I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to do it. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm I'm not going to make this a deal. I'm not going to make this a deal. I broke my old office chair. I just had to sit on one table. Just make a buy. Double-vogue. They give it a little... Good evening to all. We are going to go ahead and start the September 8th meeting. This is a regular meeting of town council. And I welcome everyone that's in the here from the community tonight. Pretty large group. And needless to say, the podium is right in my way, so I don't have a good line down this way. So I don't know who all is here, but I do want to welcome everyone. The way that town council is working is we really want to entertain and listen to everyone who wants to have public input. So that's extremely important. and listen to everyone who wants to have public input. So that's extremely important. We've got a very large agenda this evening. And therefore we need to get started. So with that, Rhonda Rokall. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Okay. Thank you very much, Rhonda. The first thing I will do is open the floor to public comment. This is about five minutes max for anyone to come up. Give us your name and talk with us. Yes, sir. Come on up. I have more than one comment, but my first one is name. But this recall, Sir. Jacobson is in town the out of order. Richard, we need to give your name, so we have that on record. I'm Richard Goodwin. I live on 385 Fairway Drive, and I'm also an owner of a condominium in base village. So I happen to know a lot about what happened to Mr. Jacobs in that night, and there's a forensic psychologist who is putting together a report that he obviously was drunk, considering the history of and way he normally would have acted. I don't want to go into any details about it, but this russed judgment to remove him from the council is totally inappropriate and based on a comment from a lawyer it's illegal. And if it's going to proceed there's probably going to be a law since to stop it or at least postpone it until the courts have decided what his fate is. And it's very mean-spirited because it's being the petition to recall was headed by somebody that he blew the whistle one last year when he was a member of the council. And what this city needs desperately is somebody to blow whistles when things are wrong. And he has the courage to do that. And this is political revenge by that councilman who started this. And I think that this council should give serious consideration to waiting until what the courts decide about the fate of them. Now in that vein, I have decided to run for council if he is removed, because somebody needs to be on this council that has a lot of development experience, which I have 40 years of 5,000 residential units, 15,000 building lots. And I see so many things wrong with the processing so far. For instance, I have never heard the word bonding. Now, related set a year ago, when Romero was at the stick that bonding's out of the question, well that'll guarantee it's two more uncompleted buildings probably. So the other thing that troubles me is what's being foot loose and fancy free with base fillage owners? We were promised in an aquatic center, or at least a pool, and that seems to be bargaining away to our disadvantaged. And I hear that there's a possibility of changing parking arrangements to disadvantaged of the owners. We're being treated as as second-class citizens. Nothing should be decided about pays for which unless the base for which owners are involved. Now I realize they can't vote because they're not full-time citizens here, although some of them are. And another thing that is wrong when this property, when in the foreclosure related abandoned. Then they came back in a sale by the bank and they suddenly took over the HOA. This is on the agenda for tonight. Base Philly does on the agenda tonight, so Mr. Dresser is suggesting. This is the public non-agenda comment period. And when you're talking about something that's on the agenda, what you're just like, I want to talk to. Just a second. Let me finish before you interrupt. Are you mind blowing me? I am. And there's a reason for it. Because any comments you want to make in regard to base billage You have to be during the public hearing which the mayor has not opened or they are not part of the record So I would request that you can find your comments to items that are not on the agenda and do public non agenda comments Well, I'm going to be a non agenda comment. Well, I'm being told to shut up, but you haven't heard the last from me. I assure you. Actually, Mr. Goodwin, I ask you to speak at the proper time. I never use the word shut up. Thank you, Joan. Moving on. We are moving. Yes, Joan. Moving on, are we moving, yes, Tony? Yes, as long as it's not pertaining to base village. I don't think it does. Okay. It might be one more time, but it's not to base village. What it is, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the police department and the streets department for a very well-run, safe and secure jazz aspen this past weekend. In full disclosure, I worked security for the event and I was in charge of traffic control. As you know, we had that huge rainstorm Friday night, the embankment where the pedestrians get off and on the bus, the double, the bus is sunk down about a foot and a half. Saturday morning when we realized that it was an unsafe condition, contacted Snowmass Police, they were right on it, got cones, plywood. As soon as the streets department came in, they brought in two truckloads of sand and dirt, put the plywood and made it very safe. So I just wanted to come in the kudos, the thanks, to the employees, so to speak, snowmast village. And then when I did going out at night, there were thousands, thousands of cons of goers waiting in line for the buses and the buses couldn't keep up with them. And I brought this to the attention to each individual jurisdiction picking county snowmass Asman and soon before rafta those double-decker buses when they are packed full and Standing lane only I say to myself if that bus crash is going down brush Creek Road is our hospital equipped to handle on Brush Creek Road is our hospital equipped to handle 100 seriously injured passengers. As you know, Raft had an accident on Highway 82 that maxed out both of our hospitals. So me, I'm always thinking about solutions. Of course, I had to think about that aerial connection between snowmassen and Asman, and it gave me that much more incentive to make that a reality happen sometime in our lifetimes. So with that being said I just wanted to say great kudos on a wonderful concert and the cooperation of everyone was just fabulous. Thank you very very much Tony. And I see a hand way up in the back. Come on my front. Hi I'm Jim Rahman and I just want to comment on the fact that I've heard that there's a movement to put the snowmast discovery over on the side of the hill. And as somebody who's been in marketing for 30 years, I have to say that one of the problems that this town continues to suffer from is that we always divide everything up. We're going to be having the conversation on the community purpose tonight. So, John? On snowmess discovery? Yes, that's part of the conversation tonight. Thank you very much. I'm sorry to shut you down, but John earlier commented that we have to be particularly careful when we move into public comment and then public agenda item with public hearing. Okay, anything else, Pat? Up, now on later. Later, base village will be later. And I appreciate everyone's comments and eagerness to talk about base village, but we've got a public hearing momentarily regarding base village. And there'll be a variety of discussions this evening and one of them is community purpose. Okay, with anything else from out there any hands? Okay. And Tony, thank you very much for kudos out to our police department and all the staff. It was a wonderful weekend and needless to say there were a lot of people there. Concerts were great. I think everyone had a great time. So moving on to consent agenda. Do I have a motion for approval of the consent agenda? So moved. Thank you, Bob. Second. I have a motion in a second. Any discussion? I would just like to suggest in addition to our work session topics. We sort of got into a discussion in the last meeting or two about parking permit options. A variety of parking permits that the town sells. And I think the issue that came up had to do with had to do with base field residents having multiple vehicles for whatever reasons and buying additional parking passes. And I think that it would be worthwhile for the council to review the whole program of these parking passes. Okay. Would you suggest that might go on October 5th or before? When do the passes? You don't want it on the 5th, I'm not sure budget reviews. Oh, okay. Sorry. Yeah, we approved it. It's just a review of just you want to detail. It's really just a review to see if there's anything that stands sticks out that we need to try to address going forward. But it's as much, I believe, for myself and perhaps my co-counsel people to understand what the options there are and what the town is doing as it relates to these parking. I think Mr. Dresser would have come in. I do, I just want you to understand that because you've already approved that agreement, that affecting changes for this season is going to be problematic. I understand. Okay, cheers looking for background. I understand that it's too late for next week. I just want to make sure because they already ordered product. Yeah, I understand. So that's a good work session right in the long. You know, we got the employee housing. We need to have a lot of backdrop information on the housing as well. Do you have anything that you want to add to work session or agenda? I agree. Okay, I think we are too. Okay, to work session or agenda. I agree. Oh. Okay. I think we are too. Okay. We do have a motion. We have a second. All is support. Say aye. Aye. Oppose? Same sign. It's carried. Okay. Next item is the public hearing. And at this time, I will continue the public hearing from our last meeting, which was September. The no is August 31st, if I remember right. And we have a lot to cover this evening. So welcome to related, welcome to all the public. Julianne and Jim, would you like to take the lead, Julianne? Sure. All right, any other staff report tonight, you have a resolution that was put forward by the Planning Commission. Resolution number eight of 2015 and that was specifically related to the community purpose and variance requests that the applicants asking for. The cover memo is new information to you as well as an amendment that's been put forward by the applicant to the PUD, which is attached as a attachment five. We also have included some new letters and I believe that you've got to hand out tonight to even more letters from the public. So those should all be entered into the record. As far as some additional information, we went ahead and updated that matrix, which we included in your packet as well, which is really intended just for information and easy access to the information that Jim did a great job I'm pulling together to you just try and summarize a very hefty application into kind of just one spreadsheet so the applicant in their amendment also would like to get some direction from counsel regarding some architectural changes to building seven. So you may have seen that in their amendment as well. And they are, like I said, they will present to you why they feel that this amendment to the PUD application is necessary. Council will have to decide why they feel that this amendment to the PED application is necessary. Council will have to decide what you want to do with that. We would also recommend that council get through a discussion regarding the public purposes and the variance requests that are being made. So just real briefly, that building seven, the main architectural change is the change in the roof and some facade changes. You might have noticed that when you took a look at the photo. The amendment to the PUD you'll need to decide whether or not you're willing to accept that or whether or not you want to refer that back out to the planning commission or whether it's fine and it doesn't need a referral or deny it for that matter. So you'll need to give us some direction on how you feel about that as well. So I provided some of the language from the code to help you with your decision making. And then as far as the community purposes and variances just to quickly summarize the planning commission, they put this forward in their resolution, but essentially they were comfortable with the Building 6 proposal. They felt that we needed to do a little bit more programming with staff so that the building is built in such a way that it would accommodate whatever that future use would be. They wanted to make sure that there was a management agreement in place for the plaza facility to make sure that that again has the ability to be programmed, etc. They also suggested that they would like to see more cash put on the table by the applicant to offset the variances in addition to the community offering. And some of the discussion related to that had to do with the fact that this was a building that was a shell. And that it would take quite a bit of cash to be able to finish it out and or create some sort of a possible and. It's what I'm looking for. Endowment if you had a nonprofit in there to help them be able to operate that at that location. So that was some of the discussion that the Planning Commission had when they met last week and put together their thoughts on that recommendation to you. So we are suggesting that you consider the building seven changes that are being proposed to make a decision regarding the requested amendment and consider the analysis and community purpose for the variances that are being requested and the resolution that was put forward by the proposed amendment. The letter is on page 82 of the packets. For my fellow council people, I'm sure all of you have read it. You provided us Julian under section 16A5-340K some options here for council to consider in terms of consideration of the amendment. Is it appropriate to look at what those modifications might be before we discuss the proposed amendment? Or what are you suggesting? I would suggest that we see what the proposed changes might look like. I think that would probably be appropriate. Okay, and then from there, then we could determine if it needs to be remanded. Okay. Madamed. Okay. Madam Mayor. Yes. At some point in today's meeting I would like to bring up some subjects from previous thanks discussions. Please leave it up to you to guide me as to when you would like to incorporate that into the agenda. Okay, so in fact to all the council people and the community, there are some little touchstones that we need to talk about. Some list, so if you've got a list kind of generating in your brain, we'll bring them up tonight. Our goal is to try to get through a resolution over the next few weeks. So that's the intent. We may not get there, but let's hope we can. So with that, Jim, who's presenting tonight? Craig, how are you? Vice President of the Development is going to take a lead here. OK, Craig. We want some of the architects with us. Yes, thank you. Yeah, thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you, staff. Craig Monzeo representing the applicant related Colorado's NMS acquisition company along with Jim DeGasino. We have Becky Stone with Oz Architecture. She'll be walking through the proposed changes to 10A and B. We also have Rich Carr who's going to be talking about the changes to building seven. We thought that this amendment was important to be reviewed in preliminary plan. Moving into final does require the submission of final plans. There are probably a bit more flexibility and pre-limb to try and address specific concerns. So those specific amendments now, rather than wait until the submission of final. We do believe that the changes are an improvement to the previous rendition. And we are looking forward to presenting those to this evening. And those were in our packet as well, so appreciate that that came forward, and we had a chance to look at, but we'd love to see the presentation, because the community hasn't seen the changes. Of course, and we'll start building seven before moving into building 10AB. And on this slide, this is more of a housekeeping item with regards to the circulation within building 7. Bill, you had mentioned the importance of public access to the staircase within building 7. We are able to accommodate that and so we just need to make some changes to the floor plans, which we will submit during final to make sure that that staircase, which is on the eastern side of the building, remains open to the public for circulation. The other three bullet points I did present last week, this was the only item that remained open and definitely wanted to let you know that we have addressed that specific concern. This is the same staircase as it's just an agreement with sunrise. That is correct. So there will be security features within that stairwell, so access to the residential levels are restricted, similar to what you currently have in capital PK. And the same would be true of the elevator? Exactly, it would be exactly the same as capital PK. Because that elevator and stair corridor are public circulation for the conference center as well as for guests parking in that structure. You can mention we've worked with us to prove that out. Yeah and Becky has worked on, excuse me if I'm too way, Becky has worked on a couple of different options but we still want to work through those options before presenting a final plan which we will submit during final but the intent is to keep that open to the public. And we will improve the overall look and feel of that emergency staircase. Better signage. Better signage. Oh, the signage is definitely. The signage is definitely. We know it's there until we went on the tour. Yeah, and signage is key to the overall programming within Building 7 and circulation and alerting guests to what the multiple forms of circulation is within that building. So it is clear when a guest enters that building they know where to go. The only thing left on the circulation was the work activity that we talked about with challenge ASP. And I assume that that has started or we'll see that in final. Yes, absolutely. We have reached out to challenge ASP and Don Blasberg is assisting with that. And we are trying to schedule a meeting I believe for Thursday with town staff as well as Challenge Aspen to put together what that scope is. And the goal is to have that submitted or will be submitted with final. Okay. Thank you. Okay. And I will turn it over to Rich Car. Hi, Rich Car with CCW Architects. Could be back here today. I think our focus today is on Building 7 and the evolution we've made to the presence of the entrance to the building. And we've done a couple more angles that you guys don't think have seen yet. You saw them in your packet. This is of the proposal I from two weeks ago and we'll show you the evolution from this to what we're proposing now. Craig, is this? Yeah. Okay. So this is obviously a view from the arrival side. Particularly pay attention to the one story kind of porch scale of the entrance. And the main adjustment we've made is to increase the height of that front porch to be twice tall and we think it has a huge impact in terms of how much how much more welcome it is and how much more impact it has. Yep. Did the lights at all are you guys see it well enough? We can do that. We don't exactly have dimmer. We don't have a dimmer. Didn't the lights at all, are you guys see it well enough? Can we dim just now? We can do that. We don't exactly have dimmers. We don't have a dimmer. We did this wonderful tune. Perfect. Look at that. And these renderings are a little more literal than probably the ones we had before. It's a little fancier rendering. So it helps you get even better sense of the texture and richness of the materials and the stone and the wood. Yeah. So and the richness of the materials and the stone and the wood. Yeah, so it's much stronger, we believe. We think hopefully address what you guys were concerned about in terms of greater presence, greater clarity of where to go more than that. And what would be over those windows on that kind of the second, above the door, can those be curtained or are those going to be just stayed open? Is that the employee unit? That's the employee unit just like the ones on that whole floor. Like it was before but now of course it's underneath the scale of this bigger entrance. I have two more exhibits if it's okay. Okay, so yeah, quickly blasted those. And then we did we did the same comparison before and after, if you will, from two weeks ago was this design. And now we've again adjusted that whole entry piece. We've adjusted the two middle sections to go a little higher, which gives even a little more room for the entry to breathe and have more impact. I'll go back and forth a few times. Whoops. Did you? Also added a little more relief into the facade. Right. Just in general, it's just a disinprovement. It's a little less about the entrance, but just about a little more overhang. A little more depth for those two center wood sections that are pulled forward a little bit more. This gives a little more relief and texture to the building, which we think is an improvement too. Thoughts, comments? Let's go back to that one. That's a better one. And whatever. Well, I think that it certainly makes that front entrance, you know, more impressive. I actually like both changes, the raising of that roof on the front entrance, and I like the change made to those square wooden square pieces on either side. wouldn't square pieces on either side. I actually think that on first blush, the change to all those changes kind of make this issue a problem, concern of curtains hanging in the windows a little bit less obtrusive because there's more going on there's more going on around them one other point we did a little looking around took some photographs of examples of other north facing facades here in base village. And when it's north-facing particularly, you don't actually see through to the curtains as much as if you would have lightly shining at them, you know, sunlight. That's a good point. That's a good point. So we thought it through. We just don't think it's worth trying to legislate a certain curtain type or something. And we can work on it and do our best. But I I just don't think it's that big. I agree with you, Bob. I don't think it's that big a deal. This is a much bigger deal in terms of the clarity of entrance and the power of the scale of it when you arrive from a pedestrian standpoint, particularly. I think it's a decided improvement. I really like it. Bill, Alyssa. Looks good. Looks more like an arrival center. I'm sorry. Alyssa, yes. looks more like an arrival center. Sorry. Mm-hmm. Well, this is a yes. I'm looking out at the audience going once, going twice. OK. It looks as though it's kind of a thumbs up from this direction right now, so we really like it. Thank you. I know it's a lot of fun. You've done it. You worked very hard, so we appreciate it. Well, we're really happy with it, so thank you. Thank you. I know it's not a good job. You've done it. You worked very hard, so we appreciate it. Well, we're really happy with it, so thank you. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much, Rich. So we'll be moving into building 10AB. And Becky Stone will walk through the changes to 10AB. And this was an iterative process that we've been working on over the last couple weeks weeks based on comments that we heard from surrounding properties as well as from the Planning Commission and town council. And so we hope that these specifically address and provide solutions for the issues that have been presented previously. I'm Becky Steln with as architecture. So I'm just going to read through sort of the changes that we made since last week. First we reduced the massing. That was on sort of toward Wood Upper Wood Road. And we pulled it back. So we were talking about creating a little bit more landscape on that buffer and pulling it back away from the enclave. So I'll show you the site plan in a minute. But that's one of the things we did and increased the landscaping along Upper Wood Road. And in doing that the same move we reduced the length Between building A and B we reduced the length of building 10 B so that the experience walking between those two buildings is shorter You know that you're in between the two buildings shorten that length And then we increased the size of that gap between the two buildings, shorten that length. And then we increased the size of that gap between the two buildings to 40 feet. So if you remember, I think it was 27 feet before. So we've increased it by 13 feet to get it a bit wider. So now it's actually wider than the space between two B and two C, right? We kept the bridge up at the third level. So that's up to 20 feet in the air or more. And then we reduced the total footprint of 10B. So we talked about this briefly last time, but what we did to pull the massing back from upper wood road is that we moved the residential real estate that was there and we put it up on top. So in doing that, when we put it on top of 10AB, we're still not close to the height limit that we were at at the PUD level. So it doesn't fill up the whole floor, but it sort of sits in the middle of 10B. And then we also improve the pedestrian connectivity along the village way from the skier bridge. So along that retail, and they'll show you the site plan in a minute but along the walk along that retail and we made that a little bit more friendly to have seating and pedestrians. Now we added outdoor space for the two employee units that come out like right along the Lige Way when you start walking up that path in between A and B. So because we widened that space which was nice we could get some patios for those employee units and some direct access right to their doors. So I have that on the map too. I'm not sure if that's in their exhibit or not, maybe. Yeah. OK. And then we added storage for those employee units. So they each have 15 square feet of storage that we added. And because we adjusted that space in between the buildings, we gained a little bit of garage space. So aside from making sure that the solid waste removal fit in there, we also gained three parking stalls. So those are the big points. I'll point them out on the map. So this was the original site plan. So this is what we showed last time we were here. And it was sort of has that pinch point between building 10 A and 10 B and then the top of 10 B there up towards Wood Road sort of creeps awfully close to Wood Road so the next one shows the change. So here you have that piece of building 10 B pulled back, pulled down from the road and the gap widened. And then you could see, I don't know, a pointer, because the mouse isn't working, but, oh, there. So right there are the employee housing units, so that's the on-grade patios, and then the sort of 40 feet in between those buildings. Does that impinge on the ski back trail? No, we kind of shifted them both around a little bit, so it's still within the property line. Which it always has been, we just kind of rotated a little bit, and then we sort of enhanced the patios that are along there, so that it wouldn't go over that line. So this was the original elevation from last time, and then we had used this to talk to the folks at the enclave about what that gap was and what they were seeing. So the red was the PUD original PUD massing and then the rendering was where we were last time. And so this is a little bit hard to read so we'll skip over it kind of quick. But then in red is kind of where we were last time and the dark behind it is Where we are today so when we go to the next one so you can see the bridge at level three is down there And then you can start to see where that gap gets a bit more of the view corridor into connect from village way back up to the enclave and Just it kind of enhances that whole pedestrian path and leads people down there a little bit more. Becky, I had some difficulty trying to determine what view I was looking at. From, yeah. Those because they didn't seem to be, at least I couldn't find on them where they were labeled either by direction or some way I could try to orient where they were. Okay and the elevations are in this one. This one? Generally all of those that showed the proposed versus the previous. Okay so on this one see the little key up on top. Yeah I did see that. Yeah. So that little yellow piece is where we're standing to take that picture. Right? Yeah, so that white. You're standing at the back of that little triangle. In the enclave. Yeah. And the white down in front is actually the roof of the grogges at the enclave. So that's taken from the pool deck? So it's taken up from their pool, looking over their grudges at it. So the white makes it a little confusing to look at that too, right? Is that a wall or what is it? But it's actually their grudge roofs. Yeah, so you can, in the yellow trying to look there, goes over it a little bit. But behind the yellow is on top of those. Roots. It's kind of on top of those roofs. It's not taken from the hot tub. It's taken from the pool deck, correct? Yeah, we're trying to take it from the pool deck because that's where they wanted to make sure it was. Yeah, that's from OK. That's up basically two levels. Yeah. And where they sit, they're about a story or two higher than the third level bridge, actually. So they sit about at level five or six of our building. Anything do you want me to look at, do you guys want to look at the site plan again or those elevations or do you move any questions on the site plan? I'll just pause before I We're going to just flip through them again so we can just... So this was, yeah, yeah, this was the original. So see, we had the big gable where the pink path is. We had the big gable and a lot of mass where you had to walk a long way along building 10b. So we really shortened in the new plan. We really shortened that length. So it just didn't feel like you were going for so long next to a building. I think it improved it a lot. A lot more landscaping. A lot more landscaping. Yeah, a lot more sunlight, a lot more landscape. And a lot more visibility from when you come off the ski back trail on the patio that's up to the top right. When you get up those stairs, you have a lot more visibility over to the landscape and the pool amenity you're not looking just at the building anymore so I think I think it improved the place. Is that the storage for the employees in the garage? Is it like a cage or is it a door with a lock? I think it's like a door with a lot. It's like about five by three. Yeah, the door. So you could hang bikes in it and put skis in it. I mean, it's a big enough room to store your stuff. All the toys at 15 feet. Woo! Yeah. There would be a shot at 10 feet in there. Talk about Matson's toys. It's just a service 13. I'll wrap it up. OK. I think it looks really neat. I think it looks a lot better. Yeah, it was OK. But we're going to talk about B at some point. 