on right now but really makes the per volume make no financial sense. I do think that we do need to address that and we're working on addressing it. And I think kind of the summer adventure program is part of that answer. But that is kind of one of my biggest goals moving forward is to find a way to equally represent our lodges because I just don't think we do enough for some of our more, you know, our condo hotel or maybe our not quite a premium property, so. Robert likes that. He doesn't. Yeah, what's your challenge with that? I mean, there's always been an ongoing issue in snowmass village where there is a predominant. It's easier to market for the larger hotel versus the smaller one. I think it's very easy to go out and find those middle planners that handle the business type meanings. And unfortunately, when it comes to business type meanings, and you all know when you travel on business, you kind of want to auto room to yourself. You don't want to shack up in a condo with an associate or with someone you may or may not know. And those middle planners or those association what big new planners are those? Association or scientific meeting planners are very easy to find. It's a little bit more difficult on the social front finding those guests. There are going to be some things that we are going to do. For instance, we are going to get a nice social and weddings piece up on our website. We are going to use Spencer Money on SEO, pick a click, things like that. But it's just a little bit more hard to be super proactive when it comes to the type of business on the group side that is going to fill that less traditional product. But we need to figure that out. I mean, it's simple. Yeah, because I mean, how many rooms do we have that are in kind of minimums? Or is this how many rooms we have in the vice-roy? Probably, we're over 50%. So I mean, we weigh heavier there, and we do less for them. It strikes me that the people who will stay at a kind ofium in the summer, the same people are going to stay at a condominium in the winter, and that's families that come out, you know, for a week's vacation. And I know your group sales, but, and maybe it's out of your Bailey Wick, but isn't there some way you could coordinate with lodges to try to market to the people who come here in the wintertime. That's exactly the answer. That's 100%. In my view, it may not be shared across the board, but that's how it gets done. A 100% agree. Great minds. Two friends. Online and social marketing, as I mentioned, is becoming bigger and bigger and it needs to. You can't ignore it. So we really jumped in. Let's speed ahead in the past couple of years. Last year in particular, Facebook, we grew our fan base from 200 fans to 12,000 in just one year. So it was a pretty big achievement. We're on Twitter. Because, because we're on so many different online vehicles right now, we also want to make sure that the website is functioning as well as it can. So we hired a third-party company to do an audit. We got the audit results about three months ago. We started initiating a lot of the enhancements and the other recommendations they gave us. things like the order that lodges appear, the lodges want it in rotation so that they can sometimes be first in that alphabetical to where they're always in the same place, but the guest wants to see it alphabetically. So we do it both ways. We've got two different options so that both of our stakeholders are happy. Does that align the website with the social, I mean, do you get the feedback you're getting from that consultant? Does that cross over to the social marketing aspect as well as the website? Well, it does. In particular, things like search engine optimization, having the right word. So when you do last, when you're on Facebook, this is a little bit beyond my purview, which is why we have a consultant right now, to help us understand what are the few key words that are most powerful. There's a whole exercise, and that's another recommendation, is that after all these things are done, we're going to do another usability study to see what's working, what's good. Have we improved this, and to what extent? So it's really telling us a lot. Some of the bigger things are translating into different languages. That's important. International is very important to us and we'll prioritize, but we want to get that done all before the winter season as well. Summer special events, the business plan said that we will take a look at all of our events and evaluate them, refresh, make them stronger, healthier, drop those that don't exist. We ended up keeping them all, but just the most truly pepper and brew fest is an example of one where we did make some modifications, not drastic because of formula as it is works pretty well, at least for a particular audience. But what we did was we took some dollars out of Friday and we made it more focused on the brews. It's three hour brewed tasting instead of two. There's some music, but the bulk of the talent is on Saturday. So now, one focus on Friday saves the money, puts it on Saturday, and we were able to hire two headliners for Saturday. Another enhancement is that we end both evenings by eight o'clock versus some of the bands in the past, until 9, 10, 10, 30, by ending at 8. It's going to send people, they're not ready to go home, they're having a great time, they had chiles and bruise, they're going dancing, you know, clubbing at the restaurants and the bars that we have in town. So let's see how those pan out, I think it should increase our OE on that. Just a follow on that. We mentioned earlier, Fred mentioned earlier, about the baseline for group sales being 2012. And in this report, you've noticed there are a lot of two-beet determinants, a heck of a lot of two-beet determinants. Because the formula was really just created and Howard and his group are still working on the formula to measure the effectiveness of these events of all of our summer events and we're talking primarily about summer events. So I just want to make sure that wasn't missed that we're taking a close look at whether or not these events are valid. Right, we had to move forward way back when to make the progress that we did, but like Robert said, we'll evaluate afterwards. International PR is a pilot test that we're doing together with the Aspen Chamber. We're bringing in media from Australia and Brazil, gourmet travelers on Harold, women's health, there's some popular magazines from Australia, and then Brazil we're lining those up and bringing them in, showcasing what the Espon's Names area has to offer and hopefully they'll start promoting us more often. I think that really saved the snowmess, this winter was the whole travel. I think that was huge. That was the top. With a lot of resorts found, well especially us because we're very strong with international. And the skiing company has an alliance out there that does a tremendous job. Plus our largest travel that we found international was the most reliable and then it came down to domestic and then the locals, the snow snubs, they didn't come with the snow snuck. They don't have to. So that was the bottom. Harder snow, that's all. Get your branches. And not all hardcore like that. Just anecdotally I've heard from other places that are really catered to the front rage that that was absolutely the case. And you know, if you're sitting down there in Denver and you know that there's no snow or the very little snow, the chances are you're not going to drive to Keystone. But if you're coming for Brazil and you get on an airplane, you're going to be here. You're coming. You've already booked a trip. You've booked your lodging. You're coming in. You're enjoying it. Guests enjoy it more than the locals do. So if someone's complaining about the snow, they're like, what are you talking about? I've had a great day here. So we also, I was at a conference not too long ago and all the resorts were hurting for the most part. Even when you heard stories of a certain area that got snow, it was at the end when everything was already done. One resort had it so bad that they finally in February stop promoting skiing and they started promoting fishing. This in your report says TBD because it's not to find yet. It's just we've had conversations with people from time to time and our own observation is there are a lot of places that are cluttered here. So this is to work with New Landlord and try to declutter the area. Try to make it neater with Peter. We had talked about this as well. Instead of having flyers stuck on every door all over the mall and the base, maybe buying some frames, nice neat frames that we can hang in strategic locations and we do weekly flyers, slip them in there. So it's a future project that we want to take a look at. We're also supporting Hunt in the way finding for the village and the trails. Mr. Fred. Mr. Fred. Well, T Boeing there. Again, this is a little bit about what I discussed, about getting them here. And this is a photo actually from the Helmsbresco, which is the Helmsbresco fan that we ran in December, the largest site selection and firm in the world. We've seen significant amounts of action from them on a national basis since running this fam. You know, really it's a, like I said, it's a competitive marketplace and we are 100% concentrating on creating relationships with those that can bring us up business in the near term and creating those long lasting relationships to create that pipeline. And it just speaks to that. And that's really the motto in my office is, you know, I'm not really into kind of plunking ads and various meeting magazines. I don't feel we have big enough budget to make traction there. But we do have probably the most spectacular mountain in the world. And we're going to leverage that. And I've got a staff that's amazing. And we're going to leverage those personalities. And as many of the lodges can attest to, they've seen a major upswing in opportunities. And it's based on that attitude. We're almost done. Speaking of relationships, partners and alliances, in addition to the strong collaborations that we have with the Aspen Scheme Company and the Aspen Chamber and stay as been snowmass and roaring for chambers and Colorado tourism, et cetera. We all work collaborative together. We have also joined the Four Rivers Board, and it's alliance among towns from Snowmass through Silt and beyond to talk about regional tourism, which is getting hotter and hotter. And along those lines to the regional trails summit, we've got one of the best trail systems, John, and the world in a lot of area that's covered. So there's a new summit that has been formed to be able to capitalize on that and build pieces together even stronger. Department of Realignment is also a TBD. We've been around for nine and a half years. The board and staff has been here for nine years and the world has changed a lot. And so we want to step back in a retreat the end of June or early July and evaluate where we came from, why, where we're headed, are we positioned properly, are we aligned properly? So that will be ended up shortly. Communications, we actually made them more formal and put together a list of all the different ways that we communicate with our stakeholders throughout the year. Some of them to note would be the monthly newsletter. We've done newsletters in the past, but now we've made a commitment to ourselves and hold ourselves responsible for doing this every month, both the overall snowmast tourism as well as a monthly one that Fred does. Regarding group sales, it's more specific to the lodges, and there's a link to it in the first one. I think those have been great. Have you got feedback from? It's been pretty positive. What it says to me and Fred, you'll appreciate this. We've been working on butself for years. We've been doing a lot, and we haven't been telling people enough. So now that they're seeing it, really, you do that, you do that. Yeah, we do all that. So I do appreciate you telling us, talk to me. Winter launch has been reinstituted. We still do things free classes, free seminars, social marketing, security classes. We do free photographs, and that worked really well for people because a lot of smaller folks in particular can't afford photography. And we brought somebody in and they staged beautiful food presentations and externals for lodges and that's been a tool for them. But it also helps us because now we have better photography on our website for their listings. And then also reaching out to Colorado Welcome Centers. We're bringing in all the ambassadors at the Welcome Centers around the state to come in here for a fam to people from each location. I believe there's 12 or 13 locations. And we'll show them snowmess. Because as we all know, once you see snowmess, you love snowmess. And now when they have guests who drive up to their Welcome Center, they can make sure that we're on the radar screen. And then finally, if someone else is turned to talk, I was remiss. I did want to mention to you and Rhonda, I think they got replacement pages, one page for your business report where I'm getting old, so I read the numbers wrong in this little tiny fine print of M-trip, so I corrected the numbers for the X-games and you have accurate numbers here. So on that note, I'd like to ask if anyone on the board wants to share anything before we discuss this. And they're all jumping at Q. I just want to clarify two points that have already been discussed. One, the board and speaking for gentlemen there that we made a big decision in their recent meetings to align ourselves much more tightly with Aspen, location-wise. So you see that in the advertising process, you'll see that in collateral, you'll see that in our general process forward. Because we felt that was the smartest way to grow our process going forward. And I just wanted to make that statement clear, even though it was shown that in terms of some of the advertising that Susan had brought up, because that positioning is, we believe, going to be a strong step forward in the process. So that would be point one. And the second point is to clarify something, that's said, sharing the group committee. The object in the mission with the sales background is to try and get as many leads as we possibly can. We made a big change from a traditional, traditional for slumass anyway, dollars and cents budget on each individual salesperson and rather create an activity process because they lead very rightly as you had said Jason could be a 10 person for one night or it could be 15,000 room nights in the month of June. It's about generating that business and then we can use that as a process moving forward, hence to try and clarify that we want to try and establish that each of our salespeople are creating the most activity possible across the broader spectrum. It's not about the Western, the Viceroy or Stonebridge. It's about the broad spectrum trying to get our business across the entire community so that the issue becomes volume. So I just wanted to clarify that. Yeah, I think that's a good point. Obviously you bring a lot more to town if you have a thousand people than one person or group of 10. So I think that's important. Any other comments? Okay. Then just very quickly, does the report format work for you? Or any suggested changes on this? No, I think it's, no, I'll go ahead for it. Yeah, no, I'm delighted with it. I thank you. I don't need to be crashed, but you come a long way, baby. I mean, this is good stuff. The timing that we proposed made, we felt that this worked really well because April is such a small number. We don't want to wait too long, but we want to have enough of winter, which we have at this point. August, the next quarter. Originally it was November for the next report, but you do the budget approval in October and rather than take your