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Thank you. The air says we're ready to roll. I'd like to call to order the Stomach Village Town Council for Tuesday, February 19, 2013. First item, please round to his roll call. Mayor Boynow. Here. Butler. Gavre. Here. Okay. Here. Jacobson. Here. Thank you. Next item is for public not a agenda items. Are there anybody standing at the public? Please step forward to the microphone. State your name for the record and you've got five whole minutes. Hey everyone. I'm Heather West. I'm the director of Little Red School House here in the village. I'm coming to you today in part to say thank you for our grant donation that we received from you guys for 2013 and in part to ask for more money from you. In years past we have always received basically a grant from you guys in the amount of $5,000 that we've then used to pay for educational field trips during the spring, summer, and fall months for our kiddos. We rent out a private shuttle from the town and then are able to take that around to the Picking County Library, to Asus, Rock, Bottom Ranch, all different areas in our valley, just to expand and incorporate some lessons that we're doing in the classroom out into the real world for them. This year I just found out that we did not receive the transportation portion of our grant. So thus it'll be cutting out $5,000 out of our budget that we've always used to expand on the curriculum for these kids. So therefore decreasing the value of our curriculum right before these kiddos move on to kindergarten. So I'm basically just here asking you guys, I don't know what would be best whether a donation that we can then use for the transportation or an in kind. Honestly, I don't know how it might work best, but I'm asking you to consider a $5,000 donation so that we can continue on with these field trips for the kids in the summer. We don't want the educational experience to be lost with the stuff that we have done in the classroom and we do want it to continue on and then to have the best possible experience before they do move on to kindergarten. Thank you, Heather. Can I just ask a question of clarification? All 5,000 of that was that performed entirely by our transportation department. Correct. Wasn't any other. No, that's just the fees that it cost us to rent out the shuttle. The shuttle fees went up to $110 an hour last year and we have to rent it out for a minimum of three hours. So therefore it's at least $3.3350 every time we take the shuttle somewhere. So yeah, we did use all of that on. Do you remember what we did? I mean, I don't have that inpatient funding. How much did we grant to you guys this year? This year, they did. They granted us, we're getting ready to undertake a new playground project and redoing one of our playgrounds. So they granted us $2,000 to go towards the playground project and then also $2,000 to go towards the playground project, and then also $2,000 to go towards kindergarten readiness materials. So new reading, writing, math materials, all of that. Mayor? Yes, ma'am. I'm not sure that the citizen grant review board understood the $5,000 because we didn't discuss that. They thought it was for additional transportation. So they wanted to fund projects versus transportation. So I don't think that the citizen grant review board was aware of that was something that was given and then taken back away. Gotcha. To pay for Mr. Peckler's service. Gotcha. That isn't expense, but Councilor. I'm very displeased. Where are you? Just to clarify a little, I'm unclear. There was 5,000 you typically coming from the town in one of these forms as a... Correct. So in the past years, grant cycles that you guys have done, I even printed off letters as far back as 2006, 2009, showing that we've requested this money in the annual grant cycle and have always been granted that in addition to money for kindergarten, readiness, materials, and such. And we've taken that $5,000 and just paid it directly back to the town each year. I would personally suggest that we try to look at direct staff to look into this to see if we can find a way to make this work, to allow that transportation number to function. Even if it's not the 5,000, whatever you guys feel you could do would be helpful for us. I mean, there's a couple ways to skin this gas. First, can you confirm, Rhonda, that this is something we've done in the past, about 5K? Good information you have. Yeah. OK. Not right this side Good the information you have. Yeah. OK. Not right this side. Right in a second. OK. I think it's something we can come back to you. And there's a couple ways. Is it necessary to cut them a check for 5,000 and then have them cut us a check for 5,000? You could also just potentially direct the transportation department to wave it. Now there is a real cost to this and there might be a budget adjustment that would be the outcome of this versus cutting a check to them and then to us. John Dresser. Mr. Mayor and Council the wave the non-agenda public forum here really works is people come to you with concerns and then you decide as a council you want to have this as an agenda item to discuss or we don't or you want staff to hand litter something like that but I do think this is something that you need a lot of background and information on in terms of the budget and also as Russ and Rhonda were alluding to the history. This in-kind service grant, whatever you want to call it. And I think you're probably well served by having this discussion. Yeah, my desire really would be the direct staff to look into this, to come back to us at a very near time if we can orchestrate something to help the kids of the community move around. I would look at it, but we have a council to look at this and think about this. Yeah, I don't know the background. I don't know the history. You know, so bring us up to speed and. We'll the council to bring this back to you. The adjacent also, you know, again, financial impact on it. I mean, $5,000 is not all the money in the world, but it's still $5,000. Oh, yeah, so it's gotta be paid for somehow. Yeah, it is. It's gotta come out of somewhere. It's a real cost. So yeah, well, not that I want to make a, no, understand. The man today that we do or don't do something, but yes, let's look at something like that on Okay, Heather. Great, thank you guys, I appreciate it. Thank you. Any other non-agenda items? Hearing none, I'd like to move on to council updates. I'll start off with, I'd like to declare some thanks to our police department and transportation department over this last weekend, president's weekend. We've had a number of folks in town, vice presidents, first ladies, that kind of stuff. In Sonoma, I asked in Picking County. And I think that our police and the Picking County sheriff and our transportation really had to jump through some hoops to get things done. And I want to extend kudos to everybody because I think it was very well done. I think everybody who comes up, you know, a couple of years of those things really, it moves very smoothly up here. We do things pretty well. So I want to say thank you to all our town staff and even the tourist and to our locals that had to deal with some issues. The other thing I was going to say for this was, it might be good for the Office of the President Vice President to State they're going to some mass village instead of Aspen They might not get as much grief and other press going on a junket Aspen they go to junket to some mass village And you know, he tried very hard not to state anything So anyway, I just wanted to say to that Jason do you have anything? No, thank you Okay I just wanted to say to that Jason do you have anything? No, thank you. Okay. Getting back to other regular comments, we had a raft of meeting last week and things were just moving along down there. I had sent out the council, the packet of information that I had received. And the only reason was to keep you all uprise of what we're talking about. And so I'm going to be doing that consistently now as I get those packets. I'll be pushing them off to everybody here so that they can sort of see it, get an idea, and then they have a concern question. They can get back to me before the meeting. Chris, anything? I'll just note that I saw it in the snowmatch sun here. I got to go to the opening of the Macedon exhibit at the Denver Science Museum. It's pretty awesome. I was there for a good hour and a half with my nine-year-old. We had a good time and I would applaud whatever elements of that exhibit we can get back here into town either as a traveling show or what and I was fantastic. Very good, Fred. In my capacity as a board member of the Nordic Council I can tell you that we have not met but in spite of that they're apparently have taken some action out on the golf course and there are now bags and trash cans for dogs and I can tell you that all doggoers I know are really grateful to the Georgia Council for doing that. Very good. Okay. Moving on, we have item number four, resolution number 15 series 2013 pre-annunciation agreement. This is a consideration of a resolution approving entering into a pre-annunciation agreement with clear W Ranch LLC regarding annexing the real property commonly known as Popish Valley into the town of Smith Village and authorizing the town manager to execute said pre-enixation agreement on behalf of the town of Stomach Village. And I get Mr. Dresser's name on this. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. As you know, we've been going the distance, I guess, with the applicant, with regard to a petition to Annex, the Popish Valley, into the town of Snowmass Village. The Popish Valley is located between Wildcat Ranch, which is part of the town, and Snowmass Creek, which is in the county. It is the parcel, the owners of the prior owners of the Popish Valley are the ones that sold off the majority of the Wildcat Ranch to the developers that developed it and made it into what it is now. So they are considered what's called the fathering parcel. They split off and subdivided the rest of the ranch and kept as Russ would say the most beautiful piece for themselves and They have since sold that and the Entity that has come in ownership there would like to Be part of the town of snowmass village for a variety of reasons. One of them is that it is, in fact, I don't want to say it's in fact part of Wildcat Ranch, but it was part of Wildcat Ranch a long time ago. And there are economies of scale and commonality of interest up there. And one of those being that they are going to request during the land use process that will be accompanying this petition to Annex in to have the same size houses and structures and accessory dwelling units on the property that the other homesteads up at Wildcat Ranch enjoy at this time. So they have, we've gone through some stops and starts, they are going to subdivide the property so they can comply with an old agreement from the 80s between Pitkin County and the town of snowmass village regarding the town of snowmass village areas of influence to allow annexation. That's one of the things that the county was very concerned about and our neighbors in the next valley over were rather concerned about as well. And that old agreement provides that the town would not annex any properties, pass the ridge line that divides the snowmass creek valley with the brush creek valley and by extension the wildcat area. This property actually, that ridge line bisects this property. It goes pretty much right down the middle. And to accomplish that, the owner subdivided the property. And I should say that the part of the ridge line, from the ridge line down to Snowmass Creek is a rather steep area, not really suitable for development. And they have agreed to leave that in the county, so the town will not be on its area of influence. And they are going to put a conservation easement on that for the benefit of Pitkin County. And then they would like to annex the remaining 275 acres into the town of Snowmass Village and enjoy the development rights that all the rest of the properties on in Wildcat Ranch enjoy. They've made a proposal to us. I didn't include every bit of it and the reasons for that are ultimately you will be the judges of the development application. You've been advised in generalities regarding that and that it is well not exactly identical, very nearly identical to what the homesteads and Wildcat Ranch are entitled to now. So the first step in this process is that we would agree the town being we would agree with the applicant in a pre-anxation agreement that this is the scope of what they're proposing and while the town council enjoys the final authority to approve that land use and development plan. The parameters of that are very well developed by virtue of the fact that the Wildcat ranch went through a county approval and a town of snowmass village approval development, you know entitlements and development approval and that truly no stone has been left on term between those and so this property even after Wildcat Ranch was annex has gone through those same processes in terms of analysis of the environmental concerns, the water concerns, the drainage, all those kinds of things with the county already and have received their approval there. And what they're asking for here, I think the big difference you should know is that the town of Snowmass Village within the Wildcat Ranch PUD now allows a much bigger home than what the county does. So that's a major benefit and it's also you have to understand that these are very large parcels of land and the restrictions on them in terms of activity envelopes where they can build what they can't build, how they can operate, are substantial but they're still reasonable. The other interesting part of this one of the one of the stops and starts we had was that the Thomas Snowmass village had agreed in the annexation with Wildcat Ramps that the town would not annex any other properties that utilize the road system of the Wildcat Ramps Association. All those roads are private over there. The town does not maintain them and they are all taken care of by an assessment structure through the association. Once we discovered that, it became clear that the association's desire in this matter was to reunite the ranch because it after was split off. went off and that was their big pitch to the applicant and the ownership entity there and they came to a resolution of that right at the end of 2012 and that's when we got to where we are now. They cleared that hurdle. They will be joining the property will be included in the Wildcat Ranch Association and be governed thereby. The terms of that inclusion into that association are private. I don't believe that they're actually even part of any review standard that you could say what we want to know, what terms you're in on. Suffice to say that you've approved those covenants by virtue of approving the wildcat ranch and that they are going to abide by them as part of their inclusion. So with that, we come to the next step, which is the pre-annexation agreement. And there are just a couple of little things that, when I say little, I mean very little, like the size of the kennels the number of dogs that can be kennel there who can have them these kinds of things they're just a little bit of a change from the PICC in County approvals that were done in this decade and what is allowed at Wildcat Fees of the R approval now if the at the end of the day when the land use review is completed those are approved. They're not a problem and the reason that we are doing rather than approving the pre-annunciation agreement as it stands and rather authorizing the town managers because there could be a little tweak and I don't know if Steve Ferris wants to talk to those issues, but that's the reason that we're preserving the flexibility rather than having the mayor sign it as a result of this resolution. We're preserving the flexibility to have the town manager do it so that this process can move forward. And I will tell you that we are meeting with the applicants and land planners. I don't know if there's going to be an attorney there or not, but several of their consultants tomorrow morning at 930 within the