10B in the height and the number of units and what have you. OK. OK. Just to point out, the number of units have not changed in 10AB. The square footage has changed a little bit. Yes, square footage went up and we pushed up basically another level. Yes. Okay. Okay. Can you point out the 10A restaurant as well? Yep. So the end on the way to the viceroy that you can see the outdoor dining on the lower left, right? So that's the restaurant. And then yeah, I didn't mention, I didn't show it on the plan, but then that is retail all the way along there. And so we've changed the grading and tweak that so we could have that retail. So it's still out and be a lot more friendly with the path with the village way. And the other, I don't remember if I saw it in this packet here or it was mentioned about skiing in off the ski back trail what was happening with the ski back trail? Can you spend some time commenting on what's happening there? So there's two ski endpoints, but the main one is up top right on the top right and so you can ski into that There's a fire pit some some tables, some seating, and then there's a stair access that climbs up the hill there and gets up to the sidewalk on Upper Wood Road. So that access allows people from Upper Wood Road and that bus stop right there to get down to the ski back trail. Is that heated? Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Deval. Obviously, safety here. Yeah. And then so there's two nodes, which is kind of nice along there. And then we have the sort of more private one, but that's also ski back trail access on that side. So it creates some activity and some animation along the ski back trail, which I think is nice. So if I were at the uncle,, I come down the ski back trail, could I enter on that level three and then walk back out the building or would I have to go up the stairs there to get to the uncle? I think the easiest way is to come down the stairs right there and you're right on the snow. Yeah, I just remember how we used to have to do that when I lived at the enclave. Okay. Well, it's actually to me, having been there also, it looks like a benefit to enclave, to enclave residents, because now instead of having to take the Fannie Hill, you know, and take the, and take the assay hill rather and take an extra lift. They can just walk across the street. Great. Yeah. And they don't have to go up the stairs at the back of the young club to get. Yeah, that too. Yeah. And going through the building is tougher just because they don't want all the skis in there. Yeah. Like even the people that are in this building, they don't want the skis coming through the building. I think that adding that stair on the wood road side there, I think that was a very good idea and I suspect it's going to get a fair amount of use. Did you increase the grade or decrease? I thought I saw somewhere about 10 feet, something about the ski back or in my ski I don't know if we did that. There was something somewhere. I remember that too. Yeah, so we increased the building height just where the of 10b, we increased the building height by 10 feet to get the units that we moved off onto the top. It's not the whole building height, but one of the ridges went up. Then we played with the finished floor elevation along the ski back trail to get it to be just a gentle way into those tables so you didn't have to walk up any stairs when you went into that. Becky, those trees that you've got drawing in there, are they currently at the enclave? Yeah, so you know when you're standing on the enclave pool deck it's like a forest to look out, right? That's those trees. Well, but yeah. We thinned them out for the rendering. They're pretty thick. Just as long as my George keeps them all lit. Yeah. Yeah. But that's about the height that they are. I mean, they're pretty tall. They're mature trees. Yeah. I had a question about the pool area. Is it gated off? Yeah, the pool would have a gate around it. We have to do that for a code. Where does that gate go? So with a gate, you could see it's kind of like a pool fence and it's coming around the backside of those lounge chairs right there. So we're trying to keep as much landscape and open spaces we can, but then keeping the pool enclosure for code a little bit tight to the lounge. Go Billy. What's the programming for that area at the other end we are talking about the tables and the... Right. So what I think is that's a little fire pit in there you can correct me if I'm gonna talk to the landscape guys But there's a there's kind of like a fireplace like vice Roy ish where it's flat But in tables around it and some seating and it's sort of different levels right there and Nice little terrace is that public public or private private Is that public or private? Private. It's intended to be the ski valet type access that you have at the vice words today. In terms of the services provided. But doesn't mean they can't walk through way to go up those stairs. Yeah, the stairs aren't private. So ski storage right there? For the 10A-B unit owners, that's where they should drop their skis off and hang out by the fire and get a... It's not Coco. And you can't get a little restaurant right there where people can get hot chocolate or sit out and enjoy the sun on that deck. I'm thinking about the vice-rage you come in through the nest and... Right. Maybe it's tough. It's tough with a grading because it's so far down there. Sure, it's a tough grade. I'm just thinking about when people see chairs in a fire pit. Yeah. I want to go there, mom. Yeah. Stop here. Yeah. It's the same thing I was saying about seven and eight. Let me see that area. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. What's next? Other views? And that is actually all for the amendments to the application with regards to building 7 and 10 AB. We do have additional views if there's something in particular that you would like to review prior to deciding. Okay. What we have though is the attachment as an amendment, detachment five, request by SAC, which deals with building seven and 10 AB specifically. So that's where we will focus at this time. Madam Mayor, you should have also received a copy of a letter from the enclave homeowners who have indicated that they do not object to the proposed changes. And Mike, I think I saw. Mike, did you want to, since the public doesn't know about this letter, do you want to come forward and Where as a homeowners of enclave Relative to that or I'll read the letter Yeah, please come up and name and Yeah, here you go I'm going to be seated. There you go. Hello, my name is Mike George. I'm the General Manager of Slamass Lodging Company. I'm here representing the enclave because Mel Blumenthal is out of town. Mel wrote an email to the town council and various other parties on September 7th and reads his follows on behalf of the enclave homeowners association. I wish to advise you. We've had several recent meetings with the representatives of related Jim Digestino, Craig Monzio, and their architect regarding the Enclave's issues, which are more specifically delineated in our prior written communications, concerning related preliminary plan application, and which have been, which have previously been made part of the public record concerning the siding of buildings 10 A and B on proposed combined lots four and six as well as a connection to base village from the enclave and the adjacent bus stops on Wood Road. The shale served to confirm that we are in agreement with related proposed changes as specified in the amendment to their PUD application as more specifically described in the town council packet. For the town council meeting schedule for September 8, 2015. Please include this email as part of the public record and it's matter. Thank you, Mike. So we have letters been read into the record representing the enclave homeowners which were in agreement with the suggestions and the proposed amendment. There are just a minor point to you ease and what have you. Do we want to go through those as well this time, Julianne, before we consider accepting the amendment or remaining it? Well the applicant can share with you the changes, but they're fairly nominal in the bigger screen of things. You want to go through them for a public record? Yes, I can definitely do that. Becky can talk more about the design. I can talk about the impacts of UE. So with having to redesign 10B to make the changes to the width or the gap between the two buildings as well as taking the massing off of upward road, that massing was relocated to the top of the building. And by, you know, trying to relocate units, you're not always going to be exact in terms of the overall square footage. And the way the UE works, the calculation, one square foot can jump you up by 0.5. This time, it's only 0.2, but just because of natural movement and redesigning of the or creating this upper level, the overall square footage increased by 1,900, 2-square feet and the UE has increased by 0.2. We are not asking for an increase to the maximum UE specified in the application at 416.75 and when we get into variations, there will be that change from 2.11 for the FAR to 2.12 to accommodate that increase of 1900 square feet. Becky had mentioned the height of this building does not exceed what was previously entitled for the Lot 6, 10 AB buildings. That maximum height is set at 8501, which sits below the maximum height of building 5, as well as building 11. Didn't I say anything? No, I didn't say anything. Any questions for Craig, Rebecca? Okay, we're going to go back. Julianne, at this point, go back and look at your cover memo regarding the options that Council can consider. And this is the section 16 A534K. The three options included that we would not allow the amendment option to, the amendment would be allowed but the Planning Commission would have an opportunity to review the amendment and make a recommendation there on or we could ask town council to go ahead and allow the amendment and the application would proceed without additional hearings or consideration thereof. It's not allowed. We could consider the application without amendment and it coordinates with the provisions of this section. If an additional planning commission recommendation is to be made, the town council may edit discretion, table the application until it has received a planning commission's recommendation on the amendment and another option is to remand. And the remand means an application may also be remanded to the Planning Commission when the town council determines that the application has otherwise been altered in a significant manner before following the Planning Commission's action on the preliminary PUD. The town council shall table the application until it has received the planning commission's recommendation on the changes. So I'm going to open up the discussion. Did I get that correct? Yes. Okay. So I'll open for discussion to council. My suggestion would be that we would allow the changes we requested to changes. We've seen the changes that have come back which seem to be acceptable from what I hear seeing terms ahead now it's here. But I would like my fellow council persons to weigh and that would be alternative number three. I'm, I tend to think that the changes followed the directions that were provided by both the Planning Commission and the Council. I don't see really any change in architectural design. Mass and scale appears to be similar and within the approved height, obviously, within the approved levels. level. So I'm fairly comfortable, I'm fairly comfortable approving it here rather than sending it back to planning commission. Is that a motion or? Well, no, it wasn't a motion. I just one person's thoughts. I agree with Bob. I mean, I feel like if the, I mean, the enclave is clearly happy with the choices, you know, the difference in how it was before. And I don't know. I mean, I don't really have any issue with it. What you're doing? Yeah, it sounds like they've been very accommodating. I'd like to go ahead and make an improvement to approve this and not send it back to the planning commission. Do I have a motion accordingly? So moved. Thank you, Bill. Do I have second? Second? Bob can second it. Just to be clear, Bill used the word approve this and I think he means to say approve except the amendment. Sorry. Yep. I'm sure that's what you met. Thank you Mr. Dresser. So we have a second on the table. Do I have any further discussion? I'll in support say aye. Aye. Opposed? Same sign. Okay, thank you very, very much. And now we'll move into the next discussion. Julian. Are you ready to tackle Building 7? Or did you feel like you got enough? I think Building 7 is on that. You'll find with the architectural design. We may be coming back to transportation and circulation at some point. Yeah, that's what I was wondering about. So the next topic on our agenda here for you to discuss is a community purpose and the variance requests. So and that was part of the reason why we gave you that matrix so that you can kind of compare what it was. It wasn't titled as opposed to what it is that they're proposing to help you with your decision making. So Craig, are you up? I am up. So community purpose, it's something that a lot of people are interested in, obviously. The room is full this evening. It's something that we care a lot about and that we have reached out to the community in many different forms over the last two years or so. And it's in accordance with the comprehensive plan, we're trying to be a leading multi-season, family-oriented inclusive mountain resort community. Base Village is key in creating or being in line with this comprehensive plan. So when we're looking at the community purpose we really wanted to make sure that we were creating something unique. Something different, something that was multi-seasonal, multi-generational, promotes cultural and recreational and also family-centric activities. You know, we've heard a lot of different opinions of what this community purpose should be, and it's impossible to accommodate every person's interest into the plan, but at the same time, we're able to look for common themes throughout all those different ideas and to put those into buckets and see how we can best address each of those specific larger topics. And we heard consistently that Snowmass Discovery was something of great importance to this community and needed to be Included in the plan somehow or another and you know providing a cultural experience that doesn't really exist Or is not currently in the proposed base village plan which we think is is very important for differentiating snowmass Among all the other mountain resorts in North America Also wanting to improve the overall activities that are offered within base village. And we've heard from the council that ice skating was something of great importance. Water feature that we all know the water feature in Aspen is super crowded on weekends and loved by people of all different ages. And we thought that it was important to incorporate something like that within STEMS-based village. And obviously we saw this in Bale and Bieber Creek as well. And also creating a multipurpose space that can flex during different seasons to allow for concerts, to allow for an enlarged farmer's market. And to have theater in the park, movie nights, those types of different events. And we had to engage the best in the industry in order to accomplish this because there was a lot to try to fit into this small area. So we engaged with Olin. They are one of the top five landscape architects in the world. Most famous for Brian Park, Becky Stone has been working with Olin and she'll be presenting on their behalf this evening with regards to the lot to plaza and then Harry Teeck. Harry Teeck doesn't really need an introduction. I think everyone knows who Harry Teeck is and we wanted to make sure we created an iconic building for this community purpose offering, which is adjacent to the lot to plaza. And Harry is with us this evening and he'll be walking through the specific plans for that building. So at this point, I'm gonna turn it over to Becky Stone and she's gonna walk through the Latu Plaza. And we looked at this a little bit last time, so but you guys can stop me in between because everybody in the community might not have seen that. But this right here is the plaza area. So it sort of goes along the village way there on the edge and then comes in between the new limelight hotel, building four and building six. So I'm going to show a few different plans that Olin came up with and how this plaza could be used because the ultimate goal is it's very flexible, like Craig will say, and then it could be used for multitude of different ways to program it basically. So I'll just run through some of those and so everybody gets kind of an idea how it would look in different ways. So this show this got closer so I can use the arrows. So this drawing right here shows where you could have some seating, where were you getting that mouse gray. Oh, access into building six, you know, coming up from this side of the plaza and in through this entrance right here, this side kind of creeps around and addresses the public walkway so that it's entered into. This is where the fountain is. This is kind of the really big flexible public space. There's public seating along the side by the limelight. There's public seating that can flow out from this building six. We haven't put all the furniture onto the site plans yet in the in the submittals. So in our final submittal we can have the furniture drawing that shows all the site furniture and so we can we can enhance that with this. We get the lawn. So this sort of shows the circulation plan where if you have an event you can go around it, there's however it's stage that we can go through it coming into the limelight hotel and keeping that very open as I was so critical and then also coming into building six. So keeping those pedestrian paths very easy to see and understand. Okay, this program diagram shows the program with an ice rink. So this would be the approximate location of the ice rink. It has these small pavilions that could be set up. So we could rent skates there, have hot cocoa out of the cart. So it just becomes very active around there. Seating here again is the seating on top of that building six or on that plaza, and then the limelight hotel and the seating around the edge. Some images of the skating rink and kind of winter activities. And this is a little diagram of what that could look like. And again, very like we were fairly open. Now, it's not covered. It's very with the environment. And the size of the ice skating rink just for reference point again. That is. So the plans show the square ring, obviously. It won't be square. We are currently working with the landscape team to see how we could enlarge this ice. The goal is forward to be similar to what is in Aspen in front of the high end. I'm flanking the name of the ice skating ring, but I think everyone knows it. Silver City. Silver City. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Tom. In front of the CP burger trails. Yeah. That's the one. OK, this one shows a movie night. So a screen could be set up. We could project a movie onto the screen towards the building six side. And then the show's just sort of how the people would free form and set up their blankets and sort of be able to populate that plaza in a not so structured way, not structured seating, but a little bit more parkish. So that here's an example or a few examples of what that is, you know, just a little bit more hangout. And I'm not sure if they're still on the screen to accommodate 500 people. OK, 500 people for a movie night. Is it worth showing there? Good point, yeah. So this one, so this would be a more structured concert venue. So where you'd have some fix seating or, you know, temporary seating that we'd put in there. Heck. So this I think was 300 people. So 300 movable seats plus people, you know, could surround in the back. Of course this, we talked about last time a little bit, but this is a fire lane that we need to keep open, but people can be moving along here all the time when there's a concert. So we just don't count that in the seating But a lot of space and again putting a stage or Platform at the front towards building six to really use that for concerts So here's or wedding the sore yeah any kind of venue like that where you'd have fixed some seating and just one of these images I think really helps tell the story in terms of how building six and the plaza could really interact with each other. So it is in Harry will get into the design of building six, but there is design to have garage-type doors on building six that open up into the plaza. You can tent it as you're seeing here for events, or you can have it open air, as you can see on the right side free flowing out into the lot two plaza. So what are those lights that are on the right hand side and you know go from right to left to look like three layer, three bands of light or four bands of light. They're rope lights similar to what you see down in Denver at least. So they're just a of lights. They're rope lights, similar to what you see down in Denver at Leeds. So they're just still string lights? They're string light across the plaza. Yeah, that you could put them up and take them down, but it gives it a little canopy over the head, right? Right. That would be more like movie night or a concert. Okay, this is like the farmer's market layout. So again, we have to keep that fire lane open, but clustering the farmer's market layout. So again, we have to keep that fire lane open, but clustering the farmer's market tense, a craft fair, things like that. People's fair in the middle of that plaza. I don't know if we put the number of tents on here. Yeah, we didn't, we didn't locate it on there. Yeah. Yeah, so in this one it just shows 15 tents and again, you know the clusters of seating and tables that can really be mobile and moved around in any of these ways that we set up the plaza Which is sort of interesting and I was changing so it's not always the same Yeah, the difference between the farmers market today over in the beach. It's encumbered by fire lane So it's very difficult to have large enough number of pervaders to keep people interested. So this definitely provides a lot more flexibility. There will also be anchors built into the plaza to accommodate tenting. So that is definitely something of importance and we know that this will be used for many different types of activities. So this is just a question that I don't know if it's been thought through. Who is responsible for programming this space? Is it related or metro district or who or how or just to cut through the chase and say it's all lovely? But somebody's going to take some accountability here to program it. Absolutely. It's intended to be owned by the Master Association. The Master Association will be responsible for the management operation of this space. Master Association serves the residences or the residents of the owners within base village to provide vitality and to develop events that enhance the overall offering and base village. That's why it has been established. So they are the best entity to take over ownership and operations of this specific plaza area. The operating plan will be in accordance with the approval. If the PUD approval states there must be ice getting from Thanksgiving till the lift stop turning. That is what will be the governing document would be the PUD in terms of what needs to be included in the programming in terms of the use of the space and the town's access to using this plaza. We'll work with John Dresser and our turn in Joe Kraybacher has been in talks with John preliminary talks, but until we get to final or until we get through this before final, we wanted to make sure that this was an acceptable plan and then we'll work with John to make sure that the use agreement with the town is acceptable for the town's needs in terms of their ability to program. So I'm going to say our request would be something to have it operate something similar to the events line does currently. Okay. So just to. Is there someone within the master association that has that has a job now? Yes, we do have someone that actually works part