time in October. And then again, in November, recommended October and then January gives us enough meat for how we're doing winter for next year. Do you think February might be more appropriate because it'll give you a lot more history on where you've gotten today and you'll be able to collect information on sales tax and all the other reports? Right. February, I do. You're right. I think February would be better because January is still too soon for any, you won't have any sales tax, right? I mean, you wouldn't have Christmas. The poor mayor. You wouldn't have the holiday items. And then you'd have a better idea in the middle of the winter. I'd be in favor of moving the January to a February. I would too. And I'd give you a little more board too. You guys can discuss that if you think that makes sense. And then in twice a year the board becomes in front of the council and that's May and October. May and October. Okay. The others are written reports like you got here. And any other comments, thoughts, observations? Questions. Well thank you guys. Thank you. It's been very helpful, bringing all this information together. Jason, do you have anything that you'd like to... I just want to... I just have a question. The frontier of airlines pulling out. Is that concerning to us? What is the... David, you can probably answer that for best. Yeah, thanks for asking. I actually thought somebody might might ask about air. Yeah, frontiers out and the Q400 aircraft are gone. They basically have sold or parked them. So chances of them returning anytime soon are pretty low. They do have an aircraft, the Embraer 190, which probably has the manufacturers as capabilities of flying. It's very similar to the 700 that flies in here now, but they haven't, you know, not planning to deploy it. So we will see fewer total air seats in here and next year. And, you know, Frontier's price competition was really welcomed in the marketplace. So I think those are probably negatives. To lose Frontier, they were a great addition. Senator's price competition was really welcomed in the marketplace. So I think those are probably negatives to lose frontier. They were a great addition. That said, it just points out to the, I think the wisdom of this group for approving the support for American last year to bring them in the marketplace. Because we were concerned we might lose frontier. So that move to bring that monetary support to American was huge. American by the way had load factors as past winter of 67.5%, which is good. That's a good first year performance for American. They're very pleased. They're extremely pleased with their Dallas flight. LA didn't feel in quite as fast. But they also, United has four flights a day from Los Angeles as well. So there's a little more competition. Already Americans loaded their flights for next year for next winter and the United is loading all their flights. And of course we have additional summer flights this year. So we have Houston and Dallas as well as Chicago and LA. So we've got good summer, air, and next winter looks pretty good. The total number seems to be down so so the load factors hopefully will be up and hopefully the prices won't be too volatile. Anything else, Jason? That's good for me. Okay Fred. Great, thank you. Yeah, I noticed that when Frontier announced they're no longer flying that the airfare is the very next day. It went about $250 around Trip from here to Denver. It makes it tough on families. It's a challenge. I know you guys are working hard with American, which I think is good. I noticed you increased your sponsorship, and this is specifically the snowmass for the X Games. And the price keeps going up and up and up on that, and what we have to contribute as a community towards that, you get some information on occupancy during the X Games, X Games. But at what point do you reach that tipping point where it's just not worth it? But at what point do you reach that tipping point where it's just not worth it? I mean, it's a question I've had and I know the community's got a wrestle with that because on the EOTC committee that we all sit down, we disbumped our commitment to help with the transportation with the X Games by another 50,000 and we put a hundred thousand in towards that. There's got to be a point where you have to question whether or not that money is really getting a good return on investment. I'd like to answer that. We were approached about the additional $50,000. My question was, what would you rather spend that money on for a bigger ROI. We didn't have a clue. We had such recognition of the X Games and such awareness of Aspen Snowmass that I think I hope we can afford it forever because I think it's a major, major event that puts us on the map, literally domestically, but internationally, and we couldn't think of a better way to spend $50,000 and get a better ROI. I was really glad to see the update on the ROE analysis of X Games because in the original version it wasn't looking quite as good. My eyes, it's a little report so that's why I want to make sure that you got this replacement page which shows it more than covers it and is how it said it's not event as much as it's the international exposure. John you use the example of the Olympics that I think is perfect comparison. It's cost the summer games in London which which are what, 75 days now or something like that, it's incredible how much it's going to cost England to put that event on. And they're not going to recover that in the two weeks of the room rental. So, I mean, thinking big term and I appreciate your, at least considering that, you know, just keep putting more money into this, but overall for the resource, good. I really do appreciate the efforts that you put out towards international. I think that my wife works at an association in town and it's really made a huge difference for them because it's stable. It's a stable source of revenue. I think a lot of us locals are jaded on snow conditions, but I grew up in Michigan where, you know, the worst day here is better than the best day ever back there. I mean, that's why you see a lot of Michiganers out here as well. So I would encourage more emphasis in that, because it is stability thing. Summers still seems to be remaining soft. And do you have the M-trip information for the summer, is that? Yeah, it's pacing up. I can't remember the percentage pacing up. It is pacing up, but you're not going to see where the numbers aren't going to really show too much until closer and people book later in the summer. It's just how their behaviors work. So you'll almost be doing backwards looking at the reports to see how it performed. We also have the impact of the silver, do you want to say that? No, go ahead. We have the impact of the silver tree being closed. I don't believe personally, opinion that we're going to lose much business because of that. There will be some loyal groups that tend to go there. But I believe that most are going to still want to come to snowmast but find their accommodations elsewhere. And then we are a little bit under construction but it also is a good story. In 2013, as Fred said, we're really cooking on groups and that's really what we need as a base and then continue to fill in with leisure. You're taking what? 300 to 350 rooms out of inventory for the summer? 22%. 22%. I was going to say 15, approximately. But still, it's pretty significant. You know, if the patterns continue to be primarily weekends, you're going to see a hit because we're close to being full. Most of the lodges are close to being full for weekends, or several weekends during the course of the summer. Previously, well, you're going to see some numbers that aren't, I think, to differ from Susan, our little different next year. Another year of baseline, the next year perhaps until we build another hotel and then another, you know, getting a baseline is going to be tough. Okay. All right, well, thank you very much. I appreciate you coming back to us with this and we'll look forward to the August presentation. All right, we're going to take another quick five minute break in. Reconvene. Two liter, man. So the agenda is the vice-roy annual temporary use permit. Mr. Nevens, welcome. Councilor. Nice being here. Let's open the public hearing first. We picked up in the public hearing at this point. Please let me know if there's anything else. The vice-force snowmouse is seeking approval of an annual temporary use permit for the staging of social events, weddings, and other special functions year-round within temporary 10 structures or outdoors on the Vista lawn. At lot seven of the base village PUD, lawn area measures approximately 140 feet by 160 feet, which is about 22,000, 400 square feet, or roughly half an acre. The site is currently included as part of the vice-roy snowmasses license to premise area so they're able to serve alcoholic beverages on it. As proposed tents and an outdoor seating area would be set up on an as-need basis and then dismantled after each event. So wouldn't the tent or any structures wouldn't be set up on a permanent basis like this happened in the past with the Brothers Grill 10 on Panty Hill, strictly beyond an as-need basis. The proposed hours of operation for an actual event would be from 7 a.m. to 12 midnight as proposed, and include it two hours additional for setup and two more hours afterwards for take down. It's sort of an effective range of between 5 a.m. and 2 a.m. to set up, have the event and then take down. But that's the outer range of sort of hours of operation. On last seven, it's currently applied but in developed residential condominium site. It is bounded by wood road and parking lot seeded a last. The vice-right hotel immediately to the north. As a ski hill, the Timbers Club in Dearbrook townhomes, sort of to the east, and immediately to the south, the enclave condominiums. Tonight, Town Council should consider whether the temporary use is appropriate, that there are limitations within the operations plan to ensure that the accessory useful minimizes impact on the surrounding land uses, and that the proposed proposal conforms to municipal code section 16A-5-260 temporary uses. Planning Commission review this application received both written in verbal comments at a regular meeting on May 2nd. The recommendations to council are included as attachment for, and that's planning commission resolution number six. New annual temporary use permit applications have a 15-day public notice requirement for both publication and posting, and both those requirements have been met. At this public hearing, town council shall consider the application. And council shall consider all relevant materials and testimony. Shall consider the review standards subsection D. And shall that resolution approve, approve with conditions or deny the application. We receive comments from the Timbers Club, the Chamani, two comments from the Derbrook condominiums, and two letters from Mr. Blumenthal as representative of the on-clave condominiums. And those are included in your packet as attachments 3A through F. I think it's fair to say that public planning commission staff issues and concerns relate primarily to the duration of the permit as requested, which is 12 months. Hours of operation for potential events, including both setup and takedown. Site capacity in terms of people in off street parking. capacity in terms of people in the street parking. The Hectorler and pedestrian traffic on Wood Road. Visual noise, odor, and servicing impacts on adjacent properties. Size and height of potential tent structures. Site maintenance and irrigation of preliminary landscaping. And then if approved how this permit will be reviewed for a new law whether it should be administrative or that we should go back through the process that we're going through now with plenty of commission review recommendations to council and then council final determination or whether this could be reviewed after it approved just by council. So that's sort of out there as well. I think in summary with modifications to the operating guidelines and with adequate conditions, staff believes the proposed temporary uses appropriate and compatible with the surrounding land uses and has potential for creating positive interim You know since this is currently a undeveloped site social and economic benefits To the community with minimal impacts to the meat of a neighborhood if properly managed The draft resolution is attached to your packet as exhibit a The draft resolution is attached to your packet as exhibit a. We have tonight you, you, gentlemen, the general manager and David Bo-Det on behalf of this question for snowmass. And I believe they have some comments. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. John and all the notice requirements have been met for a public. Correct. Very good. Gentlemen, welcome. Thank you very much. Do you have a presentation for us tonight on what you're proposing? I think the proposal is outlined by the Planning Commission, really dictates or is indicative of what we're endeavouring to do. I wasn't actually at that proposal, no, David, Hoetzal Manager of the Vice-Roy represented us very well at that point. In essence, I think the Planning Commission liked what they saw with a couple of limitations. I really want to discuss those limitations and put them into your consideration. Should the present process be approved in its present form, we can operate. There's no question that there is business that we can operate through. I just think there's a couple of things we should clarify about that operation. Let's start with the previous presentation that we saw about our business growth in the area. And you see that there isn't a space any longer with the silvery and the wildwood and the conventions that are ostensibly closed. We're looking for spaces that other people could use. A group of people could easily be put up there for a specific group that would be appropriate to other condominiums or not necessarily through the Bystory business. That's fine. There's no concept of ours that only Bystory business was going to be at the Bystory could be there. This is about an area that could be utilized to the benefit of the community. You also see that both from a group and from a waiting perspective that there's a strong push by the town of Stomach to try and drive that type of business. That's exactly what this type of facility offers and there's a comparative location to something like that's on Ajax that we'd like to steal business from or bring it an opportunity for those weddings or for those group pieces of business. And we're really seeking to support the town. Obviously, we're in a situation in this present year that with the silvert tree, Wildwood, eight or so other retailers who are closing up on the more that there's a potential tax problem in terms of funds coming away. Additional revenues is always trying to drive into the community and that's going to come through with that. The clarification in terms of the startup time was I think projected at 6.30 the planning commission projected 6.30 a.m. start through an 11 PM finish. 