you you you you you you you you Good morning and welcome to this Monday June 17th City Council special meeting. Madam Clerk, please call the roll. Council Member Barton. Here. Council Member Christmas. roll. Councillor Member Barton. Here. Councillor Member Christmas. Here. Councillor Member Cramer. Here. Councillor Member Peniman. Here. Councillor Member Petronov. Here. Vice Mayor Hutchison. Here. Mayor Heintman. Here. Thank you. And if you'll please stand for the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Good morning. Mr. Bush, are you setting the agenda? Yes. Morning, Mayor. Council members, guests. Just a couple of things this morning. First, I want to remind you all that you actually have two meetings today. We have a special council meeting that is beginning right now. And then we have an estimated start time of 3 p.m. for a special CRA to take care of a couple of quick items. That should be a relatively short meeting. We do have a handout that I sent to you all I passed around with some estimated time for the agenda items today, just in an effort to kind of guide the meeting and try to keep us on track as we have a lot of things to get through today and even more so on Wednesday. We have a 1230 time certain executive session. I wanted to remind you of that. And then also finally I will be passing out here in a moment and a communication that we received regarding item 8A. It's regarding the pedestrian and bicycle list projects for this year. We received communication from one of the neighborhood associations directly affected. As we'll pass that out to when it arrives, Kristian is running it down. With that, that is all I have, Mayor. No changes. Okay council any changes To have a motion to set the agenda Second I have a motion by vice mayor and a second by council member christman all in favor sign by aye Post thank you council passes unanimously and so today Thank you, Council. Passes unanimously. And so today we have our parks and recreation month proclamation. If I could have staff come forward. Thank you, David. Well these are the fabulous people that are some of the fabulous people that run our parks in Iraq which we are well known for. So it's my honor to present this proclamation. Whereas parks and recreation is an integral part of the communities throughout this country, including Naples, Florida, promoting health and wellness, improving the physical and mental health of people who live near parks. There are other parks and recreation from up time spent in nature, which positively impacts mental health by increasing cognitive performance and well-being and alleviating illness such as depression, attention deficit disorder and Alzheimer's. Whereas parks and recreation encourage physical activities by providing space for the popular sports, hiking trails, swimming pools, and many other activities designed to promote active, healthy lifestyle. Whereas parks and recreation is a leading provider of healthy meals, nutrition services, and education. And whereas parks and recreation programming and education activities such as out of school time programming, youth sports and environmental education are critical to the childhood development. Whereas parks and recreation increase a community's economic prosperity through increased property values, expansion of local tax base, increased tourism, the attraction and retention of businesses and crime reduction. Whereas parks and recreation is essential and adaptable infrastructure that makes our communities resilient in the face of natural disasters and climate change. Whereas our parks and recreation areas ensure the ecological beauty of our community and provide a place for children and adults to connect with nature and recreate outdoors. Whereas the U.S. House of Representatives has designated July as Park and Rex Month, and whereas the City of Naples recognizes the benefits derived from the Parks and Recreational resources. Now, hi, therefore, Theresa Heipman, by the virtue and the authority vested in me as mayor for the city of Naples, Florida, do here proclaim the month of July be designated as parks and recreational one. And I will present this to you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you for all you do, and do you have a few words to say? I give a few words. I only had one second, told me to do this confirmation. They did all prepare five minutes to speak. We'll hold off. So thank you and thank you for the support mayor, City Council and Parks and Recreation. We have a great professional team. You see the ones represented behind. We have a lot of others that are out in the field. It's my pleasure to be part of this team. You see the ones represented behind. We have a lot of others that are out in the field. It's my pleasure to be part of this team. So thank you for everything that you do and the support that you give us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We get a photo. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you I really smile. Thank you. Thanks folks. Thanks everybody. Thank you. All right. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thanks folks. Thanks everybody. Thank you. All right. Thanks folks. So good morning. It's my honor on behalf of Council to welcome our new city attorney, Mr. Matthew McConnell, thank you. We're very happy that you're here. We need an attorney who really has the city and the community and our legal backs. So we welcome you. We have a lot of processes to work through over the summer council, which we've already started our charter meetings and we'll be having a charter meeting every week during the summer so that when you come back, hopefully some of the things that having a new attorney and their perspective will be able to present to you so welcome. Vice mayor. Yeah, thank you Madam Mayor and for our city attorney there was Just a item of business that we need to make record of and that's your birthday. What's your birthday? December 16th 1990. Oh, you didn't even have to give us the year 1616. Okay, we just want to make sure you get the pleasure being recognized. We'll make sure you make good note of that. Thank you. Good ask. Okay. So that takes us to 4B, Mr. Rambsk. Good morning. Good morning, Mayor and members of the council. So this morning we were supposed to interview two applicants for the East Naples Bay Citizens Advisory Committee. We have one regular opening for a three year term. This is a five member board with one alternate. Your alternate member, Richard Chanahan, expressed an interest in serving as a regular member. He was scheduled for an interview today, and I don't see him in the audience today. Mr. Jeff Bowen served on that committee and his term expires, and he did not wish to be reappointed. In the meantime, I received just prior to the weekend, and after your packet went out, an application from Maria Mayor and Jessica passed out the application to you. Mrs. Mayor has recently relocated to Clam Court and she does qualify within the boundaries of the East Naples Bay District. And she is here today and I'd like to welcome her and invite her up to the desk for an interview. Good morning, welcome, if you'd like to have a seat. Thank you. Good morning, nice to see you all. Good morning. Nice to see you all. Good morning. Well, thank you for your application. And I know you're very involved in our community, which we all appreciate. So why this particular committee? Well, a couple of reasons, really, or three reasons. The first is that I was looking to do some more voluntary work, because I've got some extra time coming up this year and in future years. And as Sarandipati would have it, looking through the vacancies on the website, because I know that there's often shortages on boards and committees, I saw there was one for East Naples. And as that was the location I had just moved to, I decided to apply. But I wasn't going to send the application in until around September. I thought, well, the board, they're meeting tomorrow. So I thought you wouldn't be interviewing. Didn't see the agenda for today. Didn't think you'd be interviewing. Sent off the application just a few days ago. And literally, I think it would have been 40 minutes later, I got a call from City staff from Jessica saying, could you come for an interview? So the reason I am putting myself forward is because I'm in that location, because there was a vacancy. And I also think my skills, not necessarily in the voting world, but in terms of project management and looking at budgets and communication will be the skills that I'd be able to bring to this particular committee. Well, thank you. Council, do you have questions? Council Member Pejans. I just want to thank Maria. I actually, I was reading the code enforcement minutes over the weekend and I know that you're a member of the code enforcement bore you to acknowledge that in your application here. And it appears Maria that whatever you decide to do you give 150 percent instead of 100 percent. So we'd be glad to have you. I'm sure on another board. We need more people like you. So thank you for applying. Thank you. I always enjoy my volume. vulnerable looks. I didn't get a first to be so. Thank you. Any other questions? Okay. Councilmember Christian? Just sort of a perfunctory question we ask everybody Miss Mayor. You're given the meeting schedule of this advisory board as you know it in your own travel schedule and during the year you don't see any problem making out in the meetings. No, I noticed from going back reading, looking at the minutes and looking at the meetings that they had, they meet quarterly, but they have met monthly in the past and that's not a problem to me because I am full-time. Code enforcement is actually harder, because you have to be all of the time, and they don't always meet, and you never know, until sometimes the week before. So no, although I do do my travels, go on holidays, et cetera, I tend to work them around whatever meetings and commitments I have and I am here full time so shouldn't be a problem. Thank you for applying. Councillor Mour, Petra. Thank you Mrs. Mayor for applying. I wanted to ask you what about this board in particular is interesting to you. Right now their big project is the Dredging Project. Well, it is, and as I am hoping to start voting, I have been voting before and kayaking around those areas. I currently walk, run, bike, scooter around every street that's there. There is now the interest it is because the Dredging is obviously so important to that area. And the project is going quite well now, although it's been delayed as everybody knows. But the reason it would be interested to me is twofold. One is I'm going to go to the auxiliary guard and have some lessons and find out more about voting. I always like to do everything to its full hilt. Is knowing I'd be able to get in and out of those canals would be vitally important to me and that they're now getting them to that consistent level which is important and also the community involvement. I love being involved in whatever community I'm in and seeming as that is such an important thing to everybody there because the houses, condos, apartments are all within that water and land use, that's vitally important to me, and also pretty much skills to good use. I would firmly believe in putting back into the community wherever you live. Well, thank you very much. Thanks for applying. Thank you. Okay, seeing no further questions, thank you again for your commitment to the city and volunteering 150% when you give your all. Thanks. I'll give you a time. Council just further record. We did have another applicant, Dennis Park, and he's been invited here for an interview twice and couldn't make it due to a heavy travel schedule. And he will not be able to be a candidate at this time as his schedule has just not allowed him to be here for meetings. So I just wanted to mention that because he was in the agenda memo. And also Richard Chanahan, who was interested in the regular position. Also, his term does not expire until March of 2026. So he'll continue to serve on the board. So Wednesday, we have one applicant then for one position. I just wanted to bring that out. Thank you. Okay, thank you, Mrs. Rammas. That takes us to 4C. Mr. Buddha-Schwar. Yes, thank you, Mayor. The next item is our annual presentation regarding our stormwater as our annual presentation regarding our stormwater testing program and results. I'm going to let Bob Middleton introduce the details and then I'm sure he has some other folks he's going to introduce as well. Good morning mayor. Members of the council, Bob Middleton Public Works Director. As the city manager mentioned this morning you'll be receiving the annual stormwater lake and pump station water quality report. This is a report we provide to City Council annually. And with me today is Chris Leigh Hart. He's our lakes manager. He oversees this project and with us also is our consultant, WSP, who may be making the presentation. Chris, do you have anything to add to that? consultant WSP who may be making the presentation. Chris, do you have anything to add to that? With that, we'll get on with the presentation. Thank you. Thank you. I do not know how you Mr. Greenheart reviewed all of this information I tried. I did my due diligence, so I look forward to this presentation. And good morning to you, sir. Good morning. So my name is Lance Lombard. I am the water quality management manager for WSP. And with me, I have my team. I have Mark Morshewsky, Craig Duxberry, Christine Leonard, and these folks are here. They've been out in the field. They've run our statistics. They're ready to help me back me up as part of this presentation, and we're certainly glad happy to be here at 8 o'clock on a Monday morning, which I think is pretty impressive. Then we're certainly glad to be here and impress that you all are here as well. So that being said, you've seen a couple of my staff in previous years give a similar sort of state and lakes presentation. So I felt it was high time that I came and gave this presentation to myself. So I'm here and looking forward to sharing this information with you. And it won't be, I'll make it as precise and informative as possible. And just to let you know, a lot of those pages are laboratory reports and a lot of the information that backs up the meat of this of the document. So document itself isn't quite as scary. Just just a couple dozen pages. So if you ever really want to get into the into the meat of it, you know, don't let those thousand pages scare you. Thank you. All right. So what we are talking about today is how the city's lakes respond to inputs from storm water. And as you probably all know, from previous presentations or discussions from stormwater pollution in general. The lakes that we're talking about within the city of Naples are actually stormwater lakes, right? That sets them very much apart from natural lakes. And it also sets them apart from lakes that somewhere along the lines became stormwater ponds, too, right? So cities quite often do that as well. So in this case, these lakes are essentially the primary receptor and primary treatment process for storm water. So we keep that in mind just with the understanding that we sometimes, because these lakes are also in everybody's backyard and they want to look at them and see them as the amenity, we have to re-strategize and try different things, use different management approaches to make sure that the water quality within the lakes meets everybody's, or at least comes as close as possible to meeting everybody's expectation of living on a waterfront property, right? So that's what we're here to talk about, and really we're here to present you with the data that allows us to manage the lakes. So we can't manage what we don't measure, right? So this is all about measurement of water quality and how the stormwater is handled and how the environmental response within each stormwater pond. So within the lakes the city has 28 stormwater lakes within within the limits. 22 of them are actually monitored as part of this program. Within those 22 lakes, most of them are outflow, right? So we sample by the outflow of each of these lakes. Recently we've added two inflow monitoring stations which give us some idea of what's going in and what's coming out. And that's a little bit of a difficult concept to consider because in general, when we're monitoring these lakes, we're only looking at the conditions at the time that they're being sampled, right? So the lake may be flowing, it may not be flowing, it may have been dry for three months beforehand. So we don't necessarily know other than observing how much flow is moving through these lakes. So we talk a lot about concentrations in this report. What we would like to know, and sometimes down the road, we'll get there, what we would like to know is mass. So stormwater and lake management is all based on mass loading. So how much of a particular pollutant gets into the water body? That's pretty critical. So one of the things we also measure is pump stations. So we go out and we'll measure inside these wet wells when we're collecting. So there's a couple of pump stations that we monitor as well. Those 22 lakes go into four different water bodies or four different receiving water bodies and the Gulf of Mexico. So Gordon River is one of them that's a set of lakes that drains to Gordon River, as it's a set of lakes that drains to Gulf of Mexico. There's a set of lakes that drains to Moring's Bay, a set of lakes that drains to Naples Bay, and then the pump stations. And all of these have different requirements downstream. So that's what the DEP sets as far as TNDLs. So there's different conditions that are placed upon downstream water bodies. And that necessarily is not what we're interested in. Specifically, when we're talking about managing the stormwater lakes, but when we're talking about managing downstream loads, that is important. And that'll come up later in a little bit here. managing downstream loads that is important. And that'll come up later in a little bit here. So these are the end lights that we're looking at. And this is really what makes up the bulk of the reports to God of all these reports that come with the data that's collected. Mostly what we're looking at is nutrients, which are what feed the algae. We look at chlorophyll A, which is a measurement of how much algae is in the water. We'll look at copper. Copper is kind of a, it's a different parameter because copper tells us something about what was used to treat, we used to treat algae in different kinds of things in these, in these ponds historically. I don't think you guys use copper much anymore, but it does tell us a little bit about the history. And copper is, is an analyte, an impairment downstream in some of these water bodies as well. And then finally, fecal indicators. So indication of wastewater contamination, maybe pet waste, things like that. That's what the fecal indicators tell us. That's what the FEECO Indicators tell us. That's FEECO-Callform, including an Entero-Coxi in E. coli. You guys probably all seen all these before. It's nothing new. Yeah. The lakes, they have a couple of different conditions, obviously. This lake in particular, wake up my mouse here. You can see the grass, the St. Augustine grass, goes all the way down to the edge of the lake. And sometimes people have that as a vision for what their lakes should look like. As a scientist and ecologist, I like see a little bit more diversity, but it is what it is. So this is a more sort of a natural condition along the shoreline. This is actually a little bit more desirable from an ecological perspective. And then we have somewhere that's in between on alligator lake here. Couple of things to consider. Talk a little bit about statistics. Just because something is statistically significant doesn't necessarily mean it's environmentally important. It doesn't mean it's ecologically significant really. It generally is, but sometimes when something isn't statistically significant, it is ecologically significant. So we don't want to let the statistics tell us everything, although they help. And as I mentioned before, we're looking, when we're looking at impairments, we're talking about downstream, right? Because your stormwater lakes are not going to be impaired themselves, because they are actually NPDES facilities, right? So they're not regulated from a water quality standard, because they are the regulation device. So I'll get into the actual constituents themselves. Total nitrogen and total phosphorus, those are nutrients. The highest concentrations that we are looking at are lantern lake, port royal, the pump station, and NCH lake. And then a couple of lakes show an increasing trend, that's East Lake, and then a couple of different nitrogen forms are increasing in East Lake and North Lake. And then we have quite a few there decreasing. So I've got a consolidated list of all these in a few slides here. But this is similar story as to what we've seen the past couple of years. The highest lakes are a little bit on the south side of the city. Oh, and one thing I want to mention also is that nitrogen from our perspective, nitrogen is important in the downstream water bodies, right? Because in brackish salt water systems, nitrogen is actually what limits the outlaw growth. In freshwater systems, so when we're actually in the lake, when we're talking about managing the lake water quality itself, phosphorus is our limiting nutrient. So that's what we want to control in stormwater lakes. Highest concentrations are lantern lake, Port Royal Pump and NCI lake for total phosphorus. We have quite a bit of decreasing total phosphorus ponds or lakes in the city, which is good news. That's this range from 2015 to 2023. Just point that out. That's this range from 2015 to 2023. Just point that out. Chlorophyll A, which is our measurement of how much algae is actually in the water, very similar to the nutrients. So it goes hand in hand, higher nutrients generally results in higher chlorophyll A, higher algae. So those are the lakes where we want to potentially focus more effort as far as how to manage that. Decreasing chlorophyllate concentrations and increased chlorophyllate concentrations are shown at the bottom there. Copper has a little bit of a different story. Copper is a little bit higher on the north side of the city. And this is probably where the copper-based herbicides were typically used historically. So fortunately we have lots of decreasing copper concentrations in these ponds as well. The California or the wastewater indicators, south part of the city. Similar areas as to where our higher nutrient concentrations were. But it's a little bit different. And these depend on the surrounding areas and the particular inputs to it. So some of them may have dog parks or areas where people walk dogs more than others. That's a big potential one. Could be leaky sewer pipes, leaky septic systems, something like that. Those are things we need to keep an eye on there. E. coli and intercoxide, those are the two other fecal or wastewater indicators. So very similar results as well as the fecal coliforms. And these are very host specific though. So fecal coliforms are kind of general tell you that anything that's producing waste could be a fecal coliforms are kind of general to tell you that anything that's producing waste could be a fecal coliform source. Equal and interarcoxyl are supposed to be tied more to human pathogens or human waste. But not necessarily, we've shown that they tend to linger in pipes and in sediments. So whatever contaminant may have happened six months ago and you might still find them in the pipes and systems. So that's something to keep in mind. So this is the combined figure, and I think it's what everybody should find very interesting. All these green boxes indicate that we've got significant decreases in these parameters, and that's good news. The one thing we want to keep in mind is that there are a number of reds, and particularly in the bacteria. So a number of the lakes show increasing trends in bacterial concentration. That's Lake Manor in South Lake particularly. A couple of nutrient increases alligator lake, East Lake, devils lake showing a significant chlorophyll A increase, which means it probably looks a big reener, but the nutrient concentration does not follow that same significant trend. And then we have a chlorophyll A increase in lakes who's in as well. This is also a very interesting table. Lots of numbers here. But the important part here is that it simply shows some of the parameters that are higher in the lakes than they are in the downstream water bodies, than the impairments for the downstream water bodies. The impairment limits, I should say. So this just means that what's coming out of these lakes is likely to be contributing to the impairments downstream. That makes sense? So in summary, our highest nutrient concentrations are indicated in lantern lake, port royal, the port royal pump, and NCH lake. We have higher copper concentrations in NCH lake, devil's lake, and hidden lake. Chlorophyll A is pretty high across the board. And then we have high bacteria accounts, like 13, alligator lake, all the pump stations, and louder melt lake. And as I mentioned statistically significant trends indicate that most everything is, or at least the nutrients are decreasing most everywhere. So we appreciate the city letting us continue to do this, allowing us to continue to do this monitoring. And I want to point out that you guys have one of the most comprehensive stormwater lakes databases in the state. So, should be proud of that. It's a pretty neat achievement. And it certainly gives you guys the tools you need to manage these systems going forward. And we think that's a, it'd be a great thing to, obviously, continue to do. We'd love to continue to help you with that. It allows us to prioritize and set some opportunities for implementing projects to maintain and improve water quality within some of these lakes and downstream. We can do some focus studies where we look at the actual loading, like I mentioned earlier. So that will tell us what's coming into the lakes and what's going out of the lakes, right? So that's going to be key. We'd like to get some resolution on what these lakes are actually handling in a given year. And of course our continued public outreach is something that generally gives you a pretty good bang for the buck. The EP gives you credit for it. It's a good, it's a best management practice and it's a way to get the, it's a way to get the public involved. Some basic examples you may have seen these before. This is just BMP 101 for stormwater. This is like a pretreatment for a stormwater pond. So anytime you can incorporate additional technology in a treatment train like a biosorption activated media, that helps take out these nutrients before they even get to the pond, right? So that's one way you can help control phosphorus, one way you can help reduce the chlorophyll A, and the algae that grow in the pond after it gets into the water. So take it out before it gets there. And we can do this with a few other things. There's a couple of injection technologies. You guys, for the alum, there's also a new product called UDESORB SI, which is a liquid and lathened based product. liquid, lanthan-abased product has similar opportunities to remove orthophosphate. It doesn't generate as much flock, so not as much maintenance that you have to do in the pond itself. What, I'm sorry, what was that called? Uresorb SI. It's a liquid-based product as opposed to some of the new products or the other products that are on the market, Lengthen-A-Based Products, their powder form, sort of granular. Utils or best size. It can be injected similar to liquid aluminum. And with that, I'll open it up to questions. And with that, I'll open it up to questions. Well thank you. I will just, I'd like to focus in on your recommendations and the type of testing since we've been doing it since 2015 now. I'd like to know your point of view of, because we weren't testing the same exact way in the same places or the method of testing. So, that I wanna make sure if we continue in this testing, what areas that you specifically think in the scope we should change. And then those strategies from these results, which you have the recommendations, and of course, I'm glad you mentioned outreach. And you said that we can receive a credit for that outreach, correct? You may have already received it But yeah, it's something that the EP will grant as part of a B map It wouldn't really be part of the stormwater lakes project, but it could be for downstream Well, we can talk about our basin maps and where we are with that So what about the testing in areas? Yeah, so as I mentioned you guys have very robust database already. I think there are a number of things that we can look at the bacterial impairments, the bacteria that are on impairments, sorry, the looking for the bacteria. We can specifically look at additional parameters that could tie this into actual human sources. So we use microbial source tracking for that. And that allows us to actually look at the specific bacteria, satellite DNA that's associated with human gut bacteria. So it's very specific, very exclusive. We have a couple of labs that can run this for us and we use it for number of our clients. There's also, we can look for sucralose. Of course, sucralose will tell us that could tell us, you know, if we have reclaimed water getting into the system, we won't be able to have reclaimed water getting into the system, we won't be able to differentiate reclaimed from septic versus sewer leaks. But it all kind of tells us that it's likely to be coming from the same source. But sucalose is a tracer, a chemical tracer that can be used. It's very conservative in the waste stream. And obviously it comes with, that's the main component of Splenda and synthetic sweeteners. So there are a couple of other options we can use like personal care products. There's there's different suites of parameters that labs can run that will help us source the particular parameter that we're looking for, waste, or whether it's bacteria. We can source nitrate. We can use stabilized atop analysis for that. Okay. I'm gonna have to talk to our staff, let Mr. Lent tell me what recommendations we're going to do with this information. But you also mentioned that we're monitoring the outflow and that we should be looking at the point source or you didn't say point source but you said inflow correct. And are we weak in that and monitoring that? So one of the things that we've been talking about over the past couple of years is the potential of implementing, basically, water level indicators at the lakes that were specifically interested in, which will give us some idea of how much water is moving in the system and then out over the structure. So that tells us, you know, depending on what stage the pond is, gives us some idea of where it is in relation to the outfall structure. So that gives us some idea of volume discharged from these ponds. And with concentration and volume, we get mass. And that's how we manage what's coming in. What's coming in is kind of difficult, because you can't, there's no way to manage every input. So, but there's one way we could do that. We could look at it from a model perspective of a given year, use the actual site-specific data that we're getting as part of the Morings Bay Projects. This is an example. So we've got an active project in Morings Bay where we're looking at the concentration of water flowing into these stone water lakes. So if we can look at the site-specific concentration of what's coming into the lakes, then we've got a pretty good idea of what kind of mass once we combine that with the modeled flow. That makes sense? Yes. So that swan lake is not a lake that you've been monitoring or that was an R-Lake, no, but I think we have some data on that as well. So that can be looked at. Okay. Thank you for your presentation. I have a council member Petronoff. Thank you for your presentation. Appreciate you being here today. This is a discussion on water quality and these lakes are manmade so they're going to they are part of the design as you had said and not subject to the design as you had said. And that subject to the standards we would normally see. But I'm wondering, we added the NCH lake. But some of the lakes were excluded like the Naples Beach Club has several lakes that I have never, I couldn't find any test data in. that the government has been trying to do that. I think that the community club has several lakes that I have never I couldn't find any test data in. Is there a reason why they have never been tested? And should they be? Since they go out to the Gulf of Mexico. Good morning, Christopher Leigh Hart, streets and storm the lakes that you're referencing, there are a number of privately owned lakes in the city. And so when this sampling plan was developed, I believe that the things that we focused on were lakes that were tied into our storm water system and were in some way contributing to downstream waters. So the lakes that you're referencing, I believe, are either not connected or privately owned and not maintained by the city. So there's a number of them that just aren't contributing to that downstream watershed. And therefore the data isn't as relevant as the other ones that we focused on. So they do not contribute to, it does not flow out to the Gulf of Mexico. There are a number of lakes that you're referencing. And if you want, I can give you a list of those that are just kind of disconnected from our storm water system. And the water that flows into them stays on site. If I could Bob Littleton, right now, I don't think they're directly connected to the outfalls going to the Gulf. But as part of the overall design for those lakes, they will contribute to the water going into our stormwater system. So we might want to think about possibly, you know, we have no idea what's in them. And it's a golf course that you probably use as a lot of pesticides and fertilizers to see what we are going to get. Right, and there are other golf courses, mornings, country club. I'm not sure how their storm water system works or how their lakes are connected to our storm water system. But if they are part of their storm water system, they probably come to our storm water system also. Okay, All right. And then a product called the micro-lift product that was, the big test that was, I guess it's still in place. One of the big questions that I was hoping this day to would answer is given the product is cheaper than other methods and dredging, did it work? Should we be using microlift everywhere or did it not work? The test has been out there for a couple years and I understand Ian might have made the test results questionable. But do you have recommendations on whether or not this thing at some point we have to say it worked or it didn't and we should invest or we should not invest. That's done through another study and we couldn't get the everything put together summer break to be able to provide a full report on that. But this report doesn't include any of that in the information. Okay, I guess you know we see the statistics from the lakes that are treated. Right. At least it's one like we just I just don't know what to you know is it the microlifters? It's something else? And then one thing that, hoping the recommendations will be from staff or from you would be focusing on upstream impacts. We can get as pristine as we want in the city. We have giant receiving bodies that are impaired, sort of like garbage in, to our system. That would include Gordon River, Helderburg Creek, Golden Gate Canal. Do we have, or I would like to put a plan together to address those inputs that are coming into the city? And do you have any thoughts around it? Do you get any reporting from the county on what they are sending to us? We do some of our own water quality monitoring in Naples Bay. Our natural resources group is here, Natalie Hardman and Katie Lackin enter here. I don't know if they'd care to come up and comment on that at this time. And really, it's really the feeders of Gordon River, Heldaburt Creek and Golden Gate Canal. Hold them in Creek, yeah. And unless I'm missing something, some other likes, but they seem messy and I've heard from a lot of boaters that this is much larger than what we are doing in our ponds. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. And then, natural resources. This is much larger than what we are doing in our ponds. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning, Locke and then Natural Resources. You're absolutely correct that we need to look at the bigger watershed and what's coming in through Hall of Mcreee, Rock Creek. The county has an extensive, I'll say, fresh water testing system that they do. And then we test the esterine portion of that are the downstream receiving water bodies. So the county is a key partner with the city in this and we work closely with the pollution control department that if they identify something in rock creek that's a high hit for bacteria, for example, and they do any source tracking or just investigation of where the source is coming from. They will share their determinations with us. So we keep an open line of communication as to what they're seeing upstream, and then of course our testing is available to them. And are you satisfied that they're maintaining those inputs to our system in a manner that the city of Naples would want? I believe there's always room for improvement from the upstream urban areas, the golf courses. There are a lot of inputs that come in through these tributaries and through the Golngay Canal. So the county's program is very robust in what they test and where they test. But in terms of the inputs coming into the tributaries, there's always room for improvements from these developments. I would like to see it some meeting in the future, what those inputs are that we're receiving from those bodies, and what the results are of bacterial nutrients and the like, just to see what we're getting and what we have to clean. Another item that when reading through this was, the bioswale piece and the recommendation on bioswales. I read a lot this weekend from Virginia Tech and even from our own state on where we put swales and where we don't. And my understanding is the bottom of the swale should be at least two feet or I guess in our ordinances it's 18 inches above the seasonal high water table. Otherwise you don't get the filtration and you get standing water. Would you say that's correct? Yes, like the groundwater table. The groundwater table. Okay, so which kind of makes me think maybe one size doesn't fit all for us and we should not be swaling in areas where the high water table is so high that it doesn't fit all for us and we should not be swaling in areas where the high water table is so high that it doesn't do proper filtration and we leave standing water. I'm thinking of 17 in aqua and shores and maybe we need something different there or we need a different gutter system to bring it out to the storm water and address flooding because these things really function as two things. One is filtration second is for flooding. And so I think we probably like for staff to look at, you know, the not a one size fits all solution that you're probably already doing anyway. Those are my... I'm identifying East West trends and the bacterial Enterococci and E. coli. You would mean mentioned that you could track it down possibly to human waste from a septic tank or from a split line. Have you identified or mapped out any trends going east-west or doing the pattern from lake to lake that there may be an issue? from lake to lake that there may be an issue? Not specifically. We've been looking at the lakes individually, but that's something we could potentially look at in the future. OK. Because it goes, there seems to be a pattern around alligator lake, South Lake, the North Lake, and then heading more east on the bacterial level. And it could be as I don't think there's any septics out there. So this can directionally look for, do we have any problems with any of our sewer lines? OK. So I don't know if that analysis was done, but I hope it has been done. Thank you. Thank you, Councillorwoman Petronoff for those questions. I will also add that we want to look at the Naples Airport is taking in the water from a lot of the county and then that water goes directly to the bay. This should be something we're looking at, especially with the NAA wanting to address those issues and they are through their storm water pond. But I think it is something that we need to look at because it ties in with exactly what you're saying. I'll finish questions and then I'll let you tell us where we're headed and what you think. So thank you. I have Council Member Christmas. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you for your presentation. Could you go back to, I think it's by your Council, slide 15, this sort of summary table that you had. Yeah, that's it right there. So over the last period of years, we have invested in restoring four lakes here and Naples by my count. East Lake Spring Lake which I think is you're using the nomenclature of cove pump because 11 according to the map you had a spring lake Is that is that the same as spring like? Cove pump station is downstream of East Lake in the Stormwater basin in that area. Well, in all the charts, most of the charts spring lake isn't listed. It's not listed in this chart. I'll just point that out. But we've invested in East Lake, Spring Lake, what I call Flishman Lake, which I guess is 19, right? The 15th Avenue North Lake is in Flishman Lake. And then Lake Man 19, right? The 15th Avenue North Lake is in that splatement lake. Yes. And then Lake Manor, right? So we've cleaned up poor lakes. And so, and you look at the, unfortunately, spring lake isn't included on this chart apparently. That may mean that there wasn't a significant trend. So, yeah. The only the stations and parameters that were significant are listed here. So, and that kind of gets at my point, point of my question is, it would be important, I think, for us to understand whether what we've done in terms of investing and restoration of these lakes has made a difference. And of course, these trend numbers you have here are, I gather, over an eight or nine year period, right? So that preceded some of the restoration. Yeah, it's a pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty. And so I just wanted to make that point and also ask the question because I think as we face decisions on restoration of lakes going forward and there will be different approaches on different lakes in my opinion. I don't think it's one approach. Our history has been that we've approached it in different ways from a technology standpoint. It begs the question, what results have we gotten from these past investments? So I don't know how that should be done. Lake Manor is probably six or seven years old now in terms of the work was done there, Fleishman and Spring Lake and East Lake is two or three years old. Come in on that from either staff or from Arkansas. What I'm coming in on is from a volumetric standpoint. I mean there was a lot of material removed from those lakes. from a volumetric standpoint. I mean, there was a lot of material removed from those lakes. The more volume you have in those lakes and the deeper the lakes are, the more opportunity for material to settle out and not wash directly out of the lake into the downstream collection system. I don't know if I can speak specifically about changes in concentration because I think there's a lot of things that influence changes in concentration. Mount Rainfall, you know when we're looking at doing our mass loading, you've got to have water in, you always have some level of water going out, but you have to have water coming in to be able to collect that to calculate what the mass loading is. So that's what was being mentioned is if we had these lake level monitors in the lakes and we see an increase in the lake level, that means there's water coming into the lake from some source. And it would probably be from the stormwater collection system. So that would be a time to go out and collect water coming in and going out. So specifically to the lakes that have been cleaned, you know, Chris may be able to explain a little bit better on what the concentrations actually mean. But as far as removing the muck and sand and material on the bottom of the lakes, you are getting a benefit from that. Chris, you want to add any? Yeah, I think that the, you know, like Lance was saying, you've got a pretty good number of years worth of data here. So it's gonna take a little bit of time for the data to catch up. You've got years and years of the system kind of being taxed and in bad shape. Some of these lakes are between 70 and 90 years old. So they're going to have quite a bit of material on the bottom. I think that given these projects a chance to kind of show out and catch up, the glass share I came to you with some of those annual geometric means. And you could see that even in the short period of time, we were seeing a pretty significant decrease in some of the restored lakes with respect to that short term geometric mean. So I think that we are seeing some real results. I think that it doesn't quite bear out when you look at the data as a whole. But if you want us to, we can kind of bring some of those shorter term numbers to you so that you can see, you know, that drastic reduction. Yeah, I think it would be helpful in future presentations with, again, with respect to likes that we made what we think our improvements to. I mean, you look at this, and as you point out, Lance, this is only showing significant increases or decreases. But Lake Manor, two significant decreases for two parameters and obviously, parent lake, for all the other parameters, there's not either a significant increase or decrease for Fleischmann Lake. It's all positive. East Lake is more than Miss Bac, Mix Bag, and we don't have that apparently in spring lake, there's nothing significant one way or another. You know, I believe Lake Suzanne is on our list as one of the next lakes. It is. And you look at this, and most of the parameters are significantly decreasing, even before we do anything to it. So, you know, makes you that. Why ask the logical question, well, what are we going to be doing there if things are improving without us giving it any attention? Keep in mind that it doesn't necessarily mean it's low concentration, right? It could be high concentration, just getting a little bit low. That's a good point, yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah, okay. And then my other question or comment really is referring, just commenting on one of the points that Councilman Petrono brought up about point pollution and so on. You know, all of our water bodies are impaired. I mean, the receiving water bodies. We know that they're impaired around multiple parameters. The mooring's bay and Gordon River and Naples Bay. When we heard from, we should, I'm just recalling that we heard not long ago from a gentleman Mr. Wardahoff, an engineer who came and he's presented also to the CAC recently. His hypothesis is that the main culprit in impaired water, in the water bodies that we have that I just mentioned, is the failure of multiple wastewater treatment plants and call your county to use advanced technology and And it affects the dissolved oxygen levels and that is the main culprit So my only point is you know that's there there are many possible causes of our water quality problems and multiple theories as to what are the what are the causes or the main causes. There's no consensus, which I wish there was more consensus and then therefore based on that consensus action occurring and that action has to occur as you point out at the county regional level and it's not happening now. Thank you. Thank you. I have council member Penman. Thank you very much. This is rather extensive and we're very glad to have it to be perfectly honest with you. There's a lot of data here. I'm, this is rather extensive and we're very glad to have it to be perfectly honest with you. There's a lot of data here. I'm just excellent questions on the part of my colleagues. One of the things that was of interest to me were spikes at what appeared to me to be odd times of the year, January, February, March. At some point in time, it would be interesting to me to know why we would get those spikes To misslack and I think it's interesting and important that the County is doing the testing that it's doing What I would be interested in knowing is what if there are problems? What are their plans for mitigation and I'd like to know what the DEP reports are relative to what we believe are probably point source solution for us. What the DEP is requiring of the county relative to any kind of mitigation relative to those water bodies. Otherwise it seems to me we have sort of a Sisyphean situation happening here if we don't treat the source. I'm also interested in the micro-lift product or whatever, you know, I don't think that's the generic name for it. I would appreciate, and if it's all right with my colleagues, I'd appreciate a good discussion and perhaps argument for either using it or not using it. I think it would save us a lot of money. I assume Swan Lake certainly looks good from an amateur standpoint. I don't know what's going on down at the bottom. I don't know if, frankly, if that is, immediately are reading a lot of the gunk that's down there. And if so, is it reducing all the nutrients that are in the gunk? But I'd like to see a good discussion about that. It sure would save us a lot of money. And again, if we don't, I'm assuming if we don't solve what they were, the point source is, again, it's a phen if we think we're going to treat the lakes. So to me point source pollution is critically important and what is that source and what are the nutrients that are in that source. The other thing were the spikes at odd times of the year. You know we had some big spikes in January and February. It's the dry season, you know, to an amateur that makes no sense. So if we could have that explained to us that would be interesting. Yes sir. I, I could take that one great So generally what happens in the winter and the dry season is that the inputs stop entering the water bodies Right, so what happens is the water body becomes more and more concentrated as the volume starts to decrease Then that triggers the chlorophyll A the clippers triggers trigger the algal growth and the chlorophyll A and brings all the nutrients up into the water column. So that's generally what happens in dry season. Thank you. That's a typical pattern we see in Florida. Thank you. Simple answer. Thank you. Makes perfect sense. Anyway, thank you very much. I'm delighted with all this information. This was money well spent in my opinion. Thank you. Thank you. I have a council member, Kramer. Thanks very much everybody. Again great information. Just it. I'm just wondering for staff. We're talking about the groundwater and swales. You only know your own experience. Is there any place in the city where we hit groundwater at three feet? Possibly, I mean it would depend on the time of year and specifically the wet season and to your point That's when we need our swales to do What they do as far as collecting water and holding water. I'm not familiar with groundwater levels in certain areas. We would have to go out and do some hand wells to see what the water levels are. And some of those more than likely will be affected by tide. Specifically, 17th Avenue. I mean, we go out and do some hand-arguing and see what the water level is at high tide and see how that's affected by 18 inches. That's exactly what I was thinking. I live on a mountain there, the north of the high school, it's 12 feet. So we don't have that issue. And then, just an observation, we we talked about sources I keep my boat about As far north as you can keep it on the Gordon River and still be in the city and when it's coming over spillway I've never yet and and it gets funky it's sketchy to park your boat because tides coming in but it's rising But it's still water's moving in different ways just gets weird. I've never seen water come pouring in when they open them and it gets clearer I've never seen that component when they open them and it get clearer. I've never seen that. Now maybe it's happened but I'd like to be there that day. Go fish it or something. Yeah, just for the, just that's anecdotal. Doesn't mean anything but that's my point of reference. Thanks. Okay, thank you. I have a council member Barton. Just a quick clarification on Bob, we've got the biological treatment of was this one like that we've got a report coming on that. It's correct. We're going to do that in August or whatever sometime near future. But that report's been done by the professor in South Florida. Is that correct? We have that or do we not have that? Say that again. The third party report that we were waiting for. We have the third party evaluation of the portions of the overall report that we have. We just have not been able to get the final report to a level, to a level that we want to present it to you, that makes it difficult. So that's still a working progress? That to present it to you. That makes it easier. So that's still a work in progress. That's still a work in progress. But that's what we're looking forward to seeing here in the very near future so that we can start to have that discussion and analyze that data to determine if that is a way to move forward and make sense as far as treating these legs versus what we have been doing. Correct. Okay. I just wanted some clarification there. Thanks. Yes. Thank you. I have Vice Mayor. Yeah. Thank you Madam Mayor. So I'm going on my second term now on City Council. And many of you that are just starting your first term you're going to hopefully enjoy a second term as well. When I started these 22 lakes I've seen reports and we can go back and look these up, but they were in pretty bad shape. So stormwater lakes can get out of hand if they're not properly maintained. What we're discussing here is stormwater quality, right? Not stormwater volume, right? Right. We're talking about stormwater quality, the? Not storm water volume, correct. Right. We're talking about storm water quality, the quality of the water. This past week, of course, we saw storm water volume issues, right? So water quality many several years ago when I first started was not really what we wanted. And my question is this, it's not to be answered now. I don't want to get in the weeds on it because we simply don't have the time. But what I hope to have through the subject matter experts, and that's you, and you're a firm. What needs to be done? When does it need to be done? When does it need to be done? And what is the estimated expense in making sure the 22 stormwater lakes do not become an environmental obstacle for our city? Now, you think that's a pretty simple question. But over the years, we have not calenderized what needs to be done to these lakes, and then we haven't done it. It's plain and simple. Anybody knows if you wanna take care of something, you need to have a plan and you need to execute it. And I'm not blaming the city staff. It's our fault. It's the elected officials having the will to make sure that budgeted dollars are put forward to do exactly this. What needs to be done? When does it need to be done? And what is the estimated expense? That's where the buck stops with me. So we're measuring, and hopefully what gets measured, it's done in terms of making sure that we continue these trends on significantly decreasing on the nutrients, the chlorophyll, the bacteria. But I appreciate all your work, make no mistake about it. But now for us, Mr. City Manager and for our staff is making sure that we have this in a budget to take care of this. Let's don't let it get away from us again. And I hope that's what this is all about. Thank you Madam Mayor. Mayor can I I want to respectfully respond to the Vice Mayor's comments because I don't want to leave this conversation in a leave anybody watching this meeting now or in the future, thinking about things and what I think is a misleading way because this council over the last three or four years, really particularly the last two or three with the participation and support of everybody who was on council at that time, including the vice mayor, developed a five-year plan for cleaning up our high priority stormwater lakes. And that's how the ones I just mentioned a little bit ago were addressed. And we now have in the current year budget three lakes, like, devils like and one other that are in the budget and being addressed. And if you look at, there is a, I believe it's a five-year plan that looks ahead and says, here are the lakes we're going to address each year going forward, we'll have to find the money to pay for it, of course. But so my point is that I think this council has stepped up and said we're going to do something about this and try to do it in a methodical way and we have to keep doing that. And you know, we've done it together and the vice mayor has been a big part of that. I've heard him talk about it many times and a major voice for support of this. So again, vice mayor, I'm not being critical. I'm just trying to, you know, kind of set properly the, you know, where we are and where we want to go and not leave people with a sense that somehow we just not have a paying attention to this. So yeah, I just want to say so that's what I want to ask Mr. Lienhart because he is our professional. He is the one that will be guiding us through the plans and where we're going. And so I really would like to hear from you on what this information and what we have been doing. We know that we haven't even touched the beginning of a five-year plan because we had the setback from the hurricane, even though it looks like we're doing better. That's what's interesting to me is what you're thinking and where we're going. And the second part of that is making sure that it is our priority. And if it is our priority, we have to be willing and able to make sure we give Mr. Young that priority on the list because we have our budget coming up and it's most important that we pay attention to our priorities. Mr. Leigh Hart. Before Chris answers, I just wanted to kind of give an update where we are on the five-year plan. You'll notice on your council agenda for Wednesday we've got a ward of contract to do the next set of lakes. That's North Lake and South Lake. Then we have to we're hopefully going to start design soon for the next three lakes, lakes who's being one of those. So we are paying attention to what our plan is going forward. What I want to mention about the water quality report, and Chris has a lot more of a subject matter expert than I am on it, but you've mentioned several things. This water quality report is going to be a living thing. The more information we collect, it's going to bring up more questions from you and from us or we need to look at this, when we need to look at this. But so there's going to be a lot more information to come just by what we know now and where we need to think we're going. Source tracking, you know, we've had a lot of conversations on source tracking, bacteria testing upstream, mass balance. You know, when you're talking about mass balance on a system, it's what you can and can't control. Now it's become a machine. What goes in, what does the machine do, and what falls out of it? Keep in mind? These are machines that we have basically no control over we can't change valves or tweet things to make things go up and down like in a wastewater Treatment plant or a water treatment plant We've got controls over that system when we're talking about lakes We're talking about natural systems if we can control what comes in as far as a mass loading, we can do that. But actually finding where some source of bacteria or nutrients are is going to be hit or miss because it's going to depend on flow coming into it. If we get a hit on a bacteria on a certain part of the collected system, that's what gives us an idea of where we need to start searching and take additional samples. Are those future samples going to be representative of the first sample we've taken? It's going to take a lot of time and a lot of testing to actually put fingers on things. So I want to manage what the expectations are, but in my observation and the level of data that we're collecting we're off to a very good start and we've got history on it. So you you know we can look at what the water quality has been over the past two years of lakes that we've done maintenance on, dredging. That's a good place to start. But then set that aside and look at the overall information. So sorry about rambling, but just wanted to get some of my thoughts across. Chris, do you have any? Yeah, so I need the mission. Out of this this type of work that we're doing here, you know, as Lance said, it's a pretty robust sampling program that we have. We have a lot of lakes in the city and a lot of them are contributing to downstream water bodies. The Florida Department of Environmental Protection does give us impairments on those water bodies if we're seeing a lot of water come out of them. That's not quite meeting their standards. So a report like this does a good job of kind of showing us where we can do a little bit better, where we can come up with some new ideas, throw some new technology at things, and try to make it so that we're putting out the best product that we can, and that's clean water. I think that as Lance alluded to it too, as well, there's a lot of different capital projects that we could start looking at, including based on this report. There's really good information here on where we could allocate some resources to do some source tracking, to do some input output type of monitoring and focus on areas that could be a little bit more problematic. So yeah, I'm proud of this report. I think that we're doing good work. Having this long-term trend data as well, like Bob said, this is gonna be a living thing going forward. Someone 20, 30, 40 years from now, is gonna be looking at this. So it's really important to me. I'm proud of it. And I think we should keep working hard to clean up the water. Thank you. And I think that's something that we must come back with a workshop in knowing where we're headed and the things that maybe Mr. Lynn Hart and adding to our five year plan and the changes we might have to make is we move forward to the contracts of testing. I don't even, in fact, where are we with our contract and our testing? Is that annual? We just renewed those as far as our library of CCNA engineering firms. So I think we're on a new five year contract. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Councilmember Petronoff. I just had one quick thing to add is that we're going to be asked to take taxpayer money. I think it's 2 million, 2.0 million for cleaning up the next set of lakes. And the big question in my mind is, you know, is the silver bullet of the micro-lift product? Because it's one-tenth of the cost. Should we not spend a two million and spend 200,000 instead because it works just as well? That's a big question in my mind. Thank you. Okay. Vice mayor and then. Yeah, just a wrap up and I appreciated Councilman Christman's comments. He's right. We've worked really hard. I think Councilwoman, I want to draw a blank. I'm sorry. Peneman, Councilwoman Peneman has been part of this as well. When she previously served on council. So we've done a lot of work to the staff included to come up with some of these metrics that are heading the right direction. So it's not by accident. My comments, we all know how government works, right? There are hard times that come and we've got some huge projects that are before the city now Not only just projects, but things to do to money spent to take care of people so as my My words are meant to encourage this council and future councils to stay the course. Have the plan. We talked about this five year plan, but it's important that we stay focused on that because I've seen a time where we didn't have results like this. So that's really it. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Bitterschwar. Thank you, Mayor. Just a wrap up. I do want to thank Councillor Loh you. Thank you. Mr. Bitterschwar. Thank you, Mayor. Just to wrap up, I do want to thank Councillor Lennon and thank staff. Our team is very passionate about this subject matter. And it shows inequality of the work that they do. Picking up on the item that's on your agenda for Wednesday, there is taxpayer money involved in that via the state. I want to remind you all that we have been very aggressive at the staff level in seeking external funding to fund some of these very important water projects. And this is one of those projects on your agenda on Wednesday that is mostly, if not completely funded by state dollars. So I just wanted to point that out for the record, and I thank everyone involved today. Okay, I want to thank you, Mr. Lambert, for your talent, your time and your efforts in getting us far more educated on what we need to do to address our stormwater lakes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Linnhardt and Mr. Minotin. So that concludes for C, our annual stormwater lake and pump station report, going to 4D. Great, thank you, Mayor. 4D is an update that we'd like to provide you on the design and permitting for the permanent restoration of our beach ends. As you all know, this has been a two-phase exercise post-e-in to get our beaches accessible by the public. Phase 1 was getting these access points safe and accessible and then phase two is the permanent restoration that provided an environment and access that was reflective of the quality that we expect here to city of Naples, everything from furniture to signage and so on and so forth. So chat is here today to provide an update on where we're at. We will be looking for final feedback from you all today as the public is very anxious and so are we to get the design finalized while we're on break and out to bid so we can be asking, so we can be back before you awarding a contract as soon as you're back from break or shortly thereafter. So with that, I'll turn it over to Chad and we'll be ready to answer questions after he's done. Thanks. Good morning. Good morning, Chad Merritt, Parks Recreation Facilities Director. Thank you for allowing me to do another update on these public beach accesses. As Jay has mentioned, we've worked really hard with our consultants and Grady Miner has been great. And when you look at 27 public beach accesses completely reconstructed. It's not an easy task as it may sound. So let's see. as it may sound. Let's see. Use keyboard. Not that we need to have a relive the what we were facing, but this is again, pictures say a thousand words. This gives you a reminder of where we were at say a thousand words, this gives you a reminder of where we were at after the storm. And you can see it was leveled. There was nothing really left. There was a lot of debris. You can see bike racks on the ground that had footings and so on. So we were faced and continue to be faced with a lot of damage to the repair. And this is 15th and 18th 15th Avenue South definitely was one of the hardest hit if you haven't been the 15th and you want to see it live and go check it out but we've done everything we can just to provide excuse me an area for the public to be able to go and access some of these and some of them have been very difficult to do anything to where we can fill confident that it's safe for public use. The recovery and a lot of the work that's been done this is just pictures showing you some of the things that we've done to restore these accesses and the work that's been put in, we've been able to really backfill, if you look on the left hand side, that's an example of, I think that was 18th Avenue South, where we had to bring in, I think, four, was it four tandem loads? Four tandem loads of sand, one access. And that's hauling from a, it has to be compatible. So this isn't, you know, when you look at having to backfill, it's a pretty substantial amount of sand that has to be brought in some of these areas. This was Laudermelt Park. This is a lot of work that we've had to put in and we've just recently had the lot of milk park landscape project, which will finalize everything at a lot of milk park and that will move us on. And so we continue again, even though it's not these 27, we're still continuously working on these BJA accesses. Here's a list. This is a similar list that you've seen in the past, but this shows you the ones that Grady Minor is currently working on. Here's the list down the leftist talks about some of the things that they're working on, which is landscape vegetation, irrigation, hardscape, wooden walkovers, ADA mats, concrete walkways, rent stations, which includes water fountains, permanent signage, lighting, other items, your hardscape, includes the benches, trash cans, bike racks, and some of the other items that were lost in the storm. So we put together this matrix. This is kind of our new working document. This to explain there is a minor typo there on the X. X means that the BCH access has it, but it's not there, meaning the storm took it away, and it has not been restored. So if you see an X in here, that's what that means. And asterisk is good. That means that it's been restored. When we do the reconstruction, some of those things are going to have to be finagled because we've gotten them just where it can be utilized. But this is a on the left hand side shows open. Yes, it means it's open while for yes and you can see that right now we have three of them that are not open, which is third avenue north. And actually, it should be third avenue south, I apologize. Third avenue south, and we've got 16th, and then Aberlty Point, which is one that's being worked on right now in permitting with, through Aberlty Point condominiums. right now and permitting with through Admiralty Point condominiums. As we get this kind of updated and again this is working, this will be a document that you will see frequent. So if you see that asterisk, that means that's things that we've fixed and we've been able to resolve. Bences, you're not going to see that until after the project's complete. So we want to last things that's put in as the benches. We're working through and we'll talk about the signage and things here in a second. 90% plans. That's where we're at. We've reviewed them. We've requested revisions through Grady Minor. They're working through some items. We've had to make some adjustments, minor adjustments to landscaping this time. So we're there, like I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. The OPCs have to be updated once we get everything configured and 90% planned. So I'll have an updated OPC. The last one was approximately 1.6 million as what it was estimated. Some of the focus again, we talked about what they're looking at and the hard scape items and backfill and et cetera. This was the walkways, so we were gonna replace the paper walkways which did not do well And you've heard me say that a thousand times so there's a thousand one The walkways that we agreed to was gonna have the aggregate on the outside So it has a little bit of a not just plain Sidewalks. It's got a It's a little aesthetically pleasing as what we were going for It's got a little aesthetically pleasing as what we were going for. ADA mats, we've looked at some locations and I'll talk about locations in a second. We put this in the plans and it doesn't necessarily mean that we've got to put it on everyone, but what we do try to do is if we can enhance the access to the beaches anywhere that we can, we wanted to take this opportunity. Those walkways, they can range from $60 to $90,000 and they take a lot more permitting. And they get damaged if you hadn't seen one of those, I can show you one of those too. But we just felt this was an opportunity to pick some locations and put the ADA mats in here. So if we decide we want to do it at one of these accesses in the future, we've got the plans we can go and do the permitting. Currently this list because we went through and reviewed 90% plans after I created this list. So there's one adjustment on here. But this is what we're recommending the ADA sites to be. Broad Avenue South would actually be removed and 11th Avenue South is added. These are locations that had either wooden walkovers and we recommended that we put them back. Fourth Avenue, south is actually one that we wanted to look to revitalize and put that ADA mat in as well. The pier, the mats out, a lot of milk park, the mats out as well. Benches, I know we talked back and forth about the benches. I feel like maybe a shift in trying to see, again, there's not a bench that exists that's not going to be damaged by the storm. This one in particular, we're looking at the ones that we currently have and how they're faring in the heat and the weather and they're really starting to fade and I'm seeing a lot of breaking on the cross members and that's a little concerning, consider some of those are not that old. So it may be an opportunity shift. I think these are a little cleaner look. You've got the stone, which is a natural look, which is what we talked about last time is trying to keep something that looked natural. And these, I feel like they may hold up a little better. One thing's for sure is they will not float away. They way I think was it six or six hundred pounds a piece. Yeah so they're not going anywhere. Well I shouldn't say that but they it's gonna be harder than what we had before. The rule sign this was what we agreed to which has got the sunset look which is what our beaches are known for. We have been working with the language, so what you see here is just a mock language. Please don't look at this and think this is going to be the final. We work with beach patrol, we work with code enforcement, fire, and you know, Jay's even seen the mock up. So we'll have the rules. It'll be a lot more enhanced and we'll have a lot more than what existed prior to and along with some updates which includes the no smoking. The other ad as we did put you see on the right hand side we added the number of the BCH access of each one of them. We'll have a number that will be assigned and that will be put on the website so everybody knows what number it is as well as shared with the emergency responders. Bicracks, not a whole lot to really talk, we'll go with the black bike racks which is consistent with what we've been putting in. Landscaping, here's a picture of a lot of landscaping that we've really focused on. Trying to make sure we don't put a whole lot of, or any invasives in here. One thing that, if you look at this picture, I'll share this as an example. This is a, I always call it a DOT guard rail that you see that existed prior to the storm. Instead of going back with that, we've looked at installing the ballers. It's a little cleaner look. We feel like this will also make things, I don't know if they'll hold up better or not. But the ones on the left, which are B2, we've done a little research, and those should hold up a little bit better with salt conditions. So that's more likely the route we're going to go. It'll be again a little cleaner look than what you have with that metal guardrail that goes across. So kind of examples. You can see here. Here's where the ballards, where we are looking to put the ballards, this gives you an example of what we've done with the accesses. Here's the concrete area. Here's the bike racks that you see that are in line here. Vegetation down here. We wanted to install the vegetation along the seawall, which was there before. You can see on the other side of those guard rails so we wanted to make sure things like that were restored because they're very important from the sea turtle aspect and as well as we want to make sure that we've got vegetation to hold in the sand and whatnot. Night to have a new south, another example, you can see where ballards were being used, try to prevent cars from driving through. We don't want any incidents like that, but you can see how we've came in. You've got a bench here, a bench here. This mouse is not, you've got a bench here, a bench here. This mouse is not. You've got the bike racks and some vegetation, so again, really clean look, and very consistent with what we've tried to capture in all these designs here. You've got the concrete bike racks. You've got this particular one as it shows the ADA mat, because this was one of it shows the ADA map because this was one of the sites that we wanted to put it in. But the vegetation here, we shifted some of the vegetation around because we didn't want it growing into the walkways. Things like that when we looked at these designs that we made some alterations to. This is another seventh avenue south you can see where the benches are set up here. We tried to count how many, we went to our Excel sheet, figured out how many memorial benches we had and we tried to keep that number at each access so that we can restore those memorial plaques because if you get asked the question that's what we're doing. Promise they're going to go back. They just can't go back right now because they don't have anywhere to attach them and they can't just sit and sand. So we will get to them. We just ask people to be patient with us and we'll we'll provide them an area soon. Fourth avenue again just showing you So, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I'm sorry. So, I conducive to someone who has a disability and it doesn't meet the code when it comes to ADA. So that's why you see some of these areas expanded. We did try to reduce as much concrete as we could, but we also wanted to have it so that it was there to allow people to access it. This one in particular, I put this one in because you see the observation deck, which this was an ADA observation deck. So that is still there. It's going to be there. Excuse me, it's not still there because it's gone. But we plan to put that back in the ADA map, which will actually make this even more ADA accessible or ADA friendly, I should say. or ADA friendly, I should say. Fourth Avenue North, another example. And you know, if you want me to go back to these, I'm not, I provided these more of an example. I didn't figure that I'd have time to go through 27 with you all. So this is kind of a taste of the different ones. Here's Vodato. Vodato is one that we actually were working on prior to the storm as well. So we kind of had plans already put together anyways before the storm came in and completely wiped out everything. So you can kind of see the area in here. And talking about the estimated time line. So we anticipate once the revisions are made, that we would be complete with 90% plans with all of our revisions by the end of this month, which is not very far. Construction bid documents will be work known. We try to get those out as soon as possible. My goal, I'd really like to see it in July, but I know that there's a lot of things that are in the works right now, and we'll work through whatever we need to to try to get them out, but that's also pending that everything is good. Now, we are, we will be working with natural resources with permitting and trying to work through that. I don't anticipate permitting being a huge deal because of the access and what Natalie has as far as, I don't know if she's, if she's able to, if you want her to speak on it, she can. But the, you know, we'll work with her. And I think she's got a little bit of flexibility with FDEP in regards to permitting. I'll turn this over to Bob. This is the five beach ins that Bob's currently working on. Good morning. Thanks, Chad. Bob Middleton Public Works. The five beach ins, the reason that these were separated out from the work that Community Services Parks and Parkways was doing is because of the permitting required to put those back in shape. Those five beaches had a seawall or a revetment that was discovered once the sand was removed after the hurricane. We had all of the beach ins evaluated by Humiston Moore to give us an idea of what it took to repair and restore these beach ins. It was found that these five beach ins and they are North Lake, Third Avenue South, 14th Avenue South, 15th Avenue South, and 16th Avenue South required more extensive design because of the seawalls needed to be replaced. What's involved in that is we have to do a permit to DEP to be able to replace those revetments or those retaining walls on the beach. There are some circumstances where we had to hire a separate attorney to assist with permitting those beach ins because of we were going to be asking for a variance for a section not to be included in the permit required for permit. I don't know all the details of that but there was a need to have a variance done requested through some of the current DEP regulations right now. Apparently this is a normal thing to do but it needs to be done. In talking with our consultant Brett Moore of the five we may not need to request variances for all five it may be three that we have to do. My point is it will save time. Right now at the end of this month we will be at a 50% design on the five PGMs. Our timetable is by August we will be at 90% design and at that time we will submit applications to DEP along with the 90% plans to obtain permits. And then after we get the permitting back we will evaluate what the permit requirements are. You need to make changes to the plans or we will stamp those as 100% plans. Being optimistic, the permitting through the EPs probably three months. I'm not sure if there's a way we can accelerate that, but now we're looking towards the end of the year with construction after bidding is gonna be the first quarter of 2025 to get these five beach ends complete. And that's my update for those five beach ends. So just again, showed a couple of pictures of the ones that he's talking about and the access that we've been able to provide access to a majority of these 14th Avenue South. He's working at the Seawall area and I'm working at Landscape inside so you'll see that on both our list right now because he's working one item and I'm working another item. 15th again this is 15th Avenue, this is one that we've had to remove a lot of that stuff that you see there, debris, and then 16th, which has had the suspended curb, which is still very, very odd. I don't know if I've ever seen that before, but that's kind of where we're at right now with the beach access. I do have a great reminder here if we need to ask any questions or answer any questions and detail about the design as well as some other additional supporting staff. So thank you for your report and thank you for your time and going over this. The community has expressed their frustration in these beaches and it makes sense now on the details that we have that we have to put back seawalls. Several things though if we don't have time we need to make sure that each council member understands what those details are because they're expecting for those beaches to go back the way they were. And if we aren't, I don't want to get to 90% and actually implementing these plans in the community, go wait a minute. Why aren't we doing the walkovers, the wooden walkovers, and why are we keeping it flat? And I think the materials are going to be extremely important. It's very hard to tell from the materials that were given, whether there'll be, you know, some areas had more shade than others. There were trees that were big and bloom, whether those will be put back. And I'm just really concerned about the details of these beacions and what they're going to look like and making sure that we manage the expectations of everyone. I don't want to get to that point where because I'm concerned and in details it's the details that we really have to make sure we drill into and there are 11 areas now that will be adding mats and did you what did you say the cost of those mats were? Yeah can I jump in and just make a couple of comments what Chad said there are 11 areas identified for future adding mats You say the cost of those mats were? Yeah, can I jump in and just make a couple of comments. What Chad said, there are 11 areas identified for future adding mats. There, you know, the design is there. It doesn't mean we're adding 11 mats right now. But let me address your foundational concerns and concerns of the community. I think we learned some things from Ian and there were some guidance provided by Council in doing this design. It's not going to look exactly like it did pre-ean because a lot of things are gone. The vegetation is gone and one of the things that we heard is we like the vista. Can we preserve a more open view? So if the expectation is to have a more closed off look pre and that's not what we're attempting to do. So I want to make sure that expectations are managed. These beach ends aren't going to look like they did the week before Ian. They're going to look different. They're going to be a little bit more open. They're going to be more consistent. That's the other feedback that we heard. Benches, tables were appropriate signage. So that's going to look different. The goal is, can it be better? I think that's the direction that we heard, not to be exactly the same as what it was. To your point, Mayor, the structural access points. I think that's a very good input. You know, one of the things that we need to balance is resiliency versus access. You know, ideally, you're just walking from the parking lot to the beach, but that doesn't make sense from a resiliency point of view. We have berms. We want to make sure that we're protecting the upland environment from search. So that's where natural resources comes in. And I know and talking with the natural resources for folks specifically Natalie. We're working with Grady Minor. We're giving feedback on their design to make sure we're not compromising resiliency. But in short, the goal here was to put it back better. Not put it back the same. But what we need from you all today is feedback. Are we going in the right direction relative to the walkways and the material, the benches, and things like that, because we gotta get moving. The frustration of the community is the frustration that we have, the longer it takes to finish up this design, the longer it takes to put it out to bid, and the longer it takes to start construction. I understand that, but where I don't see is the details in these beach ends where I don't think anybody's expectation will be that it will be the way it was. But again, it is those structures and I didn't realize it until I met which had that those things won't be there. That's a blanket statement that the structures that were there won't be there, it's not true. There are structures, they may be different, they may be designed a little bit differently. And I think this is where we should maybe have Grady Minor speak on that. We do have structures, We do have walkways. We do have access ramps. Those are not going away full sweep. They're going to be situational, depending on the beach. So I want to make sure that we don't leave this meeting thinking that there will be no structures at the beach and there will be structures. They may look different. So Chad, if you can maybe elaborate on that a little bit more. Yeah, and I flipped over to seventh Avenue South and just to show an example here. This is one in particular, this is a wooden walk over here. And this one's one that's, ones that we were able to kind of salvage and go through and save and will still do some additional work where we salvage and go through and save and we'll still do some