time for the master association that does help with programming. works part time for the Master Association that does help with programming. She has Rachel Goodman, has assembled Sunday, Sunday, Latissia Hanky and Rachel developed VIK. There's just some of the programming that has been put on by the Master Association among other events that has been put on throughout this past winter. So I would see a strong relationship between three parties, Asman's skiing company, the Town Council, and then the Master Association. So I'm going to assume this is part of legal conversations that ongoing between the parties. Any direction that get from council certainly makes it easier at the next step because I mean I can put a framework together but it's up to you how you want it to work. I would, this is me and I'm speaking as an individual on council. I see it extremely important. There would be fluidity amongst three parties since Aspen's King Company does use the events law. Our town uses the events, I'm just using it as an example, to make sure that we have some way that we, the town staff, our marketing and tourism staff, have a strong relationship with whomever is a, that is a Metro District person. One of the concerns that's been brought up and discussed is, I mean, it's a great plaza in order to, to be community purpose and needs to be community wide. And an example that's been talked about on more than one occasion is, we want to make sure that a wedding of 200 people doesn't preclude something large like wanderlust. And that's why if we have a document similar to the events lawn, we've got a higher level of control on that and I understand the concept of partnership, but there are some bigger events that we as the town bring in. We'd want to make sure that we're helping prioritize some of those larger events and those that aren't being precluded by an eight-year-old birthday party or something else. That's kind of where I was going to go. Well, I mean, just listening to Markey and you Clint, it sounds like you're talking about the same thing. We are. That the three entities, the SkiCo and the Mass Association and the town, really need to be on a coordinated basis for doing the programming for this plaza. Correct. I think just, you know, as a town, our priorities are slightly different than the other two entities potentially just because we do different types of events. And the event law, on the way it is now, we get a final say in some of that programming, even though it's owned by SkiCo. You get priority. We get priority. Town gets priority. I don't know how to do that. No. But we certainly get to work with the scheduling and ensure that birthday parties and weddings are not precluding other big large events. And that's the type of thing. We need to make sure it continues with the plaza to keep with that community benefit. Are we in agreement that we think that should continue to happen on the plaza? Exactly. I am. Yeah, absolutely. OK. And that was included as a condition in the planning commission's resolution as well. It's not as specific as saying ski company in the time, but it just says, develop a management plan for the lot two plaza area and that was their intent. Okay. Moving on. This is okay, and moving on from the farmers market here. So this was an image of the farmers market and the pop jet fountain in the front. Oh, that's all I got. Thank you. On Terry. Do you have any slides that would show different sun angles at different times a year. I know there was some material in volume three, but I don't know if you would have any of that on slides so that the rest of the community might be able to see what that looked like. I do have those with me. If we can maybe turn to building six and then I can have the shadow studies ready to go on the screen. Or if you just give me a couple minutes, I can just put those on a thumb drive real quick. What would you like to do? Well, I think what we want to do is kind of see those sun angles because I do know it came up last week, I do think, in terms of some public comment. while you do that we'll take a five minute. Okay thank you and I really mean five minutes. Okay. We're the break to allow us to get the shadow studies up Becky will walk through these specific shadow studies which do highlight the lot too pausa. Okay so we have four different pages because we did shadow studies in March, June, September, and December then. We kind of did the season break. So this is March and you can see it's at 9 a.m., 12 p.m., and at 3 p.m., so we kind of did that consistently for all those different times of the season. So you guys oriented, see building five is kind of up on the top left right for all those different times of the season. So you guys oriented, see building five is kind of up on the top left right because we only have a little section of it there. So you can tell what's in the shade and which is not in the shade. Well, there's some look. So I was having trouble understanding what is in shade and what's in sun. So this is shade here. So you have different levels of shade there Craig? No but there's a hatch pattern that's the pavers. So that's the hatch pattern yeah where Craig's pointing to and then the shade is actually the sort of dark gray. So let's just say at 12 p.m. that hatch pattern is gray, but is that shade, is that semi-shade or is that sun? It's full sun. So at 12 p.m. the only shadow is uptight to the line of light that's the shadow right there. Okay. That's the shadow right there. That's what I couldn't understand because I wasn't sure if I was reading that hatch and that change in color as some sort of light shade or a part shade. Yeah, it's in full sun. And then even more full sun at 3 PM. It was in March. and that's in March. So we'll go to the same 12pm. That might be easier. So we can, yeah, so again at 9am in June, you could see the shadows a little bit longer, but along the limelight hotel edge, very short shadow along the limelight hotel edge, very short shadow along the limelight hotel at 12 noon and then hardly and then it's pretty much full-sign at three. You didn't do any of like, operate time? We did and then we did three. But like later than the? No, we didn't do, no. We've ski schools out. Yeah, we could probably do that. We just tried to take it on like the main and only because if people are like if their kids are out of ski school or you know They're coming down before movie like what's the temperature like at that time? Because of the shade my guess is it's gonna be pretty pretty sunny No, it's because it's the other way because the sun's I guess yeah, yeah Yeah other way because the sun's. I guess yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We do. So, you have any December? Yeah. Yeah, we do. So this is September 21st then. So the shadow is getting longer. So what you're talking about with the cold, we might see that in December at 3 o'clock, a lot more. So in September already, the limelight hotel shadow is getting a little bigger on the plaza. But by 3 pm, it's pretty sunny in there, but you get the shadow coming from 4aB from the gondola side long. So how does it look on that outdoor cafe that's proposed on building six? Okay, so the... Yeah. You pick it. Yeah, this is like winter right this is December so stay on that one once That's like the opera ski because like at 12 noon on that plaza It's it's very sunny right so you could create can put well The shadows coming from the wall of the plaza holding what I was thinking about down there on the building. The shadow just take that 12 noon in December for a minute. The shadow is over the little porch area in front of the limelight. Yep. Right? Yep. So that's in shadow and and what about the the outdoor area where that little cafe is. That's right down there. So that's pretty much in sun, but there's a wall at the back that holds up the plaza, right? There's a pretty big grade change right there. So the wall casts a shadow on the backside of that, but on the village wayside, it's in the sun there. And then at Opresky going towards 3 p.m., it is pretty shadowy on that side. Like that's the one you're thinking of, because I mean even at four o'clock, at three or four o'clock right, that building four starts to cast a pretty long shadow when the mountains coming across. And that's why I think more people will try to aim down to building seven and eight moons that's seeding. Yeah, that's the cafe, but the deck outside, which is the gray area is in the sun. I'm, excuse me, I'm a hairy teagot. But I'm just, you're right, you're right. Harry, grab the mic. You're asking you asked, and I'm pointing it out. Yeah, that's right. At three o'clock, that plaza as opposed to the area that's just vegetation to the right would be in the sun. That's right. Yeah. Okay, you want to see anything else on that? No, anybody else want to see anything on? Okay, moving on. I'll switch with Harry. Thanks. Are we talking about the problem? Until we get a building six. We're getting ready to do building six now. All right. Oh, that's my question. I'm talking about building six. I am a very happy to really appreciate the opportunity to present this opportunity for you that I really believe in. I think I mentioned this my last time before you that been connected with snowmass since it was born and my career began and when I worked for Fritz Benedict back in the mid-60s and I think that this project and what I get to do which is at least propose a building that I think enhances this opportunity immensely. For a snowmast to get a heart, a center, a place, a city planner's dream that it hasn't had for its entire existence up to now. A real center, a real heart. What we have now is the opportunity and maybe to overstate it a little bit, but to create the Rockefeller Center, the Gidelli Circus, the Piazza San Marco, the place, the real place where people can gather in the community. And that has a lot of different ingredients that make those kind of places work and they all seem to be falling into line in this case and the building that I'm talking about is one of those ingredients. It's completely symbiotic that that location has and fortunate the creation of something that has the potential for a community use, a year round, a multi-purpose facility that also has at its core a major cultural experience that's unique to any resort in the west that I can think of. The combination of this place that is in a way economical to build on to make a really wonderful center because the parking garage is below it. That is in a location where it encounters the maximum amount of interaction in a natural way as visitors arrive and depart the center. It has a scale that's just right. It's in a location as we just saw from the shadow angles that has a place for a plaza that can be in the sun at the end of the day for those places where people want to event. It also maybe shades the plaza. It works together with the plaza. The building doesn't shade the plaza but the plaza you know in the winter when you're trying to keep ice, gets a little shadow and so on. It's actually pretty nice early in the day, not too much sun. All these things I think work together to make a rather extraordinary opportunity. The, let's see, I think that the real thing that but in one of the purposes that that has been on everybody's mind When we talk about community purpose is Is vitality right now this building can happen very quickly It provides as I've expressed multi-level kind of as I've expressed multi-level kind of use and vitality, starting with the Discovery Center. Tom will describe, but the Discovery Center in more detail, Tom Cardamon. But as a year-round attraction that can involve education, a multi-age interest, a kind of an area where events can happen in conjunction with a cultural purpose. When you think of it, you know, the large museums, Denver Natural History, Museum of Natural History, whatever, all get our in huge demand as places for events for nonprofits and so on. Mixing those kind of things up as a very, very important, I would say, an emerging use for both facilities, for nonprofits and other groups that need a place to meet and that's unique and interesting and whatnot. And then the institution itself benefits from the exposure to the people that come and meet at it. So all these things I think converge in this rather extraordinary location. As a community center, again, I think having something in the middle of activity is one of the things that we've been missing. We have many, many attractions that are on the periphery, rodeos and Anderson Ranch and events that are happening out on the periphery of the town. What we really want is something that brings people into the heart of things. And that is a benefit to the community. It's a benefit to the commercial activity in the town, but it's also a benefit to the community of a whole. You get these symbiosis of different events all happening in one place. This building would also include a coffee, a cafe, again, and a critical ingredient when you think of the great sort of plazas and public places that you've been. They combine a monumental and iconic event of some sort, an informal social event of some sort, a place where lots of people can gather, see each other in mix and so on, and all of those things come together in this marvelous location. And so now what I'd like to do is just explain how this particular building enhances all those ideas. Excuse me, I'd like to stand up. Don't let me get in the way here. All right, so what we have here is the arrival center where they come out on Village Way and so on. And what we have is a one story structure right opposite that with the cafe in it. It becomes a first stop for lots of people on their way to skiing, go and get a nice cup of what is it? Cafe, latte, mocha, something or other and so on with all that stuff. And you know, get yourself going and so on with all that stuff and you know get yourself going and so on. At the same time we've never been there you see through glass windows here a passageway that connects up into the plaza and so on and what we're anticipating the way that we're integrating the science and the cultural activity is that we're anticipating a parade of scaled animals that indicate what was discovered in the reservoir, including mammoths, mastodons, sloths, short nose bears, and whatnot. And they actually march from the outside through the building with a larger scale animals being inside the building to the outside. The idea is that this engages the people as they arrive in snowmess and they'll go into more detail. But just in general from the location this building, then with this hallway that connects the two, the arrival in the plaza, becomes one of the major passages ways onto the plaza. Over here is on top of the, the cafe is an outdoor patio that we mentioned, that's in the sun for a lot of the time and Then a porch along this side that flows out into the plaza that allows the uses that are inside the building to flow out and integrate into the plaza Okay, so now maybe we should go to the plan itself That's not my build. Oh,. Okay, that was the other thing I guess was that the location of the building is located in the, so that maybe just go back a little and don't point why or how. But that this particular passageway, rather than presenting a multi-story front as you come out. As you come out of the visitor center, you have a one-story center in front of you that allows you to see the plaza and then the mountain above it and so on. Over here is this gap that goes through that allows you to see the visitor center, I mean the Discovery Center, in between the Arrival Center and Building 8. So the location, as I say, has turned out again with a rather wonderful serendipitous arrangement to be one of the things that you see as you come up to the village of Snowmass. And all that is glass? That's glass in that front. We'll look at that more carefully One of the things that you see as you come up to the village is snowmass. And all that is glass. That's glass in that front. We'll look at that more carefully when we look at the building itself. So here's level one plan with a village way coming along like this. The passage way through, it's a two story building. We have as you arrive and come up, we're imagining that there's almost a landscape like ascension from the lower level to the upper level, by and through and around the animal exhibits and so on. We have an exhibit area on the main level, another over here, and these are all on the lower level. And they have the opportunity to be made into dark spaces. We're being very flexible right now, but the idea that some of that could be converted into a modest sized cinematic theater that would be used by the Discovery Center or the, you know, for other uses as well. But there's a lot of flexibility in this space as we're proposing it. We would propose to work with, as Tom will mention, some of the best exhibit designers and so on in the country. So on the upper level, we have, again, we have exhibit areas that look down onto this central area that comes through. We have this area here which would flow out directly onto the plaza, and this area here which flows out onto the deck over the cafe, both of those interior spaces can be enlarged and enhanced for events that have large numbers of people, people that space itself might not hold. So when the weather is right, they can flow directly out into the landscape. And there are facilities here, toilet facilities and whatnot. On this level we had if you go back just to that lower level I mentioned. The, there's a possibility of moving these for the mechanical area in the, in the, in the restrooms and whatnot under the bench that was over here under the porch of this building. It has a porch back to the upper level. It has a covered area that goes along here so that these, while they open and flow out to the plaza also are covered by a porch that could be used extend the time of year that all of that could get used So here's a view as you come out of the arrival center This is the cafe It would flow into the event center. There's administrative things that have to happen, appreciate all those concerns, they all have to get worked out. How much flow does that have into the discovery center? But I think just from my point of view, the maximum amount of interaction is better. Having the cafe flow into the Discovery Center, have the Discovery Center flow into the public use spaces. All of these things promote the kind of interaction and involvement and make this thing a more vital component in your community. How does it all up here in the front? Oh, yes, it's okay. But how does all this flow work if there's an admission fee for this museum? Well, I think that has to get worked out, but if you've been to a lot of museums now, the admission is optional. The fee, you get a ticket, you get a button. And if you go to the museum, you pay and you go in. I'm just suggesting one else. Yeah, no, I understand. I'm just trying to figure out in my head, we certainly want to have the cafe being open as a public entity. It almost seems to me that if the likelihood is that there will be admission to this museum, how we separate those things out and you know and still I understand you really would like to have the flow even if there were flow from the front to the back. Just walking through it would encourage people to maybe pay something to go look at the exhibits. I kind of get that but I just don't necessarily see how it, you know, this is set up that way, that's all. Right. And Tom shouldn't address this and so on. I won't go into it, but I would just say that the examples of where you actually, if you're participating in the event, you pay whatever the recommended donation is, and then you get to wear the button, and then if you're hanging out in the exhibits, rather than just walking through, it's pretty apparent that you're allowed to be there. There are ways I think where you can kind of get a both-hand. Yeah. How many stories is it building, Carrie? It's two stories on this side, and one story on the plaza side. So we'll look at this. This is a large two stories, probably, but it goes up in this center portion as a full two stories high. There's room for, I think we checked out the Wolley-Mammoth was something like, I don't know, 13, 14 feet high or something. So you need some room over his head. You want to see it like in the wonderful natural history African room where you're kind of walking up the sides, looking down on these as well as walking around and under its legs and things. One other question, several other questions Harry. Can you go back to the one that showed the porch? Yeah. Okay, this was a plan that showed the porch, right? And how wide would the porch be? Well, we're showing that I think at 12 feet. 12 feet. So there could be seating along that porch. Okay, one other question. Then if we were, I'm not speaking for anybody else, but me right now, if you were to push that up one level and we had rooftop, you know, type of activity a little bit higher and a little bit larger because that doesn't really look that big For all praski is there any way that could be accommodated if we were to go up one story Yeah, I think I think it's possible the question is the price should pay is the obstruction of the view from the other side In other words as you're you're arriving, those shadows that we talked about, all that different stuff. I think what really works here is that you have a building that's iconic in shape, identifiable and so on, but not sort of monstrous in mass. And that really, I think, whatever. I mean, I agree. I understand the vitality idea. But what would be inside those rooms, what would bring people up to that upper level? Maybe, you know, you're... I was thinking of something similar to the Aspen Art Museum. I mean, there's a lot of vitality up there. It's got beautiful views. Whereas building seven and eight, that's a private deck. Isn't that a good standing not one that the public could enjoy. Well I think you know there's nothing absolutely frozen in this design but I think what we have done is put together the different ingredients that that work so I mean there's always open to discussion. So what you do have is this which has some pretty terrific views and and does in fact, it's slightly higher. I forget, I think it's four feet higher than the level of the plaza. So I think it has a good relationship to the plaza in the way that you're talking about. You're above enough so that you can look out and see what's going on on the other side of the plaza, but you're not sort of towering it above it. You can walk onto this easily, walk off it easily. The idea would be that it was integral. So the notion would be the cafe would be two tiers? No, not necessarily. We haven't figured out, I don't know if the cafe actually would run the open space on the second floor. that would be part of the second floor of the Discovery Center. But it would be obviously available if you walk through the Discovery Center to go out onto the plaza there. So let's do a couple more pictures here. So here's your plaza again, cafe, the side. We are extending the elevator. One of the things about the building is the elevator that starts out in the bottom of the parking garage comes up through this building, provides access to this building and through it and then goes up. So that's been integrated into the design of the building. And there's another one. So here's a set of applause of you imagining a giant slob greeting you and one of the maybe a bison or something inside. These are all just suggestions. We have to go through all this with the top. Here's how the landscape as you come up and go through, you'd walk around some of the exhibits and see them at different sizes and different scales. Be able to look down on them. The exhibit tree, which could include, you know, because of the, you know, these extinct animals were caused by a kind of climate change that it becomes very appropriate to extend information about current climate change into the exhibit tree so that the nature of this isn't static, that it keeps growing and changing and evolving as are concerned about some of these issues. So different scales, interactive exhibits of all sorts, tangible ones, ones I think that would attract people of all ages again. And I'd see a very important time can expand on that, but this would be a kind of thing that would be dynamic in change so that you wouldn't be a one-stop shop, you'd be coming back to actually see things that changed. Materials, these are fairly basic, but we're using a cementitious board on the side, metal roofs, and so on. I think these are things that we will go into more detail later. But they, they, they, both, I think, give a softness to the building, but also make it unique. And as I said, the part of the, part of the idea is that this building be something somewhat slightly different than the rest of the fabric of snowmassing general, compatible with, compatible with but different from. On that second floor deck. Yeah. Can that come out to match the edge of building one where I would think the cafe is or the first floor? See, I see the fence on the second. Can that come all the way across? Can the structure support it? It the structure can. One of the choices we made was to not bring the deck exactly to the edge. And again, these are things just design choices that we've made to present a realistic proposition that they certainly could. Part of the reason we're doing this, this edge would have some sort of green roof situation on it so that you're not kind of standing on the edge, looking over the edge of a deck, you're actually set back slightly. And on the other side, on the cafe, I mean on the plaza side, it would flow directly onto the plaza. On this side, you don't want it necessarily overhanging the people that are dining down here, I wouldn't think. We're not for that kind of a second story. Whatever it is on the cloud. Yeah, I just keep seeing that as a wonderful cocktail that one's up there. Yeah, I just keep seeing that as a wonderful cocktail that one's up there. Yeah, I can imagine. Harry, I'm not sure if this is a question for you or for Craig. So whichever one please go ahead. But on the left hand side of that building, well on the left hand side of this slide, what's the distance between the left edge of that building and building five? That might be in the site plan, but somebody that knows the plan better than the difference between the basically five and six. What's the distance? So that's at least 40 feet to 40 or 50 feet. I don't think that was modified. The footprint for building 6 is pretty much fixed. So we're staying within the confines of what is entitled for that footprint. So in building five is also sitting on the pad that's currently entitled so the distance has not changed but you'll let you know what that is. I think it's about 40 feet at the narrow side and 50 feet at the wide side which is towards village way. Okay, right. Okay. Thank you, Becky. Are there questions for me? I'll be here. What are you talking about flow into the village? Yeah. So behind this wall, is that wall on the plaza level? That wall, the other side of it is the plaza. Yeah. That basically you're coming around this building and going up, you have to make a great change to get out into the plaza. So there are some aspects of that that will flow up as a walkway and the other part will be a wall. And the inside that wall is landscape stuff. This is where that shade was falling that I wasn't, that I was saying that, you know, isn't really part of the plaza or the deck. And where it's in between zone. So the cafe is 1200. That is correct. The building is about 9800 square feet. It's entirety 1200 of the 98 is for the cafe. And is that in sorry Craig is that