Town of Melbourne Beach  SPECIAL1 TOWN COMMISSION MEETING  WEDNESDAY, JUNE3, 2020 = 6:00 PM COMMUNITY CENTER, 509 OCEAN AVENUE  MINUTES  The Town Commission conducted a SPECIAL TOWN COMMISSION meeting on Wednesday, June 3, 2020 in the COMMUNITY CENTERto  address the items below.  Commission Members: Mayor Jim Simmons Vice Mayor Wyatt Hoover Commissioner Steve Walters Commissioner Sherrie Quarrie Commissioner Corey Runte Staff fMembers:  Town Manager Elizabeth Mascaro Interim Town Clerk Jennifer Torres Town Attorney Clifford Repperger  1    I.  Call to Order - Led by Mayor Simmons Mayor Simmons called the meeting to order at 6:00 p.m.  Mayor Simmons explained that the meeting would bel handled significantly differently, especially as far as public comment goes. He read thej procedures that Mayor Simmons indicated that this was a Special Town Commission meeting scheduled to go overi items not addressed during the May RTCM.  were: included at thel beginning ofthe agenda.  II. Roll Call  Interim Town Clerk Torres conducted roll call.  Commissioners Present: Mayor Jim Simmons Vice Mayor Wyatt Hoover Commissioner Steve Walters Commissioner Sherri Quarrie Commissioner Corey Runte Staff Present: Town Manager Elizabeth Mascaro Interim Town Clerk Jennifer Torres Town Attorney Clifford Repperger  III. Pledge ofAllegiance and Moment of Silence  Led by Mayor Simmons IV. Presentations  None  V. Public Comment  None  VI. Old Business  A. Discuss plan of action regarding beach access parking - Commissioner Quarrie  Commissioner Quarrie said that although this issue was previously discussed at the May RTCM, she wanted to clarify what areas the Commission covered and in  2    particular what they voted on. She asked Town Clerk Torres to retrieve the May While Town Clerk Torres excused herself to collect them, Commissioner Quarrie said another area not really discussed was all the new development going on in Melbourne and Palm Bay and how that will affect parking and traffic conditions in Melbourne Beach. Then she suggested the Commission move to the next item on the agenda until the Town Clerk returned with the requested information. Mayor Simmons asked if everyone was in favor of moving on to item B - and the  RTCM minutes to determine this.  Commission unanimously agreed.  B. Discussion regarding Commission Communication Guidelines - Town Manager  Mascaro  Town Manager Mascaro said this item was in response to a message she received from Vice Mayor Hoover in which he expressed some concern that emails sent by Town Staff and Commission members could violate Sunshine Laws. Specifically, he had concerns about hitting the "reply all" button and also in regard to issues discussed via email that may come up before the Commission. He suggested that members of the Commission direct any communication not had in meeting through the Town Manager or the Town Clerk and that the Town He went on to say that Melbourne Beach is one of very few municipalities that do not have an existing social media policy and suggested that the Town create Facebook pages for each Commission office - Commissioner 1, Commissioner 2, 3, and 4 - and one: for Mayor. Whoever is in office has the use oft that account during their time in office and once they leave office the account goes to the next voted in - with all accounts controlled and owned by the Town - sO the' Town can Town Manager Mascaro explained that the Town contracted with a company called "Archive Social" that archives all Town, Fire Department and Police Department Facebook pages and posts, as well as the agency account the Town The program can archive information from any account when it's given permission. Vice Mayor Hoover said he was concerned about privacy issues related to connecting a Commission account to his own private account. Town Manager Mascaro agreed with his prior suggestion that the Town could create fresh accounts for use by active Commission members that are not tied to  develop a policy that specifically illustrates this.  easily archive and address public record requests.  recently opened on Nextdoor.  personal accounts.  3    Vice Mayor Hoover said he would also like to see a social media policy for Town staffin general that regulates comments and posts because he feels the' Town Town Manager Mascaro said that unified posting among Town staffi is currently Mayor Simmons stated that the two new: action items from this issue are;  needs one unified voice.  an unwritten policy they carefully adhere to.  Develop a' Town social media policy  Establish a Facebook Page for each Commission officet that is managed by the' Town and available tot the currently elected official ift they choose to  usei it.  The Commission was in unanimous consensus to add these two action items. Mayor Simmons closed the conversation by encouraging everyone to never "reply Town Clerk' Torres returned with the RTCM minutes from May 20, 2020 and  all" in an email.  Mayor Simmons returned the conversation to item A.  