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Good afternoon to all who are here at the April 20th meeting of Snowmass Village Town Council. And those here watching this evening we welcome you to enjoy a very interesting conversation as we on Town Council in the community learn a lot more. I sleep under the desk. Okay my colleagues are just having a good time up here. And we begin to talk about learn more about the GID and the Metro district responsibilities. And that's 187 page document for anyone that wants to hop on the website tonight and read everything you want to know and go to sleep. Then we'll get into design review consistency on single family homes. tonight and read everything you want to know and go to sleep. Then we'll get into design review consistency on single family homes. That's Julie N and then Andy's going to be talking about the ice drink or all of that. And with that, I'll ask Ronda to do roll call. Butler, Ear, Jacobson, circus, Madison, here, here. Okay, is there any public comment? Seeing no hands, and only four people here this evening. We'll move forward. Consent agenda, I will ask for a motion for approval. In your item, you want to pull out? We'll discuss it. I have a motion. Do I have a second? Second. OK. Any items you want to discuss? I did have several. Calendar for June, the second meeting of June, I will be out of town, Rhonda. So that's brand new. What's the date on it? That's June. Yeah, boy. And Bob, hopefully you're in town so you can. What's the date? It's the second, hold on. 15th. 15th. 15th. Think I'm out of town. On the 15th. Yeah. And that's new for me too. Oh. So what are we doing in that situation with the out of mayor and mayor pro-tim? We still have three. So that is still that a quorum. I still have four. I'm just seeing if you have anything scheduled for that agenda When you get those new dates could you please email him to me. Yeah, thank you What does our charter anticipated that is to happen John Yeah, both of them are a mayor pro pro tim around the town. We chairs a meeting. Pro tim to act. So someone can be appointed to temporary chair. Chris are you in town? I schedule a little up in the air, but I plan to be. Okay. Okay. We'll figure out someone between now and then. Okay. Clint, do you have anything on the 15th? There's an executive session to prepare a personality that that can be moved. We can move that. Is that? That's the only I've got today. We're not scheduling two months out yet. Okay, so let's just so note that two of us will be out of that On the fourth I had a question it had the roundabout as an administrative report What does that mean and then the second what is MBC X update? that mean. And then the second, what is NBCX update? NBCX is the process we've been going through to update and reduce our utility costs and environmental impacts and all the things we've gone through to improve the efficiency of buildings and snow melt road. Spent considerable amount of money and a bunch of research and a bunch of improvements this last winter. So it's really an update on how hard we've saved for snow and not road and other facilities and the MBCX. And the roundabout is something that was requested at a meeting by a snow mass acquisition company. It's my recommendation that we schedule that once we get the results back from the analysis and we haven't seen those yet. And so we've got as a question mark right now on the May 4th meeting because we don't know when we're going to get the results or what the results are going to say. So we've got that question mark in for May 4th, assuming that we're going to get some kind of analysis, but we don't really know that timing. Okay. You know, once that analysis shows up, you know, the direction might behave, let's get, let's talk to the neighbors, let's talk to the stakeholders, let's make a report to you guys and figure that whole thing out with some kind of public input process. But you haven't seen it yet. So we've just got a question marked in right now. Okay. And the only other item was, I'm getting questions from the community. We do that later. But the questions are how are we going to process or how are we going to get input on the community purpose in terms of what that process might look like. And I'm sure you haven't had two heartbeats to give that a thought. Well, I would defer a little bit to John, but I mean what I would imagine is that community purpose needs to be part of the public hearing process for the second, the second round of the preliminary round. So I would imagine that we're going to have to roll it into that review process. If the framework was accepted, I don't know about the right terminology, but at the sketch plan, the framework was a combination of potential cash and potential improvements and then that needs to be buttoned up through the public hearing process through their proposal and through what you guys do at preliminary. The community, I had several people ask me over the weekend, well how can we put our, how can we have input as to what you might do with that money? The safest way is always write a letter and that's stuff that we can stick in the record. I wish you a public hearing and then if you have additional meetings as part of that hearing process, I mean I think that's going to be up to you all those types of things. But if you get the question, the safest way is write a quick email or any email at letter and you can make a part of the record and that's always the easiest way to do it. Typically, the community purposes discussion should the applicant be asking for variations. They reach the threshold where they need those. It's typically done pretty much at the end of the preliminary. It's the last thing you undertake so that you've reviewed everything that's in that preliminary plan. You completely understand the scope of the plan, the necessity of the variations that they're asking for, and then the scope of those variations, so that you are well versed in what might be the satisfactory proposal from them for community purposes, there's six categories there. And so a complete understanding of the application is fundamental to saying, well, this is these are the community purposes that allow you to get past that threshold and enjoy those variations that you've requested. That's very helpful because it's a good answer back to it's too early because we haven't even started through preliminary. That's what I'm speaking about. In this case, I don't know that it was too early in sketch plan because they are asking to change previously approved community purposes and they gave you a framework which you didn't accept, you discussed, and you didn't find it to be a fatal flaw after you had that discussion. The only action that actually comes out of sketch plan is you may move forward to preliminary plan. And preliminary plan is, I don't want to say it's a vested decision, but it is then held up to final and final simply is making sure that everything that was approved in the plenary plan is executed properly and compliance with that. And if it is, so it's not a vested decision, but it is limiting to your ability to change it in the future. So it's almost like a conditional. If you fulfill all these conditions and everything is as you say it isn't in final you don't have a whole hundred discretion. That's extremely helpful. Okay. Any other comments from the consent agenda? Any item? Okay. Emotion for approval. So moved. Oh, we already did that. We already did that. All in support. Aye. Opposed? We're going to, there's no policy and legislative public hearing this evening and not a public hearing. So we're going to move to administrative reports. And this is a complicated GID and Metro district responsibilities. John Dresser is going to take the lead because he's the lawyer and he understands this. It's only complicated if you want it to be. Back in 2004 when the base village approval was completed, of the improvements for the infrastructure for based village were in essence really almost public improvements. And so the developers proposed and the town council of the day accepted, the creation of these two special districts to construct and maintain a list of improvements. What that did for the developers was allow them access to municipal bonds, which are tax exempt. So the interest rates on those, the payback on that is far lower than market interest rates. So in essence it was a contribution by the town of Snowmass Village to these two districts to allow those districts to use the town's credit and its tax exempt status to construct these improvements For the projects and I think you probably all read the list of projects and it initially started off as a general Improvement district which is created by the town council to apply to a, created by the town, by the town council, to create a district within the municipality that is specific taxing district and it's also where the improvements must be constructed. be constructed. That special district is actually controlled in, for the extent of its existence by the town council. You by being elected to the town council have become directors in the general improvement district. So the town runs that. The metropolitan improvement district is a slightly different organization. Well, it's still a special district enabled by Colorado statute. It is in essence controlled by the property owners within the district. So at the time this district was created, the property owners consisted of, well, the town for a small piece, and the majority of the property within this district was owned by Fresh Creek Land Company, and that was the developer, in essence, held by the ski company. After the approval, they partnered up with Interwest to form Interwest Fresh Creek construction and they essentially own all the property there. So all those property owners voted to create this district and then went and had a hearing at the district court over in Aspen in Picking County and that Metro district was created that is controlled by those property owners. I believe at this point that the majority is still controlled by the development interests over there. So we have these two districts and each one has a taxing authority and this is where the town in essence has some control over the metro district in that they limit the number the amount of the mill levy the number of mills that they can assess those property owners within the district and they set some other parameters on it. And I think you had all those, and I could summarize them. But the key one is the limit to the taxing authority. Other than that, the town doesn't really have, oh, I remember there was another one there was another big one in there that the town did avail itself of was to require that there be some credit enhancements by the developers. So there were some guarantees there, those of sense passed into oblivion. And there's also the requirement of certain projects to be built. I mean, these are all these things that planning and zoning rules apply. They're not exempt, like a school district would be exempt. So those things all happened here. They also were not allowed to pursue certain state and federal grants without our permission because those, it really is a situation where you're enhancing the developers credit by allowing them to do this and then if they didn't get grants, that's another form of tax incentive that you don't want to allow because you've already done it here in the financing program. So those were voted on. And when I say voted on, the property owners signed