planning department. Understand that this process has taken quite a long time since the entity acquired the property to get to this point. And they haven't really, while they have, had some conceptual ideas about what they want to do in terms of a residence and supporting structures, horse barns, corrals, what have you. They hadn't really gotten very far in that until we got to this point where we're ready to sign and agree to consider the petition for annexation as well as the land use as they've laid it out. So that's about where we are today on Stad. And as you know, we've been negotiating a contract, this contract with the applicant staff has been undertaking that and keeping council advised of the negotiations as we go forward. So I don't think you, Chris, you may be finding this somewhat new and exciting, but I can tell you it's been what a couple of years that we've been meeting periodically and I can't even say regularly and it might even be sporadically with the council to keep them advised of just exactly the process that we've been going through and it has been, it has been a long process and at times fraught with unknown subjects that appear at times. So I didn't know Steve Steve if you had any comments you wanted to make or if you just want to iron those out with the applicant at the administrative level. If you want to come up you can talk if you want to sit you can sit. And with that I would let you know that Leonard Oates is here on behalf of the applicant clear W LLC, clear W Ranch LLC and I'm sure that he would be happy to answer any questions you might have as would I be. Questions from Council on this pre-annetization report in request. One of the things I was questioning when I was reading this was the restricted housing section that we have written in here. It makes comment that for 15,000 square foot home there's a formula that came up with something to the effect of 35.9 full-time employees are necessary, or by formula, whatever, to help run this thing. And they requested, you know, that was prior to the 2011, I guess, change in some of the code there. That did seem, as the letter states, to be kind of larger than maybe realistic. But what happens and that number that we're coming up with with a cash and lieu figure of about what, 90, 94,000, 95,000, is that a right number also? I mean, is that something like, we say we wanna build one employee unit for this somewhere and they're not gonna build it in their place and we're gonna cash and lose? Is that really the right number? Granted, I don't wanna go to this 35, but I think that's something you guys should think about. And, you know. And I can tell you the background from that is that they, and Len Lenny you can step in anytime you want here. Because you do to the microphone, yes. There is an exponent in our formula that reaches a certain point and I'm not a math major, I'm a lawyer. Uh-oh. And I'm not an accountant and I don't play one on TV. So at a certain point, it literally flips the equation upside down because I mean let's face it, a 15,000 square foot home doesn't need 35 full time employees. So it becomes, but it's so rare that it gets there because we don't have homes that big. I mean, the largest ones entitled at this point are 8500 or 8500. Yeah, you'd know better than I would. So, and Steve may be able to explain this planning formula better than myself, but the rationale that was employed by the applicant things that we have to do is to make sure that the original formula better than myself. But the rationale that was employed by the applicant at that point was to use the comparable housing mitigation formula that is applied in PITKIN County. Okay. Because you have one of the questions I've had over years is, you know, we have this formula, but it doesn't seem to represent the amount it would take to build a, if it's just one unit, you know. It seems like we've had a, we've had to build units and it's much more than that. Well, the other, the other, there's, there's a couple other things to consider is that cashing Lou is also a measurement that we use when say a PUD amendment goes forth and the employee mitigation formula comes up with not a whole unit, a partial unit, that's when we take cash, that's when we provide that as an option for an applicant. The other thing you may want to consider and I know that this applicant cannot necessarily include it as part of their mitigation, but they can certainly point to it is that while Cat Ranches a whole gave the town a sizable chunk of land designated for employee housing that the town still retains. Okay. retains. Okay. First of all, I guess I'd like to see if there's a motion to approve, I guess, for resolution 15. So, Mr. Cooker, is there a second? Second. Second by Chris. So, further discussion. Steve, do you want to, I guess part of my concern is free requisite and trying to get a handle, not just for this issue, but for future ones that when we do have a certain percentage of housing, are we dealing with the right formula? Or should we direct staff to really say, okay, what does it go on take to build a whole unit and or a partial unit? Are we being fairer to the community? Are we being fairer to the developers? You know, can we just talk specifically to what our formula is for housing mitigation based on the number? Is there a fee and lieu multiplier? And is that what this number reflects? The number of their proposing doesn't reflect it, but the way our code is written is John described and as you may recall your college calculus classes. It is not easily factored because it is an exponential e square Joe coffee about what's things he's seen in larger homes and Come up with a compromise for this project and it may not involve their proposal of 95,000 So we're not locked into this number of 94,000 as a mitigation number by virtue of this pre annexation agreement I thought that was in the agreement. Well, yeah. We are locked into that number. If we agree to this pre-annunciation agreement, as it's written tonight, we're locking ourselves into understanding that's going to be the number. No? OK. You're not locked in yourself into any improvements. Right. Right. So that would, I guess, what you're saying is that would be the mitigation number that we're in this preannitation, we're understanding that it's going to be. But Steve is saying he still wants to work it out. And this doesn't provide for that. Are you talking about working the code out of this number? This number, because it was my understanding that there was some negotiations to be conducted, and this agreement was pre-annexation. The final annexation agreement might be different. Okay? As I understand it, there has to be a deal to answer the question. As it stated now, that's the number that would be accepted. Is that correct now? Fred? Am I correct? Or maybe I didn't, I'm just right about that. I thought they said they were asking for the waiver. But we weren't granting the waiver at this point. That correct. So we're not locked into it. That's correct. Okay. You know, this says the landowner agrees as follows. To pay the town a fee and lieu of all employee housing requirements and they amount of 94,175. The amount equal to that required for a 15,000 square foot single family residence in unincorporated picking county. And I guess by virtue of executing or approving this agreement, the town also agrees that amount. Is that accurate? Not exactly because you don't know what they're going to propose there. Okay, so there's they've calculated the maximum 15,000 square feet So you're not bound by their acknowledging that that's the amount your acknowledging that you know if you want to continue to negotiate this agreement that's fine Okay, other comments from Council? You know, we're also, we should not forget that you also have another $250,000 proposal from the applicant to pay a fee, $250,000, $250,000, and all of a sudden any financial impact. So, you know, in part of my sense, I believe that that's a fair, that sounds like it's been something that we have done in the past with these other properties, and so we're being consistent with the Wildcat Ranch when we've done these things in the past. So while part of my feeling is that I think we staff would need to look at this number for mitigation and how it's arrived. I'm comfortable moving forward with what we have here tonight. But I would like to really put a little more time in to try and understand these numbers for future issues because you know This really came up with other issues where other developers are in town and they're offering cash and lieu of instead of building something and the numbers in our formulas Just didn't seem to be quite legitimate to getting something built So that's the main thing that I think that, you know, the way I'm looking at these are codes and are numbers. Should that be a variable amount that over time and escalates or is there a set fee of, you know, it's $95 a square foot, you know, that we're asking for. What is that number so we can really digest it? But I think that, you know, we do have some good numbers in here for the community. I think there is a good benefit to move forward. But I think that would be one of the codes that I would like us to spend some time understanding better. Sounds good. Well, yes. I would just I would just tell you that the code provision under the method to provide housing. If it's cash and revenue, the town council may add its sole discretion except cash and a little. So it doesn't provide any direction on what that multiplier would be or how to come up with that. You have the formulas. Yeah, I guess my basis, John, is to say, let's spend some time in the future, understanding better that formula. I didn't look at the formula this weekend and try to really nail it down. Fred? Again, this is the first I've heard about the land that's been given to the town by the original WALCAT developer. Where is that land and what if anything is the town planning to do about it, or with it? The land is over behind Aspen Village subdivision. It's a, in a hillside, it's, you know, I honestly I would say it's probably questionable. What can be built on that property? Access to that property there's a number of issues about that, but it is something we have in our You know inventory But again, it's something that I think is going to take some work to really Take advantage of Okay, but but again, I didn't realize that that land was available to us to be used in either for employee housing or for to sell to somebody. I mean, I think 250 acres, is that what? No, no, no, it's not that much at all. I'm not sure of the size. I think if I'm an eight, I was going to guess 75. I was going to say, yeah, something in that 30. I guess my only point is that there's a value to that piece of property that I wasn't even aware existed. And I'd have to go back to the Wildcat Ranch when you say sell it that makes me nervous because I think that the way it is educated, it's reserved for solely employee. All right. Yeah, I think that's what I remember back in the day when I was sitting here and we talked about that. Jason, so I guess I'm just curious if any, if we ran the formula out on the affordable housing to say, if we ran the town's formula versus what they're proposing as the county formula for fee and low, how do those two numbers compare? That's in the information that's in your packet. Can you come down to that? 35 times the employee mitigation, but development under our code, the development of 115,000 square foot single family residents will generate 36 full time employees beyond the mere construction period. Right. I'm talking about the fee and lieu dollar value. If we accept that it really only generates one employee, which is I think what the Picking County formulas based on. Cash and Louis employee housing will shall include the net cost, total cost less than you might have covered by Renor sale cover of land and all related planning design site design, site development construction, construction management of costs of the project and current dollars will be incurred in order too. So it's very much site specific. There's not a formula where you can say employee housing costs $272,000 a unit in snowmass village at this point because if you build it in a donated piece of land or if you build it on the, for example, the carriage wayside, different factors. So to try and calculate that number, without having specific land acquisition, design and planning, I mean, if you're on the side of a 29% slope, that's a different cost than if you're on the flats of a used parking lot. We just don't have in our code a set multiplier. If you have one unit, if you have one employee, it's either build the unit or for a can should move the calculation. Okay, so Any other questions? I have a couple Jason. I'm just on the Solid Waste Disposal Plan. Does the town provide Solid Waste Collection in Wildcat? No. No. Okay. And then on the construction management plan requirement, this is in the requesting waivers from land use application submittal requirements. Can we talk about that construction management plan? They're basically asking that we defer that until a building permit is requested, do we typically require the construction management plan at the land use application stage or? We usually require a draft so that there's an understanding. Yeah, but when we had the details of the building construction itself in the building permit, that's when we get to the nuts and bolts of the construction management. This is a pre-annocation allowing to go forward. Right. Well, they're saying they don't want to bring that in during their land use review, which will be going concurrently with the annexation process. They don't want to bring that in then either. They want to finalize their plans and come in with a building plan. Correct. And at that time, they do a construction manager plan. So we would be granting the approvals during the land use review process and then they would come in for approval which would be granted by the building official at the time of building permit. Now the entitlements, the land use plan and the development plan will be taking care of by the council, the planning commission and the council. Once you've done that, the planning and building departments will review the final plan to make sure they comply with that. And at that time, that's when they would submit the construction and construction plan. I guess I'd like to have the planning commission get their eyes on construction management plan to go along with this property, but Jason, I'd like to back up to your first question about the trash. I think it'd be good for us to understand how they plan to do that because I have seen people from time to time You know come up Valley with their trash and put it in our dumpsters. I think that's one of those things where I doubt these guys, I think I think Wildcat Rich has their own pickup and stuff. I don't know that we would. What they're proposing though is to submit their solid waste plan when they submit their development plan. So that would go in front of planning commission and the council prior to those approvals. So I'm comfortable with that, looking at it then. Let's find do, I'd like to see the construction management plan at the same time, unless there's a good reason not to. I think that's appropriate. It depends on how detailed their development plan is. It may just be a building form on a pad, you know, or could be a complete house. That's the difference in detail of construction management plan. That's all. And we have pretty detailed construction management standards anyway that they'll be required to comply with. So is the author? Well, that's what I would assume. But I... Okay. You're the old-term Mr. Jason. That's right. Oh, and then the vesting really quickly. Could you just speak to the vesting goes to... It exactly minimics the wildcat ranch. Minutes the wildcat ranch. The 2024 for vesting. And that vesting allow is what is that in any of the words? It means that they were, when they get their approval, what the rules are at that point are carried forward. If you change them, it doesn't affect their not subject to those changes. Unless it's an ordinance, an