additional work where we're going to come back through and look at some of these to try to put some composite material on there to try to hold so that it'll last a little bit longer. But we've tried to capture that. There's areas where they were torn out. Those are the ones that we've considered for the ADA mats. The walkways and again this is I get a lot of I'm sure you all do too. I get a lot of feedback from the community. I get a lot of calls from the community. I meet with the HOAs. I meet with different groups that want to have feedback on this and one of the things that I had heard back at the beginning, which was when we first talked about this and we said where we had wooden structures, we're not going to look to put the wooden structures back necessarily that we have another option. Now we can go the wooden structure route, but that's going to mean the permitting is going to take longer and it's not going to be accessible. It's going to be basically what we had before. We have those ramps that we had the way they were, the grade, it's not ADA compliant, it's not ADA friendly. They were slick. If you've ever walked down one of them when they get wet and they get sand on them, they were slick. That's a whole danger component added to it and we didn't want to go back with that. Not to mention that when the surge hit them, it completely mangled them and that's tough. So 8th Avenue South, you're going to see a construction project where we're putting that walkway and that structure back. So as Jay said, we're not completely wiping every single one of them out and putting mats at every single access. We're looking at trying to put the accesses on, you know, we had ADA money that we put in every single year to put these mats out. We had sites that were identified prior to the storm to put the mats out. So now we have an opportunity to do that, reduce the cost of the project and we'll be a little bit further along with our ADA compliance portion of it. So everything that we've done has tried to be, I mean, we kept, even if we wanted to build it back exactly the way it was before. There's not plans for that. They were kind of. Yeah, I don't want to take up time on that. What I am really concerned about is that HOAs don't represent everyone in the community. So you have a board of five people. But you have people that have lived there longer than those board members. Somehow we have to educate them that those ramps that you're saying, you know, how many ADA access points do we have? How many do we need? That's important to know. Because I'll tell you, and you and I discussed this, if you are there expecting to have a walkway over, I know you may not have history in this, but people stand up there and they watch sunset. So I'm just trying to manage expectations of people when they get back, because they've been waiting so long, and if we get to that point and people go wait a minute, because you've been tweaking plans and they don't know about it, I just want to be very careful in that. And I'll leave it at that and give some suggestions later on how we make sure and we're not relying on HOA presidents to give that information and feedback. Yeah, well, I do want to add at least one one thing to that. I think about the design that we currently have right now doesn't take out the future potential to add a ramp or a wooden structure if that's the will of the community. What happens if we build one and then the community doesn't want the ramp, it's harder to take that out. So it's easier to add it at a later date. Our goal right now is to try to get the infrastructure back, at least to where it's, it looks like what we want it to look, which is a little aesthetically pleasing. I think that the wooden structures are, again, gonna be present, and I think that we haven't completely taken them out. We will put these on the website, so we will have everything updated once we get 90% plans. We have a website that we update all the projects. So these plans will go directly on there. Have we presented these plans? You know, big boards, pictures where the community has witnessed or seen these plans? We have not. Okay. Thank you. Councilmember Petronoff. I think in this case Ian did us a favor somewhat because our beach ends are really the most important architectural feature we have in the city. We have 40 of them and peaks to the Gulf of Mexico. Now we have the opportunity that it opens up and you can see them even more. I think in encapsulating this project, we have three items on here. We've got building and functionality, building and resiliency, and then there is a big aesthetic component to it. And I think if we haven't already done so, we should take advantage of our DRB and run this, these concepts by them. I do because when I know you're shaking your head, but it's, you know, their duties are really to preserve existing areas of natural beauty and cultural importance, which, you know, they will have thoughts and they think think and there's two architects on there that think about v contributing a positive way to the public environment of the city. And we haven't assimilated a group of people that do have expertise in the area. And because there's 40 of them, it's essentially like adding 40, rebuilding 40 structures in our city. And that is just going through DRB to get, collect their thoughts. I don't think would be that tough to do. But I think it's a good idea to hit the aesthetic component of this project. So thank you. I actually see what you're saying about DRB. I just don't think that we understand what this is really going to look like. I guess I'm trying to get to that point before it even goes into the new place else. So I have Council Member Kramer. A couple of things. We may be DRB, we need to look at it, but the experts work for the city and Naples. That's for the experts arch what they do for living and this would have been trained to do. And if other folks want to get involved, we have certainly can fill out an application to do those things. And regard the plans for the plans. I mean, do you want color elevations? I guess we could, but that's what we need to draw those. But if you've seen, I mean, plans or plans or shows what's what, it's got detail. I think they're pretty straightforward. And I've had as many people say, man, we got to get rid of those things and walk over. I mean, why don't we just have stairs go down? And as I have, we need to have them. So I'm not sure who wins that, whoever's the squeakiest wheel, I guess. But I did my main comment regarding ADA. I worked with special needs kids for 30 some years and I can't emphasize enough how important that is. And on a personal note, our oldest was going to Oxford to study and we had these plans. We were going to tour Europe before we dropped her off and then somebody driving a vehicle decided across to relay into traffic and hit her and across walk while she had the right away. And so we had to take her on our tour and then drop her off at Oxford in a wheelchair. And so until you've been in that situation, you don't appreciate the value of having ADA access. And so for anybody that doesn't like the aesthetics of it or how come we gotta be glad you're not the person pushing the wheelchair and the wheelchair is all I have to say. So thank you, Chad, for being on top of that and making sure we do have accessibility for all of our citizens, citizens, thanks. Absolutely. I've been in that situation, so I absolutely appreciate that and we need to make sure that happens. So thank you. I have Council Member Christman. Yeah, I appreciate all the comments and also support entirely what Councilman Cramer just said about the importance of doing the right thing with respect to ADA. You know, lots of good comments around this. I'm a little bit, I'm struggling to figure out in my own mind what direction we're really giving here though, because unless I'm misremembering it wasn't that long ago, I mean, I think it's even been since the last election that we had a session here where we were kind of picking out pavers and bench material and all kinds of very specific things as to what these beach ends should look like. So I mean, we really got down into the details and spent, you know, probably an hour and a half one day in council, you know, addressing a lot of these specifics. And you know, what I'm hearing on the one hand, the people who I talk to and who contact me is, you know, a sense of understandable impatience, even though I think we've done remarkable things since he and but a sense of understandable impatience that they wanna get these beach ends repaired and looking good. On the other hand, I appreciate the comments that we don't want to undertake improvements and, you know, next season comes and they're underway or people come back and see them and say, well, that wasn't what I had in mind. But we have gone through a process here. And as I said, we've been very much engaged as a council in getting into the weeds on this. And I'd love to be able to get the input of each and every resident on the specific design on the avenue that they live on. But, you know, I don't know how practical that is. So I guess I come down on the side of saying we need to move forward, get these contracts let and get this work underway. Vice mayor. and get this work underway. Vice mayor. Thank you. Well, there's no doubt about it that our community would like these beach ins open. And from a practical standpoint, I think Councilwoman Petranoff made a statement about how popular these beach access points are. And from my perspective, what I've seen is people that, not just residents, but the visitors to our community, they're seeking an access point where they can get out and enjoy the beach. And if you don't have these access points open with the basics, then you're forcing more volume through fewer access points, okay? And that's not a good thing. That pressure, that intensity creates some obstacles. So just a couple quick questions, Mr. Mayor, when was the last time our beach access points suffered this much damage? Do you know? I don't know that they've ever had this kind of damage and somebody would have to speak to that has been here a lot longer than me, but you know they've done some construction work but I think it's just basic maintenance. Bob's been there for 30 years so sorry Bob. That's okay. You know, but our department has been extremely involved in restoration after hurricanes. This is the only time I remember that we paid a lot of attention to the restoration of these beach ends because they haven't been damaged in prior hurricanes. When we were in Irma, you know, that was a rainstorm. And a wind event wasn't really a surge. Yeah, we had water up on the beach, I'm sure. But it didn't come over it and destroy them like we did. Even in hurricanes prior to in the mid 2000s, we didn't look at restoration of the beach ends. So just based on my observation, to answer your question, there hasn't been any damage to the beach ends. So just based on my observation, to answer your question, there hasn't been any damage to these beach ends. Yeah, like we've seen after Ian. All right. We know another storm, similar to Ian is gonna happen. We're just not sure when. And so I support the changes that we make that keep in mind, we are gonna suffer another Ian. And so the critical thinking that's going into bench design, the fact to weight, the fact of how it will withstand the sun, all those things are important. So I support that, those kind of decisions, decisions which provide critical thinking as to how certain design elements with STEM storm surge as well as replacement expense. When you get down into the details, those ballards that you looked at, I deal with ballards in the design of convenience stores. And, you know, there's different things. You get concrete underneath and then you slide something over. I just asked that you really think about if those plastic liners that go over them, make sure that those can't just float off and become weapons out in the storm surge. The ADA walkways were going from pavers. Now we're talking about poured concrete. That's the way I've understood the presentation. There's problems with that, right? Poured concrete. Less pervious surfaces for water tubes or storm surge that washes out underneath port concrete. I wonder if, and I know this is to Councilman Kramer's statements, we've got to make sure we are ADA compliant. I wonder if a compacted coquina walkway is ADA compliant. Certainly, it's a whole lot less expensive to replace and it looks forward to storm surge coming in the future. So overall I think that I support a phased approach. Let's get them open with the basics, right? And then let's consider a cadence of upgrades. Let the community really get involved in the upgrades that might happen over time if we don't get it right right away. But I think it is important to get them open. Thank you. Thank you. Councilmember Poption, did you have something? I cut you off before a crammer. Are you okay? I cut you off before a crammer. Are you okay? I want to move forward with this as well. And but we do have a body that works in tandem with city staff on aesthetics, two architects and a landscape designer. And it seems like a miss to not at least run these plans by them for additional feedback. Thank you. Thank you. And I'll just say two things. I think the timeline is crucial for the ones that are really structurally damaged. And if there's any way possible that we move that up, I think that's of great importance. We have have Memorial Day weekend, all the beaches were packed and I worry about a safety issue because people are still going to those beach ends and utilizing them. So to Vice Mayor's point, cleaning up the old signs, getting rid of those. Do we have to wait for these plans to be complete to start that project? Or do we need to address that separately? And then I'll just say, I appreciate if you could just put these plans out there. And maybe we just send out public information. Just look at it. I think we have to cover our bases. We expect that they're paying attention to our council meetings that may not be true. I'm just trying to do a little bit of preemptive work just like we are hearing now about the peer. And that's my fear. So Mr. Wittershorn. Okay, thank you Mayor. Lots of good feedback, lots of good points. Let me remind you all that we send periodic direct communications to the public's about restoration efforts including the beach access point. So we're not waiting, we're not relying on a community just looking at council meetings. We actually send them updates and we'll do that again with these plans. Again, a lot of good feedback, but two things that concern me about projects like this. Analysis paralysis and letting perfection be the enemy of good. We've heard from the community, we're anxious, they're anxious, they want these beach ends open. And to the vice mayor's point, we're talking about concrete and plants and wood. Tweeks can be made in the future. We do need direction from you all to keep moving. You know, if there's something that you see that it's a fatal flaw, let us know. But we're working with landscape architects. You know, we build parks and redesign parks, and we don't go to DRB. We rely on a subject matter experts who are involved in those design to consider aesthetics, functionality, resiliency, all of the things that you have rightly brought up. I think we are there. I hear it all the time from all sections of the community. When are you all going to get this open? And we're not even out the bid yet. So what we are looking from you today, and I think that was a question, what do we need from you today? We need direction to go forward. And of course, we'll take into consideration everything that you all have had I was a question. What do we need from you today? We need direction to go forward. And of course, we'll take into consideration everything that you all have said. And if there's a miss, if there's something that we didn't quite get right at a certain beach access, we can fix it. What I don't want to do is slow down the entire project to get this out the bed and get it the entire project to get this out the bid and get it contracted. Time is money. And the longer we wait, the longer the line gets behind contractors and the more expensive things get. So I just wanted to make those comments. Well, I guess if we're ready for that then I would like to motion to move forward on this. Second. I have a motion by Councilmember. I mean we don't really need to take that by motion but moving forward I think there's a consensus of moving forward and making sure that we address those areas that might have risk management issues. Okay. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Middleton. Thank you Mr. Mayor. Thank you. Okay thank you mr. Middleton thank you mr. Merritt thank you okay all right with that we will take a 10-minute break and come back at 10.50 you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you Okay, thank you. We're back from a break and just we're moving to public comment, but just a little housekeeping if you wish to speak about any item the registration forms are in the back of the room and can be given to the clerk. Also we are council we are going to have public comment do the consent agenda and since bond council is present, we're going to move 9C up after consent agenda. So with that, we are at public comment. Do we have any? I have none. Okay. For general comments? And so you can just come to the front and then make sure you give that slip to the clerk. And if you'll come forward and you can stand at the podium and state your name for the record. Oh, well welcome. You can stand at the podium and state your name for the record. Appreciate it. My first meeting here at the church. Well, welcome. Protocols. My name is Paul Coaches. I live at 514 Turtle Hatch Road. And with me are Cindy Donnell here. Cindy Donnell here, my neighbors. 523 Turtle Hatch Road. And we just wanted a couple minutes with Council. Thank you for accommodating us. There's been a number of discussions about the quality of the water. We live right adjacent to Swan Lake. We share those concerns about ongoing maintenance of proper quality and avoidance of pollution and contaminants. Our principal focus today however is not quality of water, it's the quality of, however, is not quality of water. It's the quality of the water, the quantity of the water. And I'll get it out the third time, the quantity of the water, thank you. We had an awful time after Ian, substantial flooding up in this Juan Lake area. And it caused our neighbors to come together and take a look at what perhaps could be done going forward and that's our focus as prospective here to see if we can improve the flood mitigants that are already existing in City of Naples procedures. And Donets and you can speak more specifically. But we wanted to call attention to what we consider to be some areas for improvement. And to get very, very specific, there's a weir dam that controls the outflow of water from Swan Lake. There's a rather large watershed that goes up to the north along Route 41. Don has the maps. It's something on the order of 240 acres of what was originally intended to be relatively undeveloped property, which is now under asphalt. It's non-porous. That watershed feeds all the way down to Swan Lake. There are nine input pipes. The only two going out. Long-term, there's just too much water collecting in that watershed. I've already burned up my time. No, you have one minute, sir. Thank you very much. You have one minute, sir. Appreciate the indulgence. So that's long term. Short term, there is a procedure that we've become sort of intimately aware of more than I ever cared to learn about weir boards. There is the ability to address at the weir dam lowering and raising the height of the weir board system. We would ask the council and staff to take a hard look at that. Apparently there is an emergency plan that provides for the lowering of We're boards at low tide before the hurricane or high water event occurs to Lower and make as much room as possible in that retention pond to collect water. And then what's missing though is the other piece of that, which is consistent with best practices, which is to just before the storm surge hits, raise the wires to the maximum extent possible to create the largest possible capacity for absorbing all of that conveyance of water off of this massive watershed. That's the missing piece. If we could get that incorporated into the procedures and make sure it states it in terms of maximum mitigation, we don't want weir boards just sort of halfway there. That doesn't cut it. Take them all the way down to the lowest possible level at low tide. There's four boards there. I can lift one myself at age 70, okay? It's not that hard to get them in there. Get the boards out at low tide and then before the storm surge, just before in this optimal timing we can discuss, replace them. And that's the missing piece from the emergency plan that we would call your attention to for further discussion. And could you just state your name again, when you were... Paul Coaches, K-O-C-H-E-S, by 14 Turtle Hatch Road. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. And, sir, did you have a public comment slip? Okay. We have a lot of detail. Okay. Thank you for being here. I know the city manager is very much aware of exactly what you're speaking about. And including that into the emergency plan absolutely looking at our base and maps and the best practices and how that water is coming to us has been hopefully will be addressed in our plan. I won't say hopefully it will get back to you on how we are addressing that incoming 208 crews of very much appreciate there. There are all kinds of long-term plan issues that could be considered but this isn't quick and easy fix and it maximizes what we have right now today. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Special event the upcoming hurricane season. Right. It's upon us. Thank you. Thank you. And any further public comment? I think that was it. There are two slips but I think they're all together. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And any further public comment? I think that was it. There are two slips but I think they're all together. Okay. Thank you. That takes us to approval of the consent agenda. I would like to just discuss 6B. And if there are any other items for consent? I'll move. You'd like to pull six B mayor. We'll do it in all business after we get through some of the more. I'll make a motion to approve the consent agenda with the exception of item 6B. Second. I have a motion by Council Member Christman for accepting the consent agenda. For pulling item 6B in a second by Council Member Petrnov. All in favour sign by aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? OK. Thank you, Council. That's the end of the consent agenda that will take us to item 9c. I have. Yes, please. Mr. MacConnell. Well, let the new city attorney read this long resolution. Thank you Madam Mayor. Resolution of the City Council of the City of Naples for authorizing the issuance of not to exceed aggregate principal amount of 27,500,000 City of Naples for the capital improvement revenue bonds. $500,000. City of Naples, Florida, Capital Improvement Revenue Bonds, Series 2024, for the purposes of financing and or reimbursing all or a portion of the cost of acquisition, design, construction, reconstruction, renovation, expansion, improving and equipping of capital improvements of the city, including but not limited to, reconstruction of the Naples pier and related facilities, and construction of the first Avenue South public parking garage, and paying costs related there too. Commening to budget and appropriate legally available non-advalorable revenues to provide for the payment of such bonds, making certain covenants and agreements for the benefit of the holders of such bonds, authorizing certain officials and employees of the city to execute any documents and take all actions required in connection with the competitive sale, issuance, and delivery of such bonds. Taking certain other actions with respect to such bonds, approving the form and authorizing the distribution of a preliminary official statement and execution and delivery of a financial or a final official statement. Authorizing certain officials to deem final the preliminary official statement for purposes of securities and exchange council rule, 15C2-12. Approving the form and authorizing the execution and delivery of the summary notice of sale and the official notice of sale. Appointing the paying agent and registrar. Approving the form and authorizing the execution and delivery of a continuing disclosure certificate, approving the form of and authorizing the execution and delivery of an interlocal agreement between the city and the community redevelopment agent of the city of Naples. Florida providing for severability and providing for an effective date. Could you say that again? I'm sorry. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Young. Good morning, Mayor and members of Council, Gary Young, Deputy City Manager of CFO. Before I start, let me just summarize this. This is the majority of this issue and is a statement of partnerships. And it started long ago with the garage. But before I get into a lot of that, I just want to introduce our bond council and our financial advisors on page 78. We also have disclosure council. And specifically, Bryant Miller and all of is our bond council. With us is Dwayne Draper. And then disclosure council is neighbors Ghiblin and Nickerson. We have no representative there here from them today. And our financial advisors is Hilltop Securities and Mr. Joel Tendles with us today. So if you have after I'm done with my brief presentation, if you have any specific questions to them, we'd be very happy to entertain them. But to be brief again, I'll go back to this was this there are partners in issuing this, but this began with the partnership with the acquisition of the law in the first avenue, South garage between the CRA and the like. This is the city of Naples continuing that partnership with the CRA because we issue the debt. The interlocal agreement portion of it is merely authorizing that you thatRA, when you act later on this afternoon on that, is actually dedicating those resources annually to retire that debt. And that's an important component because then when we break out, okay, how much is this, how much is the garage, how much is the pier, and what is the splits and why are they that way. What we settled on so far and again we still have the time to adjust it going downward but we wouldn't we would never adjust it upward because I don't think there'll be need for it. But the CRA portion, while it says 27.5 million, we only want a net 26 million and this is consistent with what I presented to you before. It's the 15 million for the CRA and the 11 million for the peer. The presentation that David is up is this before you now that you can see it. Okay, so when you split that out of the 20 estimated net proceeds 26 million, it's roughly 57.69%. Remember, this is preliminary bond market analysis. We will be rolling in the estimated issuance cost and the difference between doing a bank loan right now and a full bond issue, which we've had bank loans more recently. But the cost is roughly about 70,000 to 300,000. But the spread difference between a bank loan and bonds right now makes it very cost effective to have done it and the bond issuances large enough for us to yield a considerable return by issuing the full-fledged bond. So it'll carry with it some continuing, which if you've read the resolution, continuing disclosure requirements that you must do, but that it's worth the price of admission for the savings that we'll have for lack of a better expression. So this just shows you the split. That's really all I wanted to show you before you acted on this, which is that the CRA is 15 million and that the annual estimated principle and interest is about a million eight. And then the peer amount is 42.31 and the estimated principal interest amount of million three. We estimate that the true cost of interest will be hit. And this was as of May when they when we ran the numbers and it's it can still go up between now and when we close. But it can also go down as well which I believe it has since that a little bit but it's not hang our hat on that. So that being said, you know, we're looking at around an all-in true interest cost with expensive 3.67. So it's still very competitive and we're assuming we're going to close on this on August 22nd. Now with that said, there'll be a document that next steps, this won't come back to you like a bank loan where you have the final numbers. This is once it's sold on the market, that's what it is. Next steps is after I leave this meeting, I will be getting the clerk a document which is a certificate of meeting for both this session and the CRA session. That will be passed around for members of council to sign in a separate document for the mayor to sign as well. But that will be coming around this afternoon. We'll button that up this afternoon. There anyone who was here before when we did a debt issue and we'd go up to the mayor's office and all the legal paperwork through there and we would sign all those. But this is a little cleaner and we just have to have those documents signed before you leave today. So with that said, again, the only other thing I would say is this is non-Avalor, that's a key component, right? Because you have to go back to the people on an avalorim here. This is pledging revenue. Now even though we're pledging all the revenue of the city that's non-enterprise fund related, except for the beach fund, I want to remind you that this interlocal agreement says that the CRA is paying that portion of it, which is the bulk of it. And then the other component of this is the peer. And that is, while we're pledging all general revenues and peer revenue, the expectation would be that the peer revenue or the beach parking revenue would retire that debt. Now, if for those of you who say, well, we didn't just get 5 million, do we have donation? Okay. I'll remind you of when we, in Ian hint we had just over $8 million in the beach fund We have expectations of 5 million out of the governor signed it we Negotiated over 2.2 million for TDC to come in and those are all reimbursements and then we have FEMA as a partner as well But that is for restoration And despite what you read in the paper about getting 90% back, that is not an accurate statement. First, it's 90% on what is eligible, which is the restoration, and then anything else that we've done to it. And in addition to that, you just heard a presentation on the beach ends. That comes from the beach fund. And at 1.6 didn't include anything about the beach end part that Mr. Middleton was speaking of. So that fund by itself is expect to spend 28 to $29 million dollars in total. I'm tying 11 million under this to the pier, specifically for liquidity purposes. The reimbursements will come in, but it could be two and three years on the FEMA reimbursements. And in a perfect world, I hope to end up somewhere between three and five million left when this lands in Three years so that we're not back to zero in the event another storm hits So that's the reason for the borrowing. It's a cost-effective step to do provides the liquidity and and and and it's it's the right thing to do No matter what we've been able to secure Going into this so far. So that's all I have. Okay, thank you. And just for clarification, which is something that was the 28 million. So 27.5, we're baking in issuance. It's just a, we will still net 26 million. We just have it baked in for, on case there's a premium and other things built into it. But that's, you always issue more, but then we expect to net $26 million and have issuance cost right around $375. I was just clarifying that the beach ends, the structural pieces are not being paid or being reimbursed by FEMA. Well, though, there'll be some of that that'll be reimbursed from FEMA. But what I was alluding to is the 1.6 million that Chad referenced, it was actually 1.663, so around the 1.6 million that Chad referenced. It was actually 1.663, so around 1.7. But it's not in Bob's five beaches. That's not part of it. When he started talking seawalls, that part of it is not into those numbers as my understanding. So, I just wanted to make sure I differ. So we're not done, we don't know all of those costs yet. That's why it's still a cautionary piece to issue this step because we still have strains on those same resources. Great. Thank you. I needed that clarification. Council Member Christman. This is just a question that really doesn't impact at least my support for this but it's more of a question of curiosity maybe for our financial advisor. The placement of these bonds, how do we anticipate that being handled? I'll let it go. Good morning. To the right. Good morning. Joltindo with health ups curities. We serve as the city's financial visor. What you're proving today is the competitive sale of the bond. So essentially there will be an advertisement and official notice of sale along with the offering document that will be put out to the market and underwriters will ultimately bid on the bonds at a date and time specified in that notice. So basically you'll take the lowest true interest cost or the best bid that's bid on that particular date. And will your firm be the one that would administer and facilitate that? We'll assist with the competitive sale. So it's kind of a joint effort. It's an electronic bid. There's systems that are used now. But so Wall Street and regional firms will will bid on on this Everyone will have an opportunity and an opportunity but but typically and and typically I would assume in this case. I mean it's it's a big issuance for us not in the larger scheme of things but The people who would be all the like purchasing these bonds would be high net worth individuals. I would assume. In terms of the ultimate buyers. Yes. So the, with the competitive sale, you don't necessarily see who the the community and ranchers are. I understand that, but typically that's, that's, or the people who are working with the Morgan Stanley's and regional counterparts are the ones that's, or the people who are working with the Morgan Stanley's and regional counterparts are the ones that are, those individuals are likely the end purchaser, right? Sure. Individuals do make up a big part of the ultimate beneficial owners and municipal bonds. You also have bond funds as another example insurance company. So there's a variety, but individuals certainly get the benefit of the tax exemption. And I would assume giving, given, you know, given our rating and given the fact that these are tax exempted, and I would just, I'm making assumption that you would think that this will be a placement that will be eerily sought after. We think it will be well received. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions? Okay. So with that, if we could have the resolution adopted. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Downe. Councillor, do I have a motion? Sure. I move approval that we accept this recommendation from staff. I'll second. I have a motion by Councillor Member Pannaman and a second by Council Member Christman. All in favor, signed by aye. Aye. Opposed. Thank you, Council. Thank you, sir. Thank you for both being here. Thank you, Mr. Young. Okay, that takes us back to the regular agenda. The only item. Thank you, Council, for pulling is 6B. Mr. McConnell. Yes, thank you, Mayor. A resolution for the purpose of approving a contractor services agreement between the city of Naples and visual space Inc. of Florida Corporation in the amount of $472,133.50 for the Central Avenue median landscape restoration, ITB 24-019 to restore the median along Central Avenue. Authorizing the city manager to execute the meetings along central avenue. Authorizing the city manager to execute the contractor services agreement and providing for an effective date. Thank you, thank you for pulling this. I just want to, I had Friday afternoon phone calls about this project. So if you can briefly just remind us how long this project has been in place and what it's going to look like and main concern was pulling out mature trees and shade trees being prepable. We have Heather Shields, Urban Force Manager for the record. We've been working on this project for a little over two years between design and bid. We did originally bid it last year and it came in significantly over our budget. So we rolled it over so we could have better funding to do it this year. The Central Avenue Medians, I honestly don't know when they were last completely done in terms of all of their landscaping and trees. The project does remove all of the materials currently in there with the exception of two royal point sienna trees that are located between second and third. I don't remember. The two royal point sienna, I don't remember, second and third are third and second and third. I don't remember, but the two royal points, I don't remember, second and third or third and fourth, my apologies. The reasoning behind the complete demolition of the site and the removing of shade trees, which isn't something we take lightly. It's not a recommendation we make without careful consideration. There are several things that are going on within these medians that are preventing us from restoring them previously to what they should look like. One being the irrigation needs to be completely redone. The profile of these medians is above grade, so we will be bringing that back down. The root masses from the existing trees are such that digging is not possible due to all the root masses. And then in addition to that, if we were to strictly assess the trees through here and damages that they have sustained through Irma and then Ian, approximately half these trees would come out anyway. So we've kind of been kicking that can down the road so that we could do it in a manner that we could replace all of these trees and things right of way, you know, right away as part of the project. So that's kind of what we're doing. We did do extensive public outreach last year when we thought we were going to do the project. It was sent through HOAs. It was sent out through Monique and the City Manager's Office. We sent letters to the residents who live specifically on the street. And we also met with several of them, Chad, Jim and myself, or a combination thereof, met with a variety of the residents trying to help them understand and work through it's not lightly that we take on removing at this level but it is necessary to bring back what we need. Thank you and I understand that. I just had the president of Old Naples say call me and say that it did say that we were in support of it. I'm sure there was a transition of presidents and just confirming that they support shade trees and making sure that this just was publicly spoken about. So. And we do have a number of shade trees going back in. I mean, obviously they're not going to offer the shade that the ones coming out do, but there are other ones going in there. And my apologies. Yes, I didn't even dawn on me that people we worked with a year and a half ago might not still be in order so that are in that office. So that's our oversight that we would have overstepped and spoken about something that's not accurate anymore. Just that's why I pulled it. The last unit on Friday. I just make sure that we have noticed them properly and everyone is aware of it. So we don't have any repercussions from that. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else have questions about it? Okay. Well, thank you. Do I have a motion or I'll make a motion to approve? Second. Second by Vice Mayor. All in favor sign by aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Thank you and thank you for staying and explaining that. I'm out of order. Thank you. Moving on to A. Mayor, this is the item beginning of the meeting at reference. You received the communication that I passed out to you. Specifically, the communication is from a board member of the Old Naples Association. And I'll turn it over to Allison. Good morning. Mayor, mayor, city council. Talk with some vickett, your deputy city engineer for the record. Here to speak about the bike and pedestrian master plan and the priority list. So what I'm going to explain here first, I'm going to first go into our priority list, which you're anxious to hear about. And then there was some interest in the complete street discussion. So I'll be turning it over to our city engineer, Dan Ornstein, to go over that to conclude. So with that, I just want to provide a short overview of the history of the city's first pedestrian and bicycle master plan, which was adopted in October of 2007. An update to the plan was approved in June of 2013. For the 2022 update, the city hired an independent consultant, VHB, through the agreement with Council approval on December 2, 2020. There was a considerable number of concerns related to the validity of the collected survey data at that time you may recall. Following the VHB presentation in April of 2021, the Streets and Stormwater Department took the lead on the public outreach efforts. As a summary of the plan, the overall feedback and influence of the master plan was aligned with maintaining the vision of the community with consideration of the preservation of the green space within the right way. The plan supports pedestrian and bike improvements, but with interest in minimizing the impacts through various options such as sharrows or reducing lane whizz when possible to implement improvements. The bike and pedestrian master plan update was ultimately approved in 2022. It was indicated at the time that staff would return annually to discuss the priority projects and we have since returned to provide those lists of projects. So that what has been accomplished over the past year? A missing link of sidewalk along Riverside Drive sidewalk near Naples High along 22nd Avenue, a transition along Vanyan near US 41, flashers along Gorshra Boulevard North and Vadada Way, as well as park tour drive near Old Trail, Sheros along 4th Avenue, North 7th Avenue North and Old Trail, the streets team placed thermobrict pavers to enhance the crossings along C gate drive and work diligently to finalize and complete installation for speed tables along 7th Avenue north between Goughshire Boulevard North and US 41. So you can see the chart. This is what we had marked to kind of give you an idea of what we have. Right here you'll see some photos on the left side, Riverside Drive, Sidewalk, and Proof-Mits are identified, which are near Baker Park. In the middle, you'll see the Seagate driveway, Thermal Plastic, that brick pavers that I indicated. And right, you'll see the transition at Banyan and US 41. Too far. Sorry about that. All right. So the left on this slide here shows sidewalk near Naples High along 22nd Avenue North. The upper middle is Sheros where we replaced along 4th Avenue North, 7th Avenue North, and Old Trail. The lower middle are the flashers or rectangular rapid flashing beacons along Park Shore Drive near Old Trail as well as Gospels Boulevard North and Vidado Way. And right you'll see the installation of four speed tables along seventh avenue north between Gossier Boulevard North and US 41. So this just gives you an idea of visually of what the team has completed. I'd like to add this, I did add this to the end of the presentation, but I'd like to take this time to express my gratitude to the hardworking members of our streets and stormwater team that has helped make these projects happen because they take a lot of time and efforts and our team here, particularly under David Rivera, have put in a lot of time and efforts to help us and get these goals. So in preparation for this meeting, the Department has reached out to the Presidents' Associations and received priority projects from several associations. We sent out the prior list that were gathered during the original update to just to look at to see what may need to be added and deleted off those lists. And you may recall from the budget discussions that there was $150,000 budgeted for the year consisting of what we budgeted historically. Within your package and on the screen we have included the draft project matrix here. This matrix identifies projects for each fiscal year in the streets team. We have attempted to fairly distribute the projects between what the feedback we've received and try not to put it all in one HOA or subdivision. They are fully up for discussion, so these are not set in stone. Want to make that fully clear. I will add that the list presents an amount over the budget due to the Third Street Self project not being completed. That I'll get into in a minute, but we have carry over fines that we anticipate can carry the total amount identified on what you see on the screen. And as in prior years, there are still steps that will need to be accomplished to affirm the projects are suitable. These are, there are a few projects where we do foresee obstacles or concerns that are not listed, but not budgeted such as Billow's Escalante. You may ask why are you seeing it again after rejecting it last year? But it was a priority for Old Naples Association and a request to reconsider. So I've put that back on the list because they did. It was a priority. It was actually in the attachment. You'll probably see as well that J. referred to earlier. Ultimately, the goal is to move forward with a vision that we want to see from the entire community. So this is where we're trying to build this list from. I just want to hate to interrupt you, but is that from old Naples Association or from the business improvement district that made that request? That was from the old Naples Association for the bill is Escalante. So that you'll see that in the document that was provided today. They did request that I did have a conversation and I did sit down and speak with ONA about the priorities and reiterated that you know this was a project that was that you all did deny last year and they still have interest in it. So it is- Can you just confirm who you spoke to? Paul Hanran was the contact that primarily led that discussion. So thank you. Sure. All right, so we'll go into and I just provided this is not everything, but I wanted to provide some visuals of some of the projects and the locations that we're referring to. So right here you'll see the potential options submitted for Lake Park. Across walk with flashers due to it being uncontrolled. Along Tens Street is a consideration for a Tens Street and 12th Avenue North. Another request is 12th Avenue North sidewalk along the north side of the road between 10th Street and US 41. So another option for you to consider. You'll see that missing link up to 41 here for you to consider. And old Naples, we have the third street south between Central and First Avenue South, which was a prior request that I did mention before. It doesn't involve some obstacles with private and public palm trees and swells as well as some pushback when we considered that option along the west side of the road. So we did consider that and reached out to the impacted property owners and on the west side they were not, they were not in support of it at all. So we ended up reaching back out to ONA and to asking about their feedback and shared those concerns with them. We also have looked at the potential of doing this and did I say on the that was on the east side. So we're considering installing it on the west side of the road and lieu of the east side because of the pushback from the east side property owners. So in that would provide still some connectivity along that stretch. There is a missing link, so that is of consideration an alternative for you to consider. Winding of the sidewalk along Fifth Avenue South was as I mentioned was previously in the 9th and you'll see this picture up here for Villesesca-Lonte. It is a rather pricey option at an estimated we were estimated about $80,000 for that because we would have to remove that sidewalk and that stretch and all. There may be some challenges for the city palms as well. There was another project that did receive high priority which has been a missing link which is not shown on here but it's a missing link between 3rd Avenue South and the alley to the north of 4th Avenue South. That I've received a lot of feedback from some of the residents along there. It's a missing link that it's about 155 feet of linear feet of sidewalk. And I think that would potentially be a good option as well for you to consider. Which one was that the 12th? So that that one isn't shown on your screen, but it's a missing link between Third Avenue South and the alley to the north of fourth Avenue South. It was in the ONA right up that you received in your fifth streets. It was in the and feel free to Just forwarded you to I noticed that River Parks was missing and they just, they just submitted theirs which you have a cup be of. Okay, thank you. We did try to reach up to the multiple times and weren't able to receive their feedback. So that's why I'll get into it but I really kind of wanted, these are options and we didn't receive feedback from all the associations and community. We just tried to grow from there. So for Park Shore, the request included shares along the Appalitan Way as a consideration as well as flasher for the crossing at West Boulevard and Whispering Pine, Pine Lane. And for clarification, the title of Whispering Pine Lane was shortened on your screen here. But this is near C-gate Elementary, so it is, I think, a safety issue to consider that they did support in the park's short area. Cocina Sands, the primary quest was interest in traffic calming in Cocina Sands. Speed tables on Orchid Drive was brought forth. A traffic study was conducted and the data does show support for a need for improvement. Those numbers were higher. We just collected that data most recently. We tried to collect the data during season and for whatever reason the data was corrupted. And so we just re-did the study, the speed study, and those findings appear that there is definitely a need for at least some enforcement to start out with. So the police department has reviewed that data and indicated they are increasing enforcement in the area. And I did receive a message earlier this morning from a Kokina Sands that they had shared that they've already noticed enforcement out there. So they're responding to this. And I'd like to just note most often the violators are residents along that corridor that are comfortable with that road configuration. So you'll see them out there and when even sitting down with Kokina Sands like, you know, I might be a little, I might be one that may need to slow down my speed a little bit along here, but they did understand that that might be of interest. So, you know, the topic of traffic calming has been a leading theme. Typically, various options are considered, and as we've gone through with the 7th Avenue discussions, the options are to be evaluated depending on the existing conditions, needs, and the right way. Traffic coming does take effort in budgeting including the collection of traffic data, initialing, considering enforcement options, and then considering geometric changes based on the specific location in what options may be best fitting for the areas such as perhaps fall bouts, median islands, or raised crosswalks that could be applied. Further discussion with residents. Most directly impacted will be necessary before prior to commencement of traffic calming infrastructure. Shout us move forward. And as with 7th Avenue we expect to bring it forward as a separate item if this is of it. If you'd like to support this, we did already receive a petition from the residents along Orcid and narrow very anxious to see something happen in this area. So in this stretch. So I just want to relay that there were concern about you know that data wasn't going to be available in advance of this meeting. But I think that we're going to go ahead and start with that enforcement. But we know how the enforcement they can't be out there all the time so if there is interest in the traffic calming that is a desired option for this this area. Mr. Verak? Mayor council, Dave Rivera, street traffic operations supervisor. Two quick things I wanted to bring up, the study that we did, even though one was conducted during season one was not. From the years I've been doing this, when it comes to speed, it's better off season, less traffic, faster cars travel. So just to let you know that for volume, for stop signs, it's a lot better during season. And the other item was as far as the speed tables along Orchid until we find out if you're gonna ask us to follow on this, we have not determined how many are going to be needed out there because I have to walk this whole road and make sure it doesn't impact people's dry ways and look at line-as-side issues as well. That's all I had. Mr. Rivera, the orchid study, you mentioned something at the beginning. Was that not about the orchid study? The speed? Yes. So it was done. We did one during the end of season, but the data in the unit got corrupted as well as well as the software. So the police department had a download new software and then we had to put the unit back out there to collect the data again. And unfortunately it was just out of season but like I mentioned usually our speeders are mostly out of season because there's less traffic. So, but Orchid has historically had a concern about speed? Yes, I've always wanted to put the center line back in because of it, at least a broken one through there. Because of the meandering back and forth so they do have speeders I think we were at 11 miles an hour over the post-it speed limit. And putting the center line back can you we can still do that you're still going to do that. Not yet until I need councils approval to put it back. Because it was originally designed to put in the bike lanes with the, we hired an engineer at the time, our previous director, our hired engineer at the time to look at that. And his recommendation was to lower the speed, which we did. And to put in the bike lanes but not putting a center line in there. I feel that we should put at least a broken center line through there. Lisa helps guide them a little better through there around me and three corners. And is there a problem with width or? It would be what engineers love, which is it'll be tight and... The red light width. It's nine, nine, 10, almost a 10 foot best required. Okay. Thank you. I have Council Member Christman. Thank you Mayor. There was just a couple of these that I was going to comment on. I'm sure others have their own comments on different ones, but while I've missed a reviewer up here, you know there's that famous ad campaign that so goes on, I think it's the beer's diamonds are forever and it was James Bond movie named that one. Well there's at least one other thing in life that's forever and that's speed humps. Because once you've got them, they're never going to go away. And I think I've mentioned this before in other contexts. I was in when I lived in Atlanta, there was a in the community I lived in. There was a major battle over a street, whether it would speed Humpson, the street that was the main thoroughfare in our community. And I was on the side that said no and lost. But and I know I've communicated with gentlemen for more could drive who's been the major proponent of this. And we just went through the seventh avenue north situation. Of course, I just personally think that looking at any and all options before speed tables or speed homes are put in is is is the smart way to go. I was maybe maybe in the end'll need it on orchid, but I do worry about a proliferation of speed hump streets and napoles, because I think they're problematic. And you know, there's gain, but there's pain to be felt. And these are streets that, you know, these are all public streets. I mean, not just the street the streets don't just serve the residents and obviously and there's a balance there so that was one comment I wanted to make do you want me to make my other brief comments on a couple of the others there now well I have the floor? Your questions were to Mr. Rivera. Similar. Regarding the different area. Okay. And same. Okay. So we'll just go ahead and continue on with individual questions. Yeah. But were you complete with your presentation? No, I'm sure I have a few more slides. Right. Thank you. Thank you. I'll go ahead. I'll go ahead. Finish. Yeah. I'm trying to move rather quickly, but project identified as a potential options for the morning is a pedestrian crossing with supporting flashers. As you can see on here at Leighward and Harbor Drive, this was an option that was presented from the mornings that I'd like to really, they did include in that there was interest in converting back our roundabouts and converting our signalized sections at mooring line and creating and harbouring and creating into roundabouts again and we will not take that. I did not provide that as an update. I just shared that those were not supported in the past and we were moving forth with signalized intersections in those locations. So this was the one that potentially is an opportunity for the moreings that they did support that I am presenting. Sunteris. It did sit down with the Sunteraris Association and one of the top Interest that they had was 22nd Avenue North by Naples high We actually are already looking at updating and replacing the markings by Naples high along 22nd Avenue and looking to include this as a project So I think that we should be set for this, but what it to relay this to as well I think that we should be set for this, but I wanted to relay this to you as well. So moving forward, what are the request challenges and options for the projects do we have? There was interest from residents along 7th Avenue North for traffic calming between Goodlitt Road and US 41. So this has been kind of reoccurring, especially since 7th Avenue North between US 41 and Gorshore Boulevard was installed. There was also interest in the east side of 41 to also install traffic calming measures as well. They have not moved forward with anything from the original discussions, but that was something that was brought to this our attention. So I wanted to relay that. There was interest in, let me see, we do not have a traffic study nor a petition for that section. We've also received feedback for options where there are challenges that may make it difficult to address. Shall we budget such as the photo on the screen for 21st Avenue South, Gordon and Marina Drive? It is previously mentioned. There are carry-over funds that do impact the numbers presented. So I just wanted to relay this. There's challenges. We will still need to evaluate and look at these projects. But I'd like to receive your feedback on the priority list that are presented today and see if there's any that you do wish to support, delete, and relay the information that we did receive from the associations and any other feedback. Again, we have not received from all the associations. I'd be happy to consider information from River Park community as well and any other options that you may have been presented that didn't come through us. And with that, that ends the portion of the presentation until we get into the complete streets. We can roll into that if you want and. Okay, so I'm going to I have a. As mentioned at the June 7th city council meeting there was interest in a discussion relating to complete streets. City Engineer Dan Orinstein will be expressed expressed interest in providing this one of one on complete streets and will be providing an extension to this discussion. Before transitioning there are a few slides that I will be sharing with a brief overview to lead into his presentation. Here you will see right here on the screen, a timeline of the complete streets policy by the Florida Department of Transportation, just identifying the criteria that they have had or the background in history starting from 1984 to 2018. Just quickly jump into that and then the floor statutes under 3335, 065, requires bike and pad considerations being incorporated into state, regional, and local transportation plans and programs. What I want to express with this is that there is a consideration that this is a consideration that we want to consider as we decide to reverse the complete streets policy adoption and understand that this most likely will impact if we decide to reverse that, that it will likely impact MPO grant funding for the city for those types of projects. So just wanna relay that, I did have a conversation just briefly with the MPO and to discuss with the complete streets and interests because of some of the prior discussions. As you are aware, the city adopted by resolution complete streets policy into the comp plan. As noted, the complete streets is a flexible, multimodal approach, meaning it is not a one-size-fits-all and can be fit to the needs of a particular street. This was an approach that we have incorporated on many of our projects, which means we do not need to have sidewalks, bike lanes on every street. Without getting into the details, I will turn it over to Dan for his complete streets 101 presentation. Thanks very much, appreciate it. Yep. And let's see. Good morning. Good morning. Dan Ornstein, city engineer, great to speak with you all. I'll just take a second to pull up the presentation. And again I'll say a warm welcome to you even though you've been introduced to us before. But oh thank you I appreciate that. Yeah this is the first opportunity to speak with you also it's great to be here thank you. Yep so one second. All ready. So here this morning to give you all a basic overview of Complete Streets and our policy. To start off, you can see here the Complete Street project I did in Sarasota, the Rindling Trail. We took the outside lanes of Rindling Boulevard and turned them into protected bicycle lanes, but this is just one example of a complete street. So what is a complete street? According to Smart Growth America, it is an approach for designing and building streets for safe access for users of all ages and abilities. There is no one particular layout or design prescription. Each complete street is unique and must be tailored to the context of the community. For reference, complete street is not a new idea. Here is a cross-section of a principal avenue in the plan for Barcelona by civil engineer Il de Fond Serdà, way back in 1860. Fortunately, we no longer have to design for horse and buggies or coal-powered coaches. However, the mandate is still the same to be comprehensive. So what is our policy? In 2015, the Council passed Resolution 1513719, which called for incorporating a complete street program into the development of all new road works. So to hopefully go from the picture on the left to the picture on the right to accommodate all users, the resolution has a number of provisions picture on the right to accommodate all users. The resolution has a number of provisions and I'd like to walk you through them and they're quite a few. So, to give you the highlights, the resolution states that the city shall incorporate a complete street approach into the comp plan and all other plans. Shall incorporate complete streets into all road works where practical and shall develop a complete street principles as part of our multi-modal transportation program. She'll address the needs of all users at each phase of a project. She'll consider low impact development and canopy trees at the start of concept planning. She'll balance transportation and transportation. each phase of a project, shall consider low impact development and canopy trees at the start of concept planning, shall balance transportation needs with community values, physical constraint, public safety, environmental protection, and historic preservation. Further, we shall design to fit the street, encourage staff professional development along these lines, and identify project funding. In addition, we shall establish a cross-city review team for new-road projects, report how much sidewalk and pathway were added in the past year, which you've heard well done. And use these practices, use these particular references, AASHTO, NACTO and the like, in the bike-ped master plan. Finally, all contractors and consultants should follow the complete street approach. The city will cooperate with our neighbors in this approach. We will promote public awareness of the benefits of the complete street approach, and we will establish a team to formally obtain input from the bicycle community. So using art and science, we will take a comprehensive approach and seek broad ranging input to thoughtfully accommodate all users of all ages on our streets. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so that completes the presentation. Thank you very much. I think it's very important that we discuss the complete streets. I'm not opposed to complete streets. It's about how we complete our streets and how we go about incorporating those projects. Because it's very important when we're using our staff report. It says, well, it fits within our blue zone or it fits within our green, I mean, our complete streets. But sometimes my biggest concern is being logical and having master plans for bicyclists to get around the community in a safe way, avoiding our truck streets and our most congested streets. So I'm- Right, it starts with a big map, right? The big map of the transportation plan. Yep. And that's always been my biggest concern is do we meet the bigger plan for completing our streets. So I have Council Member Kramer and then Petrinov. I'm going to have you. I will start with complete streets and then segue a little bit. So I, I'm going to complete streets a little bit before I ran for office and I just thought we were all committed to it and this is what ran for office and I just thought we're all committed to it And this is what we're doing and I also thought it was easy low-hanging fruit and I Think I'm now wrong on this that My thought process was you do what you can where you can especially if you have grant money Can't do it all but if we can do something here Let's do it and which is why like with the vice mayor when we said we don't want to do South Gulf, I didn't understand it. But in lieu of what the mayor just said, if it's using that bigger map as our guide, then I guess it does make sense. Then I would say why do we ever get started down the road on South Gulf anyway. I guess that would be my question. Because it seemed like that's the perfect space. It's got enough width and all that to do everything we're talking about in that picture we just saw. How do you say that? Also, South Gulf folks. Hi. I went and a Port Royal had to in the middle of that storm and it came back up and I'm like, let me check out South Gulf, South Dryad is dry as a bone. They are not exaggerating. There's no, it was amazing to me. Of course, I always knew that. If you ever ran or rode a bike, you know that as you get to the golf course, it's quite an incline. I digress. In my neighborhood in Santeris, which it occurs to me that if you don't live near the high school, live north, fall on north in there, the north end of our City on this side. You have no idea what that's like. Like you just don't have a famous reference. And it was interesting. We had our big couple months ago, the Easter egg. The whole neighborhood goes out, and all the little kids come out. We do this big Easter egg hunt thing. And we had some new people that were retirees. And they were there for the first time. And so from new borns to, especially elementary, but we got a ton of little kids there just so everybody is clear on that. Which brings me to the 22nd and 26th cutthroughs from 41 to good luck. If you live here for the last, I don't know, 50 years. No, that's not true. Probably last 28 to 29, especially when they changed the entrance to Naples High School. Used to be on 22nd, now it's good, but the student parking law has to be on 22nd. So you know 22nd's a problem, and I know the mayor will vouch for me on this one. It's a, the inmates are escaping every day and getting to their work release spot late in the mornings. And so we've, we've asked for stop signs. It was first on like 10th and 14th. I'm both 22nd and 26th. They both worked this way. And the irrational given for no stop signs was, well, traffic's going to back up on both 41 and on good. Which is true. That just tells you what the volume is. So that being the case, we need to do, knowing that we've got crazy drivers and extreme volume. It's time to do something. And so with all due respect to my colleague, I don't like speed tables either. And I was told speed humps aren't viable because of first responders, they don't like those. But they are compatible, more compatible with speed tables. I don't know any of that. In lieu of having a police substation on those streets, we have to do something. And truth is, when I talk to folks on neighborhoods, most of us have been there a long time. Everybody just doesn't matter what we say. City's not going to do nothing. They really don't care. They're going to tell us why they can't. I really don't buy that. I know our staff. They're awesome. And so I'm imploring. And those of you that don't buy that. I know you, I know our staff, they're awesome. And so I'm imploring and those of you that don't have any kids at all in your neighborhood ever that you're out just walking around and see adults. There's other places where there's lots of little kids and that's one of them and we need to make this a safe spot for for these young families and these young little kids running around. Thanks. I apologize. I have council member Petra. Um, just curious, those stop signs that you are suggesting or speed humps were, I believe we got data back from Sun Terrace, no, from the HOA. We, I haven't, we actually sat down with Sun Terrace and they've actually joined me. I don't recall that they had that was an priority for them. I think that there was a concern for traffic in that vicinity, but they're in their other options as well. There's an all-per-stuff week. Just to jump in. I don't know when you all met, but we have a brand new team, I think, last week. Okay. We met with them a couple weeks ago. Two, three weeks ago or so and sat down and yes they have a great team. We sat down and had a great conversation and talked about some other improvements. We actually have a grant for our sidewalk on 26 as well. So that's forthcoming and they were excited about that. I said we want to see your support then. Let's do it. And if they're not talking about it, they're just never going to happen as a mentality and I'm not buying that. But 26th is happening. Sidebook. Yes, we actually have a grant for that. So that's moving forward. I actually just spoke with F.Dot last week about that project. We've sent out some notices at this point. I actually just spoke with F. last week about that project. We've sent out some notices at this point. Now we're in the very early stages, so not to be alarmed, but we shared the information because we're gonna be starting out getting some survey data and trying to get that process going, did determine the feasibility of the sidewalks because the grant was submitted for sidewalk on both sides of the street. The community was very excited to hear that there was the opportunity potentially for sidewalk on both sides of the street. The community was very excited to hear that there was the opportunity potentially for sidewalk on both sides. I'm not sure if that's going to happen and I said you if you know it sounds exciting now but sometimes when you put that in and we present it to the residents it's one of those not in my front yard and they like it but they wanted on the other side of the street so I think it's going to be a determination on the feasibility and whether or not which if we go with both sides or one side of the street. And I really, when we sent out some letters out, I think it was late last year to the residents, just to let them know this is forthcoming, provide any feedback if they have concerns. And really didn't receive much pushback. There was some that it did receive that I prefer for it on the other side of the street, but that was about it. I also wanted to mention that during that conversation they had brought up 22nd Avenue North about paving and I told them that wasn't part of the pet mask, but I would look into it and I was able to find some additional funds. So we do have 22nd Avenue to be repaved this year and restriped all the new school symbols and crosswalks will be put back the way they should be, nice and bright. So hopefully, help slow down the traffic through there. But you've been long enough to know that's always been a thing. I've been here 40 years, yeah. Yeah, I've been murdered. I mean, it's always been a thing. And do we have any designs on actually something to slow the traffic down? Because paint, don't do it. But no one's requested speed tables in that area. Okay. I'd request whatever we can do to move forward to our stop signs. We just don't put up stop signs. They have to warrant them. Yep. They're not used to slow people down. They have to be warranted to be put up. Yep, understood. And I see the conundrum where we're going to get in soliciting feedback as best as we can. We go to the HOAs. They give in complete feedback or partial feedback. So maybe we can make sure we do the outreach, you know, to make it robust. Because I think you had some good suggestions, especially with kids in the area. The other piece is on, man, well, just at a higher level. The piece I'm struggling with a little bit is our police force, you know, historically, you know, we've been short staff now, we're fully staffed and we've got some traffic people but they're, you know, it's never going to be enough. So I'm a little unclear as a person that has not majored in traffic. On what is the most effective thing to use? What I like about speed tables is it's passive, it's their 24-7. It does not take our police away from doing higher value, crimey kinds of things, and versus having police enforcement that is not 24-7 that will be pulled off certainly on other for other matters on a continual basis. And I don't know if you've got criteria on when to use police enforcement and when to use a speed table. So we so we typically start with we collect the data, we start with more of a process, collect the data, identify if there's a true issue or if it's a perception. And then we initially start with a process of enforcement steps. And if that doesn't work typically then we try to look at options and opportunities for traffic calming measures. If there's interest from the residents, there's not always, I've been at meetings where I've had one person standing next to another and one person says, I want speed tables. The other one next to them is like, shake and they're had, no, we don't want this. But there's other options out there for traffic calming measures as well. Okay. So sequential. You start with the lightest touch. And then if that does a point of work, you put the hammer down. Yes. Okay. The second thing is on Mandarin specifically, I think they might have a similar issue to Councilmember Kramer's concern. have a similar issue to council member cramers concerned. And you do have a lot of odd things going on on Mandarin. It is a curve and you've got public traffic dumping into it. You also have a Shabbat with a preschool there with little kids. And so it's, you know, this may warrant extra attention, bless you to look at. There's also on Gulf Shore Boulevard North, the Miramar Beach Crossing. That, I'm surprised that that was left out of that because the northern ones were, and maybe it's because the, once the HOA lives up north. But I've heard from residents that they need flashing lights or some sort of tools to slow people down so that they can cross safely to the west with the same attention as the other crossings that are a little further north on horizon. I think I forwarded you the river park, you know, data. And you know, there was other things besides pot holes in there. So you have those as well. And let's see. The other comment that I'd like to make on complete streets, and this is, you know, it started with Gulf Strobell of our north many years ago where the big petition and there was a bruja on the public right of way. But the piece that I'm struggling with for the complete streets is they get, you know, if you want to do a complete street model full blown out thing, you are paving over a lot. And we continue to struggle with pervious surfaces because, you know, when we rebuild a house, it doesn't have a backyard anymore really on most of these new builds that I'm seeing. And so that's all gone. And then you could be exacerbating this by making the sidewalk wider, putting it on both sides, putting bike lanes on both sides. So, and maybe it's in the light touch, maybe we need to sort of re-look at where we have them and where we don't. And keeping in mind that we do want to be able to have space enough for the shade trees which are in the right up and the desire on complete streets as well as just pervious surface and being mindful that there is a trade-off when you do this. Oh, and certainly, to your point for the Runeleon Trail, which we did, which I did in Sarasota, at the end of the day, we added pervious area because we added 11 landscape islands. And the long-term plan is to add more landscaping on the corridor. So you can have a complete street and create spaces for all users and actually end up with more, pervious area, more greenery depending. The idea is tailoring it to the street and to the community. So I guess my question then is on the next step are you going to come back with a recommendation on, you know, or is this the input by the neighborhoods or are you going to come back with a recommendation on, or is this the input by the neighborhoods, or are you going to come back with saying a series of recommendations on what actions to do by street? This is the priority list that we are presenting. We'd like to receive your feedback. Unless there's an issue where there's a lot of controversy that we foresee on a project that we don't want to move forward without your approval, or there's a limit as far as a higher number, those we expect to proceed on. OK. Then I guess my feedback would be to address the areas with the kids on Sun Terrace and on Mandarin. You know, either start with the light touch of the police enforcement or go with some humps that, especially by the school and by those entrance on publics or where the issues that are noted on, but maybe start sequentially like you usually do. And being adding whatever you do up north to do the mirror mark down on Gulf Shore Boulevard north for Park Shore or slash or is that the moorings? Is that via mirror? Yes. Okay. Thank you. And then incorporate the river park. Maybe we just got it so we need to digest it and take a look at whether this makes sense but they even had potholes and things in there. What makes the most sense for that community? And there probably needs to be some discussion between you and River Park as you've had with old Naples Thank you Thank you. Thank you Thank you. I have a council member penniman Thank you for your presentation today, and I'm looking at resolution 15-13719 And we kind of have a new breed of cat out there that in my mind and we kind of have a new breed of cat out there that in my mind does require a new iteration and these are the e-bikes. They're not really bicycles. They go awfully fast. They go as fast as a car does. And so I'm thinking that somewhere in here there needs to be the inclusion of e-bikes as a consideration relative to complete streets. I'm sorry a what bike e-bikes electric bikes. Mr. Barton and I were at the MP or MPO meeting this week. I'm currently waiting for a white paper that F.Dot has done on e-bikes. Maybe this premature discussion relative to maybe reading that white paper, but the fact that M-V-M-P-O or that F.Dot has written a white paper relative to e-bikes tells me that they're going to come forward as a major consideration. I just have to leave that. And I'll be glad to share it with you when I get it. So sorry. Oh absolutely. Berkuer. Staff is currently reviewing the regulations on e-mikes. So to your point. So should they be included as a separate item in the resolution is my question as a different iteration entirely from right now F dot is looking into it. Collier County's looking into it and we've been part of the discussion because Allison and I are on to the committees that are part of the MPO until somebody comes up with a solution. I they mentioned signs, like keeping them off sidewalks. Right. And I'm like that's a lot of signs that put up them down. So good lid and all these sidewalks, stating, sorry. No ebikes. So. Currently bicycles are not permitted on city sidewalks and business districts. So, um, and to your point, the purpose of complete streets is to think about all users. So if there are another user, then we'll start thinking about how do they best fit on the street? Do they belong on a journey? I just sort of think we need to go there personally. Yeah. I think we need to also have that as a discussion on council. We need to we need to have staff coming back to us with this many multi-mold items and options that are coming out of the cards because it may be an FDOT policy that they want but it's this council can decide whether that's something that our streets are capable of accommodating and that's what we need to look at. I suffered the safety and and for safe routes. So yeah, I think so thank you for your support on that. I'm reviewing it. Yeah, okay. I know that. If I may, real quick, to council member, Penamence Point, I did meet with staff on Friday with regards to electric bicycles, scooters, micromobility devices. So the law changed in 2019 when it came to micromobility, which are some of these scooters that you see for rent. I was involved in an initiative and another jurisdiction in which we amended our code to be updated with Florida Statute. We're actually starting that conversation. We already started on Friday. So the resolution could be potentially amended but just so you're aware there will probably be some actual code changes that are going to be proposed based on conversations that I have with staff and based on direction from city council to address electric bicycles, segues, scooters, all sorts of micrommability devices so I just want to make you aware of that initiative that's ongoing. I'm very appreciative of that. Thank you. Thank you folks. Okay, thank you. I have council member Christmdon. Thank you. Thank you, folks. Okay. Thank you. I have council member Christmown. Thank you. So a couple of comments on specifics. I already made my cautionary comments on speed The only other project that I wanted to flag is potentially being of concern to me is the Fifth Avenue South, so-called Villa Escalante Project from two standpoints. And number one, and I realize this is a project that would have broader benefits than just the Vila Escalantes because in terms of the flow of pedestrians going to the beach and from Fifth Avenue and so on. But we have had some serious issues with Vila Escalantes that I'm not sure Mr. Boudre-Schwar or Miss Bickett have been fully resolved and code enforcement issues and so on. So I'd personally anyway have a concern about embarking on a project until that has been clarified and dealt with. The second issue I have with that is just the cost. I think somebody mentioned 85,000 is a- It's about 80,000. And you know, I don't, you know, the presentation said we typically spend about 150 on all these projects annually. And so, you know, I don't know what kind of flux there is in that budget, but it would be, I would not like to see more than, there are higher priorities I have, and I'll get to them in a moment than that, if that would eat up more than half of the budget. So those are my two concerns there. In terms of other projects, I don't have anything else on this list is, I feel certainly supportive of, but just to highlight a couple within old Naples, the third street, so-called Missing Link Sidewalk Project, I think I can just tell you is extraordinarily important for a public safety standpoint. I know we've been trying to deal with that for a long time and there are issues working with residents, but that would be high on my priority list, along with the third Avenue South, the fourth Avenue South project that's not on the list, but Alice and said it was a late-entrant. I'd also prioritize personally the Sonteras projects, the project or projects, you know, must be now two years ago, as well before the last election. I started being with George Dondaville when he was here and in chair of the Sonteras Association, and we talked about a whole, a number of different traffic and pedestrian improvements that could be done to the Sun Terras community. I think that has been an underserved community for a long time and needs attention for all the reasons that been mentioned by Councilman Kramer and others. And I would put that up near the top of the list and then as far as River Park is I haven't seen what they send in as a late proposal but We do separately through the CRA have Set up projects that we're doing in River Park As far as improvements are concerned, including street improvements. So I would just, you know, maybe there's, we ought to just look at it perhaps from a broader standpoint, the CR standpoint as well as this standpoint in terms of how we fund it. Finally, on complete streets, you know, as Mr. Ernstine went through his presentation and walked through the policy, which I had not gone back and looked at for a while. I was struck by what a thoughtful and sound policy it was. And I don't know who was on council back in 2015 when that passed, but some smart people must have was on council back in 2015 when that passed, but they, some smart people must put on council back then, who put that policy together. Now that came to us, but okay. But seriously, that policy makes a lot of sense. Because there's two important words in it, two very important words that we should do this where practical. Where practical. And so on any project, that's what staff and all of the council should be looking at. You know, it's not just a one-size-fits-all. And it doesn't mean you have to do all elements of complete streets on every road. You should look at it and I think Mr. Orinstein made those comments. Look at it in a individualistic way as to what makes sense and sometimes maybe nothing makes sense. But I think the policy is a policy that is sound and we should continue to have it. As part of the Park Shore Association, they had asked to see about the incomplete street on Creighton Road and we told them that that that wouldn't be possible because of the funding unless we got grants. I said because it'd be millions and millions of dollars due to relocating the Valley gutters, the people's driveway, so looking at all this, so that would be as far as we can sit or if you know it was out of the picture unless we have state grants or some other funding. Source. Yeah, yeah, to my point about practicality. All right, and that's all I have mayor. Thank you Thank you. I have vice mayor Thank you First of all how long is the city of Naples supported the complete streets program? I see the floor to statute I see the city of Naples Code but when did that start happening? Well, that was adopted in 2015. That was the point. That's when it was implemented through the city. Okay. We're talking about complete