a ballot and it was a ballot because it was essentially one property owner and the district was created. Then there was a split in what actually the GID would own and then what the MID would own and who would construct each of these things. And then I guess it was a couple years later it became clear that there could be a large savings to transfer some of the obligations between the districts and come up with a revenue and expenditure agreement so that only one series of bonds would be issued. The costs of issuance for two series, one by the general improvement district, the GID, and then also a bond from the MIT. We're going to use up a lot of that capacity that was limited, and that capacity was limited by the town council. So that came out to 49.5 mils, and that was based on the And that was based on the credit history and scores for the town, as well as the investment bankers, bond council, and investment advisors that the town employed at that time. It's not that uncommon of afe or a smaller municipality to incentivize large-scale development. So it's not uncommon. It happens quite frequently. This is kind of a small area in terms of the metric district. I guess I should probably backtrack a little bit and let you know there are a lot of other types of special districts in Colorado and the town staff and the council research all those at the time. So there's local improvement district, business improvement district, the other ones that don't apply to the situation, but these are the ones they chose. So I think you all saw the list of projects, and I hope you jumped ahead in the base village general improvement district and metro district intergovernmental agreement, because they are both separate governments, and looked at those list of projects. And those were split out a little differently under the original documents. It doesn't really apply anymore. It gave you the original documents. They are thick, they are dense, they are kind of hard to read, which is why I directed you in the memorandum directly to the list of projects. So you could understand all those projects and you can kind of understand this by looking at that list, which ones have been built, which ones haven't been built, and where we can go from there. But that's the reason it's pretty much all under the Metro District responsibilities at this point. Under that intergovernmental agreement, the GID front loaded the Mill Levy revenues to build a reserve for operations and maintenance because all these things were going to be built by the Metro District paid for but there's still had to be a source of income to operate and I think it's really down to two things. It's a snow melt of the public streets around the base village and it's also the operation of the SkyCab aka Skittles which connects the mall and base village. So under the best project projections they could come up with at the time they being the financial advisors in conjunction with Mary Ann representing Mary Ann doing the financing for the GID, the town, and then the financing people, the finance people from the Metro District and the developer, that six mil cap on what the GID would get for operations maintenance. After that, I think it was a four year period starting, Maryann, you could correct me if I was wrong. We did three years at 20 mils. Right. And then we're allowed up to 10 mils, but we can only assess six mils until the bonds are paid off. Right. So the bonds will not be paid off probably for another 20, two or three years. And so that four mills is not available to us because it asked for a bond payment and that was part of the consolidation. I saw a finger in the ear. So is that, so the taxation process is based on assessment value. Yes, it's a property tax. I'm sorry. I'll have to say that. And your property tax. Is there any potential for revenue based on retail? Like these tips and piffs that for like in, in, in, like we did not do any tax increment financing involved with this. And that's usually not done in the metric. It's a property-based tax rather than they wanted to sell bonds in these amounts you really need a solid dependable tax base versus a sales tax that might fluctuate from year to year, especially in a resort economy. So for example, the retail areas that exist in that, I assume the retail areas exist in that space, right, for base for it? Could the GID or MID, whatever, mentor district, can they change that to assess it? Okay. No, they can assess a sales tax. Okay. It's property tax. John, so the purpose of the amendment in 2006 was what? I think I heard what it was, but would you just restate it? Well, it was a Cost of issuance savings and a streamline in a responsibility. Okay, okay, so it was not only I Can't remember the exact savings and maybe she will but I believe that it was close to a million dollars by Consolidating and just issuing this one series of bonds Right, and have separate entities do it. Okay, and then the contracting rather than having the town Do certain the GID do certain construction things putting all that construction element on to a Developer control so they essentially got the money and it tax exempt, right? But then they got all the responsibility. But understand, the joint limit between the two entities is 49.5 mills, based times whatever the assessed value is of the property in the district. And then it's just divided up amongst all the kind of many owners and everything. All the property of the property in the district. And then it's just divided up amongst all the kind of many owners and everything. All the property of all the property of the system. Based on their individual appraised value. Access value. So I'm reading this and there it talks about, it talks about two types of bonds. It to me, it sounds like there is a revenue, there's a variable interest rate bond that is issued initially. And then in a few years that's supposed to be paid off with the proceeds from a second bond issue, which is a general obligation spot. Yep. Did that all take place? That's all taken place and they've refinanced everything since then. Okay. In that amendment, and I guess in that amendment or in the directions for operating that amendment, I forget what the official name is, but there was one clause that seemed to allow a tax rate, a mill levy in excess of the 49 and a half is that, and I'll try to find it while we're talking. But has that, is the mill levy still 49 and a half? Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm not aware of anything you'd love. I'll see if I can find it all. I'm looking for it. I think I'll reach towards me. It's towards the end. And the 49 and a half is between the two districts. Still not the 6th. The GID, 43.5 for the Metro District. So it's a total of 49 and a half. So at the end of the day, how would you characterize the town's involvement or responsibility to manage as we go forward. Manage is a GID. Yeah. Well, I think it's extremely simplified by the amendments and the conditions. You simply need to keep operating. The amenities improvements that you are charged with. Now the GID owns the Skycare and the GID leases that to the ski company. The ski company operate generally the winter and then the GID operates it generally during the summer. Now the GID then contracts back with the ski company to operate in a prudent fashion and the GID thought that was prudent because they are a regular operator of aerial conveyances. So I don't want to see it's a complicated project for management whatsoever. You probably need to come up to a phone if you're going to have a microphone. If you look at page 192, your packet, and I don't, you can read it, but it talks about the detail. Page 192. 192, right? Oh. Well, I didn't really, I'm talking about that. I mean, I shouldn't say, I didn't really focus on that, because you, when you do the GID budget every year, discuss what those operating parameters are. And it's my understanding from Mirian that, originally, when base village stole the economic crisis came in, it was kind of a doomsday picture. And it hasn't really changed in terms of financing, but they've come to a standardized formula for what the GID is actually responsible for, what was considered that the GID in terms of operating hours would be responsible for what was considered that the idea in terms of operating hours would be responsible for. And things beyond that, the entities that want it to continue have agreed to pay those additional hours of operation. John, IE marketing. That's the big example. John, if you look at, I guess it's page 107 of the packet. Under there's under the section E, that second paragraph, the last portion says, notwithstanding the forgoing mill levy cap. Nothing in this service plan shall prevent a district from levying in support of obligations issued refunded or otherwise restructured pursuant to subparagraph C. Such mill levy as is necessary to pay the principal and interest of such obligations when do. That sounds to me like it's a way to be able to tax in excess of that 49 and a half. No. Not. No. It's in the enabling petition. Okay. And that's approved. And I believe what this means is that if the milleve where to go down it can be raised back up. I don't believe that that allows you to be having any. You can't go over 49.5. Okay. Right. Because see that section C does does have a statement in it that the that basically you can't exceed 49.5. So all right. I'm sorry. So I guess one of the questions that I guess I have and is we've had you know any number of letters from the property owners in base village who, you know, complain vehemently about their, the level of property tax or the excess level of property tax that they pay as part of the MID and as part of the GID districts. You know 49.5 mills to at least to me is just a number and I don't understand I don't know how much that number is in relationship to what you know what property what the property tax number what the mill levy number is for say property tax in snowmass. Outside of the district. I was going to say 39.8 because that was last year I looked at it. Okay. There you go. 42 plus 49.5. That was the last year I looked at it, but okay there you go 42 plus 49.5 that helps so it is substantial But I think when you hear that argument that these are Public improvements and everybody gets to use them, but were the only ones paying for them? Those improvements were able to be completed based on this reduction in financing fees. And that came from what already existed here. So the community committed that credit, that enhancement, that reduction. It's almost akin to a sales tax reduction incentive for a big factory, or other, if a big factory were, if we had an industrial park, there's typically a property tax reduction to lure companies in that reduction can go anywhere from 10 to 15 to 20 years to induce that company to locate their business here, because there are benefits to the town. And so that's what this town, I mean it's not, it's, I don't wanna say it's, 100% fair distribution, but it's not all or nothing which has been presented as in the public domain by members of the Metro District. Okay, does that respond to? That's a question that you ask. So, thank you. I'm not saying that either point, each point has its own validity and strength and to evaluate that 11 years from when these things were created and for the reasons they were created It may not be fair. It may seem very unfair to the early buyers of this project who are bearing that weight on their assessed value because the lack of building of