Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the January 31st, 2022 special meeting of the Pasinist City Council. The council did meet at 4 p.m. in closed session and there's no reportable action. With regard to this special meeting, you all recall that this meeting was made a special meeting in order to, for the Council and the public to be able to address questions that it involved policing policies and procedures. Members of the Council have asked, as well as members of the public have asked that we hold a special meeting and here we are. So item 9 on our agenda is that item intended to clarify what the council's jurisdiction is and in many cases isn't what the council is legally authorized to do under its charter, under state law, and within the confines of constitutional constricts and constitutional law. And so we'll look forward to that presentation. So why don't we go ahead and call the meeting to order with a calling of the role. Thank you, Mayor Councillor Romer-Hanton Thank you, Mayor. Councillor Marhamton. Blessed be here. Councillor McKenney. Here. Councillor Marrame Madison. Here. Councillor Marrame-Masuda. Here. Councillor Marrame-Rivas. Here. Councillor Member Williams is absent. Vice Mayor Wilson. Here. Mayor Gordo. Here. There's a quorum of the Council President. I'll ask our Sergeant and our arms domino to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance. Sergeant? to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Thank you, Sergeant. I will go directly to the consent calendar. There are- Oh, I'm sorry, thank you. Before we move on to the consent calendar, we do have some announcements and requests to a journey memory of two very important Pasadena and contributors to Pasadena. The first is, and I really regret to inform the council on the community of the passing of our friend and colleague, Betty Ho, a long time Pasadena resident and community volunteer who passed away on January 1st of 2022. Betty served as field representative to former council member Katie Nack, served as a deputy to Mayor Bill Bogard during 15 years of working with Mayor Bogard. She provided advice on trends and developments in the city and represented the mayor at meetings, businesses of businesses, neighborhoods, arts and other associations. She performed her duties with commitment, competence and good judgment. And only we described this excellent. And at the same time, service director and advisor and a volunteer for several Pasadena organizations, her record of service with the city's exemplary. Betty served on the boards of many civic organizations, including the Army Center for the Arts, Five Acres, and the Pasadena Community Foundation, the YWCA of Pasadena Pacific Oaks, College and Children's School, Pasadena Education Foundation, and the Pasadena Respiratory Health Foundation among others. She was also an advisor on the advisory board for the Pasadena Senior Center, friends of the Levitt Pavilion Pasadena Community Foundation in Walden School. Betty was a member of the Community Benefits Committee at Huntington Hospital, served as President of the Pasadena Child Health Foundation and as a member of Cal Tech's Committee for the Protection of Human Subjects. She was recognized by Villa Esperanza Services as a guardian angel and by Huntington Hospital as President Circle Donor. But he was an extremely valuable contributor to Pasadena and offered a thoughtful and fair approach to community issues. She worked to improve our community, to vote in countless hours of dedicated support and enhance the reputation of the city among the greater community by giving of her time talent resources. But he was unique in her ability to gain confidence and friendship of all persons with whom she works. She was truly an inspiring model for all engaged in public service and will be greatly missed. I think we would be remiss if we didn't address the fact that Betty went about all of her duties in responsibilities in a very calm, fair and elegant manner. And it's truly one of the most elegant pass of events that I've ever had the opportunity to work with inside or outside of City Hall. I'm proud to call her a friend, as I know many people in this room outside of City Hall. And so I am asking that the Council adjourn and that he's memory of also sad to report on the passing of Inman Moore, long time United Methodist Minister, Civil Rights Act, this, and passing a business plan who passed on January 26th, 2022 at the age of 96. Pastor Moore was a long time United Methodist Minister, Civil Rights Act, this and businessman and Pasadena, who penned his autobiography on the road to civil rights at age 90. Nearly 60 years ago, Pastor Moore was one of 28 Methodist business church in Mississippi that signed the statement opposing the continuation of the segregated society. Some of the signings were locked out of their churches, received death threats after signing and many ended up leaving Mississippi and headed to California as Pastor Mooreordid. After ministering at Palmville United Methodist Church and Crescentral Valley United Methodist Church, Pastor Mord retired in 1970, and he and his wife Nelly created two successful companies in Pasadena, more vending and tournaments souvenirs. They sold the business and retired in 1997, but that didn't stop past or more from continuing a life of service, dedicated to promoting civil rights and social justice. He remained active in the ministry and was actively involved in a variety of civic and charitable organizations in our area. And in 2019, he and his wife of 73 years, Nelly along with Congressman Adam Schiff, were honored by ACT for their decades of ethical leadership in around Pasadena. Nelly passed in February and passed more so by by his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. He lived a long, rich life filled with service to others and to his state. And on behalf of a grateful community, he too will be very, very missed. And again, another friend and someone who contributed greatly to Pasadena. And so I would ask that we adjourn tonight's meeting and memory of Betty, Ho, and Pastor Inman. Thank you. Mayor, if I may. Mr. Kennedy. Mayor, I wanna join with your comment related both to a leader Betty Ho in particularly to Reverend Inman Moore who served for many years on the board of the National Association for the Advancement of Color People as well as just establishing strong relationships in the African-American community in Pasadena, not behind the scenes, but on the front line, joining locked-in arms fighting for social justice, economic justice, and human rights, he was someone who cared about the least of these in our community. And in part I think that because like my mother hailing from Mississippi, he also held for Mississippi and when you find someone of good character from Mississippi, you never forget them. And so we will never forget Reverend Inman Moore and his partner Mrs. Moore for what they've done for Pasadena, for what they've done for greater Pasadena, which includes the owning incorporated area of Al-Tedena. So thank you, Mayor Gordo, for taking the time to acknowledge Reverend Inman Moore in Betty Hall for their service who are great city. Thank you, Mr. Panty. Vice Mayor Wilson. Thank you, Mayor. Certainly very appropriate to recognize both these pillars of our community. I didn't know anybody oh well, but I did know Inman Moore, a man of 96 years and a bit of a role model for many of us is wisdom, his gentle nature, his fearlessness. I think there's all things that I know I was always impressed by Inman when I spoke to him. He lived in District 7 of Port Goba. I'm gonna see him walking and occasionally offering him a ride. And I'm deeply saddened by his departure. Epic person in our history and saddened to lose. And so thank you for recognizing him. Thank you very much, Mayor Wilson and Mr. Kennedy. With that, again, we will adjourn in memory of Betty and Inman at the end of the meeting. And let me just say if there was a model for field deputies and field representatives and how we should work with the community, Betty hosts certainly embodied that. And I had the opportunity to work with her for a number of years. And she really served as a mentor to me and to all field reps. So we'll adjourn in her memory and pass your moors as well. Thank you. So let's move on now to the consent calendar and start with we reported out of communications. Yes. Thank you, Mayor. For item five, we received three letters expressing concerns and or disappointment with the proposal proposed integrated resource plan, power plan update, and it advocated for the city to contribute to the solutions that are needed to stop the destruction of the environment and address climate change and provided comments on the matter. For item number nine, the city clerk's office received 12 letters providing comments, including advocating for the city manager to amend the OIS policy, demanding the termination of officers involved in the shooting of Anthony McLean and accountability to the in the passing and police department. Those correspondence were posted online, distributed to the council and are part of the record for tonight's meeting. As a friendly reminder to the council and the public, as the mayor stated, this is a special meeting so public comment is limited to items on the special meeting agenda. Also, as was the practice last week, when members of the public are speaking, I will ring a bell once when 30 seconds remain on the public comment, on the person's time remaining on their public comment, and then I will notify them when their time has expired. Also members of the public are reminded that they shall direct comments to the body as a whole and not the staff, individual members of the body or the public. Any person making personal and pertinent or slanderous remarks about members of the body staff or the public or who shall become boisterous or threatening or personally abusive of the body staff or members of the public. Shall we ask by the mayor to cease and assist such activity and may be requested or required to leave the meeting in the event the behavior continues to disrupt the meeting proceedings? speakers. We have speaker cards submitted for items 1, 2, 3, and 5 on consent. So 1, 2, 3, and then we have a number of cards related to item nine. Yeah, and so I am going to ask the speakers to Stick to the subject matter of the item that they are wishing to speak to if you wish to speak on policing matters Then item nine we will ask you to speak there. So for those, why don't we take a sweet motion and hold items one, two, three, and five and all entertain a sweet motion for the balance of the consent calendar? Move. Move, third second. Second. Seconded. Moved. Seconded. Roll call. One, two, three. So is on consent items four and six is the sweet motion. Councillor Meyton. Yes. 4-6 and 7. Sorry. I might understand. Yes. Councillor McKenney. Yes. Councillor Meyton. Councillor Meyton. Yes. Councillor Meyton. Yes. Councillor Meyton. Yes. Councillor Meyton. Yes. Councillor Meyton. Yes. Councillor Meyton. Yes. Councillor Meyton Yeah, Councilmember Williams is absent vice mayor Wilson. Yeah mayor Gordo. Yes motion is a group without opposition and Let's start with public comments related to Item one and this is a vacation of easel and set nine 95 oneself pharaohs. So this person, Janay Lennox, put in for 1, 2, and 3, so we would ask her to speak on all three during her public comment. This Lennox, if you'll address the issue of the vacation, the selection of the CalPERS retirees, and also the contract with creative partners. And when we get tied in through all ask the vice mayor to address that matter. Muslims. Okay so I speak for all all of the audience and I only have a minute. Minan 30 seconds and your time is starting. Your time is starting now. All right. It doesn't really make sense. We should actually get more time if we're going to speak on some of the items. But, okay. I first want to address that. We absolutely need justice for Anthony McLean as we're going into the. Man, if you stick to the issue of vacation, if you'd like to speak on police matters, that's item nine. Otherwise, this is the IRP that item 2, the issue of vacation of a property and a contract with resulting from an RFP. With the contract with RFP, okay, I'm sorry, I'm a little confused. So I'm only speaking on not all of the items that I originally said I was going to speak on. So I'm only speaking on two to these the items that I was originally said I was going to speak on. So I'm only speaking on Tuesday. Which one, which number three? And in three. Okay. The contract. So so yeah, so on item three, we are saying that we are rejecting you guys hiring the city measure who is a pro cop that is not what the city needs right now. We need someone who is radical and also needs someone who is going to put the items that the people want on their agenda. Obviously, someone who's pro cop is going to be extremely not just biased, but they're not going to do what the people want. Obviously, we need that to happen immediately and need that to happen now. So we are rejecting this person who no one knows about, who is just not even part of the city. So we are rejecting that. And that is my last comment on that. Okay. The, why don't we term to item three? Yeah, the speaker is actually incorrect about what this item represents. This is simply an alternative device made to introduce it. This is simply a contract to continue the search for the next city manager and is not as the speaker mistakenly states a rejection or the hiring of an individual. It's, yeah, W Brown is a company that will assist us in the search for the next city manager. And this work comes to the council as the result, and I'm speaking specifically about item three, as the result of the work of an ad hoc committee that was chaired by Vice Mayor Wilson, and consisted of council members, Revis, Kennedy, and Mr. Masuda. And I want to thank the ad hoc committee for doing the work of going through the RFP applications and bringing us this recommendation. Vice Mayor Wilson, would you want to acknowledge the work of the committee and staff. There was an RFP six responses were submitted and reviewed by the staff. We the committee reviewed all the responses to which we brought in for interview and actually were pressed with both the finalists and after extensive conversation and through interviews. after extensive conversation and through interviews, we unanimously recommend the hiring of WBCP as the executive recruitment firm to help us source and hire the next city manager. Thank you. With that, I'm happy to move this item. Okay. There's more public comments. Yeah, there'm happy to move this item. Okay. There's more public comments. Yeah, there's more public comment item three. And just so the public is aware, the process now moves into its next phase. Should this contract be approved, there would be an ad hoc committee of four other members of the council who would simply review together with staff, the names of applicants that are brought forward. Applicants for the city manager position, those applications would be reviewed by the Hock Committee and then interviews would be set up Recommended to be set up the interviews would be conducted by the full City Council Not the ad hoc committee but the full City Council will conduct the interviews as we've done in the past Mr. Hampton Is WBCP Who is the I'm sorry, let me just ask this question. Who was the organization or firm that hired the last city manager or that we hired for the last city manager? It was someone else. This is not the same firm. I just want to make sure that okay then I will vote and figure. It was an individual like I'm blanking on his name but it was. No, you don't have to say it's totally fine. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't the same firm that we used for the last three or four city managers. No. Thank you. Yeah, I would add there that there arevspod does include aspect of community engagement and outreach and that needs to be further articulated but it was an important part of their proposomely specifically asked about various strategies they intend to use. And there will be community engagement component as the vice mayor points out. And again that was was I would assume scored very highly by the Edhawk committee. Let me turn to the city manager. Just add to that, they did say that they would be in touch with council members to get advice on what community groups or individuals need to be included in that. So you will be hearing from the, should this pass this evening, you will be hearing from the search company as they craft that public outreach policy. And the City Manager also informs me that this is the first time back to Mr. Hampton's question. This is the first time we've worked with WBCP. So it's for certain a different company than the last time around Mr. Hampton. Okay. So public comment speakers on item three are Hyrum, Cormier, Jr. Carolyn, Golanie, Camille, Lewis. So we're bringing Hyrum. There's also Sarah, Brittany, and Karina, and and we have a lot of things to do with the community. We have a lot of community. We have a lot of community. We have a lot of community. We have a lot of community. We have a lot of community. We have a lot of community. We have a lot of community. We have a lot of community. looks like a lot of people in that company have some properties leanings it says very little about restri-chats says very little about economic justice etc and so forth that you guys like to pretend to you guys believe in but if that's the case and they have those meanings and if there's actually a former officer or some former officers within that firm, what type of city manager do you think they are going to hide? We need an independent city manager who is going to actually hold police accountable since you guys refuse to do it and by the way you do have the power to do that too. But if that's the case, and then you talk about throughout the hiring process, they're gonna give input to the council and to the community. What kind of community members do you want to hear from? Because when it comes to the public, first of all, I see people within that little box talk to each other and everything. I see people within that little box. Talk to each other and everything. Um, you know, that in itself shows that you guys do not want to hear from people. You limit their time. You mash up all of their public comment. For multiple items, it's a one time slot. It makes no sense. And then you don't even listen to the real constituent, which they really do go through the issues that the city manager has to take charge of that impacts our lives. The people that were related to living Pasadena and those of us who live there ourselves. You don't listen and that's the point. It feels like we're begging our head against the wall when we come to these fucking meetings. That's why a lot of people frankly don't engage in politics as leaders. Mr. Hyram, your time has expired. The time for injustice, fire, fuck that, farm, do not hire. Thank you, Mr. and for the record, Mr. Cormier is incorrect. The firm will not be hiring anybody. It's the City Council who does the hiring. This firm may maybe simply assist us with the logistics of the hiring process, but it's the city council who will do the hiring uh the interviewing and the hiring and i'm told that neither of the principals who are assigned by the firm have ever worked in policing so again in correct point. There i'd also add that we did evaluate the two finalists based off the diversity of the candidate pool. And they provided statistics and this group, frankly, was a standout and majority of their applicant pool was from diverse communities and we thought they had a very robust strategy for filling that pipeline. So I think I carried a lot of weight in our consideration. that pipeline. So I'm carried a lot of weight in our consideration. Carolyn Galoni, followed by Camille Lewis, followed by Sarah. You have a minute. Yeah, this is Carol. Yeah, this is Carol. And I just want to say I know you're saying that they have a diverse strategy and they have the candidates that they select or diverse and they go about this but I would like to believe you, in particularly the Vice Mayor, I would like to, but you haven't proven to have any concern about this. And so that committee that went around picking the agency, I'm just, I have no confidence. And so I like, I really hope that you look at that agency and said, how are they going to ensure different types of diversity? And I want to look at, look at how they lean, how they, where, where they come from, like how are they going after their potential canvas? Because while they don't hire them, they're presenting every candidate that you get. So they need to have a very robust strategy that is creative and that hasn't been heard of before perhaps. And that isn't just like, hey, we checked off a box for doing what everyone says. And yeah, we have a problem in Pasadena. We have a problem. You guys have to admit this. Like, our commonest, Kendrickly Dave, Anthony McClain, like