11 PM finish means we would have to be completely finished with everything, food, everything removed from the site, which effectively would close our event down. I suspect by 10 o'clock, given an appropriate cleanup process and getting that sorted. In the main, any concern that's being put forward has actually come from the part-time residents of second home and in this situation community. And I would be very concerned that they would outweigh the year round businesses and full-time residences in trying to support the community because that's all we're trying to do in trying to driving our business potential and promotion and also creating additional tax revenue to the community. Why do I say that? Because at 10 o'clock, if I said to you or you or your daughter's wedding can come, it can be on that event but it has to finish by 10 o'clock Do you really think they're coming? We had the possibility for a piece of business For a very large automotive manufacturer that would have used the lawn And when we proposed that that type of restrictions that was not going to be an option. By the way, it was a $50,000 dinner for 250 people. And the reality of that process is that I don't think many of our people will be going to midnight. But the thought process that they couldn't have the option to midnight immediately takes that as a viable option for an event of that caliber. Someone who's spending a couple of hundred dollars ahead for dinner with all of the taxes and with all of the additional costs going to that per person. And I just want to put that into a perspective that makes real sense. It's important for us to recognize that I understand that there are immediately an adjacent residence to that area. But I also say to you that I've been the general manager of the hotel here in Snowmass since July of 2010. And there has been no one complaint about noise in that period of time. Not one has made it to my desk from July 2010. In that situation, we've run events on the pool area, which is immediately adjacent to our neighbours. We've been very careful to fulfill ourselves to the letter of the law, and we would do that going forward. I understand previous to that period of time that there were issues but I can assure you the leadership of the hotel has taken that very seriously and we have addressed that going forward in every way shape or form. We've done events for 600 people that have had no issue whatsoever and that have actually moved from the pool area of the hotel down into the ballroom along the adjacent walkway that's on Assay Hill as an example. And that, if you would remember, would be the Kellogg group that was here in December of 2010, the largest group that this area had in many, many, many, many, many a period. I think that's the first stage. I think that we are obviously in a process where we're looking for an annual permit. That means we want to operate for 12 months. We see there are advantages for us to operate our business in in all periods of time and hence the HUP annual temporary use permit seems appropriate that title that you do in an annual event. And I think the third point that would make complete sense, and our track record would say that we have followed up carefully, we had an annual temporary use permit for the loose, the electric vehicle. We followed through on that process, we delivered and then had that annual temporary permit again renewed and renewed with the process that the administer, it would become an administrative process going forward. Because we followed the instructions, because we followed the process and because we delivered on the promises that we made to you as a Councillor, to the city of Stomach. So in a nutshell, I think that it's in that would amend the position. I would implore the council to afford us the longest time frame possible on an evening process. Because that's where the real money is, that's where the big events happen in the evening. But that being said, you said me I couldn't do it, we run our business. I've got a number of events that are going to operate. They just won't be of the magnitude or the quality or of the substance. Or probably even of the cachet that would exist if it was an evening event of that type of quality. The town has been very supportive of us thus far. Okay, that would exist if it was an evening event of that type of quality. The town has been very supportive of us thus far. I wish not to create any drama other than to give a point of view that would substantiate additional possibilities for business. Okay, thank you. Before I take public comment, are there any questions from council? I have a way for public comment. All right, as well. Could you explain to us what you're really intending here with this tent? When I first read it, it sounded like it was going to be a permanent structure, but apparently it's not. How are you going to store it? Where is it coming from in the mobile bathrooms? I'm also curious as to where the location and how they are going to be permanent or not. How are you going to store it? Where is it coming from in the mobile bathrooms? I'm also curious as to where the location and how they are going to be permanent or not. Sure. Let's talk about 10 first. There is no 10. It's going to be exactly like you would do if you were on the on the rugby field in the middle of the Aspen during the food and wine. The 10 specialized tenting companies that work with the fire brigade who understand completely and totally the nuances attached to any fire life safety issues. They are tense, they can be put down and removed, there can be in adjustable sizes. Realistically the expense of that particular tent process would not be borne by the hotel, it would be borne by those who wish to have the event, and be posed into that process. And we have had good support by the 10, same 10 companies that are working in food and wine. They are specifically designed for those processes and can be made as large or as small appropriate to the event that's there. And also understand that there are some instances where we would do events that wouldn't have a tent, wedding ceremonies, for example, would be on that adjacent beautifully done lawn area and there would be held there and then maybe moving down into our ballroom or to another place to have their reception or whatever that may be. So it would be a less visual process on that point of view. You might have a created altar and seating arrangements and then maybe cocktails, but not necessarily have a tent structure at all. It could be used for things, and this is a market that the city has been really looking to, what is called the incentive market, where they would do, we have lots of different things with our skiing and what have you. But in the summer, to be able to do events, to be able to do events, that apart and parcel of meetings that exist quite probable, that would be held up there. We're looking at, for example, in the last number of years, there has been a car show called the Exotica, which has had Lamborghini's and Audi's and what have you through it last year, the base village. This year there may be a car show which would display up on the Vistaloan. And it decarified the size of the Vistaloan. It's 8100 square feet of area that we would realistically be using for the event. That's the solid area. There's a 1.5 meter yard. So what's that about? Five feet, six feet of space either side to calculate them in my new country's jargon, right? So about five feet, a boundary, which is actually right around the lawn if you haven't been up to sea, it's done very, very well. And then surrounding that is an area which will be a workplace for us to be able to do our cooking or presentation or creating the bars or what have you. As for the mobile bath units, we're looking at a there's a Jason area which is close to the hotel on the lot sea side. So it's run the front corner which is a flattened area and you literally tow in the units very much similar to jazz, as from snowmats. The same type of unit is our vision for that. It is not a fixed unit, it is not there permanently. It's brought in as a quality facility that then is removed at the end of the event. In typically, okay, well that's interesting because when I read this, I was thinking you're going to have a 22,000 square foot tent. And I'm just going to say that's an awfully large tent. So what's the average size tent that you would have on? I don't think we would have a tent bigger than 9,000 square feet. And that's if we went adjacent and hung over a certain part of the footage. I think that would be the maximum tent size we were talking about. And the only reason I mentioned that particular, John, as we were looking to work with the city for a particular exhibition, which we're going to have to create a flooring that was a couple of feet off the ground because off there is the Graded area the the main lawn and in order to be able to fit this particular display We're going to have to go off the great lawn and there's a fallaway That we're going to have to build up to make that happen. So that would be the maximum capacity tent Okay, just one other clarification before I go in public comments that we did get a letter from an adjacent unit on our homeowner, Steven Silber, that talked about calling the police about noise and was that prior to what you were saying since you've been there? Do you know when that? I don't know the particular individual but the point fact is and under oath as I sit in here, there has not been one comment made to me about noise in my hotel since July 10, 2010. John, I can speak to that. I asked the police chief to pull out his records of noise complaints related to the viceroy. There were a total of six all occurring in 2010 between January. I don't know what the date was in July, but the last event was the beginning of in July. We have not received another complaint that he has a record of. Okay, well thank you for that clarification. Okay, at this time I'll take any kind of public comment. Is there anyone here wishing to speak to this application? Please step to the microphone and identify yourself. I'm Lee Wilson, I'm the property manager at Chomene. And I did submit a very brief comment to the Planning Commission and has been included in your packet. I'm here, the board asked me to make further comment that they support Mel Blumenthal's letter or letters. And they're very concerned about the late night noise and I think structural height of maybe of the tents, I guess, anything that might be put in there. But the late night could, I think, potentially affect our complaints from rental guests as well as owners if it went well beyond 930 or 10 something like that. I think the board is thinking that the same sort of parameters that are used on the Thursday night concerts at Fannie Hill might be more appropriate than midnight. And at the same time as a member of Snowmass Lodging Company, I do support the business potential and also as rental condominiums. The business potential of using that site, as you say, as an interim while the question is under construction and that sort of thing. And perhaps going on, that's a, it's, but the, the owner's definitely, of Chameleon definitely have, and that board has, quite a bit of concern about the late night. They didn't express anything particular about the early morning, but thinking of some sort of, maybe a cut off on loud music, that sort of thing, in addition to the planning commissions, proposed, that's the Chomeney Board is supportive of those things. Thank you. Thank you. Well, question free Lee, how far away is your property from the proposal site? Hmm. I'm not sure I can give you in feeder yards or meters. I'm sure I can't do it in meters. But acoustically it's not the most important thing. It is directly up as a hell from and visible from many of the Shamanee kind of many directly visible. As I look over from our pool deck, I can see the venue and I agree. It's a very, I think, that done a great job of that venue. We're not as close as the enclave but we are certainly it would be a straight auditory shot. Okay. And your association was in the notice area? Is that there's no mailing requirement for temporary use? Oh really? But the public notice hearing requirements are publication in the snowman sun and posting the property, which is that public notice sign was facing would road on the fence directly on site. Okay, thank you. And just for your information, I did scale the shamanee off the assessor's maps. It's about 650 square feet or 650 linear feet from the edge of the last seven up to the shamanee. But the important thing is that the shamanee is uphill and sounds seem to travel better up than it does down. Good about 210 meters. No. Thank you. Thanks, Tom. That was my next question. Definitely more than the 300 foot limit that would be if we had a mailing for this. Okay. That's a good point. Thank you. Anything else, Lee? Nope. Okay. Any other comments? I just would make one comment about the structure size. That particular site is actually structured or in the PUD going to be a residential unit at some point, which is going to be two, three, four times higher than any possible tent just to put that into some clarification. I would like to see that application. But it's not... What have you done part of the PUD, right? Yeah, that's it. Okay, very good. Mike? Hi, my name is Mike George, and I represent Snowmass Lodging Company. We manage the enclave and Shamanie, so I work with Lee. And our comments are pretty much outlined in the letters that you've received in the pack, but just to reiterate a couple of them. 5 AM to 2 AM window is just too broad a time range for our particular clients. The enclave is much closer than the Chamani, let's guess, at about half the distance. Point being that the very ironies, the type of functions that will generate most money coming from the world at the vice-versa is in are the things that are loud in the evening. And when the proposed building for the site is up, that's going to be a lodging facility. And effectively be a sound break. It might be a light issue, but it's going to be a sound break. And it's not going to be a public food and beverage area within a couple of hundred feet of adjacent structure. And no matter how well the folks manage it if you run till two o'clock in the morning, for all the families that are going to be resident on that side of the structure, whether they're residents or tenants, that's going to create a disturbance. And the vehicle that the Planning and Zoning Commission talked about as far as an enforcement process for a noise issue, really I thought put an extraordinary burden on the town manager. So there's a noise complaint at 11 o'clock at night and it gets to me at midnight and I'm supposed to call the town manager and he's supposed to somehow make an evaluation as to whether or not that's a violation of the permit. I just thought that that's a structure that's built for tension. And I don't see how that there's any way that that would functionally work. One man's music is another man's noise. It's really the shortest way to say that. And since all of you are residents and most of you have families, I just want you to think about a facility within 200 or 300 feet of where you're sleeping where they start at five in the morning and finish it to at night. That seems too broad a time range. I understand that this puts pressure on the business plan. That isn't a business plan that's really been studied for that site, an outdoor food and beverage facility. I understand it will generate tax dollars. I understand it will help from the commercial standpoint, but those needs have to be balanced against the needs of the families and those adjacent buildings. So we would ask for a more reasonable time frame understanding that it does put pressure down and pressure on the business plan. What time do you want to wake up in the morning for delivery trucks for bathrooms? What time at night do you want to stop hearing that 70s music from the weddings? When does that stop? And if you have a kid trying to go to sleep, it's not going to work in those buildings. If you have music that's loud in a tent, then a couple hundred feet of your structure. It's just not the right use. So when I was first asked to consider what was reasonable, I first thought about, what's the construction time frame. We all have to tolerate seven in the morning till six at night, Monday through Saturday. That's the rule. This is a different use. There be no way they could do any evening functions