Okay, Mayor, we're recording. Okay. Welcome everybody. I'd like to call this meeting of the John Screcy council to order this Tuesday, May 23rd, 2023 at 7.9 PM. Thank you. At this time I'll call roll. Please. Council Member Tunkey. Here. Council Member Skinner. Here. Council Member Erimelli. Present. Council Member Kaufflin. Council Member D. Biasi? Here. Councillor Member Elwood. Thank you, Mayor. We have a call in this evening. Fantastic. Next item. The next item on the agenda is our Pledge of Allegiance. And we have Scout Allen Lou from troop 143 this evening. If you'll come forward. The flag is on the back wall. If you'll lead us in the pledge. Hello, everyone. Yeah. Hello everyone, yeah, my name is Alan Liu, I'm 13 years old, and I'm from Truple 143. So believe everyone's standing so we can get started with the Puzzle Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and trust this for all. Thank you. Thank you, Scott Luke. Thank you, a time for opening remarks. Okay. So, I don't want to, we've got a lot to do, so I don't want to go too long. But I do just want to recognize a couple things. The John's Creek High School Boys 6A tennis teams won the Georgia High School 2023 tennis state championship. Norfew High School. The girls 5A tennis team won the state championship for the second year in a row. And I would like to give a big congratulations to all of our John's Creek High School graduates. And I don't know why don't you just join me in giving them a big round of applause. And of course, it's the start of summer. The city has a lot of different movies in the park, concerts, and different events. And I just want to encourage you all to take part and go to our website, johnscreakga.gov, where you can find out information about all these things and different things about the city. So, with that, Madam Clerk. Next slide. Thank you, Mayor. The next item on the agenda is the approval of our meeting minutes. You have before you main ninth work session and council meeting minutes. Okay, council, if you had a chance to review the minutes and I said you have any motions. Like to make a motion, Mr. Mayor. All right. Like to make a motion to approve the minutes section item, E1 as presented. Okay, thank you for the motion. Council member D. Biasi, is there a second? Second. Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem for the motion. Councilmember D. Biasi, is there a second? Second. Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem, for the second. Is there a discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all those in favor? Seven zero. Next item. Thank you. The next item is approval of the meeting agenda. Okay. No changes I know of any motions. I make a motion that we approve the minutes as presented. The agenda is presented. Okay. Thank you, Council Member Erimelli for the motion. Is there a second? Second. Thank you, Council Member Elwood for the second. Is there a discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor? Seven, zero. Next item. Thank you. The next item is a consent agenda. We do have three items. An action item, consideration to approve a maintenance contract for Colleague Creek Park with Tri-Scapes in the amount of $209,101 for the remainder of the fiscal year 23. A consideration to authorize a purchase order for Newtown Park lacrosse field lights in the amount of $200,000, $3,500 on Moscow sports lighting. And finally consideration to approve a construction contract for Old Alabama Road, Fiber Connection, for traffic control system in the amount of $378,998 with red with LLC. All right, that's the consent agenda council. Do you have any motions? Mayor, I'd like to make a motion to approve the consent agenda as presented. All right, thank you Mayor Pro Tem. Is there a second? Aye second. Thank you Council Member D. Air Mellie for the second. Is there a discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor? And seven zero. Next item. Thank you, Mayor. The next item on the agenda is the recognition of the winners of the Mayor's Public Art Challenge. I am looking forward to this. All right. All right. Let's get down. This is everyone. Get down on the floor. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go, the students first and then later with the families. But all the students who come out please, same by your, you must be so lucky. All right, so Lane, do you want to show up? Let me just kind of key this up first. So the idea behind the Mary start challenge is one, we wanted to have as good of a partnership between the city and our schools and our students. The possible idea thing is we're very interested in seeing more art and culture take place here at Ducksbury, and also that is possible. And I really know that our place to do that is through our students. And I hope never had a place to do that in a few of our students. And I would be as impressed as I was. I need to talk to you about the painfully applied to this. I'm going to thank you for your time. So I'm going to pull this off. This is the Lamont, she's a great five, a family oats elementary. And you want to tell a little bit about the fixture and just later by the day for this year's mayor's hard competition, was all the world in John's Creek. It was a little bit better. I don't have a job with the community, but I'll go to the college and it's all the way to it. And do you hire a painting like this at the San Jose Exile? Yes. Some of them, all the ancient gunner's thoughts are a lot better here than any other thing. So we're lookingal middle school. We want to remove that. Tell us about your picture. Thank you. Thank you. You're a long job. You are at Northview High School. Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry, if you couldn't hear me, most people say they want me to tone it down a little bit. So you are at Northview High School, and thank you for submitting this, and please show us your piece of art. So each of these boxes kind of repressons a different type of culture and they kind of highlight each like special part of each culture using just their different colors making everything together which with all the colors. I just think that all three, I was just so impressed and I'm just so glad that we're going to get to share this obviously with all of you, but it's going to brighten up City Hall and who knows where else. I don't know. Any of these three, I think I would just love to have in my own home, but thank you all again very much. And then what we'd like to do is get the art winners with the council and with your families. And these politicians, they like to take a lot of pictures. So, so let's come up to the front. Thank you very much. I'm going to go to the captain's area. Well done. Good job. Good job. Hey, gentlemen. Who's the speaker? Hi, Lena. Hi, please. Hi, please. You're welcome. You're welcome. And you're welcome. Squeeze in. You're welcome. And you all want to squeeze in? No one's squeezing a little bit. This works for you. Yeah? Yeah. Anybody here? One, two, three. Thank you. Awesome. And can we get each winner with their families? Of course. What does it mean? I don't think just. Your families come out of the individual ages. I understand. Thank you. We will elementary middle high school. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. I school. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're in your family. You're to I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. So the next item on the agenda is a commendation recognizing our recreation manager Kirk Frons. And oh, so we've got a lot of great people that work here at the city and Kirk Frons has been a stalwart of our parks and recreation and specifically the programming in our parks. And we've got a little proclamation for them. We're going to miss them and to present this is going to be Assistant City Manager Kimberly Grier. She can read the small words and she's known them longer than I have. I have. And I have a very lengthy combination. Kirk has been with us for 16 years. So, oh, sorry. So to go with this combination meeting, I think Jason, if you could help me with that video for you to visualize some of the achievements that I want to tell you about. So a combination recognizing Kirk France. Whereas Kirk France became our recreation manager on January 2nd, 2007, and bids us farewell on this Friday, May 26, having accepted the role of recreation and parks director for Forsyth County. And whereas Mr. France lasting contributions to the city are best told through the lens of our special events and recreational programming. Joining the city just one month after the city began, he inherited no events or programs. He applied his years of experience working in Alpharetta, Mount Piska, and Newtown Recreation to create an initial lineup of events for John's Creek. And whereas, events like the summer movies and concerts have become family traditions for John's Creek residents. What started as small, single events quickly grew. Both have become events in a series. Summer movies are shown in June, July and August. And summer concert series is now a five event series including an independent stay celebration complete with a fireworks show and culminating with a final concert performance of the John's Creek Symphony Orchestra. And whereas, from the largest Holly-Jolly Block Party to the more specialized pitch hit and run competition, Mr. France has a special talent for viewing each event through the events and recreational programming are available for individuals of all different abilities. He has added adaptive recreational programming to help enrich the lives of individuals with disabilities. From the annual adaptive recreation Easter icon to Batchinites and events the Ampest Theater, Mr. France has made sure everyone participate in special events in John's Creek. And whereas Mr. France is also gifted at collaborating, he helped create the original partnership agreements with Newtown Recreation and OC Park Athletic Association. Through those partnerships, John's Creek's youth have options for baseball, softball, T-ball, lacrosse, flag football, and basketball. And whereas, in addition to managing special events and collaborating for athletic programming, Mr. France gave of his time and talents to create the Swing Easy Hit Heart Foundation. What began as a golf scramble in 2010 to cover medical expenses turned into a decade of golf tournaments, raising over $89,000 to support organ transplant patients and their families through the Georgia Transplant Foundation. And whereas Mr. Frans has also given him his time to share his experiences with others through the Georgia Recreation and Parks Association. He has served on the board in several different capacities over the last decade. The GRPA Board has taken note of his many successes and they are a critical reason why the Recreation of Parks Division was named the Statewide Department of the Year in 2020 and he was individually named the District 7 Recreation Manager of the Year in 2020. contributions to the city will continue to resonate for years to come. Although he will no longer be grabbing the microphone at events to energize the crowd, or radowing to our event volunteers, the city will be forever grateful for his contributions. In reaching our community with recreational programming and special events, working with Mr. Frans has been a sincere privilege. And it is an honor to recognize him for his contributions. Now therefore, on behalf of Mayor John Bradbury and the entire City Council, I do hereby commend Corkran's this 23rd day of May for his dedication and service to our community. Thank you. All right, Kurt, here it is. Also, so I learned from Robbie last time, we'll keep it short. I'm a, I'm a blessed man. I'll say, I'll, I'll be even shorter. I may not miss the work, but on this the people. So this was it. Thank you. And also the staff. Yes. Chris Jackson, you want them up? I don't know. Thanks, though. Thank you. Yeah, it's all my pleasure. Yes, what's your problem? Okay. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to stand up. I'm going to ask you to Thank you. The next item is public comment. The first card I have is Shafik. Good evening, Mayor. Council members. Thank you. The next item is public comment. The first card I have is Shafik. Good evening, Mayor. Council members. Good evening, Mayor, Councilmembers. I wanted to come and make a few comments. This past Saturday, the Johns Creek Cricket Association held the Spring Georgia High School cricket final. And I'm happy to report that our own Northview high school was the champion. The match was a very closely contested match between Northview high school and Wheeler high school. It went into extra time and I want to say thank you to Councilmember Aaron and Dilip for coming and handing out the medals to the athletes. The families and the athletes certainly appreciate it that opportunity to not only receive the medals, but receive medals from the public servants of John's Creek. So thank you for doing that. At the same time, I want to say thanks to Kirk for all his dedication to the city of John's Creek over the last 16 years. Both Robbie and Kirk have been instrumental members of our community as it relates to recreation and park. I was fortunate that I met Kirk as part of Leadership John's Creek. he was my roommate for the class of 2016. And thereafter, I got to know him as a Rex and parts manager. So a friendship that developed through Leadership John's Creek furthered itself as we got to know each other. So on behalf of the John's Creek Cricket Association, we have a small token of appreciation for Kirk. So, Conrad, if you could please come in and Kirk, if you could borrow you. And it's a small token of appreciation, which is to recognize and Conrad Rogers is our Secretary of the Board. It says Kirk France and recognition of your support of Cric cricket in the city of John's Creek. So we want to thank you for all your efforts. Thank you for what you have done for the cricket lovers and but more importantly for sports lover in John's Creek. We wish you all the best and we hope that you will continue to have success in your future endeavor. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was the only speaker card I had, Mayor. Does anybody else have a public comment? And if you have a public comment? And if you have a public comment about the zoning application, if you do it during public comment, it won't be part of the record for that hearing, but if you do it later, it will be. Anybody for a public comment? Seeing none, next item. Thank you. The next item is the Manager's Monthly Report. We have City Manager Densmore for presentation. Good evening, Mayor and Council. Quick report this evening. You have the regular report in front of you. Be happy to entertain any questions all night. A few minutes. I'd like to touch on a few items from this past month. As you know, touch truck occurred last Saturday. Great event, huge success. Seems like every year it grows bigger and bigger, which is awesome. Had a chance when I walked out on Friday to check out some of the bigger stuff that was here. It's one of the biggest dump trucks I ever saw in the parking lot. But again, great turnout. And also, I think Jason has a picture. We also speaking of trucks. Not a great took possession of its new air and light truck a couple of weeks ago. So a little bit about this truck that was approved last year. It took to replace of a trailer they were using when we started the city. So this truck allows the firefighters to be able to remotely on the scene, fill their SCBAs. So you can ask what is SCBAs or self-contained breathing apparatus. It will allow them the scenes to be able to fill that up and also maintain them back at the fire stations. And obviously you've seen from it the second part being the light has some big lights that they can light up whether it's going to be an incident scene for the fire or police or another event that they may need so now it's mobile much more adaptive and it'll be based out of obviously Station 64 so that truck is now in service. Parks and rep as you know we made a decision to move towards bringing that in house the director search has been active. We are actually moving towards our final set of interviews later this week, first and next week. So we look to have that position probably actually in place by first of June. The other positions in the Parks and Rec staff have actually been actively recruiting. Resumets being selected for a first round of interviews. positions in the parks and rec staff have actually been actively recruiting. Resumates being selected for a first round of interviews. Hopefully when we have the director in place so that they'll have the opportunity to review and hire their own staff as that starts. So, HAP report that is actually reporting and occurring right on schedule. Open positions you saw last week when I talked about, I was going to remove that from the finance reporting over to HR, because I had a better reflected in what the staff hiring process was to include conditional offers. So right now there's 12 current openings in the city from police fire, inclusive of the parks and rec staff that we now have to hire and a building inspector and community development. But that's down from the previous 17 last month that the police officer, police department actually has made job offers to five candidates since we last talked. Fire department is up on positions right now due to some retirements and people leaving staff to seek other career paths. So with all that being said, happy to entertain any questions, comments and concerns. Sorry I didn't ask you this earlier municipal elections. Have you hired a consultant yet? I can't remember. Yes, that's fine. I communicated that in one of my updates. But yeah, consultant was. Have a night, forgot. No, that's fine. Yes. So he's under contract, Mr. Germany, to provide us consulting going from this point forward up to 2025. Okay. So, yeah. Thank you. Easy day for you. Sure. Thank you. Sure, whatever. Live in the dream, right? All right. Next item. Thank you. Sure. Thank you. Sure, whatever. Live in the dream, right? All right. Next item. Thank you, Mayor. Have a couple of announcements. City offices will be closed Monday, May 29th for the Memorial Day. Planning Commission has a special call meeting Wednesday, May 31st at 7 p.m. There's a public input meeting for Medlock Ridge, State Bridge, Revitalization area area that's Thursday June 1st at 7 p.m. And then we're back here on June 2st, June 6th at 5 p.m. for work session followed by a 7 o'clock council meeting. Okay, thank you. Any other announcements? Seeing none, next item. Thank you, Mayor. This evening we have nothing under old business. The first item on their new business is Ornith's 2023-0509. This is a public caring and consideration of an Ornith submitting the City of Don's Creek zoning map for RZ221010805 State Bridge Road from C1 to conditional C1, changing conditions to allow for an 888 square foot drive through, and we have director Song for presentation this evening. Good evening, Mayor and Council. Just to make sure it's working. There we go. All right, the case before you is RZ220010. The subject property is located at 10805, State Bridge Road. The property is 0.84 acres. The current zoning is C1, the proposed zoning is C1. The request is to change in conditions to allow for an 888 square foot drive through the only Tim Horton's coffee shop. And just further description of the location, it is northeast of the intersection of state bridge road and Aberley Lane. It's bounded by maybe tires and brakes to the north, Aberley township the vision to the east and south, and State Bridge Road to the west. As mentioned, it's currently zone C1. It was persuade to RZ15005, which allow for 48, 4800 square foot retail and commercial use, which exclude a certain use as listed. The site is currently vacant. It is served by a full access curb cut off of Aberley Lane, which is a private drive under the ownership of Aberley Township H.O.A. And then there's also the accessible from adjacent commercial properties, which is served by a right and right out curb cut further up north off the bridge road as shown on the graphic there. So the rezoning case was deferred at the April 10th planning commission meeting to reconsider the site design to address potential traffic impacts associated with Aberley Lane. The applicant did resign the site and routed the drive-through traffic from the right-in right-out curb cut north out the site. And the revised site plan was shared with the H-O-A. As depicted in the graphic above, the 888 square foot drive-through only coffee shop was shown in red. It's surrounded by the outdoor patio shown in yellow. There's a single pickup window that's proposed. That will be fed by a single drive through lane, which provides for stacking of 19 vehicles. There will be two menu boards and also speaker associated with it. That will be located 80 feet from the East property line, the closest point from Aberley Township. And the project will provide 11 parking spaces. They'll also include an 8-foot tall brick wall along the East property line to provide additional buffer and mitigation towards noise and visual impacts. And they'll also show a dumpster pad which is shown in blue, which is located 58 feet from the East property line and screen from Aberley Lane. The revised site plan shows that the routing drive-through traffic from the right and right out curb, Office State Bridge Road, which will limit vehicles entering into Aberley Lane to access drive-through. In addition to the rerouting and the traffic pull management that they have installed as part of the redesign site plan. They will also install a no drive through access from Aberlion sign as shown on the red dot on the bottom there. As you can see, it's highlighted there. What is the red dot represent? The red dot represents the proposed sign that would state no drive through access from Aberlion lane. And the reason why it's very specific to no drive through is because, again, it's an easement that is extended not just to Aberley Township and the subject property, but also to Northbridge shopping center. And so we can necessarily limit all traffic flow, but specific traffic flow is supposed to be with the drive through. The site plan, sidewalks and crosswalks connecting the existing sidewalk along St. Beres Road and Arbor Lane to the walk up window and outdoor patio is proposed. They'll also propose a 15 foot landscape strip and additional 15 foot improvement set back along the east property line, which is referring to this area here with the darker green, with the lighter green, and in between it, that's the eight-foot wall. The 34 landscape strip along State Bridge Road and 10-foot landscape strip along Aberley Lane and the North property line. Soormorter Management provided by, it will be provided by utilizing existing off-site detention pawn and construction on-site by retention arrows will be provided by the applicant The elevations are shown as you can see is a flat roof design architectural elements such a glass windows Very bright coloring would like aluminum siding provide variation in the building facade, which will be compliant with our community standards of the zoning ordinance. Reveying the zoning impact analysis, the first one being the suitability with nearby land uses. The entity of the proposed development is significantly lower than adjacent and nearby commercial properties as evident by the table provided in the presentation. Adjacent commercial uses and the mixed zoning associated with adjacent residential development suggest the proposed commercial use will be suitable at this location. When reviewing impact existing uses, the revised side layout, directional stripping and signage would drive through traffic from the existing curb cut north of the site to a single direction. Realignment of the Sherrod-Axis driveway would slow down pass-through traffic, traveling from the shopping center and Jason properties towards Aberley Lane. The proposed 8 foot tall brick wall would mitigate potential impacts associated with noise and lighting from vehicles in the drive-through lanes. Staff is recommending a condition to replant the 15 foot landscape strip to zoning buffer standards. And the 15 foot improvements up back to landscape strip standards to further mitigate against impacts associated with noise and visual impacts. In 2003, there was a non-exclusive perpetual access easement along Abily Lane, which was granted for pedestrian vehicular ingress and egress between the subject property and state bridge road, especially the shopping center, the commercial properties that are associated along that path. The easement rights extend to all six parcels consisting of various businesses. And the easement contains rights and obligations for a grantor and grantee regarding construction, maintenance, modification, etc. Again, this is based upon a private agreement amongst those property owners. In any associated modifications, disputes, or any modified, again, changes to that agreement in itself, it would be a private matter without the involvement of the city. The property appears to have a reasonable economic use as currently zone. The property appears to have a reasonable economic use as currently zone. Reviewing impacts on infrastructure. It's expected the proposed use is expected to generate 238 daily new trips, including 45 trips during AMP hour and 20 trips during the PMP hour. The proposal will now cause an excessive or burdensome use on state bridge road. Again, this is the closest public right away that we're referring to. A state bridge road is an interior road with 31,100 daily vehicular volume. The 45 cars, including pass by trips, would enter the site during the morning peak hour and 20 cars during the evening peak hour. Based upon the corporate data provided for Tim Hortons, the average processing time for Tim Hort drive-through is approximately two minutes. This would mean it could accommodate up to 60 cars, served within a two hour peak hour window. Vehicles would enter the drive-through lane from the inter parcel connection to the north. Again, utilizing this the right and right- out curb cut off the state bridge road. And as mentioned, there will be a no drive-through access from Aberley Lane in addition to that. It's harder to see here, but that green dot would be additional sign that would require or that would state to exit to the right towards state bridge road. In addition to that, you will see that there is a no do not block the box that would be provided on the road itself along the driveway. So that access is provided safely to those who are the traffic group and that would occur as part of the drive-through and also the access easement. So the subject property is located in OSEA community area. It aligns with the comprehensive plans vision for economic development by encouraging the creation of local business within the city. It is compliant with the comprehensive plans feature land use map which indicates commercial retail shopping centers for the subject property. Coffee shop provides a complimentary use to nearby residential, office and commercial businesses, and it would be in keeping with existing commercial uses found in the area. And it is found to be in conformance with policy and intent of the comprehensive plan. Other considerations to keep in mind, as mentioned, this was rezoned in or modification based upon a changing condition in 2015, which allowed the subject property for a development of a more intensive commercial use up to 4,800 square feet in size. The scale and scope of the proposed importance with the building size of 8808 square feet would provide grounds for approval. Environmental impacts, the site does not contain any environmentally sensitive features, and the applicant has proposed to construct by retention areas on site and to utilize an existing offsite detention pond to meet the city's stormwater management requirements. The offsite detention pond is based upon an agreement that was already exercised as part of development at Aberley Township. So as a review of the recommendation staff did recommend approval of RZ220010 as part of our staff report. During the review of this case by the Planning Commission on May 2nd, they did recommend denial based on 143 vote. And that concludes my presentation and happy to answer any questions if you have any. I would like to reserve questions. Thank you. All right, thank you. So I'd like to open the public hearing for RZ-22-0010. This hearing will allow 10 minutes per side. All those wishes to speak in favor of this matter. Please come forward. After speakers or 10 minutes, we will go to the opposition. Good evening respected mayors and council members. My name is Habith Kutliwala, residing at 118th century park place, P-2CT, Georgia, 30 to 69. I'm agitated from India to USA with American Dream in 2000. And I'm a minority owner owning several business and develop several projects around Georgia. And currently I own about 21 different restaurants, including Popeyes, Czechos, most outweighs with also addition of AT&T details stores around Georgia. I've been granted a ride to open Tim Hortons in state of Georgia and my first Tim Hortons is going to open in Columbus on June 8th, right now scheduled to open on June 8th, right now, scheduled to open on June 8th. And I have a desire and I would like to open up a team Hortons and the most, as we saw in the presentation earlier, diverse city in the state of Georgia, John Screek. And I believe that I believe a city wants to be exception, deserves a team horton. So with that, I'll have my legal counsel, Sean Adams present you all the necessary reasons why you should approve the project. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor Council. My name is Sean Adams, a parker poe Parker Poe 1075 P Street Street in Atlanta. I'm here on behalf of the applicant who's seeking the change in conditions for the 2015 site playing condition for the subject property which currently allows for 400 square foot multi-tenant service and retail use structure. The property remains and has been zone C1 which allows for various retail and service uses including a coffee shop as well as other restaurant businesses with a drive-through. Therefore questions surrounding the nature of the use are not within the scope of consideration for our request. The applicant's proposed changes to the site plan as it relates to the 2015 plan before you are the focus of the request as well as the improvements made by the applicant to address concerns by the community over a series of meetings dating back to the beginning of the year. In addition to adding significant investment, an additional landscaping, break privacy wall, traffic striping, and signage to address neighbor concerns, the applicant most recently flipped the site plan to discourage ingress and egress by patients from Aberley Lane while increasing distances for the dumpster and call boxes from the adjacent residents as opposed to the original plan in 2015. The result is a revised site plan that meets or exceeds a condition to requirements of the 2015 plan as well as a private agreement executed between the current property owner and Aberley Township back in 2015. Thus keeping with the policy intent of the 2015 zoning by allowing for a neighborhood serving use in the property. Despite the applicant's willingness to make changes specifically requested by the community, they have maintained their opposition. The fact remains that the applicant's proposed plan is less intensive than what is currently entitled in the property. Further, the original development was designed and intended to have commercial in the front the proposal. The proposal is not limited to the public. The proposal plan is less intensive than what is currently entitled on the property. Further, the original development was designed and attended to have commercial in the front. In residential to the rear was shared access to Abely Lane by way of multiple private agreements. The access agreement or access easement agreement is not limited to Abely Township as you saw earlier. The applicant but also includes the commercial parcels leading all the way through the shopping center at the corner and any amendment to that agreement requires approval by all the parties, not just the simple majority or super majority. Of those businesses utilizing the access onto Abel Lane, my client is the least intensive use as well as less intensive than the currently entitled use on the property. While the drive-through has been a point of focus for the community, a comparison of equally sized coffee shop within without a drive-through shows an increase of only nine trips to the site during peak hours, which is a two hour period in the morning and to our period in the afternoon. However, under the currently entitled plan, one can have a 1,200 square foot coffee shop in addition to 3,600 square feet of convenience store space which would generate significantly more traffic than the applicant's proposal. While the community made question to trip counts, they are based on the ITE trip generation manual which is utilized by both government and the private sector and determining traffic impacts by certain use types including cities such as John's Creek. The applicant's proposed site plan has been designed to queue in excess of 20 cars far more than other similar drive-through uses along State Bridge Road, which has been reviewed and recommended for approval by City staff. The applicant is looking to make economic use of the last undeveloped parcel of a nearly 20-year-old plan development, which originally contemplated neighborhood serving commercial, Fronting State Bridge Road, with residential end fill as you move away from the commercial corridor. The applicants proposal aligns with the original intent of the development and provides a less intensive use with more protections for the neighbors than the currently approved site plan and the existing businesses developed before the subject property. Sinsant just another coffee shop. This is a small scale economic development proposal that seeks to introduce an internationally recognized business to the North Metrolana area by way of Johns Creek. The nature of this case is even caught attention of nearby jurisdictions who have reached out to the applicant, offering to help locate them within their boundaries with less red tape, as they see the economic benefits of being among the first in the Metro Atlanta to attract this business. John's Creek prides itself on being business friendly and wanting to be the exception. Before you is a highly successful minority owned business owner who desires John's Creek to be the first to house a Tim Hortons in Metro Atlanta. He has made significant accommodations to ensure that his proposed site plan change not only meets the intent of the city's comp plan in 2015 zoning conditions, but also addresses concerns raised by the community. Despite these efforts, the community has continued to oppose and has resorted to mostly driven tactics in order to an effort to distract from the scope of consideration for this proposal. The applicant is requesting that you continue to be the exception and look to the future of John Screek as envisioned by your comp plan as well as the original intent of this development and approve the request for the change in 2015 site plan condition to allow for the first importance of Metro Atlanta. We are in agreement with staff recommending conditions and we like to reserve the balance of our time for your bottle and I'm happy to answer any questions. We'll reserve our questions. All right. Thank you. Anybody else who would like to speak? In favor? All right. Seeing none, let's have those that are opposing. You also have 10 minutes. Good evening, Mayor City Council. My name is Karen Salimum. I'm a homeowner in Aberley Township, and I've lived there for nearly 13 years. I've lived in Johns Creek since 1995. I'm here this evening representing not only myself, but 300 plus homes and 500 plus residents of Aberlietownship. Many of whom are here tonight, and I thank you all for being here again tonight. This is our third or fourth time coming to City Hall. So I thank you for that support. In the Salmon, I do have to remind you, unfortunately, the rules are, you have to face the- You have to address the council. Thank you. As well as I also represent the Homeowners Association Board of Directors. I do want to thank the City Council for the opportunity to speak tonight and would like to also thank Mr. Abid, who has demonstrated willingness to listen to our concerns and to attempt to address them. The site plan that's before you is his latest effort to do so. Nonetheless, his petition suffers from a number of deep flaws and we ask that it not be approved. First, the volume of traffic which would be created would allow Aberlilane effectively to become a commercial road, even a commercial drive-through, and it would create safety risks for our children. I'd like to note, as it's been said before, that Aberlilane is a private residential driveway. Yes, there is an easement and we're aware of the easement that was entered into between the commercial developer and the developer of our neighborhood before any of the homes were built. If you look at the access and the maps that you have seen, you can see it's just a small service road. It's intended for incidental use, for convenience. It's not a major in and out driveway to be used for intensive use of the commercial property, nor as a drive-through. Second, the volume of traffic that would be caused by even a modest incremental increase in the traffic would obstruct school buses, emergency vehicles, deliveries, and our residents from entering and exiting the neighborhood. Third, the traffic productions are significantly understated, and despite what council has suggested, there is evidence that supports that it's not just simply an emotional plea. Fourth, even assuming the accuracy of these projections, it was the desire of the city council in 2015, when they approved the subdivision that created this particular plot to divert traffic away from Aberlilane, recognizing that even more traffic along this private driveway was not acceptable. And finally, fifth, the comprehensive plan for the O.C. community area where this parcel resides does not contemplate a drive-through, especially adjacent to a residential area. I want to be very clear, our opposition is not to a coffee shop on this piece of land, not at all. It is in opposition to a drive-through that will literally be at the front gate and in the backyards of our homes. The residents of Aberdeley Township are very concerned for the safety of our children. I have a bus driver from Fulton County who is a resident of Aberley Township here with us tonight. We have 24 middle school students who get their bus every morning at the corner of Aberley Lane and Staprid Road. They'll be more of them when school starts again in August. To get to the bus stop, they walk along and many of them across Sabrily Lane. These are middle schoolers. For any of you who have raised or currently have middle schoolers, you know what I'm talking about. Their heads are down, their texting, their heads are in their phone, they're talking, they're not paying attention to their surroundings. This is simply an adolescent behavior. You know how, you understand how traffic along this road, especially traffic that's in a hurry to get their coffee, to get to work, and not traffic that's associated with or has a vested interest in our neighborhood presents a clear risk to our children. I'll also mention that both our middle school and our high school track teams cross over Aberlilane along Stapridge Road every day when they practice. Additional traffic would also impair the ability of emergency vehicles as well as deliveries, guests and residents to easily quickly enter the neighborhood. You can see in this photo how it takes only a few cars to block the road, which is quite narrow and which would not block not only block access to our neighborhood but also block access into the commercial shopping center that we're talking about. Not only would there be blockages into Aberley Township but also exiting, it only takes four cars stacked in the lane between the entrance drive and state bridge road to block the entrance drive and create a backup. Now the applicant has submitted projected, I'm sorry, I didn't advance my slide. This is what I was just speaking over about the blockages when exiting. The applicant has submitted projected traffic counts based on published and generally accepted industry data. That's all fine. However, that data has nothing to do with this particular coffee shop, this particular location, and the consumption patterns in this particular area. As you know, there's a Starbucks that's not far to the west of the proposed location on State Bridge Road, and the applicant previously submitted a traffic study from that location to support his position. So we went to Starbucks and we asked their district manager if they would share their customer data. And surprisingly, he did. You know what we learned? We learned that the real data for Starbucks far exceeds anything that is suggested in the applicant's projections. In fact, almost six times the number of customers. And when you look at this data in comparison, which is on this slide here, even a superficial review makes it clear that either Tim Hortons will be an utter failure with the numbers that they're suggesting. Or they'll capture only a tiny fraction of a coffee-drinking patrons along Staperidge Road. Or Tim Hortons' data is not credible at all, and I suggest the latter. We performed some simple calculations based on Tim Horton's own published data, and it's clear that applicant's data is just what I suggested, not credible. As you can see here, based on trip counts and published him Hortons average order value, he would have a negative revenue flow. So I'm not asking you to dive into the financials. What I'm asking you to do is to look at them and question the traffic counts. And when they do not support a financially healthy enterprise, you heard from a bid that he owns 21 other restaurants. He knows what it takes to operate a financially stable and successful business. It's worth noting that in 2015, the City Council sought to move traffic away from Aberley Lane. That was a big concern to them. The light that went up on Jones Bridge Road to divert traffic from the Goodwill Shopping Center that would allow them to come out onto Jones Bridge and then make a left onto State Bridge Road was a very big factor in their decision. I would suggest that if this proposal was approved today, we'd be allowing what the City Council previously did not want to occur. I would also suggest that the drive-through is not consistent with the comprehensive plan. Our OC community area is designated as pedestrian friendly and bicyclist friendly, and the adjacent Goodwill Shopping Center is contemplated, quote, as an ideal small village setting that could support a town park, cinema, small local retail shops, and restaurants with residential units above. and I'm going to explain to you that this is a very important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and important and community joining it. I'd suggest that in fact the plan for closes the idea of a drive-through, the idea of local shops and low-intensity housing suggests something quite different than a fast-paced bustling drive-through that's not a local shop, it's an international coffee chain, the largest in Canada looking to be the largest in the United States and to unseat Starbucks. Members of the City Council, I deeply appreciate the time that you've given me this evening to present our point of view for your consideration. I've trust that we've demonstrated to you that this application will create volume of traffic that far exceeds what's being projected, that the traffic would place our children at risk, and pair the ability of emergency vehicles, school buses and for measly entering and exiting the neighborhood, and it's inconsistent with the comprehensive plan. I've lived in John's Creek longer than we've been a city, and in driving around the city, there's nowhere that we have found that drive-through uses a private driveway as a means of ingress and egress, or that's located just feet from residences and their bedrooms. Please don't make this the first one. We don't oppose a coffee shop. We certainly understand that this lot will be home to a business. We hope that it's a business that's local to John's Creek and will contribute to the nature and character of our city and the OC community area. We look forward to patronizing it as we do in Vans Otto, maybe it's tire, and the other shops, landmark cafe among them in the Goodwill Shopping Center. We are opposed to a drive-through, and the upsurge in traffic that it will bring quite literally to our front door and into our backyards. I ask that you put people before profits, and I thank you. And I reserve any time that is remaining. Thank you very much, Miss Salman. Would the applicant like to utilize any of your time for a rebuttal? Thank you, Mayor. And if I may, why I'm going through these, if we can go back to my slide, I'd like to show something there. First off, there's reference again, made to an easement. There's an easement and a cost sharing agreement that's in place between the properties here, as well as hourly township. And that was put in place in 2003 when hourly township was built. Those parcels were zone commercial at that time. The shared retention or storm-wide attention was a part of that cost sharing agreement. So to articulate that there was not an intent by the developer for that hourly lane to be used by anything but a service road for the residential, I believe, would be somewhat flawed. That access was there from the beginning with that easement in place from the beginning. So I believe the intent was indeed to use that signal to provide eastbound traffic flow from all the way Jones Bridge shopping center all the way down through this parcel to be able to go out out of traffic signalized intersection right there. Also I know this was mentioned while I go to the end of my presentation here. Previously the