we have a problem. Not but everyone. So we have to do better in higher in the city manager. And I really hope that you guys explain how essential this is. Miss Galloway your time inspired. I have to say I have so many times before. Thank you Miss Galloway. Emil Lewis followed by Sarah, followed by Brittany, Pollock, followed by Karina K, followed by Adriana Batista. Miss Lewis you have... Hello, this can be a Lewis, can you hear me? We can, one minute, 30 seconds, go ahead. Okay, I would like to speak on item number three. We object to this hiring agency for the new city manager of whom the public has never heard of until now has pro police employees and isn't even based in Southern California. Item number nine regarding officer involved shooting killing people on the job is not doing a good job. Miss Lewis, after item number nine, we're going to have separate public comments so please keep it to item three please. Okay, so yeah, what are you guys doing hiring an agency to find a city manager who's pro police? We want justice for Anthony McLean. Your city has a major issue killing black and brown people. This is not okay. Yes, you've hired some like agency to find a city manager who's probably gonna be pro police. And you're probably hiring agency that's not even based in Southern California. It's finding city manager for Pasadena. We want justice for asking you the plane. All of the people that were murdered by Pasadena police, you have a major problem. Not having this median in person is not going to make your problem better. I'll put your drink down. That is so rude. Wow. You know, all of us can drink anything. All of the people that were murdered by the past city of city police. God, you're so smug. Seriously. Your time is expired. Thank you. Anything. It's so successful. Now, if you will stick to item three, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Anything. If you will stick to item three, thank you. Sarah followed by Brittany Pollock followed by Karina K followed by Adrienne Batista followed by Kate McInerney. One man 30 seconds. Go ahead. Yes, hi, hello. I just want to start off by saying thank you for itemizing officer involved shooting at the beginning of the meeting you spoke of several civil rights activists I just want to point out that us community members calling in are also activists we're demanding rights for black and brown residents of Pasadena. If you'll address item three, the contract. I am. I'm trying to say thank you, but okay. Okay. Thank you. So we're calling and demanding justice for Black and Brown residents of Pasadena so just add them a claim in JR's comments. If you really value civil rights, then you'll listen to what we have to say. We demand that you hire a city manager who will prosecute racist killer cops. You constantly state that you cannot fire these cops yourself or you can hire someone who can. If you really value civil rights, think you won't make it okay for officers to kill people and still keep their jobs because if they would dare to come and if you got murdered in front of the children inside his home, those cops are still on the job. If you guys really stand for civil rights, single hire city manager who also does. Thank you, Black Lives Matter. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you. Brittany Pollock, followed by Karina K, followed by Adrienne and Batista, followed by Kate McInerney, that'll complete item three, and we'll have item five as well. Ms. Pollock. You all hear me? Yes, we can. One minute, 30 seconds. Go ahead. Thank you. I'd like to highlight some of the points that other folks have made. And in particular, the first person who spoke to Ram, he was trying to tell you all something, and we can see on the Zoom that you, Mayor, are talking to other people while people are giving public comments. This is so disrespectful. Why do you all even have this time period if you're not gonna attentively listen to what the community has to say? It's like it's for a performance, like most of what you all do. So when people are talking about this firm having pro-police leanings and all we hear is your just objection to that mayor, someone has done their research. Why aren't you listening to that? What is the purpose of public comment other than for the public to comment on these agenda items that you all are voting on? We are telling you that this company that you are trying to hire to, I guess, do your job for you. I don't really know. Has pro police leanings and this is not the avenue that you want to take. And you all are just saying no. No, no, no, what is this for? I'm just like confused and also embarrassed for you all. Like please can we just make some movements in the right direction? We're talking about justice but like what does that mean to you all? I'm really asking you to maybe like reflect on these kinds of questions as everybody comes your time as expired. I appreciate it. Karina K followed by Adriana Batista followed by Kate McAnerney followed by Cynthia Kanati and Carl Selkin on item five. Karina you have one in 30 seconds. My name is Karina Mepasadina resident and a member of Black Lives Matter Los Angeles I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to go ahead. I authorized a contract for $32,000. This is a problematic agency. We have already demanded the firing of the city manager. Why? Because they refused to hold the Pasadena Police Department accountable. You refused to hold the Pasadena Police Department accountable. So we object to another problematic agency who's going to come up with problematic candidates for you all to still not do the job. We'll be calling for their firing as well, because you're not gonna vet them to fire the officers. You're not gonna vet them to bring about justice and accountability for the murder of Anthony McClain. That's the problem here. We don't wanna fit through the same perpetuation of injustice and death of black people in Pasadena. You could do, you could demand this right now. We have no faith that you are going to put a person in there that is going to hold the Pasadena Police Department accountable. You all could do that right now, but instead, you're spending more money on a problematic agency, and you're not going to vest them the way that this city needs to. So all of you all, that's why we object to it. That is my public comment put that for the record and stop saying that people are wrong You're wrong, Dr. Gordo you were you ran on all these promises for public safety and for justice and you ain't doing nothing You're terrible with hell and the rest of the city council is following Miss Karina your time has expired The city manager who is going to kill people accountable not be a face on white supremacy. The next speaker is Adriana Batista. Ms. Batista, welcome. One man, 30 seconds, go ahead. Ms. Batista. We want a city manager who will use their authority to do a thorough admin investigation of all officer-invol involved shootings and fire and discipline officers who are out of policy. Someone who won't use the weak excuse that I'm not a politician like we all remember Steve Murmall saying I'm not a politician when somebody we need somebody who's going to acknowledge that the city managers office while they might technically payroll-speaking be city staff, they hold more power in the city of Pasadena than all of you in city council combined. So yes, this person is political. This position is political. And whoever is hired needs to understand that and understand that that's problematic and work with the community to engage and care for the community and part of that is enacting accountability at PPD. Why? Because the community has been demanding it. Why? Because it could save lives. As we've seen, officers, Matthew, Griffin and Nulon and Gomez have been involved in multiple officer involved shooting murders of innocent black men. Your time has expired. Thank you. Kate McEnerney, followed by Synthene, Kanati, followed by Carl Salkin and looks like we got a couple more speakers on item three Alan Shae and Jasmine Richards of Dula. Miss McInerney, one minute and 30 seconds. Star six, 10 mute. Go ahead. Hi. So clearly there are a lot of issues with your old process on trying to hire this external agency to hire a city manager that, you know, community members don't know about and don't try for good reason. And so rather than doing all that, why not just pay community members Why not just pay community members to, I guess, consult or to advise on not only hiring a city manager because that's kind of like the point like the point is justice and community members have the answer. So hire black and brown community members to consult with rather than throwing money at a bunch of external agencies that are not from Pasadena are not familiar with you know life in Pasadena and to the one they have questionable background and this is a matter of justice that community members know and embody and show up here. It's like we, you know, their own interest. And it said, it's always, oh, we have to hire this and that person when the answers are right here. Thank you. Thank you. We'll bring in Cynthia Kanati followed by Carl Salkin followed by Alan Shea followed by Jasmine of Doola. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening. But maybe there are some. Go ahead. I'm five. Yes. Yes. Go ahead. We can count some members. I'm reading a letter from Martha's Evol. President of the Pasadena League of Lemon Voters. In order to keep to a three minute time limit, I am omitting some sentences from the letter that was delivered to you today. The League of Lemon Voters Pasadena area believes that the source of our energy supply is fundamental to Pasadena's response to the climate crisis. Man, we have the letter. If you want to just address the point rather than read the letter that's... You have one minute and two seconds left in your comments. Excuse me. I'm clear about what I'm being asked to do. The letter is the comment. May I read the excerpts from the letter? Sure. You have one minute and two seconds left. Go ahead. We can have the ED incentives and electrify buildings, but if the energy source is still gas or coal, we are not reducing dangerous greenhouse gas emissions. We note several words from elements about the PWP IRP 2021 update. The plan is only to comply with California State law that 60% of energy source is renewable by 2030. And even that is described in a sensitive manner. There is no mention of any more ambitious plan to achieve 100%, 90% or 70% renewable energy. The update relies heavily on spot purchases which are not identifiable as renewable or possible fuel. Distributed energy solutions such as micro grids and community solar for low income housing schools and other institutions are omitted from the planning. The true social cost of carbon is not taken into account. Further using a discount rate to work on such a disanalysis. Trees. Ms. Good morning. Your time has expired. The tolerable cost of doing business. I'm very disappointed that we weren't given the three full minutes that are supposed to be allotted. We'll call Carl Salkin. Followed by Alan Shea, followed by Jasmine Richards of Dula. Mr. Salkin, one minute, 30 seconds. Go ahead. OK, I try to keep in that timeline. First of all, I want to point out that I do submit a letter to you on behalf of the Social Justice Committee as the New Jewish Temple and Center about item five. And I just like to kind of highlight a few things in that letter. One is the RRP projects a unfortunately too long timeline to accomplish the much needed urgent solutions to the ending of fossil fuel reliance for power. Second, I'd like to point out that the idea for electric energy is related to other issues like affordable housing, jobs, et cetera, that need to be addressed in a comprehensive, integrated fashion, not piecemeal in the silos that are typical of bureaucratic decision-making. And finally, I just want to say that this is an urgent situation. The climate crisis growing exponentially and the small steps to not produce the change that's needed within the short timeline that we have. And we need to not only accommodate what California State is asking us to do, but we will now and will in the future have to accommodate the larger pressures that will come down on us. We should anticipate those and take action now rather than waiting for us to be told what to do. I hope we can join the clean power alliance and further the ends of getting rid of greenhouse gases in our mix of energy. Thank you Mr. Selkid. Alan Shea followed by Jasmine Richards of Dula, followed by Julia R, followed by Heavenly Hughes on item three. Mr. Shea. If you can unmute. I think you need to get his cell phone. There he is. Yes, again. One minute. One minute and 30 seconds. Go ahead. I wanted to get it. Mr. Schae, you seem to have two devices on. Alan, you'll turn one off. Alan, why don't we put you on hold while you turn one device on and we'll come back to you. Jasmine Richards of Dula. Miss Abdullah? She dropped. She dropped. Okay. Julia R. Julia, if you can start 6 to unmute. One minute 30 seconds. Go ahead. Hi. Can you hear me? Yes. We can't go ahead. We would like to continue to uplift what your community members are talking about here. You have an opportunity to bridge a gap between your community members and you. You have no reason to have their trust right now because you have continued to prove that you are not listening to them. This hiring, this hearing of your community's concerns is your job. This is your job. Do not waste this opportunity to bridge a gap here. You have to consider what your community members have said in this meeting because it will continue. Do you understand this? We are now here to let this cycle continue. It has to end. We have to have justice for Anthony McLean and there cannot be a continuation of pro police in your city. It is unbelievable. You have a problem in Pasadena and your community members want to work, they want to fix it. You have a community engaged and proud to be from Pasadena. Julia, your time has expired. Better way of explaining that. Thank you, Bessour. Thank you. Alan Shea. Sorry, heavenly Hughes. Let's try heavenly. Miss Hughes. If you can unmute. Just use your muted. There you go. Can you hear me now? We can. One minute, 30 seconds on item three. Go ahead. Agenda item number three. Will you hire a city manager who will put a box of police violence, Jim Crow tactic and break down the infrastructure of white supremacy within the city of Pasadena? Mayor Gordo, when will you work with the community instead of dismissing and denoting and giving false information to the public comments, callers, and to the community? I recall last time I was here, you said you had taught me several times and that you would call me again. I don't think that you should lie to sit in that position. I would also like to add, will you all include the community, police, oversight committee when choosing the new city manager? Will they have a vote? Will you include the community? And there, in what they are saying, when it comes to hiring a new city manager, since you're a clerk, we ask you to hear our voices today. We have been calling in for over a year about police accountability. We ask you to be sure that it is, that it is the front-life leadership, be sure that it is the front-line leadership that you all want to see. Black lives being protected and served in our community. We want a city manager to take care of it. This use, your time has expired. That's why. I think you must use. Thank you. Thank you. Jasmine Richards of Dula. No, still has disconnected. Let's try Alan Shea. Mr. Shea? Let's Shea go ahead. One minute, 30 seconds. Thank you. Thank you. Good afternoon, Your Honorable Victor Gordo. I just want to share with the city council and everyone who's listening. Every move that this council make is so imperative at this point. And if you fail to consider the voices that are calling on you, it's only gonna darken the marks that we're experiencing now with injustice. I truly believe that Victor Gordo holds in his heart a sense of true justice. He's a man of Pasadena and I really believe that he's going to allow us the right opportunity to select the right city manager. So I would just hope that the council and those that are listening allow that this move forward. So we can put the pass behind this properly. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. That completes public comment on the consent calendar. Okay, so looking at the remainder of the consent calendar, we have a entertained emotion on items one two three and five. Hello Mayor. Mayor. Mr. Hedges. I just had to be responsive to the public commenters we have called about the firms. I understand, I mean this is just a firm so it's not necessarily meaning that we're going to hire exactly what they're saying in the public comments. We ultimately as a city council will make that decision of food and exit manager will be. But I think it may be helpful to have the firm come after they're hired and explain to us what their outreach is going to be as it relates to getting applicants. And then also what the outreach is going to be as a vice mayor mentioned. Their engagement with the community as a whole as well as the council. I think that might be just helpful or even I think that'd be helpful to have them come and just say that and I in a a meeting of the city council or another committee maybe let's fall. I don't know what committee was following but I think that would be helpful. And then to the public speakers that I called in and you know, want to make sure that the council was picking someone who is going to be mindful of people's rights, etc. I think it's important that all of you get together and put a list of good names together and have them apply for the job. I think that would be very helpful versus just tearing down the idea of hiring a firm. No matter what firm we hire, every firm is going to have some sort of connection to law enforcement because a lot of these firms hire police seats. They hire other people within law enforcement. So I think your best bet is to actually work together and figure out some great candidates to make sure that they apply as the next city manager for the city of Pasadena. So Mayor hopefully we can get hold of the coming, you have a suggest a date of how they're out, which is going to be. There is an outreach and community engagement component. So once that's prepared, I'll work with the city manager and staff to make that known and bring it forward either through committee or the council. I think that's a good suggestion so that people are clear and what the process is. Okay, there's a motion and a second roll call for items one two three and five. Do we have a second? Sorry, I know that Mr. Vice Mayor Wilson. Sorry, thank you, Mr. Hampton. So it was moved by Vice Mayor Wilson, seconded by Council Member Hampton. Council Member Hampton. Yeah. Council Member Kennedy. Yeah. Council Member Madison. Yeah. Council Member Misuda. Yeah. Council Member Revis. Yeah. Councilmember Moussouda. Yes. Councilmember Revis. Yes. Councilmember Williams is absent. Vice Mayor Wilson. Yes. Mayor Gordo. Yes. The motion is approved without opposition. Next, this should be a, this is a pretty routine matter. The item eight, the amendment to the 2021, 22 annual action plan. This is the time and place for the public hearing on the substantial amendment to the 2021, 2022 annual action plan on December 30th, 2021, and January 22th, 2022. The public hearing notice was published in the past year in a journal and the past year in a press. No correspondence was received by the City Clerk's Office regarding this item. Colleagues, what's your pleasure? Do we need a presentation? Mayor, can I recommend that we close the public hearing and move. Okay. Move to the substance in matter of approving this. It's been moved to close the public hearing. Are there any public comments? There are not none. Okay. Is there a second? Okay. Second. Second by Mr. Mursuda. Roll call. To close the public hearing. Councillor Marrahampton. Yes. Councillor McK Hampton. Yes. Councilmember Kennedy. Yeah. Councilmember Madison. Yeah. Councilmember Moussouda. Yeah. Councilmember Revis. Yeah. Councilmember Williams is absent. Vice Mayor Wilson. Yeah. Mayor Gordo. Yes. Public hearing is closed. Mayor Gordo, I'd like to recommend that we approve agenda item 8. Okay. Second by Councillor Moussura. Second by Mr. Moussura. Thank you Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Moussura and again this you, Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Moussouda. And again, this is a, this is these are good amendments. The, for those that are interested in the amendments, they're an item two of the staff report. And it's adding money to rental assistance and eviction assistance administrative costs and then also security enhancements, cameras at Robinson LePint and Villa Park. Both the Community Center of Robinson and the Park. So these are, could use of these dollars. There's a motion in a second, rokel. Councillor Arhampton. Yeah. Councillor Archanetti. Yeah. Councillor