that cut off at six at night. So I thought, well, what does the community do for the Thursday night concerts? I don't really go to very many of those, but I hear that those usually end around nine or ten o'clock at night. That that's a reasonable timeframe that the community has decided is okay, a mix of commercial use and residence use. So those are the time frames that I would ask you to consider as something reasonable for properties so close to this venue. It's just too close to run five AM to two AM, that's just too tight a window. Thanks. Thank you very much. Any. to 2 a.m. That's just too tight a window. Thanks. Thank you very much. Any other comments? Mr. Howard? Thank you, John. My name is John Howard and I represent the Dear Brook Town Homes. I'm here on behalf of the owners and the board. We're right across the hill from the vice-foy. I won't reiterate everything that's been said but but just to voice our support on it at the hours of too long, especially when you think about the summer. We've had some comments from rental guests and owners that are there during the winter time, but they have their windows closed. They're not on the decks. It's not that big a deal for them. But when you get in the summer time, and people try and take advantage of sitting out in the evenings or having their windows open when they're trying to sleep, it becomes problematic. I've had a few complaints and I've never done anything about them but they're just because of the mechanical plant from the vice-roy. It sounds like the 737 taken off over half over there half the time. I'll just, you know, voice our support for more reasonable hours. Because in the summertime, deerbrook does have a lot more summer-long rental guests. Out of 15 units, we've got five of them over there this year. Plus one full-time owner. And I want to turn it over to Steve Silver. Oh, were you the one? Oh, yeah, I was the one. Oh, okay. I'm sorry, I didn't know that was who you were. Oh, no problem. Yeah, I'm Steve Silver. I am a full-time resident here at Dearbrook. And I moved here in 93, so I've been here for quite a while left for college and stuff, but for the most part have been full-time resident here. Yeah, I think, I'm sorry, I forgot your name, but Mike George. Hi. You mentioned something about the structure, how the noise is too much, if there's complaints, or something like that. Then at 11 o'clock at night or whatever you call, it seemed okay. Yeah, one of the issues that I had during those six noise complaints, let me just first say the reason that there were no more complaints after those six is because it was extremely obvious to me that nothing was going to happen. So I honestly I gave up, I bought some ear plugs which is a little bit annoying. I do a lot of my work from home so while I'm trying to work at home it becomes extremely difficult. So just to give you an idea, I'm not exaggerating, I did go out and buy a deathboard reader because I was curious what, you know, I don't like to be a big complainer. Like you said, I'm all for a business in Silmas, you know, resident here, but the deathboard readings that I received, are they in that? Police report? I don't have that information. Okay. There is in the police report, they actually came over, they had somebody from Aspen come over and give us decibel readings. And without that on paper, I don't want to quote in yes, decibel levels, but they were definitely considerably by a good 20 or so decibels over what is considered the legal limit in asking. So this is what I was told by the police during each time that they came over. First of all, I did go over first and tried to speak with you weren't there yet. No, I was not. Right. I tried to speak with you weren't there yet. No, I was not. Right. Try to speak with the manager and was denied. The manager would not come out and speak with me. I tried to speak with them about the speakers, the way that they were set up, maybe they still are. The way that they came, there's like, are you guys familiar with that pool area of the vice-roy right? There's these big walls and then there's the pool and then there's these speakers and the speakers just bounce off those walls and They go straight at my Windows basically so even with all my windows and door shut and blinds per-down It's still over what is considered an acceptable decibel level for even special events in Aspen, which I believe is about 65. I just looked it up the other day, so it's certainly under 70. The decibel levels were way over that. So with all these complaints, with trying to speak with the manager, those number of times that I just ended up getting up, the statements of maybe these events won't normally go until 2 a.m. won't go because this is right 12, but actually it's 2 for take down, right? Even with that parameter in there, just from past experience, it seems like if there's no limit set that it's going to get pushed. So I would like to see a number there, like a decibel level, something that's readable. So when the police came over, they could not do anything about it. That's what they said. They said, the way that the tone of snowmasses, noise violation, things, says that it cannot be above a reasonable level. And I said, well, do you think this is above a reasonable level? And they said, well, I'm a police officer. I'm not qualified to make that decision. Well, who is qualified to make that decision? I mean, obviously, the person who's qualified to make that decision, whoever they are, aren't coming out during that complaint. I don't want to quote it so we should check it, but I believe that my desk full levels were up to 90, which is, I don't know if you have an awareness of what 90 is, but it's probably about the same level that you would maybe watch TV. How are lawnmowers? That's inside my house with my doors and windows closed. So anyway, that's what I would call for. I feel like I would love for this to go through because I love, I'd go over and eat at the Bytes Roy and have drinks and it's nice that it's there. The pool's great, but there needs to be some kind of standard set. Thank you very much. Getting other comments? Just to clarify, the takedown situation, I think there's a valid comment in this concept of takedown. I have no desire to have trucks removing tents at two o'clock in the morning. That just makes no sense. That's totally and completely irrational. And if that needed to be put in place on a piece of paper that said we wouldn't do that, I'm perfectly okay with that. It's never going to happen. There's a three day up and down process in our proposal anyway. Realistically, the takedown for us is we have to be able to take down means remove food to a space where it's back to square. It's not about removing the space back to a tent. I wanted to clarify that so it's back to square. It's not about removing the space back to a tent. I wanted to clarify that so it's not a ground situation. And so noise-wise, you know, we'll have a tent if there's a little chairs and what have you and what have you. But I do have to remove all of the food, stuff, so it becomes a safe environment so we don't bring bears or whatever the process into the community, right? That's the key issue. So I think in the takedown to understand that terminology or what that need be, if that needs to be clarified further, I get it. We have no desire to be pulling anything apart. We just have to remove our operating equipment that would be, I don't know what the right term is, but not good for the wildlife or whatever you're... So we've got to get back to a clean environment. That's really what the takedown is. That's also what the buildup is. There's no need to know, as I were building tents at seven o'clock in the morning, or eight o'clock in the morning, big trucks and what have you in order to make that happen. No sense whatsoever. So I would completely, that that shouldn't happen. In terms of the noise processing of mention I wasn't a noise process in the mention on the speakers. I wasn't here for those complaints, and I've been very clear on that, but I could see easily where the incorrect apportioning of speakers would create issues. I've worked with that process my entire career and my career here in Snowmass. David's a specialist, food and beverage person, and that's one of the reasons that we haven't had the issue is because we've positioned things far more correctly. I mean, there used to be really blue across the, sorry, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, a hill. Now we internalize that process by the access of speakers. So I think there's some validity to that commentary historically. But I do want to point out that July 2010 is the last complaint that's existed, and nobody, and you can get to me anytime, even Russ Forest can get to me. All right, so if there's someone who wants to talk to you about a noise situation, I'll deal with it with our question. Okay, well thanks for the clarification. Any other further public comment on this matter? And then do I close the public hearing at this point? You might want to leave it open in case there are questions from after the council deliberates. Leave it open. Okay. Very good. Let's go to council, Fred. You would all do respect. I take a little uproach to your opening comment that all the letters were coming from second homeowners. Second homeowners are an important part of this community is full time homeowners. They pay significantly more taxes than full time homeowners do and they need to be baited to feel as though they're a part of their community and part of this community and that their opinion is important. So the fact that it is coming from second homeowners would be so difficult to me whether they were second or first homeers. They're part of this community. That's number one. That would do I think the issue is really quite simple and that's noise. And especially in the summertime, having music playing till midnight would be unacceptable to just about everybody I know, whether they're full time or part time residents. I mean, Jazz asked the stone band says to close down the 10. Somehow they managed to conduct a successful concert. I would absolutely object to anything running any music being played later than 10 o'clock. It's just not fair to the people who live here. And as somebody pointed out, the summertime especially when windows are open, it just exacerbates the situation. So if it cuts down on your potential business, so be it. I certainly want you to be successful, I want you to do business, that's not the point. The point is what's truly fair for the members of this community. And what I think is fair for the members of this community is to have music stop at 10. Can I ask a question? Sorry? Can I ask a question? I think this is finished. And if you're not successful operating within that parameter, then that is probably not a good business plan to start with, because you're not being fair to the rest of the community. Thank you, fairies. Now I'm done. OK. OK. Just the one variation. I concur. I'm Mr. Nama, her and Luna. I live down on the golf course for the first 18 months. I was relatively close to where, as Espen was going on in that process. The huge variation in taking the comparison to, first in our concerts or jazz aspirin, is that they're designed to throw out sound. We're actually looking to confine sound within the confines of a tentative facility for a group of individuals in an enclosed space. It is not my desire to try and blast across a sound that you can hear at the vice-fri. I've got guests staying in the building's closest to the process, so I have to be very, very careful about that. I think that's a very important differentiator. I'm not in any way trying to create an outward going sound. To the contrary, I'm trying to create an inward environment. And with the tempted community and what have you, I think that that should be considered absolutely. And I too would not want to be interrupted. I'm not trying to create a disco that's going to exist in that process. And I just make that point. It's a fair point. And it's a fair difference. And I accept that. But that said, 300 feet from whatever sound production is being made is going to get heard. No matter how hard you try to confine it. If I'm 300 feet away from you, I'm going to hear the music that you're playing. And I just don't want to hear it after 10 o'clock. And I can't blame people for being concerned about that. Jason? Yeah, a few questions, I guess, both generally about the noise. It seems like there's room for a lot more potentially specificity in this resolution that would limit certain hours to certain decibel levels at the property line. And that's one of the problems we have here with our noise regulations is they're really pretty nebulous and impossible to enforce. And so because you're so proximate to other properties, it seems reasonable and like a good idea to include something more specific in this resolution. I'm wondering if there might be an opportunity to, I don't know how time sensitive this is for you, but to go back and refine this and add some detail around that, maybe working with neighbors. And I guess I would like to hear, I know when we recently reviewed the L-Camp restaurant, we put some pretty specific limitations on noise generation and orientation of speakers and things like that. And so I don't remember what the details of that was if you have that handy by any chance, Bob. We did that similar last summer when the JAS proposed the VIP late night tent. We went to midnight and we had specific requirements that any amplified music be oriented inwards or away from residences as much as possible. And I don't remember if we received any comments on that or not. Public, you know. You were called, did we sit at decimal threshold? No, we did think we did. But it seems like the for the Elk Camp at least we said amplified music goes till 10 or something like that and then breakdown goes until and there and the event even can carry on until midnight but it can't be generated and amplify music. And so maybe some kind of ratcheted process where the event goes full blast until 10. And then you kind of ratchet it back until some reasonable hour. So I think there's room for that as far as, like you said, if amplified music is the issue, that ends at 10 o'clock. The party can continue to 11, as we, and special events call it, sort of egress, getting people to calm down, sort of leave the premises. And then an hour after that, by midnight, no later, everything's quiet and silent. We have gone on special events, especially with jam bands on Fannie Hill till 11 o'clock with music, or maybe 10, 30, and then everything went silent at 11. But generally we try to keep loud amplified music outdoor concerts in that to 9, 9 and 10 o'clock, 11 under special circumstances. Okay. And where are we from an enforcement standpoint? We don't even have the tools as I understand it to do an effective limit on decimal readings necessarily. I don't believe we have a decimal reader. It's not to say we couldn't get one, right? But- Or the asset cost for hibit if you do need to keep it calibrated. And also depends on the threshold. 