streets. We're also talking about we've been shown a list of decisions needing to be made related to sidewalks and things like that. So, and I'm going to make a quick comment on a few of them. I want to go back to Central Avenue. This is Central Avenue, it was the reason I'm even serving on City Council. And what happened there in Central Avenue, if you guys recall, there used to not be a median right there on Central Avenue as you approach 41, right? So, landscapers, all the residents back in Port Royal and Old Naples would come down Central Avenue and make a left into the 7-Eleven. Well, we figured somehow that it was in everyone's best interest to put a median there and let's cut off that access and instead force everyone that wanted to go to a retailer like 7-11 force them over between winds, right, on first Avenue South, on North, force them down that road, let's put them on to 41, which isn't busy enough. Make them turn right and then make a right turn into 7-Eleventy, yet fuel, okay? So, and by the way, there were other businesses down central, Rick Johnson, tire, you remember them? They're gone now. Other businesses that were going to be negatively impacted by our decisions on this complete streets thing. And how much was that business impacted? Well, I can tell you that some other time. But it's not about me. It's not about my business. My point is this. When we look at making decisions or adopting a policy, let's make sure that we have some wiggle room there for practicality. All right, and there's a lot of practical reasons why I don't support some of those decisions. Now, one more thing. Does it make sense to continue to pour thousands of square feet of concrete in a community which floods? Here I'm talking about the possibility of adopting a policy, if we do. I think Councilman Chrisman was right on target where practical. We don't want to go down to an avenue where we say you know what, every street needs to have a sidewalk on both sides. We've got enough flooding issues. Let's make sure that we think critically about what's going to happen if we start pouring sidewalks on both sides of the street. Does that really contribute to resiliency? Or is it really a poor long-term solution for our communities? So just one of cautionous as we talk about sidewalks. Third street between central and first avenue south, that sidewalk or a lack of it, that's really strange, isn't it? How do we, since 2015, that's eight years, how did we even get in a place where a sidewalk ended? How does that, I don't really know, but it's just very strange to me. So I support continuing a sidewalk on that west side of the road. Villa's Escalante, Fifth Avenue South, the proposal of an eight foot sidewalk. Okay, so the discussion related to that is this volume of foot traffic for a certain distance. What happens at the end of that distance? You've heard me talk about a pig going through a python. That's almost like that. Think about it. You're going to widen it for some length and then it's going to shrink again. Why? Why? I don't understand. And where will it narrow again? I just don't get it. Street management practices. It would be helpful and I think others here on Council have already stated this. It would be helpful for Council to rely on staff to follow a matrix, provide consistency as people come to the community and they want to talk about speed tables. By the way, there's another naming right for speed tables. This is a poll. I'll talk to you about that some other time. But follow up with a matrix. Provide consistency. Allow council to address the exceptions. But have progressive calming techniques. I think councilwoman Petronoff mentioned it but there's a there's a way to address this and we go through it and we use it the same practice every time we look at our streets. Yes. To your point many communities have specific traffic calming warrants and this dimension, the city of Sarasota was the first city in the country to have speed tables way back in 1992. So you're welcome. Yeah, thank you. The rest of it is this. On all these issues, I believe it was Councilman Chrisman that mentioned the budget. And you mentioned the budget in some of your materials here. It's on the slide that's before us now. The cost, but the word budget is at the very bottom. The cost of 165,100 versus a budget of 150,000. Like everything else, my ask is that we have a priority list, that we have it ranked, that we have safety first. If we don't have a sidewalk and we're forcing people out on the street, that probably hits one of my safety things and should hit all of our safety things when it comes to our priorities on where we're going to make improvements and spend our money. So that might have made a better, that's really all I, oh, one other thing. I want to put this in here because it wasn't mentioned. John Remington is a resident in this community. John Remington talks to me all the time about line of site issues. Now this is related to when a vehicle, a bicycle, or some other mobility device, even a pedestrian, one could say, they're at a stop sign and they need to be able to safely execute a decision about where they want to go. And if they can't see, if they have to keep creeping out into the street, before they can see around shrubbery that shouldn't be where it is or as high as it is or as thick as it is That's a problem. So we there is another safety issue and I'm just asking that we Identify these places and let's get them taken care of As we go we don't have to whip the horses and get everybody to do it all at once, but let's have a plan. That's all ahead. I'd like to just add if I may. We are our right away inspector. He's tasked with going out there and trying to make sure that any of those violations for the landscape hedges that are a line of sight are addressed sending letters frequently. We get a lot of pushback and there's a lot of what's happened since the storm is even some of those violations that we were trying to handle prior to the storm. They're placing it back out there and we're just we're trying to do what we can but I just want to state that we are we are attempting to navigate through that and following the landscape requirements that were. Thank you and I appreciate everything staff is doing. This is a lot. There's a lot of details here. So another thing we just have to effectively manage. Thank you. So with that being said, there is a lot here. In this first 21st, I think that has to be reevaluated from more than many ways starting at that top area. So Orchid is included here for speed tables, speed humps, correct? So you mentioned there are alternatives. What would the alternative be? You choose speed tables or? Well, yeah, there's different options. We could do islands. I'm not saying specifically for there, we would have to look to see what would be fitting. But in general, in general, there's ball douts that you can implement. There's traffic on the circles. Like, some of that would be an orphan. A little or once. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm going to ask you I mentioned one of the tactics that we had already tried to I guess that was implemented before was the Striping sometimes that visual visible line On helps to just low traffic down or it's it's intended to So that's another tool in the toolbox And feel free to add into anything else. I haven't added I Was just my one question about alternatives. So I have a feeling that Mr. Booterswar is going to be on the same page as I am. And that is that there are some details left in here that we need to talk about. And if we're looking at policies, is it possible for us to have a revisit with these potential projects? Pretty close. I'll's what I was thinking. Two things, one, I wanted to address the river park communication, I looked at the list of items that were presented. I don't think any of them rise to the level of needing to be on this matrix here. They look like operational items or sidewalk elevation issues signage landscaping things like that. So public works has it parks and parkways has it I think we can address all of those issues within operating budgets I wanted to take care of that for Riverside River Park River Park. I'm sorry correct. Yes So regarding this budget of 165 estimated, we have 150 plans. And we do have some carry over. And we have some carry over. I think what we're looking from you today is, you know, what should we delete? And if there's nothing to delete, we're going to move forward and get most of these things done. The one I would recommend we come back to you on, and it's right to the point of the questions you had, is Kokina. Let's come back to you similarly, like we did with 7th Avenue, to have further conversation. So you can turn this loose on some of these easy items to keep moving, but come back to you with some of these options that we began to explore today, and make that decision down the road. I don't know that I heard any concerns about any of these other items on here. So unless I miss something, we would proceed with planning for these other items. If there is something else that you'd like to pluck off this list, happy to come back. I guess I haven't had a chance. I know we're going into an executive session, but I think the details for me matter just in the, I agree that we don't want to sidewalk to end but central avenue to first avenue south. That's the, on third street. That's the gap. That's the third street one that we've discussed and that was on the list from last year as well. It's just where we've had some challenges with what side of the street and some push back on from the east side residents. There's some storm water issue related things we need to look at before just adding that sidewalk there has a small swale so we're thinking about maybe possibly putting an F curve along the road to bring the water around for just adding that sidewalk there. It has a small swale, so we're thinking about maybe possibly putting an F-curve along the road to bring the water around to first and to central, and then adding the sidewalk to that. So there's a little additional cost there if that needs to be done. Thank you, because those are the things that I'm thinking as I'm going through these items. And then, I mean, as far as priorities, I mean, I think we all heard that the sun terrace and needs to be addressed. And 26 is already going in. I mean, I don't know how you order your priorities. But I want to confirm this Marlon Drive in Sampeyper Street. I want to confirm this Marlin drive in San Piper Street. Is that the project that got pulled? No. What we have there is just a crosswalk. Right at the forway stop sign there, we agreed to putting a crosswalk there. Okay, just a cross across. That's right. It's a little and a little line down along the curb there so they can walk safely. So just to clarify, it is on the list as is a potential future. I know only because it was it was identified but with no, it there was no budget allocated for it on the list for the Marlin snook to San Piper with the winding of the shoulders that I think you probably had heard about from last year. Yes that's right. And that is not says potential future. It's a whole. If you would like to see that receipt that was an interest that was still pursued or urged by royal harbour so that is just as a point if you'd like to see that move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I just want to move forward. I will just tell you and we have a lot of new people in our community. Signage, multiple signage, proliferation of signage, and any aspect has always been a concern. And I look forward to having a conversation with you about the Sarasota roundabouts and how those crosswalks and the signage and people going left and right and straight and crosswalks in between and how we are moving forward with our streets. Absolutely, I'd be delighted, definitely. Okay. I don't know if that's the direction you needed. Yeah, I think we'll come back to you on the orchid item. We'll explore that. Did you hear me about 21st? About 21st. That's putting a sidewalk on the other side. And not that it's not. Yeah, we have. And that one does not. That one is not budgeted. That's another one that was just identified. There, we have. We don't. And that one does not, that one is not budgeted. Yeah. That's another one that was just identified. There are the quail, trees, and driveway issues there. So it wasn't budgeted. It's another one that there was interest. It was the only one really from Oculaine. We were trying to see if there we could get something out there from. I think it is of interest. It's not imminent. If there's not a number attached to it, it's not imminent and we're not proceeding. So the 21st Avenue, we wouldn't be proceeding. The Villa Escalante, we wouldn't be proceeding. And the Snook to San Piper item that says potential future, we will not be proceeding. And we will come back to you on Cocina San's orchid at $35,000. And Mayor, if I may, 21st Avenue South, the main issue there is the driveways. They fall so drastically. There's no way to meet the sidewalk and meet ADA standards with their slopes that they have. It'd be a lot of work on trying to lower their driveways to try to get the 2% cross-loop that were allowed on a sidewalk. And their driveways are falling, you know, 5% or greater, so that's the challenge that we have there. Including the opposite side of the street, because that's what I read this as the opposite side, just from Gordon to Marina. Just the small section there. That's what I understand it to be. Well originally they came up to us and wanted all the way down 21st. But we can look at that little section there. Yeah, I Okay, and I have one follow up with Vice Mayor and then we. Yeah, we'll conclude on Escalante. The ask was for seven to eight foot sidewalk. I felt to confirm what's on the other end closer to the Gulf, you know, the West end. The sidewalk that's there, obviously it's narrow and it's causing an issue and that's why there this request. What is the width of that sidewalk do west of where you're proposed? I believe that's five feet west of there. And so five feet. And what is the width of the existing sidewalk? Five feet. And also to your point on the north side of this stretch, I believe it's five feet as well, in that block. Okay, so I just wanted it for fairness. I needed to make sure I understood what we were trying to attach to. If that other northern or that western section was much wider than that five feet, then I can see some merit. But it's, if it's not adequate and it's causing problems, we probably need to address it sometime down the road. But I don't think that provides a good long term solution. Thank you. Mayor and council, there's one thing I'd like to know, orchid drive. Would you like me to go out there and determine how many speed tables we would need. So I can bring that back to you when we do that. Yes. Yes. Yes. I know you're. First, shall we? Or the. No. What I would prefer is the other alternatives, the examined evaluated first with speed tables being something that is a later option to consider. We'll bring the menu. Our toolbox. Thank you. Thank you for the clarification and thank you for your presentation and that concludes item 8a our update on pedestrian and bicycle master plan. Takes us at 1235 to our executive session. Oh, good afternoon, Mr. Brooks. Good afternoon. I'm here for agenda 9a to announce the executive session regarding horseshoe motor developers LLC versus City of Naples case number 23 CA 1708 20th judicial circuit in and for Collier County Florida At the June 5th public meeting the city attorney announced the desire for advice concerning settlement negotiations or strategy related to the litigation called horseshoe motors per city of Naples strategy related to the litigation called Horseshoe Motors per city of Naples. Pursuant to section 286.0118 Florida statutes, the City Council agreed to meet in private for an executive session as requested by the city attorney today at 12.30 p.m. during its City Council meeting on June 17, 2024 in the conference room in the second floor of City Hall. A public notice for the session was posted on June 7, 2024 by the City Clerk. Discussions during the executive session is limited to settlement negotiations or strategy related to litigation expenditures in this case. The executive session is recorded by a certified court reporter who records the times of commencement and termination of the session. All discussion and proceedings, the names of all persons present at any time and the names of all persons speaking. No person portion of the executive session is off the record. The court reporter's notes will be fully transcribed and filed with the city clerk within a reasonable time after the meeting. These notes will not be public records until the conclusion of the litigation at which time they will then be released. The executive session is expected to last approximately one hour. The following individuals will be present during the executive session. Mayor Theresa Heitman, council members Terry Hutchinson, Ray Christman, Beth Petronoff, Bill Kramer, Linda Peneman, Byrne Barton, city manager Jay Butishwar, city attorney Matt McConnell, Matthew McConnell, assistant city attorney Ralph Brooks and a representative from Dines Court reporting who has arrived. At the conclusion of the executive session the mayor will reopen the public meeting at which time the city council may take action concerning settlement negotiations if desired. With that we will see you on the second floor of city hall. With that we are on executive session. Thank you. you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you Okay, we're back from executive session. We're going back to our traffic study, which is item 8B. Thank you. 8B. Yes, Mayor. I'll make the opening comments on this. The reason why this is on your agenda today is quite frankly in response to the feedback that we received when the consultant gave, I believe it was a 30% update to the PAB and to counsel about this area wide or downtown wide traffic study and staff and I huddled after that meeting and we were concerned about a couple of things in particular the feedback that we received from the two bodies and we just felt that it was appropriate to come back to you to do a check-in before we get too much further down the road. As you all recall, this is a very expensive study in excess of $300,000 and there was some pre-work that was done that Allison will review when she goes over the timeline. But what we were hearing from the PAB and from you were concerns that we would end up with a deliverable that wasn't reflective of what you were looking for one and two, wasn't something that was going to be useful to us. We don't know that to be the case, but that concern expressed to us a reason for us to stop for a second and have this conversation with you all. We do not want to waste the taxpayers' money. And as you will see in the presentation, we haven't spent a great deal of money yet in this study, relatively speaking. And we wanted to have this conversation with you all today to make sure if we keep moving, we're all in the same page relative to the scope of work and what the deliverable will be and what we will use that deliverable for. If we're not on the same page, now is the time to regroup before we spend any more money and spend any more time, so we do get what it is you and the PAB and others are looking for before we spend any more money and spend any more time so we do get what it is you and the PAB and others are looking for Before we spend any more money. So with that I've asked Allison and Bob to Provide an update and a little bit of history and then we'd like to have a conversation with you and get some direction from you and then move forward Thank you mr. Booter schwar miss you direction from you and then move forward. Thank you Mr. Boehler-Twar. Mr. Liu, good afternoon. Mayor City Council, Alson Bicke, Deputy City Engineer for the Record. This discussion, I'm gonna start out with just kind of running over the current scope. So the current scope is to provide a cumulative analysis of the new development in the downtown area here In evaluation of approximately 22 new development projects This covers the location of the project as you can see on here the original scope Encompassed on the north south corridors, second street south, US 41, nine street, 10th street south, 12th street south, and good lit Frank Road. There's seven east west corridors, central avenue, first avenue, third avenue south, US 41, fifth avenue, sixth avenue south, and broad avenue south south and 35 intersections. Those 30 intersections in the east study area, there are 30 intersections in the east study area and five intersections in the west study area. So I think what was initially brought up was to encompass the area that was discussed last year was we developed the scope and corporate some of these key areas that were identified. This right here is a brief history of the events. You may recall that this was originally discussed December 13, 2022, PAB meeting. The PAB expressed interest and a comprehensive traffic study. And January 10, 2023. That's when staff was directed to secure an independent traffic firm to collect and analyze the area. In April of 2023, David Plummer and Associates was ranked as the top consultant by letter of interest. Phase one of the proposed traffic collection scope and fee was approved by Task Order due to urgency to collect the seasonal traffic data. So they were able to get out there and collect that information in advance of proceeding. And I'd like to pause for a second because this sequence of time is so important as a part of this conversation because I know a lot of the concern from PAB and perhaps even from you was related to the time, the date when the data was collected. And in April, we were moving as quick as we could. We had to go through a process of securing a firm, and we were running out of season. So we made a conscious decision and advised you all at that time that we were gonna try to capture this data before we got out of season. So we could begin using that. So we didn't have to wait until the following season. And I don't wanna get ahead of her timeline here, but you'll see that we didn't actually engage Plumber and Associates a couple months later. So we would have waited to do this collection. We would have definitely waited until the following season. So this is something that we talked about in detail, the timing of this data collection here in the month of April outside or in advance of this $300,000 contract with the traffic engineer. Thank you, John. So to continue on in May, we presented an update city council meeting with the negotiations and the draft cost estimate. We had requested or council had requested at that time you may recall there were several changes that were requested to be incorporated into that phase two or the design portion of the traffic study that we worked to update. June 5th, that's when we brought it back and the contract was approved for the traffic modeling and that's when they moved forward and started that design. They followed back up in April 10th of this year. After working through, we did have a lot of data that we had to provide to them and a lot that was happening behind the scenes in order for them to kind of move forward. So on April 10th, you may recall that there was a, they presented to the Planning and Advisory Board, and as Jay had iterated before, indicated is that the 30% update, and then it was presented to you last at the April 15th City Council meeting, the 30% design plans where they're at, or at least an update. I know there wasn't a lot of final analysis data at that time for you to consider. So as already provided, there is the, wanted to get into the budget and what was contracted originally in that traffic collection. We've, it was approximately $39,000 that's been fully expended at this point. We had them collect that data last year, trying to get that completed during season. That's fully been expended. We do have that data in our hands so we can still utilize that no matter what we decided to do. In the traffic study, the total amount of that contract was a little bit over $319,000. And of that, about $71,000 has been expended and build to the city so far. So, and we've asked them to pause their efforts in order to have this discussion after hearing some concerns and feedback that we've received as J. Had alluded to. So, as J. Head already mentioned, based on that feedback from the April PAV meeting and continued discussions as well as the April City Council meeting, there's clearly been some concerns related to the data, collection scope and the ultimate goal of the study. The traffic study is indicated to be about approximately 30% complete at this time. And so that's where we have posed concerns and varying visions of the path forward. So it was following the April 15th, 2024 city council meeting. I want to indicate that the city after hearing some of that feedback, we did provide March data collection that the city collects at our count stations to the consultant to compare and determine the difference in the peak hours. So we did provide, we have a little bit of data as well that we were able to use as comparison. Unfortunately, the city data is not collected for all locations within the traffic study area. The data for the peaks is found to vary by location, but it did give them a rough idea as to what the volume differences maybe. Had the peak hour was identified to be earlier in some locations and days, although this appeared to vary. So I think some of those concerns, as far as that peak hour and being that it was probably evident that it's earlier in the day, I think they were able to see that that was clear in some of those locations, so to address that. In discussions with the David Plummer team, we sat down a couple of weeks ago and as a team and discussed the concerns and they had indicated that they have approximately a 94% reliance on the data that was provided, taking all that in. So we kind of wanted to get to the meet and say, well, what sort of reliance should we be able to have on this data, whether we do go and get additional data? That was what they provided to us. So I wanted to relay that. And that was, we had the meeting, I guess, was on May 23rd. We discussed the status of the project and related concerns. We did request a memorandum to be submitted to provide an understanding of our data and overall project. And this was included in your package labeled as a summary. So if there is a desire to pause efforts in order to collect new data, I just want to relay that that would delay the final report. The current status and the time frame that we have allotted for this project is to wrap up at the end of this year. So I just want to share that. So we wish to really to discuss the goals and objectives presented in April and make sure that we are on track with your interest to assure that we're navigating in the right direction. So really this was to have a discussion with you all and like to hear your feedback in thoughts. Thank you. I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page of I think that the PAB's recommendation and the scope of work was right on target in that it was a larger area. I just want to confirm that they asked for a traffic impact of all the developments within the Naples Square plan development. And was that accomplished in the task? That was included. They had initially, I think, when it was established, they had asked to initially collect from what was asked of us was east to Goodlite for that boundary north up to central and down to six and over to 41. Was the original request as far as the extents and then to incorporate in some of the other impacts that we're receiving from outside of the city due to these new developments Which are which they are studying such as the projects coming in from the Davis triangle and the traffic flow that is impacting our city as as much as they can so I just want to know from what the original scope was as they can. So I just want to know from what the original scope was, what the concerns are. My concern might be different from anyone else up here or versus what PAB. And I just want to make sure we're not throwing out a study that has good information in it or that we can, as Mr. Boudre-Schwarz, and I and I just, he suggested, you can focus in on other areas if that's like, is what's missing right now. So in the scope, you confirmed that the 22 projects or the traffic impact and the Naples Square Plan development was complete. Well, they've received that information. The study is not complete. It's still underway, but you're pretty close, right? We're 30%. Yeah, we're 30% in. Mayor, can I address the scope question? Because this is something else when I went back and I listened to PAB. There was a lot of discussion about scope and scope evolution. And I just want to remind you all that we brought the initial scope to you. There was a little bit of training back and forth to try to get to a manageable cost and actually in your memo that Allison prepared, and May Council added five more elements to the scope. So you all wanted to look, and this is absolutely fine for you to do. You wanted to look at more than what the PAB was initially focused on. So the scope did change. But my understanding is that the scope didn't diminish in any way in terms of the area and the projects involved that PAB had requested, you just added some additional areas to it. So I just want to confirm that for everyone and for the record that you didn't remove anything in terms of area and projects at PAB had requested, you added to. Okay, I guess that's where I was going. Thank you for bringing it much quicker, but from what I understood is we eliminated because of the cost. I don't know how many projects. Not projects, do you? No, it wasn't. It was just a policy. Yeah, and the task in the policy was removed out of it. There was some more extensive tasks that were incorporated. Initially, we had to go through and eliminate what we determined to not be necessary. That was a higher cost item to keep it within a reasonable budget. But the policy was eliminated? The policy was not it wasn't eliminated, it was not incorporated in, so it was to be a future. We intend to do that in the future, but we said we do not want that as part of the study. He said, let's get moving with the study, we'll pick up the policy later. Okay. And the task? The which task was eliminated, is that what you're looking at? I think that there was more of the higher type of design. I think he had provided some more analysis using that fancier synchro analysis over what was, or I'm sorry, was a different micro design that was a little bit more costly. Among other things, I think some of the forecast instead of 20 year, I think we went to a 10 year outlook. So we have a lot of opinions swarming around. I really need to know from staff what they think they received so far at the 30% point. That can help us with the real reason that PAV started it. I know there's a concern that it took so long, which I'd like to know if we can make that process easier instead of it having to be so long once we put out for that RFP or RFQ. Maybe there was a good reason for that. But I think that there was a misunderstanding with PAB that Council actually took that this project and stalled it. It just disappeared. And I don't, I just want to correct the record. So that's not exactly what happened. So from your point of view And clearly understanding why PAB started this project because did you agree that it was a good project moving forward? I feel a little bit on the But I feel like the intention was there, the intent, perhaps. You know, I understand that they want more of a cumulative. Their interest was more an accumulative evaluation of our area, which was similar to what we did, which was more of a newer analysis of what we did from our 2017 master mobility study. So kind of an expansion and a newer update and revision to what we can do. I think that understanding that there's been a lot of, we're receiving and evaluating. There's a lot of major projects that are coming in that I think we just need to know what that impact is. And I think that's, and I feel from that standpoint that it is a good idea. I think that's really going to be coming out of it that I feel like is going to be a really good portion of this is going to be that policy standpoint. Because I feel like a lot of what they're looking at, I think they're very anxious to see the policy, what's coming out from that perspective. Because that's really going to be what we can impose and build into our program to evaluate concurrency. That's a lot of what they keep repetitively bringing up. And I think that's where I gather, I feel like, is really where they're in dress lies. And I think there is definitely value in that. I think you're absolutely right. So at least we're on the same page of what the intent was and what the two things that were important. And that's impact and concurrency and policy. So without continuing down a path or having impatience because we really need some good policy because we realize that we have larger traffic. We know that there's an impact. I mean, you don't have to do a study to see it. You drive it, you experience it. I'm trying to get to us making a good decision of not just saying, okay, forget about it because I think you agreed that there is good intent. It's just how are we going to go about giving you direction and proceeding so that we can get the most vital information, which are those three things that I just stated. So let me go to council, see what other, and they have, I have Kramer in them, Peniman, and then Petrano. Thank you very much. Hi, thanks. I was new to this particular party. And looking at it from my perspective, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though this you were tasked with finding some unit traffic study Created the plan for that hired a group to do that and so far everything that we've asked them to do has been done And but we're to a point of inflection where we either if we're changing shifting gears need to do it now before it's been too much money Is that? a point of inflection where we either if we're changing shifts and gears need to do it now before it's spent too much money is that. All right, we want to make sure what we want to make sure we're on track. We really have not received any deliverables. What was presented to you was really the deliverables that we have not. I haven't received any design. Anything other than what's been really been presented to date, so I can't comment. But otherwise we just want to make sure we're on track. Mayor, I just want to get to the heart of the matter and you can correct me if I'm wrong if there are other issues out there but what I'm hearing is related to the inputs, the data collection, the data that we collected back in early April 2023 is, you know, I think I heard someone, you know, say garbage in garbage out. And I think that's a good analogy, assuming that what was collected is garbage. We would end up in a bad place. The question that I can't answer is, is it garbage? You know, is that information, is that data that we collected in April not sufficient. You know the duration of time, the time during the day is it not sufficient. So the question that we're posing, if you believe it is not sufficient, should we pause and collect that data in February or March at different time intervals, at these same intersections, there's a cost to that. But so that's a question. But if you believe that the data we've collected early part of April, I think it was four to six PM at all of these intersections, is that what is the confidence rate you know, rate of that data in the final product that I think I heard 94% or something like that? That's the confidence level. If you feel that that is good, then we move forward because if we pause to collect more data, there's at least another $40,000 to do that because we know that's what it costs us the first time around. So that's one of those questions. And then the other to get to the mayor's point, if we do decide to pause, or maybe we're not pausing, but we want to accelerate and put back into this discussion about policy and criteria and some of these other things that we had decided to wait later to do, you know, we can do that now as well, but there's a cost to that. So those are the two big things that I think we wanted to get some feedback from you today. Well, I will say that my observation is there's a distrust of traffic studies in general that I didn't even know that existed till I came here. What I've heard is, well, there's never anything wrong, you know, like they don't trust whoever's presenting the material. People in general. And then, but my thought is, my assumption is, and what I've been told, tell me if this is correct, there's an industry standard for how you do these. The process is all have an industry standard. And whoever we hire is going to follow that industry standard. I suppose unless we direct them otherwise. And so when you say garbage, you know garbage out, if we're following protocols and industry standards, then how would it change? You're going to get what you're going to get if they do the same things. And the argument that I even heard from some of the public was, well those are the wrong streets or the wrong time to the whatever. And I'm like, well, you can say that, but again, there's protocols to all of this and an entire science behind it. And I'm not sure that people they're fussing about it, do that for a living. So, am I right? Are there industry standards in? Is it true that whoever we hire is going to follow those same standards, benchmarks and protocols? Is that the case? Yes. Okay. That's all. Council Member Penamaine. Councilmember Pindamann. One of my concerns was that we did this during peak season. And in looking at, on my particular printout is page 1811, 1811. It appears as though, let me bore you to tears here, that the travel demand modeling, developing future traffic volumes and preparing analysis occurred from January to May of 2024. Is that correct? Did that occur? The data collection? Yeah. I've got DTNA Project Schedule and Timeline. And according to this timeline, if we followed the timeline, that traveled the man modeling, developing future traffic volumes, preparing analysis networks was to happen. Was to happen between January and May of 24. It was in 2023 when they collected the volumes in April. Was it during peak season? It was well and that's it was early April which that's where some it's really borderline. We typically try to collect data earlier in assuming it's in March or so. I know Dave, I see him, he just hopped up here, but we do just hopped up there. Dave, we're very safe traffic. This is the heart of the matter. Yeah, did we go over the schedule or not? We were late. We made that very clear that, you know, we were starting with this process. We didn't have the consultant on board. We were running out of time. Should we go ahead and collect that data while we had some time? We did. And we did as fast as we could, which was the first week of April. Was that ideal? 23. You know, the question is, is that time period flawed? Is it not sufficient? That's the question, because we spent $40,000 to collect that data. And that's the question. And that's one of the questions posed. If you all think that that was wasted money, wasted time, and we should do this in February or March, instead, then that's the direction we're going to need. Well, I'm sorry, but go ahead. I just want to say ideally, we collect peak hour peak season and beginning of March to mid-March. And what we determine the end of season, which this was collected prior to, it's either whichever comes first, Easter or tax day. So, but this was collected before that. So, and like they mentioned, it's 94%, 94% accuracy. So, do we wanna spend the additional funding for six, four percent to see if it's accurate or not? Okay. 6% to see if it's accurate or not. Okay. Well, again, I'm kind of relying on this. Yeah. What slide number are you on? Oh, that's such a good question. 