community had mentioned that during peak hours, especially in the morning, an effort to offload the stress on the gate. They actually keep their gate open during peak hours in the morning. So back up as a part of their gate would not be an issue for cars going in and out of there. We also did propose a cut into their median to provide a left-hand turn lane. So there's clear route all the way through. And of course, this is all private properties, so it would have to provide a left-hand turn lane. There's clear route all the way through. And of course, this is all private property, so it would have to be a private agreement between them and the community turned that down, so we did offer a solution to that as well that they opposed. But in addition to that, what you see before you here is the current entitlement up at the top for the ITE shows you the trip counts for a convenience store in a 1200 foot coffee shop without a drive-through. And that's actually contemplating a convenience store that's a thousand square feet less than what is otherwise entitled partially because of parking space requirements to make sure that we meet that with the code. So that's a buildable trip generation summary right there that is more than three times what the applicant is proposing before you tonight. So as we talk about traffic and the concerns we certainly want to make sure it's safe in grass and egress and the applicant's proposal not only generates less traffic as indicated earlier and as shown before you right now but by virtue of the accommodations that the applicant has made over the last few months he's provided additional protection such as steering the traffic away from his site to go into that right end right out versus coming in an hourly lane. Anything built on his site today by right will come right through hourly lane. There are no additional protections to deter that traffic from making that right into hourly lane and left into the access road. Nor can we shut it off because of there's five other property owners. That's a part of that easement as well. Again, this is a less intense use than the Mavis Advance Auto Part, some of the uses up at the top that are also utilizing that access. So we do believe that we are providing more safe alternative to a commercially-zoned property to allow the development of a site that's been sitting near vacant for more than 20 years to make economic use. And with that, we would also ask that you would consider all those factors. As you take your vote this evening, we'll be happy to answer any questions. All right. Thank you very much. Also, I will say we do have our traffic engineer here to the extent that you have traffic-related questions based off of what was brought up, you'll be happy to answer this for you. Okay. Would the opposition like to utilize it in your time? Can you give us a moment, Janet? No, I can't. But you'll probably get a chance to say your piece for Garbles. All right. Is there anyone else that wishes to speak against? Or four? Okay. Okay. Sorry. Sorry about that. I already part of the opposition. I'm sorry. You may have to go back. I'm sorry. All right. Then I will close the public hearing and council of fours open with your pleasure. Questions? I have a question for Ben, or director song I'm sorry. What's the overall square footage of the footprint, not just the building? You mean the actual property or? No. The parking, the drive through lanes, the footprint that they would be using other than the 888 square foot building. I'll have to look that up and get back to you then. Can you just bring that up? Do we have a picture of the revised site plan? Is that what we've been looking at? Yeah. Jason, it's a good. Do you have your pointer? So can you point out the separate right in, right out on state bridge? Yeah, I know. That's close. This won't actually have it, but let me go back to it. Let's see. Oh yeah, actually we do. So the separate right and right out. So it's really not on the parcel. Okay. And it was intended to serve the three parcels that were developed out eventually with this one being left vacant. So it's not this it's not the middle it's the yes it's the last one is the first square Directly adjacent to the shopping center So I have a few questions. I don't know what your questions are So can you describe what the other uses are that would be available to The property owner today under the current zoning? that would be available to the property owner today under the current zoning. So, based upon the 2015 rezoning, there were some exceptions that were included as part of the approval. The exclusions are billboards, funeral homes, parking lots, personal care homes, assisted living facilities, and service stations, so gas stations. So, that's what's not available. That's prohibited. Right. So, give me some more. So I want to step in your big brain to give me some thoughts on what could possibly go there. Luckily, I don't have to use much of my brain. It's listed here in our zoning ordinance. All right. Which makes my life easier for myself. That's what I was looking for. Yes, sir. So indoor amusement, I mean, it's not necessarily large enough per se, but it could be a bowling alley. Some other end or amusement type that could be allowed. Art galleries, assembly hall, catering business, obviously it could be a place of worship. It could be a medical clinic, their care facility, financial establishment, gymnasium. financial establishment, gymnasium, obviously in terms of the list. And this is not to say that it may be appropriate in terms of the size and scale of the property, but this is what is permitted generally in C1. Hotels, workout spaces, health clubs, laundromat, a dry cleaning service, lawn service business, libraries, communication services, motels, museums, pet grooming, photo studio, plant nursery. It could be also a convenience shop without gas. So it could be a convenience store. Any other retail store or shop that would classify in the general sense restaurant. It could also be technically a recycling center for collection under the C1's only district. Okay. Okay. And my last question is not necessarily for you. It is for, I guess I I beat, or the attorney. What are, if you want to come up to the microphone, please? Probably a beat, I think is going to be necessary. Sorry, I'm calling you by your first name. It's fine. We're on a first name basis now. Oh, it's okay. What is your plan in terms of, or what are you willing to do in terms of traffic management? How far are you willing to go to address this? So again, like I had mentioned in the previous CD Council or the Planning Commission meeting that particularly when we open we are willing to hire like a police officer, private or from the city of Johns Creek and probably hire them to manage a traffic a police officer, a private or a publicity of John Screek, and probably hire them to manage a traffic as long as it's required or as long as it's deemed necessary. And so would that be the entire time you're open or just in the morning? No, and probably the peak hours of the coffee businesses in the morning, but as I said, in the beginning, it will be as deemed as necessary. If there's a traffic all said, in the beginning, it will be as deemed as necessary. If there's a traffic all day, then of course, I just give you an example. I opened up Popeyes in America's Georgia in 2022. We hired a local police officer for about four weeks. After four weeks, it was not necessary to have a police officer. So the... And so if you hired a police officer to direct traffic... Yes. ...this coffee location, what do you see them directing? What do you see them trying to change in the behavior? Well, again, you know, of course they will be directing them to the main thing would be to the other if somebody is trying to go through this and managing the traffic flow mainly to making sure that the people are not using the ably down sweep and they are going through the right-in right out option. You have a police officer standing there telling people coming to your business to please turn around and go back out on the paper? Not really that way. Of course, the sign to people will come because of the, they want to have a coffee. But I guess initially to manage a traffic, it would be, I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, of course, in order to manage a traffic, we can go as it's like it will be as far as necessary. It's not, it's deep necessary. All right, thank you. That's all my questions. I have one question for him if I may. Why the drive-through? Why not just an indoor coffee shop? Well, now the drive-through. Nowadays, thanks to pandemic, but drive through, including Starbucks or any business, even like a sandwich shop like Jimmy John's or they were considered more of a, now they don't open any more stores without a drive through. Like even a firehouse up so without a drive through, it's, I think we learned a lesson. Thank you. So I've got a question for you. Director's song, please. So on the parcel here, we're looking at the new drive through access sign that's out there. Along with the do not block the intersection and block the box here. Is that because it's private property? Is that legally enforceable? It won't be something that we would essentially enforce. Those are just like any sort of directional signs or any other stop signs that you may have on private property. The enforcement action was still technically fall on the private property owner. But those signages are indications as to how traffic flows should occur. And hopefully those are sort of the signs that traffic would abide by in terms of when they're trying to access the sign. Sure, okay. I speak with the attorney, please. Thank you. So in the preparation of the site plan, have you had significant conversations with the other property owners on the parcel, the Mavis and the other four or five property owners there, regarding the traffic that you're proposing to direct through in front of Mavis, because based on just your trip counts, it's a significant amount of traffic through Mavis. And no one a service center, that's a potentially an issue in itself, moving cars in and out of bays, back and forth. I mean, if you had those conversations. Not had direct conversations with them, but the easement itself addresses a lot of that. I mean, this was meant to be a non-exclusive access easement for vehicular pedestrian access, both ingress and egress for all the parcels. And they've been all been zone C1 with the potential for these uses all along and the idea was, you know, for that riding right now as the director had indicated, that ride in right out was meant to serve all three parcels. Originally, it was under common ownership right and it's so they got broken up. So that intent was there in addition to the use of hourly lane. You understand, there's a right to use. But operationally as far as how you're actually driving traffic through that right in, right out curb cut, if you will. And the stacking of cars, if you will, potentially in front of Mavis. You have not addressed that specifically. In other words, the owner of that franchise, either Mavis, how are they gonna react to all this, this traffic going through their parking lot now? That's one question. Second question is, have you had significant conversations with the other parcel owners about potentially blocking that easement, that non-exclusive perpetually easement? Have you had opportunities to discuss that with them? We have not spoke with the other owners. We also are not planning, if you look at the site plan to block the easement. We are stacking about twice as many cars and anticipate having any given time in the lane solely on our property. That was one of the things that we worked out with staff on the front end. The original site plan was larger, had indoor seating as well. So it had more parking as a byproduct of that and it only stacked about 12 to 15 cars. And even though from what we have seen that would still be sufficient to fully stack on our site at staff's recommendation, we shrunk the building to make it where we can stack essentially double what we would require or need potentially in a peak period. So that doesn't happen. When you see on that site plan that you see all the cars there, it's not that we anticipate having 20 cars in the queue nonstop. We're just trying to show how many cars we can stack in the event that we do have a mad rush and do so without disrupting the flow through there because the easement does require that we maintain that flow. And additionally, that's not a parking lot. That's an interpersonal access for the road part of it right there so as long as you're coming from Jones Bridge all the way down that has to be that has to remain as if it's a two-lane road coming all the way through and does the easement allow you to potentially or temporarily block the easement requires that they have two-way access all the time I would also posit to you that again, what we are proposing is about a third of the traffic volume that what's currently entitled today. That was also part of that easement. The day of also had time and consideration to look at for those property owners. I've mured in a minute. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Bob? There you go. They're multiple considerations. I think I don't need you. I don't need you. I think I need them. Yes. As council with all the respect, I'd like to reserve the right to respond on his behalf. When we are studying this case, the multiple considerations. One is your ability to run business at an approved site, a legitimate business. On this bench are people who are very, very interested in the safety of the citizens of Janskrieg. I understand you revised your plans. I also understand that me as a citizen, I don't know what is the understanding within developer and the builder. Normally our due diligence doesn't extend that far and we are paying for it in my particular guess. So, but that is the my point is I would like to see some definite effort to mitigate reduce the traffic at least during 7 to 9 Which is your peak hour, am I right? Yes, let's pick up Right? Yes, let's speak over. Seven to nine in the morning is the speaker in the evening is now I'd like our director to come. Can you just place the put the way how they stacked up the diagram where all the cars are stacking up? Yeah, based on that I'd like to ask Mr. Abhid or you some questions. How many school buses exit or egress from this private road? So I would direct it to a traffic engineer. I think my next question is to you. There are two school buses that serve the community in the community and then there are two school buses that serve the right turn line. They stop in the right turn line along state bridge road and then that's where the students board the buses. And that is middle school elementary or high school. The two buses inside the community are elementary. The two buses on the right-turn line are the middle school and the high school. Okay, so given what Starbucks is projecting, I understand there may be a slightly bigger than one on Regal Cinema or anywhere else. Yours is just $888. If you look at your stack you say you've already got about 20 plus there, 20 cars? Yes there's space for 20 on site. So that means it's 10 minutes you should be done with your 45 cars. The drivers are going to come and they're going to come through the line and then they're going to exit the site. So it's not 45 cars arriving at one time. I'm just thinking in the morning peak hours, what I'm thinking. Sorry, I didn't. My idea is, are your numbers reflective of this? I mean, if you're putting, in the morning, I was given some stats how much time you take per transaction. Per transaction. Can you speak to that? Yeah. So the trip generation manual that's been referenced, it's the Institute of Transportation Engineers, they take data from real world sites across the country, kind of brand agnostic. It's not just Starbucks, it's not Tim Hortons. I'm so sorry. We are very, very familiar with that. Okay. We Moe it is not the first zoning case we're hearing. Yes. But my point is 45 seems rather low. If you look at 20 cars backed up there in a matter of maximum half an hour your peak or should be done. What what is mentioned as is the trip generation. Essentially, it's the number of vehicles entering in. If you look at what we wrote in our staff report. What we wrote in our staff report is that the average time for the processing of a vehicle coming through and being processed through that drive through line. It would equate to about 60 vehicles within an hour. So we're talking about two hour windows, so it could be possibly 120. But the ITE, again, it's not talking about specific vehicles. It's the number of trips. Essentially, it's 45 trips, but I think we, essentially the total is about 190 trips altogether. Yes. Not specific vehicles, it's with how much trips. I have, can you give me the remote where you can point out? Can you, the same diagram? Yeah. The same diagram which you said. Yeah. See, my idea is to reduce the traffic conflicting with Abelil and Road. Our point is, can you just go back to the police? That's stacking. Yeah. If you see when they're coming out, when they're coming out, there is always a chance that these folks will do a U-turn and come back in there. To mitigate that, I've seen when we do this right-hand, right-hand lanes out, you actually pave the road in such a fashion that there is no U-turn coming back. Can you consider putting a kind of mango-shaped concrete pad so that the person is naturally flowing going north? Is it possible? This is getting into the private easement. We have to maintain full access, ingress, and ingress. So anything that we do, the limit, the ability of the cars to come out, not only impacts us, because we're just one of six entities utilizing that accept the curb cut. Anything we do to limit that also impedes them and be a violation of the easement agreement. I understand. Can you just show me, can you point out what I'm talking off? Yeah. So, what I believe Councilman Erimilli is referring to is essentially this point right here where the cars are exiting out of the driveway. As you can see what he's referring to is the fact that there is a curb that comes out obviously part of the patio, but I think what he's referring to if you could follow sort of the cursor or sort of have a curb, that sort of a concrete curb, that sort of, well, I can't really do it here, but it sort of flares outwards. It's a direct traffic towards the right. So if you go out a little, so all cars naturally turn out. We're not suggesting, my idea is not to suggest to block incoming traffic. The next question which I'm talking of is, there's also a conflict of traffic there. People coming exiting the shopping center, versus how you, my point is, how will you separate out? These guys are exiting and somebody's coming in. How will you separate the traffic which is coming from the north? One thing I'll state, one thing that you mentioned as a suggestion in terms of that shape, a curb with a concrete curb, sort of essentially forcing vehicles to exit out of the drive through towards the right and right out. I think that's appropriate. We don't necessarily want to get into sort of the engineering at the Dias procedure right now because we do have to understand they can't, it's going to be difficult for any business to determine who acts as which business while accessing this easement. Okay. If you're suggesting security person to be there, where do you plan to put him? Because our interests ideally, we do not want any right turns into Abelilane, correct? During at least the peak hours. So, again, the whole idea from the beginning, from the first plan to this plan is always an idea that we want minimum traffic to come through the Aberlilane and maximum traffic to come from the state from the other road. And if you look at this road, and as I said, it's not even if somebody wants to make a U-turn, you can't stop somebody of doing it if they want to do it. You wonder when you put a curb-curt, or whatever you want to do, right? But at the same time right now, it's not going to be easy for somebody to make a U-turn. Okay, let me amplify what I'm saying. Right. If somebody's coming going north and he wants to turn into Abily Lane to enter your coffee shop. Right. How do we prevent that during the peak hour time? During the peak hour time again, because there is going to be, already you have a cars in there, so they will not be able to go through the drive-through directly. They will have to go around and come back. And that's what I said, that no, it's going to be, we'll have a sign over there saying no drive-through access. That's where I'm thinking. If you can position your police person there, so anybody turning right, who's a resident there can be allowed person who's trying to access the coffee shop should be directed to go forward absolutely that's the plan right? initially that would be the plan to do it and your signage where is it? could you tell us where exactly the signage is so that these people don't I mean customers don't naturally turn into this abelite township you're showing right there in blue no that is fine. The main marquee sign for them. Oh, the main sign would be located right over here along Snape Bridge Road. Again, if you put it as close to the Abelite Township Road, there is a chance that people will turn right. If. The northernmost part. Yeah, so signage would be based on the signage ordinance whatever that we will submit a signage and it's going to be based on the approval from the sign ordinance whatever the sign ordinance allows us. The 15 feet setbacks which these people are doing both in terms of landscape as well as shrubbery is that exact minimum required or are they giving us more. It's beyond the requirement. And so what I mean by that is the first 15, as mentioned, the dark green. It's typically a landscape strip, but we're making them planted buffer standards. And in addition, you got the A-foot wall and then the additional 15 feet behind that is additional landscaping. Sounds good. And one of the residents also said, Director, can you just say that? Director, sir. Director, sir. One of the residents also expressed concern about emergency vehicles. How much of a consideration is that? I mean, I can't say that there is not a legitimate concern to a certain extent. The width of the driveway on both sides, it's about 22 feet from curb to curb. So typically our typical lane in our road is 12 feet wide. So essentially it's 11 feet if you were to divide it up. Right now it's not striped. The only striped portion is on the, you would say the southern portion leading out of Abily towards the light. And there's a small strike portion that divides the right turn lane with the left turn lane movement. Essentially, that goes to show that there is enough room to separate it, but it's not striped. So, as mentioned in the past before by the applicant, obviously with the pictures that they shared, those are stage pictures. Not to say that's not reality, it's very much possible because when you don't have striped lanes, people could drive right down the middle of the road potentially. If there is an emergency vehicle, if there isn't vehicle sort of stacked waiting to get into a drive-through lane, the potential is there for a vehicle to move to one side for an emergency vehicle potentially to pass through. In every situation may not be the case again just because it's not straight. Okay, another quick question is. Yes sir. When they are exiting from maybe this tire shop, can they safely merge to the left if they want to go to Jones Bridge Road? They want to go to the Jones Bridge Road. If you're saying traveling from Aberley Lane towards Mavis? No, no. They're coming from Mavis. They're aggressing this team portions. My point is, we are always fighting traffic once part of the other. If they're exiting this, add maybe tires. And if that person wants to go to Jones Bridge, does he have enough? Oh sure, sure. On the way length to merge left and? It's going to vary. So you're saying if they're exiting out of the right and right out, to get onto state bridge road, to get to Jones Bridge road, the intersection with Jones Bridge road to make a left, to go south on Jones Bridge? I mean, depending on how heavy traffic may be, the potential is there depending on that if there's a lot more traffic, then it's going to be much more difficult for vehicles to be able to merge all the way to the left to the left turn lanes. When traffic is lighter, that possibly is obviously much more greater in terms of being able to do so. Okay. Thank you. While, thank you. While you're there. Yes. And so the staff's analysis is that under the current zoning, the property is economically viable. Yes, sir. Okay. Okay. Next. Anybody else? I got some questions. I guess this would be directed to the applicant. I don't know who best would answer this, but I'm curious. So in your documentation, you say you have the capacity queued 29 cars here. I just have it. So about 20. We had an earlier iteration that would go to 27. But you have 29 in your revised. I'll answer this just for clarification. So the previous initial site plan that they showed that essentially derived the main entrance from Aberlay, they showed us that in your 29 vehicles, What the revision is showing 19? And then so I guess this is more for the traffic engineer. I'm just curious. So there's been some questions, questioning the bracity of some of the models data. And I'm starting to have some of the similar questions because in your revised trip plan, you have for lack of a better term, a meta analysis of 62 other cases of examples of like this across the country, correct? Right. And so with the AM rate, we have an average of a shade over 100 with a standard deviation of 40. So I have a difficult time understanding why the estimate is at 45 when the most generalizable data should put us around 120 to 80 or so. Does that make sense? Which data are you referring to? Is it in the? So it's in your revised trip plan. You all provided those meta-analyses for AMP-hour, PMP-hour, and total weekday. And that was some of the other concerns of mine with the total weekday, with the estimate of 238 total trips. We have an average of 533 with as much higher standard deviation, but the minimum was 309 Is this the chart that was in council's PowerPoint because I actually wanted to see that again, too No, it's the trip Trip generation revise this page. Yeah generation revised. This page? Yeah. Yeah. So the way the trip work works, the square footage multiplied by the average rate. So 888 square feet multiplied by the 101 got us to the 90 for the AMP hour. So how would that be, so that's not net, that does not include pass-by trips? Right. That does not include pass-by trips? Right, that does not include pass-by trips. So the pass-by is taken for vehicle that is on state bridge road. Pass-by reduction would be a vehicle that's on state bridge road today. They may be going to a different coffee shop. They wouldn't then turn in at the right and right out and visit the coffee shop and then continue on their journey. So 90 and then you take the pass-by reduction to get down to 45. But even if we were to, so my concern is the capacity at this site, right, like being able to handle that. So if we include the pass-by, so like pass-by is generally used for the impact on the overall. Sorry, I think I might have said that incorrectly or unclearly. 90 includes pass-by traffic. It does not include the reduction. So it's 90 includes net new trips and pass-by trips. There's 45 new trips and 45 pass-by trips. So the meta analysis is not including that new? So the total 90 new trips in the peak hour, that's 45 and 45 out, that is gross trips, passed by plus the net. Well then how, so I'm still unclear how we got the 238 from the 530, even if we do the 0.8 multiplier, we'd still be around 480. Yeah, so then 533. It's only six studies. Yeah, so 238 is the INS versus the OUTS. So 475 is the total. That includes both traffic entering the development and exiting the development. So once you look at it, it's 238 cars that come in, 238 cars that come out for a total of 475. And that number includes the pass-by trips. Correct. So you're only expecting 20 or so net new trips in the AMP tower or so? It was 23 net new AM trips entering the development. OK. So AMP towers defined as the two hours, like that's accommodating. You're expecting only 45 trips during that two hour period. AMP hour is the one hour during the two hour window. So the way the trip gen manual references it is that it's 7 AM to 9 AM. But 8 1 hour within that window. So it's actually 90 cars in that two hour period. That's the peak hour. And so it may be a little bit less on one end or less on another end. It's not saying that for the full two hours that it's gonna have that generation per hour is just saying for one hour in the window. But you could. You could possibly, depending on the use. Right? Do you all have the data on the, so the processing time is average of two minutes, but do you have any like deviation? Say those rough mornings, you can't get a couple orders, right? It starts exacerbating the time for all the orders, correct? And then so you could have, without the deviation, I can tell you, but you could have I will without the deviation I can tell you but you could have Significant queuing issues on you know every fifth day or something like that Based on the deviation of the processing time does that make sense that that does make sense that line up Well it makes sense so like there could be a capacity issue 20 to 30% of the time and And so that's my concern. So I loved him Hortons. I love coffee. I love donuts, obviously. But I just have trouble, like if people feel the same way I do about coffee and donuts, I have a hard time believing that we won't see some of those capacity issues come to play, which would put significant hardships on Mavis, Aberley Township, and around that corridor, in terms of movement, in state bridges, one of our most traversed corridors. And so introducing that could potentially make that even stickier one to two days a week. And I do understand that concern. That's definitely a very valid concern. That's why we went and we observed the Starbucks down the road, Old Milton Parkway, just inside the city of Alfa Reda from the Johns Creek line. And during the morning peak hour, that Starbucks had a max queue of 12 vehicles. And we verified that twice more after that initial observation date and so based on that that's where we're comfortable with a 20 vehicle storage because that Starbucks that's real world data of real John's Creek residents Alpharetta residents only Max Q was 12 vehicles But that didn't have a- That's not a drive-through Yes, it's a Starbucks with a drive-through Yes, it has a