other enhanced improvements to this property keeps the assess value of the other contributors to those districts, maybe not where it was projected to be as fast as it was projected to be, but. It doesn't integrate the contribution of the community as it existed before base village was conceived and implemented. So fast forward, let's say, 2019, when we're supposed to have additional buildings and additional property on mine. Right. If I were an owner over in Capitol Peak, what impact might I anticipate from the additional units as well as commercial coming online? Well, in essence, to me, it's just going to shorten the time for the pay off. Okay. Because there's more money coming in. Okay. Assume me. And I don't want to make this assumption. I'm not an answer product. Projections. However, one would assume that an improved property versus an unimproved property would generate more tax revenue. So the percentage goes down or no, they're whatever their payment is stays the same. It's just the payoff date is advanced. Essentially. So at the end of the day, to try to recap, just so I understand a little bit along Bob's line, the people who purchased those properties, whether they claim or not were presented to documents understood the details. And at the end of the day, if they had an issue, should they be bringing it to the town or should they be bringing it to the parties that the other parties involved? Well, I'm not privy to the transactions, the sales transactions, but I assume that they were the disclosure of special districts that exist on the property that they were contemplating purchasing The disclosures were made that was a in your statement. I think on B was they understood those Disclosures now that I can make no representation I In I can't let you rephrase it like this. In the potential circumstance that during the transaction they were not duly represented or the terms were not disclosed, what is the liability the town may or may not have relative to that? Let's say there was a lack of disclosure, which some have claimed. I can't believe that there could possibly have been a lack of disclosure, first of all. Second of all, these were all publicly recorded documents. And I'm pretty sure, I mean, the standard contract, I'm not saying that the seller used the standard contract, but to have created a special district that applies to property, then turn around and sell that property without disclosing the existence of the special district, would be most difficult. Because then we went to their responsibility, and I don't think I think the responsibility is after the metric district is created is to have representation and I don't necessarily mean legal representation within the district. The situation we're in and it's kind of analogous to the way some of the early members of the Metro District feel. Would it be fair to say that if there were a lack of disclosure, it would probably, the light would shine the brightest on the broker or the agent that were making those transactions? I wouldn't speculate on that one way or the other, and I don't want to say what's fair or what isn't because with however many units or over there that have been conveyed to buyers, I'd be willing to say that some were aware and some weren't and some were understanding and some weren't. But, and I don't want to get into really discussing sales agents, brokers, et cetera, their responsibilities to their clients. So, I don't think that's fair. I think it's safe to say that if there were mistakes in disclosures, etc. that Jill and the public would know very well because there would be ongoing litigation regarding that subject and understand it's been quite sometimes when those initial phases for sold and we've seen litigation but it hasn't been on that subject. So if let's go back to those early years as this was formed and I'm going to pick up on Chris's question questions. It would, in reading all of this and then going through the schedules that I would anticipate as a purchaser I would have gone through, I could have surmised that there would have never been a downturn, economic downturn. I could have surmised this is a pretty good deal to get into that I'm going to appreciate. We all know what properties we're doing back then. No one could see the crystal ball of the crash. And now the only way out to protect my investment is to hang on for the long term unless I want to get rid of it and take a loss. That's, I mean, that sounds like a conclusion on investment advice or strategy that I'm not qualified to come. I didn't expect you to, but I mean, I'm trying to make this simple for simple minds like mind, because I've done stupid stuff. I mean, things like, that's one way to look at it. There was one conclusion that you made in there that other. What you really have to understand is the way that you framed that statement was almost from a pure investment point of view. And a lot of the property that is purchased and owned in Snowmass Village is not purchased for an investment strategy or decision. It's purchased either from a legacy point of view or simply I want to have a place to come out there and ski and enjoy the mountain lifestyle, and I'm gonna own it for 25 years, and what happens, and then no one won't know. So your conclusions are in some way an investment-based conclusion, and there's a lot of other motivations for ownership of snowmass property. That is correct. Your spot on there. But to take up something, John, that you were sort of proposing a while back, which was the intent by 2015, the original intent by 2015 was to have a lot more buildings, a lot more units, a lot more owners than there are. I think that's clear from the phasing and all the documents. And had that taken place, then the time frame for which these bonds would be paid off would appear to be somewhat, potentially be somewhat less. Could not would, could. Could be, paid off faster. Yeah. But there's still a component in there that requires the ongoing existence of the metro improvement district to. Yeah, operations are made in its existence. Nothing changes there. I mean, the operations and maintenance go on year by year to year, year after year, there's a budget for those things. Right. Right. That has to be covered. And in that scenario where you get to a certain point, the representation within the governance of the Metro District would not be as one side. I don't want to say one side, but... Overweighted. Overweighted. Thank you. You're welcome. I don't like using that word. I had another question and one might say I'm speculating. But as we know with the next phase of proposed development that we've got through sketch plan, it has been rumored that the lots are going to be sold to SkiCo. We don't know the nature of the deal. And sunrise. Now, I was looking at these documents trying to figure out if that were the case, how that would impact the metro district or would it at all? Okay, so they would still be obligated to pay their fair share on those properties. Well, they would pay the assessed value on those properties. Well, they would pay the assessed value in those properties. And you would hope that if they're going to pay up front for those properties, which I don't know the due, that there might be a reassessment of them as unimproved properties or partially improved because on some of that property, there's already a garage constructed constructed so there's some value there But you would hope that that would be a huge motivating factor for that for the new buyers to add those completed improvements and increase the assess value across the district Okay, is there a difference between residential and commercial tax rate as it relates to the MID and CID? GID? Well, it's the properties class wide by the assessment. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. That's the right. And the mills, the mills are the wrong way. It's really going to be the assessed value between commercial and residential. Well, the assessed values are the assessed values and then there's a commercial rate and a residential rate. Okay. And are they close to one another? Do you know what they are? 7.96% for residential and 29% for commercial. So commercial would, since in theory the hotel would, and the owners of the hotel would have a higher property tax contribution to the MIDC, GID? 350% or so. Okay. It's going. Okay. Phew. percent or so. Okay. The current owners are there aren't being penalized for being the only owners it's just reducing the total amount of time it's being to be paid off. So that there's there their portion is not going to in decrease as development increases. Right. Unless there's a scenario where that might be different because they could have assessed values that on 49.5 would generate excess what they need. So maybe they could pay them off-asser or they could lower the millivere to keep with the schedule that's in the bond. So I mean, that's highly speculative. But I just want you to know there are possibilities remote as they may be, but they do exist. I'm not necessarily indicating a direction, but if the lots were sold as rumored, or so I haven't heard that rumor, anything that sold individually with the exception of CCO has to come for council approval, correct? Yes. And that's just sort of a preface for saying, should there be the will of the council to somehow assist or change these arrangements or assist the people that are complaining? Would there be the mechanism for the potential purchaser to do that, to somehow ameliorate the complaints of the people that are feeling that their rates are too high or whatever it is. Well, you're asking me to speculate again. So I really won't. That's fine. I'll just say, I'll give you a great lawyerism. It's not impossible. Sounds good. I'm done. Are there any questions about these if not, I was going to go to the list of projects. I just had a question about the the Sinclair Meadows is part of the Mead Register, great. So do they have the same taxes then as the people in base village? I'm not sure Sinclair Meadows is part of the Metro District. I don't think it's- It's not part of the- They were part of it. They were a separate PUD. Okay. Now, when these, when this massive large plan community, which is what it is under the Colorado Common Interest ownership act, was created. They came through preliminary and it was all one PUD. And then after preliminary they asked to separate into three PUDs. The base village PUD, the Sinclair Meadows PUD, and then the Fannie Hill Cabin slash town homes a camera with exact title now, PUD. But there were linkages between those PUDs, but I haven't looked at the district for a long time, but I do not think that they are in that. Okay. Okay, on page 180 is the same okay so I so I we have this list of projects right is there an obligation to build unless the town says we're not interested. For example, this Cabralay landing site over its nomass center. That is kind of a misnomer because the landing site that they're talking about is in base village. Oh, that's so okay. The way it's identified so it's not be confused with the sky cab skittles. It's a landing site because it was at that time the applicant under the snowmass center of PUD was a different party so all the town could do was ensure that a connection be there and then the proposal was to have that at the time. It was in preliminary plan at the time. This is historical but the snowmass center actually came in with a POD application, a four base village and they were in the high 85-90% range of being completed