A. Discuss plan of action regarding beach access parking Commissioner Quarrie Town Clerk Torres proceeded to read the sections oft the minutes where the Commission voted during the May 20, 2020 RTCM on thej parking issues as  follows:  Vice Mayor Hoover moved to ask' Town Manager Mascaro to come back with aj proposal for stickers ini the' Town of Melbourne Beach known as the "Golden Triangle" at no cost to residents; Commissioner Quarrie seconded; Motion carried 4-1 with Commissioner Walters in dissent. Commissioner Quarrie moved to make crossovers "resident-only" with free decals at the crossovers; Motion died for lack ofa a second. Vice Mayor Hoover moved to ask the Town Manager to present a proposal for decal-only parking at end ofs street parking beach accesses for residents with a limited number available to guests; Commissioner Runte seconded;  Vice Mayor Hoover withdrew his motion  Commissioner Quarrie moved to have resident-only parking on crossovers byp permit; Commissioner Runte seconded; Motion carried 3-2 with Vice Commissioner Quarrie moved tol have the Town Manager get a proposal for paid parking in Ocean Park with budget costs including the potential  Mayor Hoover and Commissioner Walters dissenting.  4    effect on the police department: Vice Mayor Hoover seconded; Motion After Town Clerk Torres was finished reading from the prior minutes, Mayor Simmons summarized that the only thing they firmly agreed on is resident- only parking at the end of the street accesses - and added that after some Mayor Simmons said he's concerned that some members of the Commission indicated an interest in issuing visitor parking passes in this area as well - and he is against this. He feels visitor passes will make enforcement much more difficult and put a lot of pressure on the police and emphasized that he would ratherle leave the few end-of-street parking areas for first-come first-serve, Commissioner Quarrie said requiring residents to pay for parking at Ocean Park was a bitter pill for many residents to swallow and end ofs street parking for residents eliminates some of that burden. She said most residents arein favor ofincreased police presence and feel that visitors can go to Ocean Park. She emphasized that the goal is to make it more convenient for residents and Mayor Simmons said his response was only in regard to selling visitor parking Commissioner Quarrie said she was noti in favor of selling visitor parking passes = to which Mayor Simmons replied -1 ifthat's the case -he has no issue. He then proceeded to ask the rest of the Commission how they felt. Commissioner Walters said street ends should be for residents only and ifa non-resident parks there they should be ticketed. He suggested a sign that Mayor Simmons said he only considered changing his vote because he thought there were several members oft the Commission that wanted to sell Vice Mayor Hoover said the genesis of this was concern over people parking on each other's yards ati the end ofs street accesses and visitor parking decals was a discussion that came out of] limiting the visitor parking there. He went on to say that Ocean Park is a different conversation and the focus now should be on solving the problem that exists. He suggested creating resident-only parking on the streets now and then be prepared to address any issues that may arise on end of street crossovers down the road in 2-3 months' time. Commissioner Quarrie said if crossovers are not full of visitors (non- residents) then the residents won't be parking in front of each other's homes  carried 4-1 with Commissioner Walters dissenting.  thought- he may have changed his mind on that issue.  rather than sell visitor passes.  offer them areas where they can park for free.  passes.  says resident parking only at the street ends.  visitor passes/decals at the streets ends.  5    to go to the beach - they will be parking at crossovers and guests can park at Commissioner Runte said he's been involved with downtown Melbourne parking issues for years and in Melbourne Beach he feels the solution has to be a comprehensive parking management program. He added that the Town did a parking survey, received resident feedback, and now the Commission Commissioner Runte said the expected population growth in Florida is huge and ifv we don'taddress parking issues now-it'sg going to get much worse in Mayor Simmons reiterated that his initial response was only based on the fact that he thought some members oft the Commission wanted to sell visitor Commissioner Walters said although he is against paid parking, he feels ifthe Town is going to doit - they need to include Ryckman Park because most He went on to say he would rather see no visitor parking passes then to see them open parking at the end of streets. Instead they can pay and park at Mayor Simmons stated that if they are not considering non-resident decals - Town Manager Mascaro asked the Commission to clarify exactly what streets Mayor Simmons said he would rather workshop it and come up with a total Commissioner Quarrie said the workshop is about designing the decals - and what kiosk vendor's offer and she feels they need to take a vote now on the Mayor Simons said we also need to decide ifwe are issuing decals annually or for another term, as well as how many are issued and howi they are issued. Commissioner Runte said all residents should receive a free decal for each car  Ocean Park.  needs to implement their wishes.  