65 DV is often used as a standard for normal activity that's not amplified. That's typically normal conversation like we're having now. At the property line. At the property line. For example. So I would be in favor of something along those lines. And then you mentioned something about the community. The venue being open to community use or used by the town. What's the thought process by how that would work? Is there a rental fee that would go to the vice-row for someone that wanted to use that or is that really? No, to be frank, we haven't got so far down that path because we haven't had approval to go down that path. But the concept would be sure there would be a rental fee or maybe there would be a process whereby maybe we did the food and beverage on the land or what have you. Each one case by case, I guess the reality of the process is let me put this in perspective. Today I have about nine events very interested in doing something. Not one of them has a tent and not one of them at this point is beyond 1030, right? Not one of them. And I'm not even talking about amplifying view. I'm talking about the whole event. So the issue for us is how can we sell? You just said about being time constraints. I would implore that we did something that would allow us to move ahead even if there was restrictions that said, we needed to review a noise process beyond X, right? But the process is about us selling. At this point, it's an annual temporary use permit. We're really looking to try and drive something through the summer. As I said, I've got nine events over an entire summer at this point. So how would that work? Quite frankly, if the space is available, I'd love someone to use it. It's better being used and not used. I'm going to be having to do all of the landscaping, what have you day and day anyway, because I've already said that we're going to maintain that property as our own. As you may be aware, or may not be aware, we're actually being allowed to use that spade as part of the base village ownership, but that's not Viceroy land. It has already been approved as part of our Viceroy liquor license because we did that in advance in preparation for any opportunities that may be in place. Thanks. I guess one other comment around the noise limits is similar to your comments about not bringing trucks in at two in the morning to hall attend out. I would be in favor of seeing something on the early side of morning limiting that kind of noise generating activity as well. And again, the lift up there I really think is getting another situation where we're making preparation for breakfast. Most breakfast in the summer, I like to happen, probably start at 730. It's not like in the, in the winter we actually have really early breakfast, people who want to have really early breakfast so you can go skiing, right? And because the day's shorter, in the process in the summertime, if you have a conference of one of your outside situation, probably breakfast started at 7,730. But we would have to set up at 630 to make that happen. But that's the type of set up we're talking about. We're not talking about building a construction site, it's at 63030. I think that needs to be clear and absolutely the resolution. Let's see. Yeah, maybe we have a requirement that the speakers just be oriented at the vice-foy. And that would really happen. I mean, you'd be motivated at least to keep it. But then it's balancing. I guess I think what Steve's point is that it's bouncing off the wall. But yeah, go ahead, Chase. Let's see. Sorry. This thing bouncing off the wall, but you go ahead, Jason. Let's see, sorry, this thing is refreshing. There's a comment I think in the resolution about parking and traffic control, and it says where necessary, a traffic control officer will be employed. How do we, whose determination is that? How do we deal with that? and also in terms of safety coming over from LATSEE, it sounds like. In the resolution or in the process, if there was parking required in LATSEE, we would be required to have a parking, official parking offices, a company that does that process to make any ingress, egress, movie, and chrome LATSEE across to the event. Again, we've got nothing that indicated we need to do that at the moment. There is a to put the access or from the hotel, anything that happened in the hotel would come up though, there's a set of steps that already exist between 13 B and that site and a pathway that's been developed going through there. We see that as 99% of the egress was going, because we have a great parking facility, value parking, whatever you say we can do all that. So I guess that's maybe a question, I don't know the answer to as well. For every event that's anticipated on this site, does that require another permit? Or that any event that would ever happen on this site would be covered under this use permit? We looked at that Jason, as far as should we just review each event sort of as a site specific but it seemed like it was better to look at it comprehensively setting those outside parameters and if you know say he gets a group that's tending toward that upper limit say you know a thousand that we touch base and say I've got a group coming in as a thousand We're going to need special requirements in terms of parking, potentially transportation, or whatever, and we can work with them at that level. But for a generalized sort of operations plan, it seems that an annual temporary use permit sort of sets those general parameters. And if there's anything that's going to work with them at that level, operations plan, it seems that an annual temporary use permit sort of sets those general parameters. And if there's anything that sort of goes beyond that, we could deal with that. The tenting permit is required every time anyway, and would be dealt with as part of the flight of having process and to make sure the finalized safety is under control. So that would have to happen anyway in terms of the construction of the tent. As do electrical permits. So every time they set it up they have to have an inspection, both electrical and occupancy by the fire department. But Jason there's another reason too and that's a business reason and they want to be able to sell this to someone that's planning a wedding usually a year out. And so, you know, they can say, well, yeah, we can handle your wedding if we can convince the town council that we can use this tent. It makes it very difficult. Many of your musical tastes and all that to be submitted. No, no, no. Speaking of the musical tastes, et cetera, I was able to look up the El Camp Restaurant approval and understand that this is a result of very different considerations. It's wildlife. This is all, these are all the recommendations of the Colorado Division of Wildlife. Should extend at least the same consideration to the human wildlife perhaps. Yes. It may have different needs. I understand. But there were three conditions in that. One were that if musical performers as a conductor, conducted outdoors, speakers for amplified music shall be located directed and projected away from the Bert Mountain area consistent with a diagram that was attached. And then they had the stepped up time frame. After 10pm up to 12pm, 12pm midnight, musical performances together with uses of speakers shall be conducted only inside the restaurant building. Outdoor musical performances after 10pm shall be conducted only inside the restaurant building outdoor musical performances after 10 p.m. shall be prohibited. And special events, and this is what Bob's talking about, special events that do not fall in the current PUD guide provisions have to go through a separate temporary use permit. So if they couldn't comply with the PUD, they could always come in and ask for a temporary use of a special nature. So those were the three conditions that were included in that approval. And as I said, the preamble paragraph was in efforts to comply with the Colorado Division of Wildlife recommendations, the applicant shall address and then those three conditions that I read off to you. So just wanted to give you that as a way of background. I also want to point out that temporary uses are very much akin to a variance. Each situation is completely unique, and you're not bound by a decision that made on a different temporary use permit. So they are all considered unique. Okay. And just I guess I come into the enforcement, I forget who made the comment about having to call Russ at 11 at night and having to come out. There is the provision for hint for the town manager to rescind the temporary use permit based on complaint, right? But I don't think the idea is that he comes out at midnight and makes that determination. I would prefer to delegate that, though. Well, if we're seeing that instance, it would be that, so as a complaint, they would call the police to apply the order to respond. And the morning we'd get a report that we had a complaint, a citizen complaint, it's up to the applicant to try to minimize or correct that problem. And if it isn't met satisfactorily to the town managers satisfaction, we can then amend suspend or revoke that the temporary use permits. So it's an approval with condition or it's a conditional approval with performance based sort of conditions. Okay. I guess I'm generally in favor. I want to support it and approve it. And I'd like to see something added in here for reducing amplified music maybe past 10 o'clock. Or beyond that time within the tent, I don't know how much sound attenuation is achieved by a tent, but and maybe some orientation of speakers being restricted away from other properties surrounding the vice-versa. So. Fred, you had in the comments? Yeah, I've also in favor, don't get me wrong. I think it's a great idea, and I commend you for doing it. But as I say, there's got to be a balance. And what I'm hearing, and it's certainly when I read the resolution, I did see a lot of objective standards. Now, this gentleman says that the town of Aspen has got decibel standards for various events, I assume they have them for outdoor performances. It seems to me we ought to put that in there. There ought to be at the ought, then we've got something to put our teeth into that. We could say, listen, you violated it. You know, we've got the decibel be here and you're supposed to do 70 decibels and you were 120. That's a violation. But to leave it up to the manager's discretion is whether he thinks it was too loud or neighbor thinks it was too loud. It seems to be this, that's a little too intangible for me. Just as a point of comparison, I did look at the town code as we were for the site I'm started. And we do have in the construction management different situation, different application, but we do have a couple of noise thresholds in that one is 60 decibels for activity that could occur outside of normal construction hours and then there was another threshold of 90 decibels for high impact noise that could occur. So we do have a couple of, that's one area in our code where we have a couple of thresholds. I understand that, but again, if there's a specific decibel level for outdoor musical performances that Aspen's got, I'd like to know what that is. And if it's, or if there's something that comes close to that, I think it ought to be put in the resolution. I mean, so that we have an objective standard to say you did good or you did bad. That's number one. Number two, and it gives them some protection because if somebody is complaining and they are within the appropriate desk full of, well, they say, listen, this is what we can do, this is what we're allowed to do. And so I think it's fair to them. The second thing is the time. If we're interested in protecting elk at 10 o'clock, I am certainly interested in protecting our citizen at 10 o'clock. So I really think that the party can go on, but amplified music, I don't think should be allowed after 10. And as far as the parking is concerned, I suppose that is an event by event thing. And if you're going to have a thousand people, you've got one set of issues, if you've got to have 100 people, you've got another set. So I don't know how we regulate that other than being sure that at each event appropriate plans are submitted for dealing with parking, parking issues. But I don't know how we objectively deal with that other than saying that they have to be. If you got a forward to get an electric permit, you got to get a fire permit. And if parking is going to be an issue, you need to come forward with some sort of parking plan. In the parking process we've anticipated, we didn't say whether it was one or 5,000 cars. But if there was any cars that were being pre-organized to go into Lotsi, we would have a traffic attendant done. So that's a fixed and done deal. So and then if it was coming directly from our hotel then obviously coming through the pathway we obviously don't need that traffic attendant because the parking will be held on site. So I have no problem whether it's one or a hundred cars if they get if the pre-organizations to use lot's see then we should be as a as hard a process we should just look after the community that's no question. I agree. Okay well it looks like we have a lot of comments here that since the resolution is normally passed at first reading, I think there's a, is that true, John? There's only one reading on resolution. Right. So, I think there's enough changes to this resolution that need to be done that we may need to continue this and we can put some. I'm sorry, John. I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead, friend. Well, but in your defense, you want to go on to start telling this thing, and I think you should get the sense from us that we want you to sell it, but with these restrictions. And so if we don't have a resolution for you today, you know what it's pretty much going to look like so that So I guess what I'm saying to you is I don't want you to think that we want to Prohibit you from going out and selling and doing it whatever it is you want to do starting today. You have a pretty good sense of what the parameters are and you know work within those parameters and I suspect you know you'll have a resolution that embodies those parameters. If there's a possibility to go with the resolution that said, we agree to go through the midnight or whatever to operate that from 10 o'clock that there was no, that music definition or sound definition need to be clarified, that would help me to be able to sell at this point. As I said, I have no problem saying we're not to any up and downs before 7 o'clock or I have no problem about that or after ten o'clock. We're not going to pull anything down after ten o'clock. What we will be doing is moving things in and out. If we want to clarify that, it concerns me not that you want to support. I can see that completely. I just want to go ahead and go. I'm just kind of provide maybe some additional clarity. If you were looking at section three conditions and condition D under now, under that hours of operation. Sounds like maybe you're talking about two different thresholds, one threshold at 10 o'clock in the evening that there is not either you could say no amplified music or you could set a decibel level that it shall not be over and then are you looking then at a second threshold where by activity and operations terminate by whatever time, 12 o'clock? Well, first of all, the decibel level is for amplified music. Correct. What's the amplified music's over? So, it's not, TETA clock doesn't, I mean, the decibel level is for whenever the, the event starts till 10 o'clock. And then there's no more decibels, or there's no more amplified music. That's kind of a yes or no. If, if you could do it, yes or no, there is no amplified music after 10 o'clock. Correct. Then up until 10 o'clock, there is a decibel level. So that And up until 10 o'clock, there is a decibel level. That would be the harder one that we would need to evaluate. Well, I think we need to evaluate it. I mean, I think it is important. But is there a threshold for jazz-assetspin or is there a threshold for the Friday night concerts that we could attach to? That's more difficult. I mean, depending on the music, during hours of operation, we need to think about that. But we don't impose on ourselves or other events a threshold during a permitted time. We just impose a threshold of its time. The music's over and at a certain time. Yeah, it's asking. And that's kind of a clean, black or white. Is that something we could do outside of