420. Thank you. What I have is DTNA project schedule and timeline and out at the bottom there are a bunch of little squares and From their presentation. Yes. Yeah, so we're we're June of 2024 right? Okay, so the third The fourth box says processing of materials in inventory June 23 to February 24 Did we complete that Then go ahead then the next box talks about travel demand modeling, which means we would have captured peak season Preparing analysis that was to be completed by May of 2024 Yeah, I see we still have traffic operational analysis from March until July of 2024. And we still have traffic operational analysis from March until July of 2024. So I'll be in the middle of the process. No, I see what you're saying. So the analysis is happening during those periods. Not the data collection. Data collection already happened. The dates that you're looking at is the work that they're doing using the data that was collected last time. So we're making decisions based on information we don't yet have and is do us. No, they're doing their analysis of the data that was collected the first week of April of 2023. They're doing that now. Yes. So we're still waiting for an analysis. But the question is, did we have the right times? And I can't say that's for all of the study area. I mean, I don't know that to be true. When PAB or even we were discussing it, that maybe on 10th, it was the wrong time. Was it the wrong time throughout the whole study? I want us to be very careful with where we're going with this, what we have and what we really want and whether we're taking a pause for no reason because we don't have what we want. And that's why we want to make sure you have confidence. We don't want to move forward with the data if you don't have confidence in that data. Now, that's why we also asked them the question, what would they expect the differential to be? And they were saying they expected it's about 94% accurate. Who's there? The consultant. OK, thank you. What's the data reliance? And they said they would estimate you know up to about 6% Okay, so the data that we've collected if I'm because I want to be with you on the same page is now going to be analyzed and it was supposed to be from June The analysis has until July of 2024 so we're still analyzing the data. If I understand it correctly. Right, starting in January to May. No, this actually says the analysis is going to be done March till July of 2024. Correct, but we've paused them for right now. We have temporarily paused that. Okay. But everyone's on the same page. I'm asking, is everyone on the same page is so far as this timeline is concerned? And if so, we're, we've paused it, I don't know what for. But we've got till July, it's coming on, it's on our backside, but how much more analysis do we need to do? Can we complete this by what this suggests that we should July of 2024? And we complete the analysis because we haven't told them to do it. They can and I think that part of this with having a bit of a pause, it will give us to they're not completing and wrapping up, you know, with the, because I think that part of this with having a bit of a pause it will give us so they're not completing and wrapping up You know with the because I think the final report was July to August So I think we were hoping if there was any more interest if they needed to present to you all again Or before the PAV that there's that time frame that's built into there because the actual date for the The commitments for this This contract is until the end of the year date for the commitments for this contract is until the end of this year. So if we need to extend it a little bit further to make sure that there's any other discussions that need to be have or presentations, it's built in so we can carry back on from after summer break. Well, we're on target here so far as I can tell. Now let me ask you this and do I assume that was council the only one that looked at this proposal or did it was shared with the PAB. I believe PAB saw this presentation and then you did on April 15th. They did receive the presentation. Yes. They did. So they're aware of this timeline. Yes. Okay. I failed to see what the problem is here. We're right on targets as far as I can tell if we're analyzing the data that we received. We have until we have what a few days to complete that. And then after that, come recommendations and a final report and policy recommendation. So I don't understand what the problem is here. We, you know, our wheels are solidly on the track and we're moving forward. So I'm not sure what the problem is. That's all I have to say. Yeah, I think the problem is the concern that we're hearing that the cargo on your train is the wrong cargo. And it's the data. That's what I'm hearing. I'm hearing that there are concerns about the data that was collected that first week of April, the foreeaster and the fourth tax day. That was too late in the season. I see. And that's our concern. I mean, we take this very seriously. It's a lot of money. And we're working for peak times. I understand that very quickly. Peak times, not necessarily peak season. Let's understand the difference here. Peak times of the day. Peak hour and peak season. Right. And peak season. So they're saying that April could have been just a smidge outside of what is traditionally known as peak season. Correct. Yes. And we acknowledge that. Yes. The question is, were we able to pull enough data to be able to extrapolate and use in this analysis and they're telling us that at 94% confidence level, yes. Okay. Do we have any studies previously that we could harken back to because an awful lot of studies have been done on Highway 41. A lot of data, it seems to me, that is archived. I understand that probably traffic has increased somewhat, but at least it would give us a benchmark as to what traffic looks like during peak season. And I believe we've got those studies somewhere. We have, as I mentioned before, the 2017 master mobility study did do an analysis of this, really, of the majority of this area. And so that was part of their scope to evaluate, take that information as well. We actually have the, I think the traffic data that was collected at that time as well. Well, that may be a little bit. It is definitely a good idea. That could be arguably the little out of Jake. All right. So we're still on the track here. I just wish as you're speaking. So we might be on track. Our staff really knows how to guide us, I think, because it is the reason they created this study was because the corridor was being impacted by developments and we didn't have the policies to address it. So if we did it in 2017, have we compared that information? Because I mean, it may be a bit more, but I bet it's pretty close. I mean, on target. But if it's OK, I'll let. Sure. Councillor, may I want to make a quick comment? Turn your mic on, please. Thanks. New system. Councillor, if I may, I'd like to make a quick comment. Turn your mic on, please. Thanks. New system. Council, if I may, I'd like to make a quick comment. So in terms of traffic studies, it's fairly routine to take it outside of peak season. Most traffic studies, you just don't have the length of time to wait to get to peak season. So what's done is that every week of the year there's a peak season conversion factor. F-D-O-T has thousands of counters all over the state constantly getting data so they can get a reliable comparison between that particular week when you got the data and the peak of the peak. So what we're saying is that even though it's outside the peak of the peak, you can still make adjustments to make an accurate analysis and that's the professional standard. So the data is good enough to move forward with and complete the study if that's to everyone's satisfaction. Thank you. Well, that's very helpful because based on the conversation that we've just had, it appears as though we have accomplished and are on target with everything we agreed to do in this person's mind. And given what was just added I'm not sure what the problem is here so thank you very much. So I just want to push the comment button policy recommendations won't happen until August or September of 2024 this year. That's right this year. So we will be getting policy recommended. The policy is not we have not negotiated at this point the policy. That was removed out of the scope of work when we were negotiating. And we said let's move forward with the actual study. So we're at the traffic operation analysis. What we really want to know is what they're recommending. Yes. And we put a pause on that. Correct. With this data concern and scope. With the final report and policies being given in August, September. Yes. Yes. And was PAB clear on that? I know they had concerns about the data and peak season on times. But were they clear on that they were going to re-receiving information so that it could help in when we're evaluating projects and the impact of those projects? As far as receiving the policy at a future date? No, understanding that what I just reviewed that's in this piece, what's coming, and that they would be receiving policy recommendations by August or September. I believe so. It was what was presented. They had the same presentation as what you all did, but I don't think that they made it all the way through, unfortunately. I realize that. I'm just trying to make sure communication is clear among all parties and trying to achieve their goals and our objectives of being able to address impacts of traffic so are you complete. Let me just run through it one more time, as I understand it, this was presented both to us and to the PAB. We approved it, they approved it. And in there was, whatever this is, this page, that sets forth a timeline for when things will be done. Now I'm assuming they agreed to that. I'm assuming we agreed to that. And at this point in time, we are on target. Am I'm assuming they agreed to that. I'm assuming we agreed to that. And at this point in time we are on target, am I close to being where we are at this point in time? Yes. Okay. That's all I need to know. It's just the data. Do we collect the data in the right time? And we do not have a cost to do the policy yet. We will have to negotiate that policy because you want to do this traffic study. You want to have an end to it. What are we getting out of this and it would be a policy? Okay. So I would have, you know, had I seen this, I might have said it would be nice. I think maybe to collect data during peak season, but given the fact that all eyes were on this, all saw the same information. And peaks, he's never surfaced. We went with what everybody approved. Does that be close to correct? Yes. Okay, thank you. Council member Petronov. Yes, thank you. I had a chance to read three sections of the Com plan, including the chapter 48 concurrency management program and monitoring requirements. And the PAB, we do have policies in place for this. And the PAB shall be the advisory board responsible for levels of service on our roads and our standards. And the big, you know, going up 10,000 feet on what this project was all about is we were getting intense development in that area from both from across the street and within the PD. And we were wondering have we reached capacity? There is a concept that I never read that word in the entire scope of this project on carrying capacity and service standards to the residents. I mean, part of it is, if these policies are pretty clear, If the measured level of service is two levels below the adopted level of service, the city shall cease issuing development orders. I mean, that's as strong as, you know, that's section four that is in our code today. It says, you know, the public hearing each year, and I've been on council two and a half years now. After the annual council have been made and analyzed, the planning advisory board will hold a public hearing. Where it will discuss the current and adopted level of services of traffic circulation. An annual report of the service shall be available to the board in the public five days before the public hearing. I don't believe we've been doing that unless I don't believe we've been doing that unless, I mean, I don't think we have been doing that. And so we're in this pickle in this area because you can feel the traffic there. People see these petitions where these big box retailers are being proposed and condos and grocery stores, et cetera. And this is a problem. So the purpose of the report, the questions we're trying to answer, I think should go on the front page of this report. And I think we do have the data to 94% confidence level. And I'm surprised they can't extrapolate. And I think you're probably alluding to that with F that with F dot where they can extrapolate to a peak peak and And so I think we've got that covered and I've got confidence in the data there But I think we ought to put on there. What is the key question we are trying to answer is you know what are we at capacity in that corridor and are there different What are we at capacity in that corridor? And are there different things that we can do on our roads to relieve some of the constraint that people are experiencing in that section where they're having to sit there through three lights to do it. And what are our, and then start doing this thing that we have never been doing, that we haven't done for many years, I think, on having the PAB take a look at our service standards and development and saying what is the appropriate service level for our community. So I think we are going to move ahead but I think we ought to have very tight constraints on our very tight questions that we want to have answered coming out of that report and I think we can still do that. So I think the policies are already in here. So given what Councilwoman Petronov just said, given the timeline that Councilmember Pinneman went over, knowing that the comp plan needs to be updated for our policies, will we be We be able to have PAV come back at their first meeting in August and be able to review the data to be able to make some policy moving forward. I don't believe so. I don't think we're going to be ready based on the pause and where we're at in the schedule here. Well, the pause just happened, correct? I mean, two weeks ago at the PAV meeting? No, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we sat down and after that meeting and had some discussions and said, we, we understand that there's some concern. So we said, let's, let's kind of pause. And then we, we sat down in, in April, or I mean, may. And, great. And and then we sat down in April or I mean May and and that's sorry you've lost me on the We have to flip them on we've slipped them on right and Zephyr yeah I think so that's fine I think we have the raw material to proceed and but I think we ought to be thinking about what what is the output of this report what questions from you know what exactly are we going to do? Is it actionable? Okay, we've got this data. We're going to get a report. What questions are we trying to answer? And one of the questions in my mind and the question that's been circulating in the community is in that corner, can we build anymore? Are we at capacity? Are we at a caring capacity? And remember the scope is not just that corner, but it's in several intersections. That's why I don't want us to get home to in on one area when this is a much larger traffic study. The project scope doesn't home in on one area. The system-way ride traffic assessment is our north-south corridors and east-west corridors, and they name the streets. 35 intersections. And then an analysis that will develop future traffic, future levels of service, measures of effectiveness, future improvement needs, testing of improvement alternatives, and final recommendations. So it's all right here in the scope. Right. I just think that we had some communication problems and some anxiety with, are we getting what we want because they weren't the correct hours of traffic and of season. So that's been cleared up. And now we understand that we're looking towards policy, but your staff saying that that's not part of the scope of the 300,000. Not in our current contract. And we only have $30,000 left in that current contract. No, no. What is it? We have, we're only about 30 here to see. 30% in. Yes, so we've only expended $71,319,000. So it would be really great after I get through all of council that you are able to guide us with what we have knowing what we want and where we need to go on how we make these changes. Instead of us, every one of us having a different opinion, you're the experts. We need you to guide us, you get it. You get it. Okay. Thank you, councilmember Petrov. Let me just finish my thoughts on this. So, you know, as you, you're the experts at this, then you know what questions we're asking on and what we're, you know, what we're trying to, what we are trying to solve for. It is development and what our caring capacity is and what our current traffic is. And you know, are we at our capacity? Well, that happened a long time ago. Yeah. But it is in our codes. It is in our comprehensive plan that we are allowed to be doing it and we have failed to do it. I'll just add to that and then I want to go because I have people in the queue. Well if we have that information, we haven't done anything with that information because we're okay with having D enough Streets what can we do? Okay, we've asked through the CRA to have a conversation with the CRA in that particular area in order to find out what their plans are for the future for what isn't out of the ground So we're covering that if you'll remember in our CRA meeting we made that request So then we'll be covering ground for what hasn't come out of the, covering our territory as to what hasn't come out of the ground at that point in time. Once we get that information. So we'll have a bigger picture. I think that's the three, that's some of the projects they included. But Council Member Christen, I want you to come firm that with me for me, Stan. Thank you. So as you all know, or at least those who were on council last year, I was never enthusiastic with this project to begin with. I thought it was poorly scoped and very fuzzy and ambiguous. That's not the right word, amorphous in terms of what we were trying to achieve. And we were chasing a holy grail that I was unsure we could ever catch. Having said that, and I still feel that way. Having said that, I think a couple of things. Number one, I think the traffic analysis we did back in April of 2023 should be sufficient based on what we've heard today. I mean, I think it was still in season. It apparently has a 94% confidence rate associated with it. And as we heard from Mr. Orrenstein, there's ways to do if we want to make adjustments to peak season February or March we could do that. I don't think it's worth starting all that all over again and if we wanted to start it all again we'd have to put a pause on this whole effort until next February or March anyway. And, you know, so I'm comfortable with the data we have. Number two, if we want to have any usefulness to this study at all, we need to have a component to it that's called policy recommendations, which we did not include for, I think, for budgetary reasons the first time around when we approved this study over a year ago. But, you know, we ought to, you want to make any decision today, but we, you know, if we don't have policy recommendations, what's the point? And these are subject matter experts, David Palmer, and that's what we want. After they finish all the other work that Councilwoman Peniman was referencing. Number three, I think we have to be careful when we talk about this term carrying capacity. It's not a scientific term or, you know, it's, there's not a city, a region, or a community in America that doesn't have enormous traffic problems and is also at all successful economically. I mean, if you want to go to Huntington, West Virginia just to pick a town that somebody referred to earlier, maybe they don't have caring capacity issues or good traffic problems. If you want to go to Youngstown, Ohio, no, no, that's fine there too. But any place in America, in the world for that matter, that is, you know, if you want to look at caring capacity of the road system, they're all these enoughs. They're all these enoughs. Any place that it has any kind of a vibrancy and economy that is doing anything, that's what you have. And of course, depending on the community, look at Naples, it also depends on not just time of day, but month of the year when you have seasonality, like we do here, but even in northern cities, you still have seasonality when schools out in the summer and so on. So this is life, and this is what goes on. So this is life and this is what goes on. And I think that personally, I think that believing that we can have levels of service for our roads and carrying capacity numbers that are precise and maybe we can have that or we can, the consensus kind of grievous to what that is But we're a city within a much bigger county and we have those kinds of impacts In terms of people coming in and through our town We have projects occurring just outside the city boundaries that we have no control over that have have impacts on us and it's You know if, if we're, at least some of us are driving, trying to get to, is to have the ability to say no to development based on road carrying capacity, I think that it's a, that's a challenging thing. that I don't think has been successful anywhere I know about. And I think that it's problematic. What I hope we would do at the beginning of this study process was to put our money into doing traffic analysis of specific specific developments such as the fifth avenue south development where I you know what kind of an impact is that going to have On our road system and I think when you look at a specific development and its impact on traffic based on the On the uses that are proposed there. Grocery stores or whatever it might be, you can then have the ability to have, you can have the ability to try to influence and make decisions around the intensity and density of that development and its impact on traffic that could be a positive thing in terms of the community. But when you start looking at this on this grand scale, it becomes very, very difficult, I think, to make policy decisions overall, as opposed to development specific decisions. Councilman, we are supposed to receive policy recommendations in August or September. But as we've been said, we have not approved that task order. So we have to act to approve that as being part of the scope of work. But wait, so you bring up a good point. So what's left in the scope of work? Do we really need to do and changing that scope of work to achieve our policy faster? So they're in the stages right now they've been collecting, they've been working through that data and evaluation, working on their model. So they're going to be providing that model to us and providing some recommendations for improvements that we can see that could be applied to our road system. And as far as the policy standpoint, again that would be an additional task that they would need to be. Well, it's not additional. It's part of the scope. Yeah, I think it's, I'm sorry, I think it's misleading in the presentation. Oh, that's shows. And I would assume the same thing. I see in this linear timeline policy recommendations. And I'm not sure why that's all that slide it's a little bit confusing. Yes, they originally have presented they provided some numbers they've from the GICO we've kind of been on the same page that we've are the intention is that we want to have the policy completed so I think that they were just expecting that that's going to take you back and we'll be working through that as we finish the traffic analysis. I apologize. Yeah, so that was my only point. I mean, I think we have to have policy recommendations. If we're going to go forward with this study, we need to add at the additional cost, whatever it is, policy recommendations for this study to have any usefulness at all. And I would be for that given. You know, I'm for continuing with this study, getting it done, adding the policy recommendation section, and then just seeing what it is. All I was saying in addition to that was that, I think that it is not going to provide, it's not going to give us the blueprint that I think some people are looking for, where we can look at this study once it's done and say, okay, we're going to say yes to that development and no to that development, it just, it isn't going to do that. And I don't think there's really anything that can, other than an intensive deep dive into each development, how much traffic is it going to generate and are there things we want to do to limit the density or intensity of that development because it is going to mean too many negative impacts on our road system. And I think you have to look at it development by development. Mayor Realquid just because it's a contextual, the policy recommendations and now, right, this is an old number that we collectively decided to eliminate from this contract was a total of $18,000 in change. That was task number 10. So it's not a big number, and but we were looking at ways as a team here to try to minimize the cost, and we knew that we were gonna be doing this sequentially, collect the data, do the analysis, prepare the report, and then tackle recommendations related to policies. So I just wanted to put that out as a part of the conversation for context purposes. That might have been the wrong thing to cut based on the price. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Council Member, President Price-Mayer. Yeah, just real quickly, and I'll be quick here. First of all, I think for us, and it's probably already been said, but I just maybe put it in different words, what will our residents experience with traffic when we are built out or using current land development zoning, right? I mean, what we have on the books once it gets built out, or even as we're advancing toward building out, what obstacles are, what friction points, what obstacles are we facing for our community? So that's of interest. That's what I've heard from our community. And I wrote up here basically the same, even with not being built out, new development and redevelopment. As we see that going on, we've got a lot of projects in the pipeline. Where are we creating the friction points? In the materials, in the conversation, I think it's been said that there's the data that's been collected, has 94% accuracy, 6% miss. You know, when we buy locations to build businesses, we look at traffic. And then we apply a formula that helps us understand that traffic in peak times, right? So that we understand how much business that's gonna generate. So even though it's at 94%, and we haven't heard from the experts, but I believe that they do have a way to extrapolate, right? And tell us what we're gonna be facing. Now, in the agenda, or memoranda, March data has been provided to the consultant. That's what I read. Yes, we've provided our data. Okay, so when we talk about what data, well it's March data, but it also says data has not been collected for all locations. I don't know which locations are missing, but that kind of raises my flag. And then just realize that some point petitioners will be receiving PAB or council guidance based on this study, based on this data. And if you're okay making decisions to petitioners and not having a complete study done just realize what we might be facing. So what's missing? Well if the traffic counts have been missed on certain streets and we just heard that right? No. No. It was something. Data is missing. No let, let's make sure all on the same page here. The data you're referring to is the data that Dave and his team is collecting all the time. It's supplemental to all of the intersection that we're, that we're, so we've covered all. We've covered them all in that April, first week of April, 2023. The data that Dave provided was supplemental. It was to cross, cut across reference. Got it. The intersection that we've got. That's clarification that I needed because the memo said data has not been collected for all locations. So, we've collected data on all the locations. That's good. So, when I take a look at this quickly, again, if we had missed data collection on certain streets, that's a flag flag that's a big flag. If projects under development were missed like whoever the consultant is didn't consider the big project that data strangle that's a problem. If they missed other big projects in our community that's a problem. If data collection was compromised due to traffic diversions or equipment malfunction, that's a problem. And if data's been compromised due to lost data, that's a problem. I don't think we're dealing with any of that. I haven't heard that. So I believe that we should move forward. I do believe that we should expect some policy guidance recommendations. You know, to Councilman Christmas Point. If you don't get that, you know, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. I think that's all I had, man. Yes, thank you. I don't just want to be clear. We always have public comment. If the clerk has not notified me a public comment and I don't see anyone in the room, there are no public speakers. We need to wrap this up in direction. Mr. Witterschor, I think that you can take this, make this analysis, continue on where we're going to achieve our policy. Do you want to talk about that? I think we're hearing, and I'm saying this out loud to solicit any pushback that is in conflict with what I'm about to say. I think we have heard from you that the data that was collected for all of the intersections that we're studying, although not ideal, is sufficient. There's weightics, there's wasics, extrapolated. We have some data that we collect on a frequent basis that we're going to use to kind of reconcile and we move forward. We pick to kind of reconcile. And we move forward. We pick up where we left off. We move forward. And then we'll provide an update on the timeline for you for presentations to PAB and to council. So if I'm not hearing any pushback, we're going to unpause and keep moving. The one recommendation that I do have for you is related to the policies piece. I think we may have been Pennywise. For $18,000, maybe it's $20,000. You know, my question to you is should we, and I conferred with our CFO, if you believe that we should go ahead and engage that piece now and begin doing the work, which also reviews a reconciliation with our comprehensive plan or concurrency section, that's all part of this work to develop these recommendations. Tell us that you want us to do that and we'll go ahead and approve that task order and move forward and spend that $18,000, it might be $20,000 now. I don't know if you have an update. Yeah, we really didn't get a chance to that was just our original rough giraffe. So we really didn't get a chance to critique and look at the actual scope of that. So it may I expect it to actually be a little bit higher than that number, but hopefully it's in that ballpark. So if you want to give us approval up to $25,000 to proceed with that, so we don't lose any time on break. We'll do that if it's more than that. I'll check with the mayor and we can always ratify it as come this fall. But we know that time is of the essence. This is urgent and these policy recommendations, that's the ending part of this, is what are we changing in response to the new information we're learning through this process? This makes it actionable, which makes me a lot more comfortable with the return on investment. I'll reason for that. No reason to do a study if we're going to put it on the shelf and not unilizing. So I think is there anyone opposed to what Mr. Boudrechevard has summarized for us? I think we maybe you need a motion that we the motion is that we would prefer we would prefer that the city come up with policy recommendations sometime between August and September of 2024 as the scope suggests. I think a motion will be appropriate not to exceed a certain dollar amount. Well you have your procurement. Okay not to exceed $35,000. Not to exceed $35,000. Thank you for the motion, Council Member Piniman. Second. I have a second by Council Member Petr enough. All in favor, signed by I. Aye. Opposed? That was easy. Thank you, staff. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, that concludes our traffic study, which is 8B. We're now moving to our- Mayor, I don't know if we addressed 9B. I may have missed it that there was no action required. Okay. Yeah, usually we announce it that we're not taking any action. Okay. Okay. All right. I'm sorry. If that's what, Matthew McConnell, Mayor, if that's what the product protocol is, then you could just announce 9B, say no action, and move on to 9D. But I do remember you. Yeah. Yeah. So I will recognize that we're in, what do people do? I'll recognize that we are in executive session for 9A. Went and then came back. And we are at 9B. There's no action to be taken, which takes us to item 90. Thank you, Mayor. 9D is a discussion that we need to have regarding maximum millage rate as Gary Young approaches the podium. I just want to do a quick time check. We had advertised a special CRA meeting to begin at 3 p.m. Or immediately thereafter the City Council meeting. So if there's anyone tuning in for the specials, the exciting special CRA meeting, we are still in the special City Council meeting. Thank you, good afternoon, Mr. Young. Good afternoon, Mayor, again, Gary Young, Deputy City Manager of CFO. David, could you bring up the presentation, it's nine, space D. This one is there if need be, but there should be another 90. It's the, there's a space in it it so it's above it. Sorry about that. It's up to. Thank you and I apologize for the space. All right. So as you know, Mayor, it's that time of year again where we will be. Um, you know, we the county appraiser gave us our values, which he's obligated to do by June 1st. We got him on May 27th. Um, and this is a presentation of both where property values went, uh, where we are on millage. And then this is the meeting whereby we ask you to let us know what the maximum millage that you want to have pre-published because it takes a few more hoops to jump through if we don't do it now and so we definitely want to have the maximum millage discussion. So with that being said, I'm going to go through a few slides. There's a couple of them I want to read. I do have the ability and David had alluded to it. I put a maximum of mill's discussion in there because in two of the slides I discussed that the max that going up above 1.17 which was last year's milledrate would require a unanimous vote. And so I in your packet there is a document that indicates that and I have that available if we want to pull it up at some point but I make reference to it in two slides here but I did want to emphasize that on before I began the presentation and then in addition to that should you have a desire to go above 1.17 I have an Excel file that the David could pull up and we can talk about what one basis point is what two basis or any change you wanted and I would just change one so I know it automatically calculate through. So I just wanted to say that for you. So I'd like to get through the presentation part and the legalese parts of it, but we can do as much work as we need to do to get you to where you want to be. So again, the purpose of this presentation is to agree on the not to exceed, milligrate. The general fund currently is 1.17. We changed it last year post-e-in. It went from 1.15 to 1.17. The East Naples Bay Taxing District is currently at 0.50. And it is at the maximum allowed. And given, if you recall, most recently, we reloaned them in additional $1 million for the Dredging Project. And they certainly have enough money to retire their debt on a annual basis and actually accelerate that. But there's no reason to reduce it given the outstanding obligation they have to the city. And then, Moring's Bay is currently 0.0125, which is the lowest rate possible the public. And then more is, currently 0.0125, which is the lowest rate possible to keep the district open with no specific purpose that it's being set aside for a future. But there's no immediate cost now about the only thing they spend money on, you do about 40,000-year annually for some signage and different things. So the preliminary taxable values, the general fund went up 10.16 percent. It went from 34 billion six to 38162. E.S. Naples Bay grew by 9.78. Moring's Bay 17.73. And the CRA went up 20.28. Now this is the preliminary data and the final data up 20.28. Now this is the preliminary data and the final data would be given to us by July 1st. So where does that leave us from over time? And you go back to last year, we were coming off a 16.2% increase in property values, went up 10.98 for last year's budget, and now it's going up potentially 10.16 with preliminary numbers. That also gives you a look at the milled rate over time, and you go back to 2007, the highest it's ever been is 1.240, and the lowest was 1.0997. The only contraction occurred in 2008, and at least over this time, and that gives you an idea of where our millage rate has come and gone. Now, I'll remind you that the steps we took last year was post-Arma. We had increased the rate from 1.15 to 1.18. And then after the two-year period where we were covered from Irma, we dropped it back down to 1.15 and the milligrate last year was 1.17 as I previously indicated. As far as fund balance goes, fund balance, you know, I mentioned this, I think, in the capital improvement discussion. Fund balance has been stable, has been considerably going up. However, Irma or Ian recovery came in about 1.700 budget. Since that time, you appropriated an additional 700,000 and I believe central avenue is on your agenda today, I think it may have been an item pulled from consent that has some median restoration work that will be another supplement. We went from 1.15 to 1.17. That was to increase fund balance by approximately 600,000. We also didn't know if we were going to get the state portion back. Remember when Ian hit the governor set aside money for certain jurisdictions to reimburse local jurisdictions when we for the property taxes that would be weighed for those for an uninhabitable home for a period. It was either 30 or 60 days So the point being is but but the state that allocation of money gave us back a hundred percent of those Dollars as well. So that was an additional 493 and that was received before year end as well. So just keeping that in mind that that stabilized fund balance I still believe fund balance was is going to grow up this year, but I also believe even at 1.17 that the Balanced at the end of 25 is still going to go down now. I'll talk about those slides of what I think it's personnel related and Contracts and some other things, but I did want to point out that I do believe That the fund balance at the end of 2025 even at 1.17 will go down. But only slightly instill in very good solid position. For those that don't know, the emergency reserve is a requirement of 10% of the prior years adopted budget in emergency reserve. And that's for obviously anything in the hurricane and the like. So that goes up, the moment the budget goes up, there's a corresponding set aside that must go along with it. And so you have 21 million that's your unencumbered net position or unrestricted net position, but you also have an additional 5.8 million sitting there for an emergency. So I just keep that in mind as well. So the process is on July 1st, the county appraisal delivers the notice of taxable value, the city manager distributes the city budget to the city of Naples. This is what to expect for the remainder of this year, sometime between July 15th and the 19th. And then the deadline for this city manager to certify it is August 4th. And that's why because you go on summer session, we have to have this discussion before the budget will have the budget workshop and then we write as of right now on the trim notice. These two dates still hold if it still works for council but because remember we take a back seat to call your county and the school district if they choose to have a meeting we take a back seat to them and then we take a back seat to them and we take a back seat to them and we take a back seat to them and we take a back seat to them, we take a back seat to call your county and the school district, if they choose to have a meeting, we take a back seat to them. But as of right now, it doesn't look like there'll be a conflict, so this is the tentative date for the hearings. So, and again, I already touched on this, but the maximum millage establishes a not-to-excite milligrate for the government's budget by inserting it on the trim notice. So when the first initial trim notice goes out, it says this is what you've declared to be maximum. Now, you can always go through the budget process and you can determine a lower milled rate and you can reduce it right there on the spot. So if you advertise it 1.17 you chose to do it at 1.15 other than your city manager in CFO saying we built a budget around the number that just went down other than your city manager and CFO saying we build a budget around the number that just went down other than that particular obstacle you're good to do that. But if however you decide to go higher than your advertised millage rate then it can only be increased after mailing a first class notice to each property owner in the city and you bear that's cost. So just keep that in mind that's a path we don't want to go down if If we're going to make a decision, let's make the decision now for the maximum of knowledge, giving you the latitude that you could always come in lower. Again, and this like just says prefer to avoid alternative to, it's also more time consuming and more costly. So this is the key part of it that I thought was an important new slide. And this is how it you determine what the vote has to be as it pertains to the maximum mileage. And so by majority vote, taxing authorities may leviam a maximum millage equal to a rollback rate calculated using the prior years taxes that the taxing authority would have levied. If it had adopted the maximum majority vote milledrate, however, if the taxing authority adopted a higher rate, the rollback rate would have been based on the adopted rate. This milledrate is then adjusted for the change in per capita, Florida personal income to calculate the current years of maximum majority vote. So I sent that to you so you can see it in the actual PDF of the actual calculations. There's a lot more that goes into it, and then you have to get the per capita. They come up with that annualized amount of what that spread's going to be. So we don't even get the calculator. We just drop it in the trim notice automatically calculate your maximums. You can read and find out what it is. It was 2.34 last year 5.98 I believe I have top of my head this year. But the point is there is a formula to this and it is outside of any of our control. But the other significant point to that though is by two thirds of the vote. And that says that the taxing authority may levied a millage not more than 100% of the majority vote maximum millage. So when you get that, and you'll go, it's in that PDF and we'll go step by step on that in a minute or two. But the point being is that when you come up with your maximum of millage, it's based on the maximum of millage and then 10% above that. And so when you do the rollback and it formulates into it, it'll tell you what the maximum is. And you can actually have jurisdictions that They have to have a unanimous vote just to keep it at last year's level because if the if the calculation comes up too much That's your maximum. Let's just say it was 1.165 this year Well, then it would take you as unanimous vote to get you to 1.17 year. Well then it would take you and unanimous vote to get you to 1.17. So and I actually I didn't print it because I was 14 pages but I do want to email that to you so you can read just in 2023 how many required a unanimous vote just to keep their millage rate the same and because of the calculation that goes into it. So I will send that out to every member of council just because it's a PDF and it was 14 pages I just didn't want to pass around. But I think it's an interesting read for you to later digest of what I'm saying to you because I think it's an important nuance, a very important nuance when you talk about a vote. So then what does that mean above that 110%, which again on the packet we'll go through that, that means that it requires a unanimous vote or a referendum to go above that what that maximum amount is. And for this year's budget, it is the 1.17 and you'll, I'm sure you've seen that in the packet, but I'll also show you that on the document. And this is it here. So when you calculate the rollback, that's box 11 in the calculation. Then it comes up and it says that adjusted for the per capita floor to personal income. That comes in by the state's website. You don't get to do anything with it. It was 5.69996. But that being said, then it comes up to what is the majority vote maximum average and that is 1.0637. Well, two thirds vote maximum average is exactly the 1.17 that we already have. So it'll take two thirds of you to do that. If you decided to go any number above that, it would require unanimous vote. So I wanted to point that out and I spelled that out in the agenda memorandum but I also want to include it there. Gary can I just interrupt with a quick question. Are these rules around maximum knowledge levels as a result? Are they longstanding or are they as a result of the two thousand states two thousand and seven so that goes back to oh seven yes it does yeah thank you I To get a little more context. I believe that was also the year possibly the same bill that set the cap at 10% For non-home-setting property tax I think it was the same year was a was a lot of tax, millage rate tax reform that year. Okay. So the first slide here, I wanted to show you a comparison of the current year budget versus 24, 25, if you went with 1.17. That would, that means it would generate net of the CRA, because remember they're, they're, they're portion gets peeled off the top 3,470,000 dollars so that would be the increased amount available for expenditures at the same millage rate If you decided to repeal or Revert back to the prior years because we increased it posting in 1.15 would be 2,789,875. The rollback rate has calculated, even if you went with the rollback rate, you still would generate 1,170 because that's based on, there's that many new properties coming online. It's the rollback rate and it takes those new properties coming online out before it recalculates to give you your rollback rate. So that's how you can still go up even though you're going back to the rollback rate. That would mean that the same property owner is paying the same taxes, the new ones are giving you the 1 million 170. Hope that makes sense, Sarah. So, and as I do with everything, and I know, Ms. Petronov here, you're always interested in these ones, is what happens if things, we're going good now, what happens if it goes a different direction? And that's, you know, again, I take what, the way I look at as my job is to provide stability and also to foreshadow what that's going to look like if what we could see happen. And so the reason we look at it and say, well, the 1.17 is if we assumed, this one assumes no immediate economic contraction, basically steady growth. Now, not at the same pace, but if you look at the second