drive through. Yes. It's a Starbucks with a drive through? Yes. It has a drive through. But it does not have a committed access road that you have to allow movement between. It's on a shared driveway. That one next to Pepperonis is that the one who's referring to- Yes, by the Pepperonis. Yeah, but that doesn't have a committed access road. That's more of a parking lot. There's the parking lot. Is the parking lot, is the area that I'm having a point? Yeah, so that's essentially what I'm struggling to you, my friendly engineer, is that the more successful you are in peak hours, the potential more harm it could do for that local OC community area. So it's, there's going to be a loser depending on, like it's in-burst, right? So you hit the, you go beyond your peak hour numbers, you're getting better revenue. That's good for Tim Hortons, but it's going to make a cluster for our neighbors and commuters of that area at least fair amount of times enough times that we would expect to get contacted. And that's where I believe Abin mentioned that they do the officer for until it's no longer needed. So if the development takes off and has way higher the friction than any other development in the area, then he's gonna need the officer for longer. But it beyond the officer saying don't enter, I don't know. And that's kind of what I've been flurting with the line. I mean, that's, I came in here, you know, leaning towards based on what I read that this should probably be approved. But one of the things that concerns me is I just don't think human nature is going to bear out in the real world where you know, police officer that's going to be basically telling them no go away. I mean, you know, it's all great to say that, yeah, I guess you could wave them in when there's not traffic, but in that morning time, there's going to be, I think a fair amount of traffic, but people going to work and everything else. But just, just, we're evident to share my care. Yeah, I'm having to share my care. So just the fact that, just speaking out loud in my opinion, just the fact that we're trying to shoehorn this development and offer an officer potentially eight hours, that in itself may lend itself to why? Why are we trying to shoehorn this into a situation where we need an officer to manage the traffic that we can't engineeringly manage it? So it causes me to pause with this with this development of Tim Hortons I'm from up north. So I frequent Tim Horton in Canada, all over the New York area. I love the franchise. It has a great reputation. The food is wonderful. The applicant is going to be extremely successful with this franchise. I just don't know if this is the perfect location for Tim Horton. And I always, coming back to Mr. Mayor's point here, any development that we approve, and we're very pro-business in John's Creek. We've approved just about every business applicant that has to provide an uplift to the community, both in what it delivers and how it fits into the character of the area of the community. And I'm listening to my colleagues here, and we all got some fundamental questions, and what it's going to do to the other six parcels, what it's going to do to the citizens that touch this property. And how do we make this work? And I don't know if there's an answer for it. And this is, if I can just make one more comment on the data. And then I'd like to get this. And here, you go ahead, I'm sure. Well, I was just going to say if you're successful, so looking at 62 studies, average rate even if we take it by the multiplier, say you're in the 70th, 75th percentile, or so with that, you're looking at 130 trips in that morning peak hour. And so compared to that 90, which isn't too impactful in terms of the actual number, but for this site, it is very impactful. See what I'm saying? So like if you're in the top tier relatively, not even the top tier, we're just talking about the, not about the final quartile. If you're around the 75th percentile, you'll have 130 cars there during that peak hour. Well, I have more questions about that. Do you have questions about trip data? That's what I have questions about. So while we're there, if we could continue, then I promise I'll pass the tonnever. Since I have the engineer appear appear in the council, Jason, could you please open up the council's PowerPoint? I want to see the slide that's a potential trip generation. On the council members or not the council, the attorneys, applicants, PowerPoint, please. What I'm trying to understand, I think we're conflating a little bit in our discussions, maybe not you because you really understand this math stuff. But is trip generation and whether that's credible versus what can the site handle? So I don't understand 45 cars a day when Starbucks is having 300 in an hour or whatever. Like, and I know Chris was talking about deviations and all this stuff. understand 45 cars a day when Starbucks is having 300 in an hour or whatever. And I know Chris was talking about deviations and all this stuff. But if you can handle this, not this one, the one that says potential trip generation on the top. I definitely saw that one. Keep going past the questions. There's one more. There you go. There we go. that one. Keep going past the questions. There's one more. There you go. There we go. That one. Thank you so much, Jason. All right. So, this was really small and you went through it quickly. So, I was wanted to make sure I understood it. So you're saying those trip generation can be in store. Okay. Did you not do a slide where you talked about the amount that the site could handle based Those trip generation. Convenience store. Okay. Did you not do a slide where you talked about the amount that the site could handle based on the new proposed site plan? What you have is trip generation for both. But what I think this shows you is the bottom is the coffee shop with a drive-through at the current proposed square footage. The one that we showed earlier was to compare a coffee shop with and without a drive-through at the current proposed square footage. The one that we showed earlier was to compare a coffee shop with and without a drive-through because what we need to remember is that today, tomorrow, they can come in with a land disturbance permit and they can build a 4,800 square foot building with a 1200 square foot coffee shop that doesn't have a drive-through. In addition to a 36 hundred square foot convenience store and so what we showed was a couple of things if we go Back to this one This is apples the apples a coffee shop without a drive-thru on with the drive-thru where it nets nine Extra trips so when we're having this discussion about whether or not a drive-thru we're talking nine extra trips during the peak hour. I'm about to get to those questions. But my question is and I thought that was part of this presentation but I guess not. Is how many cars can this site plan manage if Starbucks is doing 700 a day? I understand your generation is saying 119. But how many could you actually manage if you're wildly successful to Councilmember? Councilmember Cofflin starts going there five times a day for his five cups of coffee, which he actually does drink. So, well, I mean, I'm not the mathematician, but if you can queue 20 cars, 19 to 20 cars, and there's 11 parking spaces, and it takes about two minutes to fully cycle that through. So, well, that's the question. Have you run that analysis? Is that part of your scope of your site plan? So, I can just share based on my experience of the restaurant business. Of course, two main Starbucks and Chick-fil-A are exceptions. Right? So, in normal, in any of the restaurants, again, I don't have any of the peak hour restaurant, but having, have several friends and I've personally have been to the training myself with the team Hortons. So normally, you know, it, two minutes is the maximum time, but it sometimes even takes a minute because most of the people who are going in the morning are just getting a coffee and it's, it's moving through. So at some point I haven't even seen in one instance that they are passing 75 cars in one hour, 75 transactions in one hour. So if you look at that overall transaction to be successful, you need about close to 350 transactions a day. And we are hoping that that's what we will be able to get. And this is with the, because when you are having a dining restaurant, then you help people coming in, barking and coming in. This is just a drive-through where people are not going to have that much capacity to stop and come inside. So go ahead. have that much capacity to stop and come inside. So, go ahead. Well, with all due respect, Mr. Bede, that's, so you're using a downward outlier if you would have a two-minute processing average, you would also have upward outliers. So there's got to be days that it takes three years to come. Absolutely. Like so. Yeah. Those are the days that I'm most concerned about, because 7 to 9 is, 7 to 9 a.m. is our nightmare here in terms of school traffic. And so like during summers, I don't have a qualms, but like 7, 9 months through the year, you're going to have some major capacity. So, sorry. At some point we got to get. I know this is my last, try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try to try in the morning. So on the peak hours, so that would be not a burden to any of those other neighbors. If there is a traffic that back flows, the maveries doesn't open at 7 o'clock in the morning. They don't open till 8.30. So there is not going to be that much of a burden on that if there is. But that's the reason we have 19 cars on it so that we don't have any traffic going around on both the sites. And that is one of the reasons of significant change going from a 1600 to 88. I don't know that. Let's go ahead. My last trip data question. Do we have any data on the amount of cars that passed through that access road from 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. Because we have 31,000 on state bridge and I don't think so that would be any Well, and so I do have a So, Aberley I do have a question so For the cars going out is it just one lane? I know that there was talk about Yeah, is it can it have a of car turning left and a car turning right? Leaving Aberdeen Lee Lane onto. State bridge. Yeah. I think that it does. It can. Okay. So, and that's what I am concerned about is that you can't turn left to get on, you can't end up going east on State Bridge at any point in time unless you use hourly lane. And so if it's a few cars, that's one thing, but if it's Chris getting his fifth cup of coffee, it's going to be a problem. Well, but to your point, if you have, let's just say one Tim Horton customer that's cute up to turn left and waiting for, there's a light there. Yeah. It's the only light. Right. So then you've got, meanwhile, two or three cars coming out of Aberley Township. And so all of a sudden you've got the cut in the median that starts getting blocked. Yeah. Unless we got a magic cop that you're looking for. What I was hoping that a traffic control officer could manage, particularly more than this parking lot could manage Aberley Lane to make sure everyone can get in and out to their homes. But okay. So to the council, please, you said multiple times in your presentation, and again, in answering my question, that this is actually a less intense use. And I know that that's a little bit of a zoning word, but in the real word, less technical definition way, do you have anything comparison points for how many trips would be generated if this was a daycare? If this was a doggy daycare? If this was a liquor store? If this was a quickmart? If this, you know, like there's so many uses, I understand maybe 888 square feet in a technical sense is a less intense use than 4,800 square foot of retail. But is it really when it comes to daily trips and when it comes to effect on the streets? So actually what you see here is just that at the top. That is proposing of the 4,800 square feet that we is currently in Tadalma site if you were to put a convenience store and a 1200 square foot coffee shop without a drive through, which can be done today. That would be your trip generation difference compared to the bottom which is what is being proposed. So it is significant. It's about three times. And you're still, and that's one of the things that I'd like to point out as a part of that. Some of the concerns addressed with the traffic flow that's there is a byproduct of our effort to work with the community on about three to four traffic iterations. We've had other plans that may be balanced to your point earlier. This was at the first planning commission meeting, they asked why can't we just flip the site plan so that we can direct traffic. So that's what we did. We did that to accommodate the community. We managed to make it happen. It actually reduced our stacking and reduced the triple a bit more, but we were able to make it work so that we can put every protection in place we can on that site to push that traffic out, you know, Westbound on State Bridge, which coffee is like gasoline in the morning. There are a few people who are going to wait and make a U turn to save two cents a gallon, but for the most part, people are like water, they're going to take the path of least resistance to get their coffee and their gas in the morning. And most people in the morning are going Westbound on the State Bridge, headed towards 400. And that's where the ride in right out benefits during the peak hour time. Whereas with this here, what you see, so a convenient store is going to have peak hours, you know, they're going to have an uptake at that time as well. But there are also the reason why it's so much more as they maintain that level of business throughout the day, whereas a coffee shop is going to peak, level off, peak again and then close. So that's my biggest concern is that we have some manner, some ability to do some control at this point, but if anyone else comes in and they are producing the same amount, but I do question the 45 trips to Chris. Chris can actually explain the numbers of why he questions it, but for myself, just a lot of people are talking about the Simhorns coffee and I think it's going myself just a lot of people are talking about this Tim Horn's coffee and I think it's going to drive a lot of traffic to your store. But let me go ahead and count some of the time he hasn't had a chance to speak and I'm done for now. Thank you. I know pretty much most of the questions were asked to the applicant. Thank you for taking the extra step of working with the cities to have a community and making those changes, so really appreciate that. So going back to, I would like to ask the question for the opposition on the HIA. Yes, ma'am. So the concern was more on the safety side. So an applicant had a few meetings and like, did he address all the concerns that were raised by the residents and the H.O.A. regarding the use of our ability and the safety? He attempted to and we appreciate that he attempted to and the site plan that he's presented this evening is that most recent attempt To address all of those concerns, but we share many of the same concerns that are being asked here tonight How is all of this traffic going to be handled and Councilwoman Elwood to your point 45 trips we want importance to be successful in the city of John's Creek, right? If we're going to have a business in our city, we want it to be successful. Mr. Abid said himself, to be successful, I