10-15years.  passes and if that isn't the case - his vote stands.  people using the pier are not from here.  Ocean Park. he is onboard. will be impacted. plan.  specifics of resident and non-resident parking.  they own.  6    Public Comment  Donna Romano 710Atlantic Street  Ms. Romano said she doesn'tunderstand why they have to have parking on the streets at all. She also stated that she would like the no-parking signs currently erected to remain and wants to know why the Town would Mayor Simmons responded by saying that the streets belong to everyone and people are already allowed to park in front of residential homes including his own. He went on to say that permitting no-parking signs in one: area would be unfairt to another although he would consider a sign that said: Resident-only, No-parking on the grass. Vice Mayor Hoover added that if a resident has al birthday party = the resident can park on the street and have any guest's park in driveway. Ms. Romano said that when the signs were put up - they were not for "no Mayor Simmons said the streets are public streets, paid for by the residents, and with only 42 spots there are; 3,300 residents and we would bel keeping them out oftheir own beach. He said what they are trying to do ist tos solve thei issue of non-residents taking up all the spots.  want toi remove them.  parking but for no "beach" parking.  Kimberlie. Eidenire 203 Surf Road  Ms. Eidenire said she called and asked to have some no parking signs placed on Surf Road' because currently people park in her yard and she has had sprinkler heads broken. She went on to say that she's had this problem since thes signs went up in other areas and that it's not the residents doing  it-it its people from out ofTown.  Greg. Romano 710Atlantic Street  Mr. Romano said they don't want to make thei rules difficult to understand and feels thati if the Town has resident-only parking - there are enough spots for visitors toj park already and non-resident parking decals would be Commissioner Quarrie motioned to institute paid parking at Ocean Avenue Park; Commissioner Runte seconded;  al bad idea.  7    Commissioner Walters said he would like to amend the motion to include the first parking spot at the west end of Circle to Ryckman Park to the river because there is too much vandalism going on in that area from non- residents = and believes that maybe ifthey have to pay to park they won't stay there - adding they have already broken many lights. Public Works Supervisor Davis said the current cost to replace is a light there is $43 and they just spent $539 to repair several. Mayor Simmons asked ifthey could separate that motion because Ryckman will be free to residents with a decal and Ocean Park will be paid  parking.  Commissioner Walters agreed. Motion carries5-0.  Mayor Simmons asked ift there was any discussion related to - resident- only parking on one side of the street only - and -aj prohibition of parking Commissioner Quarrie asked if they could we go back to what she wrote about the no parking signs east of Oak on Gemini to remain in place - she Mayor Simmons said of course they are happy - but the residents who do not have those signs will not be - and he would not vote for that. Commissioner Quarrie said the input she received was also to have the area where there are currently no parking signs - as resident-only parking -and another suggestion was a sign that said no beach parking. Vice Mayor Hoover said the main problem is the area north of Ocean Avenue and east of A1A and so he would be in favor of resident-only Commissioner Runte asked what would happen ifa a resident has a party Town Manager Mascaro said the Police Chief said unless there is an issue with noise or unruly behavior - they would not respond to incidents like this because they knowi it's an isolated event. She suggested that residents could even inform the Police Department in advance of these events. Mayor Simmons said he feels that with resident-only parking, residents will police the area themselves and if someone has a party - the neighbors  on the grass.  said residents there were happy with those signs.  