Music Good evening. I'd like to call to order the October 27th, 2008 meeting of the Planning Commission. We have a quorum and I would like us to all participate in the pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God in the result with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. First item on the agenda is the discussion of the, I'm sorry, yeah, it is. First item on the agenda is the discussion of the agenda. Mr. Chairman, I move that the agenda be adopted as presented. Second. Dr. Conne, all those in favor? Aye. Opposed? The agenda is set. Presentations from the public. Are there any persons here that wish to speak to the Planning Commission on a subject that is not on the agenda tonight? Seeing none, we'll move to item three. The determination of blight, it pursuant to the city code article 11. Ms. Kodalesa. Thank you. Amber Wilson, the director of code administration wasn't able to be with us this evening. He's appointed Gary Orndorf as the acting fire marshal to come and make this presentation for you. You have the floor, sir. Okay. Tonight I come to you to speak and reference the property owned by Mr. Francis B. Jarvis. It's a 10,000, 532, Cedar Avenue. See the, this is the, on your screen you may see the picture of the property coming up. This is a property that's been on, the city has been dealing with approximate past 1880. Back in 1990, 91 timeframe. The owner of this property converted a one-story garage unit into an added a second-story addition to the garage. This was done in violation of the statewide building code. He did this without permits and the zoning ordinance at the time did not comply with the setbacks for a two-story structure. And then junction was obtained at that time to prevent the owner from occupying the structure. And spring of 2002, the main structure for this building was involved in a fire and also was found to be in an oblitered condition. It was a 50-year-old one-story wood-framed structure. At that time, the city demolished that structure through the use of a contractor hired by the city. In August of this year, 2008, a letter indicating the blight determination of the accessory structure was sent to the owner. The owner was given him until September the 15th of this year to respond with a plan or the property would be forwarded to the Planning Commission for a blight determination. On September the 24th, the property after hearing nothing from the owner was referred to the Planning Commission for this meeting tonight. On October the 10th, 2008, a handwritten notice, a letter was received from the property owner by Chief Wilson. The property owner has failed to respond with an appropriate plan to abate the conditions of this property. Mr. Jarvis has indicated that he has received the notice, provided to him, and he will not oppose the city's actions to abate the Black condition. This time we will bring this to you for the following actions. Once the formal findings of the property constitutes blight, the city proposes to demolish the structure, see the disturbance of the prevent erosion and ensure the grass is mowed regularly. The remaining structure is in very poor condition. As you can see from the picture here, this area here has a peeling paint. We have windows that hear that are open or broken. Like switch pictures. This picture shows again this area down here and across here, again, very poor shape. There's been a tree that has fallen onto this structure. We have not been able to gain access to see the extent of the damage to the building. We do see that the building will require extensive repair. Given the accessory structure was large, enlarged without permits. And as in violation of the both building and zoning codes, the fact that the owner will not be able to obtain any further permits for the work. Again, we do not feel it's that we can move forward in allowing him to do any repairs to the structure. Okay, as far as the physical impact, none. None. Contract forces will carry out the proposed work plan. At least three estimates will be reviewed in accordance with the city purchasing regulation. A lien will be placed on the property to recover all costs associated with bringing the property into compliance with all appropriate building codes. Current estimate on the work to be done is approximately $6,000. That's all I have for right now. Thank you. What would be in order for the planning commission to make a motion? There wasn't one in your package, but the motion should involve two parts. One would be a finding that the property constitutes light and is detrimental to public health safety and welfare. The second would be that the Planning Commission recommend that the City Council approve the remedy as stated in the staff report to demolish the structure, seed the property and ensure that the grass is mowed. That would probably be the best form for your motion to take. Mr. Cunningham, would you care to make a motion so we can get it on the floor for discussion? Do you want to entertain comments from either of either staff and or the public before we make a motion? It is a public hearing. I understand that, but I was thinking we needed a motion first. Okay. If you would like a motion, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a motion in regard to the determination of light at the property located at 10532 Cedar Avenue, owned by Mr. Francis Steve Jarvis, that the findings of the public hearing, that the determination of blight pursuant to city code article 11 blighted property sections 10-701 through 10-705 and review of a blight and remediation of property at 10-5-32-Ceter Avenue, tax map, parcel 57-2-02-099 be found and that this finding is consistent with the public health safety and welfare of the community. And at the second portion of the recommendation, be a recommendation to City Council that this finding be forwarded with recommendation that Council approve the actions outlined in our staff report that the city be authorized to contract for an action that will cure the blighted condition and include seating and making the property safety or making the property safe for public safety purposes within the neighborhood. Is there a second? I'll sit. Mr. Bob Chely seconds. We have a motion on the floor. Any more comments from staff before? Yes, sir. We are in a public hearing and we've had two members sign up to speak. I would like to call up the first speaker, Mr. Olville. Good evening. My name is Steve Olfield. I live at 10530, O. Cedar Avenue. I am with the House immediately adjacent to this property. I am on the side closest to the fence. And I have a few comments. This is a very long story. And only long serving members of staff of the city are aware of the whole story. This is a highly summarized story. I actually believe that the structure was there before 1991. I know that because I moved into my house in 1991 and it was already there. The house was occupied for a while by the family and also used as an legal rental rental and it has not been occupied for the last ten years. It has stood vacant after the previous City Actions. It has been vacant for at least ten years. The photos make it look a little nicer than it actually is. And on my side of the property, you can quite clearly see that there is deterioration in the roof so that there are holes in the roof. And I've actually seen a raccoon entering an exiting structure. I have not seen inside the structure. The bottom is bordered up, and every single one of the rear windows of my own house is in sight of this terribly ugly structure. And also, I'm glad to see that Mr. Jarvis is not objecting to this because I actually believe that removing this structure will increase the value of his lot. I think anybody who was to use this law in any way would remove it to increase its value. And I really would ask you please, after all this time, it's been in contravention of code for 20 years. It's time to finally deal with this property. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Mr. Davidson. Stevenson. Good evening. My name is Karen Stevenson and I live at 10537 Cedar. I'm diagonal across the street from the Jarvis property, like two doors down. I'm crossing what is called the Nuns residence. I've lived there for 25 years and since I've been there just after the Jarvis property has always been a problem. The house itself for years was in a deteriorated condition and finally the city worked and worked and worked and had it torn down. The ground of the grounds or the land or whatever has never been taken care of. It's always been in just terrible, terrible mess. The city's always had to cut the grass. September one of this year, the city went over and had a group of workmen over there for the whole day, taking out old trees, brush and everything else. They had piles that were so high that the city had a sand to huge trucks over. This is the way this property has always been taken care of. And now this structure is in blighted condition. Cedar Avenue itself is a nice neighborhood. We're proud of our houses. We probably have some of the oldest houses in the city on that street. And this lighted property going from one thing to another has always been an issue. Hopefully when this lighted structure is torn down, the fact that the city is totally cleaned up that lot, it will now almost look like a green space and that's the best we can hope for. Thank you. Thank you. Are there questions who is in the form of the image bedroom is a handicap? Will he get anything out of his property? Or will he just take it away from him? No, the property belongs to Mr. Jarvis and will remain belonging to Mr. Jarvis. And I believe he has it on the market as a vacant property for sale. What this will do is it'll remove a dilapidated shed and in fact on the property which has little value and probably has negative value in terms of the sale. So it should be in the long term of benefit to him. Thank you. Other just related question, I'll be just not. Does the bank or does he own anything, is he marketing on the Internet or does somebody else is the partner in this bank home bank as a marketer, title or something? I don't know the answer to that. That's not a part of this determination normally. It really isn't relevant to the particular criteria for this discussion, but I'm not aware of any mortgage. I'm reminded before we take any more comments to see if there's anyone else that did not sign up that wishes to speak on this issue. Mr. Robinson. Thank you for your presentations. Mr. Robinson. Thank you for your presentations. My question is, what would happen if the property owner, Mr. Jarvis, decides after we tear down the rest of the structures and make the property vacant again, that he's not going to sell it? I could see this with the caught. It's listed in here that the city is going to pay for the maintenance to keep the law in mode and everything that goes in here until it's, I guess until it's sold or until something else is done with it. If he were to take this vacant lot off of the market, I mean essentially theoretically in perpetuity, the city could be responsible for this property and it's upkeep because it would go into Wales and into trust. Is there some way without going down the slippery slope of eminent domain to ensure that in addition to putting a lien on the house which is a lien on the property for our cost which is obviously contingent only upon the property being sold has it been