Aramadpton. Yeah. Councilmember Kennedy. Yeah. Councilmember Madison. Yeah. Councilmember Moussuda. Yes. Councilmember Revis. Yeah. Councilmember Williams is absent. Vice Mayor Wilson. Yeah. Mayor Gordo. Yes. The motion is approved without opposition. Thank you Question yes about item eight really quickly when will the This is for the city manager when will the The update for a lot into rescue park For cameras will that come back to us? Is that kind of gonna come back to us? Is that going to come back to us? Is that already just? I think that this completes the funding, but I certainly would be glad to get a schedule and put it in the weekly letter so that all of the council would know the schedule for a Pinterest account. Okay. Thank you. If that's me. All right. Then we just do it for all. Yeah. Complete schedule. Mayor, if do it for all of the. Yeah. Complete schedule. Mayor, if we could have a complete schedule. For all of the day. That would make. That's what I just. Yeah, I just suggested that to the city manager, Mr. Kennedy, and so we'll have a. Okay. Let's schedule. Thank you. Okay. Next item nine and We're welcome to the chief Yes, Mayor. I would this is Michelle Bonnery city attorney and Along with the city manager staff our staff has put together a presentation that was presented. It's very similar to the presentation that was presented to the public safety committee in October of 2021 regarding police officer involved shooting investigation processes and related policies. So the presentation will be, we'll start off with Chief Assistant City Attorney Javon Rat and he will be joined by Lieutenant Carolyn Gordon and we also have our interim Chief Cheryl Moody who is here and I think she may have some information to add as well. So I think once that's presented, then we can have the public comment in whatever other questions you have from the council. This special meeting in this presentation is intended to be responsive to some of the requests to agendaize matters that the council simply does not have the authority under state law or the charter to do. And I know that some of the people who make the request may not be aware of that. Some of them live in Los Angeles or other parts of Southern California. And I think it's important for all of us to have an opportunity to discuss the limitations. The council does not have all of the authority that sometimes were asked to employ or exercise. And in some cases, it requires a change of the charter. And a change of the charter can be enacted, certainly, can be suggested and requested by members of the public. And then the people of Pasadena, residents of Pasadena would have a vote, up or down whether or not we should change the charter and change the way we operate our local government in the city of Pasadena. Other cities have different models. Los Angeles, for example, has a different charter than our charter giving authority that's different than the authority we have to various agencies within the city. The county has a different charter. And so we have to deal within the limitations and restrictions of the charter. And so why don't we go ahead and start the presentation and then we can explore some of these areas. Thank you. Okay, thank you, Mayor. I'm going to be starting and then turning can explore some of these areas. Thank you. Okay, thank you, Mayor. I'm going to be starting at the turning over to the chief and Lieutenant Gordon for that, and then concluding the presentation. So, Mayor, as you mentioned, the Pasadena as a charter city, there are over 120 charter cities in California, there are actually over 480 cities, but only a little over 120 or charter cities with Pasadena's charter the Pasadena voters have set up What's called a council manager? form of government. So there's a limited number of officials responsible for city administration, city attorney prosecutor, city manager, and city clerk. So as it's relevant here, the council, as the charter sets up and structs the manager on how to set up policies, and then the council also passes ordinances, the approving projects, and also the city's the budget every June. And the city manager is more of the day-to-day decision maker implementing policies, advising the city council on what's going on and making recommendation on things, formulating budget and finally overseeing the administration and management of staff. And that's really relevant to the discussion here. So to summarize some of the Pasadena Charter provisions which actually are found in other city's charters, the council can, they may inquire into administrative matters under the manager and they can instruct the manager in all matters of policy. But the council cannot attempt to influence or direct any subordinates under the city manager. And so with, there's a published court case out of Santa Monica where a council member was asking staff what's going on with the project, what does the applicant need to do for permit just asking, planning staff what's going on with the project. And in that case the court held that the council member in Santa Monica which has charter provisions similar to Pasadena in this area, the council member was only inquiring what was going on, the council member was not instructing. So basically you get kind of a good exposition on What the similar treatment would be for passing again council members can acquire about what's going on But they can't attempt to influence subordinates under the manager so for relevant charter provisions and one municode section, basically the council, the city manager is responsible for supervision and control over city departments. City manager also is responsible for appointing department heads. City manager is responsible for administrative service under him or her. The charter essentially prevents the council from imposing discipline on police options. I'll go into that in a little bit of detail. And the charter can only be amended by past the innovators. So this isn't something the council could deal with. So as it relates to optional involved shootings, a couple of points on this, if the chief of police were to hypothetically find an officer acted within policy after a shooting, the manager would never, the matter would never get to the city manager to decide because the officer would be the end of the discussion. So there's really nothing for the council to even reach out to the manager about it would be within policy at the chief's level. On the other hand, if there were a matter that did get to the city manager, for example, after a disciplinary arbitration, in other words, if the chief were to impose discipline, the officer would appeal that it goes to what's called advisory arbitration, where evidence is put on by both sides and witnesses witnesses and then the arbitrator issues and advisory decision. The manager then would issue his or her final rendering on that. We still don't believe the council has a role under the way the charter set up because we need to give effect to all of the charter provisions and Basically the council intervening in the manager's decision also presents an issue because the Memorandums of understanding with different labor unions including PPOA and others generally provide that the manager Ultimately decides things after disciplinary arbitration. So for that, that sort of explains the second bullet here about the council is prevented from imposing discipline on police officers. This would be practically how that would play out. The other thing is, and Lieutenant Gordon is going to talk about criminal investigations and administrative reviews, but just to give the council a little bit of an overview of the various levels of review that do happen on officer in all shootings. And this isn't sort of something that does happen at Officer Ball shootings already. First out of a criminal investigation after the Police Department detectives deal with it, the LA County District Attorney would review it. California Attorney General might review it. This is some state laws passed in 2020 and 2021, allowing for the age of requiring the age to investigate shootings of unarmed civilians, but where there's a reasonable dispute whether this civilian was unarmed. Generally speaking, the District Attorney's Office, if they clear the officer, they issue a public written report. Attorney General's Office, I think, is also anticipating to do the same. and finally where the US Department of Justice, where a matter is either referred to them, or whether they might investigate on their own, they might take a look at the matter. Independently, in the Lieutenant Gordon's going to talk about this past evening police department, concluding with our rendering by the Chief of Police, we conduct administrative arrangements and Lieutenant Gordon's going to talk about this pastime police department, concluding with our rendering by the chief of police, we conduct an administrative review on the shooting to determine why the officer acted for the policy. And finally, there might be in some instances an independent review of an officer called shooting. For example, with Pasadena, the city is contracted in a past for some independent reviews, and there's also an independent review pending on the option while shooting death of Anthony McClain. And then independently whether it either by the council's request perhaps or even the community oversight police commission, if there were the budget for it, The independent police auditor conceivably might review a shooting not only for the officer's tactics and how the shooting played out itself, but also the department's rendering on the shooting in the administrative review to ensure that it was thorough affair and impartial. So with that, I'm gonna turn it over to Chief Odie and Lieutenant Gordon to discuss the more on the administrative reviews and criminal investigations into the tributes. Yes, Lieutenant Gordon, we'll talk about the policy and the process by which we conduct our officer-involved shooting first. Good evening. Thank you. So what I'm going to walk you through today is about our officer involved shooting and in custody debt. So what happens is an incident occurs and then the watch commander contacts the detective lieutenant, provides some facts and then the lieutenant will contact his team which would involve a sergeant and then more than likely for detectives. They will respond to the scene. When they respond to the scene, they will get a brief as to what occurred on the incident. Also, one of the things that's the responsibility of the sergeant, the sergeant will contact and notify the district attorney's office. Once the detectives are there, they've been briefed. Then there's a walkthrough. They do a walkthrough of the scene. Once they do the walkthrough of the scene, the scene belongs to the detectives. The detectives will ask some questions and make sure that the public safety questions have been answered like how many times the officer fired in what direction those are all public safety. The description of the suspect, description of the car are all the questions the tech does will ask. After they're done they'll walk the DA's through the scene and that's the district attorneys. And when completed the case is submitted to the District Attorney's Office where a prosecutor reviews the case to decide if the officer's actions were justified under criminal law. So we have some new exciting things that are coming in the spring of 22 by Axon, the first is performance. It's a software product that provides analytical analytics of body worn camera use and helps to ensure user accountability. The other thing is the signal sidearm. It wirelessly activates recording on body worn cameras within range. The moment the firearm is removed from the holster. And so this signal sidearm is going to be on the holster. So any time that you remove the weapon from the holster, it's going to activate your body-worn camera. And so those are a couple of the things that we're looking forward to that the police department will have in 2022. Change to the next slide. The next one is the administrative review. And that's the professional standards unit. And so I am and that's the professional standards unit. I am the lieutenant over the professional standards unit. What we do is that after the detectives get on scene, they will notify us. We respond to the scene, we get a small brief, but our briefing comes from the detectives, and then we do a walk-through. We walk through the scene. We look for policy violations, we look for training issues, and we're also risk managers. And so we look for things that we can make better for the next time, or some things that are concerning. And we take notes to those facts. When we're completed, before we get to the completion, we go back to the station. We will later talk with the crimson site. That's the criminal investigation division. And we will find out if the officers gave a statement. If they gave a statement, we'll review the statement when the case is complete. If not, there is something where we call where the officer doesn't give a statement and we will compel the officer to talk. And so that's we will do only the interviews where the officers did not give a statement and we will compel the officer to talk. And so that's we will do only the interviews where the officers did not give a statement because we'd like the information when it's fresh in their mind a few days after the incident occurred. When that's done we complete. The crimson side is complete. They turn it over to us. We view it. If there's additional witnesses or anything that we feel we need to do, then our unit does that. We look at all the evidence, all the interviews, and when we're done, we present that case to the chief of police who will determine if the officer's actions were in conformance with PPD policy and training. And those are the things that are important for the administrative side and I just want it to be clear that the administrative side is different from the crimson thank you Thank you, lieutenant Gordon Couple more slides before finish up so with respect to the chief determining whether the officers actions Were within policy that's basically the point in time of the chief were to impose discipline. That would be that's sort of a critical time period for what's called the peace officers, bill of rights, or public safety officers, procedural bill of rights. Basically for law enforcement, they must notify the officer within one year of discovery of the policy violation in order to impose discipline. The Peace Officer Bill of Rights offers several instances where that limitation period can be told or extended out a couple of those instances allowing for tolling of the limitation period are provided here. Again, it's not required, but the limit, the department wait until the end of the tolling period, but a department can. And a couple opportunities for department to take advantage of tolling are whether the officers actions are the subject of criminal investigation or prosecution, or if the matters in litigation, in civil litigation, and the officer is defendant in that matter. So in terms of sort of this agenda item and the question of the council's ability to impose a deadline on the department to conduct administrative reviews. That's the personnel reviews that Lieutenant Gordon talked about. We believe the charter, which expresses the council manager for my government, prevents such a policy because it's a personnel matter and it's under the administrative service of the city manager. And in terms of reading, passing this charter to try to give effect to as much of the charter as possible, we believe that the council could not necessarily impose a deadline for the department to complete the reviews. However, the council might wish to consider policies to recommend or changes in policy and to recommend those to the city manager. So I think there's still area for discussion and area for the manager to consider with the chief in this area. In terms of thinking about it sort of on a more practical level, these are some reasons sort of on why thinking about things on a case-by-case assessment for whether to complete a review might be better than just imposing a hard-stop policy or either to say accelerate all reviews or in the alternative to take advantage of tolling on your piece of civil rights under every circumstance. First, if the department worked to complete the administrative review within a specified time period in terms of matter of weeks, months, whatnot. There might be information from related investigations or proceedings that the department wouldn't have access to. And once the chief renders, the chief has rendered. With that being said, there might be circumstances where there's a serious policy violation and where the department's confident enough in that, that the department might not need additional evidence to develop. And one example of that is last year there was the Long Beach School District Police Officer that was terminated before being charged by the District Attorney's Office, but about three weeks after the officer was terminated, the officer was the school district officer was charged by the District Attorney's Office. But again, that's an instance where the school district had confidence that there was a serious violation of policy and they did move to terminate the officer. In terms of deferring completion of the administrative review until certain periods, there's some arguments for that because if the department were to wait until the district attorney's office completes its criminal investigation, again, that doesn't have to happen every time, but in most instances, that might be the best practice to consider because professional standards might be informed by what the DA does, not only with what the DA investigates, but particularly over the last 10 years or so, the district attorney's offices put out very detailed public reports when officers are cleared and necessarily of charges are filed, then the internal affairs can benefit from the language and a criminal complaint against the officer. If the department would have rendered before that, they wouldn't get to see that type of work product from the district attorney's office. In addition, if the department were to wait until civil litigation were to conclude, internal affairs would be informed by what the officer testified to in deposition and a trial, and if the officer, for example, testified consistently or inconsistent with his or her statements the night of or after the incident, like Lieutenant Gordon talked about one way or another, there would be their voluntary statement or perhaps a compelled statement shortly after the instant. There would be a definition test, my entrial testimony, to benchmark on that initial statement and the department could review for consistency along those lines. So with that, I think that completes our presentation, Mayor, and we're going to look at the questions. Thank you. Questions, comments, remember the council? Ms. Revis, followed by Mr. Kennedy, and then vice versa. Thank you. Oh, sorry. Thank you so much, Mayor. I wanted to start by thinking council member Hanson for asking this matter to be heard at Public Safety and now before the full council. I think it's really important that the council and the both the Council and the public here and understand these processes and really have a clear understanding of what the different duties are between the Council and the City Manager. And these processes are really long and drawn out. And it's definitely one of my big frustrations as a council member. This weekend I just took a look at the district attorney's office website, which were all the, the Jace blood or SARS, which are the determinations on officer involved shootings. And looking at the ones that came out most recently, most recently the last couple months, I saw that they came out anywhere from a year to over four years after the incident. It was a lot, a pretty big amount of time. So I absolutely see the value of the department and the city manager staff waiting for that jason letter. We just have to acknowledge where in the reality we are in we're taking years for that to come out. So my initial question for staff and I think I'd like to hear from a police department, the attorney city manager, you know, whoever wants to chime in. Do you ever think there should be an upper limit? Clearly we think waiting several years is in the city's interest, but there's got to be a point where maybe we need to move on and move forward with our own administrative process. Can't wait to implement a matter of time, I guess, ten years is maybe two-filly. And I'm sure you're going to say it's a case by case basis, but I just love to hear your thoughts on what do we do when they these Investigations are that drawn out we're talking about four or five plus years If I may Councilman or Councilman of Revis So like you said is the case by case basis and like Devon rat mentioned if there's something that we see immediate, we normally won't wait for the city, the district attorney's letter. If we see that we need to