parking in that area only.  and guests park out in front of their home.  8    will be aware of that - and reiterated that he is opposed to having no Mayor Simmons said the idea behind parking on one side of the street only along with a prohibition against parking on the grass = isi important because ift there is parking on both sides of the street, people will be forced top park on the grass in order for through traffic - and some emergency Commissioner Walters asked what they should do about landscapers, delivery people, etc. who may need to temporarily park in a resident-only Commissioner Quarrie said those are more like "standing" vehicles" Commissioner Runte said he believes that temporary parking for use asa loading zone etc. are recognizable as such and would be permitted. Vice Mayor Hoover moved to create resident-onlystreet. parking by decal in the area north ofOcean Avenue and east ofA1A; Commissioner Quarrie seconded: Motion carried 5-0. Town Manager Mascaro asked what the new posted signs will say. Mayor Simmons responded it will say - Resident Only Parking - No Commissioner Quarrie moved to create resident-onlyparking from 1st though Surf,south of Ocean, east of Orange and Cherry, and east of Redwood, on one side of the street only, with no Vice Mayor Hoover asked how they will decide what side of street  parking on the streets.  vehicles may not be ablei to pass through at all.  zone.  Parking on Grass.  parking on grass; residents can park on.  Mayor Simmons said they would need to discuss that in the workshop but there is a proposal to switch sides on different days of the week. Several Commissioners did not like this idea and further discussion Town Manager Mascaro said it's very common to have street parking limited to just one side of the street up north because streets can't accommodate parking on both sides. She said it may sound burdensome  ensued.  but it's not really.  9    Motion died forlack cofasecond.  Town Manager Mascaro asked for a Commission consensus about the no parking signs in that area -as to whether to leave them or remove them. Vice Mayor Hoover said he's sticking to his position that they should not Mayor Simmons asked for opinions on the signs and the Commission agreed bya3-2 consensus to remove the no parking signs with Commissioner Quarrie and Commissioner Walters of the opinion the Commissioner Walters moved that parking from the west end of Circle Driveway, across Ryckman Park, all the way to the pier be kiosk paid parking with no charge for residents with a decal; Commissioner Quarrie said she would like to amend the motion to include free parking on the evenings there are meetings for both residents and Commissioner Walters agreed and also wanted to include a free spot for  prohibit resident parking anywhere in Town.  current signs should remain.  non-residents. electricvehicles.  Commissioner Quarrie seconded;  Commissioner Runte asked if there would there be any fee exceptions for Town Manager Mascaro said they are able to address that and can set any price parameters on the kiosks that they want - they can change the fee or  special events or holidays.  eliminate it on certain days and times.  Motion carries5-0.  Public comment  Adam Meyer 214 Surf Road  Mr. Meyer said his issue is that he doesn't want to have to pay for a decal and didn't want to buy a permit or pass anytime a guest comes over. Vice Mayor Hoover asked ifthe Town Manager could reach out to the residents on the parking survey who voted against resident-only parking  10    and ask them if they would change their mind once they hear what the Town Manager Mascaro asked ift the Commission was directing her to do Public Works Supervisor asked ift they should take the no parking signs down and Mayor Simmons said they should leave the no parking signs in  Commission is proposing on other streets. this - and received no response.  place until we get the new signs in.  B. Discussion and consideration ofincreasing the current $35 parking ticket fee-  Town Manager Mascaro (1:24:45)  Town Manager Mascaro said that after several discussions with the Police Chief about the ineffective deterrence oft the current $35 parking fine. They agreed that many non-residents consider it a bargain to park at thel beach all day for $35. To create more ofa deterrent, she felt the' Town should consider raising the amount ofthe fine. She went on to say that ChiefGriswold recommended a $10 increase but the' Town Manager felt the amount should bel higher to provide a bigger Commissioner Walters said he would like to keep thei fine reasonable because the higher the fine thei more likely they may go to court to contest it. He suggested Commissioner Runte agreed raising thei finei is in order and suggested between Vicel Mayor Hoover and Commissioner Quarrie both thought $50 was reasonable. There was some discussion about thei fact that after 30 days - ift the ticket is not paid - the DMV escalates the fine and may eventually suspend the driver's  deterrent.  raising it to $50. $50 and $65.  license. Public comment Frank Thomas 606Atlantic Street  Mr. Thomas said he appreciates the no parking signs. Hei thinks they are the best Vice Mayor Hoover moved to increase the parking ticket fine from $35to $50 followed by standard escalation through the DMVafter30  thing that's happened and doesn'tv want them to go away.  daysofr nonpayment, with a ten day grace period;  11    Town Manager Mascaro said she's not sure the Town can dictate a grace period Vice Mayor Hoover moved to increase the parking ticket fine from $35t to $50 followed by standard escalation after 30 days ofnon- payment as dictated by the DMV: Commissioner Runte seconded; C. Consideration of the First Amendment to the Restated Interlocal Agreement for Creation of the Transportation Planning Organization - Space Coast Transportation Discussion ensued to clarify that the Town has the right to have a seat on the SCTPO board and not the other way around. Further review clarified this was Commissioner Quarrie moved to accept the First Amendment tothe Restated Interlocal Agreement for Creation ofthe Transportation Planning Organization: Vice Mayor Hoover seconded; Motion carried  because that is up toi the DMV.  Motion carried5-0.  Planning Organization (1:38:09)  indeed the case.  5-0.  VII. Staff Reports (1:41:30) A. Town Attorney Report  Mayor Simmons asked the Town Attorney about the Code Enforcement Magistrate item - and Town Attorney Repperger said he was working on it.  B. Town Manager Report  Mayor Simmons commented on the recent car wrap competition the police department participated in for the Puzzle Box Academy - saying the department Mayor Simmons also acknowledged what a great job he thinks Town staffis Town Manager Mascaro said the pandemic gave the staff an opportunity to come Vice Mayor Hoover commented that he had the opportunity to meet the Town's new. Administrative Assistant, Katie Cox and said he has noticed an increase in Mayor Simmons said from top to bottom this is thel best staffhe's ever worked with - every single one- and added that there is no weak link - he congratulated  did a great job. doing.  together as group and they deserve tremendous credit.  social media frequency and the quality of posts.  the staff.  12    Commissioner Quarrie said it was a job well done.  Commissioner Walters queried about the police patrol vehicles - saying he passed by the parking lot on Sunday and didn't: see any vehicles there. Town Manager Mascaro said there was an extra officer on duty that day but operations were normal and was not aware of any incidents with the vehicles. She said she would follow up with the Police Chief to confirm this and update the Town Manager Mascaro said the Florida League of Cities Interlocal agreement needs to be signed by the Mayor sO the Town can receive reimbursement for The Town Attorney added that the funding comes from the CARES Act and the Town Manager will be listed as the representative in the agreement. Vice Mayor Hoover moved to approve signing the Interlocal Agreement for CARES Act funding: Commissioner Quarrieseconded:  Commission if there was more information to share.  COVID-19 expenses.  Motion passed 5-0.  C. Town Clerk Report  Town Clerk Torres said that as part ofthe agenda package she included a report on monthly public communication with staff and a list of public record requests. She also mentioned that the second online issue oft the Town magazine went out  in June to continued positive response. The Commission said the reports were helpful.  Commissioner Walters asked ift the Town could buy more microphones sO Mayor Simmons suggested talking about that during the budget meeting.  everyone can be heard. He suggested lapel microphones.  D. Departmental Reports  1. Building Department  Commissioner Quarrie asked for an update on the Hibiscus drain/swale that was covered up = and discussed at the May RTCM. Town Manager Mascaro said action has been taken and it will be reviewed by the engineer with an update once his report is received. She added they did find out the next door neighbor also filled in their swale and they would be contacted for further discussion.  13    Commissioner Runte asked about the Building Official and clarified that Mark left and Rob - whol has worked for the Town before - took his place. Town Manager Mascaro said that when Rob worked for us before he was employed by the' Town, but now hei is an employee of SAFEbuilt so there are checks and balances in place unlike when he was on staff fand had more authority. Now) he reports to a SAFEbuilt supervisor. She went on to say that Wednesdays are covered by Ken SO the Town still has two people and they are both great.  2. Public Works Department  Public Works Supervisor said the swale his department built is doing well. He reported that he and the Town Manager went out in a storm and detected at least three different intersections where they corrected standing water issues. He said they are: really happy with it and in thel long run he feels the' Town will be a Town Manager Mascaro added that she was asked to: speak at a symposium in Orlando with several people vying for the same spot - an indication that many people are impressed by the work the Town has done in this area. Vice Mayor Hoover asked Public Works Supervisor Davis ifl he is concerned about long-term gradual intrusion on the swales and wondered if! he could pour in any PWS Davis said they could try that but he was advised to leave the natural growth ini there because in less than a minute any water collected is gone and ift they hit Commissioner Walters expressed his thanks to Public Works for their hard work.  cutting-edge model for others to: follow.  concrete.  that percolation rate the sky is the limit.  3. Code Enforcement Report  The format of the report was discussed and the Town Manager indicated the reports are being edited and reformatted tol be ADA compliant.  4. Police Department Report - No comments 5. Firel Department Report - No comments 6.1 Finance Department Report  Vice Mayor Hoover moved to approve the May Finance Report; Commissioner Quarrie seconded; Motion carried 4-1 with  Commissioner Walteri in dissent.  14    VII. Town Commission Comments A. General comments  Mayor Simmons said hel had three things to report. First, that FPLi is very worried this year about staging equipment and service people due to the effects of COVID. What would take two days to recover after a storm - may now take two weeks. He said FPL has advised communities and residents to plan ahead because it will be alonger recovery wait time from FPL, sO stock up on canned goods, hurricane supplies, etc. The Mayor asked that this information be added to social media and Ini regard to emergency operations, the Mayor said beachside towns are opposed tot the political direction the EOS has taken without Kimberly Prosser in charge. He said there is an effort to combine efforts and opinions with other beach Lastly, the Mayor asked when they were, going to start budget meetings. Town Manager Mascaro said she was ready to give the Commission aj package within two weeks and Mayor Simmons suggested that thei first Town Commission  the' Town Magazine.  communities sO we can present a unified front.  Budget Workshop is held on June 24th, 2020at5p.m.  B. Review of Commission Action List  New Items  The Commission directed the' Town to create a Social media policy - Due The Commission directed the' Town to establish official Commission  date: August RTCM Facebook pages Due Date: August RTCM Vacation Rental Ordinance Bicentennial Park swale Oak trees dying on Oak Street Capital items spreadsheets Comp plan upgrade HR: Policy for social media retention  Closed Items  Updates  FDOT traffic light stanchions - FDOT request submitted. Move to August ADAcompliance - Town Clerk Torres explained that this is a long-term project that requires staff and commission training. Progress is being  RTCM.  15    made to make the minutes ADA compliant sO they can be posted on the website: Clerk will update progress again at. July RTCM. EAB projects: Town Manager said EAB discussed projects at their last meeting and thel list willl be presented at June RTCM Stormwater Master Plan - Town Manager said this project is completed Employee six month evaluations - Moved to July RTCM for First Reading Town Manager evaluation - Twol have been received - Mayor asked to Street paving and repaving plan - Town Manager Mascaro said she received both plans and there were a few differences. She said thel biggest issue is Orange. Ift the' Town redoes the whole thing, including resurfacing and regrading, with Miami drains and swales - it would be around $700,000 for. .71 mile. Town Mascaro said normally they put aside $100,000 a year fort this work. Mayor Simmons said they need to discuss this issue during thel budget workshops. He went on to say that thel bigger issue is what are we, going to do next year and the next, and SO on. He said we should have a 20 year plan and that plan needs to be laid out to indicate which streets are done and which years they are done - and once we are done, it repeats. Vice Mayor Hoover added that he thinks we need to create five zones-decide what those zones are and it will take some time to adjust where we are going- but in 10-15years we can say in 2040 we are going to do Zone 1, etc. The' Town Manager said thei initial idea was to do Riverside when Indialantic did it - to piggyback on the repairs - but they are not planning tol begin those repairs anytime soon. Mayor Simmons said hel hasn't: seen any plan and the action item is to see the 20- year plan. Commissioner Runte said that practically speaking, this is an investment in an efficient and long term plan -but in reality they are going tol be hodgepodge plans for a few years while they put more: money away. Vice Mayor Hoover also pointed out that roads are unequally used - for example while Pine and Orange may need to be redone every ten years, Poinsettia can be done every 25. Vice Mayor Hoover said we are basically creating a plan fori the long term but wei may need to deviate from it. He suggested a set of guidelines for the next ten years. Mayor Simmons stated that] he wants to see a plan that indicates next steps. Town Manager Mascaro said she will present the plan she and PWS Davis created at the  and will present plan at. June RTCM  have them turned in by. June.  June RTCM.  Beach Access parking - will be discussed at. June RTCM Charging S stations - will be discussed at the June RTCM.  16    Code Enforcement Magistrate - Town Attorney will prepare item for first  reading at July RTCM.  IX. Adjournment  The meeting adjourned at 8:53 P.M.  ATTEST:  Jennifer  Town Clerk  Simmons, Mayor  Mee  5  17