this approval? Making that kind of a determination and creating a noise ordinance that this would be subject to, well, you need to understand, yes, Aspen has a noise ordinance and they enforce it, but there are special events when it doesn't matter. So when they have a concert on the streets, they set the times that you don't have to be a compliance with the noise ordinance. And I think that that's the clear approach. It's not across the board. And that's why I think to answer your question, John, a TUP process, even if you had specific quantitative standards, would give you flexibility at certain times to exceed those. Okay. One comment from Steve, we gotta get this thing moving along. Yeah, super quick, I just wanted to, because I looked into this as what I wanted to say and spoke with the Aspen Police way back. And the designation for that was, or one designation was things that were planned by either the town or war like community events where, for example, like those in-ite concerts is a, like the equivalent here, is a different situation or the jazz asking things that are open to, even if you have to buy a ticket, things that are open to the community were different than private events. I'm pretty sure they have a similar process like we do, and they go through a temporary use permit very much like this. Okay. Well, it looks like we have a resolution here that we could pass, and I'm in favor as well, subject to the discussions we've heard from the public and from comments we've had from other council persons here If you want to try to go through the resolution to make these changes that are acceptable to us at this time I you know it I Think we could probably do that a couple of comments I do have that I would want to include in this is that I would want to have a full council review of this again next year. I think this is a threshold issue for the community and for you. I just want to have the council have another crack at it and I don't think that's unreasonable because it'll give us a year's worth of experience to see how it's actually working out. how it's actually working out. The noise is an issue. I think we can come to terms on that and how we can deal with this in this resolution. One thing I would throw out as a possibility is that have you considered any type of screening, having camped out quite a bit, a tent fabric doesn't really insulate from noise too well. I'm just wondering if there's something that you could do at your site to screen from the neighbors, both from Enclave, Chamini, Deerbrook, trees or something to deaden that, or at least reduce the sound. I don't know if we can include that as a condition in there, but it's something that I would certainly like to throw out for you to consider. We built the berm on the front edge of that. If you've walked up in a situation, the berm was actually built in specifically to address that going up the hill toward enclave. Going across directly adjacent to that particular site is actually a set of aspen trees in order to get down to timbers, down to the left at a 45 degree angle, and then the other angle faces straight to the hotel. We have, from a dress point of view, we will be adding some more trees into that process, but to be frank, we don't have in our, we haven't budgeted to create a sound wall per se. And nor would it be particularly conducive, I think, to the look of the environment, given A, it's an annual temporary use permit, B, I think, to the look of the environment, given A, it's an annual temporary use permit, B, I don't know how long I'm gonna have that space anyway, because it could be that if, when it changes ownership, someone's gonna build something in the next April, I don't know. Now, what's the pleasure of counsel, you could either. Look at Dean. What's there? I've got one more question. What happens if there are complaints? How is that dealt with? I don't like my computer was working and I didn't really look closely at the resolution. But if there are complaints, what happens? I can pull it up. The recommendation of the Planning Commission came around that conditions for modification or revocation of the temporary use permit. The town has an interest in resolving any complaints arising from outdoor special events. Accordingly should the town receive any complaint arising from the applicant's operation. The town shall immediately transmit such complaint to the application, the applicant for resolution. Failure by the applicant to adequately resolve any such kind of complaints. Shall we cause for the modification, suspension, and revocation of this permit by the town manager? So I don't think it's exactly like Mike Interpretty did that. They're going to call him at midnight. But if he gets the call, he's going to call, it's going to be immediately transmitted to management. Well, the problem is, let me tell you the problem with that. If the problem is, the event's over. So they can't rectify the complaint while at the time they need to rectify it when the event's on. Well, that's why if you took the next step and you created some additional standards. That's what I'm saying. No amplified sound before and after is permitted. Then you have some more black and white standards. Okay, go through the resolution because there's lots of kind of choices. This or that within the text that's been drafted. So as we make those choices, maybe we resolve a lot of these what ifs. It was hopefully set up so you did, like you said Jason, provide you with options or if you need more clarification or you'd like more clarification, the council may do so. But I sort of wanted to give you what any commissions take on was, what the applicant was proposing and then to see if Council has further modification of those particular issues. If I'm my proposed to make an aside adjustment then. If Planning Commission said 6.30, 6.30 for us was to start to move food in and out, not to do any building what have you, right? And if it was no amplification of music after 10 o'clock, if that's what, it took to get this thing to happen this year. And I operate this year and then we prove our point and we look at it for the next year. Then I'll do that too if we can run through to midnight. In our cleanup process, not debilding tents and stuff like that, where we're able just to remove the plateware and food, stuff and what have you. If that would make this work for this year, then I'll change the resolution to go to that process where it's 6.30 in the morning so I can set up a breakfast, it's midnight so I can close down for dinner. Effectively the event would probably close at 11 o'clock, no amplified music after 10 o'clock, down and dust would move on. So we'd like to, so that sounds like a good resolution. So do we have a motion to approve the resolution? Well, no, we have a lot of choices. Well, I know, but do we not improve in the making of you? Wait a minute. Wait a minute. We're going to be here till midnight going through this line by line. Yep. So, but, let me just finish. Why can't we simply redo the resolution incorporating the changes that we recommended that he's accepted? And you go forward to my own start bookie because you know you're going to have it. And then, and I think we ought to let the full council look at it too. But going through it line by line now, when you know you're going to have the ability to do it. I don't know. What do you have ten items that we have to make a choice this or that on? Some of them are just standard conditions that we have in all either temporary use permits or annual. Again the real you know crux of the matter seems to be duration but it seems like you're comfortable with issuing a 12 minute 12-month permit. Yes. One hours of operation and then further definition of what can occur between say 630 and 9 AM, what can happen between 9 and 10 PM, and then what can happen after 10 PM in terms of hours of authorization. Yes, I mean I think you just need to decide with, I think you could probably get through this, in terms of the key issues in 15 minutes or so, but it's what your plan is. I think Fred, we should either continue it, or you come while through. Hewson's to be amenable to making the changes to conform with the noise and the 10 issues. So why don't we just start working on it? So we're looking at page 55 of our packet. Line 46, line 46 is the first decision or has not. So I would circle has. Line 49 number two, the proposal does or does not conflict with the municipal code. It does not. It does not. The proposal does. It does not conflict. Correct. It does not conflict. Yeah. Right. That is the positive. The proposal does comply with it does comply. It does not conflict. Okay. Number line 52 number three, proposed temporary use application does does not Equally address or you could restate that if you agree adequately addresses. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. That's that. Yes. Added quickly addresses. Page 56 line 54 the proposed temporary use does does not comply The next one line 58 under section 2 under action. In accordance with the finding stated in section 1 of this resolution, town council hereby approves or denies. Approves. Approves. Approves. Okay. Now we're getting down to the conditions. The print, the annual temporary reuse permit. Is that approved? Yes, approved. Okay, now we're getting down to the conditions. The really quick comment on the one 68. Okay. It just says General, the statement starts with shadow be responsible. That would be applicant, shadow be responsible. Yep. Add applicant. That would be applicant Shelby response. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. What change are you put the word applicant in before the show? Correct. Oh. Okay. Deeration. Bob is this where we put in that it comes back to council for re-assist late. Are you comfortable with issuing a permit safe from January 1st, 2012 or seasonal? 31st, 2000. You mentioned that there was some concern about that, but I didn't note that in any of the letters or in staff comments or anything. Was that significant or it was? No, not really. The only one that we've sort of issue on a yearly basis, 12 month period, are the balloon frites. Well, he does need this. You're not going to need the need for October. I know that that's for the case. I would hope that we could then say, for example, do a, a Winter Olympics type situation on that situation in December. You are absolutely. You are a three year. Yes, please. I'm comfortable with 12 months. That's fine. So we're going to get further from period June 1 through. I think we want to approve it before next summer. We want to approve it right now. June and I mean, but we want to create a checkpoint prior to next summer. Right. We're going to approve it from June 1st, 2012, today, in 30th, 2013. May 21st, today. 12 months from today. Okay, 12 months from today. Yes. How many? Okay, here we go. How is the operation? This is where it's going to take some. So let's smithing. So first in terms of operations, is that 7 a.m. to 12 o'clock midnight? Right. And I was that adequate. And I would strike the with two hours for take down. And like, but we heard he would say that 630 is a sense ought to get breakfast set up. In essence, the planning was said 630 to 11. If we had 630 to 12 considering it's not a construction process but rather the setup and take down of our event, and then any construction process not in that time, I could do construction between 9 and the morning till 6 of 9. If if you wanted to do that I've got an issue with construction. Well, why don't we say six thirty the midnight overall with noise generating activity within the hours of? Well, let's X and 10 p.m. Seven and ten, I know amplified music, is that what you say? Let's make it a separate, let's make that a separate statement on the noise. I'd just like to address the setup and take down and have that be one item. So you're okay with going with seven days a week from 6.30 to midnight. Correct. And strike with two hours before including it, but just leave it including setup and take down. Right. Okay, so we're striking with two hours and just put in including Seven days a week from 7 a.m. to midnight 6.30 a.m. to midnight right Excuse me, including set up and take down right so we're striking with two hours beforehand and afterwards So we're striking that and that's the that's the plan. Okay. Okay. So, and then that's sure they did. They did. They did. I know it's appropriate for me to get on the back. No, because you're not on the record. I know last time. I'm on the microphone. And Mayor, I just want to let you know that we've only got 20 minutes left on our four hour tape in here. So we need either be done by 20 minutes or stop putting a new tape in. Okay. We always put a new tape. Yeah. I just, but we need time to do that as well. Yeah, well, we'll get through this. We still have stuff on our agenda that we have to deal with tonight. So, 11 o'clock or 12? 12. Okay. 12. Okay, that's why we're going to ratchet it from the next going to create a statement about hand-procation and station. Oh, I have to. So, well, no, that's next. I still want to discuss this one section first, because you mentioned that you need to be able to set up and take down the tent in a week-putter restriction. No, no, no. No. No, set up and take down the tent. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No. No. No, no. No. No, no. No nine and six. You probably want to put that in Section G, which is talks about temporary structures. Okay. That they have three days prior to an event and three days after an event to actually put the tents up or take them down and you would want to put that time frame in that section. Yeah, because that would give you the opportunity if you have a breakfast that you can do it the day before and do it from nine to six, and conversely after a night event that you can do it the day before and do it from 9 to 6, conversely after a night event that you can do it the next morning. And that solves a lot of issues that I've had with this application. So we'll do that down on G. Yes. Okay. Back to D, though, would you want to then insert a sentence that said no amplified sound? And again, sound could be a lot of different things. Let's finish with sight site we do with hours of operation that's what we're talking about that you were hours of operation we're limiting the activity within the hours of operation we amplify music or I'm sorry well that that's back to D okay are we are we done with D on the hours of operation do we want to add a separate music I think you're on the separate for the second sentence with N.D. Drankin, you're inserting a sentence. Which says, okay. No amplified sound from 10 o'clock PM to, after, no, no, I don't want any more. After 10 PM. A lot before, before when? Or before, it's fair enough to. Okay, so 10 o'clock PM to the after 10 PM before 8 am correct. Okay, Bob, did you get that? Yes? Would you read that back to us? Make sure we're all hours of operation seven days a week from 6.30 a.m. to midnight including setup and take down. No amplified sounds before 8 a.m. or after 10 p.m. Right. That sounds good. Does that work with you guys? It's fine. It's fine. Again, again, because I keep coming back to what Steve said. And I think you're right. I mean, I think there is a distinction between Jazz Aspen and Saturday night, Thursday night concerts and a private party. There just is. And it seems to me there's got to be a standard, a decibel standard that says for a private party, you know, in a tent, or there's got to be some, some decibel standard that is adequate, allows them to produce adequate sound, but isn't overbearing. And I'd like to find out what that is. And I'm sorry if it holds up the resolution, but I think it's a decent, it's something important to put in here. How about if we add something that