reviewed with legal or can we make, can we attach something to the recommendation of the City Council, is there another avenue to recoup those costs? Should the sale of the property not go through? At the cost to see the cost to keep the property mode, all those things that we face in what I think we'd all agree is a pretty tight budget situation to begin with. Unless Mr. Orndorf has a comment, I spoke to Mr. Wilson about that issue earlier. We've been in there picking up the lawn, picking up the stuff. I think back in 1989, I towed a car off that lot. So it is a longstanding issue. What we do with the mowing, which is not inexpensive, it probably costs more for the city to go in there, move the lawn, have a contractor move the lawn, and charge him for that than it would be for him to contract out to do it. In fact, we send a bill for that. And my understanding from Mr. Wilson is he has paid those bills. Now, in taking down something like this house, if it's going to cost $6,000,000, $10,000,000, it might go as a lean against the property and we wouldn't realize that until and unless it sold you're correct. But I think in general the mowing bills have been paid. Now if they're not they will accumulate against that and when they accumulate to a certain point that they're more than the worth of the house that's when you go into a lean sale. Is there an existing lean for the prior residents being demolished? I don't know the answer to that. Okay. I don't know. Yeah, I have some questions. I have some comments. I was with, I was on the planning commission when we did, when we took the 2002 action. Mr. Jarvis was a disabled veteran at that time and unfortunately due to circumstances was not present at the planning commission's hearing, arrived at the meeting after his agenda item had been resolved with a recommendation. And I know that at that time the action was passed on to City Council and as Mr. Arndorf was stated, the action with regard to blight on the house was followed up on the city, did remove it and has seated that area. It's been stated that the city has been taking care of it and billing Mr. Jarvis for those services since then The planning commission of the job is is primarily to and we can be aware of those factors but our job is to determine whether it is a blighted property and Whether we should recommend to city council at an action be taken whether we should recommend to City Council that an action be taken. The same issues were present and presented in 2002 when the primary structure was at issue. And I think it's stated by the Federal field and in Stevenson, the garage was indicated to be out of conformance at that time. And was not a blighter property, but there was a prohibition on it being used. And I gather from the reports then that it has not been used since that time. So it was, it's reasonable to assume that the contained, the property is continued to deteriorate over that period of time. area rate over that period of time. From that standpoint, and I think with the action that's been brought to us, it's appropriate that we would follow through and take the action to make it a blight of property and then also advise in the staff report on that to City Council that the other issues were which aren't really under our purview but are under City Council's purview be taken and they were responsible for following up with that At this time Mr. Jarvis I think has done us a favor by sending his handwritten comments aligning his situation and an indication that he will not fight what action the city takes. And I believe that states his position for our determination as well and provides the ground on which we can clearly move forward. I think his military service can be appreciated, but his responsibility as a property owner and a citizen of the city is also what we're having to deal with and the actions that we're taking are appropriate, even with regard to his status. That's all. You know the questions coming, Mr. Vata Telly? I just have, I agree with what's been said so far, but I haven't. Just one question. Mr. Jarvis appears to be responsible in responding and paying his bills as a city presents them to him. He made a comment here that I just like to know if we verified it or not. He made a comment that all permits were issued by the City of Fairfax and the late eighties for the garage studio. You know if that's true or not. I was the zoning administrator at the time we got an injunction against Mr. Jarvis for this property in 1990 to 1990 or 91 periods. All of the city records reflect on appeal to the BZA and then on further appeal to the courts in this issue that The building was not lawful Thank you Mr. Williams I just get a ballpark idea once the Assuming that the city council does make a determination here, how long will the rest of the process take? Should take approximately two weeks, sir? I have a question. It's more general. general away from this specific situation. What is the process and what are the remedies with respect to a blighted property whereby we might consider a shorter time frame? Because I can remember another property in the city and another neighborhood that took forever too. And then more specifically, on the site history, you had an injunction preventing the owner from occupying the structure. So it seems as though it was built without permits. And immediately the owner was enjoying from using it. So we just had to wait and wait and wait until the structure became blighted, because the owner couldn't do anything with it. It would seem to me there needs to be a Quicker remedy to this kind of situation To resolve the problem before we have to get to this point and affect neighbors the way we do As Your public testimony heard earlier. There's a long history on this property Originally when the house was torn down, there had been a plan, first of all, to fix that house up, which fell through. And then the second plan was to build another house fairly quickly, and thereby keep this as a garage, and that sort of fell through. And then there was a period of habitation of a relative, I believe, in the second floor of this, and we had to go through that process. You know, the city tries not to be heavy handed, as it moves through this process, and you're right, this probably took a lot longer than it should have. Two reasons. One is, on residential, we really air on the side of slow. And number two, there were not at the time, there was not enabling legislation that came out of Richmond that allowed us to take some of these actions. We were fairly much on the forefront of writing blight legislation. And we're one of the first communities in Virginia who wrote up this whole process through the Planning Commission of the City Council to enable us to take this action. You know, you see in a lot of communities boarded up properties for decades because it's a very difficult thing to do. We established this process, documented everything, went through all the proper channels. I think now that we have the enabling legislation and we passed all of these regulations, we can deal with this a lot quicker than this process. Do we have the same latitude with commercial properties? Yes, I believe the blight of legislation also applies to commercial. Mr. Kennedy, this is a comment to your item on time frame. There's at least one other property that comes to mind that we went through this determination on. And I believe the time frame was much faster because it's two or three years ago. And I believe the process from the time the property entered its blighted condition until action was taken was less than two years. I'll give it and this is a, this was a house in the city that someone had started to remodel. And that process was much more expedient, if you will, when it became apparent that the remodeling was not going to be completed and that the physical structure was deteriorating badly and could not be reclaimed. So that this particular property is perhaps not a good example in the, in the total time it's taken to deal with the issue. And that property is much more reflective of a property in effect being abandoned in a neighborhood. And then the falling to the point that the approved renovation action could not be completed and was not going to be completed so if property was not going to be restored to habitable condition Thank you I think I don't have any doubt in my mind that case is great very clear but I just would like to ask just for my own first social satisfaction that this guy is treated fairly. It means number I don't number five seven and eight. When he says the city granted a special All for a more issued. It is that accurate and we forgot As all of the three items. Please all three of those items They are not completely accurate Where he's talking about item seven and eight, he's talking about an adjacent property that received permissions to do things that went through the channels to get the permissions to do those things that he had not been given but felt he should have been able to do because somebody else did. Permits were issued in some instances on the property but not for what he ended up building there. So it's, you know, it's a bit fuzzy there. All of these arguments were made before the court and before the Board of Zoning appeals and before the zoning administrator and the determinations were made after that. And I think in number 12, he acedes to understanding that it's a done deal in terms of the Bell's determinations. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Are there any other comments, questions, observations? We have a motion on the floor to declare the sublited property and forward it to Council for their determination. is there an interest in amending this motion or shall we go to a vote? Okay. All those in favor of the motion as made, please indicate by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries unanimously. Mr. Horndorf, thank you for your presentation. Thank you. Mr. Dean and Mr. O'Field, thank you for coming in. Next item on the agenda is the consideration of the meeting minutes of September the 8th. Is there a motion? I think that's the second. All those in favor? Aye. Opposed? Would you please note that I abstain? I have Mr. Botticelli and I abstain. Item number five, presentation on stormwater and floodplain management. Let me just briefly introduce this item as our city engineer comes forward. We've brought you the city engineer and our special projects engineer to talk about a couple different aspects of the environment today. As this board is getting ready to do its review of the conference plan, one of the sections that will be important to us looking at to see if there have been important changes and what we need to do with the comp plan. I thought it would be instructive to get information from both of these folks. Peter Mellard is the city engineer and he's gonna talk to you about the city's stormwater management program and about our floodplain management program. Good evening. Firstly, I'd like to say thanks to the planning commission for the opportunity to speak on our stone drain and third-plane management. Thank you. The city of Fairfax is located in the Ackerton Creek watershed in Nong Virginia and Ackerton Creek and its major tributaries account for approximately 10 miles of stream within the city of Levitts. I do a brief accounting of the facilities that comprise the city of Fairfax stormwater system. We