line down going across, I showed last year's 10.98 are 10.16. And let's just say we slow slow and we go to 6% growth, 5% growth, and 2% growth, but no contraction. And we just keep it at 1.17. In the same token, I assume in growth rate and expenditures of 4%, 3%, and 3%. We hold pretty steady in our fund balance that way. Okay. Now let's just see if what happens if we look at it. Oops, what I did. Yeah. So what if we, the growth side slows a little more. So instead we still have growth, it goes to 4%, then 2% and 0 in the three year outlook. We still are sitting at a fund balance above 13 million, so we'll still be above the minimum fund balance, but we'll be at that point where we're making decisions, right? And now, nothing happens in a vacuum. If we saw contraction or slowing, we've got to make some financial decisions on some of the things that we need to be, we don't want to hit that 4% growth, obviously. So, those things, I'm demonstrating this the same expenditure levels, but trust me, me and the Center Manager would have to be having a conversation if things slow down and say, all right, we need to contract a little bit in a lot of areas as well. How can we do that, right? So I want to keep that in mind as well. But then you look at it and you say, well, what if you have virtually no growth and you're at 1% for one more year and then zero and zero, well, you can see you can eat away, reserves pretty quickly, even at the 1.17. If you don't start tackling expenditures and all kinds of other decisions at the same time. And that's why remember, your fund balance is to provide you stability and to create a soft landing when economic hard times hit. And so when I say $21 million and I showed you on that slide, I'm very comfortable with that as a fund balance. Had I not had the $8 million C-wall looming still on the horizon. So that's why I don't want to go back to 1.15. I'm not fearful of where it sits. I'm fearful of what we still know we've got to get done with part of that money. So I just want to keep that in mind as well. So when I look at the 21 million, if I peel that 8 million out of there, you know, again, I'm already at a million or 14 million. And your minimum fund balance is about $11 million. So that's why I say it's not overfunded either, because you still have that looming. And it's been looming now since our money. So. and it's been looming now since our month. So. And then the next one is to show you what if economic contraction happens and it's not flat. It's not zero, but it actually goes negative. And then you can see if I say 1% in the first year, 25, 26, and then negative three, we're down to $2 million fund balance in less than a year. So the point being is it doesn't take a lot for you to have that contraction to really have a material effect on your operations. Now the other part I wanted to do is just assume that we have what happens if you went all the way back to the rollback rate and you got a negative. We heard a negative $6 million in short order. The rollback is an impractical one in a negative environment. But you also don't want to be doing, if it goes negative, it went negative because we're an economic hard times. And you don't want to be increasing the property rates that or milligrates that. So you got to find that balance as when is the right time to hold steady, when is the right time to hold steady when is the right time to give summer leave But one is the but but when to going all the way to roll back It can if you have any fear of of a An inflationary environment, right? Which you go back to that slide that showed post 2007 you had four years of negative contraction. And we've had unparalleled growth now for five years. So just keep that in mind. Now we have a lot of things on the horizon. New things coming on board. I'm not fearful of it, but it would be impractical if I didn't show you what that looked like. So again, getting back to this one, and this is a slide that I had up before, but also wanted to show you that look we were at 20 if I believe that we'll still have a balance around 21 million 480 at 1.17 If you did go back to 1.15 it would be just over 20 million in my opinion because the difference between each basis point is roughly three hundred and forty thousand dollars so just keep that in mind $140,000. So just keep that in mind. But I still believe that's still very strong territory. And either one of those require a two-thirds vote. If you decided for any reason you wanted to go above the 1.17, giving you a demonstration there of what that would look like, at 1.18, it would go up to the 340,000 that I referenced, and so on and so forth. But I just put this slide in so that you also recognize the requires unanimous vote for any of those things to occur. So what does this mean to your taxpayers? The difference is between 1.17 and 1.15 on a million dollar home is $20. I don't admit this slide is never to diminish any every dollar that every person gives us should be a count of four and is important to us. I don't diminish what they're spending either. We're just quantifying it here for your benefit. And if you went to the 1.15, obviously they would save $20 over the prior year. Not necessarily in taxes because you're still above the rollback rate, but it would be $20 less than it would have been if you kept it at 1.17. And then the last one is if you did decide you wanted to increase it, you know, let's just say to 1.20 that that would be a $30 increase on a person with a million dollar home, on a $5 million home and so on. It's 150. You can see the table itself. So that's why that's provided just to give it some context and so you have that as a benefit. So considerations, we can stay at the 1.17, we can decrease it to the 1.15 or something else. Now the things you still have pending are the pending seawalls, are we gonna have a dedicated resiliency effort? You saw a presentation on safety forces and then council priorities. You know, coupled with the need to continue peeling off a portion of communication tax revenue, we already showed you in the CIP where all of this communication tax revenue for the next five years is still planning on going to the street fund. So you're already peeling off those fund balances would still be significantly higher had were not done done but we're also in a good interest environment told you that before right now so we're making up what we're peeling off but that doesn't mean that'll stay over the five years so and then the continued capital improvement needs just throughout the entire city. other considerations, the inflationary impact on all costs, specifically the wages and pensions and as you know we're in current negotiations that's all say about that capital improvement and infrastructure costs, service and staffing needs, and recovery including pace of recovering FEMA funds. Now the general fund what I can say to you is your general fund is pretty much spent out. In a sense, you have a couple small things, but from Ian, there will be no more expenditures of anything. It's just getting the FEMA money back at this point. There's very few additional expenditures out of the general fund. But then again, what's the next disaster and the next unknown? So, those are the reasons, in in my mind you don't want to, I'll just say it, I don't want to go roll back and see a $3 million loss in the balance, the general fund balance, because I don't think especially given the seawalls that we should do that. And given where we are and negotiation, capital investment and other things, I wouldn't do that either. But at the end of the day, do I think that the 1.17 status quo gets you to operation what you're doing, retain sufficient fund balance, and if that's the objective for this council, then we will accomplish that at 1.15 or 1.17. I want to say that because it's not, you still will retain a fund balance above the 20 million in my opinion, which is an adequate reserve fund balance. So I want to say that. And with that, you know, again, after our discussion today, the main one you have to decide, I don't think there's any decision on the taxing districts, but is to maintain and to milligrate or something higher, lower, and everything that goes along with it? So I know we all have, sorry. Yeah, I finish. Yes. Just a couple of closing up points on Gary's presentation. I just want to kind of summarize where we're at and maybe even repeat a couple of things that he said. So what you heard from our CFO is a concern about dropping below a 1.17 at this point, because there are a lot of unknowns. And we believe that 1.17 maybe even less can provide you a budget that maintains this status quo. You talked about inflationary pressures, wages, we've got negotiations underway. There's a cost to that. It's going to cost us more to provide the same level of service next year than it's costing us this year. What the Delta is, TBA, TBD, but we believe it'll be within that 1.7 or less. But we believe it will be within that 1.7 or less. The question is to his point, there are two things that we've talked about in terms of priorities from this council looking beyond the status quo. Public safety enhancements, and you remember what those numbers look like and what those aggressive numbers look like and resiliency Two things in a public safety would be something that hits the budget right away if we want to look at enhancements and resiliency would be creating possibly a fund with policies Associated with it that builds your bank to be drawn upon to implement projects in the future So that would be in excess of 1.17 your bank to be drawn upon to implement projects in the future. So that would be an excess of 1.17. How much more? Beyond 1.17? You know, to put things into dollars per basis point, we're talking about $340,000 to round up Gary. So that example of showing that we can maybe go back to this slide. This example here of going to 1.2 and you see what that cost is, that would generate about an extra million dollars above and beyond this status quo, a million dollars. And then obviously another $340,000 for every basis point beyond that. So the feedback that we need from you all, obviously, is, you know, we need a number to advertise in terms of maximum millage, but in preparation for the budget process, when you set that number, whatever that is, we need some feedback in terms of your priorities beyond the status quo, relative to public safety, resiliency, and anything else that you all have talked about that should be incorporated when we're working on the budget this summer. So I just wanted to make those couple of comments before you begin your deliberations. Thank you for wrapping it up. I want to say thank you, Mr. Young, for your thoughtful presentation. And as always, just giving us guidance and how we can achieve the goals of, for our capital improvements or where we're going to go. I know you need a position now. Of course, I'm always let's set it higher because we know we can go lower. But with that being said, exactly the things that were mentioned, the public safety, resiliency. And we've discussed it numerous times, but just a checklist I'm not sure if we can make a decision. I'm not sure if we can make a decision. I'm not sure if we can make a decision. I'm not sure if we can make a decision. I'm not sure if we can make a decision. I'm not sure if we can make a decision. I'm not sure if we can make a decision. However, I'm not sure our community is ready to sit at status quo. anyone? Cramer? I'll jump out there. Status quo is not okay. We have to hire firefighters and we have to improve their pay. We have tire police officers. We have to improve. I don't a million dollars a year. I don't know. That's going to scratch that. It's not even close. So we're talking, I don't know how much more we can add. If we add a $100 per million per year. So if you pay an extra $100 a year for every million that your house's tax stat, I don't think that's crazy. I don't know how else you can do it. I mean, talking resiliency, which is a must, like we have to get those projects done and it costs money. So, and I remember when I was campaigning, there's this, oh, in the details. Some of you all know about this old, failed to you sign that you're never going to raise taxes. And that's just absurd. It seems as though people are afraid of that. It's going to be used as a political budget against you. I have no political aspirations, so I'm not afraid of the budget. And I think it's fantastic, as in the shower last night, thinking about this, that it has to be unanimous, because then all of us get budgeted equally. So I would like to, I don't know. I would rather get a whole number of exactly how much we're going to need to get done. All the things that we've said we need to do and then work backwards and then say, OK, what's that military and let's roll it? I don't know what our maximum allowable is by law. I know that you told us this, remember the workshop. I'm sorry, I don't remember it. So maybe you can come in on that to get done. We want to get done. Yeah, David, could you bring up the Excel file? And I just want to demonstrate something to you. I'll first prove to you that it works then Then I'll tell you pick a number. All right. So first of all you can see there's a lot of hidden things here But try to make this one big enough that you could see it. So if you look at the difference at 1.17 from 2324 to 2425, it's 3 million 470. That was the amount I showed you on that slide. So if you go over, I also, let me get here. So if I change this cell, this 1.17, I'm going to change it to 1.15. And the reason I did that is, well, first I'm going to do it to 1.16, but to demonstrate to you that it is exactly 340,000. I'm not sure what happened. Sorry. Okay. But 1.1. Why is that doing that? David. Oh, numbers lost not on. That's not you, David, that's me. Okay, so the point being is that demonstrates to you that it would go down by the three three hundred and forty thousand My only other point to that is if you said to me now you want to go up a hundred dollars on a million dollar Home, that's what you said well that requires ten basis points so to go from 1.17 and I'm just gonna throw it in there That would take it to 1.27. So that's, you already have 3,470 from the property value increases itself. The difference between 1.17 and 1.27 is an additional $3,400,000. So that puts your general fund budget 6,872,289. And the reason you can trust that, not that you need to care, but if I just type in the rollback, you will see that everything itself calculating automatically makes those two the same amount, so you know that it's calculating through based on that simple change. I only point that out, I don't like someone to buy into my number, if I can't prove it to you that it's calculating through. I work with Excel, I trusted you. Okay. The is 1.27 or maximum? No. You can go, I don't, I haven't researched what the, if you have a statutory maximum within your charter, but unless there's a voted statutory maximum and an anistro vote, you can go up three basis. I mean, you can go up, I mean, there's been jurisdictions go from zero to three or one to three. That's your call as to how high you want to go. And he's not being reckless. He's saying, correct me if I'm wrong, with just cause, with the details that support that. I'll plug in. I don't think there's a, I don't believe there's a stat, unless there's something in the charter and I haven't researched to that level, right? But I can if you want, if I need to know where you think you're going to go first, but I haven't researched the stat, whether you have anything in your charter that gives everyone maximum. Well, thank you, Marin. And you're exactly right with just cause. And I think what all of us would agree that just cause is we're understaffed. Where it's health and safety, we're understaffed. So if I remember so keeping this in mind and I'll go back, I think it was Mr. Christmas at the time when he said Mr. Young will get up, stand up and correct me if I'm wrong and I never stood up because you weren't wrong. But that was a three year implementation of the project. And at that point, it was $3 million almost in successive years. So now, if you're saying, I want to do the police and fire plan as presented, then I would say that that's basically 10 basis points right there. And so then the question, so again, if you then say resiliency, how much do you want to sit aside? So I think it's not about what is our maximum. I'll research whether the maximum can be equal to and report to you on, I can do that even for Wednesday to let you know what that number is since I didn't expect us to get past 10 basis points. But if we do. But if we did, then that would be, you know, you would have to tell me, okay, I want the plan that police, if that's what this council decide. I want the plan point before us. Mr. Christmas writer, it's basically almost 10 basis points a year to implement that plan across. Then you would be the looking at and say to me, well, how much do you want to sit aside for resiliency? And then I would tack that number onto it. So it was less, JNK, if it was a million dollars a year starting now, you also have to have a sum, if you go down this road and you're going the three-year plan, you pretty much baked in that you're going 10 basis points a year for the next three years, even assuming minimal growth, right? So that's my only point to that. So once you start down this road, whether you do try to bite it all off at the same time or not, I guess I defer that to you. But I will look at the maximum amount to make sure that there's nothing that the state doesn't, there's nothing that the state doesn't, there's nothing in the state that's imposing us. It then becomes whether or not you have a maximum on your books. And I just can't say that. I didn't research that. Okay, thanks. And I would say, when you worry about contraction of the economy, those types of things, if you'd never do anything, you'll be paralyzed, paralysis by analysis, which may be why this can has been kicked down the road for 30 years. That's all thanks. I just wanna say it hasn't been kicked down the road in 30 years, we had a reset back in08. Just for the record. That's a big, I acknowledge that, thanks. Yeah. All right, Chris Men and them pitament. Yeah, pit. Yeah. So we have some unknowns. A lot. And you referenced most of them, Mr. Young, but just again for the record, when we come back in August, we're going to know a lot more because of what staff is going to present to us about what our options are and the costs associated with our options for staffing in police and fire. Other areas as well. I mean, there are other departments that have needs as well, planning and comes to mind. And of course, what we need to fund in the resiliency area, as has been mentioned, and other things like that. We also, another unknown is that we have the, we've asked staff to research whether there are additional sources of fee income that could be generated that we haven't identified or tapped before. I personally think that I suspect there will be something there. I think it will be extremely modest and relative to what we would generate from through the property tax millage, but it can have an impact and I hope it does. So these are some of the unknowns that will become at least better known. In August when we come back and have our budget workshop, another point that I think is important to make, because we ran into this last year when we went through the budget. And I call it a vocabulary problem. Our tax rate currently is 1.17 mils. And when we raised taxes and putting quotation marks over raised last year from 1.15 to 1.17, it was commonly said by many people. You raised it by two mils. No, we didn't raise it by two mils. We raised it by two 100s of a mil. And if we raised, and I just quickly did the math, make sure if we would raise the maximum mill age, and again, this is just to give us the flexibility, as the mayor said, so we have flexibility when we deal with the unknowns. From 1.17 to 1.25, that would be 8.100 of 1 mil, which is a little under 7% increase. So I believe that for all these reasons, in terms of what we're doing today, which is not to set a new tax rate, but to simply say this would be the maximum. And it gives us the flexibility that we should set it at somewhere at least at 1.125 and maybe 1.27. And then we can figure out what the, you know, when we have the data that we don't have today, we can figure out what we need to do or we're willing to do it. And again, at 1.25, that would be about a 6.8% increase in mileage in the mileage rate, just to put it in perspective. 6.8% I believe. That's at 1.25. That's at 1.25. And, yeah, 6.8%. So, I think that's, those are really the points I wanted to make. Thank you, Council Member Pitiman. Thank you. I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth. But my guess is that if we went out on the street and said to people what's most important to you, I think number one on their ticket would be safety. That's police and fire. And that is that big body. They have big tub of water out there that is going to remain forever and ever in men, we'd be on probably our lifetime a huge unknown. So I'm in favor of looking at a different military test for sure. We talk about resiliency. Now if you look at resiliency and adaptation, those are two entirely different things. We haven't even talked about adaptation and we've done an exhaustive study having to do without adaptation and we haven't touched anything that I'm aware of in that particular study. So yes, there's resiliency but there's also adaptation. So that, as far as I'm concerned, also needs to be part of where our costs are going to be. So I would actually probably jump up a little bit higher than that. I'm probably closer to 1.27. If I understand it correctly, when we were running that 1.17 was20 bucks on a million. I'm thinking, I don't know, but I think the math is that if we went to $1.27, that it would be $100 on a million dollars. And again, if we go back to safety, and if that really is the premium that everybody sets in this area, and I believe it is, $100 on a million is nothing. So we have some big obligations, we've got some big unknowns, I would be a little bit more aggressive frankly. Thank you. Anyone else? Vice Mayor? Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you, Mr. Young, for the work that you've done on this and you and your team. I know it takes a long time to get the numbers right and go back over them and make sure that we understand where we're at. First, let's go back a year. I see some numbers here, but for the record, what did the city council do? The last time, millage rates were determined. What did we do? City council increased it from 1.5 to 1. Or excuse me, 1.15 to 1.17. And that generated what? 600. I don't know. It was 600. You're talking about just the difference? Yeah. It was $609,000. $600,000. OK. All right. And for this, for the period of time, now we're talking about establishing a millage rate for 2024, 2025. Correct? All right. And... So, the discussion has been around and on this Excel file that's on the screen now, it's about the something else. What we put in there. Whatever you want to try in whatever you tell me. And so to move beyond or currently at 1.17, I just want to make sure we're all clear, what is the voting threshold to move past a milligrate of 1.17? A unanimous vote. To do anything above 1.17. Is a unanimous vote? You can't go to 1.18. No. I mean, I can pull that. Because it's a percentage, right? Is it not a percentage of 1.18? I want to close this one and bring up the maximum milling, millage PDF. Just so we have it on the screen. I want to answer that question, but I want to do it with public You know so they can have the visual or you can have the visual in front of you So so this is the section that I'm speaking of but I want it I want to scroll down because I don't provide this This in time it was in your packet, but I want to scroll down because I don't provide this in time. It was in your packet, but I didn't put it in the presentation. So I want to, the lines you're looking at in the key language here is where it talks about minimum vote required to levy adopted millage. And if you go to A, B, C. So I just will reference A says that if line 13, which is 1.063, is less than, if line 15 is less than that, then it's just a majority vote. Okay. If you, the next one says if line 15, which is what we would be saying, if you went with the, the 1.17, that requires two-thirds. But then the item C is the big one. It says the maximum rate is equal to the adopted rate. It says unanimous vote of the governing body or three-quarters vote if you have nine members or more. Well, we don't have nine members or more. So therefore, if line 15 is higher than, excuse me, if line 15 is less than line 14, but greater than line 13, the maximum millilitator rate is equal to the adopted rate. So that's where it comes into play, or excuse me, if check here, if line 15 is greater than line 14, the maximum millilitator rate is equal to the adopted rate. So that's where, if you come in at 1.17, the maximum milligrate and that are one and the same. So the moments you go above it in any way you require unanimous vote. And to keep it at 1.17 requires what? Two thirds of a majority. So even to keep it at 1.17 will require two thirds, five out of the seven. Which is the five that we had last year for the milled rate last year. Okay. And then I wanted to make sure that the public and council understands this. I believe you said this but I want to make sure we're all crystal clear. I've requested and would want to make sure we're all crystal clear. I've requested and would want to see a comprehensive review of fee structure across all departments. Because I believe there is a certain amount, maybe even significant elasticity in our fee structure. We would see this win. Well, first of all, the fee structure that goes into the general fund at the moment is less than about $3.8 million. And so even with a 20% increase here generating maybe 700 and some thousand. Now, I also heard during the discussion that there was some statements that until we're maybe charging for parking this and that and the other you can't quantify that until you measure it right you can't measure until you determine what areas you're going to be doing how many spaces are there are you doing it 24 7 365 so you're not getting that in August because you have to make decisions so so the point is there's card and horse right right? So if you hire them now and say that, and we'll figure out how the money's gonna come, that becomes its own detriment. Because you've got a lot of decisions to make before you can get to that point. And so I only say that so that I don't want there to be, even if we are evaluating all fee structures, but we don't, there's not a whole lot of fees we collect for here. It's parks, recreation, and the likes, some planning fee. Building goes to its own building fund. We don't have a lot of operational fees within the general fund, because we don't charge for that many services. But at the end of the day, all of those things can be measured, but making decisions predicated on the comfort lack of a better expression, it can be dangerous until you've done the due diligence on that. If you recall going back to when we, how many places are we going to charge for parking? How many are we going to honor the stickers and we're not going to be, they're going to be sticker only, right? We eliminated what, 400, 600 spots that we're no longer charging, they're sticker only, right? All of those kinds of decisions have consequences then, they have consequences now, but me measuring how much revenue you'd break, you would bring in say go find out how much revenue, well okay what are areas we talking? We now haven't paid parking throughout the city, you know those become conversations before I can measure it. So I just want to caution that because I can't walk in the room and say, here's how much you're going to generate for parking. Let's go, you know, have parking enforced because at that point, you're better off starting a parking district and you have employees, you have ticket right there. There's a lot more that goes along with a lot of that as well. So you've got to measure all of those things as well. Fair enough've heard is that taking a comprehensive look at our fee structure, finding out just what kind of elasticity in there and how many dollars are in there, that's a lot of hard work. It's really easy to raise taxes. And I'm not, I'm just not wired that way. So I, in my mind, I have to look at everything else but raising taxes. And that's where my heart's at. That's how I'm wired. That's what, if it were up to me, I would do. It's nothing against the police and the fire and all the other, the resiliency. It's just how I go about things. So I won't vote for a tax increase on knowledge. But I will support. It's been raised last year. I'll support Stan where we're at. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? So it appears that we will be submitting unless there's a power persuasion because we must have. Mayor, can I, I just want to clarify something. If we, all we're saying now is we want to, anticipating that we may need to raise the millage. We want to set the ceiling of what that might be in the event when we actually vote on the budget, is that correct? Yes. If this council gives direction knowing to the city manager that he and I have to certify the trim that we want maximum of 1.27, knowing that, I mean, it's done but oh by the way we can't and I'm not sure that's the message that the I mean it's your discretion I think we would do whatever you if you have a vote to six or one says that put 1.27 on the problem is is without the unanimous vote we can't execute that well that's only for the first trim notice and that presents its own issues to each one of you but it's not an issue to me it presents its own point presents its own issues. The point is, to the mayor's point and the vice mayor's point, if we need more information to be able to say, yes, this is a good idea, taxes are the last resort, and I get that, but we don't have that information. And I agree with the vice mayor. We don't know what we can get from Parker. We don't know what we can get from other fees. I agree with that. But the point, talk about carton horse. But this horse has to leave the stall now if I understand you're right. Like we have to make decision, let's set in the max right now, whether or not we ever raise taxes or not. Correct. We have to get our ceiling. Is that correct? You have another bite, but you would pay for the advertising and you'd mail out the notices. And so it's still better if there's a possibility you're going to want to increase it to keep to do to do that part of it now but I'm just pointing out the obvious is with that comes its own you're setting yourself up for a discussion that may never have be able to materialize that's the only part and and the only other thing that I'll say is is the fee structure I'm just being real here, any fee structure with the fees you have in the general fund, the only place you're gonna get is if you did a parking program where you'd turn around and paid for police out of it because you don't have enough places in general fund no matter what we do for fees. You just aren't gonna get to those kind of police and fire numbers on the presentation that were presented before you because you don't have that kind of revenue to generate those kind of fees. So that's only other places if you went to parking eventually but again that that isn't going to be flushed out while you're on break that has to be flushed out before you and you have to depict what areas you want that to be in so so that's my only statement is that this budget season, because it would be irrational to put in those bodies and say, we'll figure out how we're going to pay for it. So that's my opinion, because I think you're painting yourself or future councils, whoever that may be, into a box in a real quick order. So knowing that parking is our greatest source of revenue, and it's potential for success, would that not be a priority for us? Let's get that program going if that's the only way we can sway to get to that. Yeah, I think it's, that would be, if this council, it's about, the reason I brought that up is because it was said during the police, I think it was Mr. Hutchison, vice mayor, who had said, well, I want to explore parking. I'm just bringing that up as an example. You've got to have that workshop discussion where are we thinking about doing this at? Then we can measure it. Then we can make those decisions. So I just wanted to temper expectations because I didn't want you to say, well, you're going to go back home and while we're gone, we're going to do work on your raising revenue. The majority of the revenue that you're going to be seeing is camp fees and different things like that which you're not going to have the stomach to increase in the amount I get that I want to get away from talking about those types. No, no, but I'm only saying parking specifically. Yeah, let me jump in on the parking. We need to look at that but it's going to take a lot longer than I think any one of us will want to accept. There's there's statutory things that we need to look at. We need to look at Arlington, Gainesville, K-SLAW, depending on what types of policies we're implementing, including on commercial streets versus residential streets. And just putting in policies and programs and charging fees is just part of it. We've got to enforce it too. So we've got to scale up and create a parking enforcement division. So there's a lot of it. We've got to enforce it too. So we've got to scale up and create a parking enforcement division. So there's a lot of work. Probably a good eight months to a year's worth of work that's required to do this right. So it's not something to Gary's point that we'll be able to get solve this summer. But to the point on fees, where are we lagging in the marketplace relative to what we're charging right now? We know we're lagging in certain areas and are there fees that we aren't charging that we should be charging? That process of review started as soon as you gave us that direction. That's already underway. In fact, some staff members have given their proposals. We've got to look at all of that. We've got to quantify that. And to Gary's point, we're getting feedback for all of the funds, the enterprise funds, which that money will stay in the enterprise funds. And then the ones that will go to the general fund, is it millions of dollars? No, it's not. So I think what we're trying to convey to you here is managing the expectations of what this fee review looks like. And I think we're all on the same page here. Let's turn over every stone that we can before we're looking at, at military. I mean, that's, you know, what we would be doing in this service if that wasn't the approach that we took in developing this budget. But the reality is this, you know, you can approach budgets in two ways. You can set a number and back into it, or you can identify your priorities and figure out what that cost is and deliver it in the most efficient way. And what you heard from your CFO today and we're telling you, there isn't going to be a major expansion if anything beyond the status quo. But the current military, because of the inflationary factors that are that's driving the budget pre-negotiated and currently negotiated pay that's happening right now. It's not going to happen. I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page here because I don't want you to be disappointed when we come back this fall with the budget So not to Well in trying to have you have a little bit of a open thought instead of going to that jump of 1.27 and slowly entering into a possibility of us raising that knowledge that we would need a unanimous vote for. With, believe me, I know that train once it goes out, it's hard to get it back. But it does take unanimous vote. So there are things so that could be done that have, we can look at it. But if you're adamant on, you're not going to raise it past the 1.17, then the conversation is dead in the water. Madam Mayor, I'd like to go ahead and take a make a motion so we can take a vote and get it on the record because I think if we're going to have the health and safety services that we need this as a must and so just for the record I'd like to go ahead and make a motion that we raised a mileage to 1.27 and then we can take. Yes, set the maximum one point I'm sorry, set the maximum at 1.27 and then let's take. Yes, set the maximum at one point. I'm sorry, set the maximum at one point to seven. And then let's take the vote and get that out of the way. If that's right with you. I have, if that's your motion, I have a second, but I haven't had everyone in the council speak. But if the no one wants to speak, then we'll take that motion. Well, I was trying to get your attention. I'll second it for purposes of discussion. So I'm motioned by council member Kramer to increase the millage rate possibly to a maximum with unanimous vote needed at the time of the final millage setting of the millage. Good, come make. So what I was going to say, I'm seconding Mr. Kramer's motion, not just for purposes of discussion, but because I support it genuinely. I would have made a motion at 1.25 or 1.27 myself. Look, this is, we need to act on something today in terms of a maximum bill. It's the only thing we have to do today, and we have to do it. We've been talking about all the unknowns in turn. I mean, directionally, there's a lot of things that we do know. Mr. Boudre-Sorge is just applying them and Mr. Young had previously about what the costs of police and fire are and so on. So this is a lot about signaling. This is a lot about signaling, not just to the residents, but to our policemen, our fire, all of our workers about what we're going to do for them or not do for them. It's about our commitment to resiliency and adaptation. That's what's embedded in here. And we know we're going to try to find every other dollar under any other rock that we can find to get to the right place. But in my opinion, we need to take a vote today that gives us the flexibility to go to a higher millage rate to pay for this, because I think it will be required at some level. Now, as we get closer to that time, or when we get to that time in September, we're gonna have to vote on a budget. People can vote however they wish and they're in their trade-offs and that we're all gonna have to make and there'll be more information and people will have to make that decision and it's possible that one or several people could influence that vote, but we're not there yet, and new information may cause people to look at this differently. So I think the prudent thing to do is to build reasonable flexibility into our decision today so that we can make as good a decision as we can in September, and that's why I support the 1.27. So I have a motion by Kramer, a second by Chris. And we are in discussion. I have one discussion. And that's, we did not discuss potential millage rates for public safety. Was that ever something that that's got this explored? Yeah, no, that's what this discussion is. Anything in excess would be specific to public safety and or resiliency. And... But that's not, I mean... You can call it whatever you want. I mean, I know in the, if you look at it from the county, they have their own separate millage rate for their fire districts. So yeah, those are separate structures. Like East Naples, Texas districts and things like that. Specifically, what you're getting at is that if you increase it, can you dedicate it to a dedicated resource, you're ostensibly doing that by appropriating it within the line items within the general fund if if for discussion purposes But it wouldn't be that way when it goes on the trim notice because you're just adding it to the general fund And I understand what you're gonna get it can it be on there as a separate item so they know it's going for those reasons and I I don't believe you can if you do a referendum But I don't believe yours would be just what is your maximum privilege if you went to a referendum vote would be different but also and that's typically what happens with the taxing districts. And Mayor if I can pick up on that and if I can pick up on your point I mean the comments that I made earlier was to try to provide some clarity. Anything in excess of that 1.17 in our minds would be dedicated to public safety expansion and resiliency period. We can and should be able to maintain the status quo with 1.17 or less. You know if it's less that that's to be known. But one of the one of the things that I think is very important for us to understand is the general fund is one of many funds that make up your overall budget. And you'll recall last year the three biggest department that is consumed within the general fund are police, fire and parks and recreation, your public safety and quality of life. I think that accounts for about 86% of the overall budget. So I think one of the logical questions would be okay. Maybe we want to re-prioritize general fund services and place a higher degree of value on a certain service versus another. So where do we cut? Could we generate more revenue for another department by cutting someplace else? The answer is yes, how much and at what consequence? Again, 86% parks and rec, police and fire. And then we've got other areas like planning that we've talked about, do we need more bodies there? We're not even proposing at this point, expanding bodies there. So I just wanted to put that into context. I guess the other area is CIP. There is some money within General Fund. I think that's over there, but that's been identified for projects. So then we would have to look at projects that you want to cut. And remember, those are one-time projects. Those aren't reoccurring costs like salaries and whatnot. And I don't know what kind of wiggle room there is within CIP. But there are areas we could cut, but it is limited. And I think that's, I wanted to say that because I think it's an honest thing that we should put out on the table. But the question is that what consequence? I want to clarify what I heard you say, and that is that if we are proposing to increase the millage rate, the planning department isn't even, or other departments, they're not even being considered for more employees. No, we're at a status quo budget. That's what we're saying. Status quo, status headcount, the whole thing. If I'm saying, if we don't go above the 1.17, if we do go above the 1.17, are you saying that planning is not considered or any other positions? We would need to know what your priorities are and that was a reason for my commentary earlier. If you want to go above the 1.17, you know, we've heard public safety expansion, we've heard resiliency. Are there other priorities that you wish for us to consider? We developed this budget this summer, more planning staff, that would be one of those other priorities that I mentioned. Yeah. Can I make it? Yes, Councilmember Petron often in the amendment. I would say that we, you know, and I'm sure you're probably looking at this, but in the case of life planning or building that most of those costs should be liquidated against fees that are charged. So, you know, so that we should be neutral. And if we need to add people, we need to increase the cost of those services and fully liquidate them. So there's a couple things. First, I want to piggyback on J86%. There ain't that many other places in general for when you're going to get it And I say that with the utmost respect because it's your council budget. It's your clerk's budget It's your finance department budget hasn't grown. I've told you for five years if I ever needed I'll come back to you. I've never grown it purchasing HR and the