says, and maybe it's already in there, that it says, it shall be in compliance with the noise regulations in effect at the time of the event, and then it's up to us to ask staff to bring forward consideration of revised noise ordinance for updated noise regulations. Has that something you can do? Is it retroactive? I mean, can you ask him to apply for something that doesn't exist? Yeah, you can say that this shall be. You already do. Shabbian compliance with noise regulations of the Times No Mass in effect at the time of the event. The event. Okay. Okay. I'm happy with that. John, what do you think? I think that indicates a bias that you're prejudging some future ordinance that you're bringing to be by putting a condition on it in this. That's a good point. Say good, John. I'm sorry. I think you're prejudging a noise ordinance as yet to be deliberated by putting it as a condition in this resolution? Well, it could refer to the noise regulations that are in effect right now. Okay. But it doesn't address that. That doesn't do it. That doesn't give us any standard. Right. Rock music, if we saw if whoever should choose to change that, it would be biased. How do you follow it? John, do you have a suggestion on how to get to where we're? Pick the times you want music to be allowed and pick the times you don't want music to be allowed. That's the cleanest. We've done that. We've done that. The issue is how loud can it be? When it's in operation? That's the issue. I think you'll get into a debate about that in this, who gave us this, in the packet, there's a couple of DB thresholds. On page 80 of your packet. And you would get it. And again, I pulled this out of the Aspen Times, I believe, when noise became an issue. And it's hard to sort of, where do you fall within? Outdoors, no people are traffic, 20 decibels. Rock music at a concert, 110 decibels. So I think it's cleaner to, if we just, like John said, take a time when you can play music. It needs to be at a reasonable level, otherwise we will receive complaints. And if we can go on to find a reasonable level. I had a problem with that. Who the hell determines what's reasonable? I mean, if a guy is sitting in his condominium and he's hearing music and he complains and he says, this is too loud, why is he restable or unreasonable by the same token? How are these guys protected? If people are complaining and they're saying, look at this is normal for dinner dance or something like that. But currently we don't regulate the noise coming out of base camp. Who's coming out of base camp? That's a bar in the church. I mean, I understand that, but that's open to the public. This is a private endeavor. Well, I think this is- So what do you suggest for a decibel? I suggest there must be some standard somewhere that says for dinner theater or something like that. A reasonable decibel level is X. I mean there must be, you didn't put decibel limitations on the chapel bells. We had to, that was a discussion at the, when the champ called that, but I really think what we need to do is something outside of this discussion to come up with something that is measurable and enforceable. I don't think we can do it in this application. I agree. You know, so I think we should just leave the hours of operation with the music. Then as a counsel, we can come back and revisit that issue. But he said we're prejudicing ourselves. Only if we put something in here to that effect. But how do we control them? Well, by passing an ordinance, it applies to everyone. And you have the safeguard of if we receive complaints, we have built in the right to rescind this permit. And so it's a necessary purpose to operate within reasonable thresholds and not generate complaints. They're going to make us want to rescind the permit. We have discusses in the very research. It's a very difficult subject in determining the activity and how you measure it and how you enforce it. So I would suggest that we could just go forward with the hours of music. And then we can grapple that as a village-wide issue later on. Don't misunderstand what I said. I said if you put it in here that it's a future noise ordinance that there is applicable to them, then I think you pre-judge and biased yourselves for that ordinance. If separate from this, you take up a noise ordinance. They are bound by this by Section 3B, line 68. It's actually on line 7. It's applicant is responsible for full and complete compliance with all applicable federal, state, and local laws and Regulations in the production and the management so it's up though to simply leave it out of here It's up to us to come up with a noise ordinance Yes, you chose choose to do that. Yes, okay, okay Moving on So we are we okay with D? I think we're good on D. Okay, E site capacity. We haven't discussed this and your request is a thousand attendees and staff and planning commission was 500. No, I just put a number out there if there was, you know, if you felt that there was a plan in commission recommendation. On the planning commission recommendation. Okay. I'm very, very good planning commission recommendation. What is your request, the thousand? Yes. And where it comes from is the like, is it likely not? But a thousand person cocktail party in an 8100 square foot tent is possible. That's where the number comes from. Okay, given that restriction, what is the optimal size of a tent to hold a thousand staff and attendees? Underception, 80 by 104. Because my concern with having too large of a ten, that was one of the comments we've had is that the size in height of the ten could be an issue. And if we were to limit this maximum size of a ten to 80 by 104, would that be acceptable to put in this language or make it a 90 by 110 or something like that to give you some wiggle room. 90 by 110 is fine. I'll tell you the largest part of the market. That's a huge tent. Yeah, well I wouldn't take a backpacking with me up to the bells but you know. That's fine. I'll take about 100 my friends. Again we're trying to just work to get the sales go to the best we can. I mean the chance of us getting that actually would be more a citywide scenario that would help other processes than just us. Right. Just to make a curiosity, what would the height of a tent that's large B? Yeah. 20 feet. The height probably depends, clear span or center. I mean, there's so many different things that you can do. I would guess it would probably be the most about 20 feet. It's significantly shorter than what was part of the PUD than it was originally. There's a business problem with limiting it to exact dimensions because they may get one 10 in June. And they think, okay, we're great. It's 90 feet feet it's 104 whatever they your parameter and then they come back in July somebody's else has already booked that ten and they say well we've got a one ten by one twenty that'll fit on the site but and you're you're saying well that ten doesn't work because you don't have so I mean and well you know the height issue the bigger issue relative to this structure well as you't the issue, the bigger issue relative to the structure? Well, you know, the size of the site as well, you know, that's it. In the size of it. The tent is going to be there more than a couple of days. Right. So I mean, what's the big deal? Well, I just don't like the idea of a object or a structure of this going lot-lined, a lot-lined.. I mean it's the sir for three days. I mean what's that going to do? It's not even close. Lined a lot line. John it's just a prepared area within the lot that is the confine. The lot is much bigger than a lot lines 22,000 square feet based on what was said before. We're talking about a 9,000 square feet structure within 22,000 square feet. So it's one third of the space. Right. So I'm trying to keep that down to a more reasonable side. What is the so-and-fee? Well, side improvements are the next item. So this is site capacity 140 by 160 feet with the maximum capacity of 1,000 attendees. Is that where we all are on that one? Okay. Okay. Understand that the attendees' number includes staff. So your- It's total. He's got a number that he knows he needs to handle X number of patrons. Okay. Moving on. Site improvement. Develop a turnout drop-off. Pick up area in Wood Road showing us a- or no improvements or U-turns permitted on Wood Road. Why- That's on line 85. I don't quite understand the. They proposed a growing, curving area where you could get to the side of wood road to unload people. Planning commission didn't feel that was safe, did not want that improvement, did not want U-turns permitted on wood road. At that point, they agreed that they would, unless they have an event big enough to use, a lot of sea which would require a crossing guard. That was that threshold that all arrivals would take place in the Portaca share for the viceroy and they would proceed up to the tent that way. Via whatever internal transportation conveyance they wanted to use. And after a long discussion with the planning mission, it was decided because that is known as Quay-Lude Corner. It wasn't a safe place for a pullover or U-turns. I think some of the snowmass lodging was a little testified of that name, right? Anything that I would suggest you is that we would obviously take vehicles from the hotel and take it into the site. Right? Not as, and then turn around with insight, come back out. There's two reasons for that. One is obviously we're going to get equipment and whatever. The second part of the process is under 88 regulations. I'll go beyond and get people in and out of there. And the planning commission recognized that in condition 2 under F. Link the hotel in the lawn area with the well-to-one graded pedestrian walkway using appropriate materials and provide gated access to wood road for service vehicles only, which is what they would be operating, which is I don't know the name for your, the Rouge. The Rouge, yes. Right, although in the summertime it might be something different, but they will be able, because that is street legal, they will be able to operate that on wood road. They would not, but they didn't want them to make eunucherns there. They want them to use the gated access, but they don't want to guess. So that's why the planning commission recommendation in number two is addresses it. So these were three subsections on site improvements that the Planning Commission, so the Planning Commission recommendation on one and two sounded good to me. I agree. I'm okay with that. Okay. Okay. And then so number two. Number three. That's just this. So we're accepting the planning commission recommendations of both one and two. Right. And three. And three. And three. Okay. And we're going to delete all the parentheses that say PC recommendation PC recommendations. Yeah, so I'll clean that up. Okay. It's just so you know what it was when you're working through, right? Okay, temporary structures, anything there? We were going to add 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. for any construction or staging of activities. Oh, right, right, right. Absolutely. That sounds good. Yeah. All good structures will take place between 9 p.m. and 6 p.m. and delivery. 9 a.m. Now it's 9 p.m. Now it's 8 p.m. That's getting like a little load. And delivery, load in, load out, should be within that as well. Construction and delivery of the materials or whatever. So you have six days really to do any work for one event. That's fine. Okay. I think you might want to consider in the event that they were to have separate but consecutive events. Some provision in there that would allow them this contemplates for event, it goes up and it comes down. And there is, I mean, this came to me after we've talked with the dining commission. There is a possibility that they have a conference in that's going to have two or three, most just say multiple events within their conference, so they arrive on a Saturday and they use the tent through Tuesday. And then the following following weekend they've got another group. I just think you need to consider some provision for consecutive events rather than this and I don't know the language but. We may need to take a break here to change tapes. But do you want to give me a heads up when we're ready to do that. And we can just five minutes. We need to do it now. We want to do it now. Can we take a quick five minute break? Thank you. It's a quick point, John. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the you I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the you you I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the you I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the you I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the you you you We're back. Hey you. We're back on those things are not cheap. Okay, let's get moving. We're on temporary structures and we got that resolved with the 9 AM to 6 PM. All right. Okay. Next page on page 57 line 105. H is at police because it looks like P.o. L. L. C. Police. U L I C. E. But double L. It looks like a double. It's a night. Okay. It's not. It's not. We got a lot more to worry about. No, I like to have things spelled correctly. The war. It's gotta be correct. Okay, nothing there. A council? Excuse me, but on temporary structures, do we want to have sort of a G1? Should there be like temporary? I mean, conservative? Oh, we were in a place. Facilities may remain in place. Should there be consecutive events? Yeah, that's right. Thank you. Or not more than or a maximum of X number of days. So, you couldn't have like 10 back to backs, but. So, you have the event. You have three days to break it down. Then you have a day in between and then three days to set up and then the event. So that's for events within seven days of each other? That's what I was thinking. So two events, would that be, or I guess you could have three events in that time period, but so you could have as many as you could possibly use the tap for. Right, so you're talking about the expense of constructing and deconstructing. If you had two consecutive events within seven days of each other, technically, he would have to take this down within three days, and then he could construct it a day later. So is it at a minimum of seven days and at the most two consecutive events within nine days, ten days? I mean, what makes your... I mean, if we had nine days, something like that, because I mean, I haven't thought that process through. I think actually Mr. Dress has done a good job reading that out because it's possible you could have a waves of business that have a gap between them that you would save a lot of money by not having to deconstruct until you then make it much more practical and not really hurting you the processes. Because obviously the intent would be there but there would be no time to have any. If it was nine days, I think there you go. Okay, nine consecutive days. We have a comment. Microphone please. That's my first fan. I'd say recommend you go out of the other way that if you have two scheduled events, you weigh the deconstruction of the tent. Or if you have consecutive events scheduled, you would weigh that. You don't want to try and guess at how much business is going to happen in nine days. You could write 12 scenarios, go the other way out. What brilliant. Okay. Did you get that Bob? We're consecutive. We're consecutive events. Yeah, or you can say in OK shell attempt be up for the next time. Yeah, or you can say in OK shell attempt mention that then, next time, when will you require me to apply for the test? Yeah, or you could say, in OK shell attempt, be up for more than two weeks. That's what I was thinking about that 14 days. Well, you wouldn't want to say that necessarily. I think the second bench was, for example, not that it happened, but NCH was a program we had in June. It was fall back to back events. It was 1 was 1500 