have approximately 57 miles of storm drain pipe and a lot miles of stream as I mentioned. The storm drainage system drains to the streams of the Akitin river At the Akitin Creek the city of the city storm drainage crew provide perform several Maintenance functions on the soldiers system They replace or or line once one storm pipes The repair catch basins a repair box culverts and bridges and clean and flush block pipes, clear debris from the stream and block this from the stream. This all these maintenance activities help to provide a clear path for storm water flows through the city of Fairfax provide a clear path for stormwater flows through the city of Fairfax storm collection system. I do a bit about the the laws that regulate this charge into the stream. The National Pollution Distrage Elimination System, or NPDES, as it is called, is a permit that was introduced in 1972 under the Clean Water Act and is managed by the Environmental Protection Agency. The City of Fairfax is regulated under the Virginia pollution discharge elimination system, which is a state version of the NPDES. The city of Fairfax is required to control pollution by regulating point sources that discharge into the waters of the United States. The VPDES program, which is Virginia's version of the National Program, has two phases. During the first phase, municipalities, greater than populations, greater than 100,000, had to provide stormwater management systems and manage and regulate industrial discharges and regulate construction sites that were greater than five acres by Duny, Rojana, and Selma control. The program now in its second phase called the municipal separate storm sewer system or MS4, as you may have heard, requires municipalities under 100,000 population to do stormwater management. You may have heard about this because we just started requiring detention, retention facilities and city of Fairfax be inspected on an annual basis. And also to inspect construction sites between one and five acres for erosion and sediment control, we have active program in this area as well. There are six elements in the MS4 program I touch briefly on them. The six elements are one is public education outreach. We do have a stream monitoring program and a storm drain marker program currently in existence. We have the second is public involvement participation the city of FFAT has a watershed plan. Elicit connection detection and elimination. This is done by Monitoring suspected outfalls if somebody reported outfall may be contaminated then we're required to do sampling And this is enforced by the fire marshal who just left Construction sites stormwater runoff control. This is done by Eurasian and sediment control, inspection and enforcement. Post-construction runoff control. This is the detention and pre-treatment system inspection that I just referred to. Pollution prevention and good housekeeping. This is for the employees of the City of Fairfax that take care of their personal facilities. And now move on to the effects of urbanization. Changing land use from vacant rural land, the residential, commercial, use results in decrease in pervious surface and increase in impervious surfaces. This change in watershed imperviousness results in increased flow rates, increased run-off volumes, increased frequency of flooding, and also has water quality impacts. In order to accommodate the increased runoff systems, the increased runoff systems consisted of curb and gutter, storm sewer ditches and paved ditches, culverts were developed to convey runoff safely true to watershed. These systems directly increase flow velocity and consequently decrease basin time of concentration. Results in higher peak flows. This diagram gives you a slight indication of what change the mass change that is made when you go from pre-developed to post-developed. The height and peak almost triples, I would say. In typeical moderately developed watersheds, these types of increase could be from two to five times the pre-developed conditions. So we're talking about a whole lot more water when it peaked. These increases also cause the degradation of the stream channel, eroding, undercutting, channel, eroding, undercutting, and widening the channel, and resulting in an expansion of the flood in the diagram below. To combat these situations, flood control measures were developed. Some by federal authority and others by local authority. I would now highlight some of the flood control measures. One of them, which was developed by FEMA, was the established, a special flood hazard area. This was also known as a floodplain. And two, required site plan approval before development is allowed. Tree to limit the percentage of imperviousness allowed on each site. For to require detention, retention facilities, for sites that increase runoff over pre-developed conditions from September 17th of 1974, I guess that's when the city adopted this order. And the controller release rates from the detention retention facilities to pre-developed conditions for the two, ten and a hundred years storms from September 17th of 1974. This slide shows example of what a city of Fairfax watershed looks like in a shaded area. And for development in these shaded areas you would need to have a floodplain permit or a special use permit. Condition required for site plan approval. This is what I do. We check the streets curb and gutter inlets for the 10-year storm. The culverts for 25-year storms if they are over a primary crossing and we check the 100-year storm for flooding. We check that the flows from the contain a 10-year storm and a 2-year storm. The City of Fairfax allows up to 45% in previousness. For sites with greater than 45% in previousness, best management practice are required. These are the BMPs that I refer to that need an inspection. The shaded area here shows what the effect of improviseness is on a side that has been developed. For a side that needs attention, the gray area here shows the quantity of water that needs to be retained if the side needs a detention. Also in the city of Fairfax, if a lot of size is less than one acre, or runoff is increased by less than 15% over the pre-developed conditions from September 17, 1974. Detention or retention will be required. This side shows whether release rate would look like if a site needed attention and had to control it to the 10-year storm limit. I would not talk a bit about the National Floor Insurance Program. The National Floor Insurance Program is currently listed by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, under the Department of Homeland Security. The National Frontiers Program is a voluntary community-based program in which the City of Fairfax participates. By participating in this program, the City of Fairfax affords its residents flood insurance through the National Flood Insurance Program. The City of Fairfax has established a special flood hazard area, which is a parcel or parcels of land or structures that are likely to be flooded during the storm that has a 1% chance of occurring in a year or the 100-year storm or the base flood. You might hear these storms if you were trying to inquire about flood insurance. The City of Fairfax, FEMA has given the City of Fairfax a flood insurance rate map. The latest one I think we have is for 2006. This flood insurance, this flood insurance shows the special flood hazard area. And a FEMA has developed several methods of adjusting these flood insurance rate maps because a lot of people like to get out of the flood in flood zone and reduce the insurance. So you have FEMA funded studies. You have limited map maintenance, and you have existing data studies. These are some of the things that FEMA does. And if you're interested in getting out of the floodplain, their community and property owners initiated amendments. And you would have to find an engineer and apply for one of these from FEMA. Either a LOMA, a letter of map amendment or LOMR, F, which is a letter of map amendment, based on fill. This is if you add in soil to your property to bring it out in a floodplain or a CLOMA, it's the conditional letter of map amendment or CLOMA RF. It's the conditional letter of map amendment based on fill. And when these letters are approved by FEMA, you can present them to the Zoning Administrator and get a floodplain permit. This is what I got. Are there any questions? Thank you, sir. Welcome. I would have questions to come in. One question. As you have shown in your diagram, you've got on page seven stormwater control outlet structure. At the bottom, and that looks very similar to the kind of structure that Farcroft put in for the pond, the runstone, I believe believe Daniel's run has the city found that type of structure to be effective and as it has it materially I improved the ability to control the flow rate downstream. Yes, what do you see on page seven is a typical tree stage control outlet structure. The lower stage here is where you can buy the two-year stone floor will be coming through. The higher stage is most likely where the 10 and 100 AF rows will be coming through. These are standard structures, designs that are in the state book, state handbook. So these are accepted and dispulsion properly. If they're designed properly. Okay. So I'm here to check the design and see that all the numbers. The state of works and my question I guess is the follow up, having now having experience with some of that, has that worked well? I know in the past the city has spent money for stabilization programs on various streams in order to stabilize the banks, we've got the rest of or the structure that was put in as I say at Farcroft. Department of the Interior has worked with Army Navy Country Club and working with strange stabilization going through the Country Club where it joins the Accident Creek just before it exits the city. Are those are those proving functional and productive at this time? Well, to correct the answer, a question, we'd have to go back to all the flood management ideology, which was to to to hold back the smaller storms and let the bigger floods go. And most of the detention systems in the city of Fairfax are of that older design. They are modern design, which I just explained to you, tends to store the smaller storms and let the bigger storms go. True. So to correctly answer your questions, to have a major impact on the streams, we would have to do some regional detention facilities of which we don't have any. Some modern detention facilities like Farcrow, then Pickett Reserve should tend to mitigate the total impact of the development on the stream. But as time goes forward and we try to establish more of these detention facilities, the situation should tend to improve. Okay. I guess my question comes. past Saturday. I was signed a planning commission representative for the Parks and Recreation Advisory Board. In the Proud Met, or all the Proud Members Met, and went through various parks and facilities looking at updates. One of the places we visited was the home of the Recreation Department's Equipment Storage, which is the City property yard on Picket Road. That is, I believe, the point at which the bulk of the city's water leaves the city and enters the county. During the visit, it was pointed out that if you get a big enough flood, we still flood the property yard. Yes. And my question, I guess, in a basic sense is, are we making progress or mitigating some of the flow control as it