with their preliminary plan when the town council of the day said, you know, we really feel uncomfortable about going through a final approval with you not knowing how across the street is going to line up with what you're proposing. Would you please agree to hold your application in a Bayance, and we will give it priority after base village. And the applicants at that point said yes. And for they were ready to come back and restart or begin. I don't want to say begin again continue that application. They were no longer the applicants and the owners were in common with the ownership of base village. So that's kind of a misleading title. And then here down on number eight. Well, we have a conference center. I'm not aware we have a movie and community center and artisan center and learning human and other similar development center. I think they completed the conference center portion of which is what the plans actually came to But certainly something discussed Yep, we move forward with the applicant Who is a very different entity than the MIT? And I have one other question on this list. It's a latter fire truck. My understanding that they didn't purchase it was a least. They ended up paying it out. And it's done. OK. Fire just owns that. OK. owns that. Okay. Anybody else? And last but not least, this transit center was an interim transit center. It remains so. Oh, Kidoki. Got it But her main so under an agreement with the town right which was the interim building seven I can't remember the exact name of it, but it was It was approved by the town to be operating this cell because you were calling when they went on hiatus against when the economic world changed. It was the guts of the transit center were finished but the amenities around basically the vertical circulation to the plaza level were not and they had no intention of doing it and at that point they want Some other Enhancements to do with building eight and changes to 13 a and b and To get those they proposed to do that on their basis because it was It wasn't inoperable although although the interior, the operating pieces of getting the buses through, and then they promised the internal connections and the temporary facades and that kind of stuff. Do you want me to go further? Well, I could go to, I was going to talk a little bit about the escalator. Yes. The escalator is, I mean, something that was presented by members of council, but the majority went with the single escalator switching directions. There is a provision in that agreement to re-examine the efficiency of that. And I don't think that time has come yet to the point. I think it is to be reevaluated prior to the completion of Building 7 because it is still interim Building 7. Okay. Got it. That's kind of what I remember from way back when. I imagine that former councilman is reminded of that because he was very dismayed by the lack of strong vertical circulation from the transit center up to the plaza level. But he was unable to carry the day. Right. Other questions for John? It's clear as mud. Oh, it's really pretty clear. It just has a lot clearer than when I walked in. It's just the reason it's clear is because the World Economic Situation changed what the best thinking of the day in 2004 and followed by the best thinking of the day when the bond structure was changed. So at that. I have one other question for you, John. Let's say base village, I'm going to fast forward and I probably won't be alive when all this happens. Base village is done. I heard the newspaper you're writing. But you know that's totally inappropriate for me to see that. You would have lived a long time though. Life is uncertain. There you go. That's kind of my life and in my head today's world of what I do but are we obligated to stay with this structure if base village is totally done you have to define we GID the GID in the metro district because they have operation and maintenance responsibilities that go on until the improvements are no longer servicing the district. Okay. Good luck to that mayor. Well, think about it. They're going to have to go on. It's going to take them 30 years to pay off the improvements that they've done. In 30 years some of those are going to be obsolete. So they'll have to pass another bond to do them. Provided that the members of the governor district believe that those improvements are necessary. It won't be the judgment of a developer in the town council. It'll be the members of the district. Okay I have no other questions and does anyone else anything else for John? Thank you John. My pleasure I'm sorry it took so long. Clint predicted 20 minutes so I only prepared for 20 minutes. That's never right with this time. Yeah, I told you I don't know how it's been two hours So just go ahead and say you're welcome, and I'll say you well You want to play a 20 minutes? No, I don't make these I guess the whole I don't don't don't deflates my prediction But I got my still was in my overall prediction Yeah, when he starts whipping Julie Julianne will know it was really. Julianne, welcome. It's good to see you. We're going to move into the design review consistency for single family homes. So Julianne, this is also should be a simple issue, but it's not as simple as, well, I had hoped it would be, but please proceed. Well, I'm here tonight really to respond to apparently a concern that Council had expressed earlier in the year regarding consistency of design review. And I believe at that time it was focused on what, it's up in Sinclair Meadows, who was a quite modern home, being built, received approvals to proceed, received their building permit, and there had been some complaints from community members regarding that. And I think part of it was it was under construction, it was very visible. There's a lot of white tie-back on the building, so it really kind of stood out probably more so than, especially for folks who are coming for the summer, et cetera. But we went ahead and provided counsel with a briefing paper that explained how that went through a review. It did not go through review with the Snowmass Homeowners Association because Sinclair Meadows was exempted from that review. And that was part of council's decision when they approved that PUD as part of the base village project. So they have their own set of rules, their own review committee, if you will, and they make their own decisions without the benefit of having feedback from the homeowners association. So, in that paper, we also just gave a little background that communities don't usually regulate design review of single family homes. And we're kind of unique in that regard here in Snowmass Village. And I don't know exactly when that started happening, but it goes quite a waste back. So I did also include just the document that Somas Home Under Association, the Design Committee, uses in terms of they're looking at a single family residence when they're doing their review. I wasn't sure if you were concerned about their consistency or just this kind of anomaly, if you will, with having a different organization reviewing the design for Sinclair Metals. So, who on that Sinclair Metals? Who is on that design review committee? Do you have them to know? I do not know. All the individuals I know that Andrew Light is the final sign off on that. Do you, does your office have a copy of the Sinclair Meadows review standards? Yes. Could you provide it to us please? Yes, we can. I mean, I'm particularly interested in to see how it differs from the Snowmass Homeowners Association. I think I'm speaking at a term, but I'm presuming it's a more modern approach. I mean, the document that you see in here is pretty general. And they, as I recall, the one time when I took a look at it, it was a little bit more specific in terms of materials, et cetera. And I think the one thing, too, to keep in mind, if you're gonna compare those two documents, and I don't have that. But those are quite a bit smaller lots than what we're seeing elsewhere in the village. Is that, sorry, just out of curiosity. Does that, can for, do we have, do we have a lot of regulations or square footed area regulations that are across the whole township? No, there are lots were established through their PUD. So they're setbacks and everything were established through those guidelines that were set up as part of that PUD Which would be very different than Milton ranch for instance. That's the most surprising Thing that I see visually when you look at how close that those two houses are to each other That's really impressive that so there isn't there isn't an overall Lot or code regulation that goes. No, I asked twice of done. There are zone districts, but there's many zone districts. And they're different. And then zone districts can also be varied and changed by a PUD. And if you think of as PUD as an overlay and that's what you've kind of done by requests and approval by the council that's what you get and for a while this community went to PUD only basically there were some there were some zone districts but a lot of the undeveloped tracks were basically you had to go through a PUD to have a council end up approving the dimensional limitations of particular neighborhoods and lots there it and it's funny because you will have actually neighborhoods which don't even have the same standards within them there'll be different standards for different lots so it's a way of acknowledging the unique topography, snowmass village. And I don't remember, Sinclair Metals. The employee housing was built by related, right? And then conveyed to the town. No, it was all for sale. All for sale. That's right. So then the owner of the balance that where the single family homes are. Yes. Who owns that property? Is it is a chaffered light or it is now. Okay. Except for what's been conveyed. Right. Okay. She said the balance. You mean the unsold lots. Yes, right. I think it's, I just looked up it says, Sinclair Meadows holding company. But you went a little deeper, you would find that that was owned by, you know, I'm not sure the name. I don't know if it's too much holding company could have been an interim because there were a couple, the original owners out of the PUD was Brush Creek Land Company, the ski company. Their restrictions on how they could sell, which we discussed heavily with regard to substantial completion of the employee lots. And they sold it to a group that I can't remember. It could have been Snowmass holding company. Well, it says the Stinclair Meta's holding company has owned it since 2010 after buying it from Alpine bank. That's it then. That company is front, not for Android Light, I believe is the president of that company is, in the front, not for the end of the light, I believe is the president of that company. Yes. They have other investors who, which I'm not privy to, but they bought it out of a foreclosure from the entity that bought it from the ski company. After the PUD was approved and got caught in the global economic condition and then when Alpine bank put it up for sale the ski company I mean the groups no-mass holding company, whole co whatever when you if I made a list of all the acronyms and names for everything that's going base village and companies etc. It also says here mark it says Sinclair Meadows has its own three-person design review board that includes light and other homeowners in the neighborhood. So the guy that owns the land or the president is a guy signing off one design. That's what this item says. I mean so interesting. Pretty awesome. It lives there or will live