would need 300 to 350 transactions a day. He just said that. That's not 45 trips. And that's what we're concerned about. There's no easy way Councilor, Councilman DiBiasi, you talked about shoe horning. That's what we're all trying to do. And that's been our complaint or our concern from the very beginning is this is a great location from the standpoint that it's westbound traffic and that's where all the traffic is going in the morning and that's where all the coffee drinkers are coming from. But it's not a great location in terms of its size and where the traffic signal is, the fact that that's a private driveway, into a neighborhood that you've got other parcels of commercial land. So in one word to answer your question, no, the concerns have not all been addressed. Okay, let me go back, we'll deal with this, 45 trips in the second phase, but coming back to the school, children like the peak hours, if you say like a seven to nine. Yes. So if there is someone like a, someone controlling the traffic, directing the traffic away from the Aberley land, would that address the safety of the children? I'm having a hard time imagining that that would be the case, because we've got children coming from inside the neighborhood onto Aberley Lane to get to their bus stop, the middle school children, to get to their bus stop on state bridge and Aberley Lane on that corner. So where would this police officer be? Inside the neighborhood running down Aberley Lane to try to get the children to move away from the street. I can't imagine. We could do a couple of things. Where is the bus stop? Are all the, is it at state bridge? On the state bridge at the top. To on the state bridge one, like a two goes inside the of Berlin. Right, two elementary school buses come inside the neighborhood each morning and then two buses stop right at state bridge and everything. That's state bridge bridge. Yes, I have a photograph of the jet. But again, this concern will always be there, no matter what business comes in there, there's going to be traffic. Like, if there's a business that's going to draw in the morning, but we will address on the safety when on the signage that people heading on state bridge towards 400. Because by the time they get to the traffic signal, it might be too late for them to just go back. Like if they're already trying to make a right turn into the hourly lane, is there a way we could have some signs? Even before they get to the hourly lane saying that, OK, the entrance to the coffee shop is from the state-, past the signal. Sure, I mean, potentially, I mean, it's something that we would have to discuss with public works. In general, policy wise, we don't necessarily put out specific signs in our right away, in particular for any private retail use or associated with the business in any which way. There are other options again that may be possible. There are different sign opportunities that the applicant may be able to use on their site closer towards the intersection of Avley Lane and State Bridge Road, which are typical standard informational signs, which are four by four, 16 square foot signs that are painted wood. A lot of times you'll see that as like the four, sale four lease signs that you see in shopping centers. Those are, that's another option that's available to the applicant. Something that we can draw that attention of the drivers to see. So if you do that, we can address the ones heading towards, like on the state which heading towards 400. And then- At least, yeah, additional signage to make the drivers aware over time with that sign being there that the main entrance or the entrance that they should be entering into Tim Horton's would be through the right and right out and not through Aberley Lane. I can't say someone making a left turn at the Aberley signal probably they could see the sign that's already gonna be there. And again, if we have in traffic control person, like it could be an have a traffic control person, like it could be an officer or some security person, like station that, like wherever it is, directing the cars to stay away from the Aberlilane to head on the state resort. If it is 45 cars, yes, it's manageable, but now with all the conversation within the council and these things like, if this business is successful and if it's going to get to the point, I would like to hear from the hubby then team to see what is the plan to address that. 45 cars we can understand like addressing the safety of these things probably, we could achieve the goal but. Well again I will just repeat my you know statement about 300, 350 transactions that's what I said of my current businesses of my current restaurants, different restaurants varies from anywhere from 200 to 350 to 400 or even 500 transactions. It all depends on the again particularly with the Popeyes you know the ticket average and a chicken sandwich, you know, people and more things are coming up, so the traffic is going to increase, right? But with the coffee shop normally, what I have seen is that the traffic is mainly in the morning time, but when, again, we open the rush hour at five o'clock, and the seven to nine is a peak hours, right? So as it's more of an ancillary thing. But just want to give an example to Commissioner, sorry, Councillor, Erin, about any of the business that comes in, like I'll just give an example of, at one time I was going to open up another breakfast concept called out of the broken egg cafe. And that's a sit down concept. So today, in this 4,800 square feet building, I can open today in this 4800 square feet building, I can open up a 4800 square feet building with an hour nice bit here outside, with the capacity of 130 seats, because I had a similar plan exactly doing before the pandemic and pandemic put a stop to it. And thanks for that, so I was able to get a team hold on franchise, otherwise I would be in a non-complete clause. So I can have 130, and if you go to any of those breakfast place, go to an eye hop, go to an eye hop and go to a car waiting every single day in the morning to be seated. And even on the weekend it it's even in a reverse situation. And anybody can open up that right now without any of this situation right now. And that traffic, that's not going to stop the traffic of 130 customers, 130 seats. And same thing can happen even with any other restaurant. Like 4800 square feet can be a restaurant that can open stay late and this one we are going to close at 8 o'clock that's our timing. No I understand you trying to work with the community but here's the question like you're getting into the franchise with Tim Horton. They should the company should have the data. How many transactions on average does Tim Horton does? Say, again, sir, it all depends on the location. I went to Ohio, I did a training at two different location, one a 1,600 and 10 square feet with a full dining. And over there, the transaction count was about close to 300. In the morning time, between 7 to 10, the transaction was about 200. And the remaining dash of the date was 100. I went to a just drive through location, which was just opened about a few months ago, and their transaction, the old transaction is just 200. So it all depends on the competition. It all depends on where the location is, where the traffic is. And this is, where the traffic is. And this is, and I have done every effort to divert the talk group towards the other side. And I just said, I want to be a good neighbor because I want those 300 customers, 300 residents to be my customer. So that's the last thing I want is to have them go away from me. So I want to do everything possible to make sure that I am doing every possible thing. So going back to your, even if you say 250 average, so what would be the plan to address that? Let's take 45 out of the equation, say, like, even if you say 200. So that would put the strain on the other. How would you handle that? So again put the strain on the other, like, how would you handle that? So again, that's what I said, like, between in the morning time, the traffic, we are doing the traffic completely on the other side, right? So that we'll put a signage, we'll have, we'll do our best to direct the traffic from the other side. And even if they come from this side, every lane, because of our traffic pattern, they, they cannot just come through the many work. They will have to go around. So if I'm a customer, I'm better off going through there and coming this way, because it's not like going completely out of the way. So I think that's going to be the key part over there. And initially, as I said, I'm open to, as deep necessary, we will all be open to higher, the police officers, and keep them through dotted traffic as long as necessary, we will all be open to higher the police officers and keep them to do that in the traffic as long as it's necessary. Over time, people trying to enter from Aberlilin, they have to go through all the way past the maps and then make a U-turn and come back into the dry through lane. That's going to be tough, but until people get to know that, they'll still try to get from Aberlilin. It takes 21 days to make a behavior, right? Behavior change. So that's, you know, if we start with that, officers to begin with, I think eventually, that will help to change the behavior of the people. Understand. Thank you. Thanks for the, maybe more later. Mr. Abid. Mr. Abid. Thank you. Sorry. Mr. Abid. Mr. Abid. Oh, sorry. See, as for my council, my esteemed colleagues, expressed great concern about traffic messing with the people of Abily Township. Not just that, I'm also concerned about traffic on state bridge, especially when it's turning left going onto John's bridge. I'm willing to overlook all this if you can't say because this is a private arrangement, you have security arrangements which you do are private arrangements, we can't enforce that. But my point is, you need at least two officers, one to stop guys from people from coming from Mayvistire in using their exit which is cutting across that and the other one standing at the curb on Abhalee and State Bridge and stopping people from turning right. And as you say, if you say 21 days, I think that is for one person. But I hope you're widely successful and we have 500 people who are regular customers. Imagine, so my point is, we are justly concerned about, if you can somehow assure that there are no right turns and no egress, at least during the peak hours, with the help of committed security people like preferably police people. I will do my best like you know in my power to stop people of going through that. And as I select you know if somebody like say for example somebody coming from the ability township and they want to enter I can't stop that right. So and I'm sure there will be some coffee lovers who wants to go and have a coffee. I'm sure the police person will have the discretion of whom to stop whom not to stop. Exactly, right. Correct. But I'm thinking because, as my esteemed colleague Dilip said, he is very clear, we don't want any of your coffee shop traffic to come into the Abel Illian as low as possible. As you say, I'm sure they'll have it's take time. And similarly, people going out and interfering with their traffic, morning traffic. There is some way you can assure us that I'm... So as I said, if needed, I can have two police officers. And plus, I will also have my staff members be there to direct the traffic. Directly so. I just want to ask you. also have my staff members be there to die the traffic. It's a direct song. I just want to ask you, if indeed this business owner wants to put multiple security persons, is that enforceable or is that what happens if there's a violation on that? What are the remedial measures for the city? Technically it's not a violation because it's not a code requirement. I mean, it would be something that the applicant would want to do in the best interest of his business and to being a good neighbor, but it's not a code requirement. The enforceability essentially is just more of if this was to go through and we were supposed to have that discussion in terms of how he would go about establishing the traffic management program. That's something that the city potentially could advise him on, but it's not necessarily a code violation. Mr. Abbey, I'm not trying to hit this, but to prevent any business from making an empty promise, how can we stop it? That's my issue. Well, and that's my memory. We could potentially make a condition. It would have to be very specific and narrowly drawn, but we could write it into our motion. Before anybody, you want sorry to interrupt. Sorry to interrupt. But before you want anybody asked for it, we had proposed that anyone in the first planning and commission. Nobody even had brought this up and we proposed this in the first planning and commission, planning commission meeting that we would do those things to mitigate the traffic. At that time, nobody would even ask at that point. Mr. Mayor, I'd like to make a motion. Okay. I would like to make a motion to deny zoning m.1. Zero two, zero two, three, dash zero five, zero nine nine. Public hearing for consideration of an ordinance amending the city of John's Creek, Zoni Map, RZ-22-0010-10505 St. Bridge Road C1, Community Business District, Conditional to C-1, Community Business District, changing conditions to allow for and 88, 88 square foot drive through only Tim Horton's coffee shop. Okay. All right. So, so. I want this to be with you for a few minutes. Because I'm sorry, you're out of order. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry, so we have a motion on the floor. And is there a second? Second. Okay, so there's a second is there a discussion on the motion now you can say what are you? Yeah, I would like to see my esteemed councilman How we can narrow down and write specific instruction for this business to ensure that there is minimal traffic going into Abelitra. So how is that possible? Because I would like us to consider that before we say deny. Well, let's allow as tradition the motion or in the second or to give their comments and then I will address what your concerns are. So I want to first thank you for doing all that you're doing and trying to open up businesses here in Johns Creek. Like I said before, I'm extremely familiar with Tim Horton franchise. My nephew actually worked there. He actually received a scholarship from Tim Horton. So very, very, very great franchise and I know the work that you do with the other franchises. So I believe you will be successful wherever you go. I cannot, I cannot think about, you know, we as a council as a city here, we're here to protect and elevate the citizens and the lifestyle of John's Creek. Every morning, if I was potentially in Aberley, I'd be waking up in the morning, potentially hitting traffic, before I even left my neighborhood. And that's why I look at this and say, potentially this is not the right business for this particular location. If we decide, if you decide if someone else decides to build a convenience store, then we'll look at that at the merits at that point, or it could be by law that you don't even have to come before this council. But today I have a hard time believing that with the other six parcels, the traffic, the bus, I just feel there's a lot of moving parts and a lot more questions I have than I believe I've heard answers this evening. So that is the reason why I go for a denial here. Okay. Thank you, your Councillor on DVO. Mayor Prudson. Thank you for working with the residents and coming up with a revised plan. Please know, I mean, we would be excited for this if there was a different fit in that location. At the end of the day, I just think this is too dense for this location. That access road is already busy. I set out there the other morning from 8 to 8.53 AM, and there are plenty of people using that access road. Even trucks trying to go deliver. And people trying to get on to Jones Bridge having to go out at that light make it right because traffic was too heavy for them to use the other driveway to get out so I mean thank you for trying to work with the residents, but yeah, I think this will negatively impact the health and welfare and public safety of the residents. So for that reason, I support the denial. So for that reason, I support the denial. Thank you, Mayor Procene. I have a question for Miss Salomon. So I think you may be starting to see some tea leaves develop here on the council. As I've been thinking about this case, I keep thinking about the Gareth Brooks song, where he says, I thank God for unanswered prayers. The law of unintended consequences. I know that you and your neighbors are here because you're opposed. But are you crystal clear that if we deny this, if someone else comes up that fits C1 straight forward, it's never coming to us and we will have no ability to put up signage, we won't have any ability to put up a police officer or anything. I mean, they'll just be, they can do pretty much what they want as long as they're within that usage. We do understand that, Mr. Mayor. We are opposed to the drive-through. We recognize that there will be a business there and we hope that there will be a business there that we all can support at some time. It's the drive-through that is our concern and all of the issues that you all have very rightfully raised. Right. So, yes, thank you for asking that question. Right, and I don't mean to, you know. No, I understand. It's just, you know, sometimes we get people that say, we don't like what you're doing now and we're not going to like what you do later either. No, we understand that. So, you know, I think that Councilmember D. Biasi said it well. We are trying to look out for the residents and the quality of life and everything. You know, we also want to, you know, give the green light to businesses anytime we can, but for me, and I'm sorry, you can say, but thank you. But I was just going to say that for me, you know, it's a key point that this is economically viable as it's currently zone. I think we've all kind of exhausted the point that there are multiple different business types that could go into this spot. Personally, I came in here tonight leaning towards approval because I think it's a great concept and I think that you're a great business owner and entrepreneur I just think it's a right product wrong location and so I very much hope that maybe you'll think about this I would love to see something like this in the town center I'm sure that city hall employees would love to see this thing within walking distance City Hall. But for me, I think that there's just way too much that we are to our credit and to the processes credit. We are trying to try to make it work, but I think the key word is try. We're trying to make this work and it's just maybe a little too difficult. And I just think that long term we're going to see problems if we approve. So I will be voting for the motion. Here is where I'm standing. Why? I think I'd like to hear, anytime people come before us, we need to give both folks a chance. I understand Abilitounship. I'm a citizen of this city. I understand traffic can be affecting their lifestyle every day morning, every day. So the point is, when I hear from my council friend, Miss Elwood, to say, how can we narrow this source, defined in such a way that we do not interfere with Abelie township? I can understand nothing is bulletproof. What if it is 97% 98% if you can show that? How can we do that? The point is, I don't want to close a door. When I don't know, what is on the other side? The point is, I'd like to see any option. I would like both of you to go back happy today. That's my interest. I can't just say one person should go back happy. That is where I am heading. I would certainly like to see the alternative. And if you cannot match up to the alternative, I would be in favor of denying this application. OK. The way I'm looking at is here we have an applicant who is willing to work with us and move the things. Again, future we don't know what's going to come in there and there's only so much we can do at that point because it's not even going to come to us for discussion. So here if we can get anything done from the applicant and say okay, here are the concerns, here is what you can do. If he is not then fine like we are going in the direction. But here's an applicant who is giving the residents and us an opportunity to say, okay, fine, tell me what I need to do to keep the residents safe and also the things. So going back to what Bob and Aaron said, if there's a way to make this happen where all the parties will be leaving saying that it's satisfying. I can't vote for an outright denial. I always want to find a solution. And I walked in here thinking there was as possible to find a solution. I'm a little concerned about trip counts and capacity on the site plan, but I still think that the concerns about safety and school buses and traffic on Aberley could have been avoided if we had written a condition mandating traffic personnel to direct traffic at the applicant's expense during peak hours from 7 to 9. So that's what I would like to propose if the denial fails. But I, because what I'm very concerned about, and I mean, like, really concerned about is that we deny this with best intentions for this community, and a daycare gets built. And there's no control. And I don't know if any of you remember dropping off your kids at daycare, but like, that's, you know, wild west of morning drop off during rush hours with no ability to have control. So like I'm an attorney in my personal professional life and anytime I can negotiate a situation for my client where I have some measure of control and ability to negotiate, I'm happier than when I get a judge telling me what I can't, I can't do. And you have no control. So that's how I feel about this situation. I don't know, I don't even want to say the word, but if a deferral is in order to figure out, is there an alternative we haven't thought of yet, or maybe we've exhausted it? And there is no alternative, but go ahead. So I don't think we're allowed to place a condition on them with the zoning that would require them to hire an officer, is that correct? Director Song? It could be a part condition of the zoning. I'll say there's any condition could be placed by council essentially. Yeah. The matter of enforcement is a separate issue at hand. But there are some limiting factors, but in terms of conditions that are wide open for council to consider that is something that could be considered. Not good, but again, it would not be the most left field condition this council has ever put. I know, maybe not this council. If we can put a condition in there, the applicant is willing to open a lot more businesses here. He's a from the business background. So I wouldn't say like someone would be backing off from the condition if you put it in there. Even if it's enforceable or not. So it just a little clarity on the direction of this condition. So I verified our city manager. So we couldn't do an on duty police officer, because that's the taxpayer. Gratuity. We could work with off duty police officers, but it's at that officer's discretion. And so it would be on them to show up, but looking at that from a price point of 12 hours a day. I mean you're looking at 150K a year for that and with the guarantee that they'll be able to accommodate those 60 hours a week or so. That's a few, same 12 hours a day. I mean I would write the condition to be seven to nine. I would think the first four weeks they would need someone significantly more hours. But what real quick question to the applicant's team, when do you expect this to open? Ideally in the summer, right? How many? Next summer. It depends on how long it takes for to get the permits approved and everything. So probably I would say any project takes anywhere to six to nine months. That's a lot faster than I thought. It takes nine months, maybe a year. Okay, tag on to that real quick. So is this a conditional sale or do you own the property today? I'm outside my due diligence and I am in a process of buying it. You're in a process of buying it. But is a condition done this approval? That condition is over, so regardless of it, I like the property and I'm going to buy it. Okay. And as far as a denial, I encourage this council to make an up or down decision. The citizens have been out here three times, twice with planning commission, plus tonight. I don't want to wear out the citizens with this. To that point, I think that if we were to do it a furl or if we were to even entertain another motion, you know, it's like we started out with one traffic cop. And then we got a proposal for a second one out on state road. And then we got almost a third where there would be a member of the, you know, the coffee shop would come out and help direct traffic. So I'm a firm denial at this point. And if there's nothing new, if you have something new to say, then that's great, if not, that's how we get going to a vote. So we good to take a vote. All right. So all those in favor of denying this application, please signal the five raising your hand. If you want to deny your raising your hand. And the motion and raise your hand if you're against the motion. And so the motion. Right, until you. And here. Okay. All right. So, with that, thank you, Council. Thank you, everyone. I'll be don't don't give up another that's tough. We do want to see you succeed in John's Creek. Bead, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor. Please come back. All right, next item. Thank you, Mayor. The next item on the agenda is resolution 2023512. This is a resolution to point post A of the Johns Creek Arts Culture and Entertainment Committee. This would be your item. And so Council also nominated Cindy Green for this spot. And I think many of you know Miss Green. She's been a dedicated volunteer and has been very conscientious in serving at many of our community events and encourage you to approve but that's for you to decide Mayor, I'd like to make a motion to approve ordinance are 2023-0512, the resolution to point post A of the Johns Creek Arts Culture and Entertainment Committee. Second. Thank you for the motion, Council Member Elwood, and thank you for the second Council Member Tunky. And is there a discussion on the motion? And seeing none, all those in favor? And that passes unanimously. Next item. Thank you, Mayor. I'm not aware of any other business tonight. And all right. And I'll see. Do you have anything? No other business. Thank you. That would bring us to another opportunity for public comment. Long night tonight, yeah. I just want to, as a resident of John's Creek, I know you went through your due diligence process to make this decision. I'm not sure if it is the right decision. I'm not sure if it is the right decision and I think some of you are not sure whether this is the right decision. But you have to make a decision, right? Keep in mind, sometimes a burden hand is better than three in the bush. And this particular case, it's a small business case. It's not 10,000 jobs for economic development. But there are people watching what has transpired in the past and what has transpired tonight. That property is going to be built. And unfortunately, whatever is going to be built, the citizens will have no say in it. You will have no say in it. And it can come and become detrimental for the residents. You have tried your best to make a decision based on the facts and figures. I just hope that this decision plays out well for the residents more than anything else. Because my gut tells me it will do two things. It will let the neighboring cities know that business is open. John's Creek is open for business, but not always the case. Secondly, the business that may come about, if you have no control over it, and that development, when it was built, that road was to be used by multiple businesses. Yes, this count of drive-through and all that, there are always ways of mitigating those situations. But I think we missed an opportunity having a bird in the hand. And I think now we're going to find out what the three in the bush would look like. So again, thank you for doing your due diligence. But time shall tell whether we did the right thing or not. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else? My name is Crutch and Saludra. I'm a resident of Aberley Township, live at 10755 Bozer Drive. In response to the last comment and also as a voting citizen of Johns Creek, I appreciate your time tonight. We realize we don't know what's coming into our neighborhood. It could be a daycare as you mentioned, but we are greatly concerned about the traffic of a 100% drive-through only business. Had it been a restaurant where we could go, walk up, sit, enjoy, and it wouldn't have had as many cars coming through. It would have been something that we would have supported. We also realize we don't know what's coming there, but you can't predict what's coming down the road. I feel like tonight watching what was going on, we kept trying to put a square peg into a round hole. We kept looking at how many ways can we work to make this work? I'm sorry. But the easy answer is, there's not an easy way to do that. And we look at trying to put conditions on, those conditions can be placed, but they're not easily enforced. And when it comes down to the enforcement, it would have come down to our HOA and the cost that would put the burden on our HOA and the owner of that property. So as a resident, I do thank you for your decision tonight. I think it was the right decision. Time will tell, as you mentioned, whether it is or not. But I don't want you to go home on that last note, thinking that we didn't appreciate your time and your efforts tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else? Anybody else rep Anybody else Republican? Seeing none. Next item. Mayor's comments? I want to just say that I think that we if I was a betting man I think I would have bet that the council would have approved. That's just my gut. But I think that the council did a good job of truly listening with an open mind and weighing all the testimony and the facts and really trying to envision what would be the best long-term thing for the community. And I think that that shows a great deal of maturity and discernment. And I appreciate that a great deal of this council. And we did so civilly, right? So we were divided and vote, but we did so without being disagreeable. And I think that's always something to be proud of. But that was a tough one. Anyway, next time. Executive session? There is no need. We've already handled that. Thank you, my other snow for the items on the agenda. You know, it only takes one. I suppose that we had shown this session. You're very good with that. And so thank you for that motion. Is there any discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor? They're voting with their feet.