floods the property yard, or as we go forward, should we be cognizant to what we do with things like the Stafford property and other things that come along, that there are still major flood issues we should deal with in some of the modern techniques that have been developed to control some of the flow of water or are not working. Wow, to answer your question, the property on is in the flood hazard area. And to bring it out of that, we would have to elevate it. The stream crossing over Picket Road is a modern type crossing, and could accommodate the storms. However, the stream just before it can't. So that's why you have the flood being coming out of the stream and into the property. I didn't I think. True. I understand in the bulk of the property. I understand this parking area so that if it gets wet, the city can work around it until it. Until it recedes. Yes. But thank you. You're welcome. I believe in your presentation you said there was a program to inspect construction sites that were between one and five acres in size. Yes, but we inspect all of them. That was going to be my question. If it's larger than five acres, is there a different protocol? Well, the only difference is that it would have been under the first phase of the VPDES program. Okay. And under the second phase they went for smaller developments. Thank you. Mr. Sir, if you look at your page five on your handout, maybe I am not technical or anything at all, so maybe you can explain to me, you know what I'm talking you say just designs strong then you have 25 years that's fine I understood that 10 years hundred years but when you go down this is 10 years and then last one is two years two hours so what if I'm maybe I'm not getting it? 10 years and two hours? So I don't know what that means. Maybe I'm sure it must mean something. Well, this will indicate a certain intensity of rainfall over a two hour period. Or it would be the equivalent of that storm. Okay. All right. Now it makes sense. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Okay. Mr. Rodins. Good evening. Mr. Millard, thank you very much. We appreciate your comments in your time. Thank you. All right. The next item on the agenda is Ms. Freeman. You may excuse me, Chairman Foster. Ms. Freeman was involved with all of the string bank stabilization projects in the city. And if you have questions on that, she may be able to answer those as well. Ms. Caddell, I see. This kind of lesson. Could we get somebody to get the Good evening. Good evening. Good evening. Good evening. How are you? Fine. I'm going to get that on before we start. Go ahead. We'll follow along. All right. I am going to talk about green building programs. And I'm actually going to start with discussing some of the concepts and different green building programs around the region. And then I'm going to come back and try to entertain some input from the planning commission and how this will relate to the next update of the conference plan. So with that, I will get started. I wanted to start off giving you a, also before I start, please jump in with questions. I don't miss rather questions ongoing, instead of at the very end, just keep it working, and I've got the slide up here. So please don't hesitate to interrupt me. The Green Building definition that was put together by the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments, Green Building Committee, is states that Green Building is an approach to design, construction, and management that reduces the negative impact of buildings on the environment, all increasing building performance and occupant health. So it's kind of a broad definition on what we're trying to do. And I'm sure everyone has read about green buildings and the newspaper, global warming, all these current issues. So this leads into the fundamentals of sustainable development, which really ties into the whole green building programs, which is site selection. In the city, we're only six four miles, so it's a little bit different than some areas where you have more rural, and then you have, obviously, the more densely populated areas. We don't have a lot of different sites in the city, but how we select them is still fairly important, whether it's been previously developed, or whether it's currently open. Development, density, and community connectivity, how do we tie in to residential neighborhoods, stormwater which you heard a presentation on both quality and quantity are becoming major issues. And you heard that in the previous presentation, light pollution is another issue. Alternative modes of transportation, how are we planning these development sites? Do they have public transportation that goes to the sites? Currently, can we make public, can we design them such that public transportation can get there, bicycle and pedestrian routes? Do we have those trails in place? And also, on-site storage for bicycles. Do we have bicycle racks? And do we provide showers if people are going to potentially ride their bicycles to work, they probably need to shower before they go instead of their desk. So these are all things that people are now looking at a lot more than they used to. Then we go on to how to help an impacts the environment. Obviously air quality is a big concern. You get air quality degradation not only from the demands of the building to run it heating and air conditioning lights. Energy consumption has become a lot more of an issue with the advent of computers when we design this building. You have a lot more cooling. You've been cool this building in the winter because there's so much heat from all the computer monitors that we didn't have 10 years ago. The other issue is reduction in open land. We're not, if we pave everything that water is not getting into the ground anymore. And then of course, with that is increased stormwater runoff and the associated pollutants that go with that, you've got nitrogen and phosphorus and everything that's basically falling on the pavement is being washed into our strains. The impact on the environment as far as buildings, we're looking at 12% pot of water use, 39% energy use, 70% electricity consumption, 38% carbon emissions, and 60% non-industrial waste generation. These numbers may fluctuate a little depending on what report you're looking at, but it gives you a good idea of the types of energy demands from buildings. So if you're to design a green building, the green building counts so it'll estimate savings 30 to 50% less energy, and that that ranges again, how much you're spending to get a more efficient system, 35% less carbon dioxide, 40% less water use, and 70% less solid waste. So from this, it really looks like the green building trends have a significant impact on the environment. And I think that's why you're seeing a lot of governments getting into this and promoting it. the Greening the Metropolitan Washington Regions built environment. You should have a copy of the summary report of this. And so if you get a chance, grade that. And also if you're more interested, you can go online and get a full copy of the report. And this was put together by the Green Building group and I was actually I sat in on this and it was wonderful opportunity to be involved with the other jurisdictions on setting up this program. And it was approved in December of 2007 and basically includes recommendations for local governments and I'll go through some of those recommendations. One is to establish lead, which people probably heard of lead building design concepts, which is leadership and energy and environmental design as a preferred green building rating system for new commercial and high-rise residential projects. We actually had presentations from representatives from several other programs that in a sense do the same thing but we felt like LEED was generally well-documented, provided a good source for certification. There's people out that know how to do it, architects and engineers are certified. It seemed to be the most comprehensive system out there and that's what that decision was made. Lead Silver was established as the goal for our local government projects and the Washington region. And they set lead certified as a standard for private development. And I'll get on to what makes it lead certified or silver, whatever, in just a minute. In addition, recommendations included to work together on education and collaboration between the local governments to promote regional innovation and green buildings, and finally to implement actions and set a green building work plan. So with this report, COG is recommending that local governments use this as a reference guide to develop and implement green building programs and policies. Some examples of green building measures and you also have a lead checklist here and on that it has points that are given for sustainable sites, for instance, is one category. So it has site selection, development, density, storm water, and such. And it has a section for water efficiency, energy and atmosphere, materials and resources, indoor environmental quality, and innovation and design processes. So you basically go through and you obtain points for all these different factors. So some of the things that I've just highlighted on my slides are promoting redevelopment in residential zones, installing water efficient landscaping, optimizing energy performance. So again, all things that go towards reducing the impact of the development on the environment. And it is point-based. So certified is the lowest level starting at 26 points and then you've got silver, gold, and platinum. So you probably all read in the paper. There are not too many sites, but some developers are going for gold or platinum to kind of really promote this. But it certainly gets more expensive as you get towards platinum. Silver is probably a more achievable going. That's why the report recommends that, especially for government buildings. Some of the initial costs, depending on what you do, it can be almost no additional cost to 8 to 10 percent above a typical building. But again, you're looking at, you're getting much more efficient systems. You're buying higher quality. Over the long term, you're going to benefit. You're going to have reduced energy cost. And also probably maintenance cost is good because you have a better system. So, how are green building programs initiated in local governments? They're done through building codes, zoning ordinances, comprehensive planning and site plan requirements. Just wanted to point out, I guess, two of the city facilities that were constructed recently, and actually I didn't put the police station. So we've got City Hall, the police station, the library. These were designed, unfortunately, kind of right before the big push on this. I mean, we talked about it and we did implement certain lead categories or measures, but we didn't get the lead certification on these. But we do have energy star, some roofing materials. We have low-glades. Low-glades on the windows, low-flush toilets, high-efficiency water heaters. So we did work to incorporate as many things as we could afford with these projects. Other programs that we have in the city to help the environment and reduce our impact. We have the recycling program. We are retrofitting our traffic signals to LED, which use significantly less electricity than the typical bulbs that are in the traffic signals. We have cubos, diesel retrofits that are coming on board this year. We