We'll go ahead and call the meeting to order. Let me welcome everybody to the December 11th meeting in the Fairfax City Council. If you please stand for the invocation and remain standing for the invocation, remain standing for the Pledge of Allegiance. The invocation will actually be presented by Councilmember winner, Mr. Councilmember Rasmussen. It is not with us. He's just gone through some minor surgery and at home resting well and we look forward to coming back to us at our next meeting and this is when there's agreed to give the invocation in his death. Let us pray. Dear Lord be with us this evening. Guide us in our decisions. Give us wisdom and grace to be good stewards for the betterment of our city. Protect those who protect us, both here and abroad, and bless all of us this holiday season, keep us safe, and give us good times with our loved ones and friends. In your name we pray, amen. are loved ones and friends. In your name we pray, amen. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, individual, with liberty and justice for all. If you please be seated. We have two short presentations. I'd like to ask Janice Miller, who's the chair of our school board, who actually is here with us tonight in the role as a member of Friends of Fairfax. That's sponsor our wonderful chocolate lovers festival and I'll turn it over to you for the presentation. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Good evening, Rob. Mr. Mayor, members of City Council, City staff and members of the public. I am Janice Miller and I'm a member of the Friends of Fairfax. And I am here this evening to present the annual Chocolate Lovers Valentine to the mayor, the City Council members, and Mr. Assistant. The Chocolate Lovers Festival began in 1992, and ever since that time, Friends of Fairfax has been the sponsor of the Taste of Fairfax. That's the event at Old Town Hall where you can go in and for a nominal sum of money can buy a variety of chocolate whether it be candy, whether it be cake or some other non-fattening confection. Since we first instituted the taste of chocolate, the Friends of Fairfax has donated a little over $74,000 back to the community in the form of grants. These grants go to nonprofit organizations in the Central Fairfax area. This year, over Mr. Marriant bike. Just where I step in. I didn't see my act on the floor. This year we are very pleased to, we've selected this year the Ford House as our annual Valentine. The Valentine, there's a limited edition, there are 350 that were printed and of these we are going to give you on as well as other members of council. They sell for $7 and with that you get a coupon for $5 that you can buy chocolate with at the Old Town Hall and we are selling those through members of friends at City Hall in the C manager's office at the museum at Circa and at Sweet Life F.A. And we hope that you all will take an opportunity to purchase one and of course come to the taste of chocolate. Thank you very much. It is, uh, for anybody in the room who's been there, it is really truly one of the highlights of the year. It's, uh, almost a victim of its own success. If you've been there, you've got to be used to standing in long lines because of the large number of people who come and participate in the neat thing about buying in advance is not only to get the discount, but you also get this wonderful limited edition. I got very nervous and she passed one of these out to every member of council and I got nervous because she didn't give me one. I had to clarify that she was going to wait until now to give it to me. So Mrs. Miller, thank you. But wonderful event. Put it in your calendar and buy your Pogs in advance or you can certainly buy them at the door as well. The next presentation is a presentation on the Jamestown 2007 Steering Committee. Mr. Trexler? Still me? Carter. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. Here. I mean, I met Truckswell and I'm chairman. I had a great pleasure being chairman of the Jamestown 2007 program, which we began working on, I think, in 2003. This is Hilde. Connie Hilde, you would like to. Hilde was the president of HSCI when we began the program. Karen is the president president, but she's not here quite yet. But at job today is a pleasant one. It's to present a certificate of appreciation to the City of Fairfax. They are a council for participating in the James Dane Program. From my point of view, it's been a great experience. We have accomplished quite a lot. Everything we set out to do we did. We had great participation from within the city. The City Council for Mayor, We had great participation from within the city. The city council, the mayor, participated in one of our presentations of historic markup. The FAFACTS High School made a dramatic presentation of the George Mason's FAFACTS resolutions. We have a CD of that. We had on display George Mason's FAFACTS resolutions, and they are still on display. And a treat that we had was to have a copy of the actual resolutions on loan from the Lager, the junior for, I think it was too much that we had there. So it's been a lot of fun, but a lot of work, and it was in particular a lot of work, I think, for the staff. And one of the things I wanted to do is to thank the council and the staff over here for the great participation we had from people like Joanna Amscher, from Dr. Chris Martin from Susan's Ray, and Susan's staff. We had helped from the school board. We had, most of these have spelled out in the program, but in addition, this is the last program of our draper-hiss presentation. But we also had good participation from places like Paul to Six Hospital who participated in both the research and the dedication of the old FFACTS hostile historic mark on one of the markers from the first one that we did this year. Then Mount Calvary Baptist Church, which is the first African American church in the city, was extremely helpful to us both in research. We were able to, we interviewed them in preparation for installing the historic marker at the at their old baptismal hurry that was really a great experience. Also they helped us with the school, the Rosemore School marker and that presentation. If any of you were there, And that presentation, if any of you were there, at the presentation, which was a dual presentation, the now-cowvery church choir participated, and you could see that out of that was more than just illuminating history. There was a whole lot of fellowship in that came in at that presentation, which I hope that we will continue with. I'm doing research towards writing a book on African American History in the city, and they have some amount of material and helping me with that. So hopefully there will be another outcome from that set of work. We accomplished a lot and it was a lot of fun. I think the city is better off the illumination of its great history, but I would suggest that we don't stop there. This particular city has a lot of history that's recorded history and we should take advantage of that. We should be proud of that history. We should do everything we can to eliminate it. Because I think that the part of protecting our future is for people to know that the city is a precious and very historic place. Now I've said quite a lot, and I have two ladies here that can say, hold on, more. Well, I just want to thank you very much for being chair of that committee. I was president at the time and when I asked for volunteers, he was very willing to come forward and do it. So thank you very much. It was an exciting time and we were looking forward to celebrating that James Town celebration and I think that we did a very good job with involving the city and it was very exciting. Thank you. And Karen Stevenson is the president now. And Jamie, thank you very much. Yeah, I just want to say thanks to Ed, of course, and the rest of the committee that worked on the historic markets markers last year. And I know this was an honor of the Jamestown celebration, but I also know HFCI, and I think you'll see some more start markers in the new future. Thank you. All along, we've got to get a quick picture of it. And let me just say to all of you, all on behalf of my colleagues in the community, we know a lot more work went to it than just the actual events, which I know many of us had an opportunity to participate in, but you made us all proud of certainly reliving and highlighting our history in the city of Fairfax is what we all are about as a community. We appreciate your leadership and that we're all so thank you very much. You look right up here. Thank you very much. Okay. That now brings us to gen. Item number four, which are presentations by the public on any item that is on tonight's City Council agenda, but does not call for a public hearing. If you're here to talk to us about items 7a, that public hearing opportunity will actually come up in a few minutes. But if you'd like to address the council on any other items on tonight's agenda, this would be your opportunity. First to sign up as Chris Chris here? No? It's not? Nobody? Oh, come on down. I can't right now. You can't. Okay. Okay. Anybody else in the audience like to address the City Council again on any item tonight's agenda that does not call for a public hearing? I'm trying to buy as much time as I can here. Anybody have a joke or a story we can tell? What I would suggest we do, we can always go back to the individual signed up in a few minutes. Okay, if not, we're going to go ahead and move on. We'll keep that item open just for a minute. But a gin and iron number five is the adoption of the agent. So moved by Mr. Sereuthhran seconded by Mr. Greenfield in any discussion. All in favor of the motion signify by voting aye. All right. Opposed to pass you unanimously the approval of the consent agenda. Smith? Ms. Winner? I move adoption of the consent agenda for agenda item number 6A, consideration of an award of a contract in the amount not to exceed 95,596,500 to William H. Gordon for Design and Engineering Services for Providence Park, Tennis Courts and Providence Elementary School 90-foot baseball diamond and agenda item number 6B, consideration to awards contracts not to exceed the total of 75,000 for engineering and surveying services for minor projects during fiscal year 2007-2008. And for agenda item number 6A and B, I move to approve the suggested motion in the staff report. Second. Moved by Ms. Winner, seconded by Mr. Greenfield. Does anybody wish to object or abstain from the handling of any of these items on the consent agenda? Hearing none, all in favor of the motion is signified by voting aye. Opposed and a passionate anise. I now see our presenters back in the room. Would you like to come and address the council and move back real quickly to agenda item number four? Assume you're going to introduce your guest with you as well. Hi, my name is Chris Ruck. This is my son Evan Ruck. We live at 408 Addison Road, Fairfax. I'm here to address the agenda item on the changes at Ratcliffe Park. I was here a couple of weeks ago, months ago. I can't even remember how long it was. I want to reiterate what I said back then is that director McCarty has been outstanding in his efforts in working with the community and addressing public comment. And I just had a couple of minor comments on the latest plan that that work that had came out. And I just wanted to again, I have another big blow up to show you all. And again, just some really minor things, for instance, the tree protection along Savior Avenue. It doesn't need to have quite as much tree protection there. The other part was the placement of a couple of the trees on the eastern side of the park. One of the trees is located very close to a hill that is used often for sledding by young individuals. I thought that the placement of that tree could be better served in a lower portion of the park. The other thing was, I guess my final comment was, and I guess my strongest comment also is on the choice of the trees. The trees that were selected were actually selected and they were on the National Park Service and Fish and Wildlife Service invasive plants of the mid-Atlantic. Unfortunately, not all municipalities have this out of the planting code. So one of the things I was going to suggest is using current Virginia native plants and probably using non oak or non-hickory plants up on the children. So anyhow, that was it. I'm going to hand this over to Director McCarty. And thank you very much for your time. And I appreciate you holding open the item. OK. Thanks for being here. Thanks. OK. We'll now go to gen 9 number 7, which is our public hearing. 7a is a public hearing and council action for request for fair city HHHLC by Benjamin Danforth for approval as special use permit to allow big box retail development best by and the C2 retail commercial zoning district as special use permit for approval of the minor. Auto repair consisting of car, audio and alarm installation, a special exception to allow a signage larger than what is permitted by right at the front and rear facades and to permit two movement signs containing multiple tenant signs and larger than what is permitted by right. On the premises known as 9-009-688 Main Street Fair City Mall. Has this been properly advertised? Yes. Staff report, please. Thank you. Fair City Mall proposes to replace the Ross department store with a best buy measures 30,000 square feet, approximately the same location and size where the current Ross store is. Best Buy is considered under the zoning ordinance as a big box retail use, which is permitted in the C2 district with a special use permit. In addition, part of their operation includes the sales and installation of audio electronics, which under the zoning ordinance is another special use permit for accessory use, minor auto repair, as it's called, under the zoning ordinance. Part of the big box or the best buy application in addition to the big box is the big box is a special exception for signage beyond that which is allowed under the zoning ordinance, both on the front and they propose 808 square feet of which most of us would recognize 247 square feet as a sign. The remainder is a large blue architectural design that's part of the company logo that has been deemed under the zoning ordinance to be technically a sign. And on the rear, a 16 square foot or 16, 18 square foot sign on the rear of the building. Associated with the application, Fair City also plans to replace the existing monument signs at the project. There's one at Main Street entrance and one at the Pickett Road entrance with signs approximately the same size of a different shape or configuration at 160 and a half square feet each and 23.8 feet tall. The two special exceptions are tied together, or special use permits, I'm sorry, are tied together in that both are needed to permit best by to operate. So they're presented together for one action and by City Council to approve both. Then the special exceptions for the two building signs are also presented to City Council as a single action. And finally, the special exceptions for the screen, is toward the center of the wing of buildings on the west side. Orientation, the bottom of the screen is Main Street. The small building at the bottom of the screen is the Wendy's. The right side of the screen, just off to the right, is Pickett Road. And the small building on the right side is the McDonald's building. The red marker location is where Best Buy would locate. You can see the rectangular configuration of the building and that is the current location of Ross. The application is to be evaluated based on criteria specified in the zoning ordinance under section 110-366 and 110-185. The other drawing that you see now on the screen is rotated 90 degrees from the original with picket road at the top of the screen and main street at the right side of the screen. And you can see only if you got very close locations of the two signs, and I'm sure you can't see it on your screen or at home on the televisions, but the red locations are where those signs would be located. I mentioned a blue wing that was considered technically part of the sign and that's not the front entrance of the building. On the screen is the color elevation of the front of the building with only shown the location where the current raw story is and where Best Buy would be located. The rear of the building would include two new garage doors to access the area where installation of auto electronics would occur with the 18 square foot sign over the two doors, a single sign between the two doors. The two monument signs would be additional square footage beyond that, which is allowed by the code additional height and also would allow multi tenant signage where under the code only the name of the shopping center is currently allowed. Location and this was an early drawing that has since been determined that it would actually be set back a little further away from the entrance than is shown here to make sure that it meets set back requirements. Set back requirements in this case ten feet on the picket roadside existing signs and would be set back 20 feet on the main street side. Staff recommendation is approval of the special use permit with five conditions. The first, the vehicle service been kept entirely within the service space at all times. The second, the applicant would provide a rear sign that's not illuminated and no more than 18 square feet. The third, in fact, we wrote this a couple of weeks ago at the time that we advertised saying that prior to issuance of any permit for construction or use, the Best Buy Store would demonstrate to the satisfaction of the zoning administrator that car alarms tested from inside the service base will comply with the noise standards of the zoning administrator that car alarms tested from inside the service base will comply with the noise standards of the city code. We have since performed tests and determined with the zoning administrators' offices equipment that in fact that will happen as long as those garage doors stay down. And we've also found from a subjective standpoint that even beyond the property line, at the point of the closest end unit townhouse in Comstock, which is the closest residence to the proposed Best Buy Store that the sound from car alarms or loud bass from stereos inside the building being tested would barely be audible and would should not be considered annoying. The fourth condition no car alarm would be installed or tested after the hour of 8 p.m. And the fifth, the hours of operation should be limited to 10 a.m. to 9 p.m. Monday through Saturday and 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. on Sunday. And the staff recommendations for I'm sorry, seven conditions. Number six, should best by cease to operate, the blue wedge sign would be removed and the building facade would need to be at all times in substantial conformance with the drawings presented with the application. The recommendations on the two special exception or all the special exception requests are for approval. That concludes staff's presentation. Thank you. Just a quick question. I mean, hours of operation. I know we're right now in the holiday seasons and, you know, every time I pick up a newspaper, the store opens up at 4 a.m. in the morning and closes at 2 a.m. and there's lines out the door for specials and starts shortly after Thanksgiving and goes to the holidays. Would that kind of flexibility be built in if we passed it in its current verbiage or would that be a limiting factor to that? I'll take it. Thank you. We have, we included those hours as those were the hours that were listed in the application. We talked to the applicant after that and recognized that we all recognized that extended hours. It's just a matter of course, particularly during the holiday season. The applicant, when the applicant comes to respond or make a presentation, he's going to have an alternative hour. We have discussed it within and we're on board with it. But in any event, I won't go ahead. Okay, you'll then. Thank't. Okay, all that. Right, thank you. Mr. Greenfield. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Condition number one for the special use permit motion. Talks about the vehicle service. Shall we kept it tarnely in the service base at all times to limit any potential noise or spillover? Then you talk in your presentation about making sure that the doors are closed, but that's not clear in any of the conditions that we have here. Just seems to me if we don't spell that out, you will have somebody that will pull a car and leave the door open and do what they need to do to car alarm or stereo and test it and then back the car back out. So is that something you plan to clear up or something you want to counsel to clear up? That's actually something that is being proposed in alternate language that we worked out with the applicant. Okay, so the applicant's going to present that and the alternate. Okay, great. Thank you. Any other questions to staff? Ms. Lyon? I just wondered if you had looked at when the construction is going on. How many parking spots we might be losing? Do you have any idea during the construction? During construction we have not looked at that. Do you know how long the construction will take? You don't have any timelines on this at all. Thank you. Any other questions or staff? If not, thank you. No. You don't have any timelines on this at all. No. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions or staff? If not, thank you. We'll now invite the applicant to address the City Council. And if you would please give us your name and go to the board. What do you want up here? Good evening, Mr. Mayor and members of the City Council. I'm Ben Danforth. I'm the attorney on behalf of the applicant. I address is 6445 Wilson Boulevard, sweet 100 in Arlington. And I know you all are pretty familiar with this application. And I do have a slideshow that I'd like to go through. I think it'd be helpful for people who weren't present for the work session. If you don't mind, I'd like to sit down and go through it. Please. Thank you. Do you dance with that, too, Mr. Blumens? Was that a little filler there? All right. This you all are aware of. This is the best buy special permit and associated special exception application. Here is the mall, the property line is outlined in with the yellow lines here. As you all are familiar, the mall says at the gateway of the city, it's in a location that's ideal to the fact customers and to provide for the consumer needs of the city's residents. And this is a fact that recognized by the mall, excuse me, by the city's comprehensive plan, which describes the malls of major economic force in the city, and recommends that the city takes steps to recognize the revitalization of this area. And that's something that this application helps do by tracking a major anchor tenant into the mall. Here's the proposed Best Buy location. As Mr. Blodden said, it's taking the place of Ross as well as a B.J. pool and spa total square footage will be about 30,000 square feet. One of the results of that is that we're going to be able to bring in this anchor tenant. We're not going to have to increase the square footage of the mall. You're not going to be increasing in previous area in the city. We're using space that's already there. One thing that the addition of them all will deal is that it will enhance the retail mix at the mall that the addition of the store will. Right now you have multiple stores that sell clothing. You've got Ross, you have Marshalls, you have Dress Barn and there are no stores that focus on certain electronics. So you can increase the retail mix, provide some more variety, you can try customers and get them to go to multiple stores, get multiple needs, which are quick to be able to get multiple services at multiple stores. Another benefit of the stores that will significantly increase the tax revenue that will come to the city from the mall. One conservative estimate is that the revenue that will be generated by Best Buy will be three times as much as what's generated by Ross. And that doesn't include a trickle-down effect of increasing the rent at neighboring stores as well as perhaps increasing the property value of the mall as a whole. Since Best Buy is a retail use and existing uses are retail as well, the use tour will not require additional parking. And there's one of the things we talked about last time, is that the use of Best Buy and the parking lot area in front of the Best Buy will coincide fairly well with number of the other stores in the area. The slide here, the two blue stars, the one on top shows where first watch is located which is a diner that usually closes about 2.30 in the afternoon. So in the evening, that won't be using its faces. Then down below this, the second blue star is where there's an optometrist office and a dentist's office. And those stores usually open during normal business hours. They close about five or six. They've limited hours and Saturday and they're not open on Sunday. So it's going to be very rare that you have a positive parking in this part of the ball in this shared parking area. Another benefit is going to come from the addition of the stores that the parking lot is going to receive a facelift that includes restriping, repaving, new lights. And one thing that we discussed last time with the work session as well is trying to improve the vehicular circulation within the site. That's how many we've actually already done. This is a picture that shows the light at the intersection at 236 and that you can see right now both lanes indicate that you can go forward, go straight up to the light before the lane on the left indicated that you need to turn left and that'd be confusing for some people and you get stacking in the right lanes. We've already gone ahead and made that change. It was just done last week. In connection with the big box used, a number of connected modifications that the application, that the applicant is requesting, and taken together, these are essential components that the applicant feels are necessary to help the source of seed and to do well in the mall. The first of which is a front facade sign, which Mr. Bluffins talked about. The idea behind this, and there's been a number of conversations with staff, and we've gone back and forth with different designs, but it'd be able to capture the best by branding and the identity, but be able to fit it into the mall in a manner that is reminiscent of some of the other stores in the mall and facing with the mall's character. And one of the best ways to see this is to compare the proposed best-by design with the DSW design, which was constructed fairly recently. Actually the goal is down the road is to get a number of other areas within the mall to have the same brick facade and try to have this really be a common element throughout the mall. Now you can see here you look at the architecture. They both stores design and the names are framed by the Spritz facade, and you've got the same parapet walls and they're broken up in the sets of three, kind of three different areas, so it breaks up the bulk of the stores. Best Buy feels that proposed facade sign as well as the other modifications that are being requested are necessary to offset things like the mall's unique lot shape, the existing topography and existing vegetation, excuse me, the topography and existing vegetation. A couple of pictures for you. One is from 236 looking at where this will be located. You can see this topography here that comes into play as well as the existing vegetation. And the same thing when you look at the picture that's from taking in front of lifetime fitness. The proposed monument signs are designed to enhance the model's visibility and to overcome some of the existing vegetation that's on the site. The size of the signs is approximately 23 feet high and 14 feet wide. See here the proposed locations on 236. the plan is to put the sign in the the location of the existing sign and then on picket road there's going to be a slight difference where the new sign is going to go into where the one that existing is located is going to be just a different to the few feet. Here's a comparison between the existing signs and the proposed signs you can see here that the proposed sign is taller, narrower than the existing sign. It'll actually be less of an obstruction to your vehicular traffic, so it's not as wide. The total square footage for the two if you measure their width and their height is fairly similar. So a couple of pictures. On top, you see a picture looking north on picket. On the left is the proposed, on the right is existing. existing down below you see looking south on pick it left is proposed right is existing and this is on 236 on the left you see proposed and on the right you see existing the applicant has requested a rear sign in the back which would go along with the audio installation service phase the assignment will be told 18 square feet and it's designed to provide the sense of functionality so when people are going in the rear of the store and they're trying to access this two service space on their way to locate. They will know whether they're located. We've got a couple pictures that show the view from the Comstock neighborhood. You see on the left there's a yellow arrow that shows the direction from which this picture was taken on the right that shows you the view. You've got the fence from the neighboring community which blocks the view of the mall in the store. And then this is taken from the opposite direction from the mall towards Comstock. You see the fence, you also have an increasing rating of the retaining wall. So the town has a city of the higher grade than the mall does. The we've come up with some conditions to govern the use of the installation of the service phase. Taking into consideration the comments that came up last time, the work's going to be performed in two service phase. It's going to generate limited traffic and it's designed to operate to limit noise runoff. And I'd like to go through the proposed conditions for you. First, we propose to replace proposed conditions three and four with one condition. And that condition would read, car alarms shall only be installed and tested during best-by's normal business hours. In the service-based garage doors, shall be closed during the installation and testing of the car alarms. Best-by shall inform its employees of and shall provide signage in the service space that identifies these restrictions. And then we also propose to replace condition number five with a condition that says that the normal business hours for best buy shall be 10 o'clock a.m. to 10 o'clock p.m. Monday through Saturday and 10 o'clock a.m. to 8 o'clock PM on Sunday. Best Buy shall have the option to extend the store's operating hours during the holiday season, which is to find as the weekend before Thanksgiving through the weekend after January 1st and for up to 10 additional days per year. Furthermore, Best Buy may seek approval from the Zoning Administrator to extend the store's operating hours for additional days, shall be granted upon a determination by the zoning administrator that the request will not adversely affect the community due to excessive noise, excessive traffic, or similar factors. And I've got a written copy of staff that I'd like to take a look at it. question. Are you down with your presentation? No. No. Not. It's just like to give a little background on the idea behind these conditions. The goal is to provide some flexibility to best buy so it can change its story. I was going to holiday season and throughout the rest of the year if it feels like that's appropriate. And perhaps if a new game is coming out or a new game system is coming out and they want to open late, things like that, just give them some flexibility. We feel like it's a reasonable approach to the situation not to give it the best buy-absorbed discretion to extend its hours throughout the year, but to provide a reasonable means of flexibility. That concludes the application. Have any answer any questions? Okay, Ms. Lyme. Thank you, Ms. Mayor. I just want to go back to understand about the doors, the base. Excuse my voice here. With Mr. Greenfield asked before, I think was about number one and number three or four, the fourth one. When you talk about the doors, does that also include the installation of the stereo equipment and anything that you're going to install into the cars? I didn't hear that, and that I only heard it for the car alarms. I think right now it's only written to say car alarms, but I don't think we have an issue with limiting the use of the installation of the use of the areas as well. Thank you. I would like to just have those bay doors closed for any installation if we could have that put in there. The second question that I have, too, is when you're talking about those store hours, I notice that you change it from 9 to 10. And then you ask for 10 days additional. And then I guess I need to understand, are you asking us then to go for more days? Then that those 10 additional if something a new game comes out so it would be more than just those 10 days Additional 10 days after Thanksgiving in New Year's the ideas to have flexibility during the holiday season What have flexibility for 10 additional days at best by discretion? Okay. And then if best by wants to go above that 10 days, then best by would have to go to the zoning administrator and say we like to stay open for this day, for this purpose. And the zoning administrator can take a look at the records if there have been any noise complaints, things like that in determining whether or not that would be appropriate. Okay, understand. Okay, thank you for that clarification. Then I have another question. And it's kind of dear to my heart. I was out and about just a couple of weeks ago looking for, of course, like everyone else is a week, one of those wheezing, had to stay in line outside. And I've never done this before. I'm at 5 o'clock in the morning to go for a video game. So as I'm out there, there's lines of people coming up behind me. And before I know it, there's lines of people coming up behind me and before I know it, there's 35 or 40 people in sleeping bags along with myself and a chair, huddled in, trying to get this game. And my question is, is how do you manage that kind of crowd? Because I do have to say, by 8 o'clock in the morning, we looked like we were street people out there and I'm wondering if there's how you manage that crowd in How how do you do that? Do you come out and give out tickets today to clock and say okay? Everybody can go to the car and we've reserved your we or do you just make us all sit there till 9 30 and you have a huge Horde walking in I guess that that is one of my concerns about Some kind of operation if we can have some control on that. A lot of depends on what's being sold. Craig Weber is one of the architects from Best Buy. He's partying the best position. An answer to that question. Craig Weber, Best Buy, Richfield, Minnesota. To answer your question, Best Buy is in the last couple of years is start at the handout tickets because like you could see when you were there, it gets to be a big line and it's really popular now and we don't probably have enough for everybody in line so it's a way to control the crowds and then once people get a ticket then you know, I'm sure the people that didn't get a ticket are gonna be leaving so And I'm sure the people that didn't get a ticket are going to be leaving. So that's one way we've controlled the crowds from getting really out of hand. All right. Thank you for that. I was just curious to find out how you guys did it because I happened to have been at a different store. Since you weren't in the city of Fairfax yet. All right, Mr. Mayor, that really concludes my questions. Thank you. Any other questions of the applicant, Miss Cross? Thank you. Any other questions, the applicant, Miss Cross? Thank you. Yeah, I have a couple of things. When Best Buy comes to Fair City Mall, will they be the largest tenant in your complex? I think the largest tenant is lifetime fitness. So what's... Okay. The shopper is the largest. And then lifetime is number two. The second largest. Okay. What I'm getting at here is the blue slash and the fact that every other... The blue wing, along with the yellow tag sign measures 247 square feet. That's a lot. And it isn't even your biggest tenant. And your biggest tenant, I would definition, only uses 195 feet for signage. I would suggest to you that we'd be just, or I would be just fine with your yellow tag because I really think that that's your brand and your trademark. But the blue slash on the building I think is is unnecessary and Really really not very attractive and or nor additive to the to the shopping center That's what Take on that I had a question on And this is for Mr. Hudson. I don't remember another time that a business has had to have their hours okayed through the zoning administrator. Is this the first time for that or why? It is. The applicant asked for more flexibility in terms of the operating hours. They understood that they're given the proximity to residential areas that we had requested that there be some limitation with the hours, but they did want more flexibility. And to get more flexibility, one of two things could happen. One is the city council could just grant additional periods of time in which the extended hours could be had this evening, just say, okay, well, you know, instead of an additional 10 times a year, you can do an additional 16 times a year. And that would be fine. The second alternative, and this is the alternative that we kicked around with the applicant was that there will be a record at some point of how, if there are any negative impacts or substantial negative impacts to staying up late or staying open later, I'm sorry. And that based on the record, then they could ask the zoning administrator for these additional hand full of times a year. And we would have the opportunity to do it, we meaning the zoning administrator would have the opportunity to approve those based on the record. If there were any problems created by these later hours, then we could deny it. And the council wouldn't be obligated to those extra times basically. I just don't want to set a precedent here where we need to run operating hours through your department on a regular basis. It's completely valid. It was a safeguard. All right. It was a safeguard. All right, Mr. Cross, could I just follow up to that before? The, I'm a member of Lifetime Fitness and I go in there and I don't know the exact numbers I'll admit that I don't go in there as much as I should go in there, but when I used to go in there, thanks Mr. Greenfield. They're open much longer hours than this facility is with a lot of traffic. I guess my question would be why would we want to, if that's what it took for the business to be successful, why would we want to eliminate when we don't to shoppers if they want to open up longer? We don't to lifetime which hours are longer. I'm just trying to understand. Right. The rationale. First of all, I can tell you've been working on Mr. Mayor. Thank you. That was actually the right answer, by the way. I see. You will see if you're boned. My bones. Now really the only reason is that this is the first special exception that has been necessary for a piece of property, for a property, a big box store that's immediately adjacent to residential and erred on the side of caution. I mean I can understand the other side of this. Maybe it's an abundance of caution. Okay, that's fair. Miss Cross, were you? I did have one other thing. On the monument signs, which by the way, I also think are way too big. But I can live with those provided that we're not going to lose any trees or vegetation that certainly, as I recall, there isn't anything in the corner along 236, and I don't believe along Pick a Road. I don't think any trees are any other very things. Are you going to landscape around the basis of those without obstructing the signs that they're going to put in within the sign. It didn't monument. The plan is to have a planning bed around the base. It kind of spread up from the base of the monument signs. And you're not going to take any trees to put up here. Monument sign on 236 will go back in the same location of the existing sign. And then on ticket road, it's going to be moved in, eight to 10 feet, but 10 feet. But it's not a location. It's going to require taking down any trees or affecting any of the trees there. Okay. All right. The issue that remains is, for me, is the blue wing, The issue that remains is for me is the blue wing, which I really object to, is just either attractive nor additive, I think, to the mall. Thank you. Mr. Greenfield. I think, Mr. Mayor, you mentioned in your comments, Mr. Danforth, that you plan to re-stripe the entire shopping center? I believe that's the plan, yes. Do you have a plan to make the spaces smaller or you're going to leave everything as it is so that you're not going to increase the number of spaces by decreasing the size? The plan is to keep the width and the dimensions the same, the depth of the parking spaces. Right. The same number. Mr. Mayor. I'm a slime. Okay, to add to that, that was one of my questions, Mr. Greenfield. Are you going to change any of the lighting in that? And when you restripe it also any of the lighting in the parking lot, I don't think that was that. I mean, I don't remember hearing anything. But the plan is to do lighting improvements to replace the plan has to do lighting improvements. Okay. Thank you. Any misses cross? I did have one more note here to ask you about. How do you propose to light the monument signs? Will they be lit? I guess they'll be lit. It's in the same manner that they're lit right now. Internally or lit? Internally. I believe it's internally. I mean, double check. Yes. Internally. Internally or literally I believe internally double check Yes internally Everybody agree so that must spend the right answer yeah Bobblehead's I didn't say that she did It was funny though because all of you did that together. Thank you. I'm going to lay it at. Yeah, quite well I had. Okay. I would hope that the city's guiding sign, the elimination of those signs is considered so that we don't have beacons of light, exuding from these monuments. Thank you. Any other questions on the alphabet? If not, thank you very much. This is a public hearing. We'll now open up the public hearing, invite anybody in the audience who'd like to address the council on the site. And first to sign up is Adele Stena. Welcome. My name is Dale Estina. I reside at 10025. Bluecoat Drive here in the city. I'm here this evening representing the economic development authority. Representatives of Best Buy testified at our November 28th economic development authority meeting regarding their proposed lease at Ferris City Mall. From their testimony, the commissioners are gleaned the following. A benefit associated with Best Buy operating in Ferris City Mall will be the, well, will attribute to the city a considerable additional revenue. And best by currently estimates that it will triple the current tenantsets income. Now a quick and dirty analysis indicates that that will increase revenues to the city $280,000 annually. That translates into a half a penny on our present rate in our estimation. And that's from this one business. Plus a quality tenants like Best Buy increases the our percentage of attracting other retails, operations that would be desirous to locate here in the city. So the economic development commissioners unanimously support best buys proposal to locate in fair city mall. I thank you. Thank you. Nobody else to sign up when anybody likes to dress the city council on this item. Mr. Ar'Dell. Gerry O'Dell 3920, Pabwater Sheet. Why are a vest buy and an auto repair facility being submitted in the same application? Seems like those are two very disparate uses, even though the locations may be separate slightly. But I should think you would strongly want to say you know and ask them to come back with two separate applications. The you may recall what was done to Ferris City Mall when DSW shoes went in. The mall was disrupted, became a dangerous place with construction going on and the possibility of being hit by debris, the fumes, the dust and the disruption to businesses. Since this is being called the big box store also that rang up, conjured up the past memories that I found most on pleasant, not to mention most on just the existing tenants there, including to this day, Mama Pizza or whatever it's called, which is now isolated geographically from the rest of the mole, not a fair outcome to them. They shared with me the economic hurt that that did. The, I agree with Mrs. Cross's observations about the blue logo, not doing much for anybody. It's not really being that recognizable, certainly not to me. Whereas the best buy tag is certainly recognizable and should be permitted. Now, you've had this issue of signs on both sides of buildings before. Ruby Tuesdays is it that the intersection of what is now called Fairfax Boulevard and the extension of Picket Road. If you're not going to give Ruby Tuesday permission to have signs on two sides, why would you want to do that here and have disparate treatment? Particularly since the back side isn't even used or approached by or seen by customers, only delivery vehicles. They will get used to knowing how far to drive to get to the right door to unload their merchandise. It would only take a small 12 inch sign on the This 10 a.m. to 9 p.m. time frame. 10 a.m. to 9 p.m. is probably ideal for a best buy. And that's what I think they have at their existing locations most of the year. But if those of the hours proposed for an auto repair facility, I find that little absurd. Most auto mobiles are, or many of them are dropped off by commuters on a way to work. Most people start their jobs much earlier than 10 AM. I would want to leave their vehicles at the facility before 10 AM. Requiring those who want their cars to be repaired to sit in them until it's their turn to enter the building, the repair facility, the stalls, the bays is absurd and unreasonable and it's unjust because it's discriminatory. No such condition is imposed now on another auto facility in the same mall, virtually the same mall, we're talking about Good Year, Hoverns Good Year, which is in Turnpike mall, which is, you know, embedded within Fair City Mall and often confused by people and perceived as being part of Fair City Mall. So you just can't do that. Not an unexpected have anyone believe that you've been fair or consistent. There's going to be I'm sure a hole in the doors of these bays through which holes can be placed to vent exhaust fumes. I hope and assume that the fumes will be vented into the alleyway and not the walkway on the front side of this store's neighboring so that people entering the shops or stores don't have to inhale those fumes. The, the there's plenty of parking on that end of the mall so that won't be a problem. This facelift of the parking lot, let's strike me a greater odd. Mr. O'Dell, if you'd wrap up your comments, I'd appreciate it. Oh, I'm over time. I just want to say the facelift should be something the mall should be commanded to do. Not as a condition for granting these requests. It's really smells that they would do that. Say that. Anybody else in the audience like to address the City Council on this item? Smell it. Good evening Mr. Mayor and members of City Council. I'd like to speak on behalf of the application as a shopper. It will be very convenient to have a best buy in the city the same way that the DSW shoe is in a real convenience. And I would, I trust that the mayor of the City Council, the City staff and the applicant will work out any details as far as signage and any issues that might come up. Also, I'd like to say is that when we're adding a big box, could we get a target next? Because that's also one of my favorite stores. But I would hope that the City Council- We take a note back. Oh, okay. I would hope that the City Council would approve this application. I think it's a real convenience to the people that live in this community and it will certainly improve the overall appearance of the shopping center. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Moore. Anybody else like to address the City Council? Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'm Harry Wilbur, 10229 Aspen Willow Drive Fairfax. I just would like to say, speaking as an individual from the City of Fairfax Commission on the Arts, I agree with Ms. Kross that I think the blue swash, as well as the size of the two signs, are not complementary to the area. We'll do nothing, but I think, interfere, interfere I think with the look of the place and I think would be improved if those were removed. Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else like to address the City Council on this item? Let me if I can before we close the public hearing and invite the applicant and you have any closing comments or remarks. I have answers to a few questions to come up. One was a question about construction. The timing on this is looking at delivery in the middle of 2009. Ross's lease runs until the end of 2008. And then construction will probably take about three or four months. So we can deliver mid 2009. The property owner will work with the city on constructing and trying to preserve as much parking as possible. Right now, they're actually extra parking spaces at the mall. So we'll try to keep the ratio where not getting below, which is required by zoning, and they'll be worked out throughout the process. And the other question that's come up is a question about the signage, and you suggested that perhaps the best way to determine, you should get the biggest sign, is based on what the largest story is per square footage. I suggest that the best way to look at it is to look at which story is most profitable on a square foot basis and that's projected to be best by, best by asking me the major anchor tenant in the mall and it's probably free to have the largest sign. And you look at the layout of the mall, it's going to be set back from 236 and from picket. So it's necessary to have adequate signage. This isn't something where it's going to be 25 feet from the street. It's going to be hovering over people's they go by. It's going to be set back. It's not going to be as imposing as you enter into the mall. And finally, if you look at this application, it's a number of different pieces that taken as a whole best-by-fields. It's sufficient to make this a successful store and you may not be enamored with the different pieces of it. You may wish one sign was a little bit smaller, maybe wish some of the pieces were a little bit different. But taking as a whole, it's a very reasonable proposal. It's something that best-by-fields is adequate to meet its needs and in light of all the benefits that are going to approve the county and particularly the tax benefits, it feels reasonable to have this the whole package approved as it is. That ends my comment. Any questions? Yeah, this winner. Thank you. I have one question on lighting in the parking lots. That was going to be that is going to be replaced as well. Okay. With all of the our former, former meetings where we were talking about lighting for ball fields and the idea of light spillage just to make sure that it will be state of the art where the light will be coming down and not up into the atmosphere because I'm sure I'm assuming that the lighting that's there now is probably as old as them all. And it spills high into there. So thank you and I appreciate the new lighting. And I tend to agree with the signage as you have it. The idea of you want to draw in, you want hooks. Like I said last minute, you want hooks to pull people in. And I think if there is a huge, if the signs were different sizes within what you're proposing, there would be a chance of maybe a store or two missing out, a fitting on that sign, signage. And how you have it now, these are major hooks. And that each one is about the same size. What you're doing, what the consumers looking for is logos. They're not looking for how big a sign is. So I think that you're having, that you're fitting more merchants on this sign is good. Thank you. Any other questions at the out? Very none. Thank you very much. Well now close the public hearing and I'll place it in the hands of the council. Like the entertainment motion is possible. This way. This way. Oh, this Oh, Mr. Lion. Okay. What first we'll do is the special use permit motion. Okay. It's an exception, special use. Mr. Winner, I think Mr. Lion's going to introduce the motion. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move that the City Council approve the request of Fair City HHH by Fred Cornett, Jr. Senior Vice President and Fair City Incorporated for a special use permit to allow big box retail development in the C2 retail commercial zoning district and for the approval of minor auto repair consisting of car auto and alarm installations on the premises known as 96, 100-9688 Main Street Fair City Mall. And more particularly described is TaxMap R-Sull 58-3-02023A Subtitifaland Conditions. The vehicle sure, well, the following conditions outlined by. You'll meet the. We're going to need to get the conditions. And I need do we have that list of the additions? Somebody have that we can pass up to the dice. Mr. Hudson you have written out or? I don't need both of them. Want to go ahead and read what is in the staff report and then if somebody could slip it up we'll add it to it. Okay. The vehicle, well, Mr. Okay. Vehicle service shall be kept in turn in the service base at all times to limit any potential noise spillover, which includes closing all the bay doors. The applicant shall provide a rear sign, non-illiminated at no more than 18 square feet to direct customers. Number three, prior to an insurance of any permit for construction or use of the best buy store, the applicant shall demonstrate to the satisfaction of the zoning administrative that the car alarms tested from the inside the serviceable comply with noise standards of the city code, including keeping the bid doors closed. No alarm will be installed or tested after 8 p.m. The hours of operation for best buy shall be limited from 10 to 10 Monday through Saturday and from 10 to 8 on Sunday. And I think there's more to come. More to come. Okay. Number six should best by C's operation at 808 square foot blue wedge shall be removed within 90 days and a special exception of the additional shine shall be void. The building facade shall be in substantial conformance with the drawings repaired by a key vault. Quarchering, associates fill with his applications. Sorry, I blew that. Okay, let's, before we get a second, let's see if we can get the additional verbiage if somebody has it. Okay, Mr. Mayor. I would like to restate condition three. Car alarm shell, shell, and audio equipment. Shell only be installed in tests during best by normal hours. And the service they garage door shall be closed during the installation and testing the car alarms and audio equipment. Best by shell, informants, employees of all of and shall provide signage in the service space that identifies these restrictions. And then Mr. Mayor, I'd like to, that should take care of three and four and really one. The other is five, I'd like to restate five. The normal business hours for Best Buy shall be 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. Monday through Saturday and 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. on Sunday. Best Buy shall have the option to extend the store's operating hours during the holiday season. Weekend before Thanksgiving through the weekend after January 1st and for up to 10 additional days per year. Furthermore, best by may seek approval from the Zoning Administration to extend these store operating hours for additional days, which will be granted upon a determination by the Zoning Administrator that no request will be well not adversely affect the community due to excess noise, excess traffic, excessive traffic or similar factors. Okay, it's moved by Mrs. Lyon, seconded by Mr. Southerner, any discussion? Mr. Mayor? I'd like to comment on this right away. I am pleased to see best by coming into the city of Fairfax. I think it's going to be a great addition to our little city. And I think everyone for working closely together on this building and making the changes and cordially disagree with my colleague Mrs. Cross on the changes with this sign. I know that it could have been larger and I do love what the building will look like. I like what the building will look like right now. So I welcome you all to the city and I look forward to shopping and buying all my latest equipment there. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Suther. Mr. Mayor, thank you. I spoke to this several weeks ago during our work session and I'm delighted to speak again in favor of this motion. You know, and I say respectfully to my dear friend, Mr. Wolbert, as I've learned over the years in this job, it's very difficult to legislate taste. And my taste, I'm not a big fan of the sign either, but frankly, when I take a look holistically at this project, I look at this mall that frankly, wasn't too long ago, I would consider it to be a dead mall. It was in the doldrums. It has seen some resurgence over the last five, ten, fifteen years, but not much. And frankly, when I think of an anchor like Best Buy, that's willing to come into the City of Fairfax and help revitalize, just as we've seen with DSW, and of course Lifetime, which was a few years ago, I really think that this is moving us in the right direction as a city and as a neighborhood, generally speaking, in that corner of the community. I'll also say, though, in terms of signage, that's something that's been raised several times here. You know, I look at lifetime. And I think I'm right in saying this. I think lifetime has multiple signs as well on the facade from different angles. And this is actually only in the front and, of course, in the back, but the back is not going to be seen by wide swath of people. So I look at this is actually less signage than you've seen currently at lifetime. Now we can all agree or disagree in terms of taste and whether or not it's our style. But in general you're looking at one sign in the front yes it's big and then you're looking at the monument signs which we'll get to next but I may as well just go ahead and speak to it now Mr. Mayor. It's actually less signage overall than these God-awful ugly signs that we see there currently. Whether it's backlit or frontlit, whatever you want to call it, it's still an improvement. And I think that's the direction that I've actually encouraged my council colleagues over the last few years to think of this as what we currently have today versus what we're going to see when this project is completed. And this is going to be a class A project when it's done and I'm happy to support it. Thank you. Other comments by Council? If not, we'll call the motion. All in favor of the motion signify by voting aye. Aye. Opposed. And a passing an annum received. We'll now go to the special exception for the building sign. Mr. Mayor. Mrs. Leyer. I move that the City Council adopt the attached resolution to approve the request of Fair City HHH by Fred Cornett Jr. Senior Vice President of Fair City and Corporate for a special exception. 110-185 to allow and 888 square foot sign, or 150 square foot sign is permitted at the front. And an 18 square foot sign, where one square foot sign is permitted on the rear facade of the proposed best buy store on the premises known as 9,698 Main Street, Fierce City Mall, and more particular scribe, is tax map parcels 58-302-23a. Second. Move by Mrs. Lyon, seconded by Mr. Silverthorn. Any discussion? Mr. Mayor, thank you. I just will echo a little of what Mr. Silverthorn said. I, as I said earlier, look forward to having best by here. I believe that you do need to have signage to show who you are. And I believe this is, I think we've worked very hard together. I think the staff has and I think we should all vote unanimously on this, on the signage. Thank you. Other discussion? Miss Cross. I say again that the blue wing is excessive. It's unattractive and it is not the least very additive to what is becoming a better and better looking mall. So I will be voting no. Any other discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by voting aye. Aye. Opposed? And a pass by a vote of four to two with Mr. Rasmussen not present and the one. Excuse me four to one and Mrs. Cross voting no. I think one more. Mrs. Winter voting no. I think one more. Mrs. Winter. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move that the City Council adopt the attached resolution to approve the request of Fair City HHH by Fred Cornett Jr. Senior Vice President of Fair City Inc. For a special exception pursuant to City Code sections 110-185 to allow two monument signs, each 334 square feet in size with 160.5 square feet in sign area, where a single sign of 50 square feet is permitted by right, and each containing multiple tenants signage on the premises known as 9,600 through 9688 Main Street, Fair City Mall, and more particularly described as tax map parcels, 58-3-202, and a print-023A. Second. Moved by Mr. Winter, seconded by Mrs. Line, any discussion? All in favor of the motion is signified by voting aye. Aye. Opposed? And it passed unanimously. Let me just take a second. It's somewhat unusual that we have not just the tenant that's involved in their leadership, but we also have the owner of the mall who's here and also certainly their upper management. And you know, I think this is a very interesting dialogue and an interesting case history for us to follow as we continue to revitalize the Lee Highway quarter in the city of Fairfax. You know, economic development not only means trying to convince a major tenant to come into the city of Fairfax, but it also means that you have to work with them and you have to be serious about trying to find that, that win-win scenario. I can tell you, I had, I guess I'll say the privilege of a while limited discussion during this process, very selected discussion and very select times with both the ownership of them all and the upper leadership within Best Buy Corporation and discussions with staff when this project was virtually dead in the water because there was a balance between what Best Buy thought was important in their branding of their store, which is the big blue sign, and staff trying to do the due diligence from the city side and protect both this community and the city. And the one thing I asked both of them to do because I felt very strongly that we were all very committed I'll just say it again, I said it last week, I complimented certainly our staff, Mr. Siss and it at all levels and their willingness and their flexibility. And I know meeting at different aspects of the city, I know that we were all very committed to getting a store of best buy was to sit down and see where that absolute limit was from what the staff was willing to accept and what the tenant was willing to do. I'll just say it again, I said it last week, I complimented certainly our staff, Mr. Siss and it at all levels and their willingness and their flexibility. And I know meeting it different hours and different times to work through, certainly to the management and to best buy. I think we all would agree it's going to be a wonderful addition to the City of Fairfax. It's a great example of economic development and how it should work as we go forward. And I have a feeling just unlimited dialogue and discussion with the ownership and the management that these, this is just a, the beginning of wonderful things that are about to happen in that mall. And we certainly appreciate your leadership and your investment in the future of this community. So, with that, congratulations. We look forward to a ribbon cutting in the near future and congratulations. Thank you. a ribbon cutting in the near future and congratulations. So with that we will now move on to agenda item number eight, which are items not requiring a public hearing. 8A is consideration of approval of a donation agreement between the city and Geraldine Sherwood regarding the donation of funds the city to be used for the construction and operation of the new community center. And I want to just turn this over going to turn this over to staff, but I want to just preface this. I know there's been a lot of dialogue and discussion. There's been a few newspaper articles certainly leading up to this. It's very rare that a community of our size gets a family who just decides they want to invest in the future of the city through a wonderful donation. As a result of that, though, this was all sort of new territory, both for the staff and for our legal team and certainly for the council. And we spent a couple of months quite frankly in closed meetings and discussions to make sure that the expectations of the family could meet the expectations of the community and the city as it unfolds. We're now at a part and just as I read that agenda item, it's kind of fun to be able to read the name of the family that's involved and talk openly about this opportunity that's been presented to the City of Fairfax. Having said that, I want to assure the community that every step the council has been very conscientious about the need for opening up the process, involving the community, involving our friends with the Park and Recreation of Advisory Board who have been so wonderful in providing leadership of this nature. And we're at that point tonight. So I appreciate the patience of the community wondering what was going on and where we are tonight. Not only are we gonna be hopefully talking about and approving an agreement that will sort of frame the issue, all that does is start the process. It does not finish the process. We'll now look forward to the opportunity both through our work session in a few minutes of engaging the community, engaging our boards and commissions and engaging, interested surrounding communities, talking about location, talking about size, and determining whether or not the gift is in fact the right opportunity for the city of Fairfax. And so I just want to frame in that regard we understand the need for community input on that. I think we're all anxious now to get to this point where we can certainly engage the community as we go forward on this wonderful opportunity. With that, Mr. Assistant, I'll turn left and right. Thank you. Mayor Members of Council, as you correctly noted, this is one of those rare occasions in the history of a municipality like the city where we just have an excellent presentation to make. If you all are well aware, the family of Geraldine Sherwood, whose longtime city resident of Widow, a former both city council member and town council member, Stacey Sherwood, have committed to donate under certain conditions of some of $5 million to the city. These funds are to be utilized for the construction, and if there's any funds left over for the operation of a To Be Built Community Center. We've been working as the mayor noted with the family and the representatives who have just been wonderful to work with over the past few months on coming up with the terms of a donation agreement. And as the mayor correctly noted, this is not something you just sort of pull off the shelf. It's not these sized donations aren't made very frequently. And I think we've worked through an agreement that is very fair to wishes of the family and also provides the city with the flexibility that it will need on a going forward basis in terms of considering both the size and the programming and other factors related to the decision of whether or not to construct the community center. Rather than go through every detail of the donation agreement, the document is a public document. I'll just hit some of the highlights. Again, it's important to note that the entirety of the $5 million will be donated up front. This is not a phased donation. The condition is that the $5 million will be donated to the city, it will be held in escrow. And it will be dispersed pursuant to certain benchmarks that are set forth in the donation agreement. And they relate principally to the decision whether to proceed with a community center and certain construction benchmarks. The city will receive a million dollars on the execution of a contract for the design and engineering of the project. Once the construction contract is let, the city will receive the next $2 million and then the final $2 million will be given to the city upon substantial completion. The city will also be the beneficiary of any interest that accrues on this $5 million during the time the money is held and that could be another significant source of money. The conditions that the family has imposed on the donation are frankly quite reasonable. They are requesting the ability to name the facility. They are requesting that certain space be set aside for rehearsal and performance of music, singing, and drama activities. And that community center be located in or adjacent to Van Dyck Park. All of these are set forth in the agreement. There's also a provision that if the city were to decide not to proceed with the community center or not to complete construction of the community center, that the city would return the entirety of the donation. Actually, I'm sorry, it wouldn't be returned to the family. The donation would then be made to a new charity of the choosing of the family. And lastly, just to reiterate what the mayor said, the approval of this donation agreement isn't the approval of a community center. It's just the mechanism under which the city would be able to accept this $5 million donation. Everything else in terms of decision-weathered, proceed, programming, size, etc. Obviously will be the subject of, including the appropriation of this $5 million if it gets to that point will be the subject of future actions before council. So with that, be happy to answer any questions. I don't believe there are any members of the family here this evening. But be happy to answer any questions. I also like to say Mr. McCarty and Mr. Cicin have worked diligently through this process with the family and with us to get this to the point we are today. Hearing none, I will entertain a motion Mr. Grinfield. Oh, sorry questions. It's not a question, but I just wanted to clarify and make note of fact that the holding company or the cross company is providing service on this donation at no cost to the city. Yes, and I should have pointed that out. The Eskree agent in this matter, Stuart title in escrow, a city business has agreed to donate its services for this purpose. It's not huge escrow fees, but obviously every little bit helps. Exactly. Entertain emotion now, Mr. Greenfield. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'm moved to approve the donation agreement between the city of Fairfax and Geraldine Sherwood and a form substantially similar to the draft attached to the staff report. I further move that the City Manager be authorized to execute the final donation agreement on behalf of the City with such changes as may be approved by the City Attorney. Second. Move by Mr. Greenfield, seconded by Mrs. Winner, any discussion? Mr. Greenfield? Thank you, Mr. Ryan. Just echo your comments that you started out with this evening. This is an exciting opportunity. We have been talking about the need for a permit community center probably since the late 90s. We had a temporary community center in John C. Wood for the last 25 years and that recently was torn down to make way for the police station. So it is my hope that as we move forward as a community both in working with the Parks and Recreation Advisory Board, the neighboring communities and the cities the whole that we can move quickly to establish a permanent community center along the old way. We have a way to order. Thank you. Any other comments? Mr. Wair? Mr. Wair, thank you. I too would like to echo Mr. Greenfield's remarks that this is the idea of a community center as long in coming. And there are so many, we've been in temporary and now we're over it at Green Acres. And for the history of the city, we have been in substandard buildings and this will be something that will add to this great improvement that we've been, this wave that we're on, that the city's been on and bringing the infrastructure up to state of the art. And so I'm very excited as this goes forward and I will appreciate citizens and commissions coming forward with their recommendations on how this can be the the a premier facility in this area. Thank you Any other discussion Mrs. Cross. Thank you This is a remarkable thing for the city and a remarkable thing for the Sherwood family to do. I think it's significant that we are here for our last meeting of the year. We're here for our meeting in the season of giving and how very appropriate that we approve this donation agreement at this particular meeting. I just wish to personally thank the family for their generosity and their foresight in making something possible, perhaps, that had only been a dream a very short time ago. So thank you. Mr. Mayor. Yes, I also have thank you to the Sherwood family. This is very generous and unselfish. Thank you. Any other comments? Hearing none, all in favor of the motion, please signify by voting aye. Aye. Opposed and it passed unanimously. We're now down to agenda number 9, which are presentations by the public. On any item that is not on tonight's agenda that is of interest to the community. And nobody has previously signed up with anybody like to address the city council on this. Mr. Odo. Good day. is the title of a book that makes the case very cogently that among other things. The Democratic, the Democrat party, has since about 1980 or 82 included a plank in its platform, national platform, supporting abortion. And since about 1992, the similar plank in favor of homosexuality. The Republican platform during the same time period then before has never included any of those two provisions either of those two. Though there have been some renegades, so-called moderates who have rattled their own cages in an effort to include such things. Those people, of course, are nothing more than wolves and sheep's clothing, or I should say, Democrats calling themselves republicans. The anyone who's somewhat literate can read, well, Mr. Silverthorn can't, but some of you others can't either, but anyone who's literate can read documents such as the US Constitution Fifth Amendment. No one shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process, or the Declaration of Independence, which speaks of our unalienable or in today's English inalienable right, the life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. A lot of people have been upset with the Iraq war. It has been dramatically registered in the last two elections, even our state elections, where Republicans have been mercilessly swept out of office in favor of wolves and sheep scrolling. It was unfortunate because state policies, in the case of the Virginia election, have little impact on national policies. Some people act a little rational when they vote, unfortunately. You can go to sites like cc.org. Don't go to Christian Coalition.org. That's a counterfeit site. Or cc.org, which is a true Christian Coalition site. And you can see about the voting records of people, especially incumbents. And the New York Times of all things, I've just noticed today in an email sent to me just this morning. The New York Times has an excellent link on its homepage to presidential candidates in the upcoming election next November. Where they stand on Roller versus Wade and the ban on partial birth abortion and on in most cases their position on the appointment of judges to the US Supreme Court. Only Republicans are promising to give you strict constructionists who know how to read those documents that Mr. Silverthorn and others don, that I just cited with the amendment. I take the fifth, if you're going to choose me a falsely accused of you, or at least I cite the fifth. And the Declaration of Independence. So for your own sake, for little sanity, be careful about voting for Democrats. Unless, of course, you can find those rare birds who actually are Democrats and pro-life the it's unfortunate that Super Tuesday will be held before our own primary It's going to be I believe February 12th nice day Washington's birthday but super Tuesday and of course Iowa and the Hampshire will have long since exited their influence. But maybe someday we can have a primary everywhere at the same time. Thank you Mr. Rizal. Would anybody else like to address? Council and any item not on tonight's agenda. Hearing none, that will now move down to agenda item number 10 which is the approval of the November 27th 2007 regular meeting moved by Mr. Greenfield seconded by Mr. Silverthorn in any discussion. All in favor of the motion signify by voting aye. Aye. Opposed and passed unanimously. We're now going to recess our regular meeting and go into our work session. We're going to stay here in this room. The first work session item is a discussion, the request by the City School Board for electronic message board at Fairfax High School. Thank you, Mayor Letterman. Good evening to the members of the City Council. This item this evening is really an introductory item to advise the Council of the Request by the City of Fairfax School Board for zoning text amendment to allow an electronic display message board for Fairfax High School. This would replace the existing changeable copy sign that's located along Odeley Highway with an electronic display message board, typically called an LED message board, that would advise the school community and the community at large of the high schools activities and events. Of course, any change to the zoning text amendment is probably going to apply to all of the schools in the City of Fairfax, given that we currently permit all of the schools with a special use permit approval, either by the City Council or the Board of Zoning Appeals, depending on the zoning district the school is located in. So staff is requesting this evening, just general guidance and a direction from City Council to begin the process for the Zoning Text Amendment. And as you know, that process requires the City Council to initiate and refer the item to the Planning Commission for further study and review, more than likely that will involve a work session and then public hearing with the Planning Commission who will then forward a recommendation to the City Council for consideration. There are a few issues that I think the Council should, would hopefully give staff some direction on if not at this time and certainly as we begin the work to prepare this item. One is that this will require change to the zoning ordinance stipulations for lightest signs and residential zoning districts. Currently, the city schools are permitted in residential zoning districts and we do have restrictions against lit signage in those zoning districts. Allowing the school, now currently the school sign on Oli Highway is externally illuminated. There's a sign, a light that shines up on the sign. The request for the LED readout course, creates an internally illuminated sign. So we are looking at a change in the lighting restrictions and residential districts for signs. The second point of clarification would be on whether we would like these signs to be internally illuminated generally, or would like to stick with the current regulation for external illumination. And this is really a clarification because the code now speaks to a restriction against illuminated signage. But as I said, the sign that's currently on only highway does have some illumination. So there needs to be a clarification in the code as to whether external or internal illumination is appropriate. The third issue to consider is how the message board will actually read, and there's current restrictions in the code to moving signs, flashing signs, anything that would unduly attract the attention of a passerby, particularly a driver. The question is that the LED sign, of course, the benefit of it is that it is changeable copy, but is that to be allowed on a very intermittent basis or are we just allowing it for a change in the message itself? In other words, it wouldn't scroll, it wouldn't flash, it wouldn't blink, but it would give the school the ability to modify the message, depending on the event that they'd like to advertise to the public. And then finally the question is whether or not there would be a need or a desire by the City Council to expand this to include any resident, sorry, any commercial signage. As I've surveyed other jurisdictions just very cursory, it is clear that some service stations are allowed to have LED read outsigns in order to change their price for gasoline advertising. So there are some commercial applications that the council may wish for us to consider as we contemplate this type of signage in the city. And as I said, the process now for schools to allow schools in the city of Fairfax is with special use permit approval. At this time, staff believes it would be appropriate to include a specific type of signage as part of the special use permit for the school. The existing schools could then come back and amend their current use permits to include the additional regulations for the LED changeable copy signs if that's a direction that council would like to go in. So those are just to highlight some of the issues that I think we will have to resolve prior to taking action on this. And the staff is, again, making a recommendation this evening for the City Council to just initiate this item. There isn't attached resolution. This can either be done through the rest of the proceedings this evening or placed on the consent agenda for your January 8th meeting, but the resolution and motions are currently attached. And we also have representatives from the school board and the smellers here who I believe would like to have a moment of your time just to further explain their proposal. Okay. Yeah. What? Let's hold questions if we can and go ahead, Mrs. Miller. Let's go ahead and hear the whole presentation and then we'll. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I just wanted to back up a little bit and give the mayor and city council some a refresher course on sort of how this happened. Also with me this evening before I get started, it's Superintendent Mondays in the audience as well as Scott Grayburn, Dr. Scott Grayburn, Principal of Fairfax High School and Rod Spelman, whose Director of Community Activities. And asked its permission or its concurrence on an electronic sign to replace the existing sign that revel run an Oli Highway. We soon came to find out that the ordinance did not permit electronic signs or signs that had, I believe, as Mrs. Coleman calls them, exposed bulbs bulbs and certainly an electronic sign does have that. Following that information, I did take the opportunity to meet with each of you to brief you on the presentation that is included tonight in your package. The school board is interested in a sign that is more in keeping with existing signage in other jurisdictions, signage that is used by other public schools and is used throughout the metropolitan area. We are supportive of the request of Dr. Brabrand for an electronic sign. I would also like to bring to your attention that it is not necessary that the sign be placed on rebel and only highway. There's the possibility that it could go at rebel and Fairfax Boulevard. That, of course, one location has, each location has positives and each location has negatives. But if there are issues with replacing the sign and putting an electronic sign at Rebel and only highway, there is luckily an additional opportunity for signage at Rebel and Fairfax Boulevard. If you would like to hear the presentation, Dr. Brabrand or Mr. Spellin is available to do that before we go into questions. Just a quick fill. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Actually, questions of staff. No problem. No problem. I may have a follow-up question to you. Okay, no problem, Mr. Rebell. On an only highway, for example, we have three schools right now that if we make this change would be eligible for this type of signage. Do you know how many other private school I think I'd pick it road? Do you know how many other locations we could potentially have this type of sign? That would be permitted to have signage. Well all the schools, if we were to approve this, would be eligible then because the city doesn't distinguish as in some jurisdictions, our approval process for public versus private schools. For instance, Fairfax County allows public schools as a public use, fire, right, and virtually all of their zoning districts, but they regulate their private schools by special use permit. However, in the city, we regulate public and private schools the same. So at this time, there's no distinction in all schools would be eligible for this type of sign. But do we know how many? In terms of the private schools I'd say there are a hand three, the new school, public six, St. Leo's that currently have signs that I'm aware of, and then they're the public schools. E-cills. I'm forward about the one over in the last year. 10. There's a couple others that we've been doing in the last four or whatever they might and the main street. I don't know what the general would call. Mrs. Miller, do you anticipate that you see the need or us moving in the direction that our elementary schools would want this type of signage? Mr. Greenfield Prime at Fairfax High School even though we're talking about building a community center Fairfax High School does Operate and has operated as a community center for this community Even as the city moves forward in building a community center, there are many activities that go on at Fairfax High School, and that will continue. This sign is not only for advertising activities that go on for high school students, but it's also activities that go on within the community. In the past, the community activity's office has been very good about advertising city-sponsored events that are held in the building. City-sponsored events such as the home tour, that's an activity that has nothing to do with Fairfax High School. So the high school has been a very active part in the Fairfax City community and no matter what happens with the Building of the Community Center Fairfax High School will continue to be part of this community and offering space for community meetings and other community needs. And that sign will do that, but I don't see you, I didn't, I got a little carried away. But I don't see the elementary schools either providence or Daniels run or for the most part I don't see a linear following the same pattern. And I don't see that we would need an electronic sign at those other facilities. Simply because they don't have the type of space available that we have in Fairfax High School. Well, I recognize this isn't the jumbo-tron sign the George Mason University has. Certainly the same type of lighting that they have in that signage. I'm supportive, but I'm a little cautious at the same time because we have been critical of businesses in the city that have the neon signs up in addition to other signage that they have and now we're kind of moving in a direction where we're talking about approving you know signage that would be larger than what we're used to and illuminated in a different manner than what we're used to maybe the sign might be more appropriate as you indicated on Fairfax Boulevard at Rebel Run versus Oldly Highway in Rebel Run just as a thought. I think as you look at those two locations, one is really kind of nestled more in the community along Oldly Highway. The other is more along one of our commercial corridors. Just my personal thought, but I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you, Mr. Renfield. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Rampfield. Thank you Chairman Miller. I like the title councilwoman Miller better by the way Been there done that Mr. Couldn't resist can I listen and the spirit and if you recall signs were my least favorite things Well, I was irony and what I was about I was gonna mention here. Mrs. Miller that Chairman Miller, that I don't like either location to be frank. And I say that looking at my friends in the audience here too, who I have great respect for, and as well as you. And I just, I think the solution on the residential side is a bad one because of the residential communities that surround it. And I think, pardon my French, but the crap we have on Le Haaiway in Fairfax Boulevard in terms of signage specifically, this adds to, you know, more of the distraction that I think we're trying to clean up on the Route 50 corridor. I don't think there's an easy solution here and I guess, you know, if it can be done really tastefully and I keep thinking as Mr. Green, the first thing that shot in my mind was the same thing Mr. Greenfield mentioned about George Mason. I go by George Mason occasionally over off a Braddock road, not daily or anything by that means, but every time I go by it, I'm startled. I mean, it's actually startling. And I can't imagine, and I understand why the neighborhoods over there were very upset when it happened, but I can't imagine, even on a smaller scale, this is going to be something that's going to please anybody in this community. And I just need some real convincing here. I understand your concern, and certainly the size of the sign that we're talking about is no larger than what is there now. And the sign that is that George Mason must be three to four times about what we're talking about. And as I recall, I normally don't go that way, but as I recall, the George Mason sign is even animated. I don't believe we're talking anything close to that in terms of size, and we're certainly not talking about any type of animation. Additionally, this particular technology would allow the sign to be turned off at a certain time each night, and therefore turned on at a certain time each night and therefore turned on at a certain time in the morning. It's not something that necessarily would be operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And I do think Mr. Silverthorn, I was recently, it was late in the evening, maybe 10, 30, 11 o'clock. I was in the area of George Mason and apparently their sign can be turned off after certain hours because it was dark. But I think that this is, I think this is an opportunity to, to really let the community know in a better way about what the activities are that go on at, at the high school. The way that the sign is changed now is the staff goes out and with a little bucket of letters and changes letters or a student goes out. And the sign is not changed as frequently as it should be. When students receive honors or a team wins a district championship or when there is a city activity such as as the November craft fair or Fourth of July or graduation events. That sign can easily be changed in order to better inform the community about what is going on in that building. And I think that would be a good thing. And I believe there are ways to regulate it in order to make it attractive and at the same time as being more informative than what we have available now. All right, May I just include, I'm willing to give your last point a chance, which is, let's figure out a way to make it really darn attractive. As it stands now attractive because as it stands now and as I see these other examples of other high schools they don't cut it. It's unfortunate that the signs that are at the electronic signs that are at other Fairfax County public schools are unattractive. I always saw the schools for the most part. Our school is much more beautiful. Yeah, well, and the thing is, I don't think at this point in time that we really want to use an unattractive tacky sign to invite the community to our beautiful, no high school. So I think we will make every effort. And quite frankly, Michelle Coleman and other members of the staff I think are very good in offering guidance and will be most helpful in in assisting the school board in developing a very attractive very attractive signage that will meet the electronic the electronic need. Well, I will do my best to keep an open mind and I'm certain I'll be hearing from you offline on this. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. So I just see you, Mr. Chairman Miller. I do have a couple questions for staff and then I'd like to move on. But speaking really to talk about what Mr. Silver, I mean Mr. Greenfield talked about with the public schools versus the private schools, is there a way that we can change that issue and make it just something similar to what the county does so we are really helping our public school system. But then also we have some saying what the private schools might want to do. Are we going to be able to do that? Well, it's an interesting question because really we haven't addressed public use signage anywhere in our code for the most part. For instance, the point's been made that City Hall even doesn't have any type of monument signage or anything to really identify the building. The idea that the community center would probably want some sort of signage at some point, the police station sign. Now, I think it's still the old sign for the old school. So you really, you know, we really are somewhat taxed at the moment to identify appropriate signage generally for public uses. And I think in that regard, there's the potential to separate that from the private schools. Okay, so we could go ahead and do I'd like to take a look at that before we continue with the signage. The other thing Mrs. Miller you talked about a possibility of two signs. You said that we might be able to put one on Fairfax Boulevard and one on the highway. Did I miss it or stand that it is we could we could do both or we could do one location or the And you would do both out for $50,000. No, it's it would be it would be $50,000 for each sign. Okay. The school board has not taken a position on one location or the other. When Dr. Brabrand came to us, he asked for a replacement of the sign at Oli and Rebel Run simply because that's where the existing lighted sign is located and the changeable sign. If you recall, there is a sign next to Espositos at Oli, excuse me, at Rebel and Fairfax Boulevard, but that simply is, I don't think it's quite a monument sign, but it's similar to a monument sign, but it is not changeable. Right. And of course, I might add, of course, Council has the authority and the right to limit the amount of signage that is allowed on any property whether it is public or whether it's private. Right. Thank you for that. I do have it has the PTA is the PTA in favor of this? I'm probably right. Do we know? You're good. Dr. Braybrand says yes. Okay and we haven't talked to the community around. No well we really haven't and the reason this line we haven't done that is because we set Ms. Coleman and other staff members have worked to try to determine if this usage is allowed. And because we don't even know whether it's possible or not, we have not gone to the community. But we certainly would be willing to meet with the three neighborhoods surrounding Fairfax High School Gradoaks, Oli Hills and Country Club Hills if that would be the location. Thank you. And just to speak on the subject, I remember talking to you about this a couple of months ago too and not being wild about the new science. Now, I think about people having to go out and change these letters in the rain and you know, that is a good reason to consider it. I happen to drive by the George Mason sign once a week for various things that my daughter has to go to and it is distracting. I'm not surprised that there are not more accidents. It's really awful. So the concern I have is that when we are going to go ahead and approve, let's say, a sign for our schools, which I don't like any of the ones that I saw in this packet really, that the perception is it could be something that is way out of line. So I'm open to considering it. But if we were going to vote on any of the things that were in here, tonight, I would probably have to say no or let's go back to the drawing board and really get something up so I can really take a look at it. And I would also like to take a look at changing that zoning. So those are my, my couple comments. We're willing to work with you as well as the Mayor and other members of council to make this. Thank you, Mr. Miller. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Mr. Miller. I am going to say that I agree with the signage. Yes, zoning needs to be addressed. And in determining the location, as you reminded us about the extensive use of the high school by the community, it probably should be in a location that is going to attract the most, the largest number of people in the city so that they are well aware of what's happening. One thing that came to mind while you were talking about the two locations that were suggested, you know, in the middle, you know, the idea of on-revel run right at the entrance of the school would be another place, but it would not be passed by a large number of people to advertise what was happening at the school. I agree that there shouldn't be animation, but the ability to change as the needs change, especially if there was something happening in the community that maybe we could use it as like even in a little emergency board. And if, you know, the idea of when we had, no, I just not forget that example. I wouldn't have worked anyway. It's okay. But no animation, the idea of state of the art, so we can keep things up to date. The idea of belaboring George Mason, that sign, it is so large. I think the idea of keeping bringing it up doesn't make any point because we would not do something of such poor taste in front of our gorgeous new high school. And the examples that were in this packet were all on pedestals. And what has been proposed is a monument sign, which is low to the ground. And I think if we can look at a comparable size to what's there now, it would be in good taste. And that's all. But yes, I think it's a great idea that needs to become reality now. And if zoning is done correctly, we won't have the lead boards up and down a lonely highway. You know, and maybe for this one we could say that it is for the high school use or high school in secondary but that the elementary schools would not be involved. You know, if it was just high school it would be just two high schools is what, you know, we'd have to work with or consider. But since there is no real parameters right now in the code, make it specific. And then if something comes before this council or future councils, they'll have that leeway to say yes or no. But if this I think needs to definitely be addressed now now and I would definitely vote yes on it. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Well, I think Fairfax High School should have a new sign. We have a new building. We should have a new sign. I think we should be looking at the regulations for public signage, but where I get off is paying for it. We have put a boatload of money into our schools in the past five years that I've been sitting here. I think the idea that we should spend $50,000 for one sign or $100,000 for a second sign is just totally out of the realm of possibility as far as I'm concerned. So that's where I'm coming from on this. I think it's excessive. I don't think we need it. I think it's, I think it's excessive. I don't think we need it. I think it's a place where we can save a few dollars. So I would be opposed. But I do think that public policy in terms of electronic science for public purposes should be looked at and we should be at some sort of document in place to take care of that. Thank you. If I might comment Mr. Mayor on payment, the payment would not come from any bond or any school fund. The payment Mr. Dr. Bravery and has funds available from the local, his local school accounts in order to pay for that. So it would not come from an appropriation from the City Council or funds from the School Board. So this would, the funds for this sign would come, not from City revenues. Is that what you're saying? No, ma'am, it's local school funds through that Dr. Brebrand has available. And that comes, sorry, ma'am. Can I come to the Burface County? It's a slush fund. I mean, I thought I mean, is it a county slush or is it, or is it money that we've somehow appropriated? I mean, I think it's a fair question, although ironically, you all don't, the school board really aside from maybe this fund, doesn't really have money because they don't have taxing authority. So anything they do has to be paid for by the city. Well, that's true. So unless there's a county slush fund here that I'm unaware of. But if I could, what we're really here to talk about tonight is the structure that would allow a sign, the discussion on size and cost, and all the other things quite frankly, really would come at a totally different time. And what I would like to suggest is maybe you, Mrs. Crossfield, if you don't have any other additional comments that, you know, let's see if we can start to make some sense of this. I think, first of all, we have to make a decision on whether the council wants to start the dialogue and start the process. I'm getting with many hesitations or reservations I should use. The answer to that, probably within a certain framework, we could get to it, yes. But let me throw out some things, and I just started writing down notes. This is not in any particular order, but just to give some staff some direction, as we talk about, there's one issue of the sign at high school. There's another issue of oops, if we do it at the high school, how do we frame this thing so we don't have them all over the city of Fairfax. And I tried to write down some things that folks said. The first was it seems to me it would be very reasonable to define eligibility for this type of sign would be a building, a public building that provides a dual use service. In other words, a school and a community type center so that it's not just promoting one aspect or the other, it's promoting both. And that quite frankly in itself starts to limit down the number of schools that would be eligible in both private and public as we went through. Another one I wrote down and I don't know that this is, I tried to capture and I don't know if it would be prevailing or not, but we could also say that it would have to be on a road that is predominantly commercial in nature. That for example, on one private school that I'm thinking of, maybe not two, and one elementary school is quite frankly, and one side of the high school is primarily on a residential side. So certainly we could say that it would be limited to the fancier sign, not just signs, but to commercial roads that have commercial use. Certainly, I would think it would be fair that we could put size limitations, the concern of George Mason University. I don't know what the sign is, but it is a huge sign. We certainly could limit as the staff works through this with both staffs some sort of signs. We could limit it. I think I heard that the sign would have the flexibility to limit the hours of operation. So it's not a 24-7. It's on when it's needed to be on. Certainly, I would think we'd want to limit the capability of the sign, certainly the video. And I don't know all the other things. Animation type of things would not be something we would probably want in the signs. And those are the, oh, and certainly an aesthetic standpoint. In other words, you wouldn't want just a steel box on a pillar. You'd probably want some aesthetics wrapped around with it, which certainly it sounds like it's consistent with Mrs. Miller. So those are the seven or eight things that if there's a consensus and if we're willing to allow this process to go to the next stage, which I guess is to go through the Planning Commission and I guess first staff to draft what it would look like working with the school board and the school board leadership team with those comments. Are there any other things that I didn't capture that folks highlighted that we ought to at least give direction to staff as they craft this. Let me see then if I could, again, keeping all the options open and certainly the option of not moving with us at some point in time, but just to keep it moving forward. Is there any objection to taking it? The next step would be for you all to get together, draft a document, bring it back to us that we would then pass on to the Planning Commission. Is that how it would work? Yes, sir. That you would initiate. Are there any objections with at least going that step as we go for it, with the direction that we've provided? Mr. Miller, are you comfortable with that? I have a whole set. Okay. Okay. With that, if there aren't any other issues, Mrs. Miller on it, why don't we continue to move forward? Two staffs can work together based on the spirit of this dialogue and discussion. With the goal of obviously coming back to the Council, as soon as we can get a draft put together, and then we'll look at it and then pass it down through the process. Is there a date when this might, this work session would be held, or is that- I honestly, I would suggest just because it's been around for a long time as soon as possible. I don't know what that means in terms of staff resources, Mr. Sissan, and the ability of coordinating city staff with school board staff to draft this. You all would have to give us, maybe could we just say as soon as possible, and then you all get back to us in terms of that? Is that fair? Yes. Thank you so much. We appreciate your support. Okay. Thank you. So we'll move forward with those parameters. Thank you. All right. That now takes us to work session item number B, which is a discussion of the feasibility study for the Provost's Community Center, Van Dyke Park is part of these dialogues and discussions that have been taken place over the period of time we ask staff to provide the City Council for public review as well tonight what a community center and the $5 million plus or minus range would look like and I'll turn it over to staff for that presentation. Sure, let me just say Mr. Mayor and members of the council, thank you on behalf of myself and the staff for working through this issue over the last few months. I know it's been an exciting opportunity tonight. I also want to thank the Geraldine Sherward and Sherward family for really considering this tremendous legacy gift. And it's a legacy gift not only for their family, but obviously for this community. I'm here to give you some background on the feasibility study that we've been working on for the last couple of months through this process. And with me tonight is Elio Alfon, who's the principal architect for the Hughes Group Architects firm in Sterling, Virginia. To provide some background, we've been working on the feasibility study for a community center at Bandai Park, and we selected the Hughes Group for their extensive experience with park planning as well as community center planning. And most notably, they've done a number of community centers in the northern Virginia area. The Italy Community Center in Leesburg, Virginia, the Hurnes and Community Center, the Falls Church Community Center, numerous community centers in Fairfax County throughout the country. And we think that we selected an excellent architect to work on this project. They're also very familiar with working with donors in this type of venue. Staff began the process working with the Hughes Group on by reviewing a number of the studies that have been done, Mr. Greenfield referred to earlier. It has been looked at for a number of years. The 1994 study, the 2000 study, the 2004 studies all worked on through various processes. We even went back to the original study for a community center, Van Dyke Park, which was done in 1967. And Mr. Letter, Don Letter in the audience actually worked on that. I'd like to give him some credit for that. We operated on a criteria really four points in it. As the mayor pointed out Working within the requirements of the potential donor and we heard some of those requirements this evening also trying to stay as close to the donation amount as possible With the design and what is that that yield us examining all the options of you know Is there an ability to grow if if there is a desire and by keeping an eye on phasing in whether it's building site and so forth. And using the activities within parks, recreation, and cultural arts, within green acres and throughout the city that could potentially use a community center. The overarching goal that we had with this whole process is really to keep the aesthetics, the beauty, and the uniqueness of the Van Dyke Park intact. The slide show, the first slide is really just a chart that kind of outlines what you're going to see in the concept drawings as Mr. Alphon will take you through, but really you'll give you a comparison of what we use currently at Green Acres, the 23,000 square feet of Space Act Green Acres comparing options, one of 14,000 square foot facility options, two of 20,000 square foot facility and option three of 32,000 square foot facility. The concepts will take you through that. We do have some preliminary operating costs as well as some construction costs. And the items on that list adds for usable space, what the space would be used for. Is really just for discussion, it's up to, we're hoping to get some feedback and direction from you folks this evening of what the next step would be. So I'll turn that over to you in the cell phone. Mr. Mayor and members of the council, it's a pleasure to be here to present to you the update of the feasible study for the community center. Again, as Mike mentioned that we have been working with the staff as well as the office of the city managers for input as to what to put in this community center. We're going to present you three options, obviously different sizes and different costs, ramifications on it. Just to give you a background, I know all of you are familiar, just to orient ourselves, here is Old Me Highway, here is the new police station, here's the beautiful field that you have, play field. And right over here are the basketball courts, play areas and the picnic shelter and a series of sand volleyball courts. So before we had started, before we start looking at the community center, we wanted to look at where the community center is going to be located. So we look at it from a big picture of how the community would be located, taking advantage of the existing roadways that are drives that are in the park itself. Here is the proposed location. We look at different options. And this seems to be the most ideal location of the community center. Again, a U-shaped type community center just to break out the scale of the facility, a possible drop-off, and again, right over here is expanding the existing parking. And again, this proposal utilizes, again, this is the big picture. This proposal utilizes the existing entry of the road right over here, but modified the parking. And other amenities that will be strong along the parking, new parking area. So, after that wonderful big picture thing, so we started stepping back. I know we have a budget, always a budget ramification on all of these exercises. So we decide, okay, what if we keep the parking at the back of the where you have the shelter currently right now. Just modify that one and save us some money and so forth. And again, just trying to conserve. But the placement of the community center is very valid and so forth. But the other items that is that once we locate the community center, we have to relocate some of the amenities that are currently right now, such as the Basmal Court, the play areas, the skate park, and so forth. So what we have done over here is do just that relocated so that it allows some areas where we can locate those amenities that will be affected by the new building. Again, we are looking at three different options in terms of the building of the facility. terms of the building of the facility. One option is a one story facility with a 5,000 square foot banquet space that can be divided into three rooms. This space would have also a rehearsal room, a senior's room, a meeting room, and also some of the admin and building support spaces. This one story facility can be expanded in the future. I think it would be unwise not to think about expansion for a facility like this. This one again has a square footage of 14,000 square feet and it's about approximately 5.4 million. Now, this 5.4 million is a project costs. This is overall everything in it. I mean, including contingencies, including escalation. We had predicted some escalation costs. We have factors of escalation costs and those things. So it's everything for the project. Okay. Now just construct building construction costs. Option two is a bigger building. It has more community spaces. It has still the banquet room. It will still have the seniors as well as the rehearsal rooms. But what will the things that we added on it are the preschool facilities, a teen center, a craft room. So it's a bigger facility. It's 20,000 square feet, and it will cost about 7.1 million. All right? And again, it will have a potential of expansion. The third option is a, again, a two-store scheme versus similar to option two. The fundamental difference of this option is really not just the size of it, but it has a recreation component to it. the art facilities. Just to you're probably familiar with this, what the trend, what really departs the more contemporary community and recreation centers is that before the 1990s, the trend, I mean, the recreation center or community centers where you take your kids or drop them and then you leave. Now the difference, the fundamental difference is really the community center and recreation center contemporary community and recreation center are now a family destination. Think of it as a balance of community and recreation. So if you had that mix where it's really a family affair now, where a dad could do its fitness, weight and fitness, or the son could do basketball, and the child could do ballet. So it's really a family affair. So what this option three would do is go to move towards that criteria of family destination. Again, just to recap, option one, one story, there is a type over there, an option one, which is, it's just two story, but it's not. One story, facility, option two, is a two story facility. An option three is two story, but it's really a max size facility. Thank you. Just like to point out out the items that Mr. Alphon mentioned, the seniors or preschool, those were just for discussion purposes and as we move forward and just to show you how the growth could be as if this was to expand but where we can starting point for discussion and some feedback. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. John C. Wood was that was used for community purposes. I don't know the square footage of John C. Wood. I know Green Acres is 33, the whole facility. What I'm trying to get at is, you know, only highway for a long time has had both the police station and the de facto community center, John C. Wood. They are in the demands on traffic. I'm trying to figure out if we are in R with what was there or if this is going to be more demand. And how that impacts the surrounding neighborhoods, both rural, the hills and country, and far-crossing after that matter. And unfortunately, I don't have that figure tonight. If that's something you could get to it, that would certainly be helpful. This is more than enough. Looking at Chairman Miller. I don't have to. I don't have to figure on John C. Wood off the top of my head, but I will get that in an email that to Mr. McCarty had that information available at home. Right. The one thing I will say is that the 1967 study that had the JC Wood Building on the site had a community center next to it. The JC Wood Building's footprint was actually larger than the 22,000 squaresquare-foot facility that was on the 1967 plan. And it's not exact science, but I think it was bigger than 20,000-square-feet. The concept that you have here, is this the only concept that you've taken a look at? I noticed I assume this final plan would be, I think you've got here a building that would be 20,000 square feet, or if you expanded, it would be able to expand at this footprint up to the full 32,000. 