people. That was over four weeks. Now, if you were able to get through because not having a construction because the tent happened to be up for four weeks, it wouldn't be really inconveniencing anybody to have that process of their tent up. It would be just saving the event organizer, the up-down, up-down four times, which we imagine. If you didn't wrap it out. Yeah, right. Right. So because you wouldn't have any noise of the ins and outs and what have you, I think it's the consecutive events we're going to be occurring within days. Right. That seems good. Okay. What do you got there, Bob? For consecutive events occurring within nine days of each other, the breakdown requirement is waived. Shall be waived. Okay. He's great. On anything else on page 57. Let's see. Got parking and traffic and. Yeah. Number two. Number two. Number two. Number two. Number two. Number two. Number two. Number two. Number two. Changing it to something A certified traffic officer shall assist pedestrian crossings to and from LaTse when LaTse is used. That's done. Great. Good. All right. Let me park this. That's already in our rules on number three though. There's no parking stuff in loud and roadways. That's redundant. Sanitation and trash. You're okay with that? Yes. Food and beverage on the next page 58 line 155. According to it with the Aspen Picking Environmental Health Department. We have a summary, John. The next page 58 line 155. According to it with the Aspen Picking Environmental Health Department, is that pretty standard in any food? Yes, there is. Okay. The only thing up for addition is in 193. Well, let's just, I just want to move, make sure we'll get down there. Lighting, cables. And then you talk about the snow removal, because if you decide to use it in the winter, you'd have an issue with snow removals at something we need to be concerned with, because they're going to have to plow that in snow storage You'll have building and the fire marshal will be concerned about any snow on the tent. Okay, so that goes back to the Applying with regulations Okay Then line 193, this is where we... The Pean Commission's recommendation is that the permit should be renewed by them and then with recommendations forwarded to us for final approval and that's what we ought to do. Yep. You okay with that, Jason? Yeah, it comes back to council. So that's saying planning commission or does it come back to council? Makes sense to come back to council. Yeah, well, it's going to be a planning commission and then request it both. Planning commission said it would review by them and then recommended same process that we're here with. Two steps. What was the discussion around that? I just, to me, that seems excessive. Yeah, maybe just coming back to council? Or... No, I'd like to see the Planning Commission review it first. Again, that's good. Just like they've done now. I can tell you that Planning Commission carried a lot of heavy water on this for you and our meeting. Yeah, damn right. Last month, and they felt very strongly about seeing it, why they did. They actually tried to get it so that they could have it and you wouldn't get it. Staff didn't allow that. So it's up to you obviously. I think both, I'm fine with. I'm fine with their recommendation. I'm sorry, I modified that to Shelby reviewed by. What? I'll just make a slide revision the ATU P renewal. Shall be should. Right. Right. Just thinking about that renewal process is up to the applicant to apply for a renewal. This will be on Hughes, Tickler, David's Tickler, and for the end of the season knowing that it expires on May 21st. They'll want to know. Yeah, you'll want to get into that process so that you can start. At least we have time for planning. We'll do something in my hand. For renewal, it's going to be a lot less than... Yeah. Okay. Second phone round. We did the same thing for the other IQV. Correct. Okay, so we're good with that. And then a number three I thought I just put operating guidelines as amended. And I'll modify those to reflect what you're approving in this resolution. And same with the site plan, I'll have an X through that little turnout. And say not approved. Right. So we're clear on what we're approving and all consistent. approve. Right. So we're clear on what we're approving and consistent. Okay, and then item four is actually continued on page 59. It goes to an or. So eliminate the delete the or and number one online. Right. Okay. Does it lead everything up? Bleed or everything after? Okay. What? Oh, okay. Under this section, I just have a suggestion that you consider. And that is that we are concerned about the specific, this is an annual global permit. We are concerned about the dynamics of each and every event. And I would just, this is sort of like what you have to go through with the police and the fire to make sure, obviously you've already prepared a summary of that event. And if you could give the Planning Department notice, I'm talking about a one-page summary. We're having a wedding 400 guests music to, you know, just put my bullet under the permit. Make that a condition of this. That way what you're doing with the police and fire planning is a layer of two. The time frame in advance, will you recommend that? I would say 10 to 14 days would be enough. That's fine. So is that go, just give them a be up? You want to add that is, where do you want to add that, John? Police, I would add that under A. I mean for, I would make the first part of it A and then B would be in further and so of this town's interest, the applicant agrees to provide a summary to the planning department of each and every event that will be staged pursuant to this annual attempt to use permit. And I'll get a copy of that. You'll get that. Thank you. So just to put them to perspective, a bit like one of the, like a tent applications would normally be administered, we dealt with. In this case, we're just advising you what that is. Exactly. It's a courtesy notice, as really all it is. That way, you know, he doesn't have the police coming up and going, look, they're doing this, how can they do this under this permit? And he's already got the information. Because you're doing it with them anyway. I'm not asking really for any extra effort, but. Okay. Let's move to approve the amended. Well, you did mention that this would be available to other organizations or to other groups. Do we need to make that as part of this condition? You know, that's kind of a self-defeating condition because if no public or other group, or just say the wood run place wants to have a big annual party there or something, and it doesn't work or it doesn't cost, you're making a condition that he has to answer to, and it's difficult to say why they didn't do it or they did do it. And so the representations there, if you hear complaints, you're gonna review this in a year. Okay. I think the other point is to, I mean, it's interesting to try and have this set up, but we've become police of that of the external process anyway. because either way we're going to respond for the permit. So we've got to make sure that whoever those people are coming on board can comply with the same rules, so on and so forth. Because you know, in the end result, whether it was ABC company or me, I'm going to weather. I'm going to weather wrath. Great. Okay. Very good. Many other changes, anything Bob, that you want to? Further public comment? Any further public comment? Could you get a microphone please? About that notification. If maybe people who live around the area were told like the date of an event and maybe given that as well. If I, because sometimes when the complaint that I've happened had in the past had been like I Drive home. I don't know that there's gonna be a part of your music going on But then I get home and all of a sudden I had like a nice dinner plan You know what I mean like it yeah, you'd stay out for a couple extra hours if you knew they were having something Exactly something like that so if we could get their location to then the whole thing might be how we handle that That does not need to be in this resolution No, not all you need to do is under the public notice laws you just give us your name Oh, and anytime will email it to you it facts it to you You can do the same thing with any town agenda any public document that's in our possession if you put put your name on a Listen, say I want to be notified so if you contact Bob Nevin's in the planning department every time he gets that summary event, he'll email it to you. Great. Thanks. That worked. Yeah, perfect. It is on you to sign up for that though. We don't, you know, it's not automatic. So any other public comment? I will now just keep it open in case the vote doesn't pass. OK. There's a tabling, there's reconsideration, whatever happens. Thank you for keeping me on point. Okay, any other further changes to this? Guys, satisfied with this? No, we appreciate the opportunity to just add another dimension to the town. And it's a great option for us and I think for all of us in the end result and I understand completely the viewpoint that the council has taken. Thank you. Okay then can I accept at this point a motion to approve? So I have approval by Fred, second by Jason. Any further discussion Bob? And may I modify this then if this is so such the case introduced red and a through-des amended? No. No. In conditions? They work through the drafting process. Yes. It's only amended after emotion. So this will be introduced red and approved with conditions by the town council upon a motion by. And then under tennis snowmast village, would you put in my name rather than? Correct. Yeah. No? Yes. OK. Sounds good. All in favor? All right. All right. It's approved unanimously. Sorry to take so long to get this through, but I'm glad we did it tonight so you can go out. Thank you guys. Thank you guys. Really appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Thank you very much. All right, moving on. Managers report. I'm going to make this quick. You've got some additional information about Holy Cross enhancement fund that you asked for. We're also gonna be sitting down with them and talking a little bit more about the discussion we had with the strategic plan. You also see that strategic plan in this and what we'll continue to do is include that matrix in the town managers report. Just a second, Russ. Could you guys please have a good night, guys. Outside, outside, outside. I'll talk outside. I do have business. We're still on. Thank you. Okay, Russ. Also, I forward you a letter from David Peckler with the UOTC position. We've tried to clarify that we have a primary position, which is the long-term solution, if there would be a lack of an opportunity or lack of an interest in that long term, then we have the backup solution. So take a look at that. We'd like to get that out this week. Finally, a opportunity came up. You would see this in the budget update on June 4th to basically save some money on asphalt. As you know, Joe Caffey keeps a very detailed five year replacement budget. One of those things he had budgeted in 2013 was paving. Brush Creek site and Palisade and also doing an asphalt project at Mountain View with an opportunity by combining with our contractor for roads. He can save about $42,000 for both. So again, Monty's budgeted the thing that you would see differently would be a higher expenditure in this year. And a lower expenditure next year with the net savings of about 42K. I hate to save money. Okay. Money well saved. That's all I got. Well, actually, let's back up to the fully-discorded community enhancement fund. Yes. So where do we go forward with this? Because we asked you to take a look and see what we could do with that. Yeah, you basically got a number of criteria there for this. And again, what we were discussing was could we use this on an ongoing basis for environmental projects which could be a spin on that second criteria and so I think that involves a little bit of discussion with Holy Cross to see if they could get their arms around that. So it looks like we have some predictability. You got money there. So it looks like it's something that we could use towards energy conservation projects. I think, you know, that's what we were hoping that we could do that. I think we should perhaps test this back to our environmental advisory board and have them take a look at that. And it's being requested here. Staff is proposing to meet with Holy Cross to make sure that they're on board with the idea of us using it in the way that we're suggesting we want to use it. And then we'll hear back from staff that we got a yesterday or some kind of suggestion. And that's part of the package at the end of the day to get to the goal you articulated. I think that's a great first step. Okay. at the end of the day to get to the goal you articulated. I think that's a great first step. Okay, I'll next move. And the great thing is we have enough of a balance built up already that we can, even if we just took the annual generation, annual revenues that are coming out of this, we still have $550,000 already in the bank to do significant other projects that are already out there. Yeah, you could use a give 500 to the Drowcy purchase and give all the residents a tax rebate. Next item. Are we getting into silly hour here? Oh, I just might not feel as duped. I just might not feel as duped. That's all I had. Okay. Gender for the next council meeting. Okay. We have a financial update. And then jazz is coming back. Anything that we need to know? Well, you'll get an audit of their books, and you'll probably also have representatives from the marketing board here. You'll also hear about a potential partnership between them and our group sales function. OK. And item 9, approval of meeting minutes Okay. Item 9, Approval of Meeting Minutes for April 16, 2012. Move. I have a motion by Fred. Second by Jason. I have a couple of changes. Nothing of significance. I will pass them on to Rhonda. All in favor? Aye. I. Approved. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Approved. Council comments, committee reports, calendars. We have EOTC on the sub-hound seventh. Here at our council chambers will be hosting. It starts at four o'clock. Yes. And it will be televised. Pardon me? It will be televised Pardon me it will be televised wonderful and It's gonna last until How long is it scheduled for what's what's on the agenda for that besides the obvious? You know, we have the obvious I don't want to speculate others may Have other things for the agenda, but I think everybody's an agreement that the free bus service should be front-center or actually gonna get to talk about it I have other things for the agenda, but I think everybody's in agreement that the Free bus service should be front-center. We're actually going to get to talk about it. So the elk are the highway 2 underpass at the ABC that's not coming as part of this. There's a need Okay, any council comments committee reports Fred. I think Jason you got anything Rhonda. Yes, since this is the last town council meeting before town cleanup day, I just wanted to put a plug in for everyone out there that town cleanup day is on Friday, June 1st. You meet at 9 a.m. at the rec center. Barbecue starts at noon. Rotary would be, will be flippin' burgers. We'll have music and it's gonna be a gorgeous day. So please come join us. Well, You got the long range forecast going around. You bet. After last year, you bet. So what day of the week is it? Friday, June 1st. So that's a week from this Friday. Yes, sir. Great. I'd like to see all the town people show up for a cleanup. Yeah, be good. I'll try to be there. All right, anything else? Nope, okay. I'm adjourned. Got to move to adjourn by Fred, second by Jason Allenfavor. All right. All right. Mm-hmm. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. you