have the cubos provides free rides on code red and orange days. Then we want to move on. Another thing that COG has done has put together this regional green building policies and programs overview. So, you all have a copy of that. And again, I'm not going to go through this, but it has some of the other jurisdictions in what they've done. Some are minor, some have done a lot more Arlington, you probably read in the paper. They've probably been more progressive than anyone on the programs. But I did want to touch on some of the Fairfax County public facility guidelines. I'm sorry, the Fairfax County programs just because we are surrounded by them. And I felt that that was probably a good one to least discuss this evening on their public facilities. If it's less than 2500 square feet, they are including lead design items, but never required points. $2,500 to $10,000 square feet, they are going for lead certified. And again, if you remember on that one slide, I show the different points lead certified as the lowest of the ratings and greater than $10,000 accountings using lead silver as the goal. They've also recently amended their comprehensive plan to promote and encourage green building practices on our development projects. Also on non-residential multi-family units of four or more stories in certain high-density districts they are trying to incorporate measures to obtain lead certification or its equivalent. In residential developments again that seek development at the high end of the planned density range, they want them to meet energy star qualification homes. And I haven't brought up energy star previously, but that's really the rating system for residential homes. Lead doesn't really right now fall into that category. Have relief is developing more and more programs, so I'm sure fairly soon they'll have one for about every building use, but right now people are generally using the energy star for homes. They're also offering a density bonus if green building measures are incorporated. And some of the localities are actually either requiring the counties not requiring a fee, they're encouraging a fee contribution to support environmental initiatives. Arlington County actually requires that you pay into a program if you're not using lead certification and then that program can help the county work towards promoting more green building programs. So this brings us to the environment section of the City of Fairfax. This panel, we've got the city does not appear. Am I missing something or? No, that is correct. That's my purpose of being here. As I want the city to be in there, but I really, I have not had an opportunity yet to meet with the planning commission or the council and kind of feel like I really need to get input on where we want to go on this. And that's kind of what I'm leading into now. We certainly, and again, you know, if you read through some of these, they're very minor. Some people have more comprehensive programs. For instance, county, a lot of it's they encourage because it is. It's a big step to say you have to do this. I mean, obviously, you know, and that's where I need input on where we want to take the program before I can draft something for everyone to review. So in looking at the existing comp plan, obviously that the last revision was done before I think we had these major discussions of global warming and green buildings. So we certainly need to get that added into the next rewrite of the comp plan. So I would suggest adding sections to promote recommendations that at least meet the minimum of the goals that are put into from the COG report. I think that that's important if we've all kind of brought into the COG as being the group that we work towards meeting these objectives that we should at least need to minimum requirements, recommendations that they have in the report. And then again, I think we really need to look at how to make these developments more energy efficient. We also really need to look at how to make these developments more energy efficient. We also really need to look at how we want to deal with private development versus new development versus redevelopment. Because obviously already we have certain improvements that we get from redevelopment as far as from our Tuskegee Bay ordinance. We do get improved where we get non-point source pollutant reduction loads from redevelopment. So of course we want to encourage redevelopment from the standpoint of water quality and there's many other benefits as you well know for redevelopment, residential development and also public facilities. How far do we go with our public facilities? That's a question. In 25 words or less, can you discuss the difference between the co-extenders that you've just referenced and those of Fairfax County. Well, I think as far as public facilities, Fairfax County is meeting it. They're saying anything over 10,000 square feet will be lead silver, which I believe that was the same thing that was that was cod was saying. Now on the, they say, lead certified for private development. If you read the comprehensive plan and you probably are much better at understanding a lot of the jargon and comprehensive plans, I'm from an engineering background, but when I read it, it sounds more as if they're encouraging it. There's nothing that says you shall from what I got. It was encouraging. I think they're being cautious at this point as well, because it's a big step. And I'm sure they want development. They want redevelopment so you don't want to limit it too much. But it seemed to be, I think they're certainly working with, the feeling I get is that they're working with developers to try to promote green building measures in all projects, but I don't see where they're actually requiring it except, you know, if people are wanting to take things to get more density or they're really looking at the Tyson's area, I think it seemed to me that they were targeting these high density areas as being somewhere where they were going to be required more. But again, to me, it wasn't completely clear with how they've written it seemed to be more encouraging. Well, some of my thought process is that since we sit here in the heart of this Fairfax County Donut that our standards should be pretty similar because then there wouldn't be much difference between political boundaries. But our market is a little different. So we're not going to have large subdivisions, residential subdivisions go in. We're going to have more single projects. We're going to have more single projects. We're going to have additions. We're going to have commercial development that will be smaller in scale. And it would seem to me that we need to start thinking more in terms of the direction of the composition of our city rather than just purely in the abstract. So a lot of what I'm seeing here pertains to larger projects, new projects. But not necessarily the kinds of projects that will ever be here in the city. Well, I think you see that from Fairfax County now. If you look through some of the other jurisdictions, for instance, Arlington, even though they're much larger than we are, I think they probably tend to have more redevelopment, but again, larger scale. But the program can really be towards any building. It really doesn't matter the size. Obviously, when it's a huge development, overall, your impact is going to be greater. However, if we have a bunch of smaller projects, I mean, that's all we can do and we should still be doing it. The scale of the project really does not limit what you can do as far as on this checklist. And in fact, it's probably easier to do it on these smaller developments. Thank you. Just getting everyone a question going in this and looking at what the city's done in the last 10 years and the bond money that's been put to work in updating public facilities. You've mentioned the library, the police station, city hall. You can add to that all four of the city schools and at time frame. The bulk of the city's facilities have been updated. Where would they fall? Would they reach even the bottom wrong before we're talking about instituting here? And as we move forward and begin to set a standard, you've got 5,000 square feet in Arlington and you've got 10,000 square feet referenced in Fairfax County, those are not huge projects for buildings that would come along. Is the city just under the wire so to speak and not meeting a standard that we're going to put as a goal as we move forward? And is that something we should be? Well, I think the problem is we really didn't have a program place and neither really did anyone else. I mean this report came out in December 2007 which pretty much said okay now it's time to really start looking at this. And you know those projects were really designed even though they may have just finished construction a couple years ago they were really designed you know more you know 2014-2005. So unfortunately before this was really there wasn't a lot of data. There were a lot of concerns out there on how much more you're going to pay is it really going to have that big of an impact. So, you know, if we were starting those projects now, I think there'd be a big push to do lead. I'm hoping that, you know, future projects will now for city facilities would be lead. But I think there were still a lot of unknowns at that time. I mean, that's where we tried to incorporate as many features as we could into those projects. When we look at it, if you look at it from a hindsight standpoint, were we successful? If you look at those buildings today under the lead criteria, would you feel that they pretty well met? What has developed as a lead standard, or are we well short of them for whatever reason? I think in comparison to what these like for instance City Hall the previous building and what we have now much more energy efficient with a lot that we've put in there. Did we go to the level of lead silver now and part of that was probably the budget as well. I mean, we, you know, when that project in 2001, we had received, I guess it was 2004, the bonds construction took a huge jump at that point. So we really didn't have a lot of leeway in the budget, unfortunately. And that's what we tried to do as much as we could. And again, like I said, there were a lot of underlies at that point. It wasn't, it wasn't as such, even though it's not the norm today, it's becoming more than norm a couple years ago. It certainly wasn't. Then the one question I would have with us is we look at it from the comprehensive standpoint, comprehensive plan standpoint, and as it relates to it, we still have projects in the downtown area for development. The corner that the O'Fareff Exorff Shop is on and that the City owns and is in the process of getting for development. The addendum to the master plan that we've talked about for redevelopment of Fairfax Boulevard, North Facts, Camp Washington, Fairfax Circle, other projects downtown that will come through for redevelopment are all things that are going to be affected by the same standards if you will. Cost considerations are going to be significant and we're going to, if I take it from what we're talking about, talk about incorporating these kind of standards, which are going to put those costs on new building. The city won't be subject to them for a while, but we will impose them on everybody else that we're going to encourage to update their facilities. When I think that's why you