city manager That's all you got So if you're talking about you can go get money and the capital improvement. That's all you got. So if you're talking about, you can go get money and the capital improvement, the only thing that you have there is there's very little negligible in the general fund. It's your public service tax. You could redirect the communication tax that you already haven't given away to the street fund to keep its projects going and to continue the paving efforts back to the general to help offset cost, but it's not a reduction in expenses as much as reducing projects within your capital that returns money back to your general that you're otherwise diverting for capital projects. So I just want to specify that. Then you can't use planning and building in the same breath because building is paid for out of its own building funds and has an enormous amount of building permits. The planning is much more limited. And the planning department, as off the top of my head, loses $300,000 annually. So I mean, we'll point that out to you. And so as far as if there is fees for the planning that you can generate, but right now, I don't want you to even presuppose that it's even close to covering your planning cost. And the building official will tell you you cannot bury planning expenses in his building fund. And because that's a no-no by state statute. So. I just want to preface that. Okay, we have, I do want to finish this discussion because we need to call the question. Council Member Pinouin. Yeah. Let's go back to the parking conundrum. The bid is very much in favor of this. As I understand it, a lot of the parking on Fifth Avenue and other places as well is taken up by employees. So that is not a slam dunk in my opinion that we're going to have fees all of a sudden within the next six months on parking. Now we could go to impact fees and raise our impact fees. We don't... I... maybe you've done a study, I haven't seen it. If we did a... if we did a study on impact fees, could we bring in some additional revenue there? I... you know, that remains a question for me. But, you know, it's interesting to me that the study that we are going to have before us on Wednesday, the participants in that study basically said, folks, you need more people than planning. You got to have them. So far as I'm concerned, our back is against the wall here. We've just got to raise our fees. We just have to. And again, an impact fee study might be interesting. I can't imagine that they're going to necessarily save our bacon, but I don't know. That's the only place I can come up with other than parking fees. And we've got to find some place to put the employees before we even think about meat or anything out there. Okay. And I, just to be clear, I wasn't advocating it. I was only responding that that ends in instantaneous so that everyone, you know, wasn't counting on a revenue stream come August, but there's no way that we could even begin to quantify just yet. So. I was, I was, I was, after a year or so. Okay. No further discussion. I have a motion by Councilmember Kramer in a second. By Councilmember Christman. Could we repeat the motion please? I make a motion that we raise the maximum possible military to 1.27. Thank you. Madam Clerk. Councilmember Christman? Yes. I'm clear. Councilmember Christman? Yes. Councilmember Barton? Yes. Councilmember Cramer? Yes. Councilmember Petrinov? Yes. Councilmember Peniman? Yes. Vice Mayor Hutchison? No. Mayor Hyattman? Yes. So it passes six to one. I will just, yeah. Is that sufficient, Gary, to set the maximum military? We can't be cut. Well, actually, it really fails because you have to have a unanimous in order to have. Yeah, I don't believe that you can. So unanimous even to set it. Yes. I believe because we have to certify it in the document and we can do that. I mean Yeah, you're absolutely. Yeah, you can't set something that you can't approve. It's actually Yeah, and I'm not the attorney but I was thank you, Mr I was gonna say yes you should get you because Yeah, and I'm not the attorney, but I was, thank you, Mr. I was gonna say yes, you should get you, because one thing to think about is then you have staff preparing a budget on numbers that are not gonna work. So then the budget project becomes very convoluted. Exactly. Okay. I'm gonna make a motion mayor. Yes. That we set the possible maximum mill is rated, current rate of 1.17, but be graded, please. Savvy? possible maximum mill is rated current rate of 1.17 but regrettably I have a motion by councilmember Kramer and a second by councilmember Vice mayor Hutchison all in favor signed by I opposed no Okay, let the record reflect that Councilmember Chrisman dissenting Okay Councilmember Chris Mendocente. Okay. Now on the agenda, Mr. Young, Mr. Boudre-Schwar on this. That's it for this particular one. Yeah, thank you very much. You just want to confirm what we all just did. So the rate set is 1.17. We will advertise at such and we will prepare a budget again to manage expectations. It's going to be a status quo budget. We will see if we can find opportunities through fees, but that's going to be our approach. Yeah. And my vote on the 1.17 was a note also. I'll say. Okay, I want to go. Should I do a row call? Are you okay? Madam Clerk. Do a row call. Nice to meet you. I just know. No. No, this is setting 1.17. May I ask a process question before we do this? Yeah. If this is rejected, then what happens? If this is rejected, then what happens? If this is rejected, then what happens? Well, we have to declare something. Even if we did it, we would probably do it at the 1.17 knowing, but you would leave us in a circumstance where we're going status quo and you would be decreased at your will. Or you could increase at your will but then you would pay for the postage and the other additional expenses. How much is that about? I might begin to file them because we don't pay for any of it. And at 1.17 it requires a two-thirds. That's correct. Two-thirds, so. That's correct. And we just took that vote, right? We did, but for the record, there were two that we need to do a roll call. So we have a motion by Council Member Kramer, second by Vice Mayor, Madam Clerk, please, Paul the Council. I see any comments from Senator? Yes. Council Member Kramer? No. Council Member Kramer? No. No. Yes. Yes. With regret and apologies to our first responders, yes, out of necessity. No. Mary. Yes, passes four to three. That's not sufficient. That's not sufficient. That's right. So we have to have two-thirds. So you guys, we're going to, we can go round and round. Are you, are you, we're not going to lower our budget. Yeah. So I mean, it's either we go at the 1.17. I mean, you got we go at the 1.17. I mean you got you can have principles but the principle here is we are going to lower our budget and that sounds like the county and I don't we can't even make ends meet as it is. They're not like to make a motion to raise it to the millage rate to 1.20. Okay, Councilmember Petranoff, except your motion but I don't want to keep going back and forth in that we have to have unanimous vote. So I have a motion by Councilmember Petranoff for- Second. I'm sorry. This is unanimous as well. Yes, thank you. This is unanimous. Second. I'm sorry, what was the motion? To raise the milligrate to 1.20. It's possible to milligrate the trim notice. Okay. I have a motion by Councilwoman Petrinoff in a second. Also, by Councilmember Kramer. Madam Clerk, please pull the council. Councilmember Christmas. Yes. Council council. Councillor Member Christmas. Yes. Councillor Member Pitchanov. Yes. Councillor Member Barton. Yes. Councillor Member Cramer. Yes. Vice Mayor Hutchison. No. Councillor Member Penham is. Yes. Mayor Hatton. Yes, so we do have two thirds. Oh no, you still have to have unanimous. Sorry. So that motion failed Council I make a motion that we accept 1.17 Of a motion by 1.17 My mayor heightman a second by vice mayor Madam clerk, please pull the council Councilmember peniman Mayor, Mayor Clerk please pull the council. Council Member Penneman. No. Nice mayor Hutchison. Yes. Council Member Paginaugh. No. Council Member Barton. Yes. Council Member Kisman. I now know what hostage taken. Council Member Barton. Yes. Council Member Kisman. I now know what hostage taking is about in municipal government. But in order to avoid even a worse fiscal disaster for the city, then would otherwise occur. And with apologies to our public safety workers, I will guess. Council Member Kramer. Yes, with apologies as well. Mayor Heidman. Yes, and it passes five to two. We have two- thirds of the vote. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Mr. Young, thank you. Because all your hard work is very much appreciated. And thank you, Mr. Boudre-Schwer. And that concludes our item 9D taking us to public comment. Madam Clerk. Yes, and then. Okay, so seeing no public comment going to correspondence or communications with Mayor and Council. Council member Kramer. This, I guess I'm asking staff to consider a give us direction to research something. Just bringing this up for down the road. I've been contacted by folks in Port Royal. They have a desire to bring the code for their building of docs and make it compatible with everybody else in the city. I didn't know this, but evidently they have the most restrictive code. And there's not a big deal, but there's some things they could do that would help resiliency and really be environmentally more friendly. And so I'm letting you know that for the record that that's something I think we look into and discuss. I think Mr. Vouchard do you remember there was a discussion about that? Did we have staff working on that? I'm not sure and I'm not sure if planning is here, but I think what we're referring to is some sort of text amendment within our code and how that is generated, whether it comes from the staff or it comes from petitioner, it could come from direction of council, but to do a text amendment obviously requires a motivation and then it requires some staff work, city attorneys work. There's a cost associated with that. So I don't know all the details of how we do it here in the city of Naples, but usually externally generated interest in changing the code. There's an application fee, a cost required, unless council directs staff to initiate such a thing. I'm not sure if Matthew probably doesn't know that yet, but we can look into it and advise you of this situation. I'm not very sure if the email's me, I'd be grateful. Well, and I think it's having specifics of what they want to look at as far as very important for us to have support in having staff address it. It was exceedingly specific, which I don't even want to get into those weeds right now, but they are very, very specific. And truth is, it's just it's compatible with other neighborhoods as well. Other people in the water, it's what they're already doing. As long as can you ask whoever made this request of you to send that information so you can share it absolutely. Thank you. Anything else? Councillor Member Cramer. Complete. Okay. Yes, that's your knob. A couple quick things. One is, um, uh, fourth of July we will be out of session and, um, I was down around Laudermilk over Memorial Day, and there were a lot of parking issues. So just asking for staff to possibly put up signage around the troublesome neighboring streets for no parking. And have some sort of police maybe presence to help with the circulation around Laudermal Park specifically so that we don't encounter what we have encountered over the fourth over the last two years. We might be appreciated. Thank you for that. I'll just use this opportunity to let you know that our team, let my police, have been actively working on preparations for July 4th, parking, traffic, traffic management. So if you have some specific streets that you want us to make sure we're looking at as a part of our plan development, please email that to me. Okay. And I'll pass it on to our team. Thank you very much. Sorry. Sure. email that to me and I'll pass it on to our team. Thank you very much. Sorry. I'm sure he's typing. To tag on to that, Mr. Boudre-Schweier, those areas that I, you and I are doing a tour of those specific beaches, but I'm very concerned. They haven't changed their status. If anything, some of them have gotten worse. And I'm really concerned about risk management. On our list of making sure those areas are secured. Thank you. Thank you. I just have to say it's really, I really am apologizing to our first responders. Like the first thing we're asking is for more police presence someplace after we refuse to fund them. That is disheartening. And I know it is and I am sorry for that. Item number two was if we can have something sent out to the folks of Swan Lake, I met with them over the weekend and they are generally worried about flooding during, because of the hoopla, what the hurricane season is supposed to be. And just on our process on lowering the lake, we are, you know, and what is our process to do that. And when I looked, that's what caused me to look at the comp plan and stuff. And when I did look at it and some of the ordinances and I did a search as well, there is language in there on lowering it up to a week before where they lowered to, I'm sure that there's a certain level that they lowered to. And then when do they put those back? And that would give great comfort, I think, to this group of people to understand. And then they wanted to know, and maybe we'll get a sneak peek of this tomorrow, is those backflow valves. Is one of them going to be for the first long lake? I'm not sure, but regarding your question or regarding Lake Management, Lake Level Management, I'll talk to staff to see if we can convey just as a matter of education, public education, what our program is. We do have protocols in place, of course. Absolutely. They are written and they said if they have volunteers, if they want to remove the board, they'll do that I don't know talk to staff about communication. Okay terrific and then the last thing is Just a comment on you know, we we approved on consent agenda I think it was a hundred grand for turf maintenance on our parks and You know, there is something in our And there is something in our, in our, in our complex plan on the concept of fair share of costs. And who is using our parks that is ripping up the turf? I would, you know, can we do a share with the county on some of these expenses that we have in the past but that the vast majority of them are from kids that are out of our city limits because we are paying the freight. And we want to be a small town or have that small town charm. And I think, I think, burn, I think Commissioner Barton said this. Our desire to be function like a small town, have lower scale development, etc. It does come at a price. And I think we feel this when we look at budgeting because we are absorbing a very different strategy from the county. And as you know, we don't, I don't think we need more police and first responders because of our population, I think it's because of what happens to our city population. When I think they're taking counts of 200,000 people coming in and out of our city, our population is 19,500. And so this is just something that I'm struggling with, but something that we are investing in a certain quality of life in our city. And it comes at a price so thank you thank you council member pitiman thank you i have several things here that i'd like to cover um relative to the parking downtown we We maybe will have to sort of accelerate that as to where we're going to place employees. And I really don't know what I'm asking for and necessarily counsel or city manager. But a look at impact fees and impact fees studies since that may be something that we're going to have to look at in order to fill gaps here and The relative going back to the parking fees We're gonna have to figure out where we're going to put employees So somebody's gonna have to take a hard look at that In order to loosen up, perhaps, some dollars there. Relative to the fire, you know, for years, we've changed our paradigm. And I'm going to say it was about 10 years ago. And we now do what is called closest unit. So not only are our fire answering calls within the city, but with closest unit, they are also assisting fire fighters in the county. Now we are also the beneficiaries of closest unit. If the county fire personnel is not tied up with something within their jurisdiction. So, you know, that's something that, you know, needs to be looked at a little bit, you know. I think they all benefit basically, but again. And then I think we also have to look at, you know, at everything that we do, we have to look at our level of service, which is what I think you alluded to, Mr. Patronon, that, you know, we expect everything to be top notch. We want to be at our A game. And in order for us to be at our A game, we've got to pay our people well. And we've got to set certain standards that sometimes are reachable, sometimes not always, and sometimes it takes a buck or two to get there. So I think at this point, I will have to say, this is, I'll be very honest with you, and I'm not embarrassed to say it. This is a low point for me today. Thank you very much. Mr. Boutichard, will we be discussing the level of service within our, when we're doing our comp plan amendment and discussions? Oh, yes, absolutely. Is that co-simonthaneously or can we do our level of service prior to? Because I think we are confusing level of service like we have the beaches are, you know, a D. We can't make or enough, whatever it is because we can't make anymore beaches. We can't create anymore. But it's a level of service as far as providing maintenance. Those are different levels of service. I don't want them to come for sure. Yeah. And that's a good point, Mayor. I mean, we we use these terms kind of interchangeably. You know, there's a specific definition of level of service, L.O.S. within our code and comp plan. And then in terms of service delivery to the community, how often we empty trash, sweep the streets, provide traffic enforcement, that's a level of service as well. And we're talking about operating budget in the context of a level of service within the operating budget. That's what that is. Thank you. You understood that. Okay, fine. Thank you. Thank you. Councilmember Barton? Oh, yes. I just want to to miss this. Penetrains point and somebody else brought it up on impact fees. If you recall that the water department had their impact fees evaluated in the same firm is who we're going to be engaging them to do the police fire and park which are the only other impact fees that you have. That I've actually got the quote from them already for that purpose. And then also they would be giving a slight presentation on certain things we can change in certain things we can't because the state of Florida passed some regulations about a year ago that impacted when you can change them and how much you can change them, etc. So we will be engaging them over the summer, but it would probably be November, December, the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission and the commission were looking at. All the other ones that you have is where we collect collect the county portion for the roads and we get that $200,000 back as part of that agreement that's an interlocal agreement that was passed in 2006 by by resolution 11223 and it hasn't changed since 2006. Thank you. You're welcome. Council Member Barton. We are under staff for police and fire. It's irresponsible to not correct the issue. And we're under staff right now. So this is not a problem that we need to deal with down the road. So it's very disappointing that we, as a governing body up here, couldn't manage to put public safety in the forefront here and explain to our constituents and our residents that cost money. And safety should be a paramount. Now also saving money, not spending money, and I get that part of the equation. We need to try to find other revenue streams, but the message seems really clear that other revenue streams are not going to solve our dilemma. And we need to, the tax increases is probably going to be necessary if we want to do what we want to do from a community standpoint. And that is to protect our residents and make sure that they're in the most wonderful place in the nation. And right now we are and we may not be that way. I believe that we are wishland pass a graveyard here folks. And we got our blinders on and say, hey, everything's great. You know, status quo. This is fantastic. It's not. We've got 1.2 million. 1 million in the car is coming into the to our community on a weekly basis. We need more staff to keep us safe. And I can't stress enough that we're not to dig deep and figure it out. And it's going to take more than parking fees to get it done. Thank you. I don't want to do it right now, Mr. Butishwar, but this happened during the campaign and it became political. And I don't want things to become political. Could you please make sure that you send memo to us clarifying whether we are fully staffed, not fully staffed and exactly what will be affected by this decision? Yeah, absolutely. I just don't want to create any confusion. Yeah and I'll do you one more. I'll send the entire list of vacancy throughout all of our departments because I know that your concern is beyond public safety. Of course that's a concern but you've talked about planning and there's some other areas where we're having some trouble getting qualified applicants, but I'll send you the updated vacancy report. Yes, but specifically to this because and the increase in millage from which it was concerning to me wasn't even go towards other departments that were understaffed so that's concerning. So thank you Mr. Barton. Councillor M. Barton. Mayor, just what you just said, I think can be misleading because you're staffing what your FTE. You're not creating the FTE for staff until you have the funding for it. No, we already increased our staffing levels. And I just want to know where we are at with our staffing levels, with this budget now. And how that is under staffing. Yeah, because there's a lot of great areas that there was many requests. Yeah, let me try this. I don't want to read into what Mr. Barton was saying, but I think there's two things at play here. Let's talk about police as an example. We have XFTEs that's in the budget. It's been in the budget for many, many years. I believe we had reached full staffing and we had a retirement in, I think, I just approved hiring an officer yesterday or earlier today. So let's just assume that we're at full staffing per the FTE. I think one of the concerns is our currently budgeted FTE isn't enough. That were, quote, short staffed. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's what I'm hearing from some members of the community and possibly some of you that although we are at full staffing, we're at full staffing of what's approved in the budget. There is an expectation or a willingness to increase that FTE because there's a feeling that we don't have enough staff period in police. Is that fair? Okay, not a feeling we want it based on facts. Oh sure, yeah, I absolutely will provide you the facts relative to what is in our budget relative to FTE and where we're at in terms of butts and seats or cars. Thank you. Council Member Christmas. I've got several things but let me just piggyback on that conversation for what I think is additional clarity anyway, which is that we're in this, as it's been brought up, of course we all know it here, but for the benefit of the public. We're in the middle of a contract negotiation with the FOP, with the police, and it involves multiple issues, but if you just look at the issue of staffing and compensation, we're looking at some level of compensation increase that will be have to pay, if it occurs, we'll have to be paid out of whatever our budget is. And that's without even getting into the question of additional staff, such as was proposed to us by Chief Dominguez. And of course, the same is true with fire in the presentation that he made to us last month. So it's increased wages and it's a request for additional staff. And then there are other non-compensation staff issues in that contract negotiation as well. So there's lots of very large waves coming at us. But let me move on to these other issues. First quickly, Mr. Bhutishwar, I've had some further correspondence with Mr. Malican and Mr. Fight and others up in the north end of town about this federal tax relief act and that's been passed on to you. Is there anything further we need to talk about or you need from us to be able to do what we need to do to support this? We have a draft letter ready. Do you all want to see it or do what we need to do to support this. We have a draft letter ready. Do you all want to see it? Or do you want to suggest push it out? There. I mean, I'd be comfortable with you just pushing it out, but I defer to the rest of Council. I think it's good to inform us and share it by email. I'll send it. I'll send it. I'll send it by email. And by Wednesday we can give you our feedback. Okay. Number two, you'll recall that at a recent meeting and correspondence, I brought up the issue of the, in the context of home rule, the fact that we have an election this year for a new district representative, district 81, who's going to be new this year, because Representative Romulus term limited. And so I, and we all may have received something on this, but several of us, including Mr. Boudichor and Mr. Rambosca looked into this. And in the district 81 race, there are two Republicans running a vet, Ben-A-Rock, and Greg Folly, and one Democrat, Chuck Work. I also asked Mr. Rambosca last week whether there was information available, perhaps through the federal Florida League of Cities about how many Preemption bills have actually passed the state house over some recent piece of a period of time and within a day or two she got back to me with this I know that's about 30 page list of bills going back to 2010. And she got help from the FLC on this. But and these are just bills that passed. These don't include, there's another list that she's working on of preemption bills that didn't pass. But we're trying, you know, somebody tried to get them through. And I suggested to her that she sent this to all members of council because, yeah, it's organized by a year starting 2024. And it's kind of an interesting list to look through and obviously some are more, you know, to our eyes more important than others in terms of the impacts it has on it. But I mentioned this because the only way, in my opinion, you're ever going to begin to change things is to really have a list of what has been done that really is impacting us. And secondly, that we start engaging in local elections for the state legislature. So I wanted to let you know about that. Mr. Ramboski is going to send it around. But secondly, the primary, I think, is August 20th. We're back August 19th for our first meeting. What I would suggest, Council, if you're in agreement, is that when we get back in August, we return to this item and ask and see if we can get whoever the Republican nominee is and the Democrat nominee for District 81 to come in here and and where we can have a few minutes to talk to them here what their priorities are and where we can share with them what we think their priorities should be if they're elected as our representative does that make sense? Yes, great idea. Mr. Bhhoor, you think that makes sense? So we'll regroup on this in August. Yeah, we'll definitely do that. Okay. The actual vote. I think August 20th is the primary. Thank you. Yeah. And then you know, we'll know who's on the ballot then for November. Final thing is we're all aware that there and Mr. Brutishore sent out a note that there was some discomfort at the PAB meeting last week and I think there has been and perhaps the last several meetings at least. I, you know, this is not the time to dig into this, not just today, but even before adjournment. I think this is all something that we probably need to think about and maybe even work on over the summer recess. But I took several people, told me I should look at it and it's eight and a half hours long, so I wouldn't. I did not watch the whole thing over the weekend. But I did tune into a couple of different parts and it was, you know, there was a lot of discuracy as combative and adversarial behavior there, no doubt about it. It was troubling to me. At his request, I had a meeting with PAB Chair John Cross last week, the day before the PAB meeting. And I've known John for a while and was happy to meet with him. And we had a nice conversation over coffee. He was seemingly most concerned about getting my thoughts, I guess, on ideas that he had brought up at the prior PAB meeting in May regarding ways in which PAB could do its job better by getting information more earlier and having certain rules about what petitioners had to, were able to present and when and several other things and they were all presented at the recent PAB meetings and I said, well, you know, if there's a consensus at PAB that you think these are good ideas, a majority of you think that's sent them to council and we can talk about it. You know, I gave them my views as to what I thought were the, where I agreed with it personally and didn't agree in other areas, but you know, there's no reason not to talk about that. And then the other thing he, he seemed most concerned about was the comp plan and the PAB role and the comp plan. And I said, look, as far as I'm concerned, there's a process for the comp plan that's already been presented to us that we've agreed to. And we were going to do it in two bites, first the required part of it and then the elective part of it. And Ms. Martin told us very clearly she needed to hire a consultant to help on the elected part because of staff and constraints. And I said that, you know, staff has to do their work first. The PAB has to do their job and council has a role too. I mean, in the end, we have to be able to review it and make sure we're comfortable with whatever we're sending in. So all three groups have to be engaged in part of this. And, you know, there's questions around sequencing and making sure there's not redundancy, but I guess I don't think this is brain surgery to figure this out. So I just wanted to share with you what I told him. I don't know everything that was said the next day at the meeting or some of the other members said, again, I only watched pieces of it just because of time constraints. But I think we have some issues there. And those issues end up on our plate, not just on the PAB plate. And when we're not going to have time to deal with it and those issues end up on our plate, not just on the PAB plate. And, you know, when we're not going to have time to deal with it between now and Wednesday, but when we get back in the fall, it's late summer, start it off with trying to get our processes, our boards and our committees looking at their bylaws, their meeting dates, and trying get some consistency. I don't think we did a great job. I think it was very fragmented. very fragmented and very started with our charter group on our attorney, our city manager and our city clerk on things that can improve and need to be addressed and hopefully have a healthy workshop discussion and put some policies into place so that we're all clear on who's responsible for what and also having a board meeting, a board member kind of 101 kind of like we did with Council. This is what your expectations are. This is how much you help us. We appreciate it. And here's your boundaries and some guidelines. So I hope that, I will say I'm committed to making sure that we have that when you come back and also have that process of onboarding board members so they all have a better understanding. And I think it's communication as far as frustration. I'm as frustrated as the PAB. I think the decorum needs to be different in how we handle it. It's the process that takes so long when we have, and we have a traffic study that takes a year to get it even off the ground. We need a traffic study. I mean, so I am sure that we are going to, we've added the staff that will be necessary to make sure that if we give tasks to our staff, that the scope of work is clear and we're moving forward. And that's why I really wanted to make sure today that scope of work please pay attention to the scope of work in our contracts. I know we get pretty power points but where we sometimes go a stray is not knowing the details in the details matter. So I just want to make sure that we're doing our due diligence as a council in making sure we're giving the correct scope of work to our staff. So thank you. I just say, you know, to me the bottom line is when courtesy and decorum breaks down between a board, any board and staff, then people quit listening to each other and then you know it all falls apart and that's what I was seeing in the last couple of PAB meetings and what we need to repair. I agree our staff works hard and we have expectations on them and we want to make sure that they're appreciated so I think we'll find out a lot of information as we work on this over the summer. And I'm pleased. Thank you. Thank you. Vice Mayor. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Several of my concerns have already been addressed. The public comment, Mr. Paul, I believe his name is Coaches. Coaches, that concern with the Swan Lake, I believe Councilwoman Petronoff has had that addressed. And I think that the city manager, Mr. Brutishwar, you have this and these folks are going to get an answer as to how that's managed, correct? Excellent. correct excellent modifying the docs in Port Royal as our legal counsel looks at this please make sure that this doesn't touch SB 250 more restrictive more difficult etc. So I took a very uncomfortable position of holding my position on the raising of the milled rate even signaling that we would consider a certain rate of 1.25, 1.27, 1.20, all of which would require a unanimous vote. So, it takes a commitment to do what you say and fulfill the commitment one makes. It really does. I mean, you heard today, here on Council, there was a lot of upset people. My peers, that I have to serve with. Words such as taking hostages, compelling others to apologize to the police and fire our first responders. That's unfortunate. And I'm going to explain here real quick where my heart was, although many of you probably already know. If I tell you I won't raise taxes and I then do it, shame on me. If I criticize others for raising taxes during campaigns and I then do the same at the first opportunity, shame on me, and I'm going to go through, I kept all those maillers during the campaign. Because I knew, as some of those words that were being sent out, that there were some hard things being said in some reality that was going to take place. Now, if I make a commitment to consider all other alternatives before raising your taxes, I will do my best to influence others to do the same. I'm one of seven. But we all have some influence on this council. The city of Naples is certainly unique in many ways. We're first or close to first in numerous rankings. We deserve the best people, the best pay for those people, and the best equipment as they serve our community. I'm asking also for the best possible due diligence as I serve as a steward of the resident's taxes. If we find through some of the discussion that we had here today, if we find that there are opportunities to raise funds through fee structures, which perhaps are below what the market rate will bear, and what might prevent unnecessarily raising your taxes by a certain amount, that will be a good thing. A good thing for our residents who are on fixed incomes. A good thing for those residents struggling with inflation and providing for their family. And a good thing for those who don't have financial concerns. So, Council, I want to work with you to make the right things happen, but I do have to see that we've exhausted all of the other opportunities to prevent putting a financial burden on our residents and raising taxes because I meet these people at my stores. There are people out there that struggle week to week, month to month. And that's what's in my heart. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Thank you. And Vice Mayor, you did take a hard hit today. I admire the fact that you do stand with your convictions. And you are also willing to change your mind on things which I appreciate also, but I do know that you have asked for due diligence and maybe we didn't prove that to you. And there may be other options that we can find in the things we haven't discussed today because if our community is really committed to some of the things I've asked a few of our members that were really pushing for some of the benefits to give to our first responders. Maybe that will see them come and step up to the plate and we'll be able to support some of the needs that we have within our first responders. So some of my things were covered. Thank you for Swan Lake that we keep continuing. We have to get a closure on that with the BMPs and a plan on how we are going to address it with the county. It's been two years. Where's the point source coming from? How is it affecting us and how are we going to work with the county and making sure that the pollutants that are going to swam lake are addressed. And I think that's on the agenda if I heard correctly. We do the city dock. We had an issue with birds and some heavy droppings throughout the whole dock. And it became a serious matter with the pigeons. Thank goodness the rains came and gave us a nice clean peer and boat docks and boats. But it is something that brings to my attention that about having a dock master and I don't know when that presentation and how we'll be managing the city dock moving forward. So two things. We have a pigeon issue. I'm not sure we have the management that can agree to address it. So I know first I know but it's a concern. So we've had it before. I can talk to you in detail. I just wanted to make sure I brought it up in public. And then I think we have, are we going to have a conversation about the peer Wednesday? And it's not on the schedule, but we can have a conversation. I think I'm going to need a consensus to have a discussion about it. And that's why I was so adamant today about the beach ends and people understanding what's happening because now there is a large group concern of the expansion of the concession stand. And we can talk about it, but there's no expansion of the concession stand. And- Yeah, we can talk about it, but there's no expansion of the concession stand. Well, I'll send you all some information in advance. It's just a relocation that was forced upon us. I understand that, but there are some details I did not see that we'll talk about it tomorrow on our meeting so that we can have that discussion because I don't I don't want this to go without being discussed before our break but we have a CRA meeting that was approximately going to be at three o'clock we're at 503 we need to take at least 10 minutes to change over and go into our CRA meeting so did you have comments Mr. Booter? I can skip. I was going to talk about this historic rainfall event last week. There's been a lot of communications that we've received. And I just wanted to talk about it for a second, because I need to impress upon you all and the public that we were spared. And I'll explain why I say that. Last week, we received record rainfall and it was a volume of rainfall in a very short period of time that overwhelmed our drainage system in certain places and at certain times. And the saving grace for us was the fact that the tides cooperated. And I've got on your screen here, I want to show you something here, just to really put this in a perspective. So we were talking earlier about these backflow valves that shut down back up from the bay into our storm water system. So this little graphic that you're looking at here shows, oops, shows, you know, depiction of, let's say, a sea wall here, our storm drainage system. And what happens when we're in a King Tide situation, the elevation of the water exceeds the elevation of our outfall pipes. So water backs into those pipes, comes out of our drainage area or catch basins, and then floods the streets. So that's not what happened last week. Last week are high tide stayed below the asphalt pipes, so the water had some place to go. Now, I've tried to explain the volume of what we were dealing with in a context of your kitchen sink. You know, if you take a cup of water and pour it down your kitchen sink, it's gonna drain. If you take a five gallon bucket of water and pour it all down at the same time, it's going to take a second. That's what was happening in the field. We had the volume of rain in some areas. It was like four inches in one hour. You would need subway size drainage pipes to move that kind of water. Of course, that's an irresponsible design to do. So what we experienced obviously is an anomaly. What I wanted to show you was a worst case scenario. The next slide. If we had king tides in the areas where we have these backflow flaps in place, and this is depicting, it would stop that water from pushing back into our system, but the rain would come from above, and that water would have nowhere to go. So in the areas where these valves would shut off the backflow, we would see an accumulation of water. So my point of bringing this up isn't to scare anyone, but to advise that we will be monitoring throughout this season what's happening in terms of storm systems. And this was a little pressure system that moved through, but it wasn't a hurricane. It wasn't a tropical depression. It was heavy, heavy rain. In fact, I think the amount of rainfall we experienced last week was at least three times the amount of rain that we received during EIN. So we're watching the systems. There's two low pressure systems right now, Atlantic Basin. One is over the Yucatan, the Bay of Kempichi, to be specific that we're watching. That has a 70% chance of developing. It looks like it has a Westerny, Northwesterny track at this point, but you never know what can happen. The other one is over the Bahamas. It has a very low percentage of developing, but it's creating weather. We're going to have rain. So we will be watching, as we always do, we're always monitoring. But I thought that this event last week, we'd be remiss if we didn't talk for a second. And I want to thank our staff. We had police and fire out 24-7 putting up barricades. And we were working with the DOT to shut down certain lanes that had low water area. And then our public work staff, they were cleaning catch basins in preparation for the storm and cleaning basins and moving debris as fast as they could throughout this event. This was pretty significant. I do not know of any homes in our entire community that had water get into it. We're aware of one business that had a little bit of water intrusion. Our friends on the east Coast, they were neighborhoods wiped out with water in their homes. So all things aside, I think we fear really well considering what could have happened under other conditions. I just wanted to point that out to you all. And that was it. Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad you touched base on that because it was overwhelming at the despair that the community had on whether we were taking care of our infrastructure or not. And I do know that there were just certain circumstances and when the governor declared that there's an emergency and informed us that this whole area was going to be under potential emergency. So I thank you for that and I thank you for the quick response and to some things we could not even address. So all right with that we will take a ten minute break and go into our CRA meeting. Thank you, Council. Thank you, staff. you you