30, 2000. That would be, does that correct? Yes. You just go ahead. Okay. At one point when we started talking about a community center a number of years ago and I don't believe you were here at that point, we had a, this was a band-ike as well. We had a schematic of a couple of buildings that would be back at the end of the existing driveway, kind of where the gravel parking lot is and we talked about kind of moving some things back there. Would that building not fit in that location? You mean behind the existing police station? No, no, no. Go by the graph. No, if you look at, if you look at, I'm sorry for the viewing audience, but if you look at the map that the aerial photograph that you have here, as you come up the existing drive, there's the existing parking lot, and then there's the existing parking lot, and then there's the gravel lot right behind it. The concept was at one time that these row pine trees would be removed, but would be shifted to the west, and you would set a building in this location. We did talk about that initially, and again, this is a very preliminary feasibility, part of the feasibility study and this is why we're here tonight too. But we wanted to take advantage of the existing parking that could be shared with between the police station, the existing parking that was over at the JC Wood. So it was minimal sight work on the project. That's where we initially started to look at. But it's something that we can investigate if it's something that the dances are. I think it would be helpful because the plan that you have here, the final site plan, really almost talks about reconfiguring Van Dyke Park totally. And when you do that, there's significant costs associated with moving the skate park, with tearing down to millions and moving those, redoing parking lots, moving basketball courts, all those different things. That's not the building building where we've got a gift of $5 million, we're trying to grapple with, do we do $5 million, do we do more than that? Then you're talking about adding new trails, all these other things in conjunction with this, and that cost isn't laid out in your proposal here anywhere, at least not that I'm saying. The cost for each of the site plans includes all the site work. So if there is, if you did, if it entails moving an item and includes that cost. So if you did option A, a $14,000 square foot building, for $5.4 million, that would be that building plus moving everything else for the $5.3 million. Yes, sir. Including the new parking expansion that is on the police station area. Yes, sir. And includes all the site work. That includes everything. Okay. If you're having a hard time figuring out why a 14,000 square foot building is costing $5 million. Now I'm getting to understand that you're moving a lot of other stuff and at total price. You are correct. As you completely read in Van Dyke Park. But again Mr. Greenwood, Greenfield, we could investigate. I've been called worse, that's. I've been called worse than yours. That's okay. My name is worse than yours. Fashionally. But we'll investigate, reinvestigate that area. One of the key things that we were cautious over there is that when it's a slopey area, you have basement space and so forth. So I mean, that's what we wanted to make it all of the spaces to have a natural light and so forth. Especially because it's a community center. It's very difficult for have, you know, some of my basement kind of spaces. That was one of our, and again, as Mike pointed out, one of our, the reason why we located it over there, because there is a shared, you know, we can take advantage of the entry and so forth. So, and also, at least in truth to the part itself, it preserves that back part really, you know, nice and distinctive, it was the whole rationale, but again, we will investigate. I'm not making an argument one way or another. I just want to make sure we've concerned. That was something that was thrown out a while ago. I just want to make sure that this is in fact the best way we've received. This is in fact the best way to go about it. Okay. Yeah, of course I have Ms. Marin on the floor. We, in one of our meetings of the last several weeks, talked about if we're not able to, if we do a 14,000 square foot building and we're not able to accommodate all of the needs in that building, say for example, we have to leave something at Green Acres. What is the cost associated with leaving that, whatever that activity might be at another location so that when we're looking at the full picture here, trying to figure out if we stick with a 14,000 square foot building or try to do something larger, whether we're actually saving money because we're consolidating that and we don't have operating costs at both satellite location. Sure. We included on the green acres column underneath the square footage, an operating cost for green acres. The operating costs includes the staff that manage the parts and recreation programs that are at the site, but it also includes the utilities for the whole green acres building. So cleaning utilities for 33,000 square feet, where it mainstreamed everybody else it occupies. But we're looking at a $485,000 of operating cost, parks and recreation staff to manage those programs and utilities. Depending on what was moved, we'll depend on the intensity of what staff and we'd have to stay back to continue to operate the programs that we have there. Thank you, Ms. Moore. Well, the question is its staff. Ms. Lyon. Thank you. I just want to look at just the first one. This is the first floor. In the administrative office, I guess you have park administrative offices there. How many folks are you thinking about having in that spot? I mean, couldn't we use that for more rehearsal rooms? I guess I'm concerned about the rehearsal rooms. Well, that was a placeholder again for staffing. You would definitely need to have staff there. I mean, very based on exactly what was finally decided what the activities would be. We don't anticipate moving our administrative offices from the city hall. We don't anticipate bringing a whole contingent of staff over there. Just the staff necessary to run a community center, run an activities. Very so much of what we have over green acres, depending on what, again, what the scope is that you decide for a community center. Right. And the rehearsal space is 1,000 square feet. I guess I can't read this. 1,200 square feet. 1,200 square feet. 1,200 square feet. And you can divide this into different rooms. Is that what you're? 1,200. Yes. Yes. We can divide. We can put the partition and a folding partition that can be divided 600 to 600 spaces. I'm sorry to say what? We can put a folding partition just like a divisible partition in banquet halls. And we can divide this. So you could have the 1200 square foot divided into two square foot. I guess I want to voice my opinion about the rehearsal space. And I think speak for what I thought the family might want to have. And that is when I think about rehearsal space, I think that they are soundproof spaces. And they don't have to be large because you know, son is it, both my sons have gone to different music schools and they have small music performing rooms and practice rooms in rehearsal spaces but they're allowed to play their drums actually in one of those spaces or they're allowed to do their pianos. And so I guess I'm concerned about just a partition environment for the rehearsal space. So I'd like to take a look at something different. So we're really talking about rehearsal spaces. Because I think that that's really the thought of the family. And I think we might need to check that out. Sure. Well, again, the actual design of the building itself, I mean, these are, again, there's a lot that needs to go into the actual work in the sizing. This is, again, placeholders to give us a visual of what they could be. And if you want to look at this as a blocking diagram, don't look at it as I say. Thank you. I'll consider it. But I do have to say that they all look lovely. And I happen to like, I'm even actually the location in the natural lighting. I'm a firm believer in that. The thing that I will be the, I guess the person who bring up some of the bad news is that this all costs money. And so I would be looking at the first option to begin with in order to be able to expand it. I'll be very clear because we're walking into a budget year this year and maybe next year that's pretty tight. And so I do happen to like that we've figured out a way to do this. To have it in this size, the first option. I like that it's not just a box, that it looks a little different than a box. One of my concerns is that if we do the first one, how do we just raise the roof to add the second space? I mean, I don't know why you would add. I'll pass it over again. This are, we may want to start with a two-story option so that you don't have to raise that building. The difficulty with option one is that you're stuck with a one-story building. An option might be to put the entire facility in a two story space, a two story building. You know, the banquet could be upstairs or vice versa. So again, we can investigate those things. But I guess my major concern is cost. I am going to say that that's really where I'm coming from on this building. I think I am just so thankful that we have gotten this windfall and that it's a donation and it is just really a blessing. But I think we have to be mindful also of the taxpayers of the city and that they are looking, we have to take a look at our budget. So I'm concerned about saying yep let's just do you know the $7.1 million one and we'll come up with another $2 million this year. I don't know quite frankly how we'll do that. However so I'm happy to have an event I park obviously and I will be tickled to do the first option. I may have to have my arm twisted pretty hard to get to the second one. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Greenfield. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Just one additional question. What's the square footage cost for each option? That's also on the chart. I'm only- Well, actually, I'm sorry. I'm actually not seeing that. I do have that information. I don't have it over here. Again, based on the total project budget, option one would be about, that includes sites, everything. No, I want to. I'm trying to get a handle on, you know, when we look at what this is a, this is a, the city hall is about a 30,000 square foot building. And the total to do the renovation of the existing City Hall plus a new building was 10 to 12 million dollars. There's a square footage associated with that. That's just for the construction. I don't want to I want to get a number just for the building. Okay. All right the construction costs Again, we have some site costs on this thing involved option one would be 300 dollars per square foot Option two again, these are approximate right now because we're basing on a very conceptual option two would be 280. And option three would be 263. And again, the larger you're building, the more efficient you get in terms of construction. And that's a natural factor. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Werner. Other comments or questions? If Mr. Winter. I just want to commend you for doing a good job, but the architectural work is very good. Again, I think we should do a good job if we're going to do it. And I don't know. There may be other donors out there that might want to help too. And so I would invite other people who may want to be part of this. We are limited many in many ways by this very generous donor that we have now. But, you know, there might, you know, sometimes more cooks make a more savory stew. And I would invite other input. Looking at $263 a square foot and having a very, very good project rather than just a half done project would be much more favorable. Thank you. Oh, one other thing. The idea of moving the skate park, I did some polling around my neighborhood since it's an adjacent parking lot, adjacent neighborhood. And it was told by some teenagers that the present ones wearing out. So it would probably be good that it came down and something better was put up. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Cross. Mr. Mayor. I think I think I would like to ask the city attorney who I don't know where he is, but Mr. Sissin perhaps you can help me. If additional city funds or bonded funds were to be used to add to the community center, are we far enough ahead of the May election to have that as on for the text for the voters consideration at the May election, a bond referendum to raise additional funds for this purpose? I don't believe we are. We don't. I don't think we have time. But I need to check the schedule. We have time to have a record. I don't believe so. We'll have to look at it. We're under the time allotted to have a bond referendum. Is that right? Okay. I think the danger is that we certainly want to build a facility that is used extensively by the community and to certainly comply with the wishes of the donor and at the end of the day that we end up with a building that complies with their requirements and serves the citizens of airfax in a myriad ways. So we have to be very careful in walking that line that we don't cut too many corners so that what we end up with is a building that is not fully usable by the community, that there isn't enough there to make it a viable community center. And then we have to wait several years beyond that to put the additions on or whatever to fill out. So I come down on this with the idea that some city money might be required to move this into a little more expanded facility than what is proposed in the 14,000 square foot range. That's kind of where I'm coming from. It's a disappointment to me that we can't even consider a bond referendum for additional funding, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't go forward with some municipal money in this building building for this building. Thank you. Mr. Sir, thank you. No, I'm awake. I'm listening intently. There's nothing to preclude us from going back to the voters for Von Ruff, for any of them. So I don't want to necessarily say that this has to be done in the next four months. That seems rushed to me. And then secondly, Mr. Mayor, I think my concern is, and I love, by the way, I'll be just as guilty on this, but in the reverse, I find it amusing how my colleagues from time to time, whether it be signage where four of some size, but against others and some are more gaudy and some are less gaudy. And then we talk about taxpayer money and bond referendums and we spent too much money in the last few years, but suddenly this is okay to spend more money. And now I'm probably on the other side saying, no, I don't think it is. I'm actually airing on the side of I think that we've done a lot and boy we spent a lot of money in this community in the last few years and I think it's time we put the brakes on it primarily because as Miss Lion alluded to and I think we're going to see probably the toughest budget years, tough as some years have been but the toughest budget year that we've had and I'm just gestimating here, but probably at least a decade or longer. So I like the idea of a scale down plan with the ability to build on. And I think that's what we had asked the staff for some direction on originally. And I think we've gotten that suggestion, you know, sure, is it going to be able to be all things to all people when it first opens? Probably not. I don't think any of us have any false illusions about that. But at least it gets us kickstarted in the direction that we weren't even going to be in this time a month ago or two months ago. I mean, my goodness, this is good news. And I'm just so grateful I didn't speak earlier, but I am grateful to the family as well. I think this is a wonderful opportunity, and we shouldn't look at gifts worse than the mouth, but at the same time, I think that coming up with new funding is going to be very tough. It's my opinion. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Okay, I think everybody's had a chance to say their thing. And I, you know, obviously the community can see by sort of listening to this dialogue and discussion, the complexity of the path that, and the opportunity that we've been given. I will say, up until now anyway, at least, sort of the spirit and how we frame the issue up until now is, you know, this community has just gone through a huge renewal program, spending a lot of money as many of my colleagues like to remind me both on the dies and certainly in the community. You start punching off the list of new high school, new intermediate, new police department, new city hall, new library. And every time I do this, I forget two or three things as we go through that. And I probably knew new five million dollars with the soccer fields. Two weeks ago, we talked about building a park in Pocitity Posure Garden that I'm guessing is a several million dollar option. And the spirit of where we have arrived at this point in time, at least most of the discussions, up until now is, look, let's take advantage of this opportunity. This was not on that priority list, and certainly government is nothing but a series of changing priorities that are driven by the community, hopefully, as we go through this. Let's build it in a way that can be expanded on by future groups and future councils, but gives this community the ability for a first class community center, although not the panacea of where we hope to be one day, but certainly a wonderful start by a tremendous contribution. And even at the 14,000 square foot, there's a million dollars of un-budgeted money that we haven't talked about in our $6.5 million shortfall that we just heard from the bug from our staff a couple of weeks ago. Just in the $400,000 that's over the $5 million donation and the $500,000 of operating cost that just once it gets open would cost us. So I think the challenge is the communities we go forward is how do we take advantage of the opportunity? How do we not turn this into a political issue so that we can get this wonderful opportunity and take advantage of it. And I, as I said last week, we had a council meeting that was off-site. That's going to be our challenge. Both as a community and as a council and I'll just say, I would urge us that, you know, my personality, and I'm well-documented on this subject, because I'd like to build it first class and the best way we possibly could. Now, that certainly would be my personality in this topic, but the reality is, then we have to bring in the dose of reality where we are and how we got here. And I'll just say, again, being able to build the framework for a community center of the future based on a $5 million unexpected contribution,ed carefully in a way that by future councils and bond referendums or however future groups want to proceed that could be expanded on to meet the growing expectations is a wonderful thing. I will also remind everybody we have a community center at Fairfax High School. We have a community center de facto at Green Acres. And we're going to have this additional community center at Fairfax High School. We have a community center de facto at Green Acres and we're gonna have this additional community center. We build a community room at police department. We build another community room at City Hall. So we are really doing some wonderful stuff on behalf of this community. We just need to keep that picture and I would urge our boards and commissions, I'd urge our community to not just look at this on an island because we can't do that in reality. And so we're going to have that challenge as we move forward. It's a wonderful challenge to have. It's a wonderful opportunity to have. How well we manage it, in my viewpoint, will be the difference between success and failure and a unified community moving forward where we start construction sooner rather than later. The thing doesn't get, you know, prolonged and dialogue and debated to death and all the things that could happen to it. So with that, I don't know that we've given you any direction, but this is, nothing else has been the first public dialogue so that the community can start to frame the issues and help us frame the issues as we go forward. In light of the fact that we are not even halfway done in our work session items, I would suggest that we take advantage of this dialogue. We continue in which suggests we schedule future discussions and dialogues in the very near future. I think our goal and our commitment at least to each other is that we're not going to let time get away from it so we can possibly avoid it as a leadership team. So let's forge ahead in that regard. That now brings us to agenda item number 12c, which is discussion of the RAC Cliff Park drainage planet. And Mr. Sisson, if I could, just looking at where we are and where we've got in front of us, are there any of these items I realize if I could. I realize that we're not going to meet for another month now. There are some also closed session topics that we're going to have to discuss as well. So are there items here that are not time sensitive that could easily be moved? Are they all in that category? I think that the emergency management plan is one that is not particularly time sensitive. We've had a good-sized group here waiting to make their presentation. And if we move quickly, maybe we can do all three of these items but Certainly I would say then that item C and D probably we ought to try to get through those and if we need one to sacrifice tonight would be Number E. Okay Okay. Man, that's a question of what D is so critical. Okay. Well, there's an opportunity for anybody to sit in this seat that's coming up in May. Right now I'm sitting here, so I'm going to control the dialogue and the discussion. Mr. Silverthorns asked a question. Mr. Sisson, if you could answer it, then we'll hopefully get into the agenda items. I believe Mr. McCarty is trying to move the ball forward on the park. And that's okay. Let's do item number C, which is the discussion of the Rackliff Park Transplant. I can be very quick on this project. In back in October, we did update you on what the Rackliff Transplant Transplant Transplant Control Plan was and we dramatically scaled it back. I did have some photos in here just to give you a frame of reference of Radcliffe Park, which I know you're all very familiar with, but just for the public as well. This is the West View from the corner of Sager and Locust. This is a little bit more of a look of the slope that's there by the basketball court, the North View from a trample court. The East View from Sager, again looking along the shoulder of the road and you can see the slope there. The previous plan had a lot of drainage work located in the eastern portion by the baseball field. We've dramatically changed that and scaled that back. There's no work that's going to be conducted in the east side of the park with the exception of replacing three dead trees that are in that area. We're only going to install one water fountain in the other play area as part of this plan in the baseball field stays in existing orientation and condition. The six trees would be planted three new three replacementsacements and the trees protection has been expanded. To point out, in fact, I did pick up on the tree recommendation on the plan and that will be changed if it is submitted for City approval. The City staff have not received it as a formal document awaiting your approval to move forward with this. The item's on the new plan new plan obviously keeps everything on the west side of the park stays far enough away from the the sicklemore and the play area creating some underdrains to take care of the water that's in that area. We have the three new trees up in this area and noting that this was a sliding area we will recommend moving that tree. Replacing the three dead trees down in this area of the park. The one thing that was a point of discussion the last time was the fencing. And after talking to some members of Prague and some members of the public of the fencing, what came about after trying to have some sort of, you know, not barrier for cars, but barrier by the basketball court. If you notice in the previous pictures, it showed a very steep slope in that area. The initial intent from what I understand from talking to a number of people was not to go down the whole line and say, I'm having you. But we had some fencing options to get some feedback from you folks on. And that was either down by the play area or down by the basketball court or all together. This is just a blow up of the drainage area and it shows the dotted cash line is the area where all the work would be confined to inside that. Again, this is all pending review from the city staff and those constraints could be tightened up even further. And again, here's the slope near the basketball court. And as a comparison, the slope near the play area. So I turn it back over to you from this to get some feedback. Okay, so if I frame your issues, right, the input you really need from council, everything else seems like in all the emails. And certainly the testimony, barring you working with the community on the trees are the the landscape selection which I would think we'd have all the confidence the world you could work through on a more technical areas defense. The one question I had is if there's a fence is it a chain link fence would it be a fence that would be more landscape more aesthetically pleasing to the community? It would be a poster rail fence that we propose very so much of what you see in Van Dyke. Okay. I don't, my personal opinion is either not do it at all or just do it by the basketball court area, where it was initially intended to do it. Okay, so let's see if we can take that lead either. Not do it at all. There's really three options. Not do it at all, do it at the basketball area, or do it at, well, I guess just for, or do it at the playground area or the entire length. Okay. Let's see if I can get some feedback from Ms. Lyne and Ms. Winner. I just have one question if we could just ask the $68,000. That does not include any of the fencing at all. That's not right. It does include the fencing for the full site. So that's the full site. So then it really would reduce the pay. About $8,000 savings if you don't do the... It's about an $8,000 savings if you don't do the same. It's due to the fence. $8,000? $8,000? Yes. Okay. For the whole length of that part. I would vote for no fencing. Mrs. Winner. Staff recommendation on the fence. Which is what? Help me. That's a basketball. Basketball on me. Okay. Other feedback comments? We have one of each. One no fence. One basketball only. Basketball on me, Miss Cross, Mr. Greenfield. All right. Silverthorn, anybody? Jump. Hey, you know, I will say that if I remember where the fence came up, it was by a couple of citizens and green acres that were worried about kids chasing the ball out into the street, which I guess would be isolated at least originally. It was up toward the corner if I'm not mistaken. So for what that's worth, but no offense. Okay, two no offense, two basketball only. So, Mr. Greenfield, quick to talk. It's too basketball only. So, Mr. Greenfield, break the time. There's one other option. Get moving on everything now, and when we get back in January, Mr. Restmustincere and people have had a chance to dialogue, we could always add