really have to be careful, whether you encourage it or you mandate it and you know again there's a lot of things you can do that don't increase the cost that much but yet improve efficiently greatly so I think there's a happy medium where you're not you know not necessarily charging this to new developers you know obviously want them to come in but there's many things that they can do to meet the criteria that don't add a lot of cost, and I think it's just determining at what level we want it to. Okay, I think that's useful in terms of talking about either a silver, which is what other jurisdictions seem to be referencing, as you said, platinum gold and platinum were above that. And so much really more or less, they're saying for government facilities. I, you know, not all of them are saying for private. A lot of times for private, they're calling it either certified or certifiable. Which certifiable in a respect means that, okay, you've met these requirements, but you're not going through the certification process. Because a part of that increases your cost, you have engineering and architecture also contractor costs to do all of the reporting and documentation that's required to submit to the green building council for the certification. So in theory, you can have a certifiable silver level. That's our goal, that's what we want to achieve, but it's not a mandate. Correct. That's our goal. That's what we want to achieve, but it's not a mandate. Correct. But I think it's important to determine where the city wants to go in these four areas as far as private development, redevelopment, residential and public facilities so that we can have a plan that works for everyone. I think that helps me in terms of at least internalizing some of this as we talk about the standards then to come to a better understanding of what they are and what the implications are So I guess in this this slide I'm saying do we mandate or encourage I mean and I brought up do you do you make it certified or is it certifiable? You do energy star qualified homes or or if you have developers who really are not interested, do you set up an environment fund so that the city has some money, extra money to promote this elsewhere? These are all answers that we'll need in developing a program. And that's my overview of green buildings and I look forward to comments and I hope that we can establish a green building program in the near future. Ms. Robinson, believe us of. Thank you, Ms. Fremont, for your presentation. Very informal. Very informative, I call this. A couple of things that I would like to note that I think are very doable by the city and worth doing as it pertains to being a green city Rain barrels the county offers a rain barrel building class which I made my husband take and We for $50 he came home with two 52 gallon rain barrels Which are now one is a hokey and one is a blue hen but they once it's on the But once it's on the back, once it's on the front, and it took one storm to fill up the first one. So, you know, if there's a drought this year, I can still water my lawn whenever I want. I know where my husband's parents live in Lake Forest, the city you can buy from the city for $80 a rain barrel and they'll come and they'll deliver it. And that's something I'd like to see the city explore We found this just this program through the county quite absurdly by clicking on David bullet was website for something else So it's not the best advertised program and again, it's through the county if the city is offering recycling the way that it does and it's a great program in its mandatory, this is something given our water situation. To me, it's a no-brainer in terms of cost. What we might spend in the outset of purchasing these rain barrels, we would make up by selling it cost, but by not having the drain on our water facilities, when people want to move their water, their lawns wash their cars, you just took a hose up to it, and there's no difference in the water supply. So that is something I would like to see put into the, either into regulations or into a discussion to go forward. One of the other if I can just comment on that, and that is a program that I have seen those, and we can certainly look into establishing that. There's been a lot of discussion on rainwater harvesting if you do a search on the internet. You know, people use to have cisterns. When our people are looking at, there's actually a company out there that's installing them for very large box developments. And some of these developments are able to use that water for non-potable water use, the irrigate their landscaping. Persons have actually used it, used that water for non-potable water use, the irrigate their landscaping. Persons have actually used that water. You can filter the water to some extent, so they can use it for laundry services. I mean, there's an immense amount of water, actually, T.C. Williams High School in Alexandria, has a huge sister and they use that water. So it is something that's being looked at a lot now. And definitely a good point. Good. My second thing is the city currently offers a rent is on Sloan and in order to qualify for it, you have to, they come out and inspect your house and they also look at your landscaping. And generally when they grant a loan for renovations to the house, they usually put some type of landscaping requirement in the house too, whether it's chopped down a tree or rework your front yard. You need to be giving the house curb appeal from the outside in addition to doing whatever you want to do inside. It is possible, or it's something we should look into, making one of the requirements of a Renaissance loan if people are going to make improvements that, you know, a portion of the appliances installed be energy efficient or there be some means of making the house more green, whether it's through solar panels, whether it's through using a particular type of material and perhaps increasing the amount of the loan if it's going to cause significant cost increases on the front end for the homeowner or extending the length of the loan if it's going to cause significant cost increases on the front end for the homeowner or extending the length of the loan because the benefits obviously on the back end are a more green community. And then finally, when we issue building permits just in general for people who want to make recommendations, something worth discussing is whether or not the inspector who I've never done a full-scale renovation that required permits. But if the inspector comes out to begin with, and I guess it doesn't overview of what you're going to do, or you have to come to the zoning board and present what you're going to do, perhaps recommendations can be given or strongly encouraged by the inspector or the zoning administrator who's issuing the permit to point out to the person who wants to make the renovations where there are opportunities for green improvements that wouldn't necessarily significantly increase the cost or the scope or the length of the project. Thank you. Mr. Vaudetelli. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Vada-Cellie. Thank you. Thank you very much. I just have a couple of questions. Do you know if the Franks property development or Rocky Gorge, which is currently under, are going to be developed? Do they have lead requirements placed on them? No, I don't think so. They did not. The city does not have lead requirements in place. Okay. The second one is what can homeowners do to improve their property existing property? There are actually a lot of guidelines out there. I'm probably not as familiar on the residential home front. I could certainly pull some information and get it to you. I know Arlington County has done a lot of work on residential home issues. And there is that information out there. I mean, you know, if you're not doing renovations, you know, some of the more obvious things are you can have your house checked for drafts and you know, what type of windows do you have and what type of heating and air commission systems do you have and those types of things. I mean I don't know are you talking about new new construction or just existing? I was talking about existing. You're talking about like storm windows or storm doors or to keep drafts down. Well I mean a lot of energy is lost through your house. A lot of your heating is lost and cooling so I mean that one area is your insulation and checking drafts up. Another is that when you upgrade your dishwasher, your washing dryer, I mean there's much more energy efficient models out there. Overall if your house structure is built beyond you know adding insulation, checking your windows and the energy efficient appliances, unless you're going to do major renovation, I'm not aware of other items that are really going to lower your use without doing something that impacts that more so. Thank you. Mr. Williams. Has there been any talk of any sort of tax incentive or something along those lines for developers who follow feet? Yes. I've looked over a lot of different governments, not only in the Missouri, but others, and some do provide tax incentives for incorporating the need. How does that work, usually? I mean, I think people have done it in different ways, depending on, you know, if you want to, you know, again, right now with government budgets so tight, I don't see a lot of incentives out there, but certainly depending on what they're doing, I could see that you could look at, you could look at different whether it's direct taxes or or other fees that are paid that there could be a reduction in those fees if you are incorporating lead measures. More long lines of the one-time fees being. Typically that's what I've seen either either in your you know and and some of them that they don't cost you anything is they expedite your view which in a lot of areas that that's about in a Senate South as you can expedite a review, which in a lot of areas, that's a bonus in itself as you get an expedited review if you incorporate me. I haven't seen huge tax incentives, but some people do have some. It seems to be more popular to get the expedited review, but certainly you could look at numerous avenues for helping developers if they were to incorporate me. Thank you. Well, your presentation didn't indicate that the upfront cost was that significant. And you talk about 0.4% to 8%. Right. But to a lot of people, it's a big deal. When it 8%'s fair when you're doing a million dollar project. Any other questions are comments. Thank you very much. I think maybe we should look into some kind of narrative that we can consider for the comprehensive plan for both the lead approach and the storm water management approach that Mr. Mallard was addressing. Yeah, the purpose of this tonight especially was to bring forward the planning commission some things that have changed since the last time you looked at. You know, we've talked about increased urbanization and some of the new requirements tonight, green building, light pollution. We haven't done a lot with respect to that. Rainwater harvesting, some of the opportunities for that, as Ms. Robinson mentioned, and how we get to a carrot or stick approach to deal with these leads issues. What can we offer as incentives? Not everything that you do is a shell. If it's a shell, that it's legislation and it's a stick, it's a requirement, but the comp plan will set goals for implementing these, you