there. He will live there. But I was really hurt. I was really hurt you not to personalize this. I'm just going after conflict issues. I get it, but when you're a homeowner in common it's not a conflict and understand that Chafan and Lighthead nothing to do with the approval of this land they are the third subsequent owner they got it the way it was approved by this council and town in 2004. And it was different ownership and it could be that and I wasn't here then, in this position, that the council of the day was comfortable with their own individual design review and the standards that they proposed to implement and those were inherited by Chafan like so I urge you to keep the personalities out of it because They are in no way responsible as for approved or anything to do with the structure of that. I wasn't going to go here because it then goes on to say the then council also approved the location of the free market lots which includes the two that pierced the ridge line. So it was the then council that approved it. My God, I wasn't on it. Yes, yes. But it's and if the entity owned by Chaffin Light had in fact owned it for a little while and waited for a rebound in the economy and sold it as a whole, I don't know, it could be kidney and associates and we'd be screaming about that house being built under their watch, but they would be in no way responsible. They would only be operated under the guidelines that were approved by the council. So is it take away question? Why is it we don't try to get towards consistency with the snowman's homeowners? I think we do. This is just an example where there was a political decision made to we're not going to have it in a circumstance. And this is it. I mean, that's. And we can't change that now. One, if you take that view, it's kind of, I don't want to say diametrically, but not in line with what I said, where the applicant at the time presented a structure to ensure a design that that council felt was okay. Okay. They brought the structure over review committee with standards and now maybe those weren't in the taste that a segment of the community likes now but the council of the day bought off on it and maybe didn't feel that that neighborhood needed to be within the snowman's home owners. And just from an historical perspective, the town council in the late 2000s made the same decision with one of the neighborhoods that they developed, rodeo place. Yep, that's exactly right. And they bought off on a color scheme that was not generally accepted as soon as those houses started going up. the town changed their decision and placed the neighborhood into the snowman's homeowner's association, which is what they did with the other single family housing development acrossings that was immediately put into the homeowner's association. So, so the town council did the same thing and substituted their design taste on rodeo place Not the rodeo. Yes, I'll take credit for it. I think I like colors. I think you were only on planning commission so you were only recommending at that point See that's called a lifeline So, to understand those design parameters, and maybe it's a lesson to future councils, but it's really water that's water that's going to be on Pascal, and into the ocean at this point, but maybe there's a lesson to be learned there in reviewing future PUDs and Requiring that Or strongly suggesting it's really Difficult to require it Talking about the houses that are closed close together. There's nothing in here that Designates houses that are close close together there's nothing in here that designates setbacks where am I missing it? There's there's specific building on the left. When a building envelope essentially works like a setback they establish where on that lot the house can sit and it might be varied a little bit based on the topography of the site. So they're not all going to be exactly the same in terms of a front setback or you know side setbacks etc. Yeah, just so it's the end will have not that. Looks like California. That's even a lot like. No, that's a very different concept than building on zero lot like. OK. OK. So I wasn't sure if there was some specific direction that you wanted to provide. But you guys were just asking for it at that point. And this is I just want to see what it looks like. And then you know what the sync what it looks like and then you know what okay Sinclair Meadows looks like and then based on what I see So maybe there'll be another step maybe they won't okay Not it's not a direction, but my Thoughts are that It would be great. I don't think it will actually happen, but I'm just going to say it as a general policy idea. To start to move away from these little subsections towards a more broad, town-wide code compliance, I personally, as a homeowner, think that the homeowners' association design guidelines are somewhat ridiculous and constricting and old-fashioned and boring and I could continue on, but when they're going to, I mean, in terms of colors and these kinds of selections, similar to a lot of the rules. The rules and the homeowners association that I'm somewhat familiar with are of a certain generation, of a certain mindset, when the idea was that houses were going to be built in the sort of light touch component and wildlife and everything was just gonna move through it. And there were not gonna be any dogs or gardens or any of these other things. So you can't put offenses, you can't have anything that's over 18 inches high. There are just a lot of things that don't really seem to comport very well with some of the, let's say, even contemporaneous thinking about sustainability. Let's say if you want to have a garden or something like this. And the fact that the way they're drawn ties them back to the deeds on the properties themselves and makes it difficult to change them. So I'm told because you have to go back to the bank or the mortgage holder to actually amend that, seems to be a recipe for slow movement, slow progress. And maybe that's okay, but this is my two cents on, sorry, but that's my two cents. And then I'll, so I'll, and I'll get my, my most unfortunate thing was to declare meadows in terms of the modern house on the corner is that any other house is just too darn close to it because I really like looking at it as its own monolithic plinth and structure. Now we got this other thing it's nice looking too. I live right across from it so I have to look at all of them I wish it it was a sheet meadow and something else, but it's not. But that's my two cents in the John. May I question, Councilman Jacobson, your honor? Go ahead, go ahead. Were all those covenants and restrictions disclosed to you at the time of your purchase? It was a shady deal. Care to explain? They were. They were. And in all honesty, they were. And I'm not saying they're not valid. And I'm not legally valid. And I'm not saying that a lot of homeowners may appear. And the heat of the moment when you're moving and stuff, we probably didn't read every single one. I'm not questioning the fact that they were presented. What I'm just saying is that as we move forward, having worked in a lot of different jurisdictions and construction in my life, the concept that you can have, and I've had both. I mean, you know, Ross, California, you know, you have to put in exactly the type of window they want. You know, these things like this. So it exists everywhere, but I think in general, the Home Motors Association, to have them, to have a Home Motors Association control design review, I think is maybe... Well, I'll tell you, it's far more difficult for a municipality to do it than common ownership. Well, that's really true, but in my experience, municipality tends to make rules that are interpreted in a, I don't know, in a more standard way than whether this, this... Well, I tell you, it actually shifts more with the waves of the elected council from time to time and can have a more dynamic effect on values, which is... Well, what do you mean? I think the people in the Home Wars Association would say that the values are there because they adopted these design standards in the beginning and they have risen to this type of value and the way to protect that value is to continue. Now on the other side, one of the arguments that you made was with regard to are more current thinking regarding environmentalism and that kind of stuff and the town that is something they can regularly and they have adopted the green the building code so design this is going to be cliche but it's in the eye of the beholder and there's more of a longevity with a group of common ownership and there is with no offense to you all there. Yeah. So Willow or the wind of the political day. Yeah, that's very true. So you got to question me a lot. It was my turn. Okay, let's, can we move on? Don't have a dog in the race. Okay. Let's move on to thank you very much Julian and ice rink update Andy The ice rink that hardly happened Hi everybody. How are you? Did they get you and you did get the SGM and out? I am ready yet, but sorry that was not in there. We can go over that. That was my fault and not Ronda. She told me to say that. It was my fault. Anyhow. Yeah. So I didn't really prepare anything for you other than we can go through that memo from SGM. I can give you kind of a timeline, kind of want to hear from you guys. What would you like to hear from me about the ice rink? I know that we, I think Chris was on council when we talked about the shading. Yeah, it's part of the presentation here. Even with shading would have made a big difference. No. About this year. About this year. So let me just kind of give you a timeline of what. So we officially opened on December 19th and we went through about January 9th and then after that you know it was although it didn't close officially that's basically all we got out of it this year and as you know it was just warm weather and even if we were making ice at night we were losing more during the day than you know then we could keep. So to answer your question, shade would have helped a little but it was just so warm out. A full roof, refrigeration, you know the whole shooting match would have been, what have helped? It's my understanding though that when the base was laid down, it wasn't level. It was probably, I was told up to about an eight inch drop from one end to the other. So this year the base was better than it has ever been. And, and her team, getting it level and, and compacted, was, was definitely the best this year. There is about a five foot fall from one end of the rank to the other, or the rodeo arena, from basically the ticketing booth as you walk in from the rodeo entrance side to the bullpen side. There's about a five foot difference. So they have to go in and basically cut all of that out and then put it back and then compact it. This year was definitely by far the best. You went out there and it was very smooth and very flat. They went out and rolled it and can explain all the ins and outs of that. But I have to say that this year was by far the best. Having really cold weather and having a really good base, it would have been the best of both worlds. And unfortunately, we just didn't have both of them. Well, I think one of the biggest issues is the maintenance. Right? I mean, we got to have a real plan because when it's... I mean, you just can't throw water on top of it if it snowes. I mean, we got to clear the snow off. It's got to be, you know, it's got to be done correctly otherwise. It really doesn't work. So I'd really like to see us come up