ordinance ordinance a law of general application. What is the definition of that? If you change building code, they would be subject to the new building code. General application, yes. That's kind of what I was thinking along the lines. Okay, thank you. Any other questions? Just as Fred was saying, as we're just learning about this piece of property, the 75 acres or everything, it doesn't look like it's constructible or easily so. Should we be looking at opening a discussion about other potential uses for that? Not in conjunction with a separate piece of properties, petition for annexation and petition or application for a land use review. That's something that the council may want to direct staff to bring to them and look at feasibility, which I believe somewhere in the drawers in your department won't exist. You can take a shot at an aerial and get a pretty good sense of what you could and couldn't do with this land. We do have the housing director here, so you wanted to do a direction staff. I would suggest you direct it right at him. Am I, am I? I mean, in my mind, I see all these different employees that, you know, are sheep and then they get to graze on them. Something along those lines and we're not going to, if it's just sitting there, what would be the other options that we could do to utilize it, be it park, gardening, grazing, etc. That might be a suitable understand. It's a long round trip to get there. It's land. It is restricted to the uses of the property. So it probably is something I think Chris is a good point to direct staff. Let's look at that over next period of time to understand what can be done there and what, you know, what the options are. I think the bigger point is that it's not much of a contribution in terms of housing mitigation. Right. And so we should be thinking about this agreement as standalone in my opinion from that understood and understand that The council that approved it obviously didn't see it that way Times change Okay any other comments I'd like to call the question then all those in in favor of resolution 15, 3, 2, 3. Please send me if I be saying aye. Aye. Those opposed? Thank you very much. Thank you, Council. Now I'd like to move forward with item number five. This is the Mountain View 2 Building and Sidewalk settlement repairs issue. You've got Mr. Coffee here to talk to us about this. Okay, thank you, Mr. Mayor. Today, I'm just requesting Council approval to use some unappropriated funds out of the Mountain View 2 budget to make some building repairs. Fortunately, these repairs are not the main building. They're attachments to the building. We have some entryway roofs that have settled and some posts and a few walkways and a section of sidewalk that needs to be replaced. There just occurred over the last few months noticeably and I would like to use these unappropriated reserves to make these repairs. I've had a couple of contractors look at this. I'm still collecting a few more bids. But. So we're confident this one exceed $18,000. Yeah. And requesting a motion to utilize up to $18,000 for these repairs. Right. But the 18K is just for the post and roof repairs, right? No, that includes the sidewalk section as well. All right. Joe, I'm sure you can't tell us how this happened to be a problem. But we have an idea that we didn't do a very good job with compaction or review of the construction. How many years have I always said? These are about 15 years old and the soil is a composition of clay and shale and when water hits this material it tends to drastically expand and contract and over the years I think water infiltrated these piers and we're going to try to mitigate that and we really think that by making these repairs that we're talking about we can correct us without major excavation and redoing the piers. That's the plan. Jason? Could you just explain really quickly which buildings are mountain based to? It's the first buildings you come to on the lower end of the Mountain View Project. They're the green and orange colored. They're the most recent ones we built. Buildings? They're the kind of the green and orange colored. They're the most recent ones we built. Buildings? They're just right up there, not on your right. Are you right? They're on your right. And they're the first ones on the right above town hall. And those are rental. Right. Units. And so those were the most recently built, is that what you said? Up the area. They're the most recently built rental buildings in that area, right? 1997. I'm just wondering if there's other units that are going to face similar issues. We have some sidewalks that are settling and I've got those in annual mountain view budget. We're going to be fixing those already. This wasn't noticed really until this past fall after the budget was approved and that's why it wasn't put in last year's budget. Is it becoming a safety hazard or something with? Some of the sidewalks have trippers on them because the slabs have settled and so you have some uneven edges which need to be fixed. Some of the walkways have dropped a little bit and those need to be relivelled and that's what this will take care of. Jay, any other questions? Two just silly, but I'm going to ask them anyway. What do we do with a demolished concrete? Are they going to jack everything out and then? They'll haul it to the end. And are we paying for the hauling costs or something? All of this is included. It's included. But in general, is there something else we could be doing with that material? I don't think the town has the recycling capability to do something with that. Do we hunt? Yeah. So generally all the concrete construction jobs ends up at the landfill. And rough ballpark these days, what's a piece of sidewalk costing six, eight bucks, a square foot or just a care assay? I don't know. We're going to be talking about sidewalks. six, eight bucks a square foot or just that curiosity. I don't know what we're gonna be talking about sidewalks. You're almost right. It's around, I'm still getting some bids on this because I just met with a guy today, but I would say somewhere in the six to eight. Uh huh, yeah, just a dollar range. Okay, I'm good. Okay. Is there a motion to approve the request for up to $18,000 for this work? Some of. Let's move to HUD it. Abert and second by Fred. Further discussion? All is in favor, please signify, I say aye. Aye. Any opposed? It passes unanimously. Thank you very much, Joe. And Joe, I think you had sent us an email. I'm trying to be careful how I dance here. I think that it probably should be that you should have an executive session or some discussion about that. I don't think that we can't do it tonight can we? No, I don't think there's a little emergency. I think that if we could have a little discussion tonight at the end of this meeting just to give us a little update and maybe we can get some direction. The only thing I'd be interested in is understanding there's some parameters from the other party I'd be interested in sharing. But it's your call. You can have an executive session on that opportunity. There's some more information I'd like together to be honest and inform discussion. I guess this might just, you know, I think the wise for us to try to have that discussion sooner than later and I think to give some direction to you guys about maybe a direction that may have changed. People's opinions may have changed and I'd like to try to do that. I don't think we all got this email so I don't even know what we're talking about so would a five-minute executive session at the end of tonight's just to get a. Do you understand any of what we're talking about? Yeah, I mean an option. We can't really talk about the topic right now. There's a lack of information that I have. Yeah, with part of this. If you want legal advice here, allow to get that at any time. Okay, I'd like to try to do that at the end of this meeting. It won't take too long, but unfortunately, I don't, I think we need to keep Joe stuck to the base here for a little bit longer and we'll try to do we need Joe to stick around for that. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I'll tell you what, maybe would it be possible without infringing on too many folks for doing a little discussion about that after this discussion? Landscape program. Because the next one is the review proposed you for the Holy Cross. And that way for the other items, after this item, I don't think others are actively engaged in any of those other items. So we could insert a little executive session right in the middle of the meeting. Keep going. That's fine. All right. And I don't think Joe, I mean, I don't think it's going to be long. That's fine. But I think you're right. There's some things we need to deal with. OK? Yeah. All right. Moving on. This is item number six. Update on Town Landscape Plan for 2013. I'd like to start off this just stating this was a question that I had asked after hearing from some comments from the community and just trying to get an idea of a little more detail. During our budgeting last year, we had talked about this and went through a process and moved forward. But I requested really to get an idea of how these numbers all came up and rust? Let me just as an intro and needed to also provide some introductory information for Mary Ann on the bigger picture for RET, which most of you are very familiar with. But I think the question was we have certainly reduced the budget significantly within RET, but also specifically within landscaping and trails. And the question is, I think the question really that was framed has, have we gone too far in other specific areas that we need to invest more dollars? And so before we issued kind of an annual RFP for landscaping, wanted to have that discussion with you and get your input on the landscaping program before we do that. Again, just a quick summary of the numbers with real estate transfer tax. From a revenue standpoint, this is where we saw the most dramatic change over the last four to five years. We were at $6 million in 2007 granted that was because of the base village sale, then 3.5 in 2008 to a low point of a million in 2009. 2013, our red revenue is projected to be 1.6 million. Some money coming in at just over a quarter million for federal grants and a operating budget of two million. So we're still running in the red with this budget. We are using contingency. We're using fund balance. Again, I think it was acknowledged by council that we've certainly had a rainy day with this fund. So it's appropriate to use that in with the sale of base village. Which we received just under $900,000 in revenue for. We did replenish the contingency a little bit. But we still, into the year, if you look at what we budgeted with the update of base village, about $271,000 less than what we anticipated with that revised budget. So this is an area, the rent fund as a whole where we've cut dramatically. We still have a challenging situation using fund balances and juggling bus replacements. We do have a balanced budget going to 2017, but I just wanted to share with you. We're still very, very constrained in this budget. And we certainly have made very significant cuts, you know, with landscaping, with the rec center, and tried to be very frugal and careful with our bus replacement. Very good. Fred, so the tap. And perhaps this is not the right time to bring this up, but we're gonna bring it up in the next discussion. And so maybe it ought to be incorporated this discussion. And that is the Holy Cross grant, where we're sitting there was $700,000 or something that is available to us. And the first criteria in that grant, for which money's can be used is beautification. Now has anybody given any thought as to how to approach holy cost with respect to getting funds, for exactly what needs funds for, which is beautification? Right, and we'll get into this in the next, but it's a good question, Fred. And we did ask them point blank, the first criteria is beautification. Can we use this to better maintain our existing gardens and they thought about that? And they said, you know what, you can use these dollars for new parks, new landscaped areas, but just for ongoing maintenance or enhancement of what you have. We don't think that's an appropriate use for that criteria. So we tested that and that was their direct response for new areas, new places, great, but for ongoing maintenance. Now that's not what we saw this fun for. So when we can talk a little bit about that, when we get to that, but we didn't ask the point blank, okay? So with that, I'll turn it over to Andy and Hunt. Thank you. Okay. Ross kind of teed it up pretty well. And I'll just add on that we are here to kind of get a historical walkthrough of how we got to this point. Starting back at the budget session like Mr. Mayor pointed out there was a question on the maintenance, the level of maintenance. Specifically, some two of the areas that Markey, who is not here, obviously tonight, two of the places that she said that she would like to see more maintenance was brushing 82 and the welcome sign to Snowmass Village. As Russ said, we've gone through a big budget process trying to cut, trying to save where we could, throughout the, you know, since 2009, really. The parts and trails have been hit pretty hard, but it was obviously there was a need to kind of regroup and kind of understand what we were doing with all of those areas. So bear with me and I'll kind of walk you through an overview of all this, but you guys have obviously read it, so I won't read it word for word. And if you have any questions, let me know. Prior to 2008, obviously before the recreation center was in full bloom, let's say, the parks and trails had a staff of roughly 11 to 12 people. They did a variety of maintenance tasks from building new trails, planting, seasonal planting, sometimes a couple times a year at different areas. They also had an element of contract labor that they employed either for coming to do some planting, coming to do some spring cleaning. And so that's kind of continued the whole process. Coming to 2009, that's when we first started seeing the effects of the downturn economy. And obviously the budget reflects that. We went from 12 employees in 2008 to 2005 and 2009 and there was if we can use some growing pains, that's kind of our growing pains. We needed to see what we were doing and what was appropriate for this group to be doing at that time? We let me pull up a map as well and you can kind of see what we These are the major Park areas that we that we maintain the two that are not on here are that we maintain. The two that are not on here are Russian 82 and then also what we call the photos bot. It's a bench out on Rush Creek. You guys have seen it and that is what it's for. There's a pull out there. People go and see people there all the time taking pictures back up to this amazing valley. Welcome sign, town park, club circle, Homestead, Sinclair, Kathy Robinson, Yaro, Council Corner, Far Away, numbered lots, 1 through 13, and Benedict Park. In 2009, the ones in red, the town made the decision not to maintain those facilities anymore. Mostly private property, correct me if I'm wrong, anybody here? Private property on both of these, all three of these areas, pretty much private property. The town may have the decision to focus their efforts to the remaining parts, excuse me, parks, and then also the trail system at the time. To clarify on the homestead, that's just the road along the road. That's out front, that's long, it's big. As the budget went in 2010, further reductions, we went to two employees. And they were responsible for all of what you see there and safety checks on the parks. So they did an amazing job with maintaining what they could change the planting from annuals or from perennials to annuals to limit some maintenance ongoing throughout the season. With the exception of Town Park, the recreation center was as always been planted at the beginning of the year and we'll continue to have that. And we're talking the front gardens and the gardens inside the recreation center. In 2009, 2010, what Andy said was correct for the 11 areas, but in 2009, 2010, we used contract service to take care of the whole town park