implement them through rezoning, for example, in the proper system. You might, you asked earlier about the checklist, you can go forward and say that a building must be lead certified or you're not going to prove it. That's the stick approach and it can be heavily costly. Or you can say, all right, you're going through a rezoning, bring us a checklist and show us what you have done. So that this body that City Council can consider, the degree to which they have made effort to reach that in its deliberations as a proffer. So there are a lot of things we can do as part of the planning commissions review, look at whether or not the comp plan needs to be reviewed. I expect that your resolution in showing all these things will say yes and that for this section we will incorporate those three or four things into this section. I mean I call Miss pretty much back for an encore for just a second. I thought of a question when you were discussing in the moving. Is there much work going on in whether it's storm water management or reuse of rain water on building structures with roof collection systems, which then leads me to the obvious question, how much does the gallon of water weigh and what does it do to the structural issues of structure like that? Most of the, I just actually attend today, seminar of the Virginia Tech Extension Center last week on Rainwater harvesting and a lot of other local jurisdictions were there. So it is becoming a big topic. Generally, the water is put in either in a above ground system or below ground. It's not stored on the roof. The only, in a sense, if you do a right, or a green roof, you are storing some water up there to support the plant material. And you certainly do have to look at the structural integrity of the roof. I have not seen any, there were no discussions of storing anything on top of the, the structure, but certainly above ground or below ground. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Six and a half pounds per gallon. Oh, and I'm sorry, I didn't answer it. But there are calculations for four hundred pounds. Take somebody's stuff, so we'll just straight tomorrow, allow. But there's certainly a calculation for how much you get off of per square foot of roof. And it's a lot. And as you mentioned, your rain barrel, and it's almost a problem, the rain barrels really don't hold enough. They will fill up extremely quickly, whereas with you would actually design your sister based on a certain storm. And how much of that water you could use. Thank you. Ms. Rowanh, I know that the clock is ticking for the construction of the community center to start wherever we are in that process. Seems to teach daily. But and we probably won't have new regulations put in place by the time that starts. What can we do, or what can we strongly encourage city councils to do in regards to the specifications of the community center and what types of green things we would like to see go into. I know that there's a specific budget. I know there are specific specifications that were built into the gift itself. But in terms of what we actually have a say in and wanting to make it as green as possible because theoretically this is going to be our community center for the next gazillion years, I would think it's in our best interest to make it as green as possible despite the fact we don't have anything mandating that at this point. I know Ms. Fremont sure if we can do that. I'm not sure if we can do that. I'm not sure if we can do that. I'm not sure if we can do that. I'm not sure if we can do that. I'm not sure if we can do that. I'm not sure if we can do that. I'm not sure if we can do that. I'm not sure if we can do that. will incorporate as much as we can. I think there's certainly an interest to incorporate lead measures and I think there's an interest even see if we can make it do sort of fiable as far as I don't know that we'll have the funding to actually go through the certification process but certainly try to meet as many of those items as we can. Mr. Cunningham. As a follow-on to that, the City Council recently held open public hearings and that of the three lawyers. In the city of the architect, was there along with the Parks and Recreation Advisory folks? The architect was very proud of the effort that they have made to design as many of those green or certifiable characteristics into the building as possible. So I know that has been one of the thoughts behind the construction of this building. And I know that the City Council deals with the trade-offs that are involved to keep the project within cost. That as much of that as being incorporated as possible from that standpoint. I guess the other two questions if I may follow on. Please do. It's segue that way. With my questions to Mr. Boulard, I noticed that you had interest in the back also as far as water management within the city. Are we making progress with the stream stabilization, their retention pond and release and the other activities were taking on a on a Grander scale as major projects coming along in in better controlling our runoff and release rates I mean it's a heart. It's a very difficult process. I mean, I've been here 19 years and I'm sure some of you potential lived here longer than 19 years or from my with the area. The problem is we have so much stormwater and I know that Far Cry Pond was mentioned in this peter. Disgust it was really only designed, even though it's an in-stream pond, it was really only designed to meet the need for Far Cry. I would like to see the city at some point take that pawn and look at, you know, if they could expand it to more of a regional facility. We actually did do report, gosh, it's probably been 10 or 15 years ago, we looked at where we could potentially put some regional facilities in the city. One was mostly woods. One was actually just off the university drive. We held public meetings. We were not successful in getting public buy-in to these projects. They're very difficult to cite and even if you're looking at a regional facility unless it was extremely large the impact that it has is somewhat minimal. So I think the best thing we can do is in looking at how we in the future design these developments and try to keep the new buzzword is ESD environmental site design and the stormwater regs will be are going to change and it looks like April of 2009 and the stormwater regs are going to come about. There's going to have a lot more requirements as far as both quantity and quality. And in a sense it makes our job easier and that if the state says this is what you have to do, it's not each city or county making their own rules. And it will be looking at trying to get water to not leave the site in the amount that it leaves. Currently, the problem is we're built out. So we've got how many years of past development that didn't do anything that we have to make up for. And that's really the problem. We have major challenges coming. We've got North Facts as alluded to where we're still trying to get a road development project through. And that's been going on almost as long as you've been in the city from my recollection and we're not there yet. But stormwater management coming out of that going into the Stafford property, the Stafford West property as it comes along is a, is probably the largest stormwater issue that the city will deal with any time in the future that I'm aware of or will see. And that's. I've had discussions with Dave Hudson and he is very interested in bringing innovative stormwater measures into that project. I mean, that might be a great area to look at rainwater harvesting. You know, and just take water out of the equation or other measures. I mean, there's a lot you can do. You know, we used to try to design everything and get it off as fast as we could and we did a great job at that. Now we're paying for it. So now it's try to keep it on the property, but you're right, North Fax and the Fairfax redevelopment, Fairfax Full of Road redevelopment offers a great opportunity to do some of this. Since Mr. Cunningham kicked open the door, the question I was thinking about earlier when Mr. Malar referred to the earlier when Mr. Milar referred to the LOMR F program, the Phil projects. And we talked about the property yard. I know we've approved a project at 123 and Rust Curve that involves some Phil, a project that's judicial and main that involved fill. And each one of them in isolation is not that big a deal. But what is the aggregate effect of some of this? I mean, the water has got to go somewhere. Does it affect the flow rates? Is it going to, are we creating a greater aggregate problem over time? Is there an approach to the policy that we should alter to deal with this issue? I guess I've always been concerned with filling the flood fine. You have engineering companies that have very sophisticated models. And they come back and say, OK, we've modeled this and it's fine now. I mean, I've seen projects come in and they certify that it's been modeled and that this area is now out of the floodplain. But again, they're models. And what actually happens in reality, no one can say for sure, but I think every time you fill in the floodplain that it certainly can't help. How much worse it makes it, you know, that's a hard question to answer. Thank you. All right, seeing no more questions, we'll let you off the note now. Thanks for your time. Would you like to lead us in the discussion of item number seven? Sure, very briefly. This was an outreach program by this planning commission. October 2008 is National Community Planning Month, and this year's theme was green communities. So this body decided that you all would go out to the local schools and ask for participation of our students in this, in looking at this theme. You have in your packages what we sent to the schools giving them sort of things that go into green communities, giving us ideas to jumpstart their posters. We received posters, a total of 28 posters. I think a pretty good return from Providence Elementary School and Daniel's Run Elementary School. You've received copies of all of those and they are out in the foyer for folks to look at. We've done a balloting process this evening and we've got crunch those numbers in the spreadsheet. We will come up with five top prizes out of those. We do have for everyone who has submitted both a certificate and a small prize that is related to this topic and then some awards for the top five which are again our green products that are related to this. The science teachers and the art teachers got together and did this as a joint project, which we really appreciated. And I noted on APA's the American Planning Association's website. They listed what various states were doing this month. Virginia started off with our governor issuing a proclamation declaring this National Community Planning Month. And there were three or four projects listed by various towns and counties in the state. I will add ours to this list so that for next years, people are looking at the kinds of activities that planning commissions can engage in. They can learn from our example. And so at the next meeting, we will be bringing back to you the top five candidates. We are going to invite all the children, teachers, parents, whoever would like to come to the meeting to come, but we'll make a special push to try and get the top five with us. And I'm going to speak with the city's scene editor and see if we can