with a real formalized plan. I mean it sounds like the fire department is going to be able to help. And if they can that's great. I mean if we could get them involved in some sort of maintenance schedule, I mean, the biggest thing is getting the snow off of it. I mean, I spend more time shoveling the ranked and I do actually skating down there. Which is fine. I mean, it's good exercise, but it's not why I go down there. Yeah, let me be clear about the fire department. They said that they were willing to help when they had time and definitely at the beginning when the initial flooding happens. But we did talk about them coming down nightly and maybe flooding and they just couldn't commit to that. But they said they would help out in other ways that they do have several guys that are skaters anyway and that they would be down there. So like I said, we'll continue to work with them and see if we can get them on board somehow. And I totally agree with you that we need, it's the maintenance that kills us. And having the manpower out there early morning is the best time. As you know, we've been in here and Jack has been in here and talked about it. That 5.30, 4.30 to 6.30 timeframe in the morning is a great time to build ice. And then 9 o'clock till 11 o'clock at night is another great time to build ice. It's hard to find somebody who can fit those two time slots. But you know, with the time and if we're going to move forward, Clinton and I have had this conversation about being prepared for that and hiring somebody, making sure that they're able to get going when we are ready. Now, this ties into the whole entryway planning. And we did have several community sessions on the entryway planning, and then it just basically died. And people keep asking, where are we with entryway planning? I'd hate for us to do put a lot of money into something that's going to change. So I guess one of the questions for a client would be when might we get at entryway planning or council? When we want to see that out of work agenda? Yeah. I know Clint, not to answer your view, but but you put it in the capital improvement projects kind of process there. To share my thoughts, I think that the ice rink is one component of this piece of property that we own that seems to be caught in the emotional transition of trying to move from a piece of property that has been a labor love for part of our community that's really created a sense of community pride that people have donated their time to, and we know a lot of the players in that regard. And yet, within that, I think objectively speaking, remains a highly underutilized asset in terms of its monetary value, in terms of its location, in terms of its aesthetic impact as you enter the town in terms of its strategic location to the Rec Center and in terms of exploiting it or you know taking advantage of it in a more maybe positive linguistics and a year-round sense and I guess in a way I'm mostly speaking to my council members and the public and stuff and but to staff too. I a way I'm mostly speaking to my council members and the public and stuff and to staff too. I'm going to continue to maintain just my opinion and not speaking for council that this is a tough area because of those emotional intersections and the time that's going on. But that all being said, I think it is potentially our responsibility in our charge to try to come up with a grander plan. And I think that the scenario that we see currently and trying to manage the ice ring and stuff is that if that's what we want as a town, we want these sort of a little bit half-baked approaches of these seasonal things that compete with each other, you know, a horse rink that needs very soft ground, an ice rink that needs hard ground, no coverage for horse rink, you know, these things. We're going to have to decide whether as a counselor or not, we're going to get down and see if we can come to a solution. And I continue to maintain the idea that this is an extraordinary location and extraordinary value to the town. It's really true. It really is part of our entryway. To your point, Mark, I am ready to start on the entryway planning as soon as possible if it is the will counsel to maybe bring it apart from capital improvements or to accelerate all of that process. And on the more particular part of the ice rink, I am not in support of spending any more money in the gamble that it's not going to be sunny and it's going to be warm because I'm betting against everything I know about the environment and everything else that's going on in the world to make that bet. And I think we do it each year. I don't know if I like the sort of this emotional thing. We just do it and we go there and it's great that we've had these donations. It's great that we're there, but I'm ready to take a step back and take a much harder look at the whole thing and look at the options for what's the best circumstance for the rodeo, what's the best circumstance for that lot, what's the best circumstance for the rodeo, what's the best circumstance for that lot, what's the best circumstance to make ice. I do read, I know that the group that was working and I did not attend any of those sessions came up with kind of a semi-shaded multipurpose year-round approach. That was a couple of people's ideas for sure. Yeah, well, and all that's all kind of stalled. That's all kind of stalled. So I'd ask, I don't know what the other will of the other council members. It might be something we want to begin to get back on the planning. Fred, for us. Why, just to continue, like my two cents would be great, do it. I'd like to do it in a real way. The multi-purpose thing as a person who spent a lot of time in construction and management of projects like this. If we're gonna talk about it, let's really talk about it. How the hell does the thing work? Excuse my language. How does it work? How do you transition from a rodeo rank to an ice rank? Okay, this is not Denver Coliseum where we have like, we're gonna do that in 24 hours. We have the, you're talking about management costs, is what's the reality of that? What's the real functional reality of that? I personally have seen the plans. I applaud and appreciate all the work. I don't see it, you know? So if we're gonna let go of ice, let's let go of ice and find the other real program. If we're gonna have real ice, you know, the, I'm gonna, sorry, and just for one more second, then I'll stop. The opportunity I do think for ice in the country right now is great. I think the fact that the Aspen Junior Hockey group is bringing in a junior's team, it's going to take up a huge amount of time at the arc and the ice garden. Those places are going to be completely overwhelmed. I've already heard from a lot of the local figure skating people that they don't have enough time. When we talk about bringing driving in revenue here in terms of tourism and families, hockey is in the fourth position as the most popular sport in the country and continues to be gaining ground. So I just share that with people in terms of really thinking about where the future is and then in terms of our discussions of like iconic treasures and that possibility. I still maintain the posture that we could have a very successful snowmass rodeo that could move down to Kozy Point if the other groups were willing to work with us in terms of the county and be part of that whole equestrian facility in a very successful way and actually extend the borders of snowmass village. So I'm ready to look at it, but let's do it in a real way. Let's crunch the numbers. Let's see how the thing works. We've spent the three or four years that I've been listening to discussion, you know, talking about the chiller, talking about whether we could get this donation. You know, if the wills there, I would love to work with Council on this. The difficult, emotionally... Well, I'm not ready as a council person to throw out a rodeo down to the cozy point. I think it's counter to what cozy point stands for in today's world. But that's we can get into that later. So, taking 42-year thing that draws tourists and I think there's different opinions as to whether or not it generates sales tax for a town. I can tell you there's a lot of cars that turn right and a lot of tourists busses from our hotels that come. And this was not intended to be a rodeo versus ice drink discussion. This was intended to be a little bit of a, hey, so what the direction we got from council last October was, once the, wasn't included in the budget by the in-term town manager. Council approved the budget that way. Then come October-ish or so, and said, hey, let's really make this thing happen. He said, here's the money to do it. We did it, got it up and going, and then to credit to the staff. They did it as well as can be possible. They rearranged a bunch of stuff, made it look as good as possible, got everything flat, evaporated well, mother nature didn't cooperate this year. And then it's part of that discussion, at least my recollection is the council then directed us to say, hey, do a shading analysis, is there something permanent? Exactly right. That's what this is. And what this says is, in order to make the shade work, it needs to be 50 feet or 80 feet. I mean, you'll be building a very tall 50 foot, tall structure to provide shape. I think maybe we could put some cell, a cell tower, a tower. I think what I'm saying is I support if the rest of the council is an agreement, which what I think you were saying is, if we could get back on the planning process and really look at it and start to dig into it, I'm very much in support of that. I know I wax poetic on some other aspects of it, but that I'm just trying to be respectful of knowing that it's a people, but I think that we have a great council here, and with your leadership, I'd like to see us go ahead with staff and try to solve it, because it continues to just maintain itself. Just keep talking about the end result. So at this point, here's what we're anticipating doing, going forward. And we're exceptionally flexible, and we debated back and forth what are put recommendations in this thing or not, and obviously we decided not to. Good, it's a discussion. But what we're very much prepared to do is almost, and this is going to sound ridiculous, do the same thing we've done in the last couple years and cross our fingers. And it's a little counter to what Councilman Jakeson said, but it's kind of that home spun, rink, the boards are donated, we can flatten it out, we can provide that stuff, we can at least keep it a minute going. If there isn't anything, it's not a tremendous cost. If there is more than there's some more use. At some point, you're going to see the numbers and you know our estimate is, and I think I remember this correct, there's probably 250 individuals that utilize the rink on a season. Some of those individuals use it a lot. Some use it a couple of times, but 250 individuals are best guess. And then so then you guys would make the, you know, that some kind of evaluation of whatever point is it worth while or not? That's a political point, that's a political decision on your, on your own part. But we, I'm gonna also speak on, because I can feel him punch me underneath the table here. The problem is, if we go down that path, the facility is what it is. It's not gonna be world class, it's not gonna be the greatest facility since last wipe bread, it's not gonna be that I can't even pick an adjective than other than it's not gonna be world class. It's going to be what it is, what it always has been. And as long as there's a level of comfort with that level of service we provided, I'm confident in speaking to say we can continue to provide that and make incremental improvements to it. But that policy decision on your guys as part is kind of what Councilman Jacobs is talking about is at least I'm putting Virginia Mouth is are we okay with that? I'm gonna use the word basic. I already iterated so I would much rather here in April at the beginning of the summer roll up our sleeves and get to work. I'd rather spend the expenditures that we might spend rolling the dice on an ice rank to really try to put that money towards a stud year to put that money towards really trying to solve or move forward this discussion. That's where my priority would be as opposed to waiting until October, November, December as we do and then who's doing it and how are we doing it and then we do that whole thing again. It just seems, yeah, if that's not the will of council, I'm fine with that but I don't want to do that again. I kind of look at them separately. They're not exactly separate. There is overlap. But I'm kind of look at them separately. I think that if we as a council have this a period of time from now until we get the preliminary PUD back, which is a fair number of months. Perhaps bringing the discussion of the entryway in whatever form we want to bring it back to this council, back to the public during this time period would be beneficial. We could use the time hopefully to make some progress, even if we can't reach a conclusion by the time that the PUD, the preliminary PUD gets back to us, but I think it would be a valuable use of time. And in addition coming back to the situation in the ice ring for the upcoming year, perhaps, by having this discussion on the entryway, we'll have a better sense of our direction. We'll have a better sense of what we are willing to afford or not afford in terms of an annual rank as it currently exists. And if you were going to go through an interway project and we're going to build something, that's not done within six months as we all know. To me, it's better to have what we've had for years and darn it, this year was not a good year, but other years has been fabulous. So. And that's, I think there's that short term that we can keep doing what we want. That the entryway discussion, and I think I've expressed this a few times, when sitting in a few of those meetings actually, it kind of came down to rodeo, ice rink, and maybe fields, I'm not sure. But there was a lot of other issues that needed to be identified that could happen there. Transportation issues, you can go through the gamut. And that's my push to say, let's at least see which on the CIP. And then we can start weighing all the other kind of issues or projects that may happen there. And then that discussion gets widened up beyond just ice and rodeo to plain fields, the housing, the transportation, whatever else might fit on that product. I agree, I think it's a much larger discussion, but in the short term. I mean, if we're looking at $1,700, I mean, that's what it was this year. I mean, that's what it was this year. I mean, I think we should do the best we can with what we've got. And I mean, I appreciate the drawings, but I just don't have a vision for a 60-foot high structure, you know, offense, and how that's actually going to work. Well, it doesn't make sense to do that. No, and I think even, you know, you know, you just...'s actually going to work. Well, it doesn't make sense to do that. No, and I think even, you know, you know, but Andy knows that too. And so I mean, we're on the same page that that was just an evaluation of the vast of us. So, you know, you know, is there a way to do some screening that's strung between the light posts or something that's higher? I'm not sure you've looked at this. Yeah. And can speak to this. Jason had this thinking about that as an option as well. So looking at those, because I talked about that with SGM on what the capabilities are, those. Those are telephone pole light posts. They're not structurally sound enough to put stringing of cable across their plus the other thing is one of them is a cell power lease and not permissible to do that. So we'd have to do some infrastructure improvements. There is definitely mechanisms you can go out there. There's ranks that have more of a vertical screening. I don't know if anybody's been to wreck and ridge. They got system in place with cables. And you can retract it, but it's a capital investment. And so I guess what we're looking at is just a conversation on we didn't think this option was an option, but we wanted to bring back where we were at and open up that conversation. I think what Clint's kind of talking about is what we are proposing is, you know, we can bring this back in the budget conversation and what it would take next year to do what we've been doing and then work through the capital improvement projects and talk about what would go on entryway and what that may look like in the future. And I'd even, we're prepared to keep doing what we've always done. My sense is there's a little disagreement on, is that good enough? And if there's a consensus that, hey, we'll just at least keep a going and then the discussion, the next discussion can be, do you want to elevate? Then that would be the discussion. At this point, I mean, we're prepared to keep doing what's had occurred the last couple years. I think doing what we've been doing is okay, but if you have to rely on Jack to do it all, it's not a good plan. We need to have somebody who's responsible for that area and to make it happen. When they start making snow for the World Cup, we should be making ice down there. I mean, as soon as the sun starts to dip, let's get on it. So we have a really set plan in place so that we can really make snow. and I see you looking at me funny, but that's... Well, I think World Cup is like unrealistic because that's a North Face at a much higher altitude than a face that's like that, an exposure that's like that. But I agree earlier. Yeah, I mean, my goal would be that get that ice in place. So when the, when that they start selling Christmas trees down there, you can go there and have that experience. Like, hey, let's go ice skating and buy our Christmas tree. That to me is like, that's a cool experience. You know, I think that should be the goal. I think it's a good goal, but I have to say, I mean, what we've seen in the last years, the siding of it, the elevation of it, the temperature changes, we're not being successful with it. And I have to disagree with you, but I would love to see the council say, in light of especially perhaps different revenue streams, be it the Holy Cross Fund, be it the negotiations with developers, community purpose. If we could actually engage the topic, maybe even out of the whole entryway, but at least this area and start to figure out what we could do. I think we might be able to come up with a plan that would be more robust and actually be successful whether we spend 250 on a chiller or whatever the costs were. You know, but we keep going down this thing. We set up the board. I mean, the last couple of years, it's pretty much never been great. There have been some good nights out there, but it's a. Did you have any ice cream? It's. Yeah. But outdoor ice is never great. I mean, that's the reality of it. I mean, as soon as you put a roof over it, it totally changes the experience. So I'm not in favor of putting a roof over it, because all of a sudden you're creating what we've got to of in town. So maintaining that outdoor rank, and yeah, it's never going to be great ice, but that's kind of the idea of pawn hockey. I agree. I just think we have huge opportunities there with the rec center, with the pond, with the possible revatives, even with the potential inclusion of the rodeo to advance it to a much more functional, and I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying, that's down the road. I don't think that's going to happen in the next six months. Well, I'm probably being too optimistic, but I'm going to just continue to try to motivate us to say, hey, what would we get done in six months if we actually made this a priority for this council? And Andy can tell you it's realistic. I mean, best case realistic if you want to. No, I mean, more in terms of the overall planning concept. Well, we've got a CIP that's, we're supposed to. Yeah, and I guess there's the long term planning and then there's the, you know, if we operational stuff that accounts my Mass and is talking about. I mean, go ahead. Go for it, Dean. You know, Bill, I totally agree with you and we have been talking about that plan for four years now. It would be great to have somebody on site every night and be able to count on them to make ice and run the Zamboni. Sarah and I just talked about that this morning. You know, we have numbers are put together on how many staff we need, you know, to really make that work. We went through that, you know, last year and the year before. There is that amount of time and we totally agree with you. As soon as the ring is up and the line is down and the temperature is dipped to a certain level, we should be out there. It doesn't work out that way sometimes and sometimes you are out there and nobody sees any ice being made during the day because of the heat. So yeah, you know, this is a great conversation to have. We do have those numbers and we do have, you know, that staffing issue that we have to deal with for a rank that potentially could operate for three months. And it is that role of the dice that we did this year. But as Clint said, we are willing to do that again. And if that's the will of the council, let us know which direction we're going and we will make that happen again this year. At least this conversation is happening now in April and not in October. Have you been through budget? Yeah. May I ask you a question? Yes. Be careful. Yeah. It's just really a phrase and I couldn't say something about it, but quite frankly, I think this is a well-class Frank, but it's at the mercy of Mother Nature. And if you're willing to accept that, on a whatever time basis, I think you don't have any choice for this year that you're not going to get anything built. You might be able to install some screening which I don't see a whole lot. Our analysis shows it doesn't do a whole lot of good for you. And if you're green that it's tempering and you want to postpone that kind of capital investment until after you've been through your entry wake, I think your marching orders are to handy is we would like to see your budget to make this the best that you can in terms of laying off some of that volunteer time so that it's supported. I think you were in position to do that last year with. I think we're okay or something 45. When you're at the mercy of Mother Nature, you're at the mercy of Mother Nature and so quite frankly I do think it's world class ice rink. I mean how many pond hockey places do you know where they have boards in his ambonia and they can do all that and still be at the mother or the mercy of mother nature. So I think if you think of it in those terms, and you give Andy the marching orders to prepare his budget accordingly, because that process is it's underway at this point. So in his point to making this decision now, at least you can look at it and consider it with the whole instead of going, wow, we budgeted all this money just last month and now we got to figure out how to make the ice cream go. I think that's a huge step from what we've done the past five years. I think so too. I would agree with you, you. Have you looked at Sun Valley's operation? Yes. So they have some screen. I mean somehow they're able to make it work and they seem to I don't know what they spend. They have more permanent system though. I mean they've got concrete ranks so there's different dynamics. Yeah. Not saying that sand doesn't work because the sand rank base can work fine. dynamics. Not saying that sand doesn't work because the sand-ranked base can work fine. It just different. Yeah, I had a pretty extensive conversation this year with the Recreation Director in Sun Valley about, you know, their whole process and how they got to where they're going. And, you know, it's kind of interesting because they say, well, yeah, we were right where you are, you know, however many years ago, we were there. You didn't have a hockey association, they had one. You know, it was, so we're trying to take as much information from outdoor ranks everywhere. You know, as, you know, Carbondale had the same issue, talking with Eric. It was, it was the, you know, even though they get a little more shade, you know, earlier in the day, they were still having the same issue because of the air temperature. So, there's not much we can do about that. But we'll continue to, you know, supply you with as much information as you want on outdoor ice rinks and shade structures and that type of stuff. Well, I'm in favor, speaking, I'm listening to Bill and Bob a little bit here and Chris. Melissa, I'd like to keep, we've got to keep going. I mean, I'm in favor of you preparing your budget based on what you think would be the best way to operate it and bring it into us. And the meantime, we'll see where life takes us between that and now and that. I just need to wind up a little bit instead of bringing it in we're going to go down that path and have it ready to go and we're going to we're going to with all the respect to mean the majority is at least keep doing is what we've been doing see if we can find ways to improve it. And that way these guys can have that direction in April and then come October, not starting from scratch or starting in April. And they can make sure they're paying. Yeah, I guess I meant to integrate it with the budget to the rest of the departments in town. Yeah, and my only concern is that doesn't, you guys don't even see that till October. And I need, we need to start doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.. And so you should expect that's going to be there. Yeah. It's going to be there and we will make that. We'll kind of make it similar to the past. And I don't know how long it takes to create that or what work has to do. It has to be done in order to get it created. Yeah, we just need to have it before the normal budget. and that's too late. It's too late. So we're going to go ahead and for this we need lead time. About April. April's good. We're right on time. April's good to start planning for October. And maybe you look at it at a tiered level like, hey this is what it's going to take to do the bare bones and this is you know step two and this is going to be the ultimate. At this point, we're not going to plan any of the permanent stuff that SGM, you'll see, you just got it tonight, but you'll see it. There's, we're going to try and do what we've got with the stuff we've got now, and then we can look for ways for improvement. But we're not going to try and do the 50 foot fence at this point or any of the kind of things, that they say would be necessary for the appropriate amount of shade and whatnot. That would be a budget process that you'd have to go through because we're not going to go down that way. Do you come to what they will listen? I am. I mean, I don't know much about the ski rank. I've never gone down there. But I will say that I know a lot of people that utilize it and you know I understand no Chris's point and It's kind of one of those things that I feel like if it wasn't there It would be a shame. I mean so even if it's only there for a month because the snow is a problem with the weather and the warm but I think that it's definitely worth it to have it. And I like this, I like what Bill was saying. And I think that in the next few months, especially with all this talk about what we're going to do with the money for the community purpose, who knows what's going to happen down there and what we might decide to do. And I think we're working towards that. But right now, if you need to know, I like the direction which we're going. Thank you. Okay. You got clarity? towards that but right now if you need to know I like the direction which we're going. Thank you. Okay. You got clarity? And? Oh, okay. Okay. Next item is Council. The town council reports and actions. Do you have anything? Oh. Alyssa. No, but I had a question. Did we, the last meeting when the school district was here, did we set a time which we were going to talk more in depth about that tax? We did. I think that's June 8th. I can look. Tax at the school district and the tax. My only concern was is that I'm not going to be here that meeting and this I feel like is a really Orton. I have a suggestion to the council as a result of our meeting last week relative to the school board and it may change that timing but my Suggestion is that we ask the Financial Advisory Board to do a study on the town sales tax structure. With an eye towards determining if the town should or could reallocate the sales tax for the school district. And if and provide us with a recommendation. If it's feasible or if it's not feasible, if it's feasible, how they would propose, and if it's not feasible, it's not feasible. But let's use the expertise of the FAB. Because frankly, I think this is, I think this is a decision that takes a fair amount of analysis and thought and I'm not sure that we as a council, we have to make the final decision for sure but I think we can use the resources that we have at our disposal in the FAB to really do a first class job. Hi, I agree. So that means we wouldn't be discussing it at that meeting. Probably not, but I, but. We can, I mean, it's up. Well, I just, I have to, I have to, two are different, one is let's say that seven look at it. I totally understand that. Yours is the timing of it. Well, I'm just, the school thing is really important to me so I want to make sure that if we're discussing it that I'm here to discuss it and I know I'm not going to be here on that date. Okay, here's my question of June 8th. Bob and I talked a little bit on this issue about the FAB. Is it within the purview of the FAB to do this analysis since the sales tax is a town issue. Okay. I mean, analysis would be, I mean, what would happen is we do some research on, you know, what's the, what's an average sales tax rate for community? How does, you know, how does our rate compare to other people's rates? I mean, it's going to come down to a policy question of, do you want, where do you want it? You've only got so much money coming in, but we can certainly do that analysis and have the FAB look at it and give their recommendations and whatnot. Every month. The reason why I'm bringing that up because the FAB and its purpose and role was heavily discussed and debated a couple years ago, Council. So when I was talking about, it's my understanding that it's well within the purview of FAB. There's an advisory board to you all. If that's something you want to advice on, I have every confidence in telling you that be appropriate to have them look at it for you. We can have staff do it. It's also, but I think that's the starting point. Well, that's what happened. We'll do some great work. I think that's very important. Does it with them? Right. And I thought there was a great suggestion from the came from Bob. So, but, Alyssa's point right now it's on schedule for June 8th and if you'd all like we could, the next workshop, you know, we only have one a month, we could push it back to, I'm looking, July 13th is the July workshop. I'm gone all of July. Why that you're gone all June, sorry. No, it's all of July. And we can do it at a regular meeting. Obviously we're going to a regular meeting, we're televised like we are now. It changes a little bit. But we can put it on June. Except you guys are both. I just learned tonight. You guys are both gone June 15th. Well, what about the 22nd? That's not a council meeting. So I know can we move the work session if we're going to talk about that? That's up to you five. We can do whatever you guys can agree to. 20 second of which month? June? Of June. Would it be regular? No, just if we could move the work session from June 8th to June 22nd. If we're going to be talking about the school district stuff That would be my request When is I guess I need to ask wins a CML bang and June 16 through the 19 Yeah, I could do the 22nd. So can I? I can do the 22nd. How about you, Bill? I can. I'm happy to go along. Sure. We should cancel the 8th. It moves the 8th. To the 22nd. So 8th is canceledth and the workshop will not be the 22nd. Right. Thank you everybody. We moved to Wilkib. We're here to accommodate. And that's at 5 o'clock or 4 o'clock. 5 to 7. And of course we have to confirm with them that that's going to work on their side. I'm sure we'll be able to. Right. No, we're not. Right. No. Okay. That was the only thing I. Okay. Bill, do you have any updates? I have a tour of the Viceroy water outlet this morning and Viceroy garage and we're hopeful that we'll come up with some resolution or some at least learn some more about where that discharge is coming from. Do you have any updates, Clint, on that issue? We met with Water and Sand on site today. They're testing a number of different sources. Our building officials are looking at it. We're looking at plans. There's a number of theories out there and we're working through the theories. I think my overall message is there's not an eminent danger that we know it's an important issue. We need to be on, we're on it. But I don't want anyone to think that there's sewage flowing somewhere. I mean, there is a vehicle matter that we found. We're investigating, we need to find a source. I'm sure we will, and we'll have it rectify. Okay, thank you. I don't have anything. I just, I guess I want to comment on the email that we got from Alex Lawflor who seemed to have a pretty decent resume. He's moving into town from Carvindell and he's interested in getting on one of the boards or commissions. I didn't see it. Yeah, I got it too. I got it. I did read it. It just went to council. It's I understand he's moving next week. We're not required to live in the community to be on the town board. Some are, some aren't. Some aren't, yeah. And I don't know where there are openings Well, they're advertising the paper right now. There's a couple openings, but if you could forward that to me, I can respond I'll be happy to Anything else Bob? No, that's it. Thank you. Chris. I don't think I have anything Thank you. Do we have a motion for a German? We had a quick question. What about the email we got today that Rhonda forwarded us from the daily town home. The daily town home owner. Let me do a little homework on that and I'll give you a report back on it. Okay. Thank you very much. Okay. Anything else? Motion for adjournment? Motion to adjourn. Thank you. For a second. A second. Give it to adjourn. Thank you. For a second. A second. Give it a little. I'll support you. I never second. All right. All right. Thank you.