take action immediately, there's a clear violation of the law, then we will do that. We won't wait for a clearance letter. But what we found is the district attorney's letter is another arm of the criminal investigation. So if we jump ahead too soon, we may miss something. We may miss some statements that they made to the district attorney's office. So that is why we wait. I don't think we've had one to go as far as 10 years, but I don't project that we will. Yeah, just so that out as the extreme example, I appreciate your perspective. I totally understand that they need to wait and have all the information available. I get that. I don't know if the City Attorney or the City Manager want to chime in. I have one more question. I would just note that, as you mentioned, of necessity is on a case-by-case basis. And if we do get to a situation where it's taking several years, we look at all of the facts and it may be appropriate to do something sooner than whatever's going on. So I think the key is kind of like you know it when you see it. When it's too long from a multiple purpose perspective in terms of the factors that Mr. Rad mentioned, then that's when it would be appropriate to do something, but it depends on the particular case. Understood. So this is something that's constantly under consideration with each case that is as it move along. Correct. I don't know a council member if I can. Sorry. I don't know that I can add anything of real value. I think it's both the community and the officers are not well served when it drags on and on. I don't think there are a lot of cases that go four years, but just looking at what I've seen at the DA's office over a year is pretty typical. That doesn't make it right, it's just really typical. And I would hope at some point the entire system can be looked at, not just one city, and there be some parameters placed on the DA as to how long they have to respond. Because there are a lot of people waiting for answers, not just in Pasadena, but other places and it's really unfair as I say to both the officer and the community in my mind. Yeah, it's just incredibly frustrating. So thank you for that. I had one more question that I believe is best directed to the city attorney. Charter section 604, which addresses the city manager's powers and duties. The last section, subsection J, talks about the council's ability to review any action by the city manager. And I've seen folks point to that section that's giving the council powers review even personnel decisions I was wondering if the city attorney could kind of clarify speak to that section specifically in the context of this conversation. Sure and council member Reva I had tried to flesh that out on one of the bullets and I'll call out a few of the other charter sections. I was, I didn't cite them by number, but sort of in summary, one charter section 409 talks about who the council can appoint and it lists the manager, the city attorney, the prosecutor and the clerk. It doesn't list any other, any other staff that would be appointed. Another charter section for Levin says council shall deal with administrative service under the city manager solely through the city manager. And then the charter section, you mentioned, six up or j does talk about sort of calling up decisions by the manager. But the problem with that is if a personnel matter can be called up just to sort of try to understand the charter, then it kind of takes out the value of the charter section that says really the council's a point higher and fire goes beyond the four folks specified in another charter section. and it also seems to subvert administrative service. Additionally, as practical matter, it seems to me that most manager decisions that the council might talk about are decisions not that an officer acted outside of policy and should have their job back, but it's where the chief might render shooting within policy. And so in those instances, nothing would be with the manager to even decide because it would be the chief that would have rendered the officer within policy and that's not something that we believe continues to get called up. So at some level, no matter how you slice it, it becomes difficult for the council to get a handle on the things that at least there may be interest in. The way the charter reads, we don't read it as something that it allows the council to act on. And the final point would be that even if we could get past the charter then there's the question of what about the bargaining unit agreements that say that the manager decides and so how do we reconcile the council calling up something that the city's already agreed that the manager gets to decide. Great. Yeah, thank you for that. I know reading that one section alone is not, you know, it reads very broadly and so I appreciate hearing your perspective and or hearing the interpretation which I agree with. I'd have heard your interpretation of the charter, but it also makes a lot of sense that, you know, reading as a whole, you'd have to read it in that way, so I appreciate you explaining that. Those are all my questions for right now, Mayor. Thank you. Thank you. Vice Mayor Wolson. Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Kennedy was next. No. Yeah, I think Mr. Kennedy was next. I think Mr. Kennedy was next. Go ahead. Andy, I think John took himself out of the queue. Did John fool himself out? I had a few questions as well. I was confused about in your presentation. And once again, we have a slightly different version in our Winder than what you share to the page numbering may be wrong But it says I think and I resist page three council may instruct city manager and all matters of policy You see that on another three in presentation you show It's the same page. Council Member Wilson, yes. The only difference from what we put up this evening was just one additional slide about various bodies might review, which is slide five, but other than that, the presentation that was posted with the gender packet is the same. So slide three does talk about the council may inquire and may instruct, but they may not attempt to influence or direct any subordinates of the manager. Yeah, but the statement before that is instructs may instruct city manager and all matters of policy and then I'm on page nine, which I'm guessing you added a page is now page 10, which is City of Council Dolly who imposed deadline on DVD to complete and minister to review. And Council manager for a government establish and try to prevent such council adopted policy. So this is- Okay, I see what you're saying, Vice Mayor Wilson. So with the second slide, that's a more general attempt to summarize the Council manager for a government and not to quote Pasadena's charter specifically to, but to speak more, to speak more generally. And I think other than this kind of a unique example of the question of can the council set a deadline on the completion of administrative reviews of officer involved shootings, there's any number of other things that do come to the council as a matter of policy where the council might be able to instruct on this just happens to be one of those territories that other provisions of the charter prevent the council from acting in that regard. So the distinction is because it's personnel. It's a personnel, it's not about a specific person. It's a personnel policy. And your saying that output cannot impose policy that relates to personnel separate from individual actions against named discrete individuals. Is that what you're saying? I think even in the generic sense, it would be a type of rule that would take away the authority of the chief to act within his or her discretion like chief Moody was talking about in terms of, to do the question from Council Member Heavis, how long do you wait or how long is reasonable and that would be something that takes away the chief's discretion and here with the council dealing with administrative service and basically just let the manager deal with administrative service. That's essentially what the charter says. We believe that a council imposing a policy even though it's a general broad matter and not an individual Personnel matter as you indicate vice mayor I I still think because that would be taking away the chief's authority To set policy. I think that would still present an issue under the charter and the city manager Which is different than us to say, you know We're gonna set a policy that building permits expire in two years, for instance. Right? We could set a line in. Yes. So, then I wanted to go to the scenario and I apologize if I can't from the specifics, but there was an incident where, but I think it was last year, I believe it was last year, you're going to have a go where there was somebody who had a car who, I think was ex-military and sort of shooting at the police officers and the police killed him. I mean, it was very clear black and white if you know the person was in a gunfight. Can you remind us what happened in terms of that process, in terms of DAX and administrative review? I don't know that the I believe that was May of 2020, and I'm looking at the chief I believe that was May of 2020 and I don't believe that the DA has even come back on that one. That is correct. We have not received the DA's letter. So the administrative review has not been done on that case. So I mean, I know we're here to ask questions, but I feel like there is a spectrum of outcomes and I'm no expert in these things. But it's hard to imagine that that type of scenario was not justified. And you know it feels. Not like you know we're doing no one any service leading this administrative matter open when I believe our police officers were you know. At every right responsibility of the public and against a dangerous assailant who was actively shooting a police officers. So which is different than, I'm going to go along the scenario where that council took action, or I think it was actually a school body if I was school board. School district, yes. Because it was very much something that they didn't feel like they needed to, to, to wait. I feel like we have taken a position that we always wait. And my feeling is that there's kind of extremes where we're not doing the officer or the public any service. If there's some question and maybe that's true in a specific matter. Then we do want to wait. So I'm just playing out maybe a pathway to some guidance here where right now we always wait, which I'm not sure is, you know, that's a very universal standard. And when the officers in the public are waiting for rendering for rendering. You know, we have two scenarios that I just mentioned where the outcome was pretty clear and action was taken. So I leave that more as a thought for my colleagues and maybe be helpful to achieve in terms of parsing it through how to handle some of these situations. Vice Mayor Wilson, let me just clarify. You're not suggesting that the council take action. In Long Beach it was the school board who took action. Of course, school board are governed by the California Education Code. They actually handle discipline directly. Unlike, so what you're suggesting is that the police chief and the police department Looked by guidance. I think we're able to provide guidance I understand so we can provide guidance there were you know to the chief that we think it's appropriate where The there's little ambiguity that the actions were appropriate and that They complete the administrative review not dependent upon the DA where you know I know I think it's pretty clear that in the cases, you know, the scenario where the active shooter was firing at our police officers that that was certainly justified. In other cases where we're, it's not obvious and maybe we think it was clearly a heinous act. And it was maybe bad judgment that the police chief not be subject to waiting. Right now, the gating factor is the DA. That's what I'm hearing all of the time. The DA, the DA, which one year, three or four year. And I feel like the DA's opinion is super important. Maybe where there's some ambiguity. So I'm going to that area where we're able to I think it was Sevan statement on page three Inquire of the manager provides some guidance to the manager of How they may address certain situations so that's kind of for thought, maybe for a little later in the conversation. Thank you, Councilmember, Vice Mayor Wilson. You know, we don't always wait for the clearance letter, but in this particular situation, like you said, there was no ambiguity, so there was no rush to settle this. There was no outcry from the officers or from the families or anything like that. So in this particular instance, we just went by our standard pass practice, which is to wait. But again, that's open for discussion if that's what the city manager wants to do. Yes, thank you. Anyway, I think that it seems like we always wait as far as I thought I heard. We do. For the most part. We wait. And I'm wondering whether that is very kind of too generic and whether there's some sort of different scenarios that should be handled and maybe without waiting or waiting until or until or until. So I think I want to get through my questions. We can pick that up a little later. Sure. and tone and tone. So I think I want to get through my questions. We can pick that up a little later. Okay. Go ahead and proceed. I or the city manager I think had a comment. I would just say that I understand what you're saying by smare. We'll look at that. I don't know how many are pending but certainly we have no objection to going back and saying, are we waiting on too many? And the chief and I'll talk and see what are the pros and cons of not changing that. Thank you. Mr. Kennedy? I want to thank Councilmember Hampton for his doggedness and making sure that we have a discussion as the city council level about these issues. And certainly there's a lot of ink and interest in the community of just really understanding what are the meats and bounds, what the council, city attorney, city managers, city police chief must operate under. And hopefully this discussion will give greater clarity, even if it does not find the satisfaction that members of the community would like. Before I get started with my comments, I'd like to know, as a relates the officer involved in shooting at took place on a dinner? Was there a DA clearance letter on that particular shooting? That shooting would have taken place within the last three years for our officers who were in pursuit and were fired? That was at Los Robles, Sanadena. Correct. The 10, it was 10, 20 block of Los Robles, and Adena. Right. Yeah, I do remember that case, not do believe we received the clearance letter because we looked at that. We did the administrative review of that case. It's been completed. And since the question was asked related to the officer involved shooting at this place at Allen in the freeway where our officers were fired upon by former law enforcement, former military personnel who had tremendous amount of ammo in the car and several weapons. Why is it that we have not received a DA clearance letter on that particular matter? I can't answer why the DA hasn't responded or given us their review, but I do know that we had, of course, several officers there, our training officer, our training sergeant did review that for training issues. Even though we didn't do a full audit administrative review, we didn't want to take a look at it. Just because so many rounds were fired, we didn't do it like you said. We didn't do the official review, but we did take a look at the training and the tactics involved in that situation. And this is Michelle Bonaree. I was just going to note, as the interim chief mentioned, we don't know why. We do understand that there are many, many files in the DA's office that they are looking at and researching and spending a lot of time on. So it's not just Pasadena. It involves all the jurisdictions in the county, all the 88 cities and law enforcement agencies. And I would also note that while staff here may recall what happened with a particular instance, I note that we were discussing it as a policy, or the policies and the general procedures that are followed. So staff may not have at the top of their head a particular result and a particular matter as we're trying to look at that broader base, the policies and the procedures. Thank you. Okay, then I'll stick to a different line of question. Did passing the police department finish an internal administrative investigation on the particular shooting that at Byte's Mayor Wilson Ray. So if that's the Allen and Corson shooting, no we did not do, we did not do an official administrative review, but again, we looked at the tactics and training as a result, but not officially. In your research, Javad, did you find any city in the county of Los Angeles that rendered and administrative reviews without the district attorney coming back with its findings first? Council Member Kennedy, I think it- Not including educational, not including jurisdictions that are governed under the educational code of the state of California. And Council Member Kennedy, I think you're asking is do other cities have a practice of rendering an X amount of time regardless of whether the district attorney's office has come back or not. Something like. Specifically asking in your research, did you find any example where a jurisdiction in the police agency? Councilmember Kennedy, I think actually without getting into specifics, Pasadena PD has done that in specific instances where warranted. It would be personnel matter so we can't talk about them individually here, but there have been instances in Pasadena, I believe, where they have come back without a finding on a personnel front. Lieutenant Gordon did pull some other agencies just as a general proposition. Do they accelerate their reviews or not? I guess Lieutenant Gordon might be able to give a little explanation on her finding. I did. I spoke to at least five different agencies and all which told all of their cases until they received the letter from the district attorney's office. If I may add to Council Member Kennedy, I check with the cops office and they're saying that some agency placed time limits on their investigations but such restrictions can potentially impose an obstacle to completion of a full and accurate investigation. Okay. Does the city of Pasadena meaning the Pasadena Police Department have the latitude to complete an internal administrative review of an officer involved shooting prior to the district attorney. So, Councilmember Kennedy, that goes towards the issue of the Peace Officer Billorites, the bottom line is that there's nothing preventing the department from completing the review early in terms of within the policy. However, the challenge is if something later comes in, it would be difficult for the department to say, we just discovered it if the department knows another entity is already looking at it. So from an employment standpoint, once the department renders, they've rendered, and that's kind of the challenge for chiefs in the sense of how do they wait till they get everything important but also like council member Rivas mentioned. You know, at some point too long could be too long. But truly the problem is is that the department can't render subject to more information coming in from an investigation that's known to be pending because an officer might argue the department knew that investigation was pending and they could have awaited the completion of that investigation which if it were looked at by the DA it would have either yielded A a clearance letter or B criminal charges which would further inform the department. Mr. Kennedy, the distinction that Mr. Rad is drawing is once an agency acts, and if the statute is not told, we take that action within a year. And then, you know, it's one thing, if it's a new incident versus information that maybe our investigation, because we rushed it, did not uncover or fail to uncover. That was in the hands of another agency possibly. But once the police department has acted, the statute then is perfected, if you will. And we would be hard pressed to come back. Unless again, it's a new incident involving the same facts and circumstances but otherwise we will have been determined the argument will be Office will argue to have acted and That creates a very difficult situation for police chief and the police department In the city and then out light relates to rulemaking. I think I'm very clear about the process that was outlined by the deputy chief attorney and also, or chief deputy attorney, hope I get it right one of the other. And Lieutenant Gordon in our interim police chief, but does the city manager have the authority to review actual policy in the police department and make recommendations to the police chief in his or her rulemaking capacity, meaning standard operating or FOP or some special orders or executive orders that exist and are promulgated from the police chief directly. Councilman Recchentity, I'm not aware of anything in the charter that would prevent that type of dialogue and instruction from the manager. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. We have a number of, or are you finished, Mr. Kennedy? Yeah, we have a number of public commenters, but before we turn to public comment, let's turn to Mr. Hampton. Thank you for the presentation everyone. Thank you to my colleagues for multiple questions as it comes to this. I have a question. And I may have asked this question I'm going to take you. So I apologize if you guys have been over a period. Are passing and police officers employees of the event? Councilmember Hampton, yes. Okay. The city manager is ultimately in charge of pretty much all city employees outside of the city attorney's office. City court's office. Yes. And as you mentioned to Councilmember Timothy and his last question, the city manager would have. In any department, the say or discussions about employment matters with any of their direct report. With their direct reports yes but as the system is set up in Pasadena the department heads deal with their own individual departments so to your question just as the department heads yes. Yes. Yeah, but if the city manager suggested that the police department needs to or not a police department, but water and power any department needs to do a thorough investigation of a employee that would have to happen, correct? I mean, that would be something I think the department heads may wish to certainly consider. They may wish to consider, or maybe. That would be something that it would happen, Council member Hampton. Okay, so that's where my question is going. So as a policy discussion, and this is, for any city employee, right? Let me ask you this question, or to the city manager, or whoever wants to ask you the question, do city employees have to be considered criminals to be fired? be considered criminals to be fired? No, there are times when there are other actions that are severe enough. I think what I'd like to add though is that the city manager, at least in my mind, should not pull out individuals and say there should be an investigation on them. The city manager should set her own policies as to what actions would require that someone in the department be investigated. We are very, very careful to not have human resources policies that apply based on the person. It can become very discriminatory. We have policies based on what people do and anyone who is in that class that does that behavior. Those are not probably the best words, but it applies to everyone. So I can't imagine any city manager saying I want you to investigate investigate John. City manager would say if anyone does, if anyone doesn't show up to work for a week, I want you to investigate all of those people that take that action. Right, okay, that's fair. I appreciate that. I didn't mean to say that you're pointing out individual employees. But I did just want to, you know, let or get some idea of if you had that authority, which I know that you do. So I just wanted it to be in the public record because I don't think that public safety, this question was asked previously. I did ask a question of the previous city manager have employees been fired without a criminal investigation and the answer was yes. So it goes back to my original question are police officers and employees of the city of Pasadena. I think we should treat them like employees of the city of Pasadena and not some, like employees of the city of Argentina and not some, like there's some extra work that we do. If there's personal applications that need to be complete for us to know if this person should be in our employee in general, then those should be done in timely fashion. I think that waiting is not ideal. It's not really not good for any employee, and it's not good for the public as well. So, and it brings me to the December meeting of, you guys hear me, I'm sorry, I don't know if I just broke out. Okay, it brings me to the December meeting of the police officers? I'm sorry. I don't know if I just broke out. Okay. It brings me to the simmer meeting of the police officers. I'm sorry. The oversight committee. As our IFA just took a job somewhere else. I actually be at a He was exiting. He said that he didn't think that waiting. And this was in the medium in DecemberPA, and I'm sure that IPA may come up with the same, may not come up with the same findings, but I just thought that was interesting that our police department in most of these cases we wait for the DA to render before we do our job, not the DA's job, but because these are city-apacity employees that we do our piece of it prior to anything that the DA has to do. Because if our officers or city-employees is out of policy, I don't think it is in the best interest of the city or that employees to leave them on in employment while we're waiting for the DA to figure out if this person is a criminal or not. And let me ask this question, Javon. So let's say we clear someone and say that, oh, you're up to policy or five. And the DA turns around and says, we're going to file criminal charges on them. What would happen? Would the city have the right to say, okay, well, you have criminal charges following you? We may have to do, or I'm saying, let me see the maintenance following you, but you have been charged criminally. Are you telling me that now we can no longer say that we have to let this employee go, or would they spend time in jail as they are still in our employee. Councilmember Hammond and I think oh I'm sorry. I'm just asking that that question makes sense. And your question makes sense and I believe I believe I can answer it. So what Lieutenant Gordon talked about is when there's an officer involved shooting, the DA's office comes out the night of the shooting. So it's known to the department that there's going to be a criminal investigation that will reach the DA's office after detectives complete their investigation. So if the DA's office later comes out and files charges relating to that shooting, it's a known fact that the DA is either going to clear the officer or file charges. And I think different council members have brought up different instances where there may be perhaps a greater likelihood of clearance or greater likelihood of charges being filed. But the bottom line is it's known from the night of the shooting that the DA's office is investigating. So if the department chooses to clear the officer, then it's done and completed and it's not something that could be held open. So it's known, so it's not like something's newly discovered that the DA was looking into it. They were there the night of the shooting to get whatever intel they could just with boots on the ground. And then when they get the product from detectives, they work it up. I get the council's concern that it may take some time, but the bottom line is that it being known to the department to render and clear the officer, and then if their charges are filed, then that's where the department's hands are tied, and that's sort of the one of the concerns with accelerating review just as a matter of course. Well, I think that is, are these? I'm sorry, Councillor Hampton. I think the chief had something to add as well. I'm sorry, Councillor Hampton. You all. But just to piggyback on Javance's answer, there are policies that regular, if someone gets arrested. So if an officer gets arrested for a misdemeanor or felony, that's a whole different category. So if the DA comes forward and says we're going to press charges, then that's a different allegation for us. Or if they're incarcerated and counted for a torture, that becomes a different allegation. If they are prosecuted, found guilty of a felony, then they can no longer or certain misdemeanors, then they can no longer or certain misdemeanors than they can no longer be an officer because they can't carry away. And so, yeah, different different churches. Thank you, thank you Mayor and thank you Chief and Javon for answering those questions. I appreciate those answers for the question because that makes the point that I'm trying to make is That there are city there are employees They are our city employees and that we have policies in place and we don't need to wait for the DA to Clear a person to see if they should be in our employees I mean you guys just argue the point that even if we clear someone later down the road, and four years later, the DA comes back and says, oh, and on which you're going to charge them criminally in this case, then we can then terminate or whatever the police department decides is in the best interest of their department in the city. So back to the point is we need to finish our invest and this is the policy discussion that I'm talking about. So we should have a policy not for all just offices but any employees that we should finish our personnel investigations within six to nine months. It shouldn't take any longer. I mean, in this case, we're talking about one, I mean, we're talking about, in the opposite case, there's video evidence in most cases to look at and see, okay, is this up to our standards? Is this our, you know, is this the proper training, etc.? You can go down the list and figure out, okay, we should clear this officer or not. Just like the police chief cleared the officers a year later, I don't even know if those, let me ask you, a year later or two, you might have been two years later for the offices that were involved in the Chris from Blue, matter. If I may add- If you made a statement, I'm only bringing this out because that was that there was a statement made about that. I understand. And then, you know, the administrative investigation is to look at policy and procedure of violations, training issues. So it, it, it, it depends on the, it depends on the violation. It depends on the policy violation and the egregiousness of it to determine whether or not that employee will be terminated. So that's why an investigation is done into the policy violation side of the house. I appreciate that if the word egregious is is a interesting word. I'm voice. Do you think is egregious to shoot someone in the back as they run down the street? No sir I don't believe that I do look at the circumstances of each situation. I'm just saying you give us the word, egregious. I'm only asking the question. I don't know what is egregious enough for any employee to be given a proper administrative review. I don't know why we're waiting for the DA. Maybe the question is, maybe we should have, maybe we to ask the police chief to work with the other police chiefs and other city councils to persuade the DA that they need to move quicker that to keep more resources. You know, no, they're just a point of order. Could we please? The chief was in the middle of answering a question and she was cut off. And I don't know if she completed her answer or not, but if we're gonna ask questions, we should hear the full answer. That, I just wanted to add the one thing, Mr. Hampton, that someone shooting someone feloniously in the back, that's a crime. That goes beyond a policy violation. That person, that's what the DA determines. Is this a felony or not? Is this a felonious act? Is well beyond a policy violation? That's the only thing I wanted to add. Oh, thank you. I guess the question is, if you witnessed an officer and a video, et cetera, or a city employee, this is, you know, this is even to the city manager who could answer this question. Doing something that is a greacher's, would we finish a personnel investigation or wait for the DA to let us know if that person was a criminal or not? Anything about it? And currently, we've been not. Anything about an inquiry? Who fails to comply? No, I'm just saying that the transfer driver gets out of his truck. It's on video because trash with drivers have videos on their trucks. And beats up a resident. Is that agreed just enough to say, you know what we got to terminate the transfer driver? Or do we have the way for the DA and let the stress or experiment go up as you begin your new job? Until we figure out if he's going to be filed with criminal trust. But wouldn't we want to investigate all of the facts? I mean if the stress or government gets out of his car and beats up a citizen I'm asking I'm not I'm not asking you on councilman Madison. I'm asking the city manager Because remember we we don't have the ability to to fire a hire So to the city manager of a trustee driver got out of this truck And just beat down a citizen for no apparent reason. When you think we would have to wait for the DA to render criminal charges on the trust regarding before you make a determination of this trust regarding should be terminated or not. I would think we would need to go through the process of what happened and review it. And if there was tapes, review that. There are, with a truck driver, there are MOUs and other things that would be looked at. I'd think that we would have much more control over that because I don't think we'd need to wait for a third party and we would come to a conclusion that most likely would be to fire the truck driver. But I suppose we could say that the person pulled a gun and shot the truck driver's tires out and when we were dumped the investigation he was terrified or she was terrified. I don't know. But again, there's a process regardless. I don't like this process that has to do with police involved shooting. It is possibly by design this complex because we give people guns to do their work and it gets really complex when they have to use those guns in enforcement. And so as I think the city attorney and the deputy city attorney have said so clearly, we ask for outside guidance in this case and that's the process we pick. I'm probably rambling now. In any case, regardless of how obvious it might be, there would be a process that would be involved, that we would go through before we would do any firing of any employee that works for city opacity. Even in the scenario that you highlight Mr. Hampton, the city manager. This is all hypothetical. We don't have to go out. The city manager would not have the authority to step in and fire someone. They would eat that individual that you, it's the department head who would conduct an investigation. And then under the law, provide them with pre-disciplinary opportunity to be heard and give their side of the story. At that point, if the employee, yeah, if the employee disagrees, then they can appeal it to the city manager. That's the point where we're arrived. I appreciate you answering, but at the end of the day, we have no peer view over employment matters. So I think my answer should only be coming from the city manager and staff. I do appreciate you chiming in though. Thank you. In the embezzlement case, did we wait for them puzzler to be convicted before we fired them? Or do we leave him on payroll? Councillor Mejantan, this is Javan. I believe Danny Wooten had left employment of the city several months before he was charged and I think he had left for reasons unrelated to the embezzlement. and left for reasons unrelated to the embezzlement. Okay. And then the police chief, I have to ask just my final question. If officer, this is just hypothetical. If the officer was drunk in fled from, I guess, to take what is it called, another officer trying to arrest him while while off duty officer being off duty Pasadena police officer being off duty fled from another officer Would that officer would that cost because for hiring if officers Door driving or and then ran from the police officer I Think it's like the city manager saying what the attorneys are saying. All of the facts, you have to look at all the facts of the case. No, I'm asking a question in your, is that part of, if I'm a police officer, right? And I was drunk driving, and I get pulled over by another law enforcement agency, and I jump out of my car, and I run. I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why I think that's why and what you're saying. And there are policies that dictate criminal activity, but not all, unfortunately, or terminations. Okay, but you said that that is a crime. It is a crime to run from a police officer, yes. Okay, and if I'm a police officer, or I'm from a police officer, would you say that because that is a crime, do we keep officers employed that have committed crimes? I don't think that's a great question. Do we keep officers employed in Palestine and they have committed crimes? It depends on the totality of the situation. There are people that have, we've had people that have been involved in criminal activity that didn't result in termination and it was based on the totality of the circumstances and they went through the criminal justice system as well. Well those are just my questions. Ultimately it is, it comes down to the city manager. And the city manager could say, they stole a policy that we should move for with any investigation of an employee within six to nine months. If the city manager so chooses to do so. As a policy maker and as someone who evaluates city manager, I think that this should be a part of the city managers evaluation when it comes to employment of our managing their job and managing their employees and so I Think that that should be looked at as the council as a whole. We should look at a you know, are we? doing these things in the best interest of the city, the community, actually the community first, the city and then public safety. So I thank everybody for giving me this extra time to ask these questions, but I think at the end of the day, we need to not wait and we need to do our job and do our investigation because these are our policies and our procedures, not the DA's. When you say our, do you mean the city staff? Not the city council, yeah. Not the city council, yeah. Not meaning me, Tyrone Ham meeting me I'm saying the city of passes. I just don't want to make sure we have a clear record for those listening to the public. You're not suggesting the city council can or should take these matters up directly. Okay. Let's see Mr Mr. Madison, followed by vice mayor Wilson. Thanks mayor. I just I think this discussion, you know, hopefully has revealed that, you know, there, there is a very complex overlay of numerous legal processes that unfold when we have an officer involved shooting. And my view is the staff has presented really an eminently reasonable approach to, you know, balance all of the competing interests here. The desire to make the right decision, not just a quick decision. The legal rights of all of the stakeholders, and it's certainly not a perfect system. And I, for one, if I could change one thing, it would be that the DA would be more expeditious in a thorough comprehensive review of all of the evidence. And I agree with whoever it was that said that we should all want that. But again, not a, you know, sort of a slip shot, you know, Korea job, but a comprehensive thorough review, putting enough resources into the matter to do a thorough comprehensive review. But again, if one looks at this five or six or eight different legal tracks, criminal investigation of the underlying offense that may have led to the police content. Potential criminal investigation by the DA, by a police department, the internal affairs employment of potential federal investigation, civil litigation brought by the individual that was involved or his or her family members. And they each have different rules that are weakled in nature. This just isn't something that we could say I want it right now. So I think staff balances all those interests well. And it's a good discussion to have from time to time, but I don't see us making any meaningful change to any policy. And I understand that that's frustrating in certain cases. But I think the importance for all involved is getting this right, that way is the need to get it quick. Thank you. Right? Outweighs, you know, the need to get it quick. Thank you. Be quick, but don't hurry. As John Wooden would say. I wouldn't want on my favorite. Yeah. We have over 23 cards submitted. Mr. Wilson, vice mayor Wilson's next. Yeah, I have two quick clarification questions based off Council member Mayor Wilson's text. I have two quick clarification questions based off. Council Member Hanson's questioning. I just want to clarify with you guys, not in public safety, so this is first time review for some of us, and I think it's super important that we understand what's happening here. The public understand it, so obviously we heard hundreds and hundreds of comments over the public understand it. So, obviously we heard hundreds and hundreds of comments over the months and months. So, it's a bit tedious at times. Is the DA's review criminal looking for criminal violations only or does it look at any policy aspects as well? Is it kind of, did they break the law? Did they look at, did they comply with our policy? Can someone answer that question to understand the nature of the review? Sure, Council Member Olsen, this is Javan. The District Attorney's Office looks at whether the shooting was justified under California law. And the penal code section, the DA's office would look at would be, there's actually something that was amended within the last couple of years as well, but