area, which included the saw-up wall field, soccer field, and all the surrounding landscaping. That changed in 2011. Did you just say that backward? We went from annuals to perennials, right? So they said that was coming back over years. Yes, that is correct. Thank you. I think we should just do that everywhere. I'm not a garden guy but. And as Hunt pointed out, since town park was just being completed, the landscape company that that designed it and planted it maintained it through 2009 and through 2010. maintained it through 2009 and through 2010. In 2011 we made the decision to have our team take care of Town Park and we would contract out the Exterior Gardens. A couple of reasons so we could have our crew focus on town park and also kind of narrow their focus. There were so many things coming online at that time, Tennis Court, but you know, Skate Park, you know, there was, we didn't know what type of maintenance we were going to need there and have to call somebody who was at the numbered lots all day to come down and maintain something at our town park wouldn't be very efficient. In 2012 we did the same thing. We had two people who worked at the town park site and we had two more that were dedicated only to trails. Prior to 2012, 2010, 2011, the trail system, the only thing that was getting maintained was safety issues, down trees, anything like that. There was really no time or staff to go out and maintain or develop any new trails. So that's where we were out there. Do you have a map by chance that sumly shows their trails? I do have a map. I don't have it with me. Okay, just. Yeah. And so in 2013, and as you have seen the budget, we proposed to contract out all of the exterior gardens and town park. The staff that we have will be totally focused on the trail system this year. Obviously with the strategic plan that the town is, the trails will be a high priority. And that's where we think the focus for our town staff should be devoted. The only addition from a financial standpoint to these presentation on how we're adding a third person in is we're using state lottery dollars. That's a separate fund. We've used that in the past to augment landscaping in this year. We would be using that to augment a third person on trails. Okay. I'm not going to ask him that. I'm Fred. So I assume you're putting all of the town landscaping out for bids. Correct, correct. How many in the past, how many bidders have you had? Last year we had six bidders the year before, I think there was five. It might have been seven and may have been six. My only concern was that there is a, there are a number of bitters out there. And mostly all local bitters as well. Okay. Chris, when you do an analysis of using subcontractors, a contractor is supposed to doing it in-house. When you do an analysis of using subcontractors, a contractor is supposed to do it in-house, where do we end up if you said, what are the comparative values? What things do I get versus how much it costs? Are we actually saving that much money? Yes, with the full-time employee, or full-time employee or full-time employee is the benefits that we're paying about $35 an hour for a contract employee, depending on what the task is. That could range from 35 to 45. But we can determine how many hours that specific area may need. And obviously it's, for the last couple of years, we have budgeted to a number. We said, okay, here's basically what it's going to be. And this is many hours that we can get in these specific areas. I think that leads into the kind of the staff recommendation and what I think our purposes here Would you like to see more Maintenance done in specific areas is it every single area that we see here Is it the areas that I pointed out at the beginning is it Russian 82 and is it photos photos spot we can actually what the plan is for us to go ahead with this RFP and award the bid after we put it out and then get with the contractor and come back with the plan for specific areas and say here's what you're going to get at this price and if you want this, if you want X, it's going to be fine. I guess I'm just going to get this one. The short answer to this question is it is cheaper for us and we spend less money approximately $80,000. If we contract out all landscaping and only devote our crews to trails as opposed to doing it in-house. I guess that was the big question because when I, you know, and I've talked to a few other people in the business, it was kind of hard to understand how we as the town would contract out with somebody, and it would be less expensive for us to contract out with them because apparently we do have a lot of equipment and a lot of stuff that we've, uh, made purchased over the years. So while profit has to be made on a constant contractor, what town doesn't need to make a profit, but we do have costs associated with administration and all the other things going on to it. But it was, you know, I guess, you know, earlier in the year, my feeling was talking to some folks seeing that and seeing things that we have cut back because we've had it, you know, we've all had to tighten our belts. There's no doubt about it. But at the same time, it just felt like we've gone maybe a step too far in my thinking that we needed to keep some staff in house doing some of this stuff, watching over it, directing better because a number of things have fallen through the cracks. So while we're trying to run to a budget and train to address reduced revenues, I was very concerned that a lot of things weren't happening and it was just a contractor's job and you know I was really concerned. Jason? I was just going to ask is the RFP get that detailed that talks about plant quantities that are going to be provided over the course of the summer. And I mean, we control that if we handle that in-house, is that really depicted clearly in the RFP? At the town park site, yes. The other exterior garden since the material has changed. Basically, it's what is growing there. If we wanted to see something different, then we would have to go back and redo that. So that's just a matter of maintaining what's already there in everywhere but town park. That's correct at this point. Well, except the issue of, I'll speak for Markey, because she's down here, but the concerns that she has had, will that be in your RFP as well, upgrading or maintaining whatever is there? At the 82 and at the town sign? That's the, I want you to pull them up. That's the question we're asking of you. We heard that at the budget meetings that we wanted to upgrade those. And what we would like, we think that's what you want want to do that's why we're here tonight to ask if you'd like to actually put a few more dollars into upgrading brush Creek and 82 as well as the welcome center I personally think certainly brush Creek and 82 needs to be upgraded from what it's been the last couple of years. And that's your direction we'll do it I don't think it's going to cost a significant amount of money. You don't have any photos of what Fresh Creek 82 looks like in the summer? Unfortunately no. Russ? I mean I'm sorry I really quit that. I've noticed it's sparse with plannings but it's well maintained it's clean. It's just not. It's bright. I think that's what I had heard from Markey. Could it be bright? Right. Is there an opportunity to redirect some of the work from other? I mean, we could drop one more area up higher in the village and redirect some of the already approved funds to there. That would definitely be possible. Well, the other thing is, you know, the budget velocity has always been used most restricted funds first, which is what the rep fund has been used for. But is it something that appropriate for us to dive into another, you know, general fund area to spend a little more, do this? But rest you had your hand up, so I wanted to move on to you. Well, you know, there's a couple other issues, and I appreciate the input I've gotten from others, you know, for example, trees. Are we doing a good job in terms of keeping all our trees up or is the irrigation appropriate? So that's something I think we've heard and also would want to integrate and put specifically into this. And, you know, I think we're pushing, you know, what we can do from a landscape standpoint. And we'd be closely looking at but make no bones about it. I mean, from where we've been to where we are today, we think we're more efficient with the use of money, with the mix of contract labor and in-house resources. But is it less of a service? Absolutely than where we were in 2008. But that would be the fundamental question back to you, is are there specific areas you would like to enhance beyond what you've seen in the past? Again, I'm not questioning your analysis so far, but in my own experience with this, unless you have a baseline of the service and cost per in-house labor to contract services, it's hard to decide whether you're creating an efficiency. If you're managing to a budget number as you're saying, I got to cut it to this. I got a contractor that says yes, they'll do that for that. I don't necessarily know what I'm getting. And I'll just add to my intuitive sense is that the difference between a contractor coming in is this lack of institutional knowledge and intelligence and daily repetition that Experiences the areas as opposed to someone who comes in they get a bang out 300 plants and then they move on And I'm not trying to make more work for anyone but I am my General instinct is that anytime you can create excellent motivated staff that understands what their goal is, it's going to be as valuable as subcontract labor, especially if the subcontractors are following the laws and rules, etc. I'll just, like one example, I think of that came to light last summer in my neighborhood up on the trail. What does that trail call for? Mountain. The Melton Ranch. Mountain Ranch Trail. Some of the brush clearing, basically some trimming of the trees along that trail. All the trimmings were just left on the side of the trail in large piles of, you know, dent tree branches, which were on site lead. You know, we had a high fire danger last year. I heard plenty from folks in my neighborhood about just satisfaction with that service level. So, and then I think ultimately if I'm not mistaken, we had to get town staff out to go clear that possible here. I'm not sure how that was resolved or whether it was. But anyway, I think it speaks to that you lose control basically over that in terms of level of service that you're expecting versus what is in the contract, maybe. I think it'd be, I mean, to answer your question and, Hanson Andy, see if you think this is accurate, is what you're saying is we would maintain the same level of service and quality with the landscaping with approximately $87,000 less in cost. Or do you believe there will be a further diminishment of service with the proposal of going with 100% outside landscape content. It should be the same. Really, Christy, the only really good baseline data we have is actually comes from the contractors. We know what it costs to take care of town, park, because we've done it two years at 45,000. We know what it costs to take care of the remote areas with contract service since we've done that for the last two years. You notice that those two numbers in the past have added up to $76,000. We've bumped that up to $95,000 to take care of some other things. We don't really have good baseline data on what it costs our own town crews to take care of these areas. If we had it then I could give you that comparison. Right. Let's hear a hand up in the audience. Jeff, come up and state your name for the record, please. Tell us what your thoughts are. Jeff's service. I understand what the Indian, the town, and Hunter trying to do as far as saving money and everything. And I applaud that. I mean, we've gone from $700,000 budget in 2008 to $242, which is great. But as a citizen, and I'm also a landscape contractor, I've bid on the RFPs in the past, and hopefully bid on this one. The one concern I have is we've invested millions of dollars in our park system, especially down around the Rec Center, the softball field, well softball field was here but we've upgraded it in the soccer field and stuff. And trees, moving trees is part of the process of moving these big cottonwood trees that are now falling down from the beaver's eating them. There's also trees that have been cut down, spruce trees from not getting adequate irrigation. I think to my knowledge, a contractor was brought in to kind of run the irrigation last year, but you bring a contractor in and they come in, they come Moe the area on Monday and they come back next Monday in Moe the area. They check the irrigation on Monday. They're not here Tuesday through Sunday and what if something happens and things do happen in landscaping. I mean so we have nobody out seeing all these parks on a daily basis. Nobody checking the irrigation on a daily basis. I just feel that we need more of a personal touch on this. Somebody overlooking everything. So this investment does not go downhill. We're going to lose another 10 to 20 trees this coming summer. We've had drought situations, we have the B-R situation. And honestly, the outlying gardens have been maintained. I don't think that the level that they were maintained in 2008 and 2009, I've seen a little bit of a decline in the quality of the gardens. You go up the number of gardens up the snow melt. I think we need to get a little bit better grasp on what we're contracting out and somebody needs to oversee and direct these people a little bit more, not just from, okay, here's the contract, go out and do it, and bill you brought up about equipment. We got, you know, I don't know how many tens of thousand dollars worth of equipment that we've invested in that we're not going to use now. You know, we've got trails with the drosed property now. I understand that we need to, people come here for our trail system. So I think it's good that we are maintaining those trails to a higher quality and hiring another person for that this year. I'm just worried that the quality of what we have right now and softball field use, a lot of the soccer field used tremendously the whole system down there to tennis courts volleyball escape park all it is used and it is very very nice and I just urge either public works or council to maybe have somebody that's going to be out there hands on Pushing the contractor if you do contract it out Whether it be from the wreck department or I Mean the road department's out there on a daily basis Maybe somehow this gets incorporated with them Looking at it as opposed to the wreck department so I with them looking at it as opposed to the rec department. So I think that's pretty much it. Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. Jeff, quick question. You know, when you are a contractor, what is your hourly rate that you generally charge a, maybe a private residential thing? Maybe they may give a raise. It varies from what we do. maybe a private residential thing. Maybe they give various. It varies from what we do. I mean, my rate's vary from $32 to $50 an hour, depending on what we do. And in looking at past Bids, Andy had said, about $35 an hour is the going rate for gardening. You might get a little lower, some lot higher. Yeah. But yeah, the 32 to 50 is what you're going to see. Most contractors coming up with. So, price of gas going up and equipment going up and all fertilizer has gone up tremendously. So there's going to be a little bit more expense to us this year than past years. Anything was we were providing jobs for individuals in the community. So that was not as direct benefit, but I think there were some good things to rush. You had a, again, just to kind of, direct, kind of free frame the question would be, you know, specifically compared to what you saw last year, you know, the, I think, the intent is to maintain the same level of service, recognizing I think there's some specific areas that do need to be improved in some of which Jeff addressed. From Council's perspective, are there some specific areas that you would like to see enhanced? And again, I think it's staff's responsibility to kind of figure out the best management solution for that at the end of the day. But are there some, if you compare to last summer, are there some specific areas that you see that need to be enhanced? And we may need to bring you back kind of a plan B and a cost associated with that. Council, Fred? Yeah, I want to go back to my opening issue with the Holy Cross. You say you presented the issue to them and they said, I'm going maintenance no. You've now used another word, enhancement. That's not maintenance. That is something new bringing on a change. I mean, everything comes down to money. What we're looking for is money. And if in fact, it may not be in fact, but if there's a possibility that we recharacterize what we're doing and it's not simply ongoing maintenance, but it's improving, enhancing, beautifying what we've got, is there a possibility of getting some of that money? I guess so. So that maybe we can hire, I mean, I think just point is incredibly well taken. I mean, we're talking about oversight. We're talking about administration. And, you know, we don't have somebody out there every day checking the gardens, checking the irrigation, what have you. You know, it seems to me that that's something we probably need and if we could find money somewhere to do that, I think that that would be a benefit to us, to the town. Yeah, again, Holy Cross's test was if it was something in this category that was something year after year that we would be asking for from a maintenance standpoint in terms of beautification in that category, that was something that they're not inclined to support. If it was taking a flower, you know, a grassy area and then turning into a flower bed. That might be something that they could consider. But it wouldn't be something on a reoccurring basis. And I'm doing it. It's exactly what I'm saying. We're talking about, for example, down to Breast Creek in 82. We're talking about enhancement. We're talking about enhancement at the side. This is an ongoing maintenance. This is getting something to a better place. I don't want to, I'm not going against any of the recommendations. That being said, I think it would be helpful for my comfort zone to see a comparison, as as I said sort of an Apple staples. If I took half a million bucks and I needed to get X, Y and Z done and I did it with staff, how would I do it and if I had to do it with contract labor, how would I do it? And I think for me, intuitively or in my experience in those related businesses, as Billy was saying, for a community you get a lot of these externalities that come with staff that you don't get with contract labor. And they add up to value in the short term and the long term. And then if we're still short from what we want to do to improve this scenario, I think as Fred's identifying we need to then find how we're, I think, as Fred's, you know, identifying we need to then find how we're going to increase that capacity on a fun side, on a financial side. But the move towards doing increasingly putting our control into somebody else's hands is one that I don't think is as beneficial. It doesn't give you all these different considerations that one would want to make from plant species, how you want to fertilize, how you want to water to, you know, how you how you want to plant, what the staff does when the rest time. And I realize that's a much more difficult challenge because it has to do with sort of managing people in a fish and manner as opposed to holding people to a contract. But that's my two cents on that. And I guess, you know, I'll step out a little bit here. And, you know, part of the problem as I saw it was when we let an individual go who was running that department and put it into Andy's hands, you know, under her, we seem to be doing real well. And then we let that person go. It seemed like things fell to the wayside. We were in the same place, we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and we were in the same place, and that I guess the management was questionable in my mind of how well it was being managed by the individuals at the time and you know it's it's something that for years this community has spent a lot of time and money putting in place and getting done and I can remember when I started this council back in the 90s, Kays saw on time, can't you be said, look, all the stuff you're building, you're gonna have to take care of. I hope you recognize that. And of course, when the budgets were great, we had good money and things went a lot better. And it's always difficult when you have to tighten your belt. So, yeah. you have to tighten your belt. So yeah. I'm very concerned that the individual and, we have you guys running this thing too much as falling through the cracks where I'm just concerned that we had two people last year on landscaping. And that was falling apart at that point. I just don't think we hadn't invested enough money. And again, because we try to budget for using the most restrictive stuff first, and then Mary and Harvest on us, I just, you know, I know you guys are trying to direct us to what areas we want better. I think it was just in general my feeling is, is that we need to, you know, to maintain some sense of history and reliability and experience of how we can make the village as beautiful as possible with the personalities we had. So I wish we could go back and find another pile of money somewhere as Fred was alluding to. But I'm very concerned that we put this on this requirement, this responsibility on to Andy's shoulders and I don't think it's probably the way I would like to see it happen. But again, that's not my job and I'll just state that. Jason, do you have anything? I guess I don't necessarily feel like we have all the information to really think about this. Thinking about Jeff's comments, which is to say I think that we have some existing trees or investments that are possibly jeopardized by virtue of not being maintained or not being kept up. That concerns me. It doesn't make me feel like we should be thinking about expanding plantings or investments in other areas. So I'm more inclined to make sure that we're taking good care of things we already have as opposed to new investments in other areas, enhancements, if you will, at this point. Yes. Well, that's helpful understanding kind of where you are in the spectrum. And that's something, I think we can bring a number of ideas to. You're kind of saying, it's somewhat of a philosophical and unmanagement. In a recommendation, you're putting into the pot. Just trying to get a sense of, if you compare to last summer, are you looking, you want a greater investment, are you wanting an enhancement, or again, Jeff has illustrated some things to myself and also to you now of where we probably need to do a better job of maintaining what we've got. So the other piece that my comment was going to be it seems like this one fixed that you're presenting to us is the idea of three people that we're paying for with in-house staff are strictly going towards trail maintenance. And I guess not knowing what the trade-off is there and what the thought process is to say that we're dedicating those three people definitely to trail maintenance versus two to trail maintenance as I think we had last year in 2012 and possibly dedicating one of those to that oversight role relative to the gardens or parks and it's just not laid out here and maybe it's something that we look to rust to manage from a management standpoint but you know I'm not I don't feel like I have the expertise or understanding to really weigh in on that necessarily. But you're right. I think the rest of my thinking, I would like to invest a little more money into our total thing, not just the trails. You give us some further illustrations, Jeff, of articulated one set of issues. Can you give us a sense of what you would like more of? I think Jason was right on. And because it dovetails with what Jeff said, the idea being, you know, you need to have somebody out there every day looking at all of the properties that we're charged with maintaining. And if they're not being maintained properly, they, and that's what the contractor is supposed to do, you know, we need to be's what the contractor is supposed to do. You know we need to be leaning on the contractor. But trails are important, I appreciate that. Wilkinson was here who probably keep pounding the table for them. But the investment that's been made, the deterioration that is being witnessed is a real problem. And if we're going to hire a third guy anyhow, I'd rather see that guy in an administrative capacity looking over everything that's out there every single day and correcting problems that day. Fred, you would, you know, instead of additional resources and trails, you would rather, again, continue to see a split in landscaping. And I don't know, Andy and Hunt, if you want to respond. And I guess I would ask further, I mean, why the additional resource and trails? We didn't get really the rationale behind that, but I mean, were people complaining about condition of trails? Is there some great new I mean I get drosti is an expansion the system but what is the demand? And I don't think we're doing a whole lot on drosti person. Yeah again that came directly out of your budget process for 2013 where again two people made a good dent in three people further move the needle forward in terms of enhancing trails and improving switchbacks. So again it was the concept that to made a dent we went beyond just basic maintenance but in three would move the needle further. I just look at it and again, I think you're right. I don't know if we have all the information. I kind of do the numbers a little bit in my head and say, okay, 2008, we had 12 employees and 700K. 2009, we're still at almost $400,000. We're over half our budget what we're spending in the previous year, but we're down to five employees. And we drop down to almost half of that, and we go to two employees. We're almost losing like an employee, a net employee each time. And I think that's because we're doing the subcontracting. And so then it's hard to say, and I'm not aware of some of these other issues, I think the ability alluded alluded to or really the complaints my own observations it did seem like we were kind of having less flowers or that's driving around. So I get to the component of a maybe we are low and anorexic on our funding for this especially when coming out of our well coming out of our retreat and looking at the survey numbers, you know, trails really were a high priority. It seemed like for visitors, for usage, and things like this. I also think in terms of what leading a little bit where I was going to go as far as any potential uses of the Holy Cross Fund, which I'm not that supportive of with the exception of really what I think therefore the trail may be way binding or signage system or things that I could see Holy Cross working with because you could make it the Holy Cross sign every time you would see Holy Cross or you could give them some graphic that would help that. But to end on my point again, it would be great in trying to make some of these decisions to understand how, you know, what's the apples to apples, whether it's a staff use or a contract use, then go from that point and say, okay, because my basic vote is as far as that direction, I'd like to see more staff and I'd like to see more investment and I'd like to see them in both areas, you know, and whether Marion comes back and says, you know, you're not paying attention to what we've got as our budget limitations. That may be the discussion, but express to answer your question, I would be supportive. I think it's great. I think it says it's such a refreshing component for me personally when you come into the town and you see the different trees, you see the flowers and express is kind of the entry way and what's potential in growing in the area. So, and I think that to have it be by staff that builds up an institutional knowledge that potentially has benefits in other areas, whether it's housing or sustainability at large, I think is a great thing. Jason? I agree with what Chris is saying. And I guess I'm just looking at these numbers. You're proposing to bump the contract by 63,000 roughly. And it looks like you're budgeting people at about 50,000 a person. So theoretically, you could take those dollars and put it into a person that can work those and still maintain the three that were budgeted in the next column as well. So I guess working within the numbers that we've already approved, is there a way to redistribute that or reallocate that to get more attention on the gardens through a staff resource and maybe maintain the same level of support to the trails program that we saw last year. I mean, I've definitely been hearing some disc content around the gardens, the quality of the gardens and maintaining the trees, I guess, that we have now. I haven't really last year, I certainly didn't hear much in the way of complaints around the quality. Oh, because hopefully we have our trail system. So hopefully we went in the right direction. But we had two people for trails last year. We did. So if we had two people for trails this year, presumably we should be able to maintain that level of satisfaction. Am I hearing kind of the interest of maybe Andy Hunt, do you want to comment on what you've heard or any thoughts? I would like to occur as for you to interpret what the council just had to talk to us about. So yeah, I think what we want to try to do. What I'm hearing, if you want me to take a shot at, the question is, again, in the budget process, we shifted a resource out of landscaping. I think what this was expressing was the attempt to find some further savings through contract services, maintaining the same level of quality, but putting more horsepower in trails. And I think what you're saying, if I'm reading in between the lines is, maybe, maintain status code with trails and maybe shift that individual that might administer landscape being back to landscape. And I guess I'm a little more definitive specifically. I'd probably like to cut some of the funds out of contracts and do it more personnel inside. I think that would be the net effect. I'm on agreement with that. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm a little unclear on what the intent of this item was at the most basic level. Was the, and maybe we're going beyond where you were hoping to hear from us. So, I mean, if you're, what was the question and what was the reason you came down? The question just to go back to the beginning that we heard, and I think Billy and Markey initiated, it was, we'd like to talk about enhancing a number of the gardens in landscape areas and you know I think the other thing to we were responding to is where there's some things that fell in between the cracks last year. Yeah, I think both things are true. I think and I'm really glad you left came here because obviously that's something that I was aware of. But number one, enhancing is something that we had talked about, that Markey had talked about, Bill talked about. And the idea of some oversight of what's going on on a daily basis, I think that's very important. I mean, you know, this guy's got to run the rec center. He just can't be doing, can't be all things to all people. If you have somebody dedicated to that, I think that may help things. One other little question just why we're at it, because it was what I said general, but it relates well to this. I think what do we do in our grants review process? I know I'm new and this may be a naive question. But for example, I and looking at what we got from Northwest Cogs, there had to be three or four different items there that related not necessarily all big numbers, but somewhere to bikeways trails, et cetera. There was a smart wool grant. There was a number of sustainability pedestrian grants. And I just want to, if we're trying to utilize those, because I know the one that was for bikeways, they gave away around $2.5 million in the last year. There's all sort, I mean, there's quite a few revenue sources for doing new things, new capital, new trails, new parks. But we're talking about now reoccurring maintenance year to year. Those are not typically things you can find grant dollars for at the end of the day. So again going back to the question at hand, I think we've heard wanting to maintain some additional continuity and maybe a shift from trails back to landscaping. And understand that the next question would be, I didn't heard a couple of opinions, would you like to, if you compared the last summer where we had two people on staff doing landscaping and going back, I think to Marquis question is, would you also like to see an enhancement of the quality of landscaping at any specific locations. And that's an increase in cost. We don't have an understanding of what the implications are of that with that. What are you saying from a budget standpoint within the context of the constraints we have today. We understand what status quo is. If what we heard is you would like from a couple of council members, you would like to enhance landscaping at a couple of areas. Right. And we need to come to classics. Do more with less. No, no, no. You're right. Fred, you said we can't get, you know, I keep coming back this Holy Cross thing because they talk about beautification. You said we can't get, you know, I keep coming back to this Holy Cross, because they talk about beautification. You said we can't get money for maintenance. I accept that. I'm not talking about maintaining. I'm talking about improving. I'm talking about enhancing. I'm not talking about something that's ongoing. But if that is something, several of us have said we like to see the first week at 82 fixed. We like to see the town sign fixed. Better. Make I'd like to see the town sign fixed. Better, make it better. Handced. OK. Is that something you can approach Holy Cross with? On a different basis than you approached it before. Can we get 55 gallon plants from out of Holy Cross's funding? I mean, that's the basic. We can certainly try, but I think what you're really saying is I think the question to ask is, does the group agree with Fred or those three areas where you would like to enhance landscaping? Yes, he's trying to get us into certain things. I mean, honestly, it's, yeah, the highway too, the way I look at it, but it's just, it's more than that, guys. It's the whole deal where I think an individual has better opportunity to see things instead of the bureaucratic, we want photospot, we want council corner, we want Sinclair. I think there's a lot more to it for us, unfortunately, than just saying these little areas. I think, you know, I'm just trying to get a sense. I'm trying to make sure we're not losing trees that we already have. I understand that. And that's something we can do. They're that we already have. I understand that. That's something we can do. They're working on that stuff. I mean, are there trade-offs? We don't understand trade-offs or what the budget implications of what you're asking us are at this point. Yeah, again, the question was to maintain status quo from last summer. You had a savings of approximately $85,000 with this. Now, the question I think that was framed to you is, are there some things you want some enhancements of compared to last summer as a baseline? I think we want enhancement of the status quo. That's what I'm hearing. Yeah. Because I guess last year 2012 was spent 330,000. It looks like for the budget for landscaping in trails was 330 and this year we've got budgeted We total budget has been decreased to 240 2000 so an eighty-seven thousand dollar reduction I you know that's maybe that's a better way to would you prefer not to see that cut? Yes And you would like to see some options in terms of how to not see that cut. I think Jason has a good point there that we need to know a little more about how we're going to do that. But it's real close for timing for all these businesses trying to be able to put together a proposal on a request. So would the takeaway be from this? Again, we budgeted for additional resource and trails, potentially putting that back into landscaping and you would like to not see that cut in landscaping and some options for what that would mean. Yeah, because honestly, this is one of those things people do see when they come to town here. It's very apparent and I would rather maintain what we had in the previous year. Does anyway we can. And I want to echo, I think what's been said, I think what Billy said, as part of that, it would be nice for council to understand the options between paying cash out contract labor. There's always mark up, there's always tax, there's all these other things as opposed to in-house staff. And I don't know any of the history of the department how we got here. That's just looking at it from what I have today sitting there and saying, okay, we're cutting 87 but we're bumping up to 95 on our contract. Subcontractors, if we can bring money back in, how does it get spent and what are those different benefits or negatives as the community as a whole? And in my quick opinion there, they are beneficial. If I just sense you at a way out plan on it. Talking about investing in flower beds at the photospot or at the welcome sign. To me, those areas along Breast Creek Road, it feels contrived and out of place to have like a bright flower bed there. You're kind of in a rural kind of drive. And the scenery of the view up the valley or down the valley is where I want to be looking and frankly to meet investing in flower beds in those locations is not. You think there's a lot of ones to you? True, I would like to. I mean, you know, regardless, welcome sign, pull out spot. I mean, I think it makes sense to draw some attention at Fresh Creek A2 if we're going to be talking to somebody about enhancing that. But to do flower beds and like those gardens in the more urban setting of within town limits, I'd like to see the investments go there as opposed to on Breast Creek Road. Okay. Is there a- I'm sorry. You said you would prefer the investment going into those- Not to photo, not to the photo pull out for flowers. Yeah, don't focus on the pull outs on brush creek road, the welcome sign, or the, I mean, it just seems so contrived and at a place to have like this right flower bed. And at the entryway at 82 and brush. Yeah, that is an area. It's been good. I think, you know, the tree lights, all those kind of things didn't all day season. That makes sense. But once you hit the entryway here at the rodeo, then it becomes your in town, your like more of a environment that seems suited to those kinds of things. But again, that's nice question. For us, Yeah, I guess you know. I don't have any questions. No, okay? Okay. I think we're approaching it as kind of a shift from resources back from trails, but also trying you want to buy an enhancement. Yeah. Which means not seeing a cut. Right. And so you'll have to come back and I guess tell us more budgeting information. We got to give you a few options to achieve that. Yes, please. And so you'll have to come back and I guess tell us more budgeting. We got to give you a few options to achieve that. Yes, please. And some financial options. Yeah. Don't have them here tonight in my pocket, but we'll find some. I'm sure you don't. Unfortunately. I mean, it just might be shifting resources around investments in one area now, though, to make something happen that has more impact. Okay. Okay. At this point, I'd like to move that we don't have a language. Why? I don't want to check your email. Thank you, sir. You're awesome. Come in here. Come in here. Come in here. Come in here. Come in to here. Come in to here. No, no, no. Which one? We're off. We're off. We're off. We're off. We're town. Rough. Okay. Checking for mail. I'd like to move that we go into executive session to discuss with our attorney some legal issues and also regarding housing. I'd like to invite Joe Coffee and the town manager also to stay with us with this discussion. If I can find, come on. Nothing there, John. I'm going to my TOSV mail. I want to send it to Ruff. You send it to Ruff? Yep. OK. You send it off? Yep. Okay. Well, my rough is not dumped it in here. So, John, can you read off then for me what you would set me? Is that an opportunity option for that? Wanna want to check your TOS via account. Yes, there it is. Okay. Let's come into here. The town council now meet an executive session pursuant to CRS4, CRS24-64024, and the mass village municipal code section 245c to specifically discuss two items. Determining positions relative to matters that may be subject to negotiations, developing strategy for negotiations and instructing negotiators, pursuant 246402. 4E and the mass village municipal code section 245c5 and confiscable attorney for purposes of receiving legal advice from specific legal questions, pursuant to CRS 2464024C and Stamines Village municipal code section 245c2. Is there a second to that motion? I guess so. Second by Fred, for the discussion, all in favor please signify saying aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? If you're right back, we shouldn't take more than about five minutes. There's food if you want. you you you you the We're on to know that. Moving on now item number seven. Review proposed use of the Holy Cross enhancement fund. This is something. Russ. Yeah, we were talking about a little earlier in the meeting. It's something we talked about as part of the 2013 budget last October is, can we create a predictable plan for using the enhancement fund? We talked about two areas of need. One was, could we inject some money into a significant idea for sustainability and the environment? And the other was the topic we were just talking about is can we use this fund to help us with a couple specific needs with the real estate transfer tax and some of the funds in purposes behind that. You see on page 29 at the bottom and this is a cut and paste out of our town code and this is a fund that we received from Holy Cross. I think it originally started with the purpose of undergrounding utility lines and then evolved from there. And you see seven purposes in the language associated with that. And we did sit down with Holy Cross and explored some specific ideas and tried to get a sense of what other communities have done. Again, with beautification projects like we just mentioned, that can certainly be used for new landscaping, opportunities, new flower beds, new parks. Energy conservation projects, we talked at the length about that. The wording's not in this, but they strongly recommend that this is used for public facilities and public needs, ideally visibly public projects. A equipment and technology upgrades for schools, that wasn't something we specifically talked about, it's something they've done scholarship funds for students. Equation of open space in our park lands and development thereof. This is something where we explored, could we also utilize this for the creation of new trails? And they indicated that affirmatively. And also then we talked about the utilization for wayfinding trails, or wayfinding sign system for our trails. And they were very open to that. Special sponsorship of special community events. Again, they do this regularly in terms of supporting community events. The Thursday night conference series was something that was discussed and something that they would be supporting. And then seven is where this program evolved out of. You see the process for allocating dollars. Again, this is money that we receive, that we hold an account. But to disperse it and use it, it requires their permission and a formal action of the town council for a specific idea. So going down to page 31, these are a number of ideas and then you see a corresponding table that goes with that. We have a fund balance and we believe we'll have a fund balance at the end of 2013, just over $700,000 and the annual contribution is based on total energy consumption. So I guess if we find a way to be much more efficient, this number will go down. But right now we anticipate it's about $85,000. So we were wanted to present some ideas in terms of potentially how to use the fund balance. Some of the other and also present some ideas of how to program uses and maybe think about them year after year in terms of annual usage. And the real question we're asking you is are there other ideas you would like us to explore because we'd like to now go to Holy Cross with some specific ideas, give their consent to specific ideas, and bring it back to you for formal approval. In this, we've been talking within the AB, and I think we were just recently talking about this idea during the retreat of, again, a significant idea of leveraging about a half million dollars of that fund balance to get an RFP process to attract a significant renewable energy source that would have a return on investment. And this is something the EAB wants to come to you in the next couple of weeks. Present a concept, give you some more information. So this is a proposed placeholder for this. The other two items in talking to Holy Cross were, again, it appears there's a match in terms of need as trail signage. And again, potentially looking at 40,000, we think this would be a good start to creating a good trail signage program and a way finding system for our trails. And then the other item we've been talking about that we just couldn't find a good way to fit into our budget was the ice skating program. And looking at a number of approximately 40,000, Andy did give me a little bit more of a refined budget. I think that would pretty much take care of. This is assuming and there's still discussion about, having a refrigeration system on it. So this does not contemplate paying for electricity if a refrigeration system was donated to the town. And that was discussed when we last talked about the ice skating rink. And as I'm hearing the benefactor is still interested in it. So this is just assuming we have some coverage from a staff standpoint and we would be maintaining it, maintaining the ice. There was a constructive discussion with Cerce about how much do we need to supervise it and there was a little bit more flexibility that granted us. So these are some ideas in terms of utilizing this fund. Wanted to touch base with you see if you had any other ideas you wanted us to test with Holy Cross. And then go through the process of getting a formal approval by both them and you. Okay. Council what did your thoughts when you heard this? I haven't lots when I read it but one just occurred to me right now and I'm just going to ask the question. In Snowmass Village we pay a search arch on Holy Cross service, right? I don't know the details of that, but it was relative to the undergrounding of electric lines, undergrounding of electric lines, up brush creek road and closing of the substation, I guess, right? Yes, and slated substation. Yes, and slated substation. And I'm just wondering as a measure of that eligible use of undergrounding and what is it? Undergrounding overhead electric and other utilities. And I don't know what the dollar amount of that undergrounding was that we're paying off through this search charger. How long we pay that for or anything, but it'd be interesting to know the details of whether we could just eliminate the search charge and contribute our Holy Cross enhancement fund to pay off a portion of the search charge on behalf of our citizenry. Does anybody know the details of that? I'll be able to base fill it through the citizenry. I wasn't clear there. Base fill a donor might be benefited by that. I think it was like, end of the day we paid, it was like a $9 million cost. I think is what it was a certificate. I don't have the details. So yeah, I don't think that would go very far. I'll be far towards taking care of that. That does not go very far. No. So we paying that for the next 30 years, just 20, 30 years. Okay. That's the one. I like the idea, you know, the trail signage and the things you have, you know, spelled out here. When we talk about the ice skating rink or did Andy put together like ice skating rinoles and those kind of things is that part of this 40,000? Again he got to a budget of close to 50. So this is a good chunk of that but he also had some revenue and it's that revenue piece that could bring it back down. I don't want to hang my hat too much on revenue particularly