including the decks or not? It does not include the decks. Do you know how many square feet the decks are? Probably another 1,500 or so combined, at least. Look at my colleague here, see if he knows. Look at my colleague here to see if he knows. Yeah, I want to say the patio space for the cafes about 1200 square feet, so it's probably a bit more than 1500. Because that's not included in the overall square footages we know about. Right. How previously, yeah. And what was that programming for the second floor deck? So the programming and Tom and John could get a bit more to kind of the flexibility of the space, but it was it was thought that You can rent this space out such as the walking Mountain Children's Museum in the Thales just feeling the exact thing, but I think it's walking mountain where they rent that facility out for different events at night to help subsidize the overall operations of the facility. It would be the same thing here. You can have college parties. You can have certain types of events that would flow out into onto that specific deck area over here. Whoops. Or or flow out into the plaza itself. Is there space allotted in your internal layout of the building harry for a kitchen or any kind of facility that could serve these events that would go out on the deck? I would imagine they would be done by their space, but we would imagine doing a whole kitchen and the mechanical equipment and so on as well as the whole other production and the infrastructure required to do that. It doesn't, to me, make sense what you would do is have a very good, convenient way to cater things. And you know, that's kind of what we were talking about in terms of the proximity of this building to food and beverage offerings. You have the limelight, which is going to have food and beverage. Right. Great connectivity between those two buildings to provide food and beverage for different types of events. You also have the other restaurants, based village, who could also provide food and beverage offering for this facility. the other restaurants, based village, you could also provide food and beverage offering for this facility. When the vice-royd caterers for the conference centers, all right? That is correct. They do manage that facility for the association. So then the question would be, and I guess this is a cardamom question. This would be a nonprofit space. So nonprofits would be those who could rent the space or could anyone rent the space? Well, I don't want to speak on behalf of SMS discovery as what we've discussed, this would be a space open to anyone. I mean, anyone that is willing to rent the space and pay money to that organization, it helps to offset the subsidies or reduce the subsidies associated with office. Let me back up a second because this kind of goes to, and maybe I'm getting off the subject, but this sort of opens up a number of questions for me that need a little clarification. Number one is who's going to own this building when it's completed? So as noted in the application, we would convey the core and shell of this building to the town. Okay. The town would then have to select the nonprofit to be the occupant for this building. Okay. We believe some as a discovery could be a great occupant, but at the end of the day it's a town decision to decide who shall occupy these things. And then it would, and as the owner of this building, would the town then be responsible for the metro fees and the other fees that relate to this building? Yes, they would. So there are fees paid to various associations for various services provided such as parking. There would be an allocation for the number of parking spaces associated with this specific building. Also you're tying into the central plant so you do have to pay for the energy use consumed by this building taken from that central plant and that would be in the form of a assessment. Do we have those numbers? Carbage. We don't have specific numbers for this building, but that's something that we can't provide. Could we have them by next week? Of course. Okay. Yeah, those are going to be very important to our conversation. Okay. And it's how all those assessments work and all that stuff. Right. And for things such as energy consumption off of the central plan, it's an estimate based on a first-where-foot calculation. We'll try to provide what is inaccurate or exact and what's estimated. Yeah. For the town, we need to know what our financial liability might be if we take ownership of this building. Of course. So if there's no other questions for Harry, I would like to invite Snowmass Discovery. They have a presentation to give to you. I think that it's Tom Cardimone and John Rigny that we'll be providing this. We do have Ian Miller who is going to try to join by Skype to present with them. Do we have any questions from the public for Harry? Yeah, come on up. Say your name. Harry, don't move away. I will go. My name is Tony Cohnberg. The Discovery Center looks great. The way it's proposed right now. And I would just like to back up Marky Butler's comment about opening up the top floor, maybe not adding a third floor, but making the top floor a rooftop. Because the woolly mammals, they lived underneath the open sky. And a lot of your guests that come up to snowmast, the very first thing they say is, look at that skyline. Look how beautiful that is, both at night and during the day. And I believe that with your creativity, sir, that you could maybe perhaps make that into an observatory with telescopes so that people would want to go there at the nighttime to take a look at your nightline. But that's all I have to say about that. Thank you. Thank you. OK, Tom Tom John. You know what? I think there might have been somebody else. Is there anybody else that had their hands up? If not kind of walk up here because I can't see everybody. Yep. Yep. Come on up. Hey, John. John McBride, and I was there when Harry was there, working with Fritz Benedict, putting together the original mall at Snowmass, which was really back almost 50 years ago, a pretty exciting place. Of course, there was no place else to go. But there was a couple of ski shops, there was an ice ring, there was the Apigon Theater, the leather jug night club, it was a fun place and it sort of had a heart and a soul. It's saddened me through the years that there is really no there there anymore because nomass has grown in so many different directions from two creeks to the club to, you know, base village to where we are here. My feeling about what Tom is trying to do in Harry here is that this is an opportunity for all of you to bring back some spirit to the heart of snowmass, create a new heart. I think it needs it because it's spread all over the place. And I think this is an opportunity for you to bring this core catalyst to the center. I think it's very exciting. And I would hope that it was a permanent fixture to bring new life to snowmass. Thanks. So good to Snowmass. Thanks. So good to see you. Welcome. Are you going to stay around for the rest of it? The presentation with Tom Cardiman? Okay. Tom and John, are we ready? We are ready. Thank you very much for all the comments. Yes. All right. Thank you. Quick intro. My name is John Rignit. I've been with snowmess discovery from the beginning as chair of our board with me today is Tom Cartamone who is our executive director of the last few years. I saw in the back Mr. Bob Purvis who's been on our board for a number of years and watching from home as Dr. E. Miller from the Denver Museum of Nature and Science. Is he going to Skype in or do you know or that was my understanding. The Skype account has been logged out and I don't know Barb's. It's on the board. She said it was on the paper on laptop. You can keep talking. Yeah, the plan is he would join us toward the end here and then be involved. Fillivering some news on behalf of DMS and then sitting around and hopefully playing a role for the Q&A. So one, we're respectful of the choices that are in front of you and the many opportunities that exist, we're happy that we have a chance to state our case. All right. Okay. We want to wait till we get Ian on Skype here. I don't think we want them because I don't think we can have both him on and you and the presentation at the same time. He's watching. So he's with us. Go off and get popcorn. It will be with you as I say. So we'd like to have a pretty concise presentation. We're going to break it up into three quick categories. One will be location. The other will be programming. and the third would be finances some of these topics have already been broached by some of your questions already all make sense we want to have enough time for Q&A but obviously all of it this whole presentation you know ties together so on the front you see the replica of snowmastodon right outside the new Denver Museum building. Pretty darn impressive for those who've gotten down there to see it. Tom and I are gonna tag team this. Assuming I know how to work this. So here we go. So a couple weeks ago we got the opportunity to get in front of planning and we realized there's many, many vantage points on what should go where. So we're just going to stick to ours. And from our standpoint, base village is the place. I think Jim joked that I sounded like Johnny Cochran, was a base of the place, more like Jack Chowdiles from Seinfeld. But that was our position. Really, we've been dealing with several experts who were involved in museums all over the globe and they were adamant from the beginning before this proposal was even out there that the base would be the most logical place. And then when this proposal came forth and we shared with them, not only this, but alternatives that have been discussed, they came back to the center and kept saying, it's gotta be in the base. We worked with our board, we did get a presentation from another group that's looking at this multi-use multipurpose facility in a different venue, and the board unanimously agreed that base village was where. All of this is probably common sense why we want to be there. It's the central core. There's parking, mountain access and egress, high volume of pedestrians. The goal is fostering exploration. We want people to be able to come back. I understand that that would be a concern with any museum. We want to contribute to the staying power in the base. But again, this is about a sustainable building being around and being successful for a number of years. You know, again, this is about being part of the vitality. I heard family centric, and that's always been long associated with SNOMS and SNOMS Village. I heard about point of differentiation. This would check that box too. You talk about that overarching umbrella approach of lifelong learning that is abundant throughout this Aspen SNOMS community. Check that box as well We want to we want to be a part of this We're going we feel like we're going to contribute to it and and it's a very engaging environment This is a draw unto itself. Yes, we're going to get visitation from people who are coming to ski mountain bike to listen to great music To hike and explore Stonest Village, but we are going to be a draw. Those bones were found here. Again that is not to be, I don't know, underappreciated. It's a big deal. These bones were found here. They're going to hopefully come to life here. And that's not just for our destination guests but our community. It's kind of, we'd be part of what we think is terming a positive feedback loop, almost reciprocal exposure. Right, a lot of what I do in my day job is promoting events of all shapes and sizes and disciplines so that we get people here to this resort and then they can look around and appreciate what's around them. And I think that a facility of this nature fits into that world as well, right? If they come solely for the pursuance of science, or to hear a lecture, or to tour the museum, they're going to be wowed just like all of us were and drawn to this area. And likewise, while we have some of the best return visitation rates of any resort out there, winter resort for that matter, we also churn through significant percentages of trial every year. So I think that we would be compelling programming in there. Let's see, our job is to kind of assuage your fears that this would be a one and done type facility, right? There's a lot of money and resources and a significant footprint being thrown potentially at celebrating this discovery. And we take that responsibility, that significant responsibility seriously. And I'm going to have Tom kind of talk a little bit more about why these combination factors is gonna lead to a successful adventure here. Thank you, John. And I'd start out by just emphasizing my personal commitment to this. It's such a great story. And as I travel around the country to other museums and talk to other people that are in this business, this is a known quantity amongst scientists and museum people all over the country. And they're excited about it. And sometimes you have to go a little bit away from your home to find out how great it is. And my sense is that, of course, Snowmass has a story going on 50 years. It's a world-renowned family-oriented ski resort and snowboard resort and it's got a lot of vitality in summer from yoga to rodeo to jazz. You know what your story is and what the story of this place is and to add to that that deep, rich, compelling story that I'm particularly excited about telling and generating interest in and raising funds to pursue. The question about dynamic and relevant content keeps coming up, and so that's part of the reason for my visit to museums around the country to see what they're doing and how they're doing it. And I'm finding things like they have not just the scientists in the back and the visitors in the front, which is sort of standard of old school museums, but the scientists are in the front mixing it up with the visitors. They have professional actors on their staff. They have entertainers. They realize that museums are about not just education, but what's termed as edutainment. You have to draw people in. If your goal is to educate, you have to have something exciting going on. You have to be refreshing your program constantly, bringing in new exhibits, even creating exhibits and sending them out as the larger museums do. We would be most likely the recipient of those kinds of exhibits, not the creators at this early stage. If I could emphasize one thing today that you would retain, and that is that we, in my travels, in our connections that we have a tremendous resource available to us in the form of existing museums, the Never Museum of Nature and Science. One particular you'll hear from Ian later and they have made a significant decision to formalize a relationship with us and Ian will speak to that. I've also visited the Indianapolis, the Children's Museum, and Indianapolis. A big, popular, important, very successful operation. And I've spent two or three days there as a guest of Jack and Suzy Sogard visiting with Jeff Pachin, their CEO, and just brainstorming along about what could we do and how could it work and what would it look like and who are your connections and you know feed me more information so that we can do this well because we're a small startup nonprofit and we have so much to gain from those kinds of resources that are available and I can tell you and I think you'll hear from somebody from the museum a little later in the public comment today, that I'm so encouraged by the level of interest and excitement that Jeff and others at that museum have for what we could do here and a real willingness to pitch in and help. It's a community, if you will, of museums that I'm finding exist around the world that want other museums to be successful. And museum may not be the exact right word. It could be an ICEH experience center, ICEH's discovery center. If I fall back on museums, it's because so many of these long established places are regarded as museums. The key collaborators, I mentioned Denver Museum, the Smithsonian Institution, Kirk Johnson, of course is there now and he's solidly on our team, really interested in what's going on here and in a great position to be helpful to us. The Field Museum, John McCartor's former shop, he's now the chairman of the Board of Regents at this Smithsonian. Again, a strong, interested team player with us, who we stay in touch with frequently. And he's very, very interested in being helpful. I mentioned the Indianapolis Children's Museum. I would also add Amaze Design. And you've met Andy Annway. He brings a wealth of expertise to us all the way from planning and design to construction to actually creating the exhibits that go in the museum. So he's got the soup to nuts spectrum in his hands. And he's our guy, as far as a consultant goes. And I also mentioned the Isaacson School for Namedia,, Michael Conif and Rob Martin, the co-founders Rob is the director of that school. I've been talking to them for over a year now about how we not just convey the message and the story to the local community, but to the world. And Michael's wonderful comment to me was, you know, it's like Willie Sutton's comment, that's where the people are. They're in social media. And if you want to communicate with the world, you have to use social media today. I get it now. I'm working on it. And we've got the expertise right down the road. They have a studio at CMC Aspen that they could deploy to our benefit. So we have these wonderful rich resources in the form of museums and expertise. We also have interest from philanthropists and funding sources that is waiting for the green light. And the green light will be the place and the picture of the facility that will, and some certainty about that so that we can pull the trigger and go with the fundraising that really is the next step for us. Let's look, and I just want to take you on a quick tour of a few of the places that I've mentioned. And so the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, of course, that's in a lot of ways is the sun around which our Earth, our planet revolves. It is key to our existence and they're very keen to see us succeed. The next is interior in the Denver Museum. They have this wonderful exhibit and I just wanted to give you a little flavor. I don't want to try to design the interior of this space that Harry has just shown us. That's going to take a lot of time and expertise to bring the bear on creating the best we can. But just a few examples of things I've seen that are wonderfully engaging and very popular exhibits. This is science on a sphere. If you remember the first time some of us saw the Earth from the moon. I know most of us weren't there, but we saw the pictures. And it was world changing for us to have a sense of where we lived. Science on a sphere allows us to basically use NOAA's 400-plus data sets and ask our home questions and about how its health is, the physics of it, the chemistry of it, the biology of our living planet. And in this case, they're looking at ocean currents and their temperatures around the world. They can watch storms being spawned and working their way across the world. Anything you want to ask your home, you can ask this on an iPad. Kids can do this. Adults maybe struggle a little more than the kids to do it, but it's a highly interactive, very engaging display. Next, let me just thank you. This is the Indianapolis Children's Museum. It is a repurposed IMAX theater. To me, it's an example of an organization that's willing to take a risk to succeed. There were two IMAXs in Indianapolis that neither of them were succeeding well in the Children's Museum sat down and said, what are we going to do that's going to work better? Let's move on and do something good. And these are full- size dinosaurs seemingly breaking out of the inside. And around the other side of the museum, all these same animals are climbing back in a window. And it's just automobiles stopping, show stopping kind of a display. And it sets that place apart. Inside this IMAX theater, you're in a vaulted ceiling. They've got the world's largest collection of you would guess in a children's museum, the largest collection of juvenile dinosaurs. And the vaulted sky is storms moving over in teradocca, dachsholes flying by and thunder and lightning. It's just this highly active place. The light is muted and it's totally focused on not just kids, but kids with their parents, the grandparents, their uncles, whoever, whatever adult they're with. And it's just wonderful the way they've thought so deeply about how to make this successful and a draw for families over and over again. We could go. This is a spot I visited more recently in the Northern at a roundaxe. It is called the Wild Center. I actually met the director here and took a monitor of Ziegler in May and learned about this place and went to visit. It is somewhat different from what we would be thinking but it is in a, it provides a model framework for what is successful. It is a zoo, it is a science center, it is an attraction, it's real, pure edutainment, and it really works. They attract just in the summer, which is their primary season, attract just in the summer, which is their primary season, or primarily in the summer. They attract nearly 100,000 visitors year after year and they've been up and running for 10 years now, enjoying good success. They've got pretty high entry fee in the 20s, actually. And people keep coming back. They, inside there's an active glacier. It's not a real glacier, but it's active and glowing and rumbling and cold of the touch. And they tell a strong story about the glacial history of the outer right-hacks. We go to the next. And this is an outdoor experience. And it gets you into the tree tops. There's an eagle nest above the tree tops that you can climb up into a spider web that kids can play in. That's gigantic with a gigantic spider looming over it. I'm not suggesting we do these things. I'm just in a copy of this, but these kinds of interactive, educational, entertaining, active installations are very popular and onto the Norwegian Glacier Museum, another example of a place that not an exact, by any stretch, an exact comparison, but the cruise ships were going by a little fishing town in Norway and in the little fishing town people got together and said let's figure out how to stop those cruise ships and get them to to visit us and give our economy a boost. They built a Pritzker prize-winning building that every cruise ship stops. The museum fills up and then in the the corollaryary to what a facility here in Snowmass might provide us is that then the visitors go on to visit a real glacier and they walk through the river carved under glacier tunnels to get a real experience of ice on the move, either retreating or advancing. Here in Snowmass I see us, you know, the facility is, got to be vital in and of itself, but it's a portal to the mountain, which is, we just need to remind us all, we can't forget, that's a wonderful resource. And we've got access to the mountain, we've got all the plant communities that existed in the ice age, that we can access. And so that's a great example here. got all the plant communities that existed in the Ice Age that we can access. And so that's a great example here. My segue to back to John Rigny, he was just recently in Norway and visited the Nobel Peace Prize Museum and was totally transfixed by an artistic, active, compelling display of wonderful people who have, some cases risked their lives to do things to make the world a better place and it captured his interest. And I would actually use this also to make one comment and my comments right now. And that is that we will send you all links to a half a dozen or a dozen, probably a half a dozen installations including this so that you can go online and take a look and see how they operate and get a better feel for that. So we'll send those to you after the meeting and I am at this point going to turn the mic back to John for the numbers. Tom, I've been so proud to see the slow and maturation of me and I wasn't reporting back from baseball stadiums and kids activities. I actually got to see half dozen museums this summer. So kind of getting to the numbers, I'll put three caveats out there from the beginning. One, these are preliminary numbers that were put forth by our partners at AMAZ design and Algonquin partners. Unfortunately, they're not with us, but any kind of further dialogue we would welcome and we need to put the right people in the room to have that. Secondly, I'd put out that we asked a lot of questions of Craig and his team as this is, you know, this is new to us as well and some of those questions came up earlier today. But what we wanted to be able to do is represent what we think is, albeit there's a significant head start here, if snowmess discovery is chosen to be a tenant in this building six. Corn shell is worth a lot. I've heard the number of three and a half million dollars thrown out there. But there's still a large hill to climb. Based on estimates that our consultants have given us, the thought is that it would take an additional, roughly $8.2 million to build out and endow this facility. It's a preliminary endowment, estimate of $2.5 million, and then the next page gets into a little bit more of the annual operating, pro forma. Again, it's based now on an 8500 square foot facility, which give or take sounds like what we're looking with. Some of the assumptions that we would be charging for admission. Suffice it to say there's definitely been debate about whether that's the route to go or not. But given the fact that this not charging admission would have a pretty significant impact on our proposed endowment, we decided to stick with the initial presentation from Anway on $9 for an adult, $6 for child. We ballpark estimate 35,000 people attending annually. I think I've heard somewhere on the magnitude of 45,000 people are going through the Discovery Center up on the mall. So we use the number 35. There's a more detailed sheet that we will share with all of you via Clint and staff, but we kind of tried to group the revenues and the expenses to show you what this looks like over a five-year period. A lot goes into both the revenue. It was touched on earlier about special events and income that could be generated from that. Obviously, there would be a catering element there. There's a retail component here, not significant, but it's in there. And this is kind of where we landed. You know, minimal profit as long as we're contributing from endowment. We got some work to do. We'd have to raise $100,000 in grants every year to keep this. On point, fundraising just in general, $100,000 a year right there. But given what we know now, this is initial framework for the dollars and cents. Now moving forward, I I said at the beginning, one is tied to the other. At the end of the day, for us to go out and effectively fundraise, we need to know where are we going to be, what will we be surrounded by? How big is it? Who's supporting it? On and on and on. So our hope is that if you believe that's an on-mast discovery is a logical, a theological tenant for this building that we would get a letter of intent going with the town and it's an on-mast discovery. And I think really what we've got to do so that you feel comfortable that you're placing this bet if you will, that we're going to succeed is we'll put something out there that says we're going to agree to raise X percent of these dollars that have been put forth after they've been scrubbed a few more times by Z-date. And if that were the case, then we're able to go forward. At that point, if we have a general agreement that that's the direction we're gonna go, we would hire a developer, tell development director, we'd initiate that funding feasibility study that we've been in front of you discussing in the past. We would let all our partners that Tom articulated earlier know that we are out there. This is a defined timeline. Here's the vision. You know, and it's really going to take more than just us doing this in our own valley. We're going to need to go above and beyond. And then we begin these campaigns. Tom, I'm going to kind of give it to you for a couple more comments and then we're going to bring Ian in and then open up for further Q&A. Yeah, and I guess if we could be queuing up Ian, I will just read a quote from Andy Annway and that'll give us a moment to get him in front of us. And just to, to heart back to Andy's good work with us and our continuing communication with him and his enthusiasm to continue to work with us, just recently when he got the Harry T.G. drawings and looked at the numbers, which he's done even more recently and helped us refine and update the numbers and get them appropriate to an 8500 square foot space. His response to all of this was I was pleasantly surprised to see the current plans. You've made tremendous progress. Such strong architecture leads prominence to snowmass discovery and adds real value to base village and the guest experience. This plan creates a two destination location with an explicit identity focused on your unique asset, the fossil discovery. And there, I see him here. Well, yeah. We'll have to do anybody know sign language. Right. I can turn off the volume. I hear them. You can hear us. Wait, just a minute. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'm going to go to the bathroom. And it doesn't hear us. I'm sorry. So, no, no, no, no. It's great. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to translate well these things he's talking to us. The meeting I had last Friday with George and the work president and their development director. You got to use the microphone. So Ian subscribing. If we can't get the volume, we ought to turn it off because it's distracting. Let him know where. He's not, he doesn't seem to be able to hear us. Can we text him? I can do that. Okay. Okay. What he's describing, in my apologies, he's describing the formalized relationship that I've just gotten and I'll put it in the record today. George Sparks communicating to us that they have agreed to be a formal scientific partner of snowmatch discovery. And what that means is that they will provide all of the kind of backup support that I was talking about earlier in terms of their vast resources, technological and related to displays and programming and operations and the care and maintenance of the building. And then a few specific things that they are offering us in this letter as well are just underscoring things that we've already had on our radar, I believe, is that they will, the bones will return to snowmass and we need to have a facility that's adequately secure and climate controlled to contain those bones. So those are their parameters. They are supplying us with a fully mounted, the largest mastodon ever discovered in the world that's coming to Snowmass as a gift from the Denver Museum of Nature and Science. They will continue to provide us with what they call and actually step this up as we get certainty about place and picture of place with what they call fundraising or rather friend raising connections to their network of funders and connections to the museum so that we are seen as a legitimate scientific partner and connected to their sources of funding and helped along tremendously. The credibility and the networking that come with that offer is huge. Is that a joint venture or is that informal partnership? It is a formal scientific partnership in there. Why does that really mean? Does that mean that money follows? Their resources will be part of it, and their assistance in seeking their resources. To the extent that providing us with that kind of help cost them money, but the answer may be yes, but they're not planning to support us. There's not a contributor. Contributor or a matching grant coming in to the museum. No, not at this point, but all of the other things that I mentioned are part of that deal. That's very significant to me and I think should be to all of us. And you mentioned Smithsonian Field, Indy, the Isaacson School. Is there a financial exchange? Or is there any dollars on the table from these organizations other than a collaborator? At this point, I think it's most accurate to see that they're ready to step up and collaborate with us. The next question really comes with certainty about location and facility. But no, at this point in time, in terms of your conversations, we don't see any liquidity coming from those potential collaborators. Correct. Okay. Okay, thank you. Tom, I just have a question for you. Going back to January, you came and spoke to us, asked us for money. You spoke to us about the campaign consultant, right? Feasibility consultant. And you were going to have that person in place this year. We're in September. Tell me what you've done to find this person or set this set up to prepare for your feasibility study. We identified about five firms. We narrowed that down to three. We have internally made a selection of one of the three who and I Maintained communication with that firm. There are other funds that are pledged but are not forthcoming until again, there's more certainty About the place and the facility and so and I've communicated with Clint and others in the town staff about this that we are essentially unhold waiting for that level of certainty before the other funds that have been pledged privately will be released to allow us to proceed. So we're ready. I'm a little confused. A capital campaign feasibility study is very different than a capital campaign. A capital campaign feasibility study is more about how much could be raised within a community and is there credibility within the nonprofit to meet whatever market is. So let's say you've determined that you need 13 million, 15 million. Whatever the magic number is. So now you go out and test that hypothesis with X number of interviewees in terms of credibility and is a valid case. Location has nothing to do with that study. It's credibility and the programming. Then if that comes back positive, now you know what the pony is that you gotta raise, what's credible within the marketplace, and now you gotta bogey, you know, it's 14 million, 20 million, and now you launch the Capitalgey, you know, it's 14 million, 20 million, and now you've launched the Capital Campaign Feasibility Study. What I hear you saying that the Campaign Feasibility Study has not been started. Let's say you choose to do that study, which takes probably six months to get done. Then you move into Capital Campaign. What's your thought in terms of beginning and end given the fact we haven't even done a capital campaign feasibility study? How soon would you raise? What's the number you're looking at and two is how quickly can it be raised? Well, we're looking at 8.2. We find numbers 8.2 million. And I would, the advice and direction we're getting from our advisors from Andy Annway to Mike Devine, who I just spoke with last week, who's produced the numbers that we're looking at right now, to the feasibility people is that you're much better off if you have certainty about location and place and actually just doing the feasibility part of it. And so there has been some question about shared facilities and you know that discussion has been going on and our prime choice for doing the feasibility study has said that's that is will that would be a completely different kettle of fish I can't do a feasibility study for you based on a single facility in a unique location when you might be talking about something completely different so that that part of the discussion put us off and then again half of our funding for this study is contingent on more certainty about place and picture. So how long do you anticipate it taking to raise the 8.2. You know, I don't know that we can ask that right off the bat. I think, you know, what we, what Tom was just You're asking us to make, you're asking us to make a commitment to you guys and you are really not willing to make a commitment back to us. I don't think I would frame it that way. Well, tell me, you expressed an interest in a letter of intent that would provide you with the confidence to go out and try to raise money. If you are unsuccessful raising money and we move down this road, what's your guarantee to us? What can you do back to the town? Because the town is going to be sitting there with a building. What can snow miss discovery do to provide the town with some security? After all, we look to the developer, we're looking to the applicant for security. We're having discussion between our staff and the applicant over financial security for this whole PUD. So what can some as to discovery do for the town to provide some kind of security? Well, I think we've mentioned earlier in the presentation that we're willing to agree to milestones. And so for discussion purposes, let's say that it's half the amount that we've identified raised in the next 15 months, which is prior to, as I understand, at any construction that could conceivably take place. Well, start in April is the goal to start construction for race village. For building six specific no, I'm not talking specifically six, but in terms of when that was when we get going We've got to be right pretty darn secure. Yeah I only comment is you are correct. We are planning on hoping to start by the spring Building six is a smaller building it probably will lag in terms of actually getting started By a year it's anticipated to be delivered in 2017 late 2017. That's still up for negotiations. Everything's up. Everything's up for negotiation. I see I hand up in the back of the room. Jack, did you want to come up or did you? Any other? Yeah, why don't you come? Well, Jack's coming up. I would just underscore that I recognize we're asking you to make a commitment and we're willing to make a strong commitment and the details of that are going to require some discussion. But it's got to be a two-way commitment, completely understood, completely reasonable. Yeah, Mr. Purvis. I think that Tom got it two thirds right, because I think it's a three-weight commitment. I think you just stood up and said, well, it has something to do with us on our construction planning. You want to make sure you don't get left holding the bag. These folks don't have anything to give you a financial pledge against. So before you accept ownership of building six, you need to know that it is going to go forward in the manner that you have anticipated. Be that snowman's discovery or be that something else. Okay? So I think it's a three-way discussion that takes place between related the developer, town, the potential future owner, and the pleader of, I'll call it, tenancy. And it seems to me that that discussion has to take place with a feeling of mutual positive interest. And I don't sense all three parties are now in a sense of mutual positive entrance and I think that's a little bit of work we need to test to see if we can get there because one of the things that Andy Amway said in his original work well that a key element out of four I won't bore you well all four was that there had to be community and town support for this notion. And at the moment, I don't think we've landed the depth of that support and interest and appreciation of each other in this room that would meet Andy's test of key four elements on that matter. I would agree with you, Bob. Thank you. So I would agree with you, Bob. Thank you. So I would encourage us all to work at that and see how none of us, Bob, are exposed to or we expose our town to undue risk. I would say the enthusiasm of John and Tom and the rest of the board members that I've worked with, and I'm the rookie I joined a couple of years ago. John's been here since Task Force One. So, Ezra and Debassel and others. So, I would say there's, you know, I think there's the fundamentals there for the kind of mutuality that we need, but somehow we haven't quite got there. Jack? Hello, I'm Jack Kennedy, a resident of Somas Village. You've got your hands full. And I'm here just to read a statement that I'd like to be included in the record. Then your hands will be even more full. As an alternative to the town accepting building six as a space to accommodate a discovery center. We would strongly recommend that the town accept an appropriate sum of cash as an alternative to the building six proposal with the knowledge that there are other options for a discovery center location including the point site. Which conceptually would also be able to include a multi-purpose performing arts facility, a science center, and our other cultural programs. This location along with the town hall offers the possibility of becoming the core of a civic cultural campus. And with the addition of a pedestrian bridge connection to the base village, it would be very accessible to the commercial and residential core in base village with just a two minute walk while maintaining its own identity and sense of place. There is also the potential for a very positive synergy with the Discovery Center, Performance Vignet, Science Center, etc., which can result in efficiencies in attracting contributory funding, staffing, programs, parking and facilities, and a greater critical mass of cultural, educational, and intellectual activities. Thank you for accepting our written comments and please keep in mind to offer to present a comprehensive concept as to how the point site might be used to accommodate the Discovery Center as well as the other aforementioned programs. Thank you for listening. Thank you, Jack. I'm sorry. It's just from you, Jack, or is there a committee behind this? I'm just putting it in notes. It's just you, is it citizen? You keep from citizens that have thought for this. Okay, thank you. Thank you you Jack. Okay we are in a tough place know. I'll start. I have two thoughts. One thought going back to what we were just discussing before Bob, well, sort of in relationship to Bob and before Jack. Tom, you know, you threw out an idea about having milestones, okay, for this. So incorporating Bob's thoughts and suggestions, I would ask my fellow council people, if we are comfortable directing our staff, snowmess discovery, and the applicant to sit down and try to work out something, whether it's milestones or something else, but something that might provide some level of comfort for some of us and perhaps provide an escape route for the town if in fact snowmiss discovery can't raise what they hope to raise. So that's one thought. It's a great thought. Just hold it right there. I wasn't saying anything. No, no. I'm not saying anything either. I wasn't saying anything. No, no. I'm not saying anything either. I'm doing. I'm doing with that. Well, I think there's several things. One of which is the lack of confidence right now in the ability. We don't know what the bogus is. We don't know what the path is to get there, it's extremely difficult for the town to consider any commitment for me at this time without that level confidence. If I knew that a fundraising consultant had said it's for darn sure the Discovery Center can raise $10 million. I would feel a lot more confidence is strapping this town in terms of some type of engagement. Now I will share with you. I love the building. I think Harry has gone over the top. It's perfect. It's absolutely perfect. Harry Kudos to you. But what we're being asked for this evening is that confidence factor of Discovery Center. I think the notion of milestones would be very helpful. There's a lot more work's gotta be done in these performance because there's no consideration for startup cash and first-year performance and you don't make you don't make any money in the first year. Oops I should be talking to you not you. So I think this is very I think the performance are understated and over optimistic. The other thing observation is, and this is a concern that I've heard from within the community, and it may not be a concern of mine, but it's a concern within the community. If I have a family of five, two adults, and three children. And there is an admission fee, 18 and 36, 40 books, whatever the number is. I don't think I would go back through that discovery center more than once while I'm here. I think it's a one-time shot. The comparison to how many go through the Discovery Center now, what's free? We've never tested an emission fee on our potential people that go through. So I think that's a huge assumption in terms of that. In terms of grants, $100,000, I don't know the source of grants. To my knowledge, I don't think we've received any grants in the history yet of snowmast discoveries and nonprofit. I may be wrong in that. This is a performer for a capital campaign. And for our operations. Have we gone for any grants? And operations going forward. Have we gone for any grants and operations going forward have we gone for any grants at this point we have and have you been successful are they foundation grants and what's the usual magnitude of those grants five figures okay we probably need to see how successful the brand strategy has been because brands are very hard to come by The other issue I'm hearing in our town It gets into what are the operating hours and are we gonna be looking at a dark building at eight o'clock at night? And on weekends because if we're talking vitality, how we're going to achieve vitality in the evening when we want vitality that starts earlier in the day and goes until later in the evening. You've talked about changing out exhibits, well how often what type and what are I think the cost it's great that if Denver Science Museum is willing to provide us with exhibits I'm going to assume those are at no cost. They're you know these are detailed questions that I can't answer. Then you said earlier to bring vitality, you needed entertainers or what have you to bring the story to life. Is that in the pro forma in terms of operating costs, the detail behind the operating cost? There is staff staffing of all levels and my experience at both Denver and Indianapolis is that they have trained actors professional actors on their staffs and they bring the place to life and it's wonderful. So it's a paid staff so that host staffing level the whole notion behind operating experience expenses are extremely important. Let alone the taxes, the metro taxes, which we haven't, we don't know yet. We don't know what those are. None of us know that yet. So in terms of performance development, we had a long way to go. We do have operating expenses, maintenance and repair that would and utilities, the things that you might be concerned about, the city, the town bearing are in our performance for operations. So those are the details. If you go back to the milestones, there's a lot of discussion that needs to happen. I think that's more of the point is to discuss. A lot more discussion in order to accept this as a community purpose and then we have the other notion that came forth and it's very important in terms of transparency that we've heard about and Jack brought it up there's another potential that might be under consideration so that gets into the cash in lieu of I know the community we need to make a decision if the milestones can be achieved as there's credibility in the Discovery Center what's the programming what's the vitality what are what's behind here because as a town I don't want to put this town at risk underwriting something that is not really going to work. Five years, ten years from now. But that's me speaking. I'll let you guys. So that's back to your milestones. When we sent related back to sketch plan, there was some talk about the point site was the right place and we weren't really sure what you guys were gonna come back with. Quite frankly I'm really enthused and impressed with what you guys came back with. I mean to have an events plaza an ice skating rink a discovery center a fountain I mean these are things that we think are really important to the vitality of the base village. I think that, and maybe I'm just speaking for me, I think that the discovery center in the base village is the right place for it. I don't think we need to get distracted by putting it on the point site, or even you know going too far down that road. I think we really need to commit to this, get the community behind it, and the town should be an active participant in it. We need to lead the charge, because once we do that, that will be get more money. I mean, we have not only local funding. I mean, there is a lot of money in this town but there's a lot of money in the science community and some of those references that Tom was just talking about are serious commitments to the science community and what we can learn from this this find not only just the bones but the climate change science that we can learn from it is gonna be phenomenal. I think we need to, as a whole, get behind this. And once we do that, there'll be more money that follows it. You know, if we want to start talking about community purposes and, you know, do we need a performance center? I mean, there's, I haven't seen anything yet that says that we need a performance center. I haven't seen anything yet that says that we need a performance center. If that's something that we really need, we should look at places to do. Personally, I think the bus barn at the mall is a perfect place for a performance center. We can build a new bus barn. That would be a great place for a performance center. I think the base village is the right place for a discovery center. I think the base village is the right place for a discovery center. I think this is the right time. I think having a guy like Harry designed the building provides us with an amazing opportunity to bring people to this town and offer something that's not available anywhere else, not just in the ski industry, but this is a high altitude ice age discovery that's unique in the world. I'm fully supporting this find and I think that the public purposes that you are proposing, the applicants proposing are the right fit for base village and I'm anxious to move this forward. I have a question for you. Are you willing for the town to take a high degree or risk? Or do you want to wait till we see what we don't know? I think we need to lead the charge. I think we should be in a position to take some risk. And I think that, you know, maybe we need to have some milestones. I think we can work out the details, but I believe in this find and I think there's gonna be money and funding behind it. I'll tell you where my, you know, I like the building, I like the notion, all the above. It's that whole issue of not knowing what you don't know, the confidence factor, because if we strap the town, that means the taxpayers are going to wind up bearing the burden through a special assessment of some type. And the town, I'm going to make, I don't think our town has that kind of money to support the operations unless I'm looking over at our town manager to say. I mean, I mean, here's my patent answer for any kind of budget question. It's a matter of philosophy, it's a matter of principles, and it's a matter of prioritization. And when the council says it's a priority we make things happen. We can do that. I mean you can't do everything. You've got to prioritize what those issues are and then we put them towards that. You guys did that with your seven goals earlier in spring. This was one of the things that you said you wanted to deeply examine. You can't remember the exact words. This is the chance to examine that. And if it is a priority, we might do less than a to do more of b, but we can make those things happen. I mean, as a rough number, just to throw out your metamare, roughly speaking, we put about $40,000 a year. Well, we're closer to $80,000 a year to operating the ice age discovery right now, which is on the wall. About 40,000 of that would have to happen no matter what. And so if we stopped that, we would have another 40,000, we could put towards this type of endeavor today. – Operations. – Today. I mean, a bit of if we came back and said, hey, we want to put more towards that, I mean, we could understand and how we could understand the prioritization to make things happen. And when did the answer to, yes, sort of maybe no. Yeah. And I hear what Billy is saying, and I really appreciate that. Also, to see what Bob is saying in terms of risk. It's on that folkroom. And I will tell you, my risk tolerance. Well, I just need some confidence. And if risk is the biggest concern, if it's something you want to have, I mean, that's in direction we can get, we can work with the applicant to say, what are our biggest risks ongoing cams, ongoing operation expenses, those types of things. If you ended up with the building, I mean, I do it from the top of my head, but if you ended up with the building at the end of this, and for some reason, snowmast discovery wasn't able to get it up the ground, you could have an asset. We could potentially protect and wait to flip the asset at the end, to offset any operating costs. So then your risk is a sunk cost or something along those lines. I mean, what we really need to get from you guys is the feeling of, is this the right community purpose? That's really the political decision that's before. Is this really offsetting those needs, the heights, the mass, all those kind of bearings that are being asked for? Once we kind of understand what you're aiming for, then it's our job to hopefully offset those risks with the greatest degree possible and make sure that we're in a secure position as possible. Well, I'll just say, I'm just going to throw out something that if the building six is becomes unacceptable Community purpose it in my opinion does not cover the Community purpose requirement for the changes made in this amendment that there needs to be additional community purposes for myself to cover those amendments cover those changes I'm sorry so if that makes you some what's clear I mean that answers that question but but we're still, and if you're taking, you know, Councilman Madsen's kind of point of, hey, let's lead this, and then the mayor's point of, let's redo some risk. I mean, again, just doing, trying to put some of your thoughts together, instead of accepting a shell, maybe what the kind of the community purpose is a far more complete building. Well, I, my name is commission called for architectural programming. You go to a higher level of architectural programming and figure out what those actual costs are and have some of those initial investments be part of the building investment. Those are things that I think that we create discussions for you to help us understand what you're aiming for. I, well, I guess we haven't really finished up the conversation about, uh, about getting the parties together. Yeah. Melissa, any credits for me? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Everybody get ready. I'm just kidding. Um, first of all, I just want to say, you know, I threw out a lot of ideas because I truly believe that the base has to be family friendly. And I feel like related the developer, the applicant, whatever, did a great job of coming back and giving that to us because I can see it. I can feel it. I can see the people moving. It's exciting. It's fun, it's everything that doesn't exist right now. So given that I go with Bill on this about the Discovery Center. When we sat in our meeting all those months ago and we said that it was an iconic treasure of this town and we placed it this high on our list. and iconic treasure of this town, and we placed it this high on our list. I understand the fundraising aspects I've done a lot of development work in my past life, but I think that you have to separate it out, because it is that important, and I think that you have to take some risk. I mean, this is a startup just like anything else, but if it's that important to us, we have a duty to make it happen. We have an obligation to the town, to the animals that were here that long ago, to make it happen. You know, I think about when the third graders at Aspen Elementary go down to the Denver Science Center and have their overnight there, How cool would that be? The front-range kids can come here to our town, have an overnight potentially at that museum. That is exciting. And I just think there's so many possibilities. Yes, there's a lot of stuff that's unknown, but the whole base village is unknown. I mean, you know, it's like if you build a retail, the people will be there. I mean, nobody knows any of this. Nobody knows what's going to happen. But I think that we feel like if it's that important to us that we have to be willing to take some risk. If you look at the dig and how excited people got about the dig and how people came from all over to participate in the dig, and that was just the dig. I think that it's the same, it's the same type of feeling. Now the question of where to put it. I mean already we have this try nodal and possibility in this town. And I think I'd have never seen any plans about the point say I don't know what it looks like, but it's just another added element that I feel like another place that people need to shuttle, whether they have to cross a pedestrian bridge or not. I mean people in the base village don't want to take the bus down to the rec center to go swimming. So I just feel like the more you make people move, whether it's five steps or a bus ride, people don't want to move. They want to walk out their door and they want to see what they can see. I think that you're concerned, Markey, about it being dark at night. I think you have to think about the events. They can rent it out to people. They can have private events. If they have some kind of dark theater or earn there, they can have some sort of nighttime things. It doesn't have to be every night, but let's say two or three nights a week, you're having nighttime activities there. I mean, I think one thing I want to know, and this is what I threw out about the science center, and I was the one that suggested that you talk to the science center, is that you talk about these relationships with all these other museums. Well, what about the local relationships? What about ACEs? What about the Aspen Science Center? How does that work? How does that feed into this building? Is this building big enough in accommodating enough to deal with them if they want to come in and have some kind of exhibit whether it be temporary or permanent? I think those are important, but I think that the plaza you have to look at it as a whole. Okay, so let's say it's a night where the Discovery Center is dark because there's nothing going on in there. You got the ice skating rate. You got the lights going across the plaza. It's not gonna look dark. I mean, I disagree, but that's okay. Okay, well, it's my opinion that I think if you have all these other things going on, performance space in the summer, that's a great performance space. It could be a nice, I mean, you talk about performance space. It doesn't mean there has to be some building on the point site where people go in and sit down in a theater. It could be an outside venue. I mean, that's why we live here to be outside in the summertime. So, those are just some of my points. I mean, I think, you know, there's also, you talked about the fees. I think one point to make is, you know, we went to the San Diego Zoo a couple years ago. And you could buy a daily admission ticket or you could buy a membership for just a little bit more. So maybe people are going to be willing to buy the membership that it's going to give them in mittens continuously throughout their stay or the next time that they come back. I mean, you have the people in the Vase Village, they may be here a couple times a year, have grandkids, they just buy a family membership or whatever it is. I think that there's ways to structure that. What else did I want to say? I think that was really it. I mean, I find it so exciting. I mean, I think I'm with Bill in this that it's just, it's really cool to see what Harry design and the passion and the excitement. I mean, I think that there's, we could pick up on that energy. Well, I can't agree with you, Alyssa, the point is, I like the building, I love the plaza, I love the vitality. It gets into the risk conversation, because we need more miles, we need to know what the milestones are gonna be. We need to know what the game plan is. And we really don't have a game plan. We have an idea and potential collaborators, but we don't know what those milestones are gonna be. I agree with that. I mean, I think what Bob's suggestion was that he throughout was a good suggestion. I mean, and I do think just like Bob Herva said before, I mean, it is a, there's a lot of people involved in this. And, you know, there does need to be a contingency plan. If you guys don't raise the money, what's going to happen? Is it going to turn into retail? Is it going to be whatever it's going to be? I mean, it's not going to, I feel like it can't sit empty. It won't sit empty. It would be bad for the entire base village. I feel like even the applicant would agree to that. And I think that we could work it out. I really, really do. But I think that you have to have the confidence and the people that are sitting at this table and the people that are really passionate about what's gonna happen with the Discovery Center. Because I think that it's a key to a lot of what happens in the base village. So, yes, Tom? Just, in as much as I, Alicia's comment is, in as much as I took Alicia's comment as having some embedded questions, I just set some quick responses. And yeah, we're all over the idea of committing to a solid game plan. We know we have to do that. And so we're totally on board with that. In 1988, when the School Finance Act made our school revenues plummet and the Denver Museum and the zoo and the arts, art museum and the fourth facility down there, the big four. They were all cut off by the legislature. The greater Denver area established the science and cultural taxing district, one tenth of one percent of sales tax. In a time when finances were hard, they realized that having solid, well-supported cultural amenities in the middle of downtown was critical. And they did it, and that tax raises tens of millions of dollars today that's distributed amongst those four entities and other entities as well. DMS is open every night, the lights are on every night, and oftentimes it's paying customers who are renting the space, a huge source of revenue, actually, for them, to the concern about the restaurant being connected, their restaurant and their gift shop is before you go through the ticket counter. So that works, there's ways to work these things out. Absolutely, in conversation, ongoing conversation with the Science Center, with ACEs, with the Forest Conservancy, with the local organizations that I think can all play a role in this, but I think of as a community building opportunity. Everybody can play a role because it's exciting, and it needs a lot of human involvement, volunteer and otherwise. The fees that are suggested in our performer are at the bottom of the scale of a half a dozen other entities, some of which I mentioned today, that goes highest 2150 for admission, but that highest one offers free admission to certain classes of citizens. So we don't feel like we're overreaching, but it's an important number and it produces important income. The alternative is to have a subsidy or something else we can look at that. And just in closing, I was here in Snowmass at a conference a few weeks ago and Tom Friedman sent something that really spoke to me. And spoke to my, as Clint was saying, sort of philosophy and approach into what I would think helped me be successful in the nonprofit world. And Tom's comment was pessimists are usually right. Worth listening to. Optimists are usually right. We're listening to optimists are usually wrong. Be attentive to that, but the real substantive change that happens in the world is often accomplished by optimists. And I think we're a band of optimists. Tom, your comments about collaborating with other local nonprofit organizations. I wasn't clear if you thought that that collaboration would include participation in the space. And if that were the case, do you feel there is enough space here? I'll give you one example. I had a meeting with Jackie Francis in the Board President, Michael a year ago. And we talked about when they were angling towards the old powerhouse in Aspen, we were in agreement with the notion, this is just a vignette. So it's not a complete answer to your question. But we were in agreement that wouldn't it be wonderful if they had a display in the corner of their facility if it was going to be an aspen that related to ice age science and wouldn't it be wonderful if we in this center had a corollary to that and that we cross-pollinated each other. I'm a strong believer in cross-pollination. And- Do you think there's enough space in what we're talking about for that type of thing to happen? I- Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, I mean, that's an easy yes answer, but, you know, we'd have to get down to particulars that that cross pollination offering space in in separate entities is very different from all living under the same roof which which could come with complications and and well I've had long conversations more recently with science-centered people and I understand part of what where the Science Center people and I understand part of what where they are right now and I just don't want to speak for them but yes to collaboration. Okay. And then the other question is, is your pro forma based on a year round operation or do you anticipate closing during the off-season? What's your concept of annual schedule? I think it's fair to say that it's an annual pro forma. And certainly, school groups would be ideal groups to have in the off-season. That's when it's the mud season, or it's early spring season or it's, you know, it's early spring or it's late fall and they're not able to get out and do other things. So appealing to community groups during that portion of the year, to be successful, you want to be, have your doors open and be busy all the time. OK, again, just a question, you know, because I would expect and I hope I'm wrong someday, but I would expect that most of base village would be dark, you know, in the off seasons or at least for a number of weeks after the mountain closes and, you know, before things start up again. So I just wasn't sure if that was where your thinking was or not. I think it will just try to circle back. It would seem to make sense that we need a lot more detail that would be accomplished through the three parties would come together to tease out the timeline. What are the milestones within that timeline? If a capital campaign study were to start an end, what the number is that you feel that can be raised. Then we would need to know what the town might have beyond the hook for from a liability perspective before we can talk about if the town can take that form of a risk because we don't know what that number is. In terms of a question, so it's kind of starting to make some suggestions as to most steps. In terms of the building design, I just think everybody loves what Harry has done. I don't think there's a question about the quality of the design, whether the town takes ownership of that building and says, oh, Discovery Center, this could be yours. Because we're not committing to the Discovery Center taking ownership, we would take the building. But within that, obviously, we're very interested in the Discovery Center being first and foremost in terms of our thoughts. So a lot more detail on programming all the commitments that have come forth. You made a statement just now about the Aspen Science Center. I thought in the Andy Amwellie proposal, the least amount of space was 7,500. How much is it? Or 4,600. Max was 75, wasn't it? Well, actually, it was, it ranged from 2750 to 7,500. Okay, so that was, that was his recommendation. So there might be space for other interested organizations who might want to do an exhibit. Is that what I hear you say? I think that's a discussion we need to have internally, but Andy has taken a look at the 8500 square feet and it's been purpose designed for a discovery center, but back to a very general answer, collaborating with other organizations and sharing the work, the good work of creating a true community asset necessitates, I think, involving the community. And exactly what that looks like. I think, you know, my sense is it shouldn't be multiple organizations living under one roof together. It should be collaborative. If you can understand that distinction. No, well, I understand it, but I don't understand the rationale behind it. OK. Well, is that a preference or is that? That that's my experience with ACEs where we collaborated with the schools and the Division of Wildlife and the Scheme Company and and the Forest Service. We didn't all own things together but we work together to and we all had our in our separate shops, but we work together and we Cross-pollinated constantly. So that's that's a model that I know works But I'm not saying there's a door that's closed to other models So we do have some directions out to staff and but I asked for other counsel people to comment But I go- With the planning commission's recommendation, and I don't have it right in front of me. I was. But it was basically take the building and take some extra cash with, and I think at least some of the premise was, to work towards a more financially secure proposition. And there's more, far more detail than that. But if that's, if you said, hey hey continue to try and negotiate towards this end we can certainly go on that I don't think we're in a position right now to say we'll take that as a community purpose and the town until we know more detail we take position I don't think we're to that point to make that decision. With that more detail behind it. I hear two say they like the building. We need more home. I need more home work. I would really like to see some collections between the three parties on timelines and milestones. And then I think my feeling is, since we don't know what that is going to end up looking like. And since we have been floating around another idea of what to do, well, forget about an idea. We have another option which is to take cash. Okay, that cash option is still out there. And that cash option may still be the best option until we get further down the road here. But what I would suggest, and I will again defer to my fellow council people, is that we take Jack Kennedy up on his offer to give us an idea of something, an option, a concept of what could be built if we choose not to take building six and if we choose to take the cash. So that's kind of what I have out want to lay out for the rest of you to use about and see if you see if you're comfortable going down continuing down two roads at the same time. I'm at the council's very here to moving forward perhaps take ownership take risk. Bob and I would like to see more detail amongst the three parties in terms of milestones and operating and what have you. And so part of it where you're at, and I'm going to let John chime in here with me and make sure I don't say anything absolutely wrong and Julianne will protect me from being absolutely wrong as well. But where we are with- I might best. I've been wrong plenty. But where we are with I've been wrong plenty. But where we are with preliminary is we're trying to find that balance of the community offset for the offset for the community purpose. And so we've got several meetings, we've got weeks of meetings planned. So we're just trying to make sure we're presenting the information. And so what would end up, and I'm going to speak to the mayor's point, not so much your point right now, Bob, is to the alternative. But if you said we want more detail, we want these types of things, I have very confidence that the applicant and snowmess discovery would be happy to meet, and we could come up with a framework to set, and I'm winging it. But if they needed $8.2, I think was their number. If they could raise $2 million in such and such a time frame, then it would go towards this. And if they didn't, then the town would end up owning the facility and the town would have full flexibility for these types of things moving forward. I mean, we could come up with those frameworks. And by the way, we won't pay cams and, you know, those types of things that, again, they could protect the town and our financial investments. But you're looking at me struggling right now because I see four of my five bosses split to two. And so this is really on you all to say, what are you going towards? And what I'm trying to say is I think if the mayor's position is let's reduce risk and I can be more comfortable with it if the risk was reduced then we can certainly work toward that end. Councilman Circus your point is more hey let's look at the all-there alternative that's amongst you guys you guys run the meetings you want more alternatives spend time looking at that great But what we can do is say, hey, the basis is here. That's worked towards it. And there's a couple other things that we haven't talked about. I think it were mentioned maybe even earlier with the plaza. Control of the plaza tonight. There needs to be some final design issues with the plaza. So I think, you know, and what you're going to get it with the resolution at the end, if that's the path you go, are generalities, or not generalities, but the statements that say, this is what needs to be delivered a final plan. And those statements would be these types of things. And then you guys get to decide, in fact, they deliver what you required, the security and those types of issues. I am not saying that I don't want to see more detail because I agree that it is important to see more detail I was just piggybacking off of what Bill said is that you have to have a little faith I mean you have to you have to just sometimes just go for it I mean I don't know that it's the right decision but I feel like if it's that important to us then we got to do something But I do think that we do need to have a little bit more detail. The other thing is that I don't feel comfortable taking cash and lieu unless I have some idea of what is going to be done with it. Whether it be something at the entryway or something at the point site. I have seen nothing. So if those people concerned citizens out there have something that they want to share, then I feel like they should come forward and make a presentation just like, you know, the applicant has done just like the snowmast discovery has done as to what the other options are. Because right now it seems like base village is the right place to put the discovery center. But if someone came and said this is why you should put it here and gave me a detailed explanation, then maybe I'd consider something else. And I've thought a lot about the base village and the discovery center and I'm like, hmm, do I want to in the busy season drive up there, find a parking spot, deal with all that. But after tonight it's like I can see this school bus pulling up to their rival center the kids getting off and going up the escalator if it's running the right way and I thought you guys would find that funny. And which it will be because there's so many to get up the elevator it's not going to work out. So anyways, and I can see it happening whereas before I was like, hmm, and you know a lot of local people might take the bus or do whatever. I mean, I can see it more and more. And so if there's something else out there, then I got to see it. I got to feel it. Well, if I may, yes, understand that they've offered you cash. Another than doing something on their own property, they can't really, Jim and Craig can't design a discovery center on your point site and say, this is your community. No, I get it. They can't design a rodeo or a whatever it is. And I did. But you had you Jack Kennedy comes up here and says that they have this idea for the point site. Well, where is it? Like what where's the idea? Exactly. I mean, everyone needs to see it. This is a public here. The citizens want to say that in the public hearing and present those concepts for you to consider then those citizens will need to contact related or not really. I mean, you can decide the cash is enough and you can provide other assets and you're not in a situation where you're using their property. So I just understand that the applicants' hands are kind of tied. They put the option on the table of money or here's what we can do on our property so I think you get there, but I wanted to put that out there for people so what I hear you saying John is we really can't look in Detail at what that money could do I didn't say that at all. Okay, so we could do that absolutely I Think if we're looking at risk though, a new building on the point site is gonna be a huge commitment. And I suppose if it's gonna be a nice age discovery center and a performance arts center and, you know, what it rouse, I mean, it's, to me, I mean, that's a much bigger risk than utilizing the space that is being proposed. Well, at this point, Bill, all we're trying to do is get it in front of us. So, number one, we get a sense of what the risk might be. But number two, the community gets a sense of what might be as well. Fair enough. I mean, I'm not opposed to looking at other options. And so, why don't we put it on the agenda? I'm sure we can work with, I mean, Jack or Bob or whoever was back there with the proponent, we can ask them to present the pictures and whatever else they've got. Well, you can also ask for more detail from Tom if he can do that. We do want more detail from Tom. I think we've got two. There's two paths here because there was two options. One was the Building Six as a community purpose, and we've seen that presentation tonight. Bob made a note, and I would agree with that. The building as just a shell would also require cash. We don't know what that number is. We haven't even negotiated that yet. But then there is take cash, and then the question is, what would the cash potentially get for us? There is a community option, there's some community people that have worked on another option that could be the point side could be down at. It could be a variety of places but the cash would be in the town pocket to determine how we would spend that money in terms of some type of a community purpose. So what I hear, you suggest, Clint, is we could tee up that presentation next week or the following week. You and related and our town staff could You and related and our town staff could work on coming together on the milestone and dollars and etc. So when we come back together to talk about community purpose, we are fully knowledgeable and so is the community as to the paths that are clearly options and we've got that issue. We can assure transparency amongst the community as to the path that we representing the community choose to go. And fundamentally it still comes down to cash or the project and then the question of the cash is what are some I think Councilmanman of Shanks said, Councillor Shank said sorry. What else what could we spend for? I mean I'm going to use their number 4.5 million bucks on and that's what you're truly going to say here are some options that we can spend 4.5 or more bucks on. And we could also too just commit to the building, right? We're not committing to the tenant necessarily. That's true. That's exactly correct. I mean, the way that the application is written and then Craig said earlier, it's the town taking the building and then we can negotiate the types of finishes and then you could still go out for some kind of RFP process for any kind of nonprofit to go in there, but yeah, that's, you're right. Is there an op, let me ask you this, Clant or Craig, if we really like the building and we, we community determines that we would prefer cash. Could that architectural structure, the take design, work for retail and restaurants? And because I think we got about 7,500, we were talking about last week. Yes. And that is a similar amount of square footage remains in the building if you exclude the cafe. I think that it could accommodate retail food and beverage. It would need to be modified. That grand entry would not work well for those types of uses. The general shell probably could work, but you definitely need to redesign the floor plates. definitely need to redesign the floor plates. Craig, what's the, what's the complete, the estimated completion date of building six? It's anticipated to be completed by November 2017. The reason for that date is to coincide with the completion of buildings for AB, building five, the limelight hotel and the lot two plaza. According to the milestone matrix, as it exists today in the development agreement, that building is to be delivered by November 2018. So there is some ability to lag delivery, delay the delivery of that building, but we do prefer to have that open at the same time to have the center function. It needs to be open. Yes. Or 2017. Thank you. Okay. I think we can ask another question. Yeah. One more. So one of the things in the staff recommendations, this question for you guys, said that the previously entitled building six was 17,177 square feet. And one of your suggestions is that we should get what was previously entitled. So explain how that works with regard to what they're saying and all that stuff. Well, certainly if they, if that's what council wanted to see is more square footage, it would require a redesign of the building. So what they're proposing now is really intended to be for purposes of a museum for lack of a better term. So if we thought it was in the best interest of the town to look at that as a retail food and beverage opportunity, etc. And the additional square footage could accommodate that then You know, basically it'd be a redesign. You wouldn't even be talking about a museum at this point We were thinking it would be more like another floor see in at this point. We were thinking it would be more like another floor that top floor could have a destination restaurant, might have an outdoor seating area, or could be used for purposes, especially events, etc. But that was our thinking as staff as we were looking at this. I would like to comment on that if I may. Sure. So we strongly disagree with increasing the massing of this building for reasons that Harry had mentioned during his presentation. We do believe that we need to keep the massing down. Of course, the building was entitled for something bigger. We do believe it needs to be smaller. When you're arriving into base village, the last thing you want to face is a three-story building. When you're approaching base village, it's already dealing with a bunch of buildings. It's on the periphery. So we wanted to soften the overall arrival. Base village is a lot of hardscape. We really thought that it's important to bring softscape into the overall design. And by reducing the massing of this building, increasing the overall softscape that wraps around the building, increasing the overall soft scape that wraps around the building. It's a much more enjoyable experience upon arrival than facing a three-story building. Bigger is not always better. I think that's a great explanation, so I appreciate it. But what if the town decides to take the cash? Are you going to build this small building? Yes. There is obviously alternatives. I