defense at the end of the project, because opposed to deciding, I'm not looking for a cop out, but that certainly would be, unless you feel strong, Mr. Greenfield, you want to do that? I don't feel strongly about the fence one way or another. I'm happy to move forward. I don't think we should hold the project hostage based on whether we do the fence one. I mean, let's get everything else done. The drainage is the real issue. We've taken an opportunity to go beyond. That's great, but let's deal with what we wanted to get done with. Can we do that? A, your action item will be get gone and everything else. Our action item will be between now and whenever it is the 8th of January to reach out in the community and decide how people feel about the fence and by then will be at full staff anyway on Council. So, okay? All right, thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. And D is fairly important. And the only reason D is fairly important to set the stage is staff has submitted two projects that are already part of the MBTA six year plan or what was presented by MBTA to the MBTA board. And if those plans are not the priority of this Council, I'm going to kind of ask a lot of questions on, even if it is, I'm not sure how those two projects got in the first place without any real dialogue or discussion, especially one of them. But I guess the question I have is let's say this council doesn't agree with those two projects that are already going through the process of already been rated by NVTA. Actually, sir, there's only one that's already in NVTA, but we've actually submitted all four on this list. The Chamberlain Road, Ethan Place, intersection improvements, widening of northbound, picket road, expansion of Q bus service, and oddly highway improvements. You can still pick and choose, and we can amend whatever we've submitted to NVTA. And there are other projects listed on this list. OK, there was an NR NVTA board document last, whenever it was, Tuesday or Wednesday. Yes. They approved all four of these as part of that last Thursday. They were all rated. They were all approved. But this body has provided no input in this. Yes, and which is up. But before MBTA can act on our projects officially. They are still waiting for an official endorsement by the City Council. Without the official endorsement of the City Council, even though it's on their list, they are not going to approve the funding. Let's pour it. Mr. Greenfield. I guess help me understand maybe this is, you know, just we're putting them out there and it doesn't mean we're going to go forward with them. But if this body took out the funding for the engineering and looking at doing improvements to oldly highway because we don't even know what problems we're trying to address there. But yet we put this forward for a project for funding for NVTA. That just doesn't make sense to me. For the construction fire, yes. That's assuming that. But that's the problem right there. Yes. You just assumed that this body was going to do something, and this body has taken a pause on what we're going to do because the proposal was talking about making only highway more like university drive from Kenmore all the way over to Fairfax Boulevard and I didn't think this body was on board with that which is why we pushed back doing any kind of engineering or even looking at other options for only highway but yet staff made an assumption that we were going to do this, and so we went ahead and put in money for construction. What are we going to construct? Well, actually, I mispoke. It's not just for construction. It's for their study. And if the council decides that after we do another study of old Lee highway improvements, you want to proceed then at least we have the mind defending for it It just seems to me Mr. Mayor that we've got other Other priorities that we should be putting forward before we talk about something that we haven't even This body hasn't even agreed we're going to do and I have listed other projects if I could let me understand the timing if I understood the dialogue And I left early but is they pass out the document They're looking for a formal approval. Yes, sir of that plan on January the 11th or whatever the date is Pretty quickly right so do I the right date as a January 11th? Is it after the 8th of January? Yes. The 3rd day, after the 8th of January. So we do have one more bite of the apple, but my concern is quite frankly, is if we come up with another project tonight, it's not going to have been rated through the NVTA grading system, that a question if it can be done and added in suddenly by a jurisdiction that's not been part of all the dialogue and discussions within. The rating is actually done by staff. By the technical staff of MSEA. Yes. Yes. So you're saying if we had given a form. If between now and the 8th of January we decided we didn't like these projects and we wanted to add four more that aren't on this. You're saying that we still have that opportunity. As long as. As long as. Get it rated and included in with no, I mean, talk about surprise, surprise with no dialogue between the regions. As long as the cost. As long as we get a high enough rating, the raise to that. And the cost figure doesn't exceed what we have in this four. Because if you look at what was approved before, they had around 96 million that was approved. And then they had other projects pending, depending on how much more money they were going to get. But our four that's here was included in the 96 million. So as long as we don't see the 96 million. Help me with one other question. Let's say the council can agree on or doesn't have the time between now and the 8th January to come up with our list. Is the spirit about what's going to be approved, whatever the date is, on the MBTA when they approve it, that as long as we kept within the dollar amount and as long as it graded out as a project that regionally warned it consideration. Yes, sir. We would have the ability as a jurisdiction to substitute and add out as long as it didn't exceed that dollar amount. Yes, sir. Okay, so that, that, I don't like how we got to where we are, but at least that gives us some flexibility. Now, why don't we just, if we can look at these four projects, Chamber of Dredd and Eaten Place Intersection. I thought what that said in the plan I saw last Tuesday was the improvements coming out of Willowwood apartments where you cut in that thing. This says Chamber of Dredd, Eaten Place Intersection improvements, which would not be what I would think. Is that, are we talking about the same project? Yes, sir. Okay. Does everybody understand the project number one is. Is that, are we talking about the same project? Yes, sir. Yeah. Okay. Does everybody understand the project number one is the project that we've been talking about for some time, which is cutting into the medium for lack of a better word between eaten and- We'll a word apartment so that all that traffic could go out and then reconfigure that intersection. Yes, sir. Okay. Is there a consensus that that should warrant this process, whatever it is? Here's the problem. Right. Yeah. We did. I mean, my concern is we've looked at a lot of projects. I don't know in my head I'd put this as number one. In essence, this dialogue and process is going to make it number one, but I think I'm okay with that because I do believe that that would make a major improvement to that intersection. But this is lying. Well, I guess I have two questions. One is, my understanding is that some of the money needed to go at some point, like for the Cuba. So I can understand that piece because there's need to be some kind of split. But I so I need to understand. We're not down there yet. We're really just talking about one better. I need to understand this because the next, so I understand that there's a certain split that we have to do and it has to be a number one thing for so many for trans, a massive transit projects. So that to me is one bubble. And then the other bubble for me is what we were thinking of improvements. And then the other bubble for me is, you know, what we were thinking of improvements. And I just want to say, going down the list is, I thought North Facts Gateway Dranogen Widing Project was one of our number one things who we're going to do. So I'm looking at these first three and a four up here. And that wasn't any of the ones that I had on our list. I thought the North Facts Gateway Dr and winding project was the number one thing we were going to do. So, am I, was I wrong on that? That's an excellent point. Mr. Vizosa, can you, the other projects that are down below, the four of which you included, the other projects are projects at some stage improvement. I guess the first question is if North Facts, if Northwax gateway, which has been a priority for a long, long time, which gets a little screwed up on the master plan concept on the transportation, is that why that has dropped down below the line because we don't really have a game plan there? Yes, sir. But wouldn't number five then rise up to the top, which would include number one? Number five is basically the five, two, or whatever we're calling it. Now the lazy lanes, or I don't remember what the things call, but the slow lanes, or the priority the council set in our dialogue and discussions that are off-site and up until now as we wanted the improvements to route 50 from eat and place for lack of a better way all the way up to Camp Washington to add the slow lanes. That's right. One of the other things that NBTA looking at us. You remember it's the criteria Which they said which rates this project? Okay, and So your feeling is that would be right? It may not rise to a high Priority in which case it might drop out of the 96 billion if it's not rated high enough. Okay, that's fair Are they looking in the funding of one through four? Are they looking at total funding to get the project done? No. Or is it the accumulation of money that we know we always have to play? That's right, yes. All right, so go ahead and just slide. Okay, well, I guess I need that a little bit explain to me because if we're talking, it's $96 million that we're, that they're, we're approving now. I guess you need to explain it to me a little bit here. Well, they're approving $96 million of regional road networks. I'm dissipated, my name. Of that $96 million or whatever it is that would come in from the regional tax, we have in these four projects what's the dollar amount, total, for one through four? This is our 60% of our 40% of our, whatever it is. But do you know what the total is there? of our, whatever it is. Yes. Do you know what the total is there? 2 plus 5 plus 4 plus 4. No, it's 2.5 plus 3.3. OK. So in essence, we have 3.3 million of projects for our fair share and the city of Fairfax, assuming they pass the benchmark that the region has put in evaluating meaningful projects. Right. And so we can mix and match the road projects to meet 3.3 million if I'm hearing what you're saying. Yes, sir. As long as they get graded out in this regional. What the region has done and what MBTA has done, and it's done a nice job of saying, okay, jurisdiction is you throwing all the road projects, but there is a grading system that says it improves traffic, it's consistent with a comprehensive regional transportation. I don't remember what all the punch things are. And if it doesn't meet those, and it falls off the radar screen, if it meets those, then it's eligible for approval in this regional plan. Okay. So I think what I'm hearing Mr. Vrsocicec say, keep in mind that does not include any amount of monies that would come back in for NVTA, the commercial surcharge. That's really bad. This is only the 60 percent which the NVTA has. But I was diction over. And I get that I guess the disconnect that you're hearing tonight is. Yeah. In our offsite we said whatever it's called number five, Fairfax Boulevard Improvements per master plan was our highest priority. And we started talking to the community that between the regional flow and a commercial search arch, if we went that way, would go. And this was going to be our demonstration project to get done. What I'm hearing you're saying is great thinking, but it probably is not going to meet that regional plan because there's some question of if that enhances. And if you use 40 percent for this, you are better off. Okay. You have a better chance of getting this question. I don't know that I like it coming out tonight for the first time, but do you understand the logic that they've used? I can. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you. Thank you. The question is, I mean, if you were saying to me, we only have a limited pool, and do you want to get the Route 50 Master Plan project done, or do you want the curb cut up it, will coming out of Willow Woods, quite frankly, that curb cut would probably fall right off the radar screen. So I guess the question, is that consistent with all of our dialogue up until now to the question is, is there a way to allocate all of our money that we possibly can to that and see if it gets rated between now and January the 8th? And a number vote up on number five and not a number is one to four. Right. Does that understand when I'm? Yeah. Agreed. I understand. I want to make sure Mr. Vesosa gets what we're saying. I think I get what you're saying. What we're saying is number five, Yes. We want to spend every dime of our MPMA resources that we can to implement number five. And that's our highest priority. And so we would, I think, but stop me if I'm getting down in front of the council, but we would be willing to sacrifice, for example, number one, if all the money can meet the criteria to allow us to move it to number five, they're all 3.3 million. Well, I guess the only risk there is how high this will get rated when we implement the- But you just said staffs rated. Can you not between now and January the 8th run it through that rating process and see where it ends up? I can do it because I did the rating for the rest of the projects. Okay. Could you do that? Sure. And we can take a look at it. Is the spirit of the council's wishes that if we could do that, that's what we prefer to do. I mean, quite frankly, if we're going to do a commercial search arge and we have extra money, we could always do one through that pool as opposed to the 60 percent pool. But it's a big enough story. Right. But which were not. But we could. I mean, the spirit of the dialogue, just so we capture the, and again, please jump in here if I'm wrong. The spirit of the dialogue at our offsite was we want to float we want to, a source of revenue once it goes through the court challenges that will allow us to build route 50 consistent with the dialogue and the discussion that we had consistent somewhat to the master plan right away and not wait for that project to be 15 years. What I say, if what happens is, staff keeps funneling off little side projects because somehow we haven't positioned it in a way to get it through, then by the time we get around to doing it, we're spending 3.3 on items 1 through 4, which aren't at the same level priorities as items 5. However, what I'm saying is, for the more complicated projects, like the Fairfax Boulevard improvements per master plan, the North Facts Gateway, you're better off spending you're 40% on any of these projects, where you have complete control of the funds. We have complete control on both of those sources, both the commercial tax, because I asked that question during the whole process. Every time we're talking about commercial tax is different from the 60 percent. But the 60 percent, which is one through four, was supposed to be treated as total city money and not stayed in V-dot. However, we went through that whole dialogue with Tom and everybody else. But the 60 percent has to go through the six-year plan. It has to go through the criteria and it has to get the NVDA approval in. Right. And we're asked to run that project through that process for us. Okay. Between now and the eighth, we want you to take your Magic Little Pencil and find a way to fit that into the rating system. I would say that we then, when it goes through and gets approved on, whenever it is, we're substituting five for at least one and we haven't talked about the others. What I'm saying is if five does not get rated high enough, then it will not get into the 96 million. I hear that. I get that, but you need to tell us that you're making an assumption that we're not willing to continue. Then if that happens, what do you want me to do next? We have between now and January the first to figure that out, but I mean, eight to eighth, but to be honest, this is so important and we are so far behind the eight ball and this system stinks. Sitting here having this dialogue after you've submitted four plans to Vida without any council input is not what our intention was. So we need you to help us fix it. And what we're saying is we think five should supplant at least so far in this discussion one and tell us how to do that and run it through the rating system. Send us an email. It sounds like you can do it fairly quickly and tell us if there's a way to do that. I can do it fairly quickly. If I captured the dialogue, if it turns out that we can't do that, is there a way to rate all of these so we know which ones are priority ones? Well, if you were, that's what we're going to have to do right now. Okay. I think what we're saying is five is one. I think in looking at this list, we could probably agree that one would be number two, depending on what happens with number five. Is that, can we get to that point of, I know this sounds funny, but I'm trying to simplify it. Okay. So I think where we are, five becomes one, one becomes two. Which one? One is Chamberlion Road, Eaton Place Intersection, which is really the Willow Woods land berm cut to get people out to 66. That becomes our second priority. So in other words, if five falls apart, which we're hoping that it won't, then two would rise to that level. But we want as much of that $3.3 million to go to five. Is the screen filled? I agree. Can I ask another one? Sure. The existing number two right now in the proposed projects for funding that you've already sent forward, the widening of Northbound Picket Road is at the intersection with- Yes, sir. Perfect. We've submitted it so that our- So I understand where you're- I'm sorry, I- I'll have a few- I'll have a few- Mine melt there, I didn't- Yes. And where Mr. Greenfield? I was going to say, is it at North, at Fairfax Boulevard, or is it back up at where we're doing the turn lane improvements and it's our share of the turn lane improvement in front of Pickett Shopping Center? I think it's the latter, but I want to make sure. Why did he of North, the North, the North, pickett road? Yes, that's the one on Main Street and pick it where we're widening against. So, okay. So, well. There have been number one on the line. Well, I would say it should be number 55. We did that project because it's our joint. The shopping center asked for us and we agreed to pay not more than a half a million dollars, which I thought we had already moved on beyond. That wouldn't be a turning lane for the shopping center, wouldn't be in a high priority of NBTA projects. Unless you want the NBTA money to reverse your 500,000. To me, this is not a money chase. This is what are the most important projects in the spirit of the NVTA legislation to do? And I'll just be very honest with you, North Facts Gateway. I mean, if we're short on cash on that, then that ought to be treated as the general funder, that ought to be treated out of our commercial surcharge, or it ought to be, I mean, if this NVTA hadn't gotten approved, what would it be done? We already proved that money. As soon as it's coming out of the fun balance. And I mean, part of this logic has got to be connected. If I followed this right, part of this logic is all of this money, is clean money. In other words, it's Fairfax City money, though, it comes to other sources. And if we fund road projects through that, it doesn't trigger the state and the federal and all the other complicated things that put it on a slow boat. Right. And so we had to be a little smart about that. The picket road projects done. I mean, we've already signed off on it, moved it. So what we ought to be doing is trying to move that money into new, clean projects so that we aren't experiencing the George Mason Boulevard experience and the Eaton Rop 50 experience. And before I forget, if I may interject, even the $3.3 million is not guaranteed amount. That's still a budget because depending on how much we are going to be able to raise from the NVTA tax funds, starting this January, it would be our share. If we're not generating enough of the tax funds, then we are not going to be able to get the 3.3 million. It could be more, it could be less depending on how much we're generating. Okay. All right. Let's just keep following the lead, the Mrs. Linesett. Number two, winding in northbound Picarot. To me, that I just totally come off. I don't think it belongs on this list. It's so now we're down to expansion of the Q bus service. That's a whole new topic to me. Can you, and two minutes or less, explain to us what you got in mind. Last year, if you remember, Mr. Silverton brought up the idea of extending the Q bus service in the evening, because after 7 o'clock, the headway of our buses start to become from 30 minutes to an hour each. And people are complaining that they have to wait for long periods for the buses from the metro station. Mr. Silverton, I think you get it, baby. You guys just make that one. from the metro station. I think you get it, baby. You guys just make that one. Please, I just wish it was that easy, Mr. Mayor. Let me obviously, let me just, I'm happy to take this thought. We had a long discussion about this last year, and we decided that even though we're talking new funding potentially, but the fact of matters is that the cost versus the benefit that we all discuss was not there from our perspective. So while I appreciate your diligence in keeping it on the front burner, I think that this is one that can go by. Wow. Good. I mean, I'd love to do it. It's just in terms of the number of customers that you, your Salt Valley said you would be, we would be supporting with this expansion, would be minimal for these of the cost. By the way, George Mason is still interested in the expansion. And they have also indicated they're willing to add to the subsidy that they're currently doing. Now that, then we should take this offline instead of tonight. But I'd love to get Mason to pay more, Mr. Herr, and we can work that out separately because I think it would benefit the student population even more than our own population. But maybe the range of $1 or $4. Well, but here's the point for tonight's discussion. Those are dialogues and discussion that are fair to have and we should have as part of the budget process. I never thought that we were going to get to a point where MBTA funds were suddenly going to start pulling out individual comments and thoughts and considerations and future budgets and suddenly become a reality. I trust me. You should be flattered. But so I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have that dialogue, but it ought to be in the spirit of a budget dialogue where we're talking about it in the big picture and we understand if George Mason University and what George Mason University is going to find. Not simply say, oh, here's some easy quick money. Let's go for it. So three, I think we're saying we're going to hold on, which now brings us to four. And I got to tell you, seeing this one on four, I quite frankly the other three were, seeing this on four automatically as a proof project when all the dialogue and discussion that we had at this body, which was no consensus or discussion and no community outreach just shocks me. And what it's done is it's put us all in a very, very awkward position that suddenly, this project rose to that level and then BTA funding. When we as a council haven't even agreed, do we support it? Not supported? What version do we support? There were about 15 different options. There was, we punted on it, to be honest with you. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but this body punted on it. And if we're going to bring it back up, we sure aren't going to do it. I don't think between now and January the 11th, that ought to be part of our dialogue on our commercial search charge if it rises that occasion with a fair community input and dialogue and discussion. And this is just not the way to handle it. Is can we? No, Mark. Okay. I'm sorry, Mr. Mayor, that's the Chamber of the Road. No, that's only highway route number four. I'm on the road. So what we've in essence done here is we've said five Fairfax Boulevard improvements is one, and we're hoping that with your influence and your The only project left at least between now and the 8th of January is Project No. 1. Unless somebody can look at other projects one through six on the bottom half here and pull something else out. I don't think any of them rise to that level quite frankly, but. Mr. Meun. Yes, Mrs. Cross. The only project on the lower list that seems to me that has council consensus or at least agreement that it needs to be done is the bridge replacement of Chene Bridge and Kenmore. Certainly a project that has a major effect on regional transportation through the city, and I would say let's consider putting that at our number three spot. Does number four meet, have you rated these projects below you have? Okay. And the same spirit of rating number five would you also rate number four for us and let us know if that rises to the level that MBTA would approve it? I quite frankly don't even remember the discussion right now at this hours, but it sounds like we're all on board with it. Mr. Mayor, can you go back? I just need to, if number five lies, okay, then that would really include number one of other projects, right? What happened in the North Facts Gateway Drane? Well, yeah, it does. That right, quite frankly, is a substitute for one. That's the same. It's a changing course of one. The priority, and it always troubles me when I see that expression, Mr. Berserzik, because I know you so long. But what we agreed at the off-site was that you all were going to secure the services of an engineer ASAP to start designing the road improvements on route 50 that the Council and the whole task force, and we all agreed to. However, we call that the 5, 2, or the slow lanes or whatever it was. I hate to even ask this question at this hour, but I think we're all assuming that's been done and we're into that stage. Is that right or wrong? That's not right. Okay. Let's not have that discussion tonight because that's just going to open up a whole another thing. But that's where I think this Council left Project 5. And if Project 5 reaches to it, it wipes out everything else. That's all we're going to ask for. And our 3.3 million, we're going to ask for as much as we possibly can to move on project number five. I need further clarification on number five because on number five, I'm looking at it right now only as a preliminary engineering study. No. Not a construction. Well, we, well, I don't know the sequence, but the first step is to get the engineer to design it, so we know what the whole construction cost was going to do. Exactly. So think the spirit of the dialogue is we were going to try to use our source of MVTA dollars to help us fund a transportation finance package that would allow us to fund that project and get it under construction as soon as possible and fund it and use the MBTA money as the source of revenue to pay off that bond, I don't know, bonds are right where, but the expense related to that. This stage, I think the better strategy strategies to just coach this first as the preliminary engineering study that would get us to a set of plans and- Is that a $3 million project? The engineering- No, it's not going to amount to $3 million. It's going to be less than that. So if I'm- and I'm okay with what you're saying, but could we then, but then could we capture the right manor and set it aside for construction, just like we have on every other project? In other words, we're putting in the engineering, but we're also putting in the future of construction. So 3.3, whatever the engineering is going to cost, would pay that immediately. And the rest would go into our capital improvement budget for route 50 improvements. I need to think about it. That's going to get done. We're trying to write something tonight that doesn't even be written. I mean, I guess what I, Mr. Siss and I would suggest is let's capture the spirit of it. We're not easy on this. We're trying to write something tonight that doesn't be written. I mean, I guess what I, Mr. Siss and I would suggest is, let's capture the spirit of it. Let's pull together a meeting here and try to recreate this conversation and then, soon as we possibly can. So, and get your feedback. And quite frankly, and I'll say this, and I know everybody will cringe, but if this gets this complicated, and we have a lot more to discuss, we might not be able to wait till January 8th to do it. We may have to. Well, how quickly can you rewrite the lower tier projects? Have that done by the end of the week? Mean, right. You can rewrite. Right. Right. I can do the preliminary rating. I still have to consult with the rest of the J the NVTA staff that actually did the numbers because the rating that I did was qualitative and then they translated into numbers. So Here's what I would suggest. I'm going to get that done by the end of the week. So that we could meet, if we had to, we could try to meet next week. I think after that it gets very complicated. You would find out the... Well, but, you know, even shorter you talking to the rest of the regional staff. What we need to know is whether or not this is even in the running quickly. Can we not, and we've done this before, let's pick a time, four o'clock on one day, and those that can make it great, and have this little continued dialogue and discussion, and those who can't, which certainly is understandable, and that will then decide as part of that informal discussion, does that rise to the occasion of a special meeting or are we totally screwed up or can we meet the spirit of this dialogue? I think after I do the preliminary rating, I might be able to calculate myself how it ranks with the rest of the projects that we were ready rated. Okay. I mean, quite frankly, improvements to Route 50 Boulevard have to be as high as any other road I saw in those projects because it, now the question I assume you're saying is whether or not these improvements fall into that category in the minds of some or not. Okay. All right. We need to move on, but I think we have enough feedback that we know how to get together and keep the dialogue going on a post-day basis. And we'll pick a time in a date, Mr. Sisson, and make it an informal work session with you all after you've had a chance to chew on this discussion. And those that can make it great, and those who can't, and will communicate and make a decision on whether or not we need to have another meeting with everybody. Okay. All right. We are going to, in discussion with Mr. Sisson, we've already moved on past E. There was no time sensitive to that. Are we convening the regular meeting, Mr. Sisson? I do think there's probably one item that we probably need to do in closed meeting, but we can do that fairly quickly. Okay, two or three. I can ask a question. Sure. Would there be any objection from the chair of our colleagues if we do council comments now, or if we can have an action item out of closed meeting? We can probably do both. And let the staff go home, too. The ones that... Pardon? Everybody that's here is one. That's not where I'm going to point out. Well, we might, but I can... We can communicate that to you. To another words, if we do it, you don't need to stick around to hear the outcome. We can... Why not? Yeah, well, Cliffquer, we have some boards and commissions that if we don't fill up between now and January 11th, I'm not sure they can even meet. But we can do that real quickly, I think. If it gets complicated, we'll. Okay. We are now. Was the spirit of your comments that you wanted to do comments by council now? Mr. Maus? Is there any objection to that? We have to add something other comments we can. Mr. Silverthrone with that lead, why don't you start? Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'd like to move the City Council reconsidered to prove of this previous regular meeting on November 27th, motion adopting the 2008 City of Fairfax legislative approval. Sorry. Oh, this is going to be quick, Mr. Chairman. Okay, it's been moved by Mr. Silverthorn, seconded by Mr. Rasmussen. No, no, no. All right, excuse me, Mr. Greenfield, for purposes of discussion, I'm seconding his motion. Oh, that's what Mr. Rasmussen might say. If I even have the discussion, this motion will have to pass. Let's begin. We put it back on the floor. So this is a motion to reconsider the action on the legislative package from two weeks ago. Is there any other discussion before I, if not, all in favor of the reconsideration motion, signify by voting aye. Aye. Opposed? And a pass unanimously. Okay, Mr. Sovr. Mr. Mayor, I'd like to move the City Council adopt the 2008 City of Fairfax legislative program. I need to move re-adoption of the program. I'm sorry. Go ahead, and then I need a second. We already did that. Well, actually the effect of re-consideration. The effect of the reconsideration being adopted is that original motion for liability. Still on the floor? Still on the floor. Okay, Mr. Mayor, I'd like to amend the main motion that is currently still on the floor. Item number seven under Northern Virginia Regional Positions to include the following sentence at the end of item seven. And I quote, holders of concealed weapon permits be excluded from the foregoing legislation in quote. So that's, so now you have this paragraph plus that sentence. That's correct. Now, does that just provide clarity around the concealed weapon? Say it again and then we needed a second for this. Holders of a concealed weapons permit would be excluded from the foregoing legislation. It's been moved by Mr. Sir with the hand the second, and by Mr. Scro's discussion. Mr. Mayor, this is the same position that the city has had in previous years. And I'm comfortable with it. No further discussion. From Mr. Sirworth, aren't any other discussion? None. Okay. I just need to hear it right again and I need to understand. I was going to be quick. I'm sorry. I need to get this. Can you read what you just said one more time? At the end of item number seven in quotes, holders of concealed weapons permit will be excluded from the forgoing legislation. Okay, well I'm going to just leave that. I'd like you to go forward as to how we had it earlier in the legislative package. And that's a different position than you took to then you took last year. I understand that. Okay, just want to make sure that you understood the difference of the same position that the council unanimously supported. I'm sorry. Excuse me five to one support last year with Mr. Rasmussen. I assume it. Okay. Okay. And by the way, I mean, you know, we can belabor this, but I just so people know this is this as we saw in our last State Senate race. This is the position that was supported largely by the General Assembly Democrats and Republicans alike and signed into law by Mr. Warner, then Governor Warner. And the only other issue that I would have with this is maybe striking the language altogether. The whole provision, mainly because as Mr. Bull of a pointed out to us in our legislative dinner, the issue here that makes it complex is that whether or not localities, one by one, could legislate in this space. Therefore, as you go from Arlington to Fairfax to Prince William to Loudon, every jurisdiction would have a different standard, which is absurd. Nobody would understand it. It's a very complex issue. Frankly, I would prefer to strike the whole thing. I don't think we'd have support for that tonight, but I think having this one provision in here, you would support that? Yes. Well, that. Because I thought we talked about striking the letter. I thought you knew at the dinner. So that would be- I need to bring- So that there would be consistency from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I left- Well, no, but the Northern Virginia Regional Position does include this. So if we strike ours, our position would not include that, that Northern Virginia Position. So I'm happy to do that. I'm happy to do either one. Whatever I think we can get the five or more. There should be consistency from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. So however you can do that, I would be able to do that. It would be almost impossible, according to Mr. Boliva, at our meeting, because it would be up to each jurisdiction to basically what the jurisdictions have asked for is the ability under general, a ruling from the General Assembly, an act of General Assembly to actually legislate whether or not localities can have more control in this space. And if this ends up happening, what would happen then is that that City Council's and Board's supervisors in Northern Virginia would have to take action individually. And while Northern Virginia might largely agree, the minute you get to Prince William, for instance, they may not, or they may not agree in Loudoun. So to ask our residents and our community to understand what the laws are based on artificial, not artificial lines, but lines of jurisdiction that aren't clear, it's not like you're crossing the Potomac between Maryland and Virginia, you're crossing city and county, it becomes very blurred, and that was a very good point that Mr. Bull of the Mates, there's no way to get that, Mrs. Miss Winter. However, I'm happy to go either approach, either the approach that says those who are lawfully allowed to carry a weapon under Virginia law and still do it, or we strike the provision altogether. We have a motion on the floor, I'm happy to withdraw that if it's the pleasure of the council to go in a different direction. I'm just trying to make this as simple as possible. Well, it's not. It's not simple. So, yeah. Can you like to go home or? We have an emotion on the floor. That was second. Is there any more discussion on the motion on the floor? Ms. Croft. I would say that the consistent position of this council up to tonight has been the provision that Mr. Sobertorin has amended our legislative agenda. Without debating the merits, all of this, I really think that it's confusing to our legislators that we would waffle on this from year to year. And so I think we should amend it. It's a good point. If we can get consensus, Greg, I guess the question, if there's a short answer, would be why did he get changed in the first place in the package that we approved? Mr. Greenfield caught it Mr. Marin I'll speak to this Mr. Greenfield caught it tried to flag my attention to it and I was tired and grumpy that night and And well, and then let me ask staff who must be unusual. I know Well, let me ask staff them because you almost have changed it. What was the rationale behind recommending the change? They missed it. The reason for the change. You have to push your button so we can hear you. I didn't make that to scoot up a little bit. That was actually the position that was put in. That is the regional position as it was stated. And that's what we brought forward, that wording. So was it changed by the region for some reason? We have, well the region is split on this. They actually have, you know, and again, there are certain jurisdictions that would want to see the, an exclusion for the permits and others that would not. And so to make it clear in our package, it would, I think, would be a good idea to state that wording in our package if we want to make sure that our legislators understand that we want the exclusion included. Which is what we do, Mr. Chair. The spirit of my- Which is correct. Oh, I see. Okay. A little bit more clear. Fine, move it. Is there any other discussion then? I'll call the question. All in favor, Mr. the amendments to the legislative package proposed by Mr. Silverthorn's signify by voting aye. Aye. Opposed. Okay. Now the main motion. Right? Yeah. Now the main motion. Unless the maker and the seconder want to accept that as a friendly amendment, in which case you just voted on the whole thing. We're such a least spirit tonight, it sounds like we can get to that point. That works, then. Okay. That's a friendly amendment. Thank you. I assume, Mr. Syworthern, you've allotted your comments by Council Time. Can we move on to the next? I have other comments. I have more amendments. No. I have other comments. I just wanted to, two things. I wanted to, first of all, just recognize and I just want to thank Cox Communications for the notice that they gave the city. I think all of us probably got it that they're expanding their services and line up here in the city of Fairfax. It's one of the great things that I just want to point out, and I think Cox has done a good job, and I know that there's different views on their performance over the years in the city, but I will tell you that the best thing to happen to Cox is competition. And the Verizon now in the city, still not fully implemented city-wide, but that they're coming as cost cocks to become a much better player in our community and it's benefiting all of our residents in this community Direct TV now going now going as well with almost a hundred channels of HD and other services. I mean this is the kind of thing that I think we've been talking about for a number of years in this body And I think it gives consumers and in our residents a good choice And then the last thing I just want to mention is Merry Christmas and happy holidays, whatever is appropriate to everyone in the community and certainly my colleagues are on the City Council. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Mrs. Lyon. I would just like to wish everyone a safe and happy holiday and I have no comments. Mrs. Woodard. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I would like to commend the staff on the banners on City Hall. Those three banners are front really, really look nice and kind of add, bring attention to the new columns. Even though we're having rain not to be deceived by that we are having rain and that maybe the water shortages over, the water is, our shortage of water just still an issue. So, to please take that into account over the holidays and probably longer too. And then the last thing, I was wondering where we are as a city and policy research on the green initiative on lead standards. Are we working on that into the new year? Yes, I mean, that pertains to a building Building instruction. Yes, yes And for example in the library building that we achieved some equivalency of lead that could not Actually qualify because it became cost prohibitive and okay, and we had to sacrifice some but we are making Green initiatives top priority, other places in the organization. Okay. As the department has to be sensitive to it. One of the most significant things that we have done and you all have commented favorably already on in the past couple of months is that the Qbus will be going to the hybrid technology and we consume so much gasoline in that limited portion of our operations that it's going to achieve a significant percentage of savings for our people. But anyway, we'll bring forward further actions that we're looking at. Okay. This has been in the news quite a bit lately. Thank you. And a blessed holiday season in Merry Christmas to everyone. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Winter. Let me turn to my distinguished colleague, Miss Cross. Distinguished it is. Well, it's the great. It's the great here. It's the great here. Well, mine's showing too. I want to congratulate the city on wonderful celebration for our festival of lights and carols. It really just looks so lovely downtown. It's just magical. And if I'm not mistaken, I think the city crews did most of the free wrapping and lights this year. And it just really, really does look terrific. So kudos to them. And I just want to say happy holidays to everyone. And most particularly, all of those people that are overseas and not able to be home this year. Well said. Mr. Susan just, I'm sorry, I thought you went and you followed my view. You broke a no order. Mr. Greenfield, thank you walk away. Thank you. Please Mr. Greenfield. Thank you. Please Ms. Kainfield. Just a few items. One is if my colleagues will recall a number of months ago, I raised the issue of I thought the need to get an open space report out to the citizens of the community, reporting out on the progress and process involved in completing that open space initiative. And to that end, staff and I have been working for a couple of months now, back and forth on draft reports. Finally come up with one that we decided to get it out to the council, seeing comments from one of my colleagues. And I would like to suggest that we try to get this out, you know, get this into production and get this out, you know, as soon as possible. We wanted to see if there was any additional feedback and I think Mr. Silverhorn had some comments that he wanted to perhaps discuss this evening, but wanted to see if there is, I'm sorry. I don't know. Not tonight. Don't work. I guess push this off until the first work session in January. That's what we want to do. But we've been asked this for a while. So I'd like to get this off my plate and hopefully out to the residents in the city. So I will see which way you would like to proceed. I guess let's try to do it in January. To be honest with you, I know it came through. I just have not had the time to even look at it yet. So I don't know if everybody else has. If my comments to staff already. Just a couple other things as we look to go on into meetings next year, we always seem to struggle with the council agenda in terms of one meeting. It seems like we have one or two items and it's hardly a quick meeting. And then another meeting, we just are jam packed and we're telling staff who's been sitting here, most likely on the clock to go home. And we're doing the best we can. But the meetings that start at five o'clock, I know it's seem to be difficult, especially if we don't have a far enough advance notice. So I'm wondering if there isn't something we can do to try to figure out with staff a way to improve that if possible. I know it's very difficult. But at some point, we'll say I'll take the lead in that Mr. Greenfield working with staff and see if we can address it. Okay. That's it. Okay. That's it. Certainly wish the residents and staff here in the building, Merry Christmas and happy New Year. Okay. And Mr. Silver, the one's getting sensitive in the late hour. In your colleague, Mr. Silver, he's afraid to get a little bit of that one. Happy New Year. What are your time in next? Okay, that now brings us to item number 14. I move the City Council of Comina closed, meaning under Section 2.2, 3711A1 to discuss appointments to boards and commissions. Section 2.2, 3711A3 of the Code of Virginia Discussion Acquisition and Deposition of certain real property for public purposes and under section 2.23711A7 for consultation with legal counsel for legal by assault council members in favor of the motion. Please signify by voting aye opposed and a passionate say we're now going to join in to close me. So here's a final tune, on it that single fade it from us to you The swan you were in The river's blue I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little bit more. I'm going to play a little I But my dreams can't be found, watching it so I remember Christmas kisses under Missles Dough I know I'll be missing Christmas Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas, Christmas