in the first year. Yeah. And Holy Cross approved this ice-wink operation? Again to be clear they haven't approved of anything specifically. I mean again they wanted to see something and writing a concept. The concept they've said okay. We tested this concept off of them and they said they'd be interested in that. They don't have to approve it. They just have to not object to it. Correct. I'm wondering why you don't have a number in there for the Thursday night concerts. I did want to acknowledge that. That is something that would be eligible in this. I asked, do we have the dollars today to continue to fund Thursday and the answer is yes. So that doesn't buy you something new, but I did incorporate that into the memo. And it is something you could request support for in the future if you wanted to. I guess my thinking is the Thursday night concerts are a money loser. I mean, there's no return on investment there. It's something that we want. I suspect if we got the Thursday night concerts funded through this resource, the marketing committee, the marketing board might find some better use for those funds. You're right Fred, because I think one of the charges we've given the marketing board and that group is to get a return on the investments they have. And I could see some point in the future that come be a conversation. They might say, you know, it's not cost effective to continue the Thursday night concerts. And we've asked them in Canada to contribute money to jazz aspen and to X-games and what have you. I mean, they've done a lot of stuff at our behest that we couldn't do. Here's something we can do for them and get them some more money in their pocket. So they can carry out their true mission. When we met as staff last week and just talked about these needs, we acknowledged that that is a legitimate need and an opportunity to fund something that isn't generating a significant return on expenditure at the same time. We concluded that there are sufficient dollars to pay for the Thursday night. So it's entirely your choice. We saw the greater need with offsetting costs with the real estate transfer tax. I am not knowing all the history and the back and forth in what we've asked Barca to do. Not in favor of spending this money on the concerts unless somehow they were more civically focused on some agenda, education, but you know, I just don't see us paying for that benefit out of this. Certainly with the comments about Holy Cross's ideas in the past. I have a little bit of a similar problem with the ice rink, and you know, I have a little bit of a similar problem with the ice rink and you know I have a kid is an ice skater and I've been down there and I like it. I don't feel like I know enough about how it would work. Yeah I sure so must be the insurance company I'm sorry. Yeah. So I'm not really in favor of that though I'd be closer to that and probably out of the most as I said I think think there's probably for that limited 40,000 bucks, you can really do something nice with Holy Cross on the trail signage component. That being said, I still, for my personal take, would hope that this would go to, is a major amount of money, that it would go to a major project that would really have to do with energy. We don't know if the EAB is going to provide us an idea relative to this RFP. In my mind, the marketing brand value, et cetera, of doing a major project, such as working towards energy independence, energy production, similar to ski coves and methane conversion or something like that, would be where I would think it would be the most appropriate or most exciting to me. And when I think about it in those terms, if it stays relatively 85K, if we spent 40 or more, you know, and I did think, or their friend from the Red Brick School House, that maybe the 5,000 could come out here But that being said if we start to spend that 80 or more a year then we're going to stay flat on this Whereas if we were planning a major project and we are using it to leverage additional funds instead of being flat two years from now Or a year from now on planning and two years from now we we be close to $900,000 and I think that if leveraging the Holy Cross Fund to then do another project as a proportion it becomes exponential. So whether we have $500,000 to leverage to $2 million or having a million to leverage to $4 million just to use comparisons, that's my feeling on it is that we're just getting close to having some major ideas and some real feedback and thinking from EAB and discussions with Holy Cross. I'd hate to see us utilize the funds in these little dribs and drabs when we have the option to do something larger and more serious. So you like keeping a big pot you know, for at least until I hear from the EAB about what they're thinking, what the potential cost might be. It was amazing to go to the methane conversion tour that Holy Cross and vessels and everybody did there and to think about what the marketing, the brand integrity and marketing opportunity of it as a town to move towards energy independence is, to me, phenomenal. I think it could be, you know, you start doing these marketing analysis of what are you getting on your per page spot or things like this to do a project that really brings in all those components and gets a lot of, you know, national, international state attention I think would be much better than the ice skating rink which I'd like to find out a way to make work also. I'd like to make that successful. But I've also heard discussions there, even in regards to that where there's a discussion of a building and a center and how does it operate and I might like to know that hey if we are doing that maybe we need you know instead of taking 40 out now we're talking about taking 250,000 out of that to embrace that larger building structure. Well I think you're right but one of the things we have in looking at Chris is doing a master plan of that area going back through a process because I think, you know, to put a building to protect the ice for, you know, 250, maybe even a little short-sighted there. I'm just saying that I'd rather see us make a major contribution to that. Yeah, I like the idea of the trail signage. I think that would be, you know, one of the areas that we're seeing a lot more people coming to the summer house in the summertime and taking advantage of our summer amenities we have and I think that's a great way of really helping out understanding because I do have a lot of people that tell me that they you know they're having a hard time understanding where they are they don't live around here I think it helps and you know I think we're gonna have to do that anyway in the town side so I think we helps. And I think we're going to have to do that anyway in the town side. So I think we could, I would support using the 40th of K for that right now. I follow along with Chris. Is there something that the town should be investing in solar energy or other, you know, farms, another locations or should we be looking at putting some solar collectors on some of our other employee housing somehow to take advantage of things in that vein. I had a guy come to me today who's done it on his house and he's telling me he's pretty happy with what he's able to accomplish and he's zero he says he's pretty happy with what he's able to accomplish. And he's zero, he says he's not costing him anything for his energy usage now, because he's invested in this project down at the, I guess the Garfield County Airport through the solar thing. So I think people are getting into that and I think it's appropriate for government to look at that and to do that as we did with our, you know, some of our Brex Center energy usage in that solar collector. Anything new, you know, I would probably say we should keep the Thursday night concerts on our radar screen because I think it is an appropriate thing that we are trying to find money in other areas. So I would move with a consensus of the group to support that, but if we can't do that, that's okay. Fred? Well, I mean, I just, it is number one. It's something that they have passively approved, at least at the proposal. Number two, you know, as I said, we've asked the marketing committee to spend a lot of money on our behalf. X Games, jazz, ask them what have you. I think with their new board and hopefully their business plan coming up, they can put this money to good use. And if the goal of this community is to increase tourism and get more folks in here to get this place more economically active, they are the folks who are in a position to do it. And if we could now help them, instead of them helping us all the time I think it's a wise use of the money We are them Fred It's not us helping them or them helping us. It's just a town event Except that they've got a budget and we've got a budget and they've got a separate tax base. We've got a separate tax face That's the difference. I think the tax base is all the same. But they're designated to certain amount. They're the only outfit that I know that is. Right, but this is the exact kind of event that that restricted fund is designed to be utilized for. I'm sorry Jason, I didn't hear you. This is the exact kind of event. The Thursday night concerts are expressly within the purpose of what the marketing fund revenues are to be used for. There are four special events. This is a special event to take restricted funding out of another available revenue source to augment that. To me, seems, I'm not in favor of that, frankly. If that event is proving challenging for us to justify in terms of the investment we're making, to me that says it's an opportunity to downsize that event or downsize the budget for that and work within the means that we have within that designated fund, not to designate or dedicate additional funds from other resources that can be used for other things. This is not the place to have an argument about this, so I'm not going to. I suggest to you, all I suggest to you is that I suspect you would fight a whole lot of folks in this community rather upset if for some reason the Thursday night concerts were in any way curtailed or suspended. We have made demands on the marketing committee that we want to see returns on investment. We know this one will never have a return on investment. But it put smiles on people's faces and that's why it's being done. And if there's a way that we can use that say money to get a return on investment, I would rather do it that way. Okay. I'm hearing your split on it. So, for right now, I guess that's not, you know, a mode, a direction we can use that money for today. And again, the marketing board can certainly knock on your door in the future. Right. On that one. I just want to raise a question. Go ahead, Jason. The item of the trail signage, I'm in favor of investments in our trail signage. I'm a little concerned, you said the 40,000 is we'll provide a start to creating a trailway finding system. And then you're putting that in a line item that says it'll be a $40,000 annual recurring contribution. So how much does a trail-sist sign system cost to do our whole? We don't have a price yet. The information I've gotten from Hunt so far and he's in the process of attempting to price that is it certainly depending on the breadth and the depth of the program. We do it couldn't be more than that. And again, the challenge will be getting people to our trail heads. That's the key issue. So it could be adequate. We really don't have that. We're going to work on this 40,000 for the next 10 years. Is this 40,000? No, I think it's 40,000. Expectation I wanted to give is 40,000 may not get you to the end of the road. It may take two years. Or we could just put 80,000 towards it now and be done with it. You could. Yeah, but you guys don't have to understand what the whole cost. I feel like we've had a somewhat agreement on the fact that trail signage is a potential good use of this. I think I feel similarly that without the EAB suggestions, whether we agree with them or not, but those in front of us and then understanding a little bit more about the finances of these $40,000 annual uses, because again, as I say, my condition is that if I'm in all of this and ramp up in two years and there's going to be this great project, then I'm going to be at $900,000 or back to, you know, six or whatever it ends up once we start spending money, especially if the usage changes, you know, and we actually start to take it less than $85,000, we could start to go backwards on the fund. Then I'm concerned about that. And not to be in any way arguing with Fred's analysis this situation, but I don't think that the Thursday not concerts are appropriate for this. And as you were saying, if the marketing board feels that they should not be doing that, I think that they should bring that forth and or find a different way to make it perform. On the ice skating news. I'm wondering about that. Is that just, it says operations and management of it? I just wondered if that included considering some environmentally sensitive and more energy efficient lighting for the thing? I think that's a similar one in my take on this where we don't really have enough information to feel. I'm not trying to make more work. It's hardly 40,000 that you're talking about. Or is that simply buying an inventory of skates and? I mean, the way I'm thinking about it, obviously we have an entryway planning process. Or is that simply buying an inventory of skates? I mean, the way I'm thinking about it, obviously we have an entryway planning process that we're talking about initiating. Although I'm a supporter of the ice rink in general of being a component of that, I'm not crazy about the idea of new energy load associated with refrigeration. So to me, if we're going to talk about doing ice at the entry way as part of that planning process, I would love to see these two ideas or a couple ideas of the ice being funded partially through this with a cover to improve the quality of the ice and the longevity of the ice and incorporate in that possibly a large renewable system to offset. It offsets the whole thing to me with that. So I think you're talking about a large roof structure that could accommodate a big solar array. There might be some creative way to incorporate all of those ideas into one idea. So, and you have demand down there between the Rec Center and the rodeo houses and I think it makes sense to do something big in that area and justify the idea of the ice and the new load down there. And then the other thing I would just say on that renewable piece that you're proposing are the 500,000. I'm also interested in whether or not the EAB is looked into this or we're looking into the idea of how, and maybe you said this already, Chris, but how that money can be leveraged through other partnerships. Is there something that a $500,000 contribution in combination with the county or in combination with the ski company could make for bigger things to happen. I don't want to give up too much, but that would be one of the considerations in this as we're envisioning an RFP and one of the criteria would be to what extent does an idea come where it's leveraging dollars. So again, we're talking about something that seven figures at the end of the day in terms of total value, but it's our 500,000 that it's making it happen. And then there's also financing opportunities out there that you can get really low interest, one in 2% of financing through some money that the state has that this again could be a contribution to leverage some of that and make something bigger happen. So I think you were speaking to some of that, Chris, both. And then also, I guess the other thing about that is you kind of limited the concept to a large renewable project. And I'm wondering if you're really putting that kind of parameter around it or whether it's a combination, possibility of efficiency and renewable energy. Right now, yeah, we did inject, you know, with that, we would be looking for ideas to improve on efficiency, recognizing what we've already done today to improve efficiency. But if we can find more, that could be a very cost-effective way to reduce our total carbon emissions, especially on existing town