mean, the fact is we haven't discussed everything. What would happen to Building Six if the town would want to take that cash? I think that there's something that we could discuss in terms of trying to figure it out. If you feel like the risk to the town is just too much, there's too much concern, and there's just not enough confidence in discovery today. Not saying in a couple of years from now discovery cannot reemerge or whatever it may be to not a mayor, your specific concerns to have enough cash to move forward maybe at the point site. So building six, what could it potentially be? I mean, I think that given its specific location, there was some mention of vitality, mention of food and beverage by Julianne retail flexibility of the building itself. I think that we would look to, you know, turn this into some type of retail food and beverage outlet, potential residential on top, but most likely not because we want to keep the massing of this building down. So I do believe that there is definitely some flexibility if the decision were to go cash. Because of course, what happens is building. Is it going to just be a whole? Do you think that it's important that you have this arrival building? And something that's differentiated among the overall architecture in base village, such as the Red Barn. The Red Barn is, you can tell it's retail. It doesn't look like the residential building. So it's important to keep that type of unique design, but also compliments the rest of the architecture and base village. Well, I've met a mayor. I just want to remind council that when we were first looking at that, it was going to be a residential building. And our big concern was that it was residential on the main drag. Didn't have retail vitality or ambiance or anything like that. So that's part of why we were pushing for something more and different. And you know now hearing Craig say that, you know maybe they would be looking at retail again. Well you know that if they were going to go, I'm sorry, residential again, on an upper floor, then I think you have to come back to, well, if that happens, what happens to the additional floor residential that is being proposed on this project as well. So it is going to be a trade off. And I think we just wanted to put these options out there for you all to consider because No, we do have some concerns about, you know, what this building is going to be for the community and and can we afford to use it? The way that you see fit so And you know, I just if I may yes, please go ahead Craig. No, I think that there's some concern with public restrooms I think that can obviously be resolved with some changing of this building if you were to select the cash in lieu. Obviously, there's some concern. Where does that cash go? We also have that same concern. We would definitely want to see those funds earmarked for specific cause and not to just kind of sit in the town's coffers and use maybe repairing the roads. I think it's important that it benefits the community as a whole including base village. So I think that you know there are benefits to Cache and Loom. We also do strongly believe in STEMAS discovery obviously it's part of our application as an alternate to the Cache and Loom because of the vitality and everything that has been discussed this evening. So if we did take the cash and lieu, what would remain in the plaza? The plaza would remain unchanged. So they were branding that we had presented this evening would say exactly the same. So the problem that we had previously with building six in the plaza, the plaza sloped. There was a big gray change from 4AB down to six. And so by changing this use, this building from residential to, let's say, commercial, we were able to expand the footprint of the plaza and about it to the building itself. Before you had to have a perimeter around that building, as really I said, it was residential. So you needed to have windows. You need to have some outdoor space. So by taking that plaza and putting it right up to the back of building 6, now you have created a much larger usable plaza area because you don't need that space anymore for a retail or commercial use, let's say. So that's why there are benefits of trying to not have any residential in that building to keep the area of that plaza as big as possible. And also, it's important, whatever is in building six that it interacts with the plaza, it needs to. It's naturally designed to occur in that fashion. Can I ask some general questions about the plaza? I think let's make sure that we've given direction to staff in terms of what you were suggesting and then we'll go back to the plaza. Well, if you get out your questions then we can make sure we're working on it. Okay, then okay, go ahead. Okay, my questions with regard to the plaza were, so when the ice skating rink is set up, there isn't room for anything else to go on there, right? That is correct. Okay, so in the winter, it's really just the ice skating rink. That is correct. I mean, there are ways of putting material over the ice, intending it, so you can have events, but the flexibility is not as great as it would be in summer. And then that lawn space that's kind of to the side of it, what is that? That is just a design feature. Olin wanted to create different squares of activity within the plaza. That lawn area may shift a little bit as we enlarge that ice skating rink. So we're trying to kind of see how that is incorporated. It's more important for us to maintain as much ice as square footage as possible. And also the water feature in the summer. So basically it's a patch of grass. It's a patch of grass. So in the winter, what does that look like? Snow. But what I'm saying is, you can't put a temporary fire pit over it or make it a usable space for the winter. I guess it's what I'm asking. Definitely. I think there's definitely options. You can do some kind of snowmen. Fire pit instead. You could have a snowman in the car. You could build snowmen. Yeah, you can build snowmen definitely. I mean, I think that the FFNA has Becky pointed out. She left you. She did leave me. It's not incorporated in the plans that you've seen, but fire pits are something that can be explored in terms of incorporating into the overall plan. I think it's great. And then next to that lawn space, there's some kind of kid something. Yes, a kid's play area. I can't get any. My question, I wanted to know more specifically what that was and what the flooring is. Like, is it that soft sort of spongy material? Is it hard? It's intended to be that rubber-type mat that you see over at tooth park, I believe they have it there. But other playgrounds, so it absorbs a child's fall. It's designed to be like mountable rocks. It's an act as if they're climbing out in the woods or whatever it may be, but with materials that are not as harsh as rocks and things like that. Trying to bring nature into the plaza area. OK. Just a thought. I mean, and you, I don't know, I don't exactly know why I'm even bringing this up, but because we've been talking about prehistoric animals a lot tonight, it occurred to me that there's a park and boulder that was designed around prehistoric animals. And they created all these climbing areas and so forth that are all in the design of prehistoric animals. And I guess in thinking about this, you know, kids area, I don't know how big it is, but it might be a nice tie-in if the, if we end up at Building Six as a Discovery Center, it might be a nice tie-in to have, you know, a kids climbing area designed around the same prehistoric animals that we're trying to deal with in the museum. No, absolutely. I think Harry touched on this in terms of the animals parading through the building around the building. Yeah, right. I think this would be an either option I think it's still a clue. It's the climb on it. Sorry. Anyway, I can tell you where the park is if anybody's interested. Similar to what? I'll have to look it up. Over there in the ass, but we've got that kind of a two. I'll hold some type with that little one. That's kids all over the place. They love it. They love it. OK, I think we're going to be concluding very soon in terms of discussion. But before we go there and continue the public hearing until next week, I'm going to turn to Clint if he has a summary of what we've touched. I don't turn to the mayor, but I mean I think what we'll do is we'll do our best to draft a resolution for consideration. It'll state for the public, for the community purpose type discussion. It will state that we'll follow the framework set up by the Planning Commission knowing full well that we would expect a citizen to show up and maybe present other alternatives. But we'll leave that to Jack still back there, but to Jack and his committee or group to have some pictures to present. And then you guys could evaluate that. But if we follow a framework by the planning commission and I'm just guessing that that's a appropriate way and then we'll have some language in there that hopefully reduces risks and get some extra numbers and ideas that will put the burden on snowmast discovery and the applicant to make sure that we're in the best position possible to use councilman or Bill Natson's way to be the leader on this and if we want to and then you guys can come back and you should feel free to say, no, you're dead wrong. We're on the edge on this one, trying to figure out what a middle ground between y'all is. And so we'll take a little bit of risk, write some words up, and then if we're wrong, I would hope that you would tell us that we're wrong and you're not gonna hurt any of our feelings with it, but we'll do it in such a way that hopefully we'll spark the discussion and make sure that we have something to react to you rather than trying to create that document to react with. If that works for you all. I think that works extremely well. Yes, Don. Before you continue the public hearing, Don Schuster from the Asmonskin Company, I just wanted to go on the record that we as a company really feel that this Discovery Center belongs in base village. It'll give us an opportunity to differentiate our resort from any other resort to have a facility like this in the base village. And to sort of talk about that just for a second, I don't know how many of you, but I go on TripAdvisor usually when I go someplace and look at what to do. You know what the number one activity in snow masses? Skin, we'll go there. Number two is the IceH Discovery Center. Go on tonight, you can look at the, what TripAdvisor says. And the IceH Discovery up in the mall is the number two activity from our customers that are telling us that's the thing to do. The other thing I just wanted to say if you are going to look at a presentation of an alternative on the point site or something else, I would suggest that Jack or whoever does this presentation comes up, also consider a couple of components. I've seen it, but if you were to put that on a point tonight, consider what your employee housing mitigation for your code would be for that facility. Consider what the parking requirements for a facility like that would be. And if the idea was you were going to try to park and base village, as you mentioned last time made a mayor about Parking and Base Village, what if the concerts are going on the same night up on the mall or in the Fannie Hill and the limelights got something going on? How do you handle that situation if you look at it? The other scenario with that is that point side is it got a steep grade. You need to know what you're cutting field calculations are really going to cost to do that and how does the fire department get around all four sides of that building, which are going to require to get there as well, just to look at that. So, you know, pedestrian scenarios, obviously that's a concern if it were to go on that site. I would tell you just if the idea is to put a bridge across there, you're looking at at least $2 million to put a pedestrian bridge from base village all the way across there. So those kinds of site considerations need to be considered if that presentation is going to be made as well. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, Tony. Make a brief because we have a lot more yet to cover yet. I'm going to cover more. OK. So what I was going to cover more. Okay. So what I was going to ask questions about is the ice skating rink and the operations of it and what the intent of it and sustainability of it. Will that be coming up like a special presentation so we can really understand. We don't know that much about the whole events pausing yet in terms of operations, but I would think they are ice skating, who's gonna operate it, who's gonna do the ski, who's gonna ski, skate. All that. My opinion right now on that ice skating rink, I think that's going to go the way that the Wolley mammoth did, the dinosaurs have gone away because of climate change. When you take a look at the four or five communities that have tried to do an ice rink, an outside ice skating rink, aspen's closed theirs, carbon-dale closes theirs, Glenwood can't maintain theirs, Vale, Avon, their ice skating rink is covered in the middle of the summer. And when you walk up there to me, when I went on that tour, it said, we're closed. We're closed for business. And I really think that if you want to make base village sustainable into the future, and something to what Alyssa said tonight, base village guests do not take the bus down to the rec center to go swimming. They don't, it's just the form of transportation to get down there. My recommendation would be to replace that ice skating rink or if somehow it can be ice skating rink in the summer and a pool keep that ice rink open. And is there only going to be open for six weeks, eight weeks, and then just sit there right now what you're creating the discovery center. It is a destination. People, as I said, I do a lot of security work, so I do work with a lot of groups. That is a destination. People like they plan a trip to come to Snowmass to go to the Discovery Center. And that's year round. That can keep that economy going. Same thing with swimming. And I think, I've said before this council, you take a look at all those little bit of kids after ski school, all the little bit of kids in the summer time. Okay. So, okay, thank you. Hopefully we can have more dialogue on that. Yep. So hopefully we can have more dialogue on that. Thank you. There's some back in the back. Yes, please come up. I have this kind of group and after all this. Oh, isn't it fun? I'm Susie Silgarde and an unknown in this group. But I have 45 years of being a museum director and curator, and I have a whole lot of thoughts on how easily this can work. A lot of these things that we've talked about have been done many, many times, and my experience is with the Children's Museum. Are you Indianapolis? Uh-huh. That's where I'm front, I know that museum real well. Well, I didn't know that. Yeah, from a new campus. Well, I think I need to tell you that it's one of the top 10 museums in the USA, and that's by 10Best.com. It's also one of the top 10 family museums in the USA, and that is from USA today. It's the best family-friendly museum in the USA from USA today and it's one of the top three science centers in the USA from Family Fun magazine and we are not a science center. All the science is worked into all the exhibits. So it can be, I mean I think it's amazing that they got that award. I also wanted to say that I have definitely favorite base village for this, the proximity I think for kids after they've had ski school can run in to see their favorite, I say, Janimal. And we do have actors and interpreters in gallery and you can have one in a gallery that can have a new program every afternoon for those kids. I'm actually quite emotional about this. Well, you've done it for years. I have and I just, and I think to think about putting in housing or food in place of a museum kind of bulls me over. So anyway, thank you for the opportunity. or food in place of un-vuseum kind of bulls me over. So anyway, thank you for the opportunity. Just be easy. So is he a you a you a you local do you live in our valley? One month a year. Well great. I don't know if you've met Tom but he might be very he might be very happy to have you on his board. Well Tom spent three days or the many minutes. Uh huh. Are you I use the current curator? No, I'm retired and okay. But your experiences and value. Oh, your experiences. So there. Yeah. And Susie, there was a fossil find in Indianapolis where the museum is? Sorry. Oh, sorry. Yeah, well, there was a fossil find years ago. We've had mastodons and mast. Are you speaking of that? In Indianapolis, yeah. Yeah, we have full size mastodons. We've- That was the inspiration for the museum. The inspiration for the museum was a bird nest from a child. And that was in 1925. And now it is 500,000 square feet and a $30 million budget. It's a huge, it's a wonderful, it is clearly a destination, it is a great place to go. Yeah. Bird nest. Yes. Yep. Yeah. So you guys are way ahead of a bird nest. But I'm just trying to make the connection between a significant find and the museum. You are so far ahead in having what you've found. I mean, I just can't believe everybody hasn't jumped on the bandwagon. And for a cultural addition to this community, it's fabulous. Thanks. If anybody wants to know anything about the Children's Museum, I will be happy to leave you a folder, but their credentials are impeccable. Oh, they are heads and knees in place. And we would love to bring the team in to work here. Oh, there may be a commitment coming. I've already committed to Tom, because the design team would be happy to come in and they've we've already talked about it Good to know. Thank you Okay Moving on Can I close our part of this I saying thank you Thank you. I'm considering other wash jokes. I don't see any out there. OK. Appreciate to consider our institution. We said from the beginning we understand as a complex situation. We're just part of this possible remedy. Made it clear that we're in a holding pattern. And there's a lot of work to be done. But we welcome that opportunity to sit down side by side with you and go through those steps to address the challenges. So thanks for the time. Thank you, John. Okay. Now, I just want to know there is Mr. Circus heads and issues I think around the parking. I just have a couple of things. Okay, so there's several things that appear to be unknown still. One is, I didn't see any resolution on street scape, which kind of gets into landscape. I don't think we've- Mayor, can you be a little bit more specific on that so that I understand? I want to talk a little bit about that and I think we're going to pick it up maybe at the next meeting. Because it's part of the planning commissions. Resolution six or seven. Number six here. Under site planning, landscaping, open space, and it's item number two. And it's just, I can't. Without trying to put words in Madam Mayor's mouth, I think we'd like to have some more information about that. Okay. And that has to do with landscaping and planting plant plans. And a little, it's what we saw when we did the fly through. And we kept asking about where people can set and not on the walls, but what are the sitting areas as you go with the streetscape and planting and Conversation areas all that stuff need more detail on that I don't Think we've clearly understand I heard about the stairs which is great, but we need to see that part yet I don't think we've gotten into restrooms. No, I've got the restrooms is another one. The stairs, I'm sorry. The building seven. Yeah, building seven. The one that you're gonna make public. It's all that circulation stuff. And building seven. The other thing that came to me yesterday, as I was doing all this, we all do, all that homework, is the view planes. The view planes from, if you're here at town hall, can you see up the mountain, can you not? We haven't seen view planes from various points and I'm sure you've got those. We don't. We were specifically asked for one view plane and that was coming up brush Creek. That is what we've included in the application. Yeah, I know. If there is something in addition, we can look to having it produce. It does take a decent amount of time and Becky could comment more on renderings than I can but how long would it take? Two weeks? Yeah probably two weeks. I mean to have it be like the photo real ones that we've been presenting to have it just be massing might be faster but it's not the same long time. It's interesting because we know that eight, eight, went up kind of a story but it's a viewpoint of the mountain in multiple if you're at the center what can you see up the hill that's what you can do on the reason why it's not included it's because base village is exempt from yeah I understand that and I just wanted to say that's why we don't have those specific viewplanes but we can look to see what we can provide in a short period of time. I think from Snowmass Center be a real good one. People like to look up the mountain. From the village street. The village street. The village street, you know, maybe different perspectives. Which village street? Down by 10 a. Yeah, you know, maybe across the bridge Down by 10 a. B. Yeah, you know, maybe across the bridge looking at 10 a. B. We have that in the fly. Everything within base villages in that fly through. Yeah, that's true. Oh, okay. Okay. All right. We got the other shots. Yeah, we've got the one coming up, Rush Creek. It's from the village center, perhaps Town Hall. Just a couple of them just so the community is clear. Madam Mayor, is the concern that the fly through is up so high that you're not getting what the perspective is from the pedestrian perspective. It's it's Julian Woods standing here in front of Town Hall and looking up what do you see okay or if you're over the center and you come out of the post office what do you see? Yeah, Pat. Come on up. At key for capital peak, I would suggest a view plane coming out of the transit center facing the mountain The fly through. Yeah, it's in the fly through. I think we saw that in the fly through Sounds like we better see the fly through. I think we saw that in the fly through. Sounds like we better see the fly through again. Yeah. We have that. We can show it to you if you'd like or if you're out of time. Next week. Yes, the chair. We will do it. It's what I just heard. I would suggest from the height of an average person. That would not be me. Now the fly through to change height like that is really hard because we had to, I mean, to get that animated, we have to send it to China and back. I mean, that's not like really a... Oh, this is not producing or... It's not a quit. It's a button. Just hit of the button. No. Okay, that's acceptable. Joe, you had a comment. Oh, it had a comment They come up to your waist someplace you in the middle of between Joe and Mark The center is that what I understood, from the center one from town hall. Center town hall? Yeah, yeah. The important elements of people really like to look at as you come up. I had, I don't know why I have this on here. The clinic. Review the access and the exit. I know we had that garage door. Have we heard from Aspen Valley Hospital that they're acceptable? Do we have a referral from them? As to the clinic, the entrance, the accessibility, and ski co in terms of friendliness to our ski patrol. The designs of the clinic in terms of access have not changed from what was originally approved and reviewed by Aspen skiing company in terms of the medical staff and as well as the ambulance and fire district and the hospital. And we have met with Elaine Gerson. I have a couple of times we have walked through the plans. I can't say that I specifically said, is the garage door acceptable, or would you rather have a gate, an arm of some kind? We can definitely see it with her. Yeah, could you contact Elaine? Of course. Or Dan, bonunk on that issue needless to say we've got a lot more work to do on community purpose in terms of presentation by the concerned or the citizens I don't know if that's available for next week but Clint might you be able to talk with him, see if they want to come in next week or the following one. I can call Jack and say to you, so. Okay. Okay. Any, okay. I'm just just kind of. So is he going to be limited to five minute public comment? Yeah. And you know, that's up to the chairman and up to the mayor to make that decision. I mean, we always encourage a level of consistency, but there's always some flexibility, but it's the mayor's calling. I thought it'd be part of the public hearing. Is he part of the public comment or part of the public hearing? You mean the public hearing for sure? Yeah, we want to be able to ask questions, and that's not the purpose of the public comment. No, absolutely be part of the public hearing. I I think Councillor Mattson's question was how thorough is the presentation going to be? Is it going to be 20 minutes or five minutes? And we always kind of aimed for that consistency and we always tell them five and if the mayor lets them go longer than- But if I were those citizens and you gave the amount of time you gave to the discovery tonight, I would say that wasn't consistent. So I would send you invited them to give them a fair period of time to present whatever the concepts they want. That would be the direction I would move to for consistency and transparency. So eight minutes. I got a couple of things. Okay. What do you want to see? This is on the Planning Commission Resolution number six. Under the site plan configuration, part of section 4 recommendations towards the end. Item number 1 has to do to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to do it. and The planning commission in their recommendation suggests that the submission of these could be administratively deferred until the certificate of occupancy. My feeling is that that really should be before the CO because once the building is up, even if there is no easement, it's very likely that either the planning director or the council will approve that so we can get people in those buildings and people in those beds. So what I would suggest is that we ask staff to work with the applicant to figure out another approach and perhaps some sort of surety at that time just in an effort to make sure that those easements do get completed. Yeah Craig Craig if I may. Joe Craig-Bocker can just provide an update since that recommendation has been adopted by a planning commission. We have met with the snowmast water and sand district. These easements are specific to that district, which is outside of the town itself, but we can just provide an update on what the status is and what specifically were they trying to address with that recommendation. Okay. Sure. I'm Joe Kraybacher representing Attorney for the applicant. So we had a meeting with Snowmass Water and Sand. Their attorney, Kit-Hambi, Jim was there, Craig was there, I was there, Jim Corpola, who's in our engineering department as well. And in general, there's several that have been deleted by Snowmass Water and Sand. They don't want them. Some that are under the snow melt, so they're like, we're not going to take them under the snow melt. And there's a handful of them. Well we've completed, I'll say this, snowmast acquisition has submitted all the on-site easements that we control. And snowmast water and sand's district is, well, we don't want to accept any easements at all until we have completed segments. So for example, if you have a water loop, they want all the pieces to the water loop before they'll accept any of the water easements. Likewise, sewer loop, same thing. So the applicant has actually submitted everything in the form that Snowmass Water and Sand wants. And there's about five easements that