the bottom line is, it's to just answer, was it justified? Did the officer commit a crime? That's the question the DA looks at. If it's a no, a clearance letter issues, if it's a yes, criminal charges would follow. The department independently looks at whether the officer followed policy. Pasadena Police Department of Policies, the DA would not necessarily look to policies to see whether the penal code standard was met. So there are really two separate reviews looking at two separate things. Now with that being said, some of the verbiage, some of the discussion, and some of the interpretations may be similar and might overlap, which is certainly why the department can benefit. And the other point I would make is the department's use of force policy is something that at a minimum has to meet the Fourth Amendment, but the department can aspire to further than that and place more instructions on officers than even the fourth amendment might allow, might limit. So really what the department looks at in terms of policy might be something where they look at even what might be a higher standard than the DA's office might look at. Is it possible that an officer could be within policy and then be charged crimin primarily? Is that even possible? It's conceivably possible, but that's kind of one of the reasons why it in all other things being equal, a department might benefit from seeing what the DA's office does in terms of charging the officer and what evidence they might have that really informs their charging the officer so that the department can do its best job in rendering a way the officer acted within policy. So your hypothetical is certainly possible, but that is a reason and that sort of possibility is why the department would certainly want to wait to see what the DA's office does generally speaking. But again, there's no policy that says they have to. There's nothing that says they don't. But again, there's no policy that says they have to. There's nothing that says they don't. Once again, we asked the question the last of the chief. Is it possible that an officer can be within the city policies and procedures, but also at the same time be criminally charged? Is that even possible? I think it's like Devon said, it's possible. But the DA also looks at practices. So they may find something wrong with our training standards or the practices in which we used to train these officers on the officer of off-shooting, but it may not be unlawful. It's just different answer than the bond gave because I asked whether they look at this only from a criminal lens versus a policy and practice lens and you're telling me that they actually do review the policy and practices Well, they do review them and they may review them and say you need to work on this or this is not the best practice on how you train in officers On officer of shootings or you may need to change your policy to this standard So many times the clearance letters will give recommendations. Okay, so it's not limitately, did the person break the law and should they be charged? And it's a more comprehensive review of policies and practices. That's correct. I was hearing from Javan that there was a separate, that kind of, bifurcated and if that's true then you can, you know, move these practice kind of reviews independently but if they're in actually really linked and the DA is actually doing a kind of a second review of policies and practices and I think it's more challenging to move independently if that's what I'm hearing. Yes, the DA does look at the totality of the situation. They may say it's within policy or is not in policy, but it's not illegal. You don't have the best practice of what you're training the officers. Then you need to look at your training. OK, I was under the impression it was criminal looking for criminal violation only because it sounds like it's more comprehensive than that. It's very comprehensive. Thank you very much. Okay. I think I've got completes the first round. Let's turn to public comment. Okay. To be fair to people, we're going to try and get as many people as we can. We have over 23. Go ahead. So, Hiram, Kormier, Jr. followed by Alan Shea, followed by Kat Ross. And it's one minute and 30 seconds. I'll ring the bell at 30 seconds. Again, go ahead and show your lack of humanity for the world. I heard several times throughout the whole presentation the words of Grigis and severe. Is it not severe enough to be shot in your back and have a bullet pass in your fucking chest and hit a house on the other side of the street? That's not severe. If that, if you can't answer that question, answer it. Would you like to be shot in your back? Would you? No, you would not. That's it is severe. I don't want to hear that old boy shit, all that excuses you're making. Why are police more protected than average fucking citizenship? You had a gunny reign. There have been multiple people who have been shot by police. It's not severe. Tell that to all those lifers from past the niggas. Tell that to all the people suffered from this shit. I'm gonna tell you this. It's simple as this. Fire at Wenduma Gwenda and the cops who killed Anthony McClain. Do you understand me? Fuck at Wenduma Gwenda, niggas. Do you understand? Mayor the point of order that the speakers you've been using hate speech several times. You are a fucking dumbass. Are you a fucking boy? What's up, homie? Okay. Am I still on the way? Yeah, like I said, you need to look. You need to fire those cops. I don't care what you say. Black people do not deserve to die. There is not enough water in this world to wash the blood off your hands, boy. Understand me when I tell you that, say, hold me. I'm on your ass and believe me when Emma lets you come around, all you need is getting body. The same way we did from there. Good, time has expired. Go for me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Alan Shae, followed by Cat Ross, followed by Jane Ward. Mr. Shae is falling off. Cat Ross is falling off as well. Okay. No she is here. Okay. Cat. Ross. Ross. Go ahead. You have women in 30 Ross. Go ahead. You have one minute and 30 seconds. Go ahead. It would be a tragic missed opportunity if the momentum from this conversation does not lead to an action to make necessary policy changes. As such, the council should inquire with the city manager about whether the PPD believes the officers in the McCain case, broke department policy. Police accountability is needed, especially when OIS incidents occur, and city council should make inquiries into administrative matters, so that the city manager can demonstrate how PPD is being held accountable. Secondly, instruct the city manager to change the OIS policy to ensure that the administrative review includes a thorough investigation, including the administrative team interviewing all the officers at the scene within one month of the incident. PPD has said that during the administrative review, interviews with officers are sometimes given only during criminal investigations. That's against best practice according to the International Association of Chiefs of Police in their OIS guide. All officers should be compelled to answer questions with the administrative review with the two investigations staying strictly separate. According to the IACP, it's imperative the administrative review gets to the truth of what happens so the officer's actions can be reviewed and also that policy can be reviewed. The case-by-case policy proposed by the city attorney in FERS that the PPD investigations are not thorough enough to match the investigation done by the DA. It's infuriating to think that the DA is so much better equipped to investigate that they will find a fully different outcome. Certainly policy can be viewed your time is expiring. Yes. Yes. Grimeters to increase the efficacy of the investigation so that they can be trusted as thorough and complete. Thank you, Miss Ross. Thank you. Jane Ward, followed by Old and Denim who appears to not be in the meeting followed by Heavenly Hughes. This ward go ahead one minute, 30 seconds. should not be in the meeting followed by heavenly hues. This ward, go ahead one minute, 30 seconds. It is Town Hall members instruct and guide the city manager to change the officer involved shooting policy so that the city has a nine month deadline for administrative review. This is your role to instruct the city manager in all matters of policy, per the presentation that we just heard. This is what the community is asking for. Timely review of the conduct of employees who kill city residents is not just common sense. It is also an important part of the process of updating the OIS policy, so it's to prevent future deaths. If the policies followed by officers are leading to the deaths of community members, the NARBAD policies, and Council members should instruct staff to review and change procedures to make pass it in a safe for all community members. If, on the other hand, the policies in place are sufficient, but the officer broke policy, the officers should be notified in a timely matter so that they do not kill another community member and so that other officers also know what they can expect should they shoot and kill a resident. The Council's job is to instruct the city manager on all matters of policy. Please agenda an action to instruct the city manager to change the officer involved shooting policy. Say his name and the claim. Thank you. Heavenly Hughes followed by Victor Hodson, followed by Sarah Brewer, Bowland. Women at three seconds, Heavenly. Excuse me. Thank you, Councilmember Tyrone Hasten for consistently and persistently. Making a point that officers involved shooting needs to have immediate action of policy in place. One thing that City Councilmember Hampton said at this meeting, just like this meeting, it's almost like this meeting is mirroring the meeting we had back in October. Mayor, excuse me, Council member Tyrone Hampton said, too many words happened. We're hearing it again, a whole lot of words happening in no action. This is another outcry from the community on the behalf of the family to take action in the murder of Anthony McClain. The egregious murder of Anthony McClain didn't render an immediate disciplinary action by the mayor, the city, or the chief. Yes, Jess Rees is this is overlip, overwemilely frustrating to watch for years. Police officers get away with murders. Mayor Bishop, order to reason why I said to call me is before you became mayor, you spoke on the importance of what the city should project. Right now you all are projecting police violence and the murder of Anthony Claims does not matter to you. Thank you, miss Hughes. Victor Hodson, followed by Sarah Brewer, Bowlin, followed by Chris Cohen. Mr. Hodson? Yeah, okay. Go ahead. Yes, this is Victor Hodson, one of the founders of my tribe rides, where peace movement, reviewing the conduct of employees who killed someone in a timely manner is not just, excuse me, is not just common sense. It is an important policy decision to prevent future incidents. If the policies followed by the officers are inadequate and are leading to the death of community members, then the policy should be reviewed and changed to make the procedures safer for all community members. If the policies in place are sufficient, but the officer broke policy, the officer should be notified in a timely manner so that their behavior does not continue nor spread to other officers who look up to them. The council job is to instruct the city manager on policy. A gen dies in action to instruct the city manager to change the officer involved shooting policy. We have to do better. I yield my time. Thank you. Sarah Brewer Bowlin, followed by Chris Cohen, followed by Michael Williams, followed by Brittany Pollock. Miss Bowlin, go ahead. Policy changes will, policy changes will save lives. What I've heard you say tonight is that council may instruct city manager in all manner of policy. And you provide guidance to the chief. I hope you are hearing that the community wants PPD to stop shooting black people and to be held accountable and taken off the streets when they do. The community is clearly demanding to instruct the city manager to revise the OIS policy. PPD must stop shooting fleeing suspects in the back. If this policy had been changed eight years ago, after the unjust murder of Kendrick McDade, Anthony McClain would be alive and with his children right now. Again, the community wants to live. Black people in Pasadena have the right to not be shot in the back when fleeing. So tell the city manager and the police chief to change the policy. Listen to the community because the community lives with the consequences. Thank you. Thank you. Chris Cohen followed by Michael Williams followed by Brittany Pollock. Julia R would be next, but she's not in the meeting. Yeah, hi. This is coming. Can you hear me? Yes, we can go ahead. Yeah, I understand the limits of the council's power regarding the city manager. But as you, vice mayor Wilson said earlier in this call, you're supposed to be supplying guidance to the city manager to counsel. So I'm asking you to make a motion to agenda a change to the officer in law of shooting policy. Please change the length of the administrative review period to conclude within nine months of the incident. Nine months is the amount of time that police chief Perez said is the outer limit of time needed by his staffed by his staff to conduct a thorough investigation. So it should be taking three, four or five years. Our own police chief says it can be done in nine. Our community needs police accountability and we're not getting it. So we're asking you to make a motion, second motion, agenda as an action item. Please instruct the city manager to change the officer-involved shooting policy. It seems like you guys wait because you're scared that you'll find a different result than the DA. Like Heaven Lee said, we want immediate action when our community members are murdered by police. We want justice and we're not getting it. Thanks. Thank you. Michael Williams. Followed by Brittany Pollock. Followed by Julia R who's not in the meeting. Followed by Carolyn Galoni. Mr. Williams, one minute, 30 seconds. Go ahead. Can everybody hear me? Yes, go ahead. I think it's always interesting how this commission might suspend around or counsel like to spin around what the public has asked. The public is not asking for the counsel to fire directs, but we're asking you as to hold accountable the offices. You are in charge and have purview over the city manager who is the city manager and whether that city manager can keep their job or not. You have the ability to recommend things to the city manager where we're asking you as a whole body, including the city manager. But we're asking you as a whole body, including the city managed, including the police chief of police, and including every single council member on the board, is to fire the officers that killed Anthem acclaimed spirit. That is what we are asking them. To stop this foolishness about you don't have the ability or the power to do whatever. You can make it happen. You make other things happen. You do other things that the community doesn't want. You commission other folks, higher people that you want. You have a review board to hire the next general, the next general city manager. You all can do it if you want to but it's clear that you don't it's clear that you do not want to. Mr. Williams your time is expired. You would lose that on your sweet union month. Fire the officers that killed Anthony McLean. We'll call the Red E. Paula it. I'm a call by. Thank you, Mr. Williams. Julia R, who's not in the meeting, followed by Carolyn Galoni. Miss Pollock, go ahead. Hi, honey. Yes, go ahead. I'm calling like others to demand the firing of all the Pasadena police officers who played a part in the murder of Anthony McLean over a year ago in August of 2020, demand accountability. I want to ask you all to imagine something with me. I'm a teacher in the county. Imagine it myself or any other teacher or public servant were to murder one of our students. In public, in front of many people, on video, in fact, murdering them while they run away. It would be absolutely insane to imagine myself continuing on the job, let alone not being criminally prosecuted and in fact being protected by the city. The people who murder and steal the lives of human beings, our community members need to be held accountable. This is not a lot to ask. Like this is the bare minimum. It's so embarrassing that you all won't even fire the officers. What the hell are you thinking? There are legitimate murderers roaming the streets of Pasadena who are being paid by the city to live their best lives. You are obsessed with words and jargon creating an entire presentation to talk about things you can and cannot do while you never actually do anything. You use words like officer involved shooting an in custody death. These are murdered people. Miss Pollock, your time has expired. We need to be humanizing human beings. This is just joining you. Not in the meeting, so now to Carolyn Galoni, followed by Julie Martinez. Hi. Carolyn, go ahead. I find to say that, yes, clearly these colors all have a correct right. I mean, you need to change the OIS policy. You need to stop talking about it as incidents. I totally agree. These are murders. Don't let murders wash the street. We have way too many of these incidents. It's murder in Pasadena. Anywhere. One way too many. these incidents, it's murder in Pasadena anywhere, one at way too many, but we have at least four. And don't let this opportunity pass you, the change passes, all these are so clearly allowed the police to go ahead and murder or do their jobs, we'll call it, which absolutely no consequences. I also think that making plans for review, like we're doing say of iOS and tennis is pretty much admitting that more incidents will happen and they will because the police are never fired, they're never prosecuted. You guys are doing nothing. Why once is continue? Let's keep making plans for what we're going to do in the next one comes up. Of course, the next murder comes up or just come at the right, we're saying they're going to do in the next one comes up. Of course, the next murder comes up. We're saying they're going to be one. Because we didn't change anything. And yes, you do all have pellets. You 100% do. You can change starters. You can hire a city manager who has new questions, please, and opposes police unions, and has pushed for quick investigation process for it. You can stop approving all the frickin' money that P.A.P.D. asked for. So I say yes to everything no matter how much the community demands that you say no. If it's yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I mean, chunk your record, it's ridiculous. And shrink their budget, subgiving them. Miss Gellone, your time has expired. Well, gonna move on to Julie Martinez. Again, she's murdered the fall by Jasmine Richards of Dulo fall by pastor Kerwin Manning. Miss Martinez Hello, can you hear me? Yes, we can go ahead one minute 30 seconds go ahead On the agenda however several distinctions are necessary to highlight. We need you to join the community. You as our elected leaders to be outraged that the police chief that you all hired has not fired the police officers who killed Anthony McLean. Justice is needed in our community. These three officers must be removed from our community. They pose a fair, severe danger to other community members. I'm a resident district seven, and Pasadena resident, and I take this very seriously. Police officers are never hired to be a judge, a jury, and an executioner. It wasn't a grigious crime for these officers to shoot a man in the back. California is a dangerous place for men of color. California has the most police shootings, and LA counties has the most of any counties. Another distinction is black Californians are three times more likely to be seriously injured, shot, or killed by police, relative to their share of the state's population. It is up to you. It's some parent that you, as an elected body, need to create a policy change because these incidents, these murders clearly have serious consequences for those involved. And they can have far-reaching implications for how communities engage with law enforcement, potentially creating challenges for maintaining public safety. Our community here in Pasadena do not trust the police because it is rooted in the community. Ms. Martinez, your time has expired. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Jasmine Richards of Duel of Fall by Pastor Kerwin Manning, followed by Yoel Carter Martinez, who has not yet checked into the meeting. Jasmine fell off Pastor Kerwin Manning. Pastor Manning. Please stop killing Black civilians and residents of Pasadena. Over 20 years of Pasadena, I've had the unfortunate honor of serving families devastated by the untimely death of their loved ones killed by Pasadena police officers. given the opportunity to have their day in court and will never be able to send their own names. So we must, Neyroy Barnes, Kendrick McDade, Reginald Thomas, and yes, Anthony McLean. They were all civilians, not criminals. They were civilians. Maybe this discussion should be centered around civilian involved shootings. I say this because since it's inception, there has never, never been a passage in a police officer killed by a civilian yet around a black man. I hope you heard me say never. A PPD officer has never been killed in the line of duty by a civilian. So why has there been so many black men killed by PPD without proper investigation, protocol, arrest, enclosure. Because the system is broken. We need our mayor, city manager, and city council members to do whatever it takes to change these horrific outcomes for civilians, especially those who are melding in rich. God bless you. Thank you. Thank you. You all Carter Martinez is not in the meeting so we'll go to she is, okay. And then followed by Sarah, then Kaveh Ayin, Ynany, who is not yet checked into the meeting. Ms. Martinez, go ahead. Hello. Lack of accountability and transparency, after an officer involved shooting, as you well know, greatly erodes an undermined public trust in police, the council and the city manager. The council should instruct the city manager to report out to the council and to the community when an officer breaks policy and explain the disciplinary action taken to show that accountability is taking place. According to California Attorney General Rob Bonta, when an officer involves shooting or curse, transparent and open communication is critical to maintain public trust. Thank you, I yield my time. Thank you. Sarah, followed by Kave Nayani, who is not checked into the meeting, followed by Karina K. Sarah, go ahead. One minute and 30 seconds. Go ahead. Yes, I would like to say that I have asked you to put these further. Reginald JR Commerce, I see you recorded by some means of use. Back on September 30th, 2016, the officers are still off the job. They must stay safe, safe, and have time and murder him. In front of the fight, the children, as well as the mother to children. Inside their part, the body looks up in the apartment for 14 hours. This should have to walk around this body as he lets check there. The officers involved. Can you guys hear me? Yes, go ahead. The officers involved for the responsible for the murder of regional terror comments Jeffrey newlin Thomas Butler Robert Griffith I put a roll school for the four year Prefeit of them chattel I Well, go miss As he's just I'm not working on goldmins. Sam, I think Rick is definitely using it. I'm not okay because I think the leaves get away with murder and traumatized children. This is just not right. I don't know if this is policy, just murder. So I don't think they're caught. So there's this part of the family for hours on that sector. This is the stop. It's been almost six on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that. I'll be for hours on that followed by Camille Lewis who has not yet checked in, followed by Adriana Batista. Karina, go ahead, one minute, 30 seconds. My name is Karina. I'm a Pasadena resident, and I'm a member of Black Lives Matter Los Angeles. And I'm trying not to throw the fuck up on my computer right now after having sat through the same presentation that we sat through in October. I want to highlight the limitations of your current policy that you like to hide behind with all your lawyer rates and with all your bullshit. The limitations of your processes right now are such that a person can get shot in the back and can be nelt on. I want to ask you, did you guys watch the video? Did you guys watch the video of Anthony McClain being murdered? Okay? Because what it tells me is that the whole conversation that we just fucking sat through doesn't allow for there to be any accountability in what happened to him. So fuck your policies if it does not bring about justice, if it does not prevent a black man from being shot twice in the f**king back and knelt on. Did you all see it? Did you all see it? And if you did, then you're okay with this. And you should be ashamed of yourself. You should be f**king sick like I am. Those officers need to be fired. You all need to figure out how to bring about accountability and pass it to me. And I talk about what the f**k you can't do. We're sick of that shit. We're sick of people dying. And you're not being able to do anything about it. Figure it to fuck out. We don't want to talk about limitation. Are you kidding me? We've had this conversation already. You just said that you allow criminals to work on the fucking force with past pay or dollars. You think we're OK with that? No. Figure you're fucking... Rita, your time has expired. Yeah, set up, Javan and fuck you for all your signatures. We'll move on to. Camille Lewis is not in the meeting. We'll move on to Adrienne about Tista, followed by Kate McInerney. Ms. Batista. I, um, I would like to point out that the this lie of the administrative review having to take place after the DA review that's pure lies that John Perez fed us and now Chief Moody is feeding us the same why. We will not stand for that. It's blatant that the OIR group and dependent investigations and recommendations were never seriously considered by PPD because in Kendrick McDade's case, their recommendation five was because in the McDade case the department failed to conduct an administrative investigation. The department should develop protocols requiring that in every use of deadly force, not just officer involved students of every use of death-reforce incident, Pasadena PD should conduct an administrative investigation that, at a minimum, includes follow-up interviews of the involved officers regarding tactical decision-making and collects sufficient additional evidence so that the executive team may identify and assess performance, supervision, and equipment issues based on involved officers' articulated mindset. This report goes on to note that OIR Group was not invited to the McDade criminal shooting. Ms. Batista, your time has expired. Okay, that's another issue. Why the fuck is this comment only allowed a minute and a half? Like you can't keep doing this on important issues. Just keep on cutting them down all the time. We're going to move on to Kate McInerney followed by Janie. Janie let Lennox. Janay Lennox. Janay go ahead one minute 30 seconds. So this was an awful presentation. I literally on the record you guys expose a whole lot of bullshit. The fact that you admitted that officers who have actually done whole presentation. I literally on the record you guys expose a whole lot of bullshit, the fact that you admitted that officers who have actually done crime are still on the force. That is absurd. That is absurd. You guys need to change policy clearly if you have criminals who can stay on the force. Also, it is absolutely absurd for you guys to try to figure out a way to say that shooting someone on arm somehow could be justifiable. There is no justifiable shooting of unarmed civilians. There is no justification. There is not going to be anywhere in history without be justifiable. So that means that these people need to be immediately fired. So the officers who had murdered Anthony McClain need to be immediately fired. Whatever happens in their criminal record, that's on the DA. The firing, the basic minimum, that is what you guys can do. I heard that in this whack, ridiculous phrase that you guys can't fire them. So change whatever policies and do what you need to do, but firing people who do outrageous acts, I believe that's what someone said when they said, yeah, if you shoot somebody behind the back, that is outrageous. You damn skipy it is. So that means you need to fucking fire them. This is not hard. This is kind of the basic minimum of comprehension. If someone is doing criminal activities, they're probably not good for the job right like if I'm over here doing criminal activity This one is expired Thank you Kate Kate McInerney Star 610 mute miss McInerney I'm going to go ahead and start six to unmute. Go ahead. Rather than just to find. Sorry. Can you hear me? Yes. Go ahead. Yes. that you can't justify all the reasons that you supposedly cannot intervene. You also be finding every way that you can intervene, that you can hire the officers until they're Anthony to play in. If the charter or policy quote unquote doesn't allow it, then yes, it is necessary that we change that policy. At the same time, it's important that we not delay on this. The community has waited long enough for justice. So if you can instruct the city manager, then instruct her to fire the consulate and leave a claim. It's not simple. Instruct the city manager to take the policy and keep our institutions so that murder is like that of an empty machine and can drink with day and other black people do not help. and came to our institutions so that murders like that of Anthony McPain and Kendrick McDade and other Black people did not happen. Once again, communities, members are giving the answers, explaining these supposed limitations over and over again is patronizing and isn't going to cut it. Expanding technology isn't going to cut it. We don't need more technology. When the footage already shows the brutal anti-blackness that's surrounded Anthony McLean's murder, you all said yourself, if it's serious enough then it is possible to find these officers now. How can you not see the severity of this? How can you not ask on the urgency to get these cops off the street? Ms. McAderny? Yes. Far from yesterday. Thank you. The last speaker we have is Caheeve Naim. Coming in as Anna Derby. Yes. Yes, we can. One minute, 30 seconds. Go ahead. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, my name is Stavina Aene. I have just one question for you guys. When are you guys going to start doing your job? I mean, this is completely shameless. Honestly, after a year and a half of this is shameless. Andy Wilson dared to come here and cry for the officers because they didn't get that no one necessary they haven't been what? All these officers that you cried about sir, they haven't missed the check. They've been on the work. You want them to be clear they have been clear. What is not clear is what the fuck you guys are doing over there when there's the murder still driving on the street. The same person who shot a stutter, a son, a grandson of the grandmother who died believing that you guys are not there to give some justice. Shame on you Andy Wilson. Did disgusting man. We're going to confront you and and publish we know all right we know exactly what I write it we will shame you we will expose you as who you are which as which officer you crying are you crying for the officers Andy or you're just crying for another twenty thousand dollars that's gonna come to your finance for your campaign finance you guys are corrupt you guys are disgraced to this city and we will expose you looking forward to seeing Jones coffee and And it's awesome looking out there looking cute and it's fun just being the nice. Excuse me your time has expired Not enough. Thank you. Thank you Complete public comment on matters on this item Okay that completes public common on matters on this item. Okay. I think there are a number of issues that came up that I would like us to pursue. The first one is, you know, it doesn't help to have a district attorney's office that takes one, two, three years and matters that are of very high importance. And I think we can all agree to that. It doesn't help public safety, it doesn't help public trust in any of our systems. And so I would ask that we draft a letter and chief, I would ask that maybe you ask like-minded police chiefs to join in a letter with you to ask the district attorney to, and the board of supervisors to dedicate more resources to the issue of investigating some of these incidents. And I'd also ask that we add this to our annual, this as an agenda item to our annual meeting with our supervisor, Catherine Barber. We can't be the only city that is, you know, this is an agenda item to our annual meeting with our supervisor, Katherine Barber. We can't be the only city that is, you know, complaining and being harmed by investigations that are taking longer and longer. Now, you know, back to, we want to get it right. Obviously that's paramount. We want to make sure that we have all of the information. And if there's an argument to be made by the VA that, you know, no matter what the resources might be, we still will not be able to complete investigations in a timely manner. Then let's hear that argument, and then we can take that issue up. But in the meantime, I do think we should do all that we can as a city and as a police department to persuade like-minded police chiefs, to persuade other elected officials, including our supervisor to take this matter up with the district attorney together with us. The issue, chief, and I'm looking at you because there was a question about the automatic, the body-worn cameras switching gears a little bit, but that's been raised. That's an administrative matter and my understanding, chief, as you're looking, we paid for the cameras. And this is, so when an officer pulls his or her gun from a holster, that camera together with the other cameras that the city would turn on. And that's a matter that you're looking at, so it can implement. Yes, so council has put the money up, approved it, so to speak, but we're doing a trial on it right now because we have 90 days to look at it to get it right. So to speak, because we do have offices who use different holsters. So we just want to make sure we get it right the first time. So yeah, we're going to start that 90 day trial with that coming up here soon. And then the other matter that has been raised and I'll just Ask about that and that's the issue of setting the cameras to capture Up to two minutes of footage the pre-event Yes, so we're also doing a trial or it was also approved by council which is called performance and it's a dash, dashboard. So if there's a critical incident to say that you're involved in, we can look at your camera, go back two minutes with performance to capture that pre-event data. So we're going, while we're doing these trial testings, we're gonna test different times pre-buffering times. So we're looking at 60 seconds, 90 seconds, two minutes. We'll look at the different buffering times. So I raised those questions and those issues, because those are issues that have been raised together with the issue of investigation. So I think it's important for the public to understand that you and the department are being responsive to those issues. Right. We're trying to make it better. So with this last year, where the officer didn't have his camera on, well, with signal sidearm, the other cameras surrounding that officer will come on. And so that's what we're looking at, including the involved officer, the directly acting officer. If he has it on, if he doesn't, then it'll be captured by cameras surrounding him or her. But we'll make clear the policy that the families should be on. And so, you know, this is a very complicated matter. Every time we take it up, it seems to get more and more complicated. But we're not going to increase the public's trust by pre-determining outcomes, by politicizing the disciplinary process. Well, policing in our city, you know, we have a civil service system in place that respects statutory rights, constitutional law, and our charter. But I want to remind people that the civil service system that includes a right to predispelary hearing, that includes appeal rights, was not intended to protect employees. It was intended to protect the public from having politicized decisions and a point to prevent you get a new police chief or a new city manager, or even a new mayor, and suddenly all of the faces around change because they have complete autonomy. That was the intent of civil service to ensure that that did not happen. So we should be very careful about changing policies that put in the hands of either an elected body or remove the controls protecting the public from that sort of incestuous employment practice. And so I firmly believe that, you know, we should have all this the season plays to get us to come. The last 60 seconds of your call. We could not hear. Okay. Well, maybe that's better. I just, I think the, I was just saying, John, we have to be careful when tinkering with the system that's intended to protect the public overall. We want to get the correct outcome, but we want to ensure at the same time that protections are in place so that faces don't change simply because we have a retirement in one department whether it's the police department or in other department, or we have a city manager that's new and suddenly, you know, that individual's favored friends are hired or even a new mayor or majority of the city council. And if you don't have the correct checks and balances in place, you defeat that civil service system and you end up with politicized employment decisions by, on the part of an elected body or individual administrators. And that would defeat the entire purpose behind civil service to protect the public and to have integrity and decision making. Vice Mayor Wilson followed by Mr. Hampton. Thank you Mayor. And I think it's super valuable discussion to have in front of the public and those that are on public safety. There's no easy answer here. It's difficult in terms of law enforcement today and I think you know the awareness of how parts of our community have been maybe at the receiving end of some injustices is very important as well. So I think for somebody who's not running for reelection, I'm trying to balance that in the last 10 years of my term to do what's best for our community and we need law enforcement or a capable and feel supported, but also public that feels like they can trust the system. I'm a little disappointed that we didn't have any statistics about how many of the offers involved shooting and what the timeline has been in terms of getting the DA's release lab and we're kind of talking in theory. It's very hard to know what the staff look like. And frankly, every shooting is devastating to somebody, whether it's the officer or the victim or both. So I wish we had some data to look at in some time lines because we're talking really about timelines. And you know, the DA is, we put that as a gating factor in trying to figure out what to do with our own personnel. I do think what I've learned tonight is that that is insightful and important. But I would ask that whether it's public safety or our new citizen police oversight commission that we look at providing some best practices around maybe operating those scenarios where once again we don't know how many times it sounds like in some cases we've moved before the DA's Letter has come out that if it's clearly Egregious and I think that's a word that tells them or hampton use that we don't feel Cobbled to take some actions so that we have somebody who's maybe not Behaved well and doesn't represent the city well on the streets. And then we take preemptive action and frankly if somebody is justified in taking this action, we give them the right to go out and do their jobs unencumbered. So I think this one size fits all approaches is not a good one. I do think there's a set of scenarios where the DA's work is super informative and that we kind of provide guidance and that we can't make the policy but by guidance to the city manager and the chief to, in those cases wait for the DA's letter because it's going to tell us how to kind of handle some of those areas that are in the kind of that gray or that middle ground. So I do think more work needs to be done here and mayor I'd ask you to figure out where that work needs to be done. I think this is and I thank Councilor Rampton for bringing this to our attention. Many of us don't serve on public safety and I know this is a difficult issue so I know it's been enlightening for me but I do think I'm having a little bit more data and then providing some input to our city manager and our police chief around. That's practices and you know you said don't change the system but you know system doesn't always work right all the time and I think we it's incumbent upon us to challenge the systems to do better. I think passing into deserves better. And I don't know what the answer is, but I think if we take this data's quo is good enough, that's a problem. So I wanna look for pathways and strategies that we can do better. And I understand the limitations we have as a charter city. But I know our chief and our city manager is eager to accept or embrace the wisdom of the council and others to do better. So I would ask that you and my colleagues contemplate how to digest that as a path forward. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, Mr. Hampton. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, everyone who's trying to end on this extremely serious matter. And to the Vice Mayor, Egregious was actually used by the police chief. And then also, I just wanted to mention, you know, you're right, you're 100% right about the system. The system is not working. The system is giving us thousands of palm of thousands every week. Public commenters that are extremely upset and it sounds as if you know the council as a whole in the city's not working on the on the behalf the best behalf of the people and I understand I and I I feel for all of those commenters and I feel for myself and I feel for myself and my nephews and and everyone who looks like me that gets kid pulled over by police or anyone and what the outcome will be. And so I'm going to make a motion. I request that the city manager. It's a motion as a request that the city manager can really all administrative reviews of all employees between six and nine months. Employees including the police department because they're all employees, all of the employees. And that's my motion. If I get a second, I get a second. If I don't, then I got another motion I'm gonna make. I'll second the motion. Thank you. Let's call it both. Excuse me, this is Michelle Bonnery's. No, we can make most of all the comments. Are you about to tell me that I can't make a motion? Well, what I was going to say is that all I was going to indicate was that consistent with the Brown Act, action taken by the council would need to be based on information that is clearly listed in the agenda. And our agenda does not speak to beyond, you mentioned all employees. Okay, then I'll just, I'll specify it. If you're right, would it be better by specifying to observe all shootings? Yes, that would be more consistent with the report. That's listed. It does say oral presentation. And that's what's anticipated. But I think that the way it's worded, you could give direction to the city manager to come back with something on that subject. Okay. I will request a motion to complete administrative reviews of all several issues between six and nine months. Well, those are two different things. I think the city attorney will you repeat what your suggestion is? My motion is now to complete administrative review. No, I got yours, Mr. Hatter. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to say that. My motion is now to complete a ministry of review. No, I got yours. Mr. Hector. I'm collecting the city manager to return with. No, that's not what he's saying. What are you saying? No. So I need to make a motion to have the city manager return with something. For action. Because this is a request a request that the city manager come up with a policy. Okay. Our request the city manager or that's right that's there. Our request is the city manager with a policy to finish administrative reviews of police officer involved shootings between six and nine months. You can make that motion certainly, Mr. Hampton. And the council just needs to be aware of the potential inability based on our interpretations of the law. But maybe there is a way that something could be consistent with what you're saying within the bounds of the law. So luckily we have a fantastic city attorney who's going to protect us. Okay. Okay. Mr. Madison. Okay. Okay. Mr. Madison. Thank you, Mayor. I was attracted to your idea of outreach on the timing, but I wondered whether it might not be more appropriate for the city attorney to have that outreach to the district attorney rather than the police chief given the police chief's role as a decision maker and the fact that you know these issues cut across a number of these legal processes that really, I would think the city attorney might be better positioned to have that communication. Obviously, I'd welcome either of their views on that, but just wanted to raise that as a food forethought. I'm okay either way. I'm just looking, I guess I'd look to the city attorney and the police chief to see who might be more persuasive from an investigatory point of view, whether it's the city prosecutor and her capacity or city attorney or the police chief with the support of other police chiefs who might also be frustrated because their investigations are prolonged. Yeah, I was going to, no, I was going to check with the St. Gabriel Valley Police Chiefs Association. Yeah. They may already have something in place because I'm sure they're frustrated. And then there are other organizations I was going to look at as far as police chiefs to see if they already had something written up. Madam Assemblyman. Madam Assemblyman, I would say let's leave it in the hands of the city attorney and the police chief to determine who might be more persuasive. And maybe it's both. Maybe Michelle uses her. Aren't you the president of the city attorneys? The city prosecutor's association for LA County. There you go. So maybe it's Michelle and her. You're in my Pasadena capacity. Yeah, in her capacity as president of the LA County prosecutors. Well, it wouldn't be as president of the LA County Prosecutors. Well, it wouldn't be as president of the presentation. No, it would be in my capacity as an employee in the city of Pasadam. Got it. And maybe it's both. So I would say let's leave it in their hands to make the determination. The point is we have to do things differently and ask that the DA do things differently. Responsibly, I don't think the motion that has been made to adopt a cookie cutter approach and just predetermined that six to nine months would be enough time is a way to proceed. I don't think it's responsible to do that because we're artificially tying our own hands in limiting. That's the goal of the opportunity for a thorough investigation where more time is needed. So I would say, let's leave it in their hands Mr. Rattleson go ahead. Yeah no so I intend to not support the motion. I don't think although I certainly understand the frustration and desire for sort of a one size fits all quick approach. I just don't think this legal landscape is capable of that. But I definitely support the outreach. I also think, you know, there's another whole element here, which is we're talking about, you know, we're not talking about trash truck drivers. We're talking about our police officers, public safety. And I'm sure all of us saw the article in the LA Times. We all see the note where these, you know, far too many nights of every week we have shots fired by wrongdoers. We've had what in the last three or four months, by my, we recall a 10 year old, a 13 year old, and a 14-year-old, a 13-year-old, and a 14- or 15-year-old shot, who of them killed fatally. That's the other side of what we're talking about here. We ask our police officers to pursue and apprehend and prevent those who illegally possess and use guns in violent crime. And so, you know, there are important interests here that aren't reflected in the weekly public comment of the handful of folks from the community and I give all the community tremendous weight in their comments but I just I would or just to not not forget that side of this equation either and I find it sad that we don't get any public comment We don't get any public on that 10-year-old, on that 13-year-old, on that 15-year-old. And we should be spending at least as much time-energy and resources on trying to address those issues, as we are on the issues of certain vault shootings. So thank you, Mayor. Thank you. Thank you. I don't think there's been a second for the motion that's crafted by Mr. Hampton in the end. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's a second mayor. Okay. So. It's a question mayor. Thank you, mayor. A question for the city attorney. So my understanding from the discussion tonight is that we can make recommendations accommodations to the city manager in this area that the motion considers. We can't act ourselves, but it's also clear to me from the discussion tonight that the city manager and staff already have a very clear position on what we're potentially advising them to do. And so this motion will be purely symbolic. Is that a fair read of the situation? I believe so. Okay. But I guess I would just say I agree with staff's tradition that they take everything as an on a case by case basis and it doesn't make exist to be limited by a strict timeline, but I do support the symbolic gesture that we need these things to move forward. So I would support the motion at this time, but it's not going to make a significant difference, unfortunately. All that rests with the DA moving things along more quickly. Thank you. I guess, Mayor, I need to understand then if I'm being directed to do something, but it's symbolic. I don't have never heard that before. I'm being told to do something that I think would be detrimental in the end to the way we do things in Pasadena and to the fairness of officers, but the community as well because there are ramifications of having a DA report and a city administrative report that disagree. There are serious demonstrations of that. So I'm on unclear if I'm going to symbolically be told to do something. I mean, I'm just intended to just ignore it. I've never ignored a council direction in my life, you know, 30 years in local government. I'm going to be clear that this is not a symbolism. This is a, this is something I will be requesting that you do within six to nine months. Okay. Thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, I've given everything we heard tonight. I'm in for what the city manager just said. I don't want to direct the city manager to do something that she doesn't believe is in the best of these. In the city's best interest. So I understand that the sentiment. So I don't think I would support the motion at this time then. That's where I guess paying out $7.5 million, whatever the next money that will be paying out is in the best interest of the city. Thank you. I think we still have one public speaker who somehow was lost in the ether, but located Mr. Shea. Alan Shea? He was waiting. Mr. Shea, somehow we couldn't locate him. One man, 30 seconds. Please go ahead. Thank you. I really appreciate the councilmen and the mayor bringing forth our true sense of political science, race, politics, and everything else that goes on in our community. The truth of the matter is that Anthony McLean was murdered. The videos clearly show that he was shot in the back with a cell phone in his left hand which he dropped going down Raymond on the left side of the street, whereas the gun that was patterned was on the right side in front of the park. The video is so clear that we should even be wasting our time having this discussion. More than anything, we should not be centered around an infamous period in history where it's so clear to us. This is a chance for everybody to get redeemed that's a part of the city council, part of our officials, especially talking about police actions in which we only had one police officer that was terminated by an administrative officer back in 2007 and the case was white versus Pasadena for police shooting and it was her getting shot by her own gun on an accident and she was fired by the city manager. The city manager has the authority to fire anybody within her confines. So we can't sit up here and say you can't do these things. Mr. Shea, your time has expired. It's there. And I appreciate it. I appreciate it. So let's take action tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Shea. One final point, the request for data made by Vice Mayor Wilson, I think whatever letter and whoever sends the letter or letters should include the data and show clearly how long it takes for these investigations on as them being the DA as well as the Board of Super things along, but I will not be supporting the motion. I do think that's there's detriment in artificially setting timelines when we should be focused on ensuring that we get it right. And we should be focused on dedicating more resources to get to ensure we get it right in a timely manner. And unfortunately that's a function that's with another investigatory agency. And so I'm all for asking that of the investigatory agency to dedicate more resources to move things along, but we have to get it right in order to ensure the public's trust and protect public safety. So with that, we can call the roll. This is moved by Councilmember Hampton, seconded by Councilmember Kennedy. A request to the City Manager to develop a policy to complete all administrative reviews for officer involved shootings within six to nine months. Councillor Meurhampton. Yes. Councillor McKenny. Yes. Councillor Meurham Madison. No. Councillor Meurham Masuda. No. Councillor Meurivis. No. Councillor Member Williams is absent. Vice Mayor Wilson? No. Mayor Cordo. No. The motion fails two in favor, five against one absent. And let me add one final thought. There should be some thought. You know, six, saying six to nine months. I mean, there's no basis for it. There's no data. There's no analysis. And I think that's what we're reacting to. Those of us who did not support the motion. And so we should look at the data. We should ask the district attorney to advise us on what it would take to move that timeline up and understand that it's not always going to be possible. For all the reasons we've discussed, I don't want to rehash the conversation, but these are all issues that we should take up with the, with our Board of Supervisors as well as the Distributor. Okay, I think that completes. We have two. Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Hampton, were those your hands up from previous comments? No, no. Before we adjourn tonight, I'd like to make a request that with all of the shootings that have been taken place in terms of doing interventionists work to prevent the kind of violence that has occurred. So I'd ask that group be invited back to either public safety, which I think is more appropriate, or to the City Council to give an update on what they're doing in that regard. Councillor Member, that was a topic actually that we were talking this morning about maybe having on our joint meeting with PUSD. I don't know if you've seen but Pasadena Media did an excellent interview with the chief and with one of the consultants that we've hired to help with intervention work. And he was very specific in talking about intervention really works best and furmost when it in the schools and talking about how we might be able to work with the schools and have him present for that. I've not talked to the superintendent yet. If that is agreeable, we'll pursue that and we can either then bring it through public safety as well or maybe that would substitute for public safety since the full council would be there but that was our thinking. Okay. This so long as we as a body receive an update and I want to make sure consistent with interim police chief Cheryl Moody that she knows that she has a full support of the council in introducing resources in the community to affect you way, a cessation of the kind of violence, gun violence particularly that we have been seeing. And then lastly, it's no secret. We receive regular reports at public safety, the number of handguns that remove out of vehicle by person who are possessing this gun, who have no legitimate reasons to have gun, whether they be ghost guns, unregistered guns, or some other kind of weapons. And then we all need to be concerned in local governments when the federal government has held as well as county government that boxed cars of guns, or this is not speculation anymore, where gangs and others have removed guns off of box cars, even when the guns were being moved legitimately. We've got a serious problem, and it isn't just Pasadena. This is a national problem but obviously our elected star and we are elected to deal with the issues in Pasadena. Thank you Mayor for the opportunity. Thank you Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hampton follows by Vice Mayor Wilson. Thank you Mayor. I said, I had two motions over that one felt I was going to ask for the next one. The next motion is to condemn since this is a The DA everybody points their fingers at the DA. So I would like to make a motion to condemn the DA for failing to act within a appropriate time Or in officer bald shooting. I'm almost time yet to wait for a second, but I think we're there. Maybe I don't get a second. Maybe everybody's good with how the DA is. Well, I think sending a letter and putting them on notice is the first step. And also look, it's a matter of the DA, dedicating current resources, but it's also a matter of the board of supervisors dedicating the needed resources. And if we're going to hold that office accountable, I think there are some steps in between before we do that. I don't object to being strong and direct with other elected officials, but we first have to do our homework and send the letters, notifying and give them an opportunity to remedy. Vice Mayor Wilson. Everybody has said that the DA is not doing their job here. And if he's not doing his job, I think that we need to make a statement. No question. I just have a second, that's fair. And I am going to go on and figure it out. We'll get to you, you're going to send a knife letter to the DA and we'll figure out what he says after that. I'm sure he's already heard these meetings. I'm pretty sure that he has staff that watches these things and hears about these things and his name has come up in a lot of the press that has come out as it relates to all the serve on shooting. So I don't know what a letter's gonna do, but I will follow your judgment, Mayor. Thank you. Thanks, Mayor Wilson. Mayor, I'm sorry. Do you call me? Yes. I just want to reiterate. I do think the data is important. I just want to make sure this a venue and and you may be to describe what it is to look at the performance over time in terms of the DA's response of this. I would also ask that once again that we, with that data at hand, in some narrative around those specific incidents that we encourage the city manager and the police to see whether there's opportunities for them to move systematically. More quickly when the disposition of the situation is more obvious. It's clear that the. And the other thing is that we have a lot of the same issues. And so, the DIAs analysis and report is super important. There's certain set of these situations, but if we can get to an extra outcome and give those officers peace of mind and the, we need peace of mind, I think it's everyone's best interest to do that. I don't know where to. Have that pursued. I understand we can't mandate that, but I do think that is a concept that's worth investigating. I know if that's public safety or This and police oversight commission, but I would ask that that get Remanded or wherever it goes to For further exploration once the data has been collected. We'll work with the city manager See the city manager nodding her head in agreement. So We'll work with her to see where the appropriate place to have that discussion might be. Thank you very much. And I also, I just want to clarify one thing. I mean, we're talking about the city completing its investigation. And I'll look to the chief or or the lieutenant. But it's not until we complete an investigation and put the package together and send it to the DA, that the DA starts its investigation, correct? That's correct. We put together our criminal investigation. And then we forwarded to the DA's office for another pair of eyes to look at it and conduct their own investigation. And so we conduct our own investigation, package it up, submit it to the district attorney for their determination. In the meantime, do we just sit around if there are policy questions that need to be answered or policy issues that are in need of change by the department's determination, or do we take action to remedy those? If we see something that needs immediate action, if we need to take immediate action we'll do that. Like I said with the student at Allen and Corston, we looked at our tactics, we look at the amount of rounds that were fired. So we will take a look at these things before doing an official investigation. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I think that exhausts at least for the night. This matter I want to thank everyone again for participating. You know that these are complicated and difficult issues. We all want it to do the right thing. You know we're happy to disagree on whether or not an artificial timeline is the correct thing, but that doesn't mean we can't continue to have discussions once we have more data, once we have a response from the district attorney. And we should demand a response from our district attorney as well as from the board of supervisors. And I think our letter would be much more powerful when we include the data and the timelines because it's not fair to anyone, it's not fair to police officers and or anyone who's been impacted in an officer involved shooting. And so we'll continue to press. Okay. Senator Gordon, thank you. Chief, thank you. And with that, we will adjourn in memory of two Pasadena's who contributed greatly to Pasadena Betty O, who many of us knew personally and conducted herself in a very elegant and professional manner that was very effective in serving the residents of Pasadena. And Edmund Moore, who struggle with civil rights, for civil rights and pastoring in Pasadena also made a tremendous difference. And so we'll adjourn in their memory. Thank you.