get the winning poster and or you know a couple of Chia's room and something about our program in next month's city scene. Good. That's the report. Thank you. Would you, is anyone wish to come in on the artwork other than quickly to say I hope there are no single shots. Folks in there that everybody voted for five. We hit everybody to vote for five. Oh good. All right. Would you care to move right on into the staff report? Glad to. Over the next few months we've got several different things coming at us. In November, we will be looking at Fairfax Boulevard Master Plan. We'll get into a discussion of where we will be going with that. This is all leading to in January coming out with the actual resolution to be passed by this body that we need to amend the Comprehensive Plan. That and the environment section the history section Park section and housing all have issues that we'll need to address and we'll do those one by one through the spring but we need to get to the point where you can make a finding that yes we see we need to do this so I expect in November that'll be taken up which meeting will I Well, both November 10th and 24th, down the 10th, will at the first part of it, deal with the green posters and the families that are here, put that early so they can then, if they wish, move on, and then we can get into the beginnings of the Boulevard discussion, and then carry that through on the second meeting. So that's the 10th of the 24th. In December we always get into our capital improvement program. Now normally we don't have that second meeting in December because a lot of people are either not engaged from the community because they're busy with holidays and they go out of town. So normally you would have a regular meeting on the 8th. We would post a schedule on the first of December a work session where the folks would come in and from the various agencies and give their presentations on the capital improvement program. We'll have to work that out because that is a school board meeting night. As you were called last year, we had to work out which one would be shown live and which would be delayed, but we'll make sure that we get both of them together. So subject to an issue from the board we would schedule for the first and the eighth of December and drop the third, you know, the meeting later in December. Then we'll go into January and that's when we expect to go forward with this resolution of, you know, finding that we need to amend the comp plan, you'll have elections coming up in that period, and we'll bring forward this full work program. As part of that, this whole zoning ordinance amendment will be part of the work program, writing a little bit ahead of the rest of the ordinance, we may have a couple of text amendments with respect to signs that we need to sort of clear off. There have been some issues with theon signs that we want to try and be as business friendly as we can. Sometimes the ordinance can get in our way a little bit and that's easy enough to fix. So we're going to try and fix that. So that's what we have on our plate. Thank you. Question Mr. Channing. Do we have not the triplet is not full enough? But do we have adequate guidance in that to continue working on those items associated with the Fairfax Boulevard master plan to see that we can keep the work going along that line along with some of the other major issues that I know have been coming along and working. I know in this past spring, City Council of one of their meetings indicated there was one issue with the master plan that they were ready to pass off to the planning commission so that we can begin working on it. And as such, City Council has a more than full play at the present time also with budget issues and other things. But I would hope that we can still spend time and effort in trying to get those specific issues with the master plan, with housing, zoning, and those kinds of things moving forward to help us with our deliberations. Sure. There are projects that are out there pending, even as we're trying to adopt the formal aspects of the plan, and those are heavily involved with housing and zoning, and we'll bring those forward in the process. And the process, okay. Then one additional issue since it involves staff and budget. I'm happy to note that we have three new members on the Planning Commission with us for this year. And as such, as our Acting Vice General will note, the city in the past has funded attendance at the Virginia Planning Commissioners' course. With three members, I don't know if I've three new members or a word of that, that's of course given by Virginia Tech. It's given in two sessions, a first session, at one location of the state, a second session, at a second location. And I believe it's four to five months between those two sessions so you can do an adequate amount of homework in preparation, but it's an excellent base or grounding in what planning commissions do and how they can work. And I know that Mr. Foster will comment on that being our most recent attendee and graduate. But I would highly recommend it and is staff, do we still have money in the budget to fund all three of our new members attending the various sessions as we're coming up and begin the major projects we're working on? Let me look and see what the next two or three sessions are. Sometimes when you can catch at least one of the two sessions local, it makes a little bit easier because you don't have, first of all, you don't have to go out of town, second of all, wait on paper, hoot bells and tramble. Let me see what it is and see what we've got and I'll bring it back to you. Thank you. Thank you. Let's move into commission report or comments and start tonight with Mr. Landis. If you have anything? No comments this evening. Thank you. Mr. Baudicelli. Comments. Mr. Kennedy-Aim. I will comment on the Park and Rec Advisory Board as I say. They've gone through all of the parks. They had written a comprehensive review of things and items that they felt made it to be addressed and updated to make the parks more usable for the city as whole. And as such, this past weekend, they met to again do a park's visitation and review to continue that project. And I know from attending their meetings that they're very serious about trying to proceed with their master plan, but recognize that budget constraints are going to make it very difficult to be able to complete either the CIP items or the master planning that they would like to be able to do, but they are working actively on that and would pass that information onto them. Okay. Thank you. Dr. Cahn? Yeah. Two comments from the Chairman. Number one, I would say the presentation on lead was fantastic, with really excellent, although I didn't have any question, but it's really well done. Secondly, I would say participation by school children is a terrific idea, because as a psychologist, I was looking at each picture with their thought processes, just phenomenal. And I think that especially I would like to comment the first grader, I don't know how we can give him something special. It was, I just couldn't honestly, I was so amazed that five years, six years old young man and a boy or girl was able to conceptualize all that. So it was commendable with it. And the last thing I would say, that unless you have a guidance and motivation and teachers really, motivation guidance, these children do not produce the quality of work they did. So I would recommend that whatever we are going to give give prizes to participants, at least a certificate of appreciation to the teachers who really, because it requires a lot of work on the part of the teachers. You can see that I want to work these children daily, it's phenomenal. And it also indicates to me that teachers really were dedicated to have done it. So I would really recommend Mr. Chairman that we should do a special appreciation for the teachers. Thank you. Thanks. Mr. Robinson? I would like to give a round of applause. Onside about the lead presentation, it was as a green person that makes me very proud and happy to know that we're going to really focus on this. And second, tonight there was an outreach meeting between George Mason and the Green Acres neighborhood regarding green acres and some concessions that George Mason wants to make as they begin to develop faculty housing basically in green acres backyard. And supposedly according to the letter we received, George Mason is willing to make some improvements to green acres part. So that could be something that ultimately comes for us. I've specifically requested through the City Council and the mayor that if they are talking concessions and upgrades that they put in a pavilion with picnic tables since there's no shade at the facility and Council member Greenfield said that he would bring it up if someone from the neighborhood didn't. So that's just something that could come down the pike for us depending on the outcome because I do believe it's going to involve taking down some trees and doing some more things, because it's gonna be right behind the line of trees that run behind the school. So thank you. Thank you. I'd like to find a way to thank Mr. Horndorf and Mr. Moulard and Ms. Freeman for their time tonight and their thoughts. I think it will prove to be a value to us as we try to work on the complaint. Excuse me. And I'd like to echo the comments about the thanks to the kids and the teachers for what they did. You know, we can have them in here, maybe we should go to them. But something to let them know we appreciate their interest. I thought we'd invite all of those teachers as well to our meeting. I did draft for the Chairman's signature a letter to the chairman of the school board commending the superintendent who sort of put this all together and all of the teachers by name who were involved so that there's something in their records as well. But hopefully they'll come to the meeting. The discussion of stormwater management brought them in the lot on judicial drive that I drove around ditches all summer and not much has been going on there. Is there any way we could find out where that project is? The property is in bankruptcy, is tight up in a bankruptcy situation that always makes it very difficult. Our attorney is working with and looking into that situation because obviously the adjacent business owners aren't happy for a long time they were looking at a Don's John that's gone. That took I think it's because they didn't get paid so they took it away but I mean there's we're looking into it. Okay. It's just a tough situation. All right. And finally I wanted to make note of Council's truly enlightened decision to reappoint me to the commission. My term expires at the end of this year, and I've been reappointed for another term. So, you know, Council just did a wonderful job on that. Is there anything else to be brought before this group tonight? Their motion for adjournment. Someone? Second? We got a second. All those in favor? Hi. Okay. Good night. Thank you I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going to be a little bit more careful. I'm going Tim Cain. Unexpected disasters can happen at any time with little or no warning. Hack now to get ready Virginia. Learn how your family can get an emergency kit, make a plan, and stay informed. Visit ReadyVirginia.gov. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. 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