facilities. Exactly. Makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, I do want to say, and I don't know what happened on the council level, but I know being in the EAB Russ, it seems like we've made a lot of progress and trying to figure out how we might, you know. This is some of the groups excited about it. You know, utilize this, and I want to applaud you and staff for getting us, you know, this far because I know for a while it seemed the idea of getting somewhere with us great. So I'm hearing support for reserving a chunk for renewable. Yes. I'm hearing support for wayfinding, recognizing that may not be the end all, but it's not probably, I'm thinking it's two years that- Trails system, sign it. For trail system. Right. And I just heard a discussion on the ice skating, you know, that, you know, it's more focused on the in-state of where we might go with this, but it just in terms of maintaining status quo with the operating, and I think we do need to address the lights if we're operating, and I think we need to do a better job of abiding by our rules. So I think that's something we gotta look at. I think there's an opportunity to just put new fixtures on the existing polls, put them down lower, direct them onto the ice, you know, use high efficiency fixtures. And I mean not to me is pretty appealing as one piece of the solution out there. But again, I want to think about that in a more holistic, context. So, now that said, totally different subject, immediate short term, if those lights are a big concern, I'd be able to do a conversation outside of the context of this, like let's just fix the lighting problem down there so that we can maintain status quo. But that's not for this conversation. Was there interest from others in terms of exploring the utilization with ICE? Yes. Chris? Yeah, I still feel the same way. I don't want to commit to that at this time. We're not committing. All we're doing is trying to come to closure with trying to find some information. What we really want to test and writing with Holy Cross. Fred? Yep. Okay. So? Yep. Okay. So again, we have the other uses, the one that's not on the table yet and could be subject to future discussions as Thursday concerns. I think we could even make the argument that building a cover over the ice is an energy conservation measure in that you reduce your demand for refrigeration. If you were refrigerating it, that might be valid argument. Yeah, for your line of mother nature. Well, that would help in a mother nature. It would keep it there longer. We've kind of touched on it. Is there something coming down the pike where I mean, I hear from we're hearing now, go more other people in the community. Oh, we got to build this big thing. It's going to be rodeo in the summer. And it's going to cover and Gustaf sends designing it. It's already done. And we got all we got to do is say yes. And if council would get out of the way we'd have this thing done already. So are we just trying to quick recap. So are, it's something coming down. I think the only thing I'm hearing in terms of money to make things happen is the benefactor that we've been talking to is interested in supporting a refrigeration system. So that's the limit. I mean, it does seem like as part of the entryway planning, this idea, it's not my first choice, but it's compelling enough that I'd say, okay, let's sit at the table and see if we can get it done to put in a building with the bleachers and all that stuff and make it more of a year round and make it look cleaner and neater as you come into town. And there's the Holy Cross, ice serena, and rodeo grounds or something, you know. Jumping ahead, but, you know, I just but you know I just added with the solid farm right we we want to have center we're at a point where we've done some research in terms of the components that fit and don't fit at the entryway and you know I think we're prepared to kind of share with you the one thing I want to make sure we have well grounded is a scope of work of next steps but we have some interesting homework that's been done in terms of the pieces and what could fit at the entryway and what doesn't. Very good. So that will be coming down the pipe. That's coming down the pipe. Anything else in this issue, Mr. Forst? Nothing. I think I got the input we need. Moving on then item number eight, And nothing I think I got the input we need. Moving on, item number eight, managers report. People have read that and comments, questions. Also put a draft EOTC agenda in front of you again, February 28th, Thursday at four o'clock PM in Aspen. The thing you'll notice at the end is discussion about EOTC approval process change. And I think there could very well be a discussion about if you go to a meeting you have agenda items. It's a discussion about can you make final decisions? Are you willing to make final decisions at EOTC meetings versus taking it back to your perspective jurisdictions and the decisions and thinking could change and evolve. So I believe that'll be the topic. Right. That's interesting. Good. Also, as you see in Russell's notes, there is the Picking County Emergency Management Office as having the class. They were needing some information by the end of last week or this week. If anybody's, I'm going to it. I'm gonna go good I was gonna move it we assign marquee to that but Okay, I'll say I had one other thing I wanted to add and acknowledge to council We talked about construction management plans a little bit earlier in the meeting. And with those, it's a body of legislation, Jason I believe you worked on. We can control the timing and the hours around construction with individual construction management plans. We've done that in years past where we have not had a lot of construction activity. Right now we don't have any major projects and we're still looking at events moving and changing so we know a lot of the summer but we don't know the full summer. There's also the option in the code that if the town council wants to they can create a calendar via a resolution and really say there shall be you can say a variety of different things, but you can up front say there's no events, there's no construction activity or noise generating activity on certain dates where there's events. We hadn't done it for a number of years because we hadn't had construction, we did do it last year because we had the West incoming through. We really don't have anything in the cards definitively for now. So our thought was to use the construction management plan, have, you know, if there was one for say 13b, have that discussion with you so we make sure that that project is properly mitigated versus approving a schedule. But we want to acknowledge that to you. If you want to do a schedule, we can do a schedule, and we did that last year, and it was predominantly because the Weston was coming through, and we were concerned about our events and venues at Fannie Hill. We just don't see that same needs, that same urgency, and we think we can manage it better through an individual CMP that we discuss with you. It is right, yeah, that's an annual thing. Generally, we like to do. Again, staff doesn't see a big thing. It's for our jazz festival type thing. We tell people, you know, you don't want your big, bringing big trucks in. You have problems anyway. We deal with those on an individual basis. So they know that roads are going to be close and that kind of stuff. Jason? If it does come up that we want to do that, just provide the opportunity to do that at any time. At any time, in fact, the chief building official can do it up to seven days in advance. So comfortable with that. Okay. Anything else? So we're not going to do a calendar? No. Okay. That's all I had. Okay. Moving on. Item number nine, agenda for next council meeting. And we'll talk a little bit about schedules along the same time for, if we could. Again, there's a couple of details I just want to nail down with item number five on the entryway. Make sure we have good numbers with a scope to bring to you the other item. I am hopeful and again want to thank you for your time last Wednesday is an updated strategic plan. So we've got that we want to particularly in the environmental area make sure we have some thoughts on actions to achieve those goals. So that would be a potential addition for March 4th. Okay. Any other questions on the agenda? One of the things that I had to talk about schedules, which is for a little bit, I had forgotten personally that we are changing the schedule for April to be a second and fourth Mondays in April. Mr. Dresser, 20 second. Mr. Dresser brought that up a few weeks ago our last week and I think people Council should be aware. Once in a while in the past, we have, you know, even canceled meetings so people could take vacations and not miss meetings. And I don't think we need to do that specifically for me, but I do believe that if people are looking at vacation time, that's a good time to do it. And so that's it. Let's see here. I lost yen that last for Billy. Well, April May, the you know, when the season closes down, May schedule. And generally here's my problem. I've scheduled personally I'll tell you to be leaving town April 18th because I was thinking was the I've gotten written in my calendar when I didn't change it Monday April 1st and the second meeting April 15th and so I said okay I can leave after that meeting and then I'll be gone but I'll miss the first meeting in May well got watch my attention that we had changed that so I'll be missing the meeting on the 22nd and the one in May April 6th. So what could we just remind what the rationale for the 2nd and 4th in April? Why did we change that? Why did we go to the 2nd and 4th in April? I think you had a birthday and a personal thing. On the 15th, but that wasn't why we did that. Actually, the only thing that staff presented was that that was Passover. Yeah, I think that was that was the question. Yeah, you've been chastised before for not listening to all calendars. It's the 3rd Monday, so we've now printed all calendars and we pointed it out to you at that time and discussion. And so that's really respecting that. It was only noticing to you the occurrence of a holiday. Good of one of the faiths that are represented within the community. It's entirely up to you in terms of whether you feel it's a conflict. Well, I guess, you know, the members we have here, I'd like to respect it. Well, I've made plans. I mean, good. I mean, I've made plans around that. Okay. Because of that. Good. So no, we're just not going to be here. It's 20. I won't be here the 22 or the first one in May. So just if there's anything else that you know people won't be for here in May let staff know if you can so either we can cancel that ahead of time or rearrange something. And I already told Rhonda that I'll be missing the first meeting June 3rd. Okay, very good. How about if I go ahead and send out three more months with the can? I think we need updates to calendar. That'd be good. I'll do that tomorrow. Okay. Thank you. John, it sounds like you're in a bit of a predicament, but under section two-dash 49 of the municipal code, council member, who shall be absent for two consecutive meetings, without the prior approval of majority of all members. So you can ask for prior approval to miss two meetings and it will not be considered at all the face. Well, we'll give the council the opportunity to have an issue with me at some future point and we'll ask that, you know. But all that you think about it, you know? I want to ask you tonight for approval. All I'm saying is that this is not a first shattering. It's not like you're coming and asking forgiveness after you've missed two meetings in a row. You're in advance of it and if you inform your council members and they say that's fine, there's no harm, no foul. I'm giving in the opportunity to really load up the council meeting for when I'm not here, they can take care of business that, you know, I might have a problem with, so. And it gives us an opportunity to see how you do between now and then. There you go. You can just say it. I'm gonna crack down on it. Awesome. Thank you. All right then move we have some approvals meeting minutes for September 24th is there a motion to approve that's Fred I'm not there for that one Second that it's fine Jason seconds that comments All those in favour? Aye. Please signify a saying aye. Aye. Moving on to September 25th. Is there a motion for approval? So moved. Fred, and I'll second that one. I just... Go ahead, Jason. Comment about... In the paragraph starting line 70, Council approved the proposal. I think this- What's the committee going on? Sorry, in the 925 minutes, page 76, line 70. Great. This, wasn't this like a budget work session day? There weren't necessarily approvals granted around any of that. There was a majority support for some of those positions. Well, that's a special meeting and that was a motion. Is that right? Was it an actual motion? Okay. Good. It was a motion on a direction to staff to change those amounts in the budget, which was then brought back to you for. You're right, it's a work session, but the way issues are solved in work sessions is there's a motion and a motion to staff. Motion and failure to approve. You gave us direction, Ben. That appeared in the final budget. Very good. I guess I was in the minority in some of those I was thinking that might want to have that reflected. Which ones directly? You'd have to go back and look for sure. But I mean we can play the tape but there was a grant. There was no grant for that. Okay. Increasing the bonus by 100,000. I don't, I mean, basically I think I voted against the motion in general. I think you do so. I don't know, I might have been the only one, but let the minutes reflect that. Okay, that. Anything else? Has the minister. Motion to approve the special meeting minutes for September 25th. Please signify a saying aye. Aye. Opposed? January 22nd. Is there a motion to approve those? Fred Cooker. Second. Second by Chris Jacobson. No discussion? All those in favor? Please signify a saying aye. Aye. Any opposed? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I Okay. Line 186. At this time it was council's consensus to change the hours of the light to the ice rank. Dusk until nine. Okay so that was right. We were operating the light from dusk until nine. We were till eight during the week and nine on Fridays and Saturdays right and so. Correct. And you made it complete. We said it was doing nine. Okay. Right. Sorry. That are looking for the online consistent. Okay, right, sorry. That was unclear about the change there. Is that consistent? Anything else? Okay, so moving on, council comments. Jason, you have anything? Nothing for me. Okay. I wanted to say that this last weekend we had the first event on the base village for the entertainment district. I was out there to do other people's work and it seemed to be a very good event. I'd like to widen a lot of big major issues. I haven't heard anything. A lot of people were really enjoying it. Concert, a couple of nights before I had some of the country said why can't we have you know a few drinks I hear in the malls And we're not so that but come back this weekend and they came back and said wow this is pretty neat so I think it was a good event worked out well I heard good reports. I just wanted to pass that along It was certainly the buzz on the mountain everywhere I went that day really Everybody was talking about it. I don't know how many of them made it down there, but I wonder if you saw a lot of pictures of the whole group and it's pretty good sized group. Yeah. Was it filled? Yeah. It seemed to be. I got there a little late. We haven't had a debrief with the police department. Yeah, but that's forthcoming upon the chief's return. Good. Okay. Chris, do you have anything? No, I don't. Fred. Then there's our motion for adjournment. That's Fred. Second by Chris. All in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Thank you for a very constructive meeting tonight. Gentlemen, thank you. Good job. very constructive meeting tonight gentlemen. Thank you. Good job. Good job. Insurrection. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you. That's so much on, man.