are Aspen's Scheme Company, as I understand, Aspen's Scheme Company previously submitted all those to Snowmass Water and Sand. Snowmass Water and Sand wouldn't take them for kind of the same reasons, or select variation of those reasons, and those easements, who knows where they're at. So, Gurd and Don have been working to generate, there's five of them that ski co-controlls. And I think the discussion that we were having or proposing was that those would be required as a condition of building permit for building five, obviously subject to Aspen's key company input. Okay, so that leaves us down with a handful of them and those handful deal with five associations or other owners. We have Hool at the hive for a couple of small pieces that are up at the top by the Skittles. We have a Lycan hearth has several. I think there's three LycanHarths. Onclave has one sewer easement, which is on that edge of its property. And it slips my mind what the other association is. There's one other association, and then there's two of them that come from SRA, S-V-R-A, which as we understand those easements or those slivers, so to speak, those pieces that SVA has transferred and some of those deal with one property that we're investigating which is ours, which is Mount Charlet, and then I believe Stonebridge is the other association. So we've pulled all the association documents. We need to go through them, locate the easement on the site, figure out is that a common area owned by the association who has the authority to approve it, is it the board, is it a vote by the members, etc. So what we're proposing is we'd like to have those five associations, so to speak, be tied to the final CO and understand Bob's comment about we'd rather, you know, Bob's views. We'd rather have those sooner than later. Our concern is that at the end of the day, the leverage really lies at snowmast water and sanitation district. If you get a association who just, you know, refuses to do it, we'd be up to them to condemn. And we've discussed with them their exercise, their eminent domain power in order to establish those and we reimburse for, you know, the costs that were going through that process and any compensation that would have to be paid, which we think would be very minimal because, you know, they're underground, they're essential, you know, to the operation of the system. So that's why we're just a little concerned and may take a little time. And snowmast water and sand's having the same discussion with us, which is, well, if there's some that you can't get, what kind of security you're going to give to snowmast water and sand. And the idea be, well, it needs to be sufficient so that if we had, so if you disappear and we had to do the condemnation, we'd be whole at the end of the process. That's a quick summary of where we're at. Yeah, so I mean, I recognize that there's a lot of complexities in these easements. But honestly, the reality, if you run into issues as an example where one of these H.O.A.s won't allow, won't provide you the easement, we're going to, I think we're going to be in a position where we're just going to have to allow you to go forward without getting the easement. And again, I don't know, John, I have to really defer to you. What's the what is the problem? You know, what's the potential issue of allowing the applicant to go forward, opening up a building without having an easement for whatever the water, the sewer, whatever it is. They turn off the water and turn off the sewer. They couldn't open their building, but it's between the sanitation, water, and sand and the applicant. Well, in some cases it's between the NHLA and the applicant, no? It's a grant to easement, but. But it doesn't always fall back to water in sand. Yeah, because it's their system. And let me just, Joe Craigbuckier, and let me just add another comment. If it's not clear, these are all easements for infrastructure that's in place. Yeah, I realize that. Yeah, I realize you're not building anything new. You're just trying to cover what's already there. Essentially, the town would not have liability if that is your issue. Okay. Okay. Okay, and then I just have one more item and I'll bring it up a few weeks ago. When we were having some of the parking discussions, we got into the subject of lock offs. And as I remember it, if a lock off is rented, the renter does not get a parking pass to park in Bayes Village. And that is supposed to be monitored by the Master Association. Okay. Go ahead, Craig. If I've got it wrong just a little bit the Unit is a unit a lock off associated with the unit. It's not entitled to Parking although it's up to the management entity to say can that lock off have a parking permit I mean it's based on what is happening in the garage at that point. To say if someone rents a lock-off, they cannot park. That is not exactly true. Because in accordance with the documentation of the PUD, it's on a first-come-first-served basis. So each time a lock-off is rented, the management company for that particular lock off, makes a decision about whether to give that rent or a parking permit or not. And that decision is based on what do you think? What do you think? What is that decision based on? It's based on if you have six units, let's say that you manage. And two of those units have lockoffs. So in essence, you've got 6 times 0.75, there's a number of parking spaces that are allocated to a certain extent to those specific units. You've got nine, or let's say all the units occupied, and you only have two of the main units arrive with cars and the lock off unit comes with a car. You know you have excess parking. I mean it's based on what you're working with in terms of what's in your war specific. But the way now we're setting up we have multiple management companies. It's correct. So, whereas capital peak might be full, building 8 might not be. And all of these spaces for all the units, all the residential spaces are essentially one pile. So, without communication between Management companies one really doesn't know if the parking lots full or not full as far as being able to give a parking pass to Someone who rents a lock-off. Yeah, there's definitely some Overlapped that can occur confusion, but at the end of the day, the situation is not so much of a problem in terms of what we're seeing for residential usage for parking. We always look to the viceroy to look to what really is happening in the marketplace just because of the number of units and just how that property operates. We've never really peaked above 50% at any point and that's on average through an entire year in the winner that is closer to 25%. So there is space in the garage. I mean we are not seeing residential max out and so there is you know definitely flexibility and I think think the associations themselves that govern those specific Residences should work together. The PUD is a guide. The garage must operate in accordance with the PUD. The specific operations when you get down, so let's say the village company needs to abide by that PUD, but they could come up with their own operating plan. That is something that's more in line with what they experience in terms of the type of product that they're offering. Well, then I'm not sure what my direct, really directives would be. One concept would be to have the village operating company that manages the parking lot, create something in their operating agreement that's a little more specific about how to handle this situation with Locos. I mean, the other thought would be to literally designate to create a few more spaces in the residential area to cover some percent, you know, a small percentage of Locos use. What are you thinking? How many? It's unfortunate there is no room that we have no flexibility. Unless you reduce parking rates associated with commercial. I mean, that's where you start to see some flexibility. But what staff, you know, has been concerned with in terms of providing contingency parking in the future, you know, should help offset some of these concerns because the valet operations could be that release valve in terms of providing additional parking for those residences that can't park or guest, parking or going to the residences in the podium that can't park in the podium that needs to park in a contingency lot. Well, I mean, the valet was one area where I thought this spot could come from. Valet is an offset to commercial. Valet is not excess. There's no excess. No, I understand. There is no excess. No, I get that. I understand there is no excess. But what I'm suggesting is that the concept of parking for a lock-off spaces was something that, for whatever reasons, was never included in the original PUDs. Going back to 2004, in the original parking requirements, there was never anything there. I thought I heard a few weeks ago that there were problems or issues about it. And I'm thinking that now is an opportunity to at least discuss whether those problems are real or only in my mind. And if any of my fellow council members feel similar. I mean, I brought this up like forever ago. And one thing I will say is you said, someone said from the applicant, there's 200 day skier only and there are additional flex spaces on P2 and P3. So commercial is flex. When I say flex in the daytime, it's not expected that the user of the garage is going to a restaurant. It's expected that those spaces that are flexed would be skiers. So we're required to have 200 day skier parking. And outside of the 200 is satisfying the commercial generation within a big village. The base village, the parking costs go to the people in the metro district, right? Or capital P. Caden, they're controlling that. Only the spaces associated with their building. So capital P, ABC, it's like how many spaces? Let's just say capital, okay, remember. They've got 74 units. Right, no, but I'm saying like the Metro district sets the price for parking in the garage, right? Yes, the Metro district owns the day skier parking and the commercial parking and the base village people are part of the Metro district They're not they're not They fund the Metro district the spaces are owned by base village company and So there are allocations amongst all the owners within that garage. So you could change the rules if you wanted it? Well generation is set by the town and by the beauty. So if the town would want to say you're required to provide x number of spaces but we are willing to reduce it by why to allow for additional residential parking. I think at the end of the day, we should be more concerned about commercial parking than residential parking. Experiences shown over the last couple years that we do not have a residential parking issue and we're not a drive to market. But you did say that there are issues with people who have units and they have more than one car or if someone's visiting them and they come up with their own car and you said technically they have to go park in the intercept lot. You did say that someone said it from your side that happened up here. Snowmass hospitality someone said that and that Pat made the comment that she had a guest come and she bought some kind of pass that allowed them to park in a numbered lot, which we later determined isn't allowed. And so my question, and my final thought is that what's the difference between you giving a person in the lock off a place to park in the garage and not a person who has two people in their unit, both with cars. It's the same thing. It is. And I've not put on the record to say that we will not give a lock off of parking paths. I just want to just set that straight. But I think it was said that if you come with an extra car, it needs to be parked at the intercept lock. I think that there are other ways to deal with the overall operations of the garage itself and it starts with communication to the guests who's arriving and you know, alerting them to what the parking situation is. I mean, if you go to tell you ride mountain village, there really is limited-cell parking. You have to valet your car and they tell you right, mountain village. There really is limited self parking. You have to valet your car, and they tell you beforehand, or they'll tell you there was no parking associated with your rental. And I think that it's imperative for whoever is managing those units to communicate this with guests. So there is no confusion upon arrival. That is why the PUD requires transportation to and from the airport to reduce the likelihood of a guest arriving with a vehicle and also the requirement that the operator provide shuttle service. If the specific operator, let's say that it's Alpine Property Management, manages X number of units in the base village area and they don't provide transportation, they're in direct violation of the PUD. They're required. The homeowner is abound by that specific requirement. If you're going to be in an RMA, and if they don't abide by it, that's an issue that just needs to be over in force overall. I mean, it just seems that one of the most consistent emails we get from the people that own a base village is that the issue with the parking. Like what Bob's saying, they're upset that the lock-off people get parking, the, you know, commercial vehicles are parking and they're parking. I mean, it seems in general, even though you said you've made efforts to make it better, that when the season, when we're in high season, like, how are you really going to control all this? So, I'll be quite honest. It's commercial. We have allowed commercial vehicles to park in that residential zone because of the lack of residential demand for those spaces. We have not reached capacity with regards to the residential generation with capital peak. But regardless if you've reached capacity or not, it's their parking spaces. They're not paying for it. But they're designated, okay, she's in there. They're not designated to them. Well, no, but they're designated residential, not commercial. But there's excess parking in that area. And my only point is the garage that has been occupied by the commercial vehicles is not paid for by capital peak or any other residential owner within base village. They only pay for the spaces associated with their specific unit. Its .75 is pretty much how the allocation works or the assessment works. The commercial vehicles were parked there to allow for less impact to the commercial area and so we were a bit more lenient in this time of overabundance of parking because we do not have enough residences to actually use all those spaces. And so it was just a matter of we had all this excess space, why don't we figure out a way of making it work in an interim basis? It was interim. And yes, it probably was abused to a certain extent. And you know, Jim has worked to correct that and there aren't no where there should not be any commercial vehicles within that residential zone. It is an area that's controlled by a hang tech. So a commercial, let's say tenant, can't access that specific parking zone unless they have someone else's hang tech that is in the residence. But if you have, let's say, Alpine property management and you have Snowmass hospitality and everyone's renting out different things to Bob's point. Like, how do you know is there's some computer system that says, oh, that we've already given out five extra permits so we can't give out anymore. I mean, it just seems like there's no, the management of it seems a little chaotic and it seems that it would only get worse. But that's my opinion. I'm with Bob. I think there is a lot of variation. I think we need to come back to that point, but I want to go back to what Mr. Smith sent to us, the quick facts. It says in here. And I'm trying to get down to the number of parking spaces that we've been talking about. And it's late in the evening and we're going to pick back up on this next week. It talks about 162 resident spots. And that's not what we currently have. 375 day use, 57 SNOMAS Mountain Club. And that's probably when we were going to have the little now with Mountain Club versus my might. So I mean, I'm reading through this and then trying to tie what is in the application from the commitment for the owners at base village. So Madam, that is a marketing piece when you sign a purchase agreement. It says you cannot rely on any information that's been provided within the sales process. I have the go to the disclaimer. I just want to say there is a disclaimer in every single contract that. Of course there is. But you have to understand parking and Pat Keifer could elaborate on this. We're very clear when someone purchases a unit in base village and it's very clear in that purchase agreement what they're actually buying and what you can rely on what you cannot rely on. And those specific parking numbers are based on a plan that has changed. I can say this, I mean, when I go through heaven, doesn't happen, doesn't happen, doesn't happen, doesn't happen. The problem, and I think I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, but the problem is the rental companies and the commercial, it's in her contract, she knows it. When the renters come in, they're not being told that. And that's where the problem comes in. And you can say it's because someone's driving from the airport or whatever it is, but that's where the problem comes in. And you can say it's because someone's driving from the airport or whatever it is. But that's clearly what the issue is is that you guys say it's when they sign the contract. But then when they run off the lock off, they're not being told. This is a managed parking situation and that's where the problem comes. And by your own admitted, commercial use, I don't know who's responsible for that management, but I got a feeling, ultimately or currently, it's snowmass acquisition company in some shape or form. And that's not happening. So they're hearing complaints, and you can say this is a promotional piece and it doesn't and they signed off that it means nothing. But. And I agree with you, John. I think that there needs to be better communication among the management companies themselves and understanding and communication between the owners as well as the property management companies. But my only point to that specific question with regards to parking is that generation is associated with a plan that doesn't exist anymore. It's changed so many times since that was produced by interest. And so the number of units have changed which impacts the number of parking spaces that's required. I'm sure if I can figure out the date of that publication, we can tie it back to what the total number of units were at that time and it should equal whatever is in that. Yeah there's a whole thing about a mountain garden. I mean there's all kinds of stuff in here. I'm going what village is this? I was pretty serious. A pat you have your hand up. Pat Keat for Capitol Peak, three quick points. I was standing in the lobby just this morning when a call came in to Snowmass Hospitality, people are coming for tough motor. They're renting a three bedroom condominium. They wanted to know if it was okay if because they're renting three bedrooms, they have a fourth person coming and they're bringing four vehicles. Just wanna tell you that that's what's happening day-to-day on the front desk. I would also like to offer a point of fact that Capitol Peak pays $940 a year for every space that we're allocated in the parking garage. And I know that there's a lot of experience with vice-roy parking. When Jim and I used to meet at six o'clock in the morning in the parking garage, I counted all of the cars that were in the general area adjacent to Capitol Peak. In the first week in August, the average for full space parking was 90 percent full. So I'm not talking about handicap parking or compact parking, but I'm talking about what people drive to mountain and they drive SUVs and they park in full-size spaces. So that's actual documented. I counted them. Thank you. Thank you. Well, we've got some more work to do on parking. Can I make one? Yeah. You cannot exclude HandiCat and compact spaces when you try to figure out that generation. We can't, you know, exclude the folks that are coming with freeists or coming with disabilities. Those spaces have to be provided and there is an rhyme or reason other than required by the code for handicap spaces in terms of location. Well, in the same breath, there's a lot more flexibility than you're making out because you have a finite number and they don't have to authorize more units that generate too much traffic for that finite number. There's flexibility on that side as well. And then you get into the whole question do you have enough units in base village support the overall retail? I mean, it all comes together. It's a complicated you know calculation in terms of how all these units are. You're the one that said there was no flexibility. I'm just pointing out that there is flexibility. I would like to know where those three extra cars for that unit for Tough Mudder are parking. Well I'm gonna look into that Pat May have overheard something three times last week. The front desk called me where they had two vehicles and they asked if they could have a second hang tag. You can check with Jack Roberts, our front desk person and I told him absolutely not. There was no issue and they parked somewhere else. So maybe this is a one off. I'll find out who was on the front does and deal with it. But we are managing it. I checked for commercial cars every single day. There are no commercial vehicles in there and I'll find out about this unit. So Pat, do you know the unit number? Did you hear that much? No. So my desk person just related to me when they got off the phone. Well, what was the answer that... No, you know, the past day... What was the answer, Pat, that the front desk gave this person? They told them that they had one parking desk. Okay, well, and that's fine. I mean, that's what we would hope that they would tell them. Our third emergency. Yeah, but what they, but what they tell them and what they actually do could be two different things. Let me just say that that my point was not about tag management or what was said or done. My point was the demand of people who are coming to the mountain during specifically team sports like tough mutter. When a whole big team comes, they don't all come from Denver or Colorado Springs. They can come from multiple locations, which is, and so my point was from a demand view point That was the demand for that set of people for that condominium for this weekend and From a village viewpoint when we want to provide a world-class resort environment to say that okay, you can have one parking space. Then the people have to go find somewhere else to park. So I'm speaking to demand. I mean, we're trying to be a world class sustainable resort. So let's build four spaces per unit. I mean, we're trying to address typical demand and not a one-off event. And of course, during one-off peak events. Yeah, well, can I just ask one question? Craig, Jim, do you have an update on where you are relative to the study we were talking about for the number of handicapped spots and the number of compact. And I realized compact is a little more, a little different animal. Exactly. Dr. O'Hall dressed up. I can address it for Becky because she's not always in the loop in terms of day-to-day activities. Working with Mary Mashburn. You're being crude, Lauren. So I'm working with Mary Mashburn. So we're going to work with Mary Mashburn in her office. And we have engaged the code consultant. We are going to work with Mark Kittle as well to make sure that we are providing adequate number of handicap spaces in accordance with the code. We also will review that plan with Challenge Aspen to make sure that they are okay with that plan and the location is driven more by the code, but we'll definitely see what we can do. The number of compact spaces, there is a specific maximum in the PUD and some of our limitations have to do with columns as I noted the last time through our door. But we will look through the garage and scrub it to the best of our ability and try to find additional spaces. You know, in 10AB, Becky was able to find three additional spaces. I know that's in the future, but those are all contingency spaces. So I'm sure that we can find more as we continue through this process, and that will all be submitted with final. One other update with parking. We have contacted the five vehicles who have kept their cars there longer than they should when they're not here. And we've been successful moving two of them out. And we have three more to move out. So we're going through every single item there. Thanks, Jim. One person chose to move it to his other property in Snowmass and then we gave somebody else an alternative to move it up to the mountain shell A, but we have a few extra spaces. So we're trying to work with everybody. We'll pick up parking a little bit more next week. And, you know, recognizing that some of us travel a lot and other resorts in this area, parking is always at a prime. And you pay big bucks when you vali. And I assume that's kind of the notion of the vali part of this formula as well. So it discourages you in terms of driving a parking at hotel. In Madam Mayor can I ask one question on clear? Yeah. I'll be really quick on the community purpose just so we have clear direction going into the next week or two. You can ask that one question. I have some more community purpose that's going to go right back at you. Okay, go for it. Okay. So direction I think we heard was to work with snowmast discovery in terms of trying to answer some of the questions that have been raised by the board. And the town staff. And town staff and council on the board. And then the other is the cash and lieu and with regards to the cash and I think there's two different you know issues that needs to be addressed well if we take the cash the town takes cash not me I would love to take the cash building six would become one and if you're going to take the cash where does that cash go and so I think those are the questions that need to be answered. That's a very good question. And so I think that we can try and address some of them in terms of where can the cash go. We can't control that. But we do agree that it should be remarked that that were to be the direction. But we'll work with some of this discovery. And we'll also work with our design team to see if we can come up with some sketches for the alternative just in case that was the direction the council wanted to head in. And there'll be more negotiation if you know we talked about the planning commission recommendation was the building plus cash. Yes. And we talked about another one that would be cash and move. The number is still Negotiable just put that out there. I think we all are aware of that. Yes, okay Okay Is there anything else relative to base village? If not we will continue the public hearing until If not, we will continue the public hearing until the 15th of September at 4 o'clock. I get the date right. Yep, and the time. Oh, about that one. Okay, thank you all for coming. It's here. And now we'll move into the next item on the agenda, which is Council updates, anything from the plant? Nope. I'll just. Bob, anything? Nothing from me. I will be leaving town Thursday. Elissa is going to attend the raft of meeting time, so I appreciate it very much as the alternate for the town. And I don't have anything else. Bill. Great weekend's a concert. This great event. Yeah, thank you. And thank you to town staff. Will I say anything? No, I'm just going to that meeting for you. Thank you. OK, do I have a motion for adjournment